I also think this format for conversation really helps novices like myself grasp some of these big concepts. Just having someone else say the same thing with their own vocabulary makes it so much easier to locate the concept in my own syntax. Thank you
Reaching synthesis by way of reasoning feels almost cathartic in a sense. This catharsis is usually very short lived, because not long after I shed the old am I introduced to an entirely new reality, which then resets the process. Reminds me of when Camus said that "to the existentialist negation is God."
The tone of this conversation reminds me of intimate church groups. In that sense, I see now how church has the ability foster empathy and improve society. I've never seen this practiced outside of church, or maybe 1v1 therapy. Very interesting.
I think this is a great idea. I love this. You four displayed a dialog in which is mature, and much needed. Us common folk need to be reminded how to converse, brainstorm, and understand. Thank you.
I've just finished reading Erich Fromm's "Escape From Freedom". Very timely, I might add. He discusses man's tendency to feel isolated/powerless and our pathological remedies to this. He suggests that "fundamental integration" is the answer...as in full acceptance of all facets of our personality. He also...and your empathy circle brought this to mind...advocated "love as spontaneous affirmation of others and the union of the individual with others on the basis of the preservation of the individual self". I believe the empathy-circle embodies this👍
This was a beautiful conversation, and with all the description words around constriction and expansion, I felt folks were missing an acknowledgement of their own personal relationships with reason as people with reputations for thinking deeply and profoundly. It makes sense for these particular people that there is fear and trepidation and tight grasping when your identity is very closely entangled with being someone who is pointed to as reasoning well. I loved how much space they held for each other in this and felt like this could have been named outright because it seems like there are broader implications about what reason might feel like for people who don't have as close of a relationship with reason as these people do.
I felt four distinct flavors of people emerge, very nice. A few years back I realized that I put up a mirror to people that assert something to me, sometimes I take what they're presenting and take it to one extreme like a demonstration (usually with disastrous results) but the whole thing has nothing to do with me and is a self defence mechanism. It was very helpful to realize this and see their assertion as their self diminished display of need. I would help any creature out of a trap at the risk of being bitten because I fall into every trap out there and so there's room for cleverness. Thanks.
Just Wow! You guys just broke the methodic ice whilst doing dialogue over the electronic media. Maybe this is a precursor for something else and huge but this is certainly very promising and even astohnishing - after all we have seen during last 20+ years or so. Awe and wonder. And what I deeply feel is, that it is Edwin Rutch who has minded this giant leap - by listening to his talent of empathy. Thank You
The number one question that drove me back to Awakening from the Meaning Crisis was: What is Reason? Really appreciated this. :-) Also ‘cause it's a great demonstration of the practice of dialogos!
I feel pretty divided about this communication exercise. It feels a bit robotic and unnatural, but maybe this is like the new frontier of conversation and im just being a boomer (im 21 lol)...This format promotes a sense of care, clarity and connection, but at the cost of fluidity imo. I still found myself enjoying the conversation.
Agreed. It breaks the flow and natural back and forth of a free conversation where anybody can just say something if something comes up in their mind and ask or answer back.
The last 30 mins or so of describing the “in-ness” and the “out-ness” of it reminds me of Alan Watts talking about “prickles and goo”. The ability to hold both perspectives simultaneously, or to oscillate between them like being the classicist and the romanticist all at once. And cultivating the ability to be comfortable in the liminal, the ambiguous….. mmmmmmmm. Thanks lovely people. This was interesting. 🙏🏽❤️
I felt a new level of reason last week when I ran my personal best: 25.5km in -4*C ( 2 hours 41min) It opened a highest reason for living, a different way of existence.
@@SkinsFirstGeneration I began to move again in 2019 after drinking much alcohol, used various drugs and visited prostitutes. I dropped them then began to move again: I was able to run 5km,then exhausted.
@@scotland_from_up_high7440 Yeah.From 2012 to 2018 was a serious.I think that was my last destruction. Now I live my hermit life.I collect food from the nature 90%,water from the ground,get wood into my fireplace,training and meditate a lot. Few more learning years,I believe and I'll be live without job. It's like 99% harmony with the nature as I imagine.
@@subliminal81 much respect to you. It can be so difficult to turn things around like you have done. Keep on the good path. Your potential is endless now
Empathetic circling must not be for everybody, I guess. As an old guy trying to follow a circling conversation was to say at least, a bit distracting. If the goal of circling is to bring about group realization, then Socratic questioning narrows the focus that allows the participants a bonding experience. The questions, the listener asks, reveals their understanding of what was said. Update, just finished listening to Joscha Bach and Lex Fridman and enjoyed their conversation immensely. Lex emulates the listener role in empathetic circling.
To even posit that reason has a 'feel' will instantly raise hackles in certain segments of the podcasting community. This might be worth an observation.....'>.....
Gotta say this style of active listening and paraphrasing is very similar to me from terapeutic / coacging setting… but i really do feel like there is missed opportunity by not being able to ask questions as the listener which would transcend to dialog with the element of reciprocal opening that John is so much about. Its nice to be heard and to have your thoughts reflected back and there is some of that opening for sure, but its missing the dialogical element for me
Great conversation. Unfortunately our culture likes to treat each other like biochemical machines more than actual humans with each having individual depth of personality.
Intriguing 🙂. •X( r(A )Z( U)R )Y• r = individual Reason. A = individual Body/Brain. U = Collