You could not have laid out my frustration with modern SMBZ-like Sprite series any better. For the life of me, I never understood why they needed to copy ENTIRE SCENES AND PLOT BEATS. It’s so limiting and insulting to storytelling itself.
Being inspired is one thing ripping it off is another. Some people should just retell a saga of z/super or even fighterz with mario and Sonic rather than just make a clone of smbz
Every single sprite series *ever* that has aped SMBZ has never reached its conclusion. It's like watching the start of a movie over and over but never seeing anything beyond it.
And I hate it so much. There’s no end, just a beginning, leaving you on an endless cliffhanger when it’s canned. So why even bother making it in the first place if it’s just ripoff?
@@Lincfish10894TSThat's why people should start making soft sequels to sprite animations. Like if i knew how to animate (or was interested), I would make a sequel or continuation to Mega Sonic Bros AF, which is already a sequel to smbz.
I would like to see a pixel art community that starts to shy away from the SMBZ story format because, as you said, it's been done to death. There are so many more concepts for stories you can go with so whenever we get to a point where people will indulge those new stories, that will be a good day
I watched the whole video. I agree with what you said at the end. It's not surprising that that person basically prophesied the cancellation of SMBC. Even if it's a Mario and Sonic crossover, the main villain does NOT have to be Mecha Sonic.
I agree with having high pressure by making some kind of series with a style of video/animation that looks "simple". Which is not that simple when you get into it. To my experience with sprite animations, I canceled and rebooted an old series I've been on since 2017 (and I'm still in it today) due to a few issues like lacking ideas and also motivation, but there was also the idea of being presured by everyone asking "when episode next??", to this point I was affraid of taking too much time to make something as great as possible, but being dissapointed by the reality of people's losing interest in the series because "it took too long". Now that I'm a bit more mature now, I know how to handle that kind of stress, but I'm still not guaranteed of making performance once my series will be done, who knows. But at the difference here, is that I personally want to get through the end of the series I'm currently working on (which Team Sonic Adventures if you're interested ^^), but no matter how long it will take or if it will be a success, I take that as a benefic experience for me x) But still, people need to understand that it's not that easy, and people need to have a life behind all of this 😂 and I thank you for making this video because it was really interesting to see the curse of sprite animation series from this angle. :3
Hey, you're the dude that made the RvB "Short Term Memory Loss" video with Sonic characters. Nice to see you here. 😊 But to your point, yeah, animating must be pretty hard. I've never animated myself, but over the years, I've come to understand that even the simplest of animations take days if not weeks for just a few seconds of footage. That's why I'm always so fascinated when people find shortcuts to animating without sacrificing too much in quality.
You make a lot of good points. SMBZ was a very influential series, which is both a good… and a bad thing. It has helped inspired so many great and wonderful original sprite series and fights and without it, the sprite community wouldn’t be as big as it is now. However, it has also brought copycats and high expectations that every series will be as great as it and must follow the same beats and use the same sprites. This leads to clone series like SMBDX or series that get prematurely canceled due to the animator feeling burned out due to trying to live up to high expectations of the fan base. SMBZ will always be a great series, but due to its immense influence, it will always be brought into the conversation when a new sprite animation or series is introduced. Not every sprite series is going to be like or surpass SMBZ and that’s ok. I rather watch something more original and unique than something that tries to mimic SMBZ. (I’m looking at you SMBDX.) I rather encourage creativity than plagiarism. I apologize if my long winded tangent comes off as incoherent rambling but this is just my thoughts on the matter. I suppose it’s also interesting to note: I didn’t grow up watching the original SMBZ. I grew up with other Flash series’s like Sonic RPG.
In the past people would just retell the sayian saga with mario and Sonic characters then just clone smbz i feel people could do that and be done with it there's plenty of sagas to use
For years, growing up and watching so many terrible SMBZ ripoffs popping up left and right every couple of months, made me want to learn how to do sprite flash animations just so I could do something better and more original. I never ended up putting in that work, rather putting my talents to work on completely other things, but I always thought about how so many of these are terrible and struggle with such unorginality and bad storytelling. I had several basic premises I thought of, like doing more of a "band of heroes" from other games more like the Justice League that try to correct events from other game worlds from their timelines diverging into dangerous paths, or maybe taking more underrated anime at the time than DBZ and trying to infuse game crossovers with a tonal shift more reserved for inspirations like Fullmetal Alchemist or The Slayers or something like that. There are so many better things to do, but no, everyone just has Mario and Luigi fighting Bowser then Sonic and Tails show up and then Mecha Sonic always shows up, and they're always the same. I would have done something like put the characters in a new original world, or think of some new character to pose a different galactic or space-time level theat, or take that aforementioned Justice League approach or just take inspiration from more things than just Dragon Ball, One Piece and My Hero Academia every time and rehashing scenes from MarioBrosZ over and over, and using Star Road and Chaos Emeralds as macguffins with Mecha Sonic being recycled every time.
Also: I keep seeing several other animators (at least three of them) chiming in the comments touting their own series as being "original, unique, and not SMBZ ripoffs!", but then I go to all of their channels and find that all of their series are basically just SMBZ but with a third crossover added in on top of Mario and Sonic. One of them wasn't even just using Metallix, but also had the wolverine claw Koopatrol and the Axem Ranger Mega Man edits, too. Literally all three of them also did the usual SMBZ ripoff thing where they think it'd be original to have someone other than Shadow accompany Sonic, even though all it does is add bloat to the cast and increase the animators' workload. If anything, I'm pretty sure there's more SMBZ clones that try to differentiate themselves by putting in Tails, Knuckles, and sometimes even extraneous characters like Amy and Cream than there are knockoffs that just use Shadow like the original. It's not a clever or original subversion anymore. Even despite not being lifted from SMBZ itself, it's just as played out as the tournament, the transformed Bowser fight w/ Sonic interfering, Chaos Emeralds, Metallix, etc. I get the logic that these concepts could theoretically be fresh if they're used in a different way, but that's really, really debatable. Seeing the same crap over and over again is a hard sell to begin with. Even if someone does use Metallix in a different way.....why use him in the first place? Like, would it really hurt to just find a different villain? Just the presence of some of these characters is boring and tiresome. I'm at the point where I "nope" out of any series the second I see Metallix in a thumbnail. And in the case of SMBZ clones that just add a third series on top of Mario and Sonic; why not just have the new series that's being introduced replace Sonic outright instead of bloating the cast with multiple crossovers? Really don't get it.
This is why me and Koopster canceled SMB Minus, at first I thought I could continue where he left off but improving it as time went on, it turned into a mess of a script which never saw the end of the tunnel, then we tried to remake it, also didn't go well, every idea was either too smbz or trying so hard to not be smbz. I realized only 1 year later that the core problem was the crossover itself in the first place, unless you're really creative, you're bound to grab some smbz elements intentionally or not.
@@MMG2489 Absolutely, I agree 100%. The issue you raised in this video about the sprites was a very good point. There's not really any escaping SMBZ comparisons when it's a Mario/Sonic sprite series. Even if you do everything in an original way, it's going to at least resemble SMBZ on a surface level. The fact that they DO typically end up being SMBZ clones just adds another layer to the problem. As for your next series, I heard about that in response to a comment I left on the last episode of SMB Minus. Big props to both of you for heading in a better direction. And after watching this video and some of the other critiques videos you've made, I have confidence that you guys are going to be able to pull off something worthwhile. Best of luck with whatever you have planned!
I remember as a kid, enjoying another sprite animated series directly inspired by SMBZ (and running at the same time as the original series) called Mega Sonic Bros AF. It tried to do what SMBZ did and more, not just using characters, elements and plots from Mario, Sonic and Dragon Ball, but also Mega Man, Kingdom Hearts, and, had the series continued, Bleach and Naruto. The very *DAY* they announced SMBZ was officially cancelled, the creator of MSBAF did the same for his own series.
Damn, you do bring up an intresting point. With how sprite animators are sometimes forced into doing similar shots, thank to the limited sprite selection. Never really thought of it that way, but it makes sense.
Also probably doesn't help that A: Super Mario Bros. Z itself was never finished, so there will always be an itch for it that I think has led a lot of other animators to try to come in and make a spirtual successor to it in an attempt to finish it. B: Making a sprite series is no easy feat, even for a knock off series. A lot of sprite animators handle every aspect of production by themselves with little help. This can get tiring. Theres a reason why so many animated shows are handled by a team of writers, animators, editors, and directors.
C. They tend to think WAY TOO FAR into their story lifespan despite sprite series goats like Rise of the mushroom Kingdom and Powerstar being finished with barley an hour of runtime for both series combined. Sprite animators want their story to be long and never usually have a thought out plan. I remember SpacePea replied to one of my comments saying that he plans to make his series WAY longer than 10 episodes despite his first episode being the length of 5 22 minute episodes. This is very unrealistic and the series should end at around episode 5. D. They tend to reboot their series instead of simply continuing where they left off. Fans are usually fine eith this but never consider the implication of us waiting at least a year to see something we've already seen before rather than a long awaited continuation.
Story telling is definitely my biggest ick in sprite animations. It’s just a quick way to get some attraction, no real passion put behind the work. And that’s why they never make it past Episode 2. Great video meme man, congrats on 1k subs!
5:01-5:20 man, I’m so glad me from 3 years ago when I first started sprite animating decided to ditch this chain of predictable story events for my sprite series and do someone different for its first episode I actually DID decide to make, at least for everything except having Mario, Sonic and even Kirby be the main characters XD
I think the biggest problem is in fact the limitations. The only way to truly get rid of this problem is to make more custom sprites and that’s a much harder task than most people believe. Making a single sprite alone can take hours to do.
I think the """""""""inspiration"""""""" point, choreography-wise, can heavily depend and be scruntinized on a case by case basic. SMBZ's reboot lifts small scenes directly from DBZ/S and One Piece, and I've never seen anyone complain about it or even point it out. A good chunk of the time, I think it's because Mark is pretty good at not making it extremely obvious unlike a lot of the examples in your videos. I don't necessarily have problem with sprite animators doing it either, as long as it's done tastefully and doesn't take me out of the experience. (I think it's fair to say DX crossed this line) "Tracing" I don't have a really big problem with either, as long as it's from official media like comics or the shows or whatever, and not lifted from another fanwork. To me, I don't really see the difference between using officially made sprites of the characters and other drawn/rendered official artwork. It's effectively the same thing at the end of the day. Repurposing professionally made work that you didn't make for your own uses. You can think higher of the animators that are able to do their own artwork. But to moralize it, as I've seen some people do, I don't think is really fair. My friend and were discussing the general lack of improvement in the mass majority of sprite based people we used to follow a few weeks ago. (One of them being Kaujiking/GojiAsylus) We ended up coming up with the term "DeviantART Syndrome" to describe this, because we primarily saw it there. We concluded that it was likely caused by echo chambers of encouragement, and generally artists who lacked any kind of desire to improve their craft. So I think the points you make are definitely valid generally speaking. Ideally, artists should start out replicating what they know and eventually venture outside of their comfort zones in order to make truly great and unique art/animation. For some reason, this tends to not happen in the sprite animation community. I think it might have to do with animators starting a series first and just aping SMBZ, because that's just what they know, instead of experimenting for a little longer with smaller projects and honing their craft/ideas.
