GBTC Stock vs Owning Bitcoin (What's the Difference?)

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  • Опубліковано 26 гру 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 103

  • @RhettReisman
    @RhettReisman  2 роки тому +12

    What do you guys think of GBTC? Anyone think it's crazy that the spot ETF still hasn't been approved?

    • @user-hn9fr7mn3x
      @user-hn9fr7mn3x 11 місяців тому +1

      It’s been approved now and everything is going to shit

    • @chrisledford9291
      @chrisledford9291 11 місяців тому

      I have GBTC shares in my coin base wallet, bought through coin base wallet. How do I move them to my Ameritrade account or how can I sell them.

  • @skrull9885
    @skrull9885 2 роки тому +8

    Literally the only channel I sub to where I get excited when I see a new video pop up.

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому

      Skrull if this channel ever gets big enough I’m going to give you merch in a “random” giveaway

  • @HarlandDWhite
    @HarlandDWhite 2 роки тому +5

    Informational as always. Clarified my understanding of how the discount on GBTC occurs.

  • @citizenpunx
    @citizenpunx 2 роки тому +7

    I’m sitting on a fair bit of GBTC and ETHE in a Roth IRA, I bought both when trading ~20% discount to NAV. Almost all my actual crypto is in cold storage, but I am taking advantage of this opportunity for tax free gains in a retirement account and believe GBTC will eventually convert

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому +2

      Yeah exactly. If you think it will convert it’s a no brainer imo

    • @di114n2
      @di114n2 2 роки тому

      Convert ?

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому +2

      Convert to an ETF

    • @di114n2
      @di114n2 2 роки тому

      @@RhettReisman ahh I see thanks

    • @citizenpunx
      @citizenpunx 2 роки тому

      @@RhettReisman we’ll know here soon! Hoping Gary gets his sh*t together

  • @joeyp978
    @joeyp978 2 роки тому +4

    I was super curious about this. Thank you very much. Very informative video! Subbed

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому

      Welcome aboard 🚀 glad to help 😁

  • @denneyhoward417
    @denneyhoward417 2 роки тому

    Thanks!

  • @adamstokes
    @adamstokes 8 місяців тому

    This was really helpful - thank you

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  8 місяців тому

      Cheers Adam lmk if there’s any other topics you’d like to see me cover

  • @heinzbucksandcastle2053
    @heinzbucksandcastle2053 11 місяців тому +1

    Great video. There are times when you can buy at a discount or sell at the premium, personally I really trust this fund. They should get ETF approval very shortly.

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  11 місяців тому

      Happy to help - I agree wrt the etf approval

  • @CaseyCassity
    @CaseyCassity 2 роки тому +7

    I will send a pic of my GBTC balance to ol Nassim after 8/1/22. Bookmark this. We are right about this one.

  • @Maximus.diamond.hands.
    @Maximus.diamond.hands. 2 роки тому

    super informative perfectly explained

  • @jackshrader4161
    @jackshrader4161 2 роки тому

    Don't forget to add that 2% management fee year after year after year. Adds up.

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому

      Yeah 100%. GBTC looking worse and worse all the time

    • @worldtrav72
      @worldtrav72 Рік тому

      Yep, not a long term hold, but thinking it’s a good way to get exposure in my IRAs in this year before halving.

  • @chrisledford9291
    @chrisledford9291 11 місяців тому

    I have shares of gbtc in my coinbase wallet which I bought through my coinbase wallet. I am a novice at this, just dabble in crypto when i can. How do i sell my shares or move them to my Ameritrade account so i can sell them. Any help is appreciated

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  10 місяців тому

      I'm not sure how you have shares of GBTC in a coinbase wallet. I don't think Coinbase Wallet can hold ETFs

  • @marty590
    @marty590 2 роки тому +2

    Why doesn't GBTC cut their fee to 50bps? That would reduce the discount while we are waiting for the SEC.

