Oracle of Ages/Seasons were FANTASTIC games and were packed with so much amazing content. The sheer number of rings that did useful or fun stuff made the game that much more exciting.
True for me too! Those were the only games in the series I played and they were AMAZING! Despite it's great build-up to the end, the linked game ending was a let-down. You face a mindless Ganon instead of your true archnemesis. :(
I think it's also worth noting the "textures" of the oracle game's dungeons. Prior to the jump to 3D, most dungeons in 2D zelda games were borderline identical (some were unique like Thief's Hideout or Eagle's Tower, but that was pretty rare.) Every dungeon in the oracle games had an interesting feel to them & dungeon gimmick, which was probably influenced by OoT & MM.
I’d say it’s the opposite honestly, every dungeon seems like the same aside from a few noteworthy examples (jabu-jabu’s belly and the ancient ruins) they rely a lot on the same ideas, like that round switch in a 4 entrance room or minecart, it makes all of them look the same and I have a hard time remembering them as opposed to a link to the past and link’s awakening which were way more creative in their ideas for dungeons.
Hey all - thanks for the comments. Appreciate the feedback that i didn't really talk about the Oracle games in as much depth as other games. That's fair - i apologise and will make sure future episodes are more squarely focused on the specific games in the title. just to explain where i'm coming from - this is literally a documentation of my ongoing understanding of how nintendo makes dungeons. so while it might seem like a review or a retrospective on the games (and i can only blame myself for setting it up like that), it's really about my research. but hey - no reason it can't be both. so next episode you can be sure i'll go into a lot of depth on wind waker's dungeons. if i mention the shadow temple in that episode you can shoot me.
Can't you redo the episode to talk just a little more about the games at least? I feel like the dungeons deserve just a little more focus. Like talking about the differences between how dungeons are structured in comparison to each game.
You're PURE quality in all your videos. This was no exception. Thanks for all the work you've been doing. I also love how you draw the dungeon layouts to explain the design flawlessly. You draw them yourself?
The Ages/Seasons games rarely top people's favorite Zelda games lists, but they'll always be my favorites. The overworld also changes depending on which animal you choose, adding even more variety to the game each time you play.
Interesting! Those are the only two Zelda games I've not played, and the dungeon gimmicks and items seem really unique and cool. I like it when a series tries something new, even if it doesn't work. I really enjoyed the light and dark weapons in Metroid Prime 2, but wasn't a fan of the ammo idea. Maybe (hopefully) future Zelda games could switch up traditional items.
The Ammo is actually super easy to never worry about, things destroyed or killed with the Dark Beam drop Light Ammo often, and vice versa with Light Beam and Dark Ammo, combine this with the fact that you always have Light and Dark Beam open for puzzles and I think its pretty cool
Cloudmonkey Oh yeah, it's definitely cool and I liked that they tried something different, but like you said, the ammo thing never seemed to be an issue which is why it was a little odd.
Dan Root I think it made you think about how you used the Beams in combat, rather then just rushing everything with the Light Beam, you had to think about how you finished fights "Do I finish with Light Beam, or take some weak Dark Shots to try and replenish?" As well as made the Power Beam more useful, since it had no limitation, honestly where you'll run out of Ammo is the Annihilator Beam
Cloudmonkey Yeah that's true. God MP2 was a decent game. I really liked that they took it in a different direction, didn't have any of the standard Metroid staples, and it was the better for it, I think.
Sadly, that’s not really the case. It reuses a lot of songs from link’s awakening and while there are some bangers like tarm ruins, most songs, especially ones from oracle of ages are annoying and borderline bad.
@@voltron77 You chose to disagree over an aesthetic preference. Not only that, but you did it as if you had authority about it. You could have just ignored it dude... (Or thumbs-down'd with rhe proper extension)
@@GldnClaw Nah, because I prefer to start a conversation with somebody and elaborate on my ideas with comments rather than just thumbs downing because I don’t like it. I’m sorry if I came off as rude, but I really do not understand what you are talking about when you say these dungeons have more personality than the dungeons in games like link’s awakening and a link to the past. Edit: sorry wrong comments, yeah let’s talk about the music instead.
@@voltron77 All good. It's been 7 years and I'm currently in a Book of Mormon debate in the comments section on a different video. Might be a long time befor I can address you proper.
Love those diagrams! Great idea to compare dungeons across games. If there are ways to further represent difficulty and so on that would be nice too, but even just what you've made here I'd be happy to have access to in like a wiki or some comparative page. Btw the oracles are my favorites in the series. I hope you'll talk more at length about them..? Anyway, thanks for the excellent work. Big fan
Do you have those graphs posted somewhere? I think they're a really useful tool for thinking about trends and progression, but to get the full benefit, I feel like I'd want to sit and look at them and compare them. When they're flashing by on a video, it's useful for a single level, but I'd like to see them in a layout that invites more detailed review. Even if you don't have a complete set, I think the community might finish it if you released a template. Great video as always. Keep up the good work.
These are great! I really like your graph concept. Please keep them coming.