*TL;DR:* I'm glad this video exists because I'm so fucking tired of these SMBZ copycats as well and I think we should just STOP IT with these kinds of creations already and make something else that's simple yet effective and original. *Long read:* This was such a good rant video regarding all these damn copycats of SMBZ sprite series. It's literally the reason as to why I don't ever give into any of these pathetic clones since all of them are basically the same fucking thing. Like, I get that animating isn't an easy thing to do since each and all of these sprite animations are done by single animators alone. But is it really that difficult to come up with ORIGINAL STORIES to tell?? A story that isn't SMBZ's story for the fiftieth time??? I swear, man, if you ask me, the last sprite animation series that actually tried to have an interesting and fairly original story to tell was Heroes of the Stars. Say what you will about that series (heck even I don't care about it nowadays), but despite its flaws and it also plagiarizing scenes from SMBZ, back when it was first a new thing, its story was actually something original and unique. Yes, its main premise is based off of Paper Mario's story. However, it did not just blatantly ripped it off entirely. It managed to take that game's story and turned it into something else that makes it different and distinct still. Something that many other sprite animation series completely fail to fucking do. Why can't we just move on from trying to make another SMBZ-like series and make something simple yet effective and original? You don't have to make another series like SMBZ if you wanna make Mario and Sonic sprite characters beat the shit out of each other. Honestly, I'd prefer watching a plain and simple Character VS Character fight over another SMBZ series clone. I get more entertainment and even a sense of a story being told from those sprite animations alone.
@@MMG2489yeah man. i just got done watching your HOTS retrospective videos and they were great. they pretty much summed up my point here. can't wait to see you make the next part!
So That's why SMBZ and other SMBZ like Series Are just Not as big as they use to be? Honestly that makes a lot more sense, Even that part about Sprite animators being limited never thought about it like that but you make a really good point
You hit the nail on the head with how detailed and important sprite animation is. Some of the important features in animation would be giving this the effort, heart, and soul they deserve, as well as proving quality matters more over quantity. An interesting thing to note at 2:34: this Mario sprite was used six, SIX, goddamn times (seven if you don't include the DX intro). Not only that, but you notice recycled animation not only for Bowser three times in Episode 2, but in other moments throughout Super Mario Bros. DX (Mecha Sonic's legs before picking a Chaos Emerald in Episode 1 and Episode 5 as an example). Even back when he was SmasherBlock, he used it for Super Mario Bros. GT (you notice most of these animations reused from Episodes 1-4) because of Smashinity neglecting the quality of sprite animation. What's sad is that Smasher can still put on a nice guy face while hiding away the truth. If only he didn't keep lying. ua-cam.com/video/86j4n6uEO6I/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/G5E7ra3n-HI/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/Fqg_O4JyUU0/v-deo.html
Yeeeah I do kinda agree, while I do love SMBZ, it is kinda bothersome that most people just try to copy what it already did or something. Not that these sorts of shows can't be good or something but, people have seen the format before.
These are all really good points being made. Having the sprites be the same all across different videos makes sense since they use the same sprite sheet. But the story being nearly identical to SMBZ is where it gets into plagiarism. There needs to be much more creativity behind the stories. And if they're really dedicated, they could always create their own sprites so that they're not always restricted to the Super star Saga and Sonic DX ones. They could even release the newly made sprites for the public to use too. Of course, animating is really hard. So making sprites for each individual character would be an absolute nightmare. 😅
This was one of my motivations to get back into animating. Also, thank god for Sonic the Dark Form existing, and Unknown Chaos being the first Sprite Series to actually finish
You want to know why unknown chaos actually finished....because the creator didn't waste years of his life rebooting something that the fans already consider good.
@@anhillary9345 Are you throwing shade at SMBZ or SMBDX? Cause Mark has explained his reasoning for rebooting Z and Smashshitty’s content was never good.
@@crumpscrumbs smashinity is an ecception. He had to reboot because of his plagiarism.....and he still plagiarized after the rebooting but just ignores it. I mean.......I'm just saying, we would have been on episode 11 or 12 if the smbz wasn't rebooted. Now we have to wait at least a decade to simply get back to where we were. And it's not just smbz. Many sprite animators reboot their series for no reason other than "better animation," or SOME changes in storyline, when it would be better to simply see the improvements in those aspects while the series continues. Look at super mario bros minus. It's getting reboot for the 3RD TIME just because the creator got better with animation. If that series wasn't ever rebooted, we would be on episode 7. Asylusgoji91 remade smb hots episode 1 and 2 multiple times, for no reason really.
The fact that mark has depression and he sees these clones probably makes it worse because it's like "someone else is ripping me off" sometimes you can be influenced by someone but being inspired is much different than ripping them off. There's plenty of dragon ball z/super stories you can retell using mario and sonic.
One problem I usually have with smbz clones is that they always focus on the Mario side of the crossover and don’t have a balance between the two series so it gets repetitive quickly. “Episode 1 has Mario & co having a picnic, a race or a tournament before bowser crashes it, kidnaps the princess and/or Mario fights him, bowser powers up, Mario starts losing then Sonic shows up to help Mario beat bowser” which is usually at the end of first episode but sometimes it takes until the second episode for him or any other sonic characters to show up in the story. The original smbz kinda had this problem as well though not a big as a deal as it was the first sprite series to have a Mario and sonic crossover that was really enjoyable to watch and Ambitious for the time, it also created one of the most popular fan favourite Iterations of mecha sonic that still appears in other sonic sprite animations. It has sonic showing up at the end of episode two and you have to wait until episode three to have an explanation of how they’re here in the first place, it’s a bit slow at the start compared to how fast the revival is but that’s mostly because the earlier episodes were a lot shorter than the later ones and since it’s shown to be a mystery as to why they are there which adds to the story and since it was the first time it was done, it worked. But in smbz inspired series we already know why sonic is here so the mystery is lost and its time wasted on not developing his character, sometimes the story would start from sonic’s perspective showing how he and his friends got to Mario’s world which would make you think it going to focus more on the sonic characters this time but it quickly goes back to Mario being the main focus for the series. The story either has only sonic & Mario be important to the plot due to too many characters being introduced at the start making hard to flesh them all out or they stick to the Mario cast with having sonic(and maybe shadow) being important to the story which makes it too similar to smbz, the sonic characters (besides sonic & shadow) don’t do anything to further the story except to increase the amount of side characters that appear in the background to exposit information to the audience. To me the most popular villain that ever came out of this series and has become the face of smbz, is mecha sonic. Who is used as a crutch by the animators since instead of using different villains from sonic’s franchise, they usually resort to having mecha as the final boss for sonic’s series without giving any other villains some spotlight. They use a lot of Mario’s villains but only use eggman(barely)and mecha sonic, there are some other fan favourite sonic villains that should be considered as a main villain as well and if you want to have him in the storyline, have mecha appear as metal sonic at the start of the story and have him transform into mecha later on and becomes a main enemy to give other villains more time to shine early on in the story would be a good idea. But since he was in the original series they feel like they have to include him in every sprite animated series inspired by smbz without trying something new with the formula.
As far as focusing on the mario side, I feel as if there is not enough representation when it comes to the mario characters. Think about it, we only get Mario, Luigi, and sometimes Yoshi, while sonic gets him, Shadow, Knuckles, Tails, Amy, Silver, and more. Wario and Waluigi are usually treated as jokes and are NEVER important in any way. Peach (despite being able to go on adventures and defend herself) stays in her castle at all times or gets kidnapped. Daisy rarely exists. Toad straight up DOESN'T EXIST!! The Donkey Kong characters are usually planned for very late in the story so they never end up getting any screen time (the only time I remember them having importants is in Godzilla vs Koopzilla). This might be because for some reason, mario and luigi aren't allowed to speak, which leaves very little room for character development and also makes Wario, Waluigi, Yoshi, DK, Diddy, most of the kongs, all not able the speak. To be honest, a lot of sprite animators straight up don't know how to do "silent mario" right. Series like smbz actually make him and luigi have expression and character put in the them, but MANY series have their character and personality be no different than a brick wall, to the point where I forget they are even there and ask myself "isn't mario supposed to be the main character?" Also, Bowser is literally the ONLY Mario villain that's actually taken seriously, while the sonic series has Mecha sonic, eggman, scorge, nazo, selakoom, and more fanmade or comic villains (super All-Star bros is the prime example of this). Another thing I noticed was that smbz was probably the only mario and sonic sprite series that had shadow apart of the main cast. All the copies had tails and knuckles, as well as having all of the sonic characters alive. People might think that it's being more unique, because it was.....until more...and more....and more series came out having that same team of 6 line up, making these sprite series really just copies of eachother more than copies of smbz. Honestly, I feel like the sonic characters do WAY more than the mario characters when it comes to furthering the plot (since there are usually only 3 mario characters while there are like 10 sonic characters).
@@anhillary9345 to be honest I didn’t notice that they only used Mario, Luigi and yoshi for the Mario side in all of the copies and don’t have other Mario characters as apart of the main cast because they’re all so similar and don’t deviate that much from each other that I start mixing them together (I believe toadsworth only appears in one of them) and I only focused on the sonic cast, the last one I watched was super Mario bros DX back when it was popular and I stopped after episode three so having more sonic characters back then was still original, not that it matters because “random tangent” they’re wasted in that series and are only used to further the plot without actually being given any character development outside of sonic himself, the fight scene in the forest (which meme man did a video on) only exists because Amy doesn’t notice a cliff in front of her, knuckles is only there to get beaten up by mecha sonic in place of yoshi and doesn’t do anything before or after that and tails is only there to say smart things and fly the tornado (tails’s whole existence in the story undermines egads since you don’t need two smart characters who do the exact same thing). Smbz only had sonic,shadow,eggman and mecha sonic for the sonic side which balances out Mario’s side which has Mario, Luigi, yoshi and bowser with some supporting characters, eggman only appearing briefly in episode four in flashback and episode eight obscured in darkness so sonic, shadow and mecha were the only ones who were important to the story but it made it easier for the story to highlight them without them being pushed into the background. And when it comes to the sonic characters, they’re not immune to being written as one note: sonic is mostly himself since he gets the most screen time out of all of the sonic characters due to being the secondary protagonist but everyone else, I don’t really remember them or their personalities since there isn’t any focus on them outside the main plot so they’re written to be generic, “tails is the smart one who expositions a lot, knuckles is strong but dumb, Amy likes sonic and is kind to people and shadow is just vegata who whines and complains that everyone is too soft and only shows up to be cool. They also only use the same villains such as bowser, bowser jr, the koopalings, eggman and mecha sonic while filling in the blanks with a bunch of one-off villains who aren’t taken seriously like you said, with super all-star bros using more sonic villains like scourge, nazo and selakdoom, characters who are really popular and are taken seriously in their respective series all showing up alongside mecha sonic (who is still here despite being overused and the fact that they’re enough villains in the story) it creates the problem of having too many villains that giving them proper screen time is more difficult (don’t get me started on the original villains for the series). super all-star bros also has the problem of overall having too many characters to focus on which clutters up the story as well as including a third franchise in the mix (freedom planet) which results with needing even more characters and it will slowly start to pile up until there are too many characters and will have to relegate most of them into being in the background. None of the copies have a balance between the two franchises, with having too many sonic characters, the Mario cast get left behind or they have to relegate the wider sonic cast into the background in order to give the Mario characters some screen time which results in them being underused and only using the same set of characters instead of mixing and matching. Why not have rouge or cream in place of Amy and sliver in place of shadow, give the Mario characters…more character, have other Mario characters appear in the story either in more important roles or just be apart of the cast, have bowser and eggman not team up at the start be competing against each other in who can get the emeralds first, have the main cast go to daisy’s kingdom to help her fight king boo who has a chaos emerald or something making him a threat to the heroes, have more Mario villains who aren’t just filler, have the Mario characters get sent to sonic’s world instead and have him be the main character with his villains taking a more prominent role, have selakdoom be the main villain instead of mecha sonic for the thousandth time, there are so many things you can do with this crossover but no one’s really scratched the surface of how much could potentially be done in a sprite animated series.