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому

      Good question, I guess some people are selling though because they don’t want to pay the 2% fee.
      Not sure it would reduce the discount significantly though if people fundamentally don’t believe it will ever convert to an ETF.
      Probably in grayscales best interest o just scoop up that 2% idk though. Interesting podcast came out this morning with Castle Island and some guys from Grayscale (linked in description). Seems like they’re trying really hard to convert to etf

  • @hex_army
    @hex_army 2 роки тому +1

    Very good video.
    Thank you .

  • @et_phonehome_2822
    @et_phonehome_2822 Рік тому

    How does one know if it’s trading at a discount or premium?

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  Рік тому +1

      Added a link in the description: ycharts.com/companies/GBTC/discount_or_premium_to_nav

  • @ace198999
    @ace198999 Рік тому

    So thankyou but confused on some points
    How is the gbtc not technically a scam?
    And by what you’re saying in buying gbtc when the etf gets approved this would sky rocket right?

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  Рік тому

      Closed end funds are legitimate financial products that have been around for decades. Not sure who is saying it’s a scam, seems like obviously **not** a scam. It doesn’t track the price of BTC-USD 1 for 1 but that doesn’t make it a scam.
      The discount will close from whatever it’s at now to 0 (I think as of this comment it would be ~15% gain). You can view the discount as how likely the market thinks an ETF will not be approved. As that number shrinks the market is telling you and ETF will be approved (which is what is happening)

  • @krisztian007
    @krisztian007 Рік тому

    Assuming GBTC converts to an ETF in January, and Blackrock gets approved amongst others, is there any risk with GBTC not being competitive or the price dipping due to capital outflows to the other ETF's? I ask because if GBTC is an ETF, doesn't it have to track the price of Bitcoin meaning if Bitcoin rises so will GBTC regardless of competition. Trying to understand if I should sell GBTC now while I am ahead and reinvest in the best ETF when it gets approved.

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  Рік тому +1

      If GBTC doesn’t convert to an ETF GBTC (and the market thinks it never will) it could crash like you’re saying.
      The market and all the news is pointing to GBTC converting to an ETF and tracking the price of BTC alongside Blackrock and others

  • @CarAudioInc
    @CarAudioInc 2 роки тому

    good stuff! I'm sure you have better ideas but I'd love a video on looking into bitcoin defi like sovryn, regardless keep em coming! 🙏

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому

      Will add Soveryn video to the backlog :)

  • @kansasplowboy6861
    @kansasplowboy6861 2 роки тому

    Glad I found your channel. If GBTC does become an ETF is this going to be great news for ETHE and ETCG? When ETH rolls out 2.0 is this also going to be big boost for ETCG? I looked up NAV like you suggested and ETCG is trading at a whopping 58% discount! Thank you very much for your time Rhett!

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому +1

      Cheers :)
      I don’t think a spot Bitcoin etf would mean anything for a spot ETH etf. Gary Gensler doesn’t view BTC and ETH as the same. If ETH 2.0 ever comes out maybe it will be helpful for the ETH price but it might also tank the ETH price since all those locked up coins on the beacon chain will be part of the market again - bottom line no one can predict what price is going to do long term.
      58% discount seems dangerous

  • @notrend
    @notrend 2 роки тому

    Nice video. I don't want to deal with the whole walet thing so I'm looking at GBTC but is GBTC a good long play?

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому

      There’s risk in every investment. GBTC has risks that BTC doesn’t have. I’ll probably sell if it ever converts to a spot etf. But if you want exposure to btc without a wallet it’s one of the best ways to do that

  • @efremdedwards
    @efremdedwards 29 днів тому

    Grayscale Bitcoin Mini Trust ETF (BTC). is this a Spot trade?

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  27 днів тому

      Looks like it is spot yeah. Seems like it came out after all the other spot ETFs

  • @kansasplowboy6861
    @kansasplowboy6861 2 роки тому

    What kind of a discount is GBTC and ETHE at today May 2, 2022. Sorry I just now came across your video.