7 років тому+1
Hey Mark. You should totally publish those graphs and maps of the dungeons along with the explanation on PDF or a guide e-book. All Boss Keys series is pure gold. Not to mention Toolskit's series as well. :)
It's genuinely amazing what good Zelda games Capcom were able to make. Of course, this was Capcom back when they were one of the best 3rd party developers in the world.
Never played any of the handheld Zelda games to completion, except Link Between Worlds, which was EXCELLENT. You've inspired me to go back and play them on my 3DS. Thanks Mark!
I must say, the graph system you made here is a fantastic tool for MAKING dungeons as much as analyzing them. Using this, I can start by making a graph as complex as I want, and then make the actual design around it. It's an excellent starting point for design.
These were actually the Zelda games I grew up with, so it's nice to see them here-- they're rarely talked about. It's nice to see that they came off positively overall. It would be interesting to look at how the overworlds work in the Zelda series as well, as one of the big points of the Oracle games was having two overworlds and switching between them to solve puzzles and access the dungeons. Ages has the past and present, which is a puzzle by itself, and Seasons has Subrosia, which is a much more perilous overworld with lava and stronger enemies. Both games also gate key items behind trading quests-- in this case, the totally optional Noble Sword, which doubles attack power. Curiously, the Master Sword doesn't appear in-game outside of the Secrets mode.
Echoing many of the other comments, I'm a little disappointed. I was so excited to hear your thoughts on these games, and you spent the majority of the video talking about other games and how you can graph them. You gave Ocarina of Time the full ten minutes, but you split roughly three minutes between both Oracle games, when there's so much to talk about.
Loving the series, though I do wish that the videos were longer; I find your analysis very interesting, and I would love to see a full analysis of all dungeons in A Link to the Past (for example).
Regarding the golden floating platform in Jabu Jabu's Belly, an owl statue actually tells you very early into the dungeon that it is floating on water. Felt like pointing that out since that dungeon is my absolute favourite in the series :]
After playing randomizers for these games (and revisiting them on the Switch) I really appreciate how challenging the creators at Capcom made the dungeons without frustrating them.
Watching this series whilst researching game creation and considering making my first game on Unity. I fear it is a bit like listening to Debussy whilst considering learning the piano.
You're talking about macro structure of the Shadow Temple without reference the micro structure of the rooms, which contribute an incredible amount of puzzle solving and creativity. The hidden traps, enemies, and inter-room puzzles (such as the one where the wooden spikes are closing in on you and you have to think quickly to use Din's Flame to burn them before dying) are not even referenced. I could list a dozen more. These factors contribute to dungeon quality just as much as layout.
This is true, you could even say the linearity is completely intentional. When your gimmick is secrets, invisible traps, and invisible objects, limiting the area you can explore the way it does makes a lot of sense. It's not like you always know it at the time either. I understand that he's focusing on a specific and rare type of dungeon design but it does make his analysis' feel lacking in actually telling quality. Especially from how the flaws in layout of Jabu Jabu (ages) that aren't connected to the Water Temple are barely touched upon. How the locks for the boss key are stuck in one place, making the entire dungeon a backtracking key hunt except for the dungeon item (which is only slightly more) many puzzles being all based on doing the same thing at different water levels, and the mechanics of both the mermaid suit and pushing underwater blocks (as well as being the one of the only dungeon items blocked off by a key after the miniboss) shows how those same qualities of non-linearity can lead to very poor design if not supported right. Love the games tho.
This channel is amazing! I've been watching a lot of Extra Credits and love how this shines a laser onto such a specific topic. I'll be watching a bunch more of these! Also, Never a big Zelda fan but I'm gonna give them a shot now.
Though this episode doesn't really focus that much on the Oracle games, the new map system is really useful and cool. Loved how it made it much easier to compare dungeons, especially between different games. Good job on the map system! This was one of the best episodes so far!
I started my Legend of Zelda experience with the Oracle games. My brother had Ages and I had Seasons. My brother is older than my by four years, so we accidentally got the game that worked for someone our age. I was 7 and he was 11. It was my brothers second LoZ game, but for me, it was my first. Playing through the two of the OoX games, I absolutely loved the dungeons. The dungeons in games since just haven't been as fluid (for lack of a better word) for me. I have played all of the games released on a handheld game (made or re-released after OoX). I still think OoX had the best dungeons in the series, or at least, the last time that a game got close in dungeon procedure was Phantom Hourglass. The OoX games really are a good example of amazing dungeon design, and I think they're the best of the series. I just wish you'd mentioned Subrosia in some way or other.
I had thought about the structure when I was little too but I'm glad someone is finally putting it up in writing and in this video. Good video. Great games too. Among the best handheld Zelda games ever made.
Hi MARK, just discovered this channel... it's awesome! You should really make a video on the game LA-MULANA! It's an amazing game with incredibly well done game design and puzzle (maybe be to hard for some people but still)! It's one of my favourite game of all time, but unfortunately few people know it! I'm sure you would like it
The graphs are really cool. For the games I've played, I will try to make my own dungeon graphs, and see how well I did creating it in relation to when you show yours. I will have a fun challenge for myself in the next few months!
One thing you are probably not considering is the nature of the game camera. 2D makes out for easier staightforward puzzle solving, the items and enemies are clearly shown from a bird view so you can connect easily all the stuff, while in a 3D space you have to move around to interact and see stuff. I think this is why 3D games have far less keys and locked doors compared to 2D - it is just visually that much harder to deal with them on a 3D space rather a 2D, where you can rationalize more easily position, distance and obstacles. However, as you pointed out in this video, 3D is useful while dealing with more ambiental puzzle solving like the water temples or anything that involves physics prominently. this is actually why i think Nintendo could afford to make the water temple so hard in OOT: since it was 3D it was a tad easier and more intuitive to solve compared to 2D.
A good way to describe the "unique locks and keys" that you mentioned before would be "organic locks." They're not literal locks and keys, but elements with which you interact with that serve the same function as a key without being so "abstract" as "grab a key, tuck it away in your inventory, unlock the door." I think the water dungeon in A Link Between Worlds does a better job than Jabu Jabu's belly in Ages, despite still being top-down, because you're not going underwater and can clearly see how the water level rises and falls relative to the layered stage geometry. It can be done well in 2D (even though ALBW has 3D graphics, it still has 2D gameplay apart from landscape layering), it just requires a different way of doing it.
The graphs for the dungeons are amazingly good. I'm a level design teacher and I would love if you let me use the first example, Gnarled Root, in one of my classes.
OOT's shadow temple was a nightmare for me as a child, so I was really glad I could speed through its linear setup and get it over with. I always wondered if they designed it that way to reduce the overall amount of horror in the game.
Interesting stuff, I can't believe you mapped out every dungeon as a graph, that must have taken days! That's a clever way to show the structure, it would be cool to have these graphs available as JPEGS somewhere if you don't mind sharing them - would love to compare them in more detail in my own time. Also I always wondered about the epic and complex task of designing these dungeons, I wonder how they go about doing it - they must use something similar to map out the progression initially and then iterate on it, what do you think? I seem to remember there is a dev video for Ocarina of Time or one of the other 3D ones where they use post-its to map out the game's structure. Would be interested in seeing more analysis on this as well! Good stuff Mark.
You're still correct, the Oracle games are the first Zelda games developed outside of Nintendo. Philips never made entries into the Legends of Zelda series, they only signed a contract that would allow them to incorporate characters from the Zelda in Mario series into games for their upcoming CD project with Nintendo (which never materialized). Needles to say, they took advantage of this when creating games for their CDi mediabox. The games are cleverly stripped off any trademarks and only contains character's names in the titles they had licensed from Nintendo.
I would disagree that Oracles makes the design of Link's Awakening more complex. Awakening had such unconventional puzzle design that required out-of-the-box solutions. Walking on top of raised blocks, finding unmarked walls to bomb, throwing the iron ball across barriers in Eagles Tower, and of course bombing a mini-boss from a raised platform in Turtle Rock. Puzzles like these made Awakening much more taxing since the player had to figure out novel solutions, whereas Oracles had much more linear puzzles that could be solved just by progressing through the dungeon. Just my opinion of course.
well, to start off, oracle of ages had the crown dungeon in which it's gimmick was the color blocks, and a good chunk of the dungeon actually had you walking on top of those to complete puzzles, the ancient tomb also had a part where it seemed to be a dead end, but you had to search for a hidden bombable wall. it also elaborated on the block puzzles, having you have to jump from one raised block to another at one point I will say that awakening did have some good puzzles (eagles tower had me stuck for like over an hour), and that they were more out of the ordinary as you said, but don't underestimate the trickery of the oracle games puzzles, they can get really confusing, like with jabu jabus belly.
Admittedly it's been a long time since I played the Oracle games and I first played Awakening recently. I just know Awakening was more difficult for adult me compared to how difficult Oracles was for kid me.
But the Awakening Puzzles were more once you find the puzzle, you have it solved. Meanwhile, the Oracle games say "hey, riddle me this." and it takes you a while to actually get it figured.
Ahhh these are the only old school zeldas I didn't finish! I only ever got a copy of Seasons and I got lost in the over world as a kid and never figured out how to progress. I was pretty far into it too.
At first, I was worried about the idea of changing the visual format in response to whinging commenters upset at how their favorite games are portrayed. By the end of the video, though, I came around on the flowcharts. They simplify the communication of what the original visuals covered, and as you point out, they do so in a fashion that's easily applicable to 2D and 3D games. (And I'm sure they make production a teeny bit easier. ;) )
This video was an amazing introduction to your method and I liked it so much I subscribed to see more later. But it felt more like an introduction to your method than an analysis of Oracle games. I'd absolutely love if you came back to the Oracle games later and did a more focused analysis of them, instead of using them to present your method.
I'm probably the only person that thinks Oracle of Seasons is the best Zelda game ever. I'm biased, though, since it was my very first one, and I loved it so much that I bought most of the series.
Yo, Mark, this Dungeon Layout Graphic system you've made is fucking brilliant. I was actually intending on developing something like this myself for the sake of giving myself an abstracted "building blocks" kit to use when designing the levels of my own game, but you beat me to the punch it seems :P ...which makes sense, considering the idea of such a system came from watching your Boss Keys videos to begin with... but... yeah. Anyway, keep up the good work, man! Expect some patreon donations from me once I have money again :P
Fantastic episode. The Oracles games as so so good. I thought there were my favorite but after I replayed all the Zelda games I came away with liking Majora's Mask best.
All these people be mad about not talking about dungeons, but drawing comparisons. As a guy who can't figure out why he loved these two games and no other zelda games in the same light, those compare and contrast points were brilliant. It's choice. It's item quality. It's also the kick-ass ring system and not having to look around bigass 3d rooms trying to find an unseen component of an otherwise apparent puzzle, BUT all in all I think they presented a simple yet addictive and gradually challenging world with some very well built environments and lore. Ages doubly so, but I love em both to death. By contrast, I played Minish Cap for the first time last year, and I couldn't even tell you what happened for 80% of the damned game. Sigh.
While I understand the criticism you got on this video -- after all, you didn't spend nearly the time of past episodes on the games of this one, and you had two games to cover here -- I think your graph system is such a great idea that I can't hate this video. You probably would have been better off doing a normal episode for the Oracle games and doing a separate episode detailing the graph system and giving examples from Zelda games you've already covered. You certainly uncover a lot by analyzing the dungeon graphs and could have gone more into the ties and differences between these games. All said, this is my favorite episode in this series, if only for the fresh approach to dungeon analysis; I've seen graphs like that used before when talking about level design of "lock & key" dungeons, but usually it's solely for 2D games and the actual map is overlaid with the graph. Presenting the water temple mechanic as a sort of key/door system was particularly interesting. Maybe I'm just a sucker for graphs but I thought this was great!
Randomely stumbled across this series with suggested UA-cam vids. Subscribed and eagerly looking forward to skyward sword as it's my favorite in the series. (No seriously it is)
I think I'm bad at 2D zeldas because I'm used to the 3D ones, so I think in that way. seasons/ages and minish cap are the only 2D ones I can remember actually completing. (Although I'm working my way through a link to the past now)
Religious Bovine! What a tremendous design resource available for FREE here!! I feel bad that some aspiring game designers have to sit in a classroom(and pay cash money!) to learn this...
Your dungeon graphing is similar to old school D&D mapflow evaluations for dungeons: www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?168563-Dungeon-layout-map-flow-and-old-school-game-design
i was kinda hopinbg you bring up the area right before the 8th dungeons boss in oracle of ages that has 4 random obsticles before the boss door but in accuallity its telling yoiu the weakness to each one of his phases
Any chance you could release the art/tools you used to make those graphs? I'd like to take a crack at assembling graphs like yours for a couple of other games to compare them.
I also found it interesting how Link's Awakening relies on the fact that every dungeon room and every area in the game is the same size as the Game Boy's screen, meaning you're always aware of everything that's going on in a certain room/area, much like the first Zelda game. The Oracle games return to what A Link to the Past did, which is that areas and dungeon rooms are much bigger than the system's screen, which means you have to explore to get a full grasp of your surroundings. I like both systems, as they encourage the player's thinking in different ways.
Oracle of Ages/Seasons were FANTASTIC games and were packed with so much amazing content. The sheer number of rings that did useful or fun stuff made the game that much more exciting.
True for me too! Those were the only games in the series I played and they were AMAZING!
Despite it's great build-up to the end, the linked game ending was a let-down. You face a mindless Ganon instead of your true archnemesis. :(
I think it's also worth noting the "textures" of the oracle game's dungeons. Prior to the jump to 3D, most dungeons in 2D zelda games were borderline identical (some were unique like Thief's Hideout or Eagle's Tower, but that was pretty rare.) Every dungeon in the oracle games had an interesting feel to them & dungeon gimmick, which was probably influenced by OoT & MM.
I’d say it’s the opposite honestly, every dungeon seems like the same aside from a few noteworthy examples (jabu-jabu’s belly and the ancient ruins) they rely a lot on the same ideas, like that round switch in a 4 entrance room or minecart, it makes all of them look the same and I have a hard time remembering them as opposed to a link to the past and link’s awakening which were way more creative in their ideas for dungeons.
Hey all - thanks for the comments. Appreciate the feedback that i didn't really talk about the Oracle games in as much depth as other games. That's fair - i apologise and will make sure future episodes are more squarely focused on the specific games in the title.
just to explain where i'm coming from - this is literally a documentation of my ongoing understanding of how nintendo makes dungeons. so while it might seem like a review or a retrospective on the games (and i can only blame myself for setting it up like that), it's really about my research.
but hey - no reason it can't be both. so next episode you can be sure i'll go into a lot of depth on wind waker's dungeons. if i mention the shadow temple in that episode you can shoot me.
Can't you redo the episode to talk just a little more about the games at least? I feel like the dungeons deserve just a little more focus.
Like talking about the differences between how dungeons are structured in comparison to each game.
You're PURE quality in all your videos. This was no exception. Thanks for all the work you've been doing. I also love how you draw the dungeon layouts to explain the design flawlessly. You draw them yourself?
i did, yeah. cheers!
I really like your Graph. What software are you using?
photoshop
The Ages/Seasons games rarely top people's favorite Zelda games lists, but they'll always be my favorites. The overworld also changes depending on which animal you choose, adding even more variety to the game each time you play.
The Gameboy Zelda theme hits me hard in the nostalgia.
Interesting! Those are the only two Zelda games I've not played, and the dungeon gimmicks and items seem really unique and cool. I like it when a series tries something new, even if it doesn't work.
I really enjoyed the light and dark weapons in Metroid Prime 2, but wasn't a fan of the ammo idea.
Maybe (hopefully) future Zelda games could switch up traditional items.
The Ammo is actually super easy to never worry about, things destroyed or killed with the Dark Beam drop Light Ammo often, and vice versa with Light Beam and Dark Ammo, combine this with the fact that you always have Light and Dark Beam open for puzzles and I think its pretty cool
Cloudmonkey Oh yeah, it's definitely cool and I liked that they tried something different, but like you said, the ammo thing never seemed to be an issue which is why it was a little odd.
Dan Root I think it made you think about how you used the Beams in combat, rather then just rushing everything with the Light Beam, you had to think about how you finished fights "Do I finish with Light Beam, or take some weak Dark Shots to try and replenish?" As well as made the Power Beam more useful, since it had no limitation, honestly where you'll run out of Ammo is the Annihilator Beam
Cloudmonkey Yeah that's true. God MP2 was a decent game. I really liked that they took it in a different direction, didn't have any of the standard Metroid staples, and it was the better for it, I think.
Dan Root they're the best Zelda games, or right below A Link to the Past. A big miss there
I forgot how good the music was in the oracle games. Magnificent choice with the Tarm Ruins/Lost Woods theme at the beginning.
Sadly, that’s not really the case. It reuses a lot of songs from link’s awakening and while there are some bangers like tarm ruins, most songs, especially ones from oracle of ages are annoying and borderline bad.
@@voltron77 You chose to disagree over an aesthetic preference. Not only that, but you did it as if you had authority about it. You could have just ignored it dude... (Or thumbs-down'd with rhe proper extension)
@@GldnClaw Nah, because I prefer to start a conversation with somebody and elaborate on my ideas with comments rather than just thumbs downing because I don’t like it. I’m sorry if I came off as rude, but I really do not understand what you are talking about when you say these dungeons have more personality than the dungeons in games like link’s awakening and a link to the past.
Edit: sorry wrong comments, yeah let’s talk about the music instead.
@@voltron77 All good. It's been 7 years and I'm currently in a Book of Mormon debate in the comments section on a different video. Might be a long time befor I can address you proper.
@@GldnClaw Yeah, sorry about that. It’s just that I replayed these games recently and was baffled by how annoying and ear grating the music was.
Love those diagrams! Great idea to compare dungeons across games. If there are ways to further represent difficulty and so on that would be nice too, but even just what you've made here I'd be happy to have access to in like a wiki or some comparative page.
Btw the oracles are my favorites in the series. I hope you'll talk more at length about them..?
Anyway, thanks for the excellent work. Big fan
Do you have those graphs posted somewhere? I think they're a really useful tool for thinking about trends and progression, but to get the full benefit, I feel like I'd want to sit and look at them and compare them. When they're flashing by on a video, it's useful for a single level, but I'd like to see them in a layout that invites more detailed review. Even if you don't have a complete set, I think the community might finish it if you released a template.
Great video as always. Keep up the good work.
+Tamara Ryan Thanks - yep, I'll release them soon.
Awesome, thanks!
Awesome. I'm considering printing them out as posters and hanging them up in my room. Very nice work on the design.
HOW DO YOU ONLY HAVE 200,000 SUBS!!!!! YOUR VIDEO'S ARE SO HIGH QUALITY. YOU DESERVE AT LESAT A MILLION!!!
Wow, those graphs are amazing. Really concise way to display all relevant information, genius idea Mark!
Opening with Tarm Ruins. Off to a good start.
These are great! I really like your graph concept. Please keep them coming.
Hey Mark. You should totally publish those graphs and maps of the dungeons along with the explanation on PDF or a guide e-book. All Boss Keys series is pure gold. Not to mention Toolskit's series as well.
:)
These videos must take so much time to make, especially to figure out those graphs. Great job, loving this series
It's genuinely amazing what good Zelda games Capcom were able to make. Of course, this was Capcom back when they were one of the best 3rd party developers in the world.
Never played any of the handheld Zelda games to completion, except Link Between Worlds, which was EXCELLENT. You've inspired me to go back and play them on my 3DS. Thanks Mark!
this graph thing is monstrously clever. I love it!
I must say, the graph system you made here is a fantastic tool for MAKING dungeons as much as analyzing them. Using this, I can start by making a graph as complex as I want, and then make the actual design around it. It's an excellent starting point for design.
Mark Brown liking the magnet puzzles. That checks out watching from the future.
Man your videos are awesome, I've been checking out your channel all day! You surely deserve more subscribers
These were actually the Zelda games I grew up with, so it's nice to see them here-- they're rarely talked about. It's nice to see that they came off positively overall.
It would be interesting to look at how the overworlds work in the Zelda series as well, as one of the big points of the Oracle games was having two overworlds and switching between them to solve puzzles and access the dungeons. Ages has the past and present, which is a puzzle by itself, and Seasons has Subrosia, which is a much more perilous overworld with lava and stronger enemies. Both games also gate key items behind trading quests-- in this case, the totally optional Noble Sword, which doubles attack power. Curiously, the Master Sword doesn't appear in-game outside of the Secrets mode.
Echoing many of the other comments, I'm a little disappointed. I was so excited to hear your thoughts on these games, and you spent the majority of the video talking about other games and how you can graph them. You gave Ocarina of Time the full ten minutes, but you split roughly three minutes between both Oracle games, when there's so much to talk about.
9:42 "I'm going to talk about individual puzzles in a future episode..."
I love how thought out this is.
Thank you so much for this serie of video, it's a real pleasure both for the mind and for the memories to watch!
Loving the series, though I do wish that the videos were longer; I find your analysis very interesting, and I would love to see a full analysis of all dungeons in A Link to the Past (for example).
Masterful work, as always, Mark. That graph of yours is inadvertently useful to chart out Tabletop RPG dungeons!!!!
I'm excited for wind waker's episode!!!
Are you doing phantom hourglass/Spirit tracks too? You could do an episode on both, like this one
yeah - not sure if they'll get separate or combined eps yet
I like your analysis and it breaks down potential molds to be broken in the Zelda franchise.
Keep it up!
Regarding the golden floating platform in Jabu Jabu's Belly, an owl statue actually tells you very early into the dungeon that it is floating on water. Felt like pointing that out since that dungeon is my absolute favourite in the series :]
Really well put together! You just earned yourself a subscriber!
After playing randomizers for these games (and revisiting them on the Switch) I really appreciate how challenging the creators at Capcom made the dungeons without frustrating them.
I'm following your series and i LOVE such a way to describe dungeon structures :D
Can't find a good enough compliment to describe how much I like your videos :)
this video was as usual very well done, i just think this one was extra well done. good job homes
Your work is AMAZING. And I think your sub count is starting to show that
Great video! I have one of the oracle games but have never given them a try. This video has me wanting to remedy that! Thanks for your hard work.
Watching this series whilst researching game creation and considering making my first game on Unity.
I fear it is a bit like listening to Debussy whilst considering learning the piano.
You're talking about macro structure of the Shadow Temple without reference the micro structure of the rooms, which contribute an incredible amount of puzzle solving and creativity. The hidden traps, enemies, and inter-room puzzles (such as the one where the wooden spikes are closing in on you and you have to think quickly to use Din's Flame to burn them before dying) are not even referenced. I could list a dozen more. These factors contribute to dungeon quality just as much as layout.
This is true, you could even say the linearity is completely intentional. When your gimmick is secrets, invisible traps, and invisible objects, limiting the area you can explore the way it does makes a lot of sense. It's not like you always know it at the time either. I understand that he's focusing on a specific and rare type of dungeon design but it does make his analysis' feel lacking in actually telling quality. Especially from how the flaws in layout of Jabu Jabu (ages) that aren't connected to the Water Temple are barely touched upon.
How the locks for the boss key are stuck in one place, making the entire dungeon a backtracking key hunt except for the dungeon item (which is only slightly more) many puzzles being all based on doing the same thing at different water levels, and the mechanics of both the mermaid suit and pushing underwater blocks (as well as being the one of the only dungeon items blocked off by a key after the miniboss) shows how those same qualities of non-linearity can lead to very poor design if not supported right. Love the games tho.
+Mark Brown I like how you incorporated "Dungeon Graphs."
This channel is amazing! I've been watching a lot of Extra Credits and love how this shines a laser onto such a specific topic. I'll be watching a bunch more of these! Also, Never a big Zelda fan but I'm gonna give them a shot now.
Though this episode doesn't really focus that much on the Oracle games, the new map system is really useful and cool. Loved how it made it much easier to compare dungeons, especially between different games. Good job on the map system! This was one of the best episodes so far!
I started my Legend of Zelda experience with the Oracle games. My brother had Ages and I had Seasons. My brother is older than my by four years, so we accidentally got the game that worked for someone our age. I was 7 and he was 11. It was my brothers second LoZ game, but for me, it was my first. Playing through the two of the OoX games, I absolutely loved the dungeons.
The dungeons in games since just haven't been as fluid (for lack of a better word) for me. I have played all of the games released on a handheld game (made or re-released after OoX). I still think OoX had the best dungeons in the series, or at least, the last time that a game got close in dungeon procedure was Phantom Hourglass.
The OoX games really are a good example of amazing dungeon design, and I think they're the best of the series. I just wish you'd mentioned Subrosia in some way or other.
Thanks for the series, Mark! Keep up the great work!
I had thought about the structure when I was little too but I'm glad someone is finally putting it up in writing and in this video. Good video. Great games too. Among the best handheld Zelda games ever made.
Thank you for captioning this.
Hi MARK, just discovered this channel... it's awesome! You should really make a video on the game LA-MULANA! It's an amazing game with incredibly well done game design and puzzle (maybe be to hard for some people but still)! It's one of my favourite game of all time, but unfortunately few people know it! I'm sure you would like it
The graphs are really cool. For the games I've played, I will try to make my own dungeon graphs, and see how well I did creating it in relation to when you show yours. I will have a fun challenge for myself in the next few months!
my favorite youtube series currently.