@@charliemulcahy9200 It's crazy that the only characters in smb dx that seem to have actual care is Sonic and Shadow (maybe and I mean MAYBE Knuckles). All of the sonic characters are usually one note or their to just progress the story, and if they are one note, then the mario characters are definitely one note. I remember the scene in smbz reboot ep 2 when luigi was telling the gang about what happened to Yoshi. GOD DAMN THAT WAS DONE SO PERFECTLY. It's just that people don't know how to write muted characters and just end up making mario and luigi just stand there listening to the sonic characters talk to eachother. Smbz had a good balance of the 2 sides. Mario had his world, more characters and side villains, Sonic only had 4 character that pushed the plot forward and had the story revolve around them. It becomes a problem when you add a lot more sonic characters and villains while the Mario characters just stick to 4 (mario, luigi, yoshi, and bowser) while still having little interaction, and STILL MAKING MECHA SONIC THE MAIN VILLAIN. I love sasb, but that series suffers from this as well. He added Scourge, Nazo, and Selakoom as serious villains who are at the same threat level as mecha sonic. The mario series, just make bowser slightly stronger and save him for later. I would definitely like to see more combinations of characters and not just stick to the normal mario luigi yoshi sonic tails and knuckles team of 6. It would make series much more refreshing.
This was before I knew anything about DBZ or the fact the elements were directly tied to the anime -- I loved SMBZ because as a kid it felt like the only one of its kind in terms of great story, amazing fighting, comedy in all the right places and convincingly written characters. That energy still holds up to this day even knowing what I know now. What I would GIVE for another special something like that. NOT another SMBZ, but another project with as much passion and the feeling of stumbling upon a legacy.
The SMBZ Clones have been stale for a long time now, it's only Recently that people have caught on and thats sad, cuz there are so many other series out there that can be looked at but no one does cuz it's not a SMBZ Clone
One other thing people don't also take to account is the fact that sprite animation series have to be limited to JUST Mario and Sonic, sometimes together in a series or separate. I get they're like the mount rushmore of gaming but it becomes too much when we're just stuck with that. How many other franchises of media got included in a sprite series in the past decade? Kirby? Even then we barely see much of it, it's a shame too because there's been so many games that have a bunch of detailed and outstanding sprites for the past 3 decades all being remixed or improved upon to be posted in the Spriters Resource, only to be ignored for the 10000000th SMBZ knockoff Mario and Sonic sprite sheet
I recommend watching "If smash bros was realistic" 1 and 2. Such amazing and funny watches. Also this sprite series called "cosmic." It's a little "ok" at the start, but really ramps up as the series goes on.
SMBZ's popularity and success was practically a "lightning in a bottle" moment. It showed up out of left field, took the internet by storm with it's plot and once it was canceled folks tried to either make something similar or continue the story in some capacity. Keyword being "tried" because eventually those trying to make something original still ended up making a copy of SMBZ right down to the plot being a near one-to-one copy. And then the folks who *did* get praised for their creation ended up getting analyzed to the point where it's revealed that they straight up stole specific scenes as well as stealing dialogue from the works of others on top of other issues with either their project, themselves or even a mix of both.
unlike alot of sprite animators, my inspiration for sprite animations and a series i *might* make comes from numerous old sonic sprite series from the 2000s, such as Sonic Quest for Power and Dawning of Darkness, and, if they count, Sonic RPG and Final Fantasy Sonic X and if i were to make my planned series, it wouldnt take anything from SMBZ, we already seen that, more times than we can count, same plot, same characters, SAME ANTAGONIST, everything when making a sprite series, it'd be best to ask yourself "what did sprite series NOT do" and/or "what did SMBZ NOT do?"
See what I think needs to be done and what I think would help a lot of these sprite series is for the animators to make their own sprites. I know making sprites is difficult, but if you can make your own custom sprites or commission an artist to do so you solve the entire problem of being limited to an existing spritesheet. Suddenly you have a lot more freedom to craft an interesting narrative because the sprites are no longer just ripped from Resource, they're your own. This also means that all the characters in a crossover series can look the same. Imo spriters resource should be used as a reference for making custom sprites rather than just outright using the original animations.
This. This ALL THE WAY! I’m truly baffled that more people aren’t aware that even Mark had to use Custom Sprites later on in SMBZ, from as notable as Fire Sonic to as tiny as a couple of pixels. God knows Mecha Mario wouldn’t have existed if Mark didn’t make custom sprites
0:23 yeah honestly I was confused regarding, when does the inspiration becomes a copy? when does a homage becomes plagiarizm.. and well in this case I have mixed feelings since the anitmaton itself its not tracing drawings but the coreography of the fight, I am not an animator but its easy to see the parallels, thanks for adressing this topic, lets hope more animators learn from these issues
I watched this video mostly out of curiosity at first, but when I thought about it during the whole thing, your points made a lot of sense. In conclusion, I had one of those, "Quite frankly, I agree" moments.
Ik it's not the main point, but in terms of re-used sprites I think one weird solution, which would take a much longer time though is to make digitalised drawings (like with the sprites for Capcom vs Marvel). It's a slightly easier way than making a sprite from scratch (sure, you make the DRAWING from scratch, but at least it's much easier).
I was thinking of making a inspired series of SMBZ, but I always wonder what the plot should be. But the main issue is, I don’t know what it should be, I was thinking of Bowser being the main villain or some other character other than Mecha Sonic. It’s really not easy making a plot for a SMBZ clone.
The hardest part of a Sprite series would be the animation. Without question. There’s a reason people can chug out 1 Fanfic chapter a week regularly but even someone with a team like JaidenAnimations takes about 3 weeks to a month for 1 video.
4:56 - 5:20 I'm glad that with my fan series I decided to make difference and take only inspiration on SMBZ, with different protagonists and antagonists, different plot etc. etc. I cannot deny that in my last episodes 4 to 6, I did similar to SMBZ 😂 I loved too much the scenes where the heroes goes to Bowser's Ship and attack him that I made my """"own"""" interpretation. Well my fan series take inspiration from many franchaise (writed at the ending), beacuse the plot it's not Bowser as main villain (well I can't say more, or else will be spoilers!). Who knows if my fan series will be considered intresting or not, is up to the viewers!
I feel like a big part of the issue is that it seems almost obligatory at this point for every Mario-related sprite series to be a Sonic crossover. Yes, the fact that all of them end up copying SMBZ wholesale doesn't help matters, but I feel like a lot of the symptoms of the problem come just from the crossover nature alone. Even if the plot is completely different, an anime-esque Mario/Sonic crossover is going to draw comparisons to SMBZ regardless of whether or not it starts with a tournament and a Bowser fight and Metallix is there. People need to just pick and choose a series and stop cramming others in unnecessarily. Mario is a near-40 year old multimedia franchise. It doesn't need Sonic or anyone else to prop it up. There's more than enough potential to tell a story in the Mario universe without having Sonic the Hedgehog magically warp to the Mushroom Kingdom. The crossover issue has gotten to the point where it'd actually be more fresh to see another sprite series that's just Mario, and that's pretty much the complete opposite of every other fandom. Usually crossovers are something special, but with Mario, it's the norm. And there's no reason for it to be.
Though I also gotta say that the reaction to the death of SMB Calamity was a refreshing and reassuring one, and I'm glad more people seem to be seeing the issue with the state of Mario sprite animation. We've had over a decade of animators wasting potential just making clones of the same series over and over again. Taking SMBZ and adding even more Sonic characters or crossing Mario and Sonic with Kirby, Undertale, Freedom Planet, or whatever else doesn't make it fresh again. It's still a story we've already heard being retold for the dozenth time. This is an issue that should've been tackled at least 7 years ago, but I'm happy backlash is finally starting to mount.
Don't know how this escaped me when first uploaded, but this is facts. 5:31 - 5:42 Especially right here. This shows why so many are pretty much done with the SMBZ-styled format. Nothing is initially wrong with using similar characters, similar sprites and poses, etc. But when nothing new is really being shown with it, it's basically just rinse and repeat. Some other commentors made good points also. There are multiple franchises out there to adapt stories off of, but thanks to SMBZ and it's influence, people tend to go with the most recognizable. And it can be one's downfall as a result. It's always nice to try and think outside the box with this stuff, if even just a little. Kind of makes me glad I went in the direction I did for Super Star Legacy thus far.
@@dr92hmc99X you're only saying such rude things to Mark Haynes only to make people like Smashinity/Smasherblock, a dirty plagiarist and animation thief look better.
I use to have my own sprite series like this until a friend of mine warned me about this whole information and I’m glad that i stopped and wanted to make something else, but good thing I didn’t made a series like that but I’m planning on making a different sprite series then the smbz inspirations
i think the reason a lot of them follow the same story beats is because the old series got cancelled around episode 8-9 and people really wanted to see how it ended. so, the first person to do a similar style tried to answer that question and had to start with a very similar story to do it. then it just became the norm from there.
That’s why when I see a new sonic and Mario show I always roll my eyes, because they are all so similar. Also the point of everyone quitting I think has to do with the projects they make: if a show you are making doesn’t have anything unique or truly yours, then you are going to lose passion to even animate anything for it. Because you didn’t really do anything interesting with the idea that hasn’t been done before.
Man I cannot remember the last time I watched a Mario and Sonic sprite animation. Last one I watched SMBDX but I legit only got to episode 2 before I stopped. It really does suck that stuff like this plague the sprite animation community. SMBZ will always be dear to our hearts, but we need to learn that we don’t have to relive our history over and over again. SMBZ popped off because it was unlike anything that was seen at the time with Mario and Sonic characters. And as much as I want to say we just need to create something new and unique. It is easier said than done like in this video said, there are many other limitations that make people find any ‘shortcuts’ (using that term loosely) to make the process easier. If something worked before, why not do it again? This problem isn’t going to get fixed for a long time or it might not even be fixed at all. It will take a lot of time and work to create something new with the limitations that you have. But I do believe it’s possible. I do hope that one day a Mario and Sonic sprite series find it’s wings and spread them. New story beats, plot points and other things, that can really make it unique and stand on its own feet.
Been my gripe for years now. It's the fastest and simplest way to get views. I went with a cast of majorly Fan Characters with almost zero ties to the main cast (You don't even see them until the series is almost over), outside of universe and setting. Storytelling is key, and most have gotten stale at this point.
"Plagiarism is the merest form of flattery," however you're kinda right about how the "same formula" has been use for almost every series, and don't use originality with their creations and l understand that l may have a few suggestions here and there but it's original than using another emerald arc.
This video somewhat reminds me of some mario and sonic series I did with my cousin that's literally called "Mario vs Sonic" which was less clone-like but more amateur and I'm semi-glad that It became nothing more than that
They could always shake things up. Make Mario and Sonic get captured, forcing Luigi and Tails to step up. Both known "Cowardly" characters having a chance to step up and get into the spotlight. Heck, use villains from other medies, pick a villain from Kirby from example or something. SMBZ is great, but there's so much more it can be done.
I'd say to be fair to it all, people wanting to basically make SMBZ but X feels like a lot of people wanted more of it after AlvinEarthworm cancelled it out of what was essentially a I LITERALLY CAN'T EVEN mental episode along-side fan pestering as is per the norm (and then kept cancelling each reboot after the 2nd to 4th episode every time he attempted to reboot it). And I would feel bad if it wasn't for A.) the kind of drama llama the guy could be at times even if some don't see it in public, and B.) the "interesting" thing he clearly wants to do way more than sprite animations (hint: the thing Sonic's community is known for that isn't fangames and the thing attached to your leg, you should be able to put it together from there) that he flocks back to every time he clearly has an episode and wants to be just left alone for eons.
I dont want to sound obsessed with this one series i like talking about, but this is why i like Dimension Saga, its way more original while still having Mario and Sonic in a crossover (and then some). Sure Dimension Mix Up was pretty much an emerald hunt and had Mecha Sonic in it, but the plot points and events, from beginning to end, were way different than the common Sonic saves Mario trope in the first episode of "yet another flash series".
As a starting lore concept, I can guess that in Sonic's world, all 7 chaos emeralds are at Robotnik's base and Sonic is trying to stop him. Robotnik's plan is to use all 7 chaos emeralds to get rid of them by opening a knee-dimensional portal. But then Sonic accidentally kicks metal sonic into the reactor, destroying the entire base along with Robotnik and metal sonic, but the rest are sucked into the portal along with the chaos emeralds into Mario's world. More specifically, this would be a different kind of crossover, where instead of Mario and Sonic working together, they would be against each other, because Mario and Sonic know that the chaos emeralds are terminally powerful and don't trust the sonics. Then others in Mario's world will find out this information and everyone will try to get the emeralds.