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому +1

      You can check the live GBTC discount at bitbo.io :) or by googling GBTC NAV discount

  • @DirtyBob154
    @DirtyBob154 2 роки тому +1

    When do you think the spot ETF will come out?

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому

      Maybe 2023, but don’t take my word for it haha just guessing. Making bets on government approving something is bad business imo haha

  • @mikeuchannel1019
    @mikeuchannel1019 2 роки тому

    What do you think about OBTC? It is pretty similar structure with lower expense ration at 1%. Personally, I'm surprised there isn't more spoken about this closed ended fund.

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому

      I honestly had never heard of it. Looking at it the fees definitely seem better but the net assets are like 40X lower - might be why people don't talk about it. If the biggest fund fails - think it's likely that all smaller funds also fail. Looks like OBTC hit discount faster than GBTC - likely also due to the smaller size.

  • @Ngutech
    @Ngutech 2 роки тому +2

    Rhett, you will earn a sub and many likes if you answer my comment. So the discount will disappear if converted to a spot ETF because the price would now be based on the value of the BTC held? Does it literally change overnight with conversion to spot? Just trying to get clear on what logistically happens.

    • @Ngutech
      @Ngutech 2 роки тому +1

      Does it mean GBTC would sell some of their coins until discount disappears and vice versa?

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому +1

      I answer every comment 🐐🚀🌙
      Yes, the gap should close right away and it would be valued based on what GBTC was holding - more importantly, any future buys and sells would cause GBTC to buy more and sell more underlying bitcoin so the gap could never appear again. The reason the discount/premium exists is the closed end fund structure, ETF doesn’t have this issue.

  • @reverentialrock
    @reverentialrock Рік тому

    So is it good or bad? I just read an article that said if you invested $10,000 into it seven years ago it would be worth $580,000!

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  Рік тому

      Doesn’t tell the whole story. Most people would argue owning spot BTC is better but it depends what your investing goals are.

  • @a.abrantes9596
    @a.abrantes9596 2 роки тому

    Nice video. Can greyscale plumb he the market? whit that discount ?

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому

      If they ever unwound the fund and market sold all their bitcoin it would super crash the market

    • @a.abrantes9596
      @a.abrantes9596 2 роки тому

      Theres a lot of chances that they do that. Thanks for your answer

  • @enteoz1694
    @enteoz1694 2 роки тому +1

    The SEC not letting holders redeem their GBTC shares for Bitcoin 1:1 is so evil, they don't care about protecting regular investors at all. It's crazy how far their manipulation and destructive practices go.

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому

      Totally agree. You can trace all this CeFi lending implosion BS back to GBTC arb which never would have existed if the SEC approved an ETF.

  • @nextari
    @nextari 2 роки тому

    Thanks! would have loved to hear about worst case scenario as I'm not intelligent enough to imagine what that would be. If you look at 2020, GBTC performed worse in every way than BTC. 10x from covid dip vs 16x for BTC. 80% pullback vs 75% pullback from ATH in Sept.

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому +1

      The worst case scenario is that the government never approves a BTC ETF and that grayscale goes out of business GBTC goes to 0 and they market sell all their coins on the open market (BTC investors would lose a lot of money because Grayscale market selling coins would wreck the market) but obviously GBTC investors would be even worse off.
      There’s no guarantee that GBTC tracks the price of BTC it’s just likely that the market will trade it as if it does because GBTC holds a lot of BTC so theoretically the underlying should be worth some amount. Right now it’s trading at a discount because investors don’t think a BTC spot ETF will be approved.

    • @nextari
      @nextari 2 роки тому

      @@RhettReisman Thanks Rhett, I'm considering GBTC for an IRA as buying crypto in an IRA is costly or risky, one or the other. Seems like if you buy during the depths of the bear market, you should turn out ok. But then what fools are buying during the bull market and prices well over NAV.