One thing you are probably not considering is the nature of the game camera. 2D makes out for easier staightforward puzzle solving, the items and enemies are clearly shown from a bird view so you can connect easily all the stuff, while in a 3D space you have to move around to interact and see stuff.
I think this is why 3D games have far less keys and locked doors compared to 2D - it is just visually that much harder to deal with them on a 3D space rather a 2D, where you can rationalize more easily position, distance and obstacles.
However, as you pointed out in this video, 3D is useful while dealing with more ambiental puzzle solving like the water temples or anything that involves physics prominently. this is actually why i think Nintendo could afford to make the water temple so hard in OOT: since it was 3D it was a tad easier and more intuitive to solve compared to 2D.
A good way to describe the "unique locks and keys" that you mentioned before would be "organic locks." They're not literal locks and keys, but elements with which you interact with that serve the same function as a key without being so "abstract" as "grab a key, tuck it away in your inventory, unlock the door."
I think the water dungeon in A Link Between Worlds does a better job than Jabu Jabu's belly in Ages, despite still being top-down, because you're not going underwater and can clearly see how the water level rises and falls relative to the layered stage geometry. It can be done well in 2D (even though ALBW has 3D graphics, it still has 2D gameplay apart from landscape layering), it just requires a different way of doing it.
This are the 2 games i hope get a remaster next, with hope they add the 3rd game they originally had planned to be a part of the Oracle games.
The graphs for the dungeons are amazingly good.
I'm a level design teacher and I would love if you let me use the first example, Gnarled Root, in one of my classes.
OOT's shadow temple was a nightmare for me as a child, so I was really glad I could speed through its linear setup and get it over with. I always wondered if they designed it that way to reduce the overall amount of horror in the game.
Interesting stuff, I can't believe you mapped out every dungeon as a graph, that must have taken days! That's a clever way to show the structure, it would be cool to have these graphs available as JPEGS somewhere if you don't mind sharing them - would love to compare them in more detail in my own time. Also I always wondered about the epic and complex task of designing these dungeons, I wonder how they go about doing it - they must use something similar to map out the progression initially and then iterate on it, what do you think? I seem to remember there is a dev video for Ocarina of Time or one of the other 3D ones where they use post-its to map out the game's structure. Would be interested in seeing more analysis on this as well! Good stuff Mark.
Great series, I hope those charts will end up being downloadable once you have finished all of your research!
Wow, your analysis is incredible!
You're still correct, the Oracle games are the first Zelda games developed outside of Nintendo.
Philips never made entries into the Legends of Zelda series, they only signed a contract that would allow them to incorporate characters from the Zelda in Mario series into games for their upcoming CD project with Nintendo (which never materialized).
Needles to say, they took advantage of this when creating games for their CDi mediabox. The games are cleverly stripped off any trademarks and only contains character's names in the titles they had licensed from Nintendo.
I love the Magnetic Gloves too.
I would disagree that Oracles makes the design of Link's Awakening more complex. Awakening had such unconventional puzzle design that required out-of-the-box solutions. Walking on top of raised blocks, finding unmarked walls to bomb, throwing the iron ball across barriers in Eagles Tower, and of course bombing a mini-boss from a raised platform in Turtle Rock. Puzzles like these made Awakening much more taxing since the player had to figure out novel solutions, whereas Oracles had much more linear puzzles that could be solved just by progressing through the dungeon. Just my opinion of course.
well, to start off, oracle of ages had the crown dungeon in which it's gimmick was the color blocks, and a good chunk of the dungeon actually had you walking on top of those to complete puzzles,
the ancient tomb also had a part where it seemed to be a dead end, but you had to search for a hidden bombable wall. it also elaborated on the block puzzles, having you have to jump from one raised block to another at one point
I will say that awakening did have some good puzzles (eagles tower had me stuck for like over an hour), and that they were more out of the ordinary as you said, but don't underestimate the trickery of the oracle games puzzles, they can get really confusing, like with jabu jabus belly.
Admittedly it's been a long time since I played the Oracle games and I first played Awakening recently. I just know Awakening was more difficult for adult me compared to how difficult Oracles was for kid me.
But the Awakening Puzzles were more once you find the puzzle, you have it solved. Meanwhile, the Oracle games say "hey, riddle me this." and it takes you a while to actually get it figured.
hey man, new viewer. thank you so much for doing these vids. these are my fave games. keep it up :)
It would be nice to see a video explaining the new chart system on its own.
The quality, amazing
Ahhh these are the only old school zeldas I didn't finish! I only ever got a copy of Seasons and I got lost in the over world as a kid and never figured out how to progress. I was pretty far into it too.
At first, I was worried about the idea of changing the visual format in response to whinging commenters upset at how their favorite games are portrayed. By the end of the video, though, I came around on the flowcharts. They simplify the communication of what the original visuals covered, and as you point out, they do so in a fashion that's easily applicable to 2D and 3D games. (And I'm sure they make production a teeny bit easier. ;) )
This video was an amazing introduction to your method and I liked it so much I subscribed to see more later. But it felt more like an introduction to your method than an analysis of Oracle games. I'd absolutely love if you came back to the Oracle games later and did a more focused analysis of them, instead of using them to present your method.