In the past, some fans did retelling of dbz with either mario or Sonic. Just do that, and it won't be a clone. You have super, super dragon ball heroes, and fighterz. You could retell those with mario and Sonic, and it would be cool. If i did a smash animation, i would base both moro and gronalah arc instead of doing with alvin is doing
I've been a fan of sprite animations ever since I was 10. I just turned 23. I've always wanted to make sprite animations and I am slowly learning how Flash works. But I'm not interested in making a series. I just want to make fun fights and the like. But you've struck every point that makes me hesitate making bigger projects. Seeing every new sprite series be shut down after 1-3 episodes is really common and disappointing. No one seems to realize that making an animation (especially ones more than a few minutes long) requires MUCH more work than it lets on. I recently watched SMB DX, and was VERY disappointed with the amount of plagiarism in the series. Not only that, it's just... so boring. More than 50% of the fights in that series are plagiarized, which is just... How?! SMBHoTS was fine for the first... 7-ish episodes. Then it just had gallons of filler and far too much dialogue and too little fighting. Everything else is just... Not worth watching. No offense to anyone trying to make a series of this magnitude, I know how difficult it has to be. Please, make something original, and don't plagiarize.
I remember this one that was a clean exception to this topic that I feel like you have seen... I don't remember the name, but, it was all Mario characters and none from Sonic and... Princess Shroob was the villain. As for the actual topic at talk here... I won't lie when i say that I was on the same train as that guy's comment. Sprite animation requires... a ton of dedication and time. You have none to spare, you can't do it. Edit: I just checked on your channel to discover that you've *indeed* talked about it before and now I feel dumb-o. :0 Alas, I will watch it immediately. :D
Another thing I've noticed is that every single sprite series I've seen gets cancelled. I don't know what the point to making a series is if it's gonna get cancelled. For once I'd just like one sprite series that has a begining middle and end
2:36 You know than Ryo Morisaki really improve this sprites before? I think Smashinity goes further beyond with this plagiarism thing...I mean, its a pity even in his intro series is a reference to Ryo Morisaki, compinche...
Tbh I hope you stick with voice recorded videos. I love your silent text based take downs of DX and HOTS episodes but the way you narrate makes your videos very engaging.
With how easy it is to plagiarize sprite animations (even if unintentionally), it's one reason I'd prefer to use 3D models with SFM or Blender if I had time to dedicate to making animations. Frustrating enough, I have one idea of a 3D animation, depicting a Smash Tournament with Mario and Bowser. Make it a harmless short where the two are duking it out. Got the Bowser camp on one side, and a bunch of toads on the other. I'd emphasize that Mario's powerful, but has to build up momentum to hit Bowser, while Bowser can just hit like an 18 wheeler. Bowser wins the first round, and he's actually disappointed. Demands Mario to get up, the plumber at first grabs a Fire Flower, and considers using it. But tosses it to the side, and uses an Ice Flower, because I have yet to see anyone make a fight with Mario or Luigi wielding an Ice Flower. Rearmed, Ice Mario starts throwing snowballs to counter Bowser's fire. At one point, Mario hurls a block of ice, Bowser attempts to eat it; only to have a hard time breaking it with his teeth. Mario takes advantage, punches Bowser in the gut, the Koopa King spits out the block. But the Mario grabs the ice block, and whacks Bowser with it like a beer bottle. Honestly, when you change what kind of powerups Mario uses, it can change how you animate a fight. Impressed and annoyed, Bowser decides to go overkill, and with Jr's help, transforms into Fury Bowser. Mario uses the Ice Flower to evade the plumes of fire, while attempting to slow Bowser. Mario eventually grabs a Giga Cat Bell, and it turns into a kaiju battle. And that's the farthest I thought this out.
With that much sprite series about Mario and Sonic kicking butt, it's such a fascinating wonder why that the likes of BlazBlue and Guilty Gear don't catch their eye.
también hay que recordar que muchas de estas series son reinterpretaciones de la historia de SMBZ hasta con los nombres se nota eso, pero para esas series deberían usar el concepto de archie con el crossover entre mario y sonic, osea eggman y bowser se odien entre sí o que la hojalata es quien secuestra a peach y mario lo confunde con sonic o dejar que mecha (barra metal) sonic sea el villano principal de la serie de turno sería mejor que sea un villano secundario o antagonista de la serie o o usar a la hermandad de metallix
Honestly i wondered why the formula kept repeating... They are still entertaining but why is it ALWAYS nearly the same cast? Can we see other characters hold their own in a fight??? I guess its just following the formula because it rakes in views, but theyd really wow people if they changed up the script.
and this is the reason why i grew out of watching sprite animations entirely. i've gotten fatigued by them after awhile and it's made worse that they always end with no conclusions at all Mario And Sonic Worlds In Danger? 10 episodes. no conclusion Mega Sonic Bros AF? 5 episodes. no conclusion, and the "Mega Sonic Bros AF Movie" was never posted Sonic And The Dark Emeralds? 3 episodes. no conclusions Sonic GX? 12 or 13 episodes. and no conclusion because the creator openly DESPISES Sonic as a franchise now im also not a fan of how these sprite animations try to be like Dragonball Z from the premise and Shadow is always portrayed as the Vegeta stand-in for these videos
Part of the problem could be that because SMBZ was never actually completed, a lot of people want to create something like it in the hopes of completing it. They never do, of course, but it will naturally attract imitators more than a series that exists as a complete work, since it would have nothing significant to improve.
While SMBZ wasn't the catalyst initially, SMBZ did legitimize a change in the way fans conceptualize the Sonic setting. It went from a fun speed-based platformer, to the typical mind-rot of power-scaling debates. The result was a million non-canon alternate forms that just ripped off other Shonen anime tropes (Mostly from Dragonball Z/GT/Super) that didn't really add anything interesting or new, just the same attacks but with increased damage levels. The best, but also worst part, is that with Frontiers, Sonic Team basically confirmed everyone beliefs of how these fights would go, especially with all the Super Sonic boss fights being full of flashy cutscene attacks and beam spam.
What i personally find odd as a guy outside this community is that people are kinda just forgetting that Mark Haynes burned out. Like, dont get me wrong, im not saying that theres anything wrong with the original SMBZ having been cancelled; The series certainly wouldnt have had anywhere near the same influence if Mark kept it light and simple and didnt constantly keep pushing the bar higher and higher. But, ultimately, he burned out. People seem to just see his accomplishments and decide to do the same thing, but 10x harder from the start and then, shockingly, the same thing happens: they burn out (or they continue with severely lacking quality) The first episodes of SMBZ werent that grand, and the fact that the time between episodes just from weeks to a whole year goes to show that, yet, those episodes are still FANTASTIC. Not EVERY episode needs to be HALF AN HOUR LONG. Seriously, are people just disillusioned to the herculian effort it is to create ANYTHING of serviceable quality with a duration of half an hour? Even the average anime episode has a shorter runtime, and like a fifth or a quarter of that runtime is the opening and the ending. This is why people are skeptical i think. People keep just doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Heres what i learned from the most insanely DEDICATED people to their fan creations (the MLP fandom): the most successful animated series are those which take screencaps from google images and put them together in Windows Movie Maker with text boxes. You will find, several of these. If you have a cool idea for a crossover with MLP, itll have been done in this format, and WOW these have a LOT of episodes. The MLP fandom has its own boogieman which every couple of years some new starry-eyed group of very skilled people come to tackle: a Fallout Equestria animated adaptation. An animated adaptation of a book with over half a million words.
Back in the 2000s there were people who were making smbz inspired work but instead of copying Mark they did it based of either gt or z. (I believe one person did his own smb called it ball instead of bros gt, and based it on gt, there was a sonic and dragon ball fan who made choas emerald z and based it on the sayian saga, there was another fan who made a mario dragon ball crossover called it super mario ball z and based it on the sayian saga) when alvinsmbz saw them he was impressed and liked them, now he probably hates the people who copy his work. So for new sprite animators you can make your own stories like Mark but try to make it your own idea again you could base it off z or super and hell even super dragon ball heroes or fighterz you can base it off of. If i ever get into sprite animation i would do super smash bros z and base it on the manga arcs until the anime returns (not doing the one now because it's retelling super hero)
If you're gonna make something, have passion for it. Even if you leave it hanging for a long time, you know you will finish it. If it gets canceled… just why bother having made it at all?
You could not have laid out my frustration with modern SMBZ-like Sprite series any better. For the life of me, I never understood why they needed to copy ENTIRE SCENES AND PLOT BEATS. It’s so limiting and insulting to storytelling itself.
Being inspired is one thing ripping it off is another. Some people should just retell a saga of z/super or even fighterz with mario and Sonic rather than just make a clone of smbz
Couldn't Mario visit Sonic's world instead of Sonic visiting Mario's world all the time?
@@234SuperSimiand also have a MARIO villain be the main antagonist.
@@anhillary9345 Yeah!
Because Haynes left behind a void in everyone's hearts that they need to fill. The fact that it was cancelled doesn't help.
Every single sprite series *ever* that has aped SMBZ has never reached its conclusion. It's like watching the start of a movie over and over but never seeing anything beyond it.
And I hate it so much. There’s no end, just a beginning, leaving you on an endless cliffhanger when it’s canned. So why even bother making it in the first place if it’s just ripoff?
@@Lincfish10894TSThat's why people should start making soft sequels to sprite animations. Like if i knew how to animate (or was interested), I would make a sequel or continuation to Mega Sonic Bros AF, which is already a sequel to smbz.
@@anhillary9345 and now I will make my own series of sprites. But not being related to SMBZ, my own creation that is not a copy paste of SMBZ
@@anhillary9345 someone actually tried making a continuation of smbz but their english was kinda bad and they could barely animate
That IS the same problem I have with most Panty and Stocking fanworks(specially if they pick Up where the anime left off)
I would like to see a pixel art community that starts to shy away from the SMBZ story format because, as you said, it's been done to death. There are so many more concepts for stories you can go with so whenever we get to a point where people will indulge those new stories, that will be a good day
I watched the whole video. I agree with what you said at the end. It's not surprising that that person basically prophesied the cancellation of SMBC. Even if it's a Mario and Sonic crossover, the main villain does NOT have to be Mecha Sonic.
@@SeelkadoomTHS yes this guy yet again lol and wth I didn't expect so many likes
This guy yet again
@@SeelkadoomTHS yep that's me
Yo simi long time no see
@@DJWingoYT Yo what's up!!!
I agree with having high pressure by making some kind of series with a style of video/animation that looks "simple". Which is not that simple when you get into it.
To my experience with sprite animations, I canceled and rebooted an old series I've been on since 2017 (and I'm still in it today) due to a few issues like lacking ideas and also motivation, but there was also the idea of being presured by everyone asking "when episode next??", to this point I was affraid of taking too much time to make something as great as possible, but being dissapointed by the reality of people's losing interest in the series because "it took too long".
Now that I'm a bit more mature now, I know how to handle that kind of stress, but I'm still not guaranteed of making performance once my series will be done, who knows.
But at the difference here, is that I personally want to get through the end of the series I'm currently working on (which Team Sonic Adventures if you're interested ^^), but no matter how long it will take or if it will be a success, I take that as a benefic experience for me x)
But still, people need to understand that it's not that easy, and people need to have a life behind all of this 😂
and I thank you for making this video because it was really interesting to see the curse of sprite animation series from this angle. :3
Hey, you're the dude that made the RvB "Short Term Memory Loss" video with Sonic characters. Nice to see you here. 😊
But to your point, yeah, animating must be pretty hard. I've never animated myself, but over the years, I've come to understand that even the simplest of animations take days if not weeks for just a few seconds of footage. That's why I'm always so fascinated when people find shortcuts to animating without sacrificing too much in quality.