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому

      Yeah theoretically, but anything could happen. Definitely the people buying over NAV got wrecked in hindsight. Buying below NAV at -5% also got you wrecked now though that it’s -30%+ hopefully it recovers, but no guarantees

  • @LongEyeFinance
    @LongEyeFinance 11 місяців тому

    Dropping in from the future, after GBTC has been converted to an ETF and that discount has disappeared. Turns out you were not "dumb money" after all heh

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  11 місяців тому

      I am genius 🧠🧠🧠
      Taleb is a dumb

  • @hughw.
    @hughw. 11 місяців тому

    I'm in the future Jan 24. They may approve any day now.

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  11 місяців тому

      Member when Taleb called us dumb money - I member 🧠🧠🧠

  • @faitaccompli5878
    @faitaccompli5878 11 місяців тому

    I don't think it matters as long as you're able to capture the value of Bitcoin, people will still transact in their local currencies.

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  11 місяців тому

      It definitely mattered if you were buying GBTC at a 150% premium to NAV 🤷🏻‍♂️

    • @faitaccompli5878
      @faitaccompli5878 11 місяців тому

      @RhettReisman
      I'm speaking from a spot etf standpoint.

  • @HouseGuide
    @HouseGuide 11 місяців тому

    You and all others failed to explain how ETF approval would cause Bitcoin prices to go way down because gbtc holders would then immediately sell their Bitcoin.

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  11 місяців тому

      Wasn’t really the point of the video but IMO its pretty clear if you watch the video that if GBTC were converted to an ETF that sales of $GBTC would cause Grayscale to sell Bitcoin

  • @Gian-ni
    @Gian-ni Рік тому

    I think we are gonna see another drop in BTC, below 20.000$, then we'll see a BTC etf on the market, most likely it'll be Grayscale's BTC etf.

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  Рік тому

      We'll see. I think the ETF will be bearish in the short term.

  • @BeachSamuraiStudios
    @BeachSamuraiStudios 9 місяців тому

    Bought GBTC/IBIT/FBTC and the real thang……
    Sell all next year 🎉

  • @robinthegrape
    @robinthegrape 2 роки тому

    Seems logical that GBTC should be at a discount compared to the actual Bitcoin price because GBTC wouldn't be able to sell their BTC without sending the price down

  • @afrobian1
    @afrobian1 2 роки тому

    Thank you. You helped me stay away from gbtc I’ll put that money in btc instead 😂

  • @jaydubau8755
    @jaydubau8755 2 роки тому

    This sounds like people who buy precious metal ETFs. You don't actually own the asset you just own a percentage of the trust

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  2 роки тому +1

      Exactly! And it can trade away from the underlying value of the assets it holds because it’s not an ETF (no redemption mechanism) it’s a closed end fund.

  • @rmokofsky
    @rmokofsky Рік тому

    Ahhh now turning into EFTs

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  Рік тому

      Turns out I was right and Taleb was wrong 😎

  • @mvlenox8861
    @mvlenox8861 Рік тому

    Alternative Thoughts about GBTC
    Jawboning Our Way Back to NAV
    1. I signed up for the “Redeem GBTC” movement but now I have come to realize that I don’t necessarily want that. I simply want to “Repair GBTC”
    2. Closed-End Funds are supposed to have a fixed supply, often leading to a persistent premium for first movers like those who invested in GBTC.
    3. The problem is that there were provisions for GBTC to authorize new issuance to accredited investors, allowing for them to buy in at NAV and sell six months later.
    4. While intended to grow the total size of bitcoin taken off exchanges and placed in the trust (a good thing), the sponsor was likely unaware that the accredited investors were essentially given a limitless arbitrage opportunity. The effect of this practice was tantamount to the sponsor announcing that he would not tolerate a premium to persist. (Again, I assume unintentionally)
    5. I propose that this can be remedied quicker and with less expense than pursuing a costly legal battle at shareholder expense (sponsor has been quoted as saying he intends to lower the fees charged for sponsoring the fund after this costly legal battle is over and the fund has been authorized to convert to an ETF)
    Thesis: With very little effort (simply a meeting of the minds between the sponsor and shareholders regarding aspirations and goals), I believe we can have GBTC trading at a PREMIUM to NAV in no time.
    A) Let’s agree that the work this sponsor did to create such an innovation as GBTC has allowed the NAV under management to swell beyond even the most optimistic scenarios evisioned.
    B) Let’s agree about what we really want … we have no problem with a deviation from NAV in the direction that is actually deserved for GBTC investors, namely a return to persistent PREMIUM valuation. Let’s ask the sponsor to dedicate himself to this cause with a simple declaration in support of a return to persistent NAV-plus valuations, to wit:
    1 The period of time when new issuance of GBTC shares was offered is behind us. “There will never be another new share sold in this trust.” GBTC will be a fixed subset of the overall BTC market, one that has proven to be safely contained within Grayscale’s vaults for over a decade. The only larger cache kept safe for longer is the Satoshi wallet. GBTC is just as safe and will be even scarcer than Satoshi’s original bitcoins.
    2 We hold that this simple declaration (in bold) above removes fear of future dilution and opens the door for the market price to exceed NAV once again. This would be an easy declaration for the sponsor to make.
    3 To provide motivation to even a small subset of investors would be sufficient to immediately send market prices to NAV and keep the market price persistently well bid at that level, or higher. (We don’t need to actually redeem our shares in the fund. In fact, I can argue that so long as we create conditions which will effectively set a floor for market prices equivalent to NAV, the trust vehicle is SUPERIOR to an ETF.)
    4 One method of motivating investors to pay a premium would be to borrow from an idea once employed by the United States Treasury in their highly successful “Flower Bond” program, with slight modification.
    5 The GBTC twist on this age-old idea is this: If you knew you could place GBTC shares in a trust or your will and the sponsor would guarantee to provide your heirs the option to sell at the prevailing market price or redeem at NAV, it would provide an arbitrage incentive for any potential investor to aggressively buy up any shares that can be found at a discount. With proper estate planning, taxes can be minimized, but death in inevitable. People will literally be dying to buy your shares at current prices.
    Were I the sponsor, I would suspend current legal action which might be interpreted as proposing to force us to redeem our shares to effectuate conversion to an ETF. Then I would make the declaration about no future issuance for GBTC. Finally, I would voice support for identifying a mechanism to provide relief to charities or others who inherit shares in GBTC due to the death of a loved one. If I am correct, none would ever need avail themselves of the redemption option as it would be more beneficial to sell at the premium prices then offered in the open market.
    Why, you may ask, do I believe that these simple measures will bring market prices back to premium territory? It’s kind of like Newton’s third law. When a mechanism allowing hedge funds to essentially “arb out” any premium was introduced, yet no mechanism existed to limit the discount, the premium was depleted over time. Without taking that off the table, investors would not want to pay a premium again under the assumption that the process will be re-authorized by the trust sponsor.
    Indeed, significant discount compression should be expected if the sponsor ruled this out. And now, if there were to be introduced even this highly specific and limited option to authorize “empathetic redemption” (I prefer that to the sound of “hardship redemption”), the equal and opposite reaction should be expected. Rather than pushing us into discount territory, there would be an tendency to do the opposite.
    Sincerely Yours,
    Joshua Mandell
    (Disclosure: As of the time of this writing, July 3rd 2003, I own 406,000 shares of GBTC.)

    • @RhettReisman
      @RhettReisman  Рік тому +1

      This is probably the most in depth UA-cam comment I’ve ever gotten haha. I’ll have to study everything that’s in here 🤓
      Thanks for sharing!