Great work Mark, as aways.
This channel is just great.
Nice, can't believe I had not found your channel yet, consider me subscribed
Is there any way we can have access to those graphs?
I second this. Especially the complicated ones.
This channel is really inspiring
I'm probably the only person that thinks Oracle of Seasons is the best Zelda game ever. I'm biased, though, since it was my very first one, and I loved it so much that I bought most of the series.
Yo, Mark, this Dungeon Layout Graphic system you've made is fucking brilliant. I was actually intending on developing something like this myself for the sake of giving myself an abstracted "building blocks" kit to use when designing the levels of my own game, but you beat me to the punch it seems :P ...which makes sense, considering the idea of such a system came from watching your Boss Keys videos to begin with... but... yeah.
Anyway, keep up the good work, man! Expect some patreon donations from me once I have money again :P
Can't wait for your episode on Wind Waker Mark!
Fantastic episode. The Oracles games as so so good. I thought there were my favorite but after I replayed all the Zelda games I came away with liking Majora's Mask best.
These are really great. I'll be joining patrean soon.
I love your graphs. There is a way I could download it?
soon!
As good as always!
well i cant wait to use these graphs to design some dungeons
All these people be mad about not talking about dungeons, but drawing comparisons. As a guy who can't figure out why he loved these two games and no other zelda games in the same light, those compare and contrast points were brilliant.
It's choice. It's item quality. It's also the kick-ass ring system and not having to look around bigass 3d rooms trying to find an unseen component of an otherwise apparent puzzle, BUT all in all I think they presented a simple yet addictive and gradually challenging world with some very well built environments and lore. Ages doubly so, but I love em both to death.
By contrast, I played Minish Cap for the first time last year, and I couldn't even tell you what happened for 80% of the damned game. Sigh.
While I understand the criticism you got on this video -- after all, you didn't spend nearly the time of past episodes on the games of this one, and you had two games to cover here -- I think your graph system is such a great idea that I can't hate this video.
You probably would have been better off doing a normal episode for the Oracle games and doing a separate episode detailing the graph system and giving examples from Zelda games you've already covered. You certainly uncover a lot by analyzing the dungeon graphs and could have gone more into the ties and differences between these games.
All said, this is my favorite episode in this series, if only for the fresh approach to dungeon analysis; I've seen graphs like that used before when talking about level design of "lock & key" dungeons, but usually it's solely for 2D games and the actual map is overlaid with the graph. Presenting the water temple mechanic as a sort of key/door system was particularly interesting. Maybe I'm just a sucker for graphs but I thought this was great!
Randomely stumbled across this series with suggested UA-cam vids. Subscribed and eagerly looking forward to skyward sword as it's my favorite in the series. (No seriously it is)
Where I hated the Water Temple in Ocarina I LOVED Jabu Jabu's Belly in Ages
I think I'm bad at 2D zeldas because I'm used to the 3D ones, so I think in that way. seasons/ages and minish cap are the only 2D ones I can remember actually completing. (Although I'm working my way through a link to the past now)
Religious Bovine! What a tremendous design resource available for FREE here!!
I feel bad that some aspiring game designers have to sit in a classroom(and pay cash money!) to learn this...
Love this series
Was there originally going to be a third oracle game with Farore?
The Oracle games have both the things that make 2D Zelda great and some of the things that make 3D Zelda great.
Your dungeon graphing is similar to old school D&D mapflow evaluations for dungeons: www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?168563-Dungeon-layout-map-flow-and-old-school-game-design
The villains of these games appear in Megaman Extreme 2 in reploid form.
I love the minish cap
While I love this series I'd like to see it slow down so that we can get some of that Breath of the wild!
*_And so the charting began_*
i was kinda hopinbg you bring up the area right before the 8th dungeons boss in oracle of ages that has 4 random obsticles before the boss door but in accuallity its telling yoiu the weakness to each one of his phases
Any chance you could release the art/tools you used to make those graphs? I'd like to take a crack at assembling graphs like yours for a couple of other games to compare them.
I'll be releasing all the stuff at the end of Boss Keys, yeah
You could've done a CD-I episode 7 days ago
(April 1st)
I wonder if you can apply this flow chart system to the game as a whole?
I have to say ... I don't know if you ever played Xenoblade Chronicles... but your voice really reminds me of Alvis. .. Or am I the only one ?
"Link....you must find YOUR Master Sword. The true Master Sword."
See I knew I wasn't the only one ! Don't you think his voice sounds very similair to that of Alvis? ... Amazing game btw 😊
Uh, you know I kinda see the resemblance.
Wow, you're like the Richard Feynman of game dungeon design!
I also found it interesting how Link's Awakening relies on the fact that every dungeon room and every area in the game is the same size as the Game Boy's screen, meaning you're always aware of everything that's going on in a certain room/area, much like the first Zelda game. The Oracle games return to what A Link to the Past did, which is that areas and dungeon rooms are much bigger than the system's screen, which means you have to explore to get a full grasp of your surroundings. I like both systems, as they encourage the player's thinking in different ways.
I never really thought about that before. Cool observation!