You make a lot of good points. SMBZ was a very influential series, which is both a good… and a bad thing. It has helped inspired so many great and wonderful original sprite series and fights and without it, the sprite community wouldn’t be as big as it is now. However, it has also brought copycats and high expectations that every series will be as great as it and must follow the same beats and use the same sprites. This leads to clone series like SMBDX or series that get prematurely canceled due to the animator feeling burned out due to trying to live up to high expectations of the fan base.
SMBZ will always be a great series, but due to its immense influence, it will always be brought into the conversation when a new sprite animation or series is introduced. Not every sprite series is going to be like or surpass SMBZ and that’s ok. I rather watch something more original and unique than something that tries to mimic SMBZ. (I’m looking at you SMBDX.) I rather encourage creativity than plagiarism. I apologize if my long winded tangent comes off as incoherent rambling but this is just my thoughts on the matter.
I suppose it’s also interesting to note: I didn’t grow up watching the original SMBZ. I grew up with other Flash series’s like Sonic RPG.
what I especially find amusing is that the most influential and popular sprite series SMBZ…..also didn’t finish, its curse spreads to others
In the past people would just retell the sayian saga with mario and Sonic characters then just clone smbz i feel people could do that and be done with it there's plenty of sagas to use
For years, growing up and watching so many terrible SMBZ ripoffs popping up left and right every couple of months, made me want to learn how to do sprite flash animations just so I could do something better and more original. I never ended up putting in that work, rather putting my talents to work on completely other things, but I always thought about how so many of these are terrible and struggle with such unorginality and bad storytelling. I had several basic premises I thought of, like doing more of a "band of heroes" from other games more like the Justice League that try to correct events from other game worlds from their timelines diverging into dangerous paths, or maybe taking more underrated anime at the time than DBZ and trying to infuse game crossovers with a tonal shift more reserved for inspirations like Fullmetal Alchemist or The Slayers or something like that.
There are so many better things to do, but no, everyone just has Mario and Luigi fighting Bowser then Sonic and Tails show up and then Mecha Sonic always shows up, and they're always the same. I would have done something like put the characters in a new original world, or think of some new character to pose a different galactic or space-time level theat, or take that aforementioned Justice League approach or just take inspiration from more things than just Dragon Ball, One Piece and My Hero Academia every time and rehashing scenes from MarioBrosZ over and over, and using Star Road and Chaos Emeralds as macguffins with Mecha Sonic being recycled every time.
Also: I keep seeing several other animators (at least three of them) chiming in the comments touting their own series as being "original, unique, and not SMBZ ripoffs!", but then I go to all of their channels and find that all of their series are basically just SMBZ but with a third crossover added in on top of Mario and Sonic. One of them wasn't even just using Metallix, but also had the wolverine claw Koopatrol and the Axem Ranger Mega Man edits, too. Literally all three of them also did the usual SMBZ ripoff thing where they think it'd be original to have someone other than Shadow accompany Sonic, even though all it does is add bloat to the cast and increase the animators' workload. If anything, I'm pretty sure there's more SMBZ clones that try to differentiate themselves by putting in Tails, Knuckles, and sometimes even extraneous characters like Amy and Cream than there are knockoffs that just use Shadow like the original. It's not a clever or original subversion anymore. Even despite not being lifted from SMBZ itself, it's just as played out as the tournament, the transformed Bowser fight w/ Sonic interfering, Chaos Emeralds, Metallix, etc.
I get the logic that these concepts could theoretically be fresh if they're used in a different way, but that's really, really debatable. Seeing the same crap over and over again is a hard sell to begin with. Even if someone does use Metallix in a different way.....why use him in the first place? Like, would it really hurt to just find a different villain? Just the presence of some of these characters is boring and tiresome. I'm at the point where I "nope" out of any series the second I see Metallix in a thumbnail. And in the case of SMBZ clones that just add a third series on top of Mario and Sonic; why not just have the new series that's being introduced replace Sonic outright instead of bloating the cast with multiple crossovers? Really don't get it.
This is why me and Koopster canceled SMB Minus, at first I thought I could continue where he left off but improving it as time went on, it turned into a mess of a script which never saw the end of the tunnel, then we tried to remake it, also didn't go well, every idea was either too smbz or trying so hard to not be smbz. I realized only 1 year later that the core problem was the crossover itself in the first place, unless you're really creative, you're bound to grab some smbz elements intentionally or not.
@@MMG2489 Absolutely, I agree 100%. The issue you raised in this video about the sprites was a very good point. There's not really any escaping SMBZ comparisons when it's a Mario/Sonic sprite series. Even if you do everything in an original way, it's going to at least resemble SMBZ on a surface level. The fact that they DO typically end up being SMBZ clones just adds another layer to the problem.
As for your next series, I heard about that in response to a comment I left on the last episode of SMB Minus. Big props to both of you for heading in a better direction. And after watching this video and some of the other critiques videos you've made, I have confidence that you guys are going to be able to pull off something worthwhile. Best of luck with whatever you have planned!
I remember as a kid, enjoying another sprite animated series directly inspired by SMBZ (and running at the same time as the original series) called Mega Sonic Bros AF. It tried to do what SMBZ did and more, not just using characters, elements and plots from Mario, Sonic and Dragon Ball, but also Mega Man, Kingdom Hearts, and, had the series continued, Bleach and Naruto. The very *DAY* they announced SMBZ was officially cancelled, the creator of MSBAF did the same for his own series.
Damn, you do bring up an intresting point. With how sprite animators are sometimes forced into doing similar shots, thank to the limited sprite selection. Never really thought of it that way, but it makes sense.
Also probably doesn't help that
A: Super Mario Bros. Z itself was never finished, so there will always be an itch for it that I think has led a lot of other animators to try to come in and make a spirtual successor to it in an attempt to finish it.
B: Making a sprite series is no easy feat, even for a knock off series. A lot of sprite animators handle every aspect of production by themselves with little help. This can get tiring. Theres a reason why so many animated shows are handled by a team of writers, animators, editors, and directors.
C. They tend to think WAY TOO FAR into their story lifespan despite sprite series goats like Rise of the mushroom Kingdom and Powerstar being finished with barley an hour of runtime for both series combined. Sprite animators want their story to be long and never usually have a thought out plan. I remember SpacePea replied to one of my comments saying that he plans to make his series WAY longer than 10 episodes despite his first episode being the length of 5 22 minute episodes. This is very unrealistic and the series should end at around episode 5.
D. They tend to reboot their series instead of simply continuing where they left off. Fans are usually fine eith this but never consider the implication of us waiting at least a year to see something we've already seen before rather than a long awaited continuation.
I agree entirely.
Story telling is definitely my biggest ick in sprite animations. It’s just a quick way to get some attraction, no real passion put behind the work. And that’s why they never make it past Episode 2. Great video meme man, congrats on 1k subs!
5:01-5:20 man, I’m so glad me from 3 years ago when I first started sprite animating decided to ditch this chain of predictable story events for my sprite series and do someone different for its first episode I actually DID decide to make, at least for everything except having Mario, Sonic and even Kirby be the main characters XD
This is the single most clever plug I think I’ve ever seen.
YOOO IM IN A MEME MAN VIDEO
MOM GET THE CAMERA
Hi there
I think the biggest problem is in fact the limitations. The only way to truly get rid of this problem is to make more custom sprites and that’s a much harder task than most people believe. Making a single sprite alone can take hours to do.
Reasons why most animators now of days dont want a mario and sonic series cause of how repetitive it is and how much itll get shot down.
I think the """""""""inspiration"""""""" point, choreography-wise, can heavily depend and be scruntinized on a case by case basic. SMBZ's reboot lifts small scenes directly from DBZ/S and One Piece, and I've never seen anyone complain about it or even point it out. A good chunk of the time, I think it's because Mark is pretty good at not making it extremely obvious unlike a lot of the examples in your videos. I don't necessarily have problem with sprite animators doing it either, as long as it's done tastefully and doesn't take me out of the experience. (I think it's fair to say DX crossed this line) "Tracing" I don't have a really big problem with either, as long as it's from official media like comics or the shows or whatever, and not lifted from another fanwork. To me, I don't really see the difference between using officially made sprites of the characters and other drawn/rendered official artwork. It's effectively the same thing at the end of the day. Repurposing professionally made work that you didn't make for your own uses. You can think higher of the animators that are able to do their own artwork. But to moralize it, as I've seen some people do, I don't think is really fair.
My friend and were discussing the general lack of improvement in the mass majority of sprite based people we used to follow a few weeks ago. (One of them being Kaujiking/GojiAsylus) We ended up coming up with the term "DeviantART Syndrome" to describe this, because we primarily saw it there. We concluded that it was likely caused by echo chambers of encouragement, and generally artists who lacked any kind of desire to improve their craft. So I think the points you make are definitely valid generally speaking. Ideally, artists should start out replicating what they know and eventually venture outside of their comfort zones in order to make truly great and unique art/animation. For some reason, this tends to not happen in the sprite animation community. I think it might have to do with animators starting a series first and just aping SMBZ, because that's just what they know, instead of experimenting for a little longer with smaller projects and honing their craft/ideas.
"WAKE UP HONEY, NEW MEME MAN UPLOAD"
*TL;DR:*
I'm glad this video exists because I'm so fucking tired of these SMBZ copycats as well and I think we should just STOP IT with these kinds of creations already and make something else that's simple yet effective and original.
*Long read:*
This was such a good rant video regarding all these damn copycats of SMBZ sprite series.
It's literally the reason as to why I don't ever give into any of these pathetic clones since all of them are basically the same fucking thing.
Like, I get that animating isn't an easy thing to do since each and all of these sprite animations are done by single animators alone.
But is it really that difficult to come up with ORIGINAL STORIES to tell??
A story that isn't SMBZ's story for the fiftieth time???
I swear, man, if you ask me, the last sprite animation series that actually tried to have an interesting and fairly original story to tell was Heroes of the Stars.
Say what you will about that series (heck even I don't care about it nowadays), but despite its flaws and it also plagiarizing scenes from SMBZ, back when it was first a new thing, its story was actually something original and unique.
Yes, its main premise is based off of Paper Mario's story. However, it did not just blatantly ripped it off entirely.
It managed to take that game's story and turned it into something else that makes it different and distinct still.
Something that many other sprite animation series completely fail to fucking do.
Why can't we just move on from trying to make another SMBZ-like series and make something simple yet effective and original?
You don't have to make another series like SMBZ if you wanna make Mario and Sonic sprite characters beat the shit out of each other.
Honestly, I'd prefer watching a plain and simple Character VS Character fight over another SMBZ series clone.
I get more entertainment and even a sense of a story being told from those sprite animations alone.
funny enough I've been doing a restrospective of Heroes of the Stars, go watch that if you're curious
@@MMG2489yeah man.
i just got done watching your HOTS retrospective videos and they were great.
they pretty much summed up my point here.
can't wait to see you make the next part!
So That's why SMBZ and other SMBZ like Series Are just Not as big as they use to be? Honestly that makes a lot more sense, Even that part about Sprite animators being limited never thought about it like that but you make a really good point
You hit the nail on the head with how detailed and important sprite animation is. Some of the important features in animation would be giving this the effort, heart, and soul they deserve, as well as proving quality matters more over quantity. An interesting thing to note at 2:34: this Mario sprite was used six, SIX, goddamn times (seven if you don't include the DX intro). Not only that, but you notice recycled animation not only for Bowser three times in Episode 2, but in other moments throughout Super Mario Bros. DX (Mecha Sonic's legs before picking a Chaos Emerald in Episode 1 and Episode 5 as an example). Even back when he was SmasherBlock, he used it for Super Mario Bros. GT (you notice most of these animations reused from Episodes 1-4) because of Smashinity neglecting the quality of sprite animation.
What's sad is that Smasher can still put on a nice guy face while hiding away the truth. If only he didn't keep lying.
ua-cam.com/video/86j4n6uEO6I/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/G5E7ra3n-HI/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/Fqg_O4JyUU0/v-deo.html
There's that voice we all know and love
Yeeeah I do kinda agree, while I do love SMBZ, it is kinda bothersome that most people just try to copy what it already did or something.
Not that these sorts of shows can't be good or something but, people have seen the format before.
These are all really good points being made.
Having the sprites be the same all across different videos makes sense since they use the same sprite sheet. But the story being nearly identical to SMBZ is where it gets into plagiarism.
There needs to be much more creativity behind the stories. And if they're really dedicated, they could always create their own sprites so that they're not always restricted to the Super star Saga and Sonic DX ones. They could even release the newly made sprites for the public to use too. Of course, animating is really hard. So making sprites for each individual character would be an absolute nightmare. 😅
This was one of my motivations to get back into animating. Also, thank god for Sonic the Dark Form existing, and Unknown Chaos being the first Sprite Series to actually finish
You want to know why unknown chaos actually finished....because the creator didn't waste years of his life rebooting something that the fans already consider good.
@@anhillary9345 I wanna be like him
@@anhillary9345 Are you throwing shade at SMBZ or SMBDX? Cause Mark has explained his reasoning for rebooting Z and Smashshitty’s content was never good.
@@crumpscrumbs smashinity is an ecception. He had to reboot because of his plagiarism.....and he still plagiarized after the rebooting but just ignores it.
I mean.......I'm just saying, we would have been on episode 11 or 12 if the smbz wasn't rebooted. Now we have to wait at least a decade to simply get back to where we were. And it's not just smbz. Many sprite animators reboot their series for no reason other than "better animation," or SOME changes in storyline, when it would be better to simply see the improvements in those aspects while the series continues. Look at super mario bros minus. It's getting reboot for the 3RD TIME just because the creator got better with animation. If that series wasn't ever rebooted, we would be on episode 7. Asylusgoji91 remade smb hots episode 1 and 2 multiple times, for no reason really.
@@crumpscrumbs I haven't been here to see it at the time, so do you mind telling me why Haynes rebooted SMBZ?
I also feel like animators keep on rebooting the series instead of just continuing.
The fact that mark has depression and he sees these clones probably makes it worse because it's like "someone else is ripping me off" sometimes you can be influenced by someone but being inspired is much different than ripping them off. There's plenty of dragon ball z/super stories you can retell using mario and sonic.
At least Super all star bros and Worlds in danger and SSS Show Heroes of the stars did things different
One problem I usually have with smbz clones is that they always focus on the Mario side of the crossover and don’t have a balance between the two series so it gets repetitive quickly.
“Episode 1 has Mario & co having a picnic, a race or a tournament before bowser crashes it, kidnaps the princess and/or Mario fights him, bowser powers up, Mario starts losing then Sonic shows up to help Mario beat bowser” which is usually at the end of first episode but sometimes it takes until the second episode for him or any other sonic characters to show up in the story.
The original smbz kinda had this problem as well though not a big as a deal as it was the first sprite series to have a Mario and sonic crossover that was really enjoyable to watch and Ambitious for the time, it also created one of the most popular fan favourite Iterations of mecha sonic that still appears in other sonic sprite animations.
It has sonic showing up at the end of episode two and you have to wait until episode three to have an explanation of how they’re here in the first place, it’s a bit slow at the start compared to how fast the revival is but that’s mostly because the earlier episodes were a lot shorter than the later ones and since it’s shown to be a mystery as to why they are there which adds to the story and since it was the first time it was done, it worked. But in smbz inspired series we already know why sonic is here so the mystery is lost and its time wasted on not developing his character, sometimes the story would start from sonic’s perspective showing how he and his friends got to Mario’s world which would make you think it going to focus more on the sonic characters this time but it quickly goes back to Mario being the main focus for the series.
The story either has only sonic & Mario be important to the plot due to too many characters being introduced at the start making hard to flesh them all out or they stick to the Mario cast with having sonic(and maybe shadow) being important to the story which makes it too similar to smbz, the sonic characters (besides sonic & shadow) don’t do anything to further the story except to increase the amount of side characters that appear in the background to exposit information to the audience.
To me the most popular villain that ever came out of this series and has become the face of smbz, is mecha sonic. Who is used as a crutch by the animators since instead of using different villains from sonic’s franchise, they usually resort to having mecha as the final boss for sonic’s series without giving any other villains some spotlight. They use a lot of Mario’s villains but only use eggman(barely)and mecha sonic, there are some other fan favourite sonic villains that should be considered as a main villain as well and if you want to have him in the storyline, have mecha appear as metal sonic at the start of the story and have him transform into mecha later on and becomes a main enemy to give other villains more time to shine early on in the story would be a good idea. But since he was in the original series they feel like they have to include him in every sprite animated series inspired by smbz without trying something new with the formula.
As far as focusing on the mario side, I feel as if there is not enough representation when it comes to the mario characters. Think about it, we only get Mario, Luigi, and sometimes Yoshi, while sonic gets him, Shadow, Knuckles, Tails, Amy, Silver, and more. Wario and Waluigi are usually treated as jokes and are NEVER important in any way. Peach (despite being able to go on adventures and defend herself) stays in her castle at all times or gets kidnapped. Daisy rarely exists. Toad straight up DOESN'T EXIST!! The Donkey Kong characters are usually planned for very late in the story so they never end up getting any screen time (the only time I remember them having importants is in Godzilla vs Koopzilla). This might be because for some reason, mario and luigi aren't allowed to speak, which leaves very little room for character development and also makes Wario, Waluigi, Yoshi, DK, Diddy, most of the kongs, all not able the speak. To be honest, a lot of sprite animators straight up don't know how to do "silent mario" right. Series like smbz actually make him and luigi have expression and character put in the them, but MANY series have their character and personality be no different than a brick wall, to the point where I forget they are even there and ask myself "isn't mario supposed to be the main character?"
Also, Bowser is literally the ONLY Mario villain that's actually taken seriously, while the sonic series has Mecha sonic, eggman, scorge, nazo, selakoom, and more fanmade or comic villains (super All-Star bros is the prime example of this).
Another thing I noticed was that smbz was probably the only mario and sonic sprite series that had shadow apart of the main cast. All the copies had tails and knuckles, as well as having all of the sonic characters alive. People might think that it's being more unique, because it was.....until more...and more....and more series came out having that same team of 6 line up, making these sprite series really just copies of eachother more than copies of smbz.
Honestly, I feel like the sonic characters do WAY more than the mario characters when it comes to furthering the plot (since there are usually only 3 mario characters while there are like 10 sonic characters).
@@anhillary9345 to be honest I didn’t notice that they only used Mario, Luigi and yoshi for the Mario side in all of the copies and don’t have other Mario characters as apart of the main cast because they’re all so similar and don’t deviate that much from each other that I start mixing them together (I believe toadsworth only appears in one of them) and I only focused on the sonic cast, the last one I watched was super Mario bros DX back when it was popular and I stopped after episode three so having more sonic characters back then was still original, not that it matters because “random tangent” they’re wasted in that series and are only used to further the plot without actually being given any character development outside of sonic himself, the fight scene in the forest (which meme man did a video on) only exists because Amy doesn’t notice a cliff in front of her, knuckles is only there to get beaten up by mecha sonic in place of yoshi and doesn’t do anything before or after that and tails is only there to say smart things and fly the tornado (tails’s whole existence in the story undermines egads since you don’t need two smart characters who do the exact same thing).
Smbz only had sonic,shadow,eggman and mecha sonic for the sonic side which balances out Mario’s side which has Mario, Luigi, yoshi and bowser with some supporting characters, eggman only appearing briefly in episode four in flashback and episode eight obscured in darkness so sonic, shadow and mecha were the only ones who were important to the story but it made it easier for the story to highlight them without them being pushed into the background.
And when it comes to the sonic characters, they’re not immune to being written as one note: sonic is mostly himself since he gets the most screen time out of all of the sonic characters due to being the secondary protagonist but everyone else, I don’t really remember them or their personalities since there isn’t any focus on them outside the main plot so they’re written to be generic, “tails is the smart one who expositions a lot, knuckles is strong but dumb, Amy likes sonic and is kind to people and shadow is just vegata who whines and complains that everyone is too soft and only shows up to be cool. They also only use the same villains such as bowser, bowser jr, the koopalings, eggman and mecha sonic while filling in the blanks with a bunch of one-off villains who aren’t taken seriously like you said, with super all-star bros using more sonic villains like scourge, nazo and selakdoom, characters who are really popular and are taken seriously in their respective series all showing up alongside mecha sonic (who is still here despite being overused and the fact that they’re enough villains in the story) it creates the problem of having too many villains that giving them proper screen time is more difficult (don’t get me started on the original villains for the series).
super all-star bros also has the problem of overall having too many characters to focus on which clutters up the story as well as including a third franchise in the mix (freedom planet) which results with needing even more characters and it will slowly start to pile up until there are too many characters and will have to relegate most of them into being in the background. None of the copies have a balance between the two franchises, with having too many sonic characters, the Mario cast get left behind or they have to relegate the wider sonic cast into the background in order to give the Mario characters some screen time which results in them being underused and only using the same set of characters instead of mixing and matching. Why not have rouge or cream in place of Amy and sliver in place of shadow, give the Mario characters…more character, have other Mario characters appear in the story either in more important roles or just be apart of the cast, have bowser and eggman not team up at the start be competing against each other in who can get the emeralds first, have the main cast go to daisy’s kingdom to help her fight king boo who has a chaos emerald or something making him a threat to the heroes, have more Mario villains who aren’t just filler, have the Mario characters get sent to sonic’s world instead and have him be the main character with his villains taking a more prominent role, have selakdoom be the main villain instead of mecha sonic for the thousandth time, there are so many things you can do with this crossover but no one’s really scratched the surface of how much could potentially be done in a sprite animated series.
@@charliemulcahy9200 It's crazy that the only characters in smb dx that seem to have actual care is Sonic and Shadow (maybe and I mean MAYBE Knuckles). All of the sonic characters are usually one note or their to just progress the story, and if they are one note, then the mario characters are definitely one note. I remember the scene in smbz reboot ep 2 when luigi was telling the gang about what happened to Yoshi. GOD DAMN THAT WAS DONE SO PERFECTLY. It's just that people don't know how to write muted characters and just end up making mario and luigi just stand there listening to the sonic characters talk to eachother.
Smbz had a good balance of the 2 sides. Mario had his world, more characters and side villains, Sonic only had 4 character that pushed the plot forward and had the story revolve around them. It becomes a problem when you add a lot more sonic characters and villains while the Mario characters just stick to 4 (mario, luigi, yoshi, and bowser) while still having little interaction, and STILL MAKING MECHA SONIC THE MAIN VILLAIN. I love sasb, but that series suffers from this as well. He added Scourge, Nazo, and Selakoom as serious villains who are at the same threat level as mecha sonic. The mario series, just make bowser slightly stronger and save him for later.
I would definitely like to see more combinations of characters and not just stick to the normal mario luigi yoshi sonic tails and knuckles team of 6. It would make series much more refreshing.
Literally JUST realized my 1st episode of my series is essentially the classic “picnic episode”.
This was before I knew anything about DBZ or the fact the elements were directly tied to the anime -- I loved SMBZ because as a kid it felt like the only one of its kind in terms of great story, amazing fighting, comedy in all the right places and convincingly written characters. That energy still holds up to this day even knowing what I know now. What I would GIVE for another special something like that. NOT another SMBZ, but another project with as much passion and the feeling of stumbling upon a legacy.
The SMBZ Clones have been stale for a long time now, it's only Recently that people have caught on
and thats sad, cuz there are so many other series out there that can be looked at but no one does cuz it's not a SMBZ Clone
The God speaks about clones of SMBZ :0
One other thing people don't also take to account is the fact that sprite animation series have to be limited to JUST Mario and Sonic, sometimes together in a series or separate. I get they're like the mount rushmore of gaming but it becomes too much when we're just stuck with that. How many other franchises of media got included in a sprite series in the past decade? Kirby? Even then we barely see much of it, it's a shame too because there's been so many games that have a bunch of detailed and outstanding sprites for the past 3 decades all being remixed or improved upon to be posted in the Spriters Resource, only to be ignored for the 10000000th SMBZ knockoff Mario and Sonic sprite sheet
I recommend watching "If smash bros was realistic" 1 and 2. Such amazing and funny watches. Also this sprite series called "cosmic." It's a little "ok" at the start, but really ramps up as the series goes on.
Funnily enough Kirby has a sprite-based analogue horror series that is AWESOME
@@aubueruser7228what's it called?
SMBZ's popularity and success was practically a "lightning in a bottle" moment. It showed up out of left field, took the internet by storm with it's plot and once it was canceled folks tried to either make something similar or continue the story in some capacity.
Keyword being "tried" because eventually those trying to make something original still ended up making a copy of SMBZ right down to the plot being a near one-to-one copy. And then the folks who *did* get praised for their creation ended up getting analyzed to the point where it's revealed that they straight up stole specific scenes as well as stealing dialogue from the works of others on top of other issues with either their project, themselves or even a mix of both.
You don’t need to say “the folks” we know you’re talking about Smashshitty during that 2nd paragraph
@@crumpscrumbsexactly, he's literally the only one.
unlike alot of sprite animators, my inspiration for sprite animations and a series i *might* make comes from numerous old sonic sprite series from the 2000s, such as Sonic Quest for Power and Dawning of Darkness, and, if they count, Sonic RPG and Final Fantasy Sonic X
and if i were to make my planned series, it wouldnt take anything from SMBZ, we already seen that, more times than we can count, same plot, same characters, SAME ANTAGONIST, everything
when making a sprite series, it'd be best to ask yourself "what did sprite series NOT do" and/or "what did SMBZ NOT do?"
Or simply think "How could I make my story unique and something that I can be proud of because of something I came up with."
Honestly, I just want a Sonic sprite series that has literally NOTHING to do with any Super Mario Bros sprite series at all
See what I think needs to be done and what I think would help a lot of these sprite series is for the animators to make their own sprites. I know making sprites is difficult, but if you can make your own custom sprites or commission an artist to do so you solve the entire problem of being limited to an existing spritesheet. Suddenly you have a lot more freedom to craft an interesting narrative because the sprites are no longer just ripped from Resource, they're your own. This also means that all the characters in a crossover series can look the same.
Imo spriters resource should be used as a reference for making custom sprites rather than just outright using the original animations.
This. This ALL THE WAY!
I’m truly baffled that more people aren’t aware that even Mark had to use Custom Sprites later on in SMBZ, from as notable as Fire Sonic to as tiny as a couple of pixels.
God knows Mecha Mario wouldn’t have existed if Mark didn’t make custom sprites
0:23 yeah honestly I was confused regarding, when does the inspiration becomes a copy? when does a homage becomes plagiarizm.. and well in this case I have mixed feelings since the anitmaton itself its not tracing drawings but the coreography of the fight, I am not an animator but its easy to see the parallels, thanks for adressing this topic, lets hope more animators learn from these issues
I watched this video mostly out of curiosity at first, but when I thought about it during the whole thing, your points made a lot of sense.
In conclusion, I had one of those, "Quite frankly, I agree" moments.
This video is so true to the point where it's crazy especially the title! The concept of the Curse is on point
Ik it's not the main point, but in terms of re-used sprites I think one weird solution, which would take a much longer time though is to make digitalised drawings (like with the sprites for Capcom vs Marvel).
It's a slightly easier way than making a sprite from scratch (sure, you make the DRAWING from scratch, but at least it's much easier).
I was thinking of making a inspired series of SMBZ, but I always wonder what the plot should be. But the main issue is, I don’t know what it should be, I was thinking of Bowser being the main villain or some other character other than Mecha Sonic.
It’s really not easy making a plot for a SMBZ clone.
The hardest part of a Sprite series would be the animation. Without question.
There’s a reason people can chug out 1
Fanfic chapter a week regularly but even someone with a team like JaidenAnimations takes about 3 weeks to a month for 1 video.
4:56 - 5:20 I'm glad that with my fan series I decided to make difference and take only inspiration on SMBZ, with different protagonists and antagonists, different plot etc. etc.
I cannot deny that in my last episodes 4 to 6, I did similar to SMBZ 😂 I loved too much the scenes where the heroes goes to Bowser's Ship and attack him that I made my """"own"""" interpretation. Well my fan series take inspiration from many franchaise (writed at the ending), beacuse the plot it's not Bowser as main villain (well I can't say more, or else will be spoilers!).
Who knows if my fan series will be considered intresting or not, is up to the viewers!
L promotion
Well good for you. Just… try not to make it too predictable and too clichè.
I feel like a big part of the issue is that it seems almost obligatory at this point for every Mario-related sprite series to be a Sonic crossover. Yes, the fact that all of them end up copying SMBZ wholesale doesn't help matters, but I feel like a lot of the symptoms of the problem come just from the crossover nature alone. Even if the plot is completely different, an anime-esque Mario/Sonic crossover is going to draw comparisons to SMBZ regardless of whether or not it starts with a tournament and a Bowser fight and Metallix is there.
People need to just pick and choose a series and stop cramming others in unnecessarily. Mario is a near-40 year old multimedia franchise. It doesn't need Sonic or anyone else to prop it up. There's more than enough potential to tell a story in the Mario universe without having Sonic the Hedgehog magically warp to the Mushroom Kingdom.
The crossover issue has gotten to the point where it'd actually be more fresh to see another sprite series that's just Mario, and that's pretty much the complete opposite of every other fandom. Usually crossovers are something special, but with Mario, it's the norm. And there's no reason for it to be.
Though I also gotta say that the reaction to the death of SMB Calamity was a refreshing and reassuring one, and I'm glad more people seem to be seeing the issue with the state of Mario sprite animation. We've had over a decade of animators wasting potential just making clones of the same series over and over again. Taking SMBZ and adding even more Sonic characters or crossing Mario and Sonic with Kirby, Undertale, Freedom Planet, or whatever else doesn't make it fresh again. It's still a story we've already heard being retold for the dozenth time.
This is an issue that should've been tackled at least 7 years ago, but I'm happy backlash is finally starting to mount.
@@firstnamelastnamesbI recommend watching smb the mushroom hero. All the episodes are on newgrounds.
Don't know how this escaped me when first uploaded, but this is facts.
5:31 - 5:42 Especially right here. This shows why so many are pretty much done with the SMBZ-styled format. Nothing is initially wrong with using similar characters, similar sprites and poses, etc. But when nothing new is really being shown with it, it's basically just rinse and repeat.
Some other commentors made good points also. There are multiple franchises out there to adapt stories off of, but thanks to SMBZ and it's influence, people tend to go with the most recognizable. And it can be one's downfall as a result. It's always nice to try and think outside the box with this stuff, if even just a little.
Kind of makes me glad I went in the direction I did for Super Star Legacy thus far.
3:30 got I fucking resonate with spacepea on this so much.
It ain't easy.
Biggest curse to smbz is THEY NEVER FINISH THEIR SERIES
And the fact that the creator of SMBZ is racist, rude and butthurt to his own fans.
@@dr92hmc99X huh since when???
@@dr92hmc99X .......what??
@@dr92hmc99X you're only saying such rude things to Mark Haynes only to make people like Smashinity/Smasherblock, a dirty plagiarist and animation thief look better.
All the SMBZ clones keep getting cancelled.
I use to have my own sprite series like this until a friend of mine warned me about this whole information and I’m glad that i stopped and wanted to make something else, but good thing I didn’t made a series like that but I’m planning on making a different sprite series then the smbz inspirations
i think the reason a lot of them follow the same story beats is because the old series got cancelled around episode 8-9 and people really wanted to see how it ended. so, the first person to do a similar style tried to answer that question and had to start with a very similar story to do it.
then it just became the norm from there.
That’s why when I see a new sonic and Mario show I always roll my eyes, because they are all so similar. Also the point of everyone quitting I think has to do with the projects they make: if a show you are making doesn’t have anything unique or truly yours, then you are going to lose passion to even animate anything for it. Because you didn’t really do anything interesting with the idea that hasn’t been done before.
Man I cannot remember the last time I watched a Mario and Sonic sprite animation. Last one I watched SMBDX but I legit only got to episode 2 before I stopped.
It really does suck that stuff like this plague the sprite animation community. SMBZ will always be dear to our hearts, but we need to learn that we don’t have to relive our history over and over again.
SMBZ popped off because it was unlike anything that was seen at the time with Mario and Sonic characters. And as much as I want to say we just need to create something new and unique. It is easier said than done like in this video said, there are many other limitations that make people find any ‘shortcuts’ (using that term loosely) to make the process easier. If something worked before, why not do it again?
This problem isn’t going to get fixed for a long time or it might not even be fixed at all. It will take a lot of time and work to create something new with the limitations that you have. But I do believe it’s possible. I do hope that one day a Mario and Sonic sprite series find it’s wings and spread them. New story beats, plot points and other things, that can really make it unique and stand on its own feet.
Been my gripe for years now. It's the fastest and simplest way to get views. I went with a cast of majorly Fan Characters with almost zero ties to the main cast (You don't even see them until the series is almost over), outside of universe and setting. Storytelling is key, and most have gotten stale at this point.
"Plagiarism is the merest form of flattery," however you're kinda right about how the "same formula" has been use for almost every series, and don't use originality with their creations and l understand that l may have a few suggestions here and there but it's original than using another emerald arc.
It's Mario fighting a cloud man, and fighting a RPG God including a horrific twist...and it's manga form in a way?
4:10 that’s what I’m most terrified about when I’m about to make a sprite series of my own when the perfect time comes
1:32
Ayyyy two of my friend's sprites made it to the vid!
Good vid tho I agree with your points on how stale it gets due to the overall economy of these types of vids smbz and even those outside of it
4:29 About Mario & Sonic Worlds in Danger...or no, really SMB The Phantom Mushroom goes now for 8 episode...
This video somewhat reminds me of some mario and sonic series I did with my cousin that's literally called "Mario vs Sonic" which was less clone-like but more amateur and I'm semi-glad that It became nothing more than that
I know this doesn't have anything to do about smz but this makes me remember of the quadriology of "mario vs sonic" gmod animations
I do see your points in most things here. But honestly I’m here & there for all the action & characters & sometimes the story’s to
If I ever learn to make Sprite series, I'd call it Luigi's Bizarre Adventure and have Mecha himself be the maguffin rather than the main villain
I wonder if a change in visual medium can help with a good chunk of these issues.
Meme Man welcome to the 1k subs group 🎉
They could always shake things up. Make Mario and Sonic get captured, forcing Luigi and Tails to step up. Both known "Cowardly" characters having a chance to step up and get into the spotlight. Heck, use villains from other medies, pick a villain from Kirby from example or something. SMBZ is great, but there's so much more it can be done.
I'd say to be fair to it all, people wanting to basically make SMBZ but X feels like a lot of people wanted more of it after AlvinEarthworm cancelled it out of what was essentially a I LITERALLY CAN'T EVEN mental episode along-side fan pestering as is per the norm (and then kept cancelling each reboot after the 2nd to 4th episode every time he attempted to reboot it). And I would feel bad if it wasn't for A.) the kind of drama llama the guy could be at times even if some don't see it in public, and B.) the "interesting" thing he clearly wants to do way more than sprite animations (hint: the thing Sonic's community is known for that isn't fangames and the thing attached to your leg, you should be able to put it together from there) that he flocks back to every time he clearly has an episode and wants to be just left alone for eons.
I dont want to sound obsessed with this one series i like talking about, but this is why i like Dimension Saga, its way more original while still having Mario and Sonic in a crossover (and then some).
Sure Dimension Mix Up was pretty much an emerald hunt and had Mecha Sonic in it, but the plot points and events, from beginning to end, were way different than the common Sonic saves Mario trope in the first episode of "yet another flash series".
What's Dimension saga? Im curious.
@@anhillary9345 Dimension mix up, Dimension Takeover, and Dimension Obliteration. Search those up in that order.
As a starting lore concept, I can guess that in Sonic's world, all 7 chaos emeralds are at Robotnik's base and Sonic is trying to stop him. Robotnik's plan is to use all 7 chaos emeralds to get rid of them by opening a knee-dimensional portal. But then Sonic accidentally kicks metal sonic into the reactor, destroying the entire base along with Robotnik and metal sonic, but the rest are sucked into the portal along with the chaos emeralds into Mario's world. More specifically, this would be a different kind of crossover, where instead of Mario and Sonic working together, they would be against each other, because Mario and Sonic know that the chaos emeralds are terminally powerful and don't trust the sonics. Then others in Mario's world will find out this information and everyone will try to get the emeralds.
For me, it’s “why is it always Mario and Sonic?” Or “why does it need to be like DBZ?”
I’m sure other stories can be done
In the past, some fans did retelling of dbz with either mario or Sonic. Just do that, and it won't be a clone. You have super, super dragon ball heroes, and fighterz. You could retell those with mario and Sonic, and it would be cool. If i did a smash animation, i would base both moro and gronalah arc instead of doing with alvin is doing
And why do they always start with a fighting tournament at the beginning?
I've been a fan of sprite animations ever since I was 10. I just turned 23. I've always wanted to make sprite animations and I am slowly learning how Flash works. But I'm not interested in making a series. I just want to make fun fights and the like. But you've struck every point that makes me hesitate making bigger projects. Seeing every new sprite series be shut down after 1-3 episodes is really common and disappointing. No one seems to realize that making an animation (especially ones more than a few minutes long) requires MUCH more work than it lets on.
I recently watched SMB DX, and was VERY disappointed with the amount of plagiarism in the series. Not only that, it's just... so boring. More than 50% of the fights in that series are plagiarized, which is just... How?! SMBHoTS was fine for the first... 7-ish episodes. Then it just had gallons of filler and far too much dialogue and too little fighting. Everything else is just... Not worth watching. No offense to anyone trying to make a series of this magnitude, I know how difficult it has to be.
Please, make something original, and don't plagiarize.
I don't watch many other Mario and Sonic sprite animation much. So I was quite suprised to see that it's a pretty common occurrence.
I remember this one that was a clean exception to this topic that I feel like you have seen...
I don't remember the name, but, it was all Mario characters and none from Sonic and... Princess Shroob was the villain.
As for the actual topic at talk here...
I won't lie when i say that I was on the same train as that guy's comment.
Sprite animation requires... a ton of dedication and time.
You have none to spare, you can't do it.
Edit: I just checked on your channel to discover that you've *indeed* talked about it before and now I feel dumb-o. :0
Alas, I will watch it immediately. :D
Super Mario Bros Heroes of the Stars, I've literally made videos regarding this series
Another thing I've noticed is that every single sprite series I've seen gets cancelled. I don't know what the point to making a series is if it's gonna get cancelled. For once I'd just like one sprite series that has a begining middle and end
2:36 You know than Ryo Morisaki really improve this sprites before? I think Smashinity goes further beyond with this plagiarism thing...I mean, its a pity even in his intro series is a reference to Ryo Morisaki, compinche...
Tbh I hope you stick with voice recorded videos. I love your silent text based take downs of DX and HOTS episodes but the way you narrate makes your videos very engaging.
I'd kill to have a Mario & Kirby series similar to this
There is one
It got cancelled
@@CassiusStelar :(
@@CassiusStelar Do you mean Super Star Legacy?
@@harryshum4139 correct
SMBZ is so cool it's influence remakes and other animations, and even Like DBZ it repeat the the story in every game kk
With how easy it is to plagiarize sprite animations (even if unintentionally), it's one reason I'd prefer to use 3D models with SFM or Blender if I had time to dedicate to making animations.
Frustrating enough, I have one idea of a 3D animation, depicting a Smash Tournament with Mario and Bowser. Make it a harmless short where the two are duking it out. Got the Bowser camp on one side, and a bunch of toads on the other.
I'd emphasize that Mario's powerful, but has to build up momentum to hit Bowser, while Bowser can just hit like an 18 wheeler. Bowser wins the first round, and he's actually disappointed. Demands Mario to get up, the plumber at first grabs a Fire Flower, and considers using it. But tosses it to the side, and uses an Ice Flower, because I have yet to see anyone make a fight with Mario or Luigi wielding an Ice Flower.
Rearmed, Ice Mario starts throwing snowballs to counter Bowser's fire. At one point, Mario hurls a block of ice, Bowser attempts to eat it; only to have a hard time breaking it with his teeth. Mario takes advantage, punches Bowser in the gut, the Koopa King spits out the block. But the Mario grabs the ice block, and whacks Bowser with it like a beer bottle.
Honestly, when you change what kind of powerups Mario uses, it can change how you animate a fight.
Impressed and annoyed, Bowser decides to go overkill, and with Jr's help, transforms into Fury Bowser. Mario uses the Ice Flower to evade the plumes of fire, while attempting to slow Bowser. Mario eventually grabs a Giga Cat Bell, and it turns into a kaiju battle.
And that's the farthest I thought this out.
so should i be glad i never really got into SMBZ when i was little now?
If they like SMBZ so much, why not make episode 9, and follow all the way up to 15 before making a new saga?
1:56
Yeah, I tried looking for Baby Mario Sprite Sheets before, NO LUCK
With that much sprite series about Mario and Sonic kicking butt, it's such a fascinating wonder why that the likes of BlazBlue and Guilty Gear don't catch their eye.
The fact even the SMBZ ripoff series aren't completed is ironic in itself.
también hay que recordar que muchas de estas series son reinterpretaciones de la historia de SMBZ hasta con los nombres se nota eso, pero para esas series deberían usar el concepto de archie con el crossover entre mario y sonic, osea eggman y bowser se odien entre sí o que la hojalata es quien secuestra a peach y mario lo confunde con sonic o dejar que mecha (barra metal) sonic sea el villano principal de la serie de turno sería mejor que sea un villano secundario o antagonista de la serie o o usar a la hermandad de metallix
Existen series como una donde tiene tres crossovers con Mario Sonic y Dragon Ball, pero que el villano es original.
@@NanamiGaming205 también hay uno con mario, sonic y kirby otro con muchos personajes de otras franquicias
Honestly i wondered why the formula kept repeating... They are still entertaining but why is it ALWAYS nearly the same cast? Can we see other characters hold their own in a fight??? I guess its just following the formula because it rakes in views, but theyd really wow people if they changed up the script.
and this is the reason why i grew out of watching sprite animations entirely. i've gotten fatigued by them after awhile and it's made worse that they always end with no conclusions at all
Mario And Sonic Worlds In Danger? 10 episodes. no conclusion
Mega Sonic Bros AF? 5 episodes. no conclusion, and the "Mega Sonic Bros AF Movie" was never posted
Sonic And The Dark Emeralds? 3 episodes. no conclusions
Sonic GX? 12 or 13 episodes. and no conclusion because the creator openly DESPISES Sonic as a franchise now
im also not a fan of how these sprite animations try to be like Dragonball Z from the premise and Shadow is always portrayed as the Vegeta stand-in for these videos
Part of the problem could be that because SMBZ was never actually completed, a lot of people want to create something like it in the hopes of completing it. They never do, of course, but it will naturally attract imitators more than a series that exists as a complete work, since it would have nothing significant to improve.
While SMBZ wasn't the catalyst initially, SMBZ did legitimize a change in the way fans conceptualize the Sonic setting. It went from a fun speed-based platformer, to the typical mind-rot of power-scaling debates. The result was a million non-canon alternate forms that just ripped off other Shonen anime tropes (Mostly from Dragonball Z/GT/Super) that didn't really add anything interesting or new, just the same attacks but with increased damage levels. The best, but also worst part, is that with Frontiers, Sonic Team basically confirmed everyone beliefs of how these fights would go, especially with all the Super Sonic boss fights being full of flashy cutscene attacks and beam spam.
What i personally find odd as a guy outside this community is that people are kinda just forgetting that Mark Haynes burned out. Like, dont get me wrong, im not saying that theres anything wrong with the original SMBZ having been cancelled; The series certainly wouldnt have had anywhere near the same influence if Mark kept it light and simple and didnt constantly keep pushing the bar higher and higher. But, ultimately, he burned out.
People seem to just see his accomplishments and decide to do the same thing, but 10x harder from the start and then, shockingly, the same thing happens: they burn out (or they continue with severely lacking quality)
The first episodes of SMBZ werent that grand, and the fact that the time between episodes just from weeks to a whole year goes to show that, yet, those episodes are still FANTASTIC.
Not EVERY episode needs to be HALF AN HOUR LONG. Seriously, are people just disillusioned to the herculian effort it is to create ANYTHING of serviceable quality with a duration of half an hour? Even the average anime episode has a shorter runtime, and like a fifth or a quarter of that runtime is the opening and the ending.
This is why people are skeptical i think. People keep just doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Heres what i learned from the most insanely DEDICATED people to their fan creations (the MLP fandom): the most successful animated series are those which take screencaps from google images and put them together in Windows Movie Maker with text boxes. You will find, several of these. If you have a cool idea for a crossover with MLP, itll have been done in this format, and WOW these have a LOT of episodes.
The MLP fandom has its own boogieman which every couple of years some new starry-eyed group of very skilled people come to tackle: a Fallout Equestria animated adaptation. An animated adaptation of a book with over half a million words.
Well,There is This Series Named Mario Sonic Adventure Where Nazo is The Main Villain.
5:21 What about SMB The Mushroom Hero, Sonic GX...Mega Sonic Bros AF?
I think he means recent sprite series.
oh well@@anhillary9345
Sonic GX was great!
Mega Sonic Bros. AF is kind of a mess.
Idk SMB The Mushroom Hero.
@@anhillary9345 ah
@@CornaOnTheCob all of that are godd
this is it, the vid that'll get you 1k
Look man I just want to see a slice of life mario series where randomly they beat the shit out of Yoshi
tf is wrong with you 💀
@@MMG2489i think it's a super smash bros 64 reference.
Juicy 6 minutes
Back in the 2000s there were people who were making smbz inspired work but instead of copying Mark they did it based of either gt or z. (I believe one person did his own smb called it ball instead of bros gt, and based it on gt, there was a sonic and dragon ball fan who made choas emerald z and based it on the sayian saga, there was another fan who made a mario dragon ball crossover called it super mario ball z and based it on the sayian saga) when alvinsmbz saw them he was impressed and liked them, now he probably hates the people who copy his work. So for new sprite animators you can make your own stories like Mark but try to make it your own idea again you could base it off z or super and hell even super dragon ball heroes or fighterz you can base it off of. If i ever get into sprite animation i would do super smash bros z and base it on the manga arcs until the anime returns (not doing the one now because it's retelling super hero)
You can even base it on other anime's
Its lost media but do you remember Mario and Luigi Millenium Quest? It featured about every villain it seemed
"Plagiarism is just not this common in other forms of media. It's just not".
Music industry: 🤣🤣🤣🤣
If he thinks plagiarism only exists in this media, OHHHH boy; welcome to the real world!
That why I like blue inferno
If you're gonna make something, have passion for it. Even if you leave it hanging for a long time, you know you will finish it. If it gets canceled… just why bother having made it at all?
Interesting video and opinion!
Yo think you could slide me the that custom Sonic sprite sheet used at 2:15? Can't seem to find it anywhere
sure thing, my discord is mememan5378
5:53 The end is the best part of the video ahhahahahaahaha
I'm surprised m64bros didn't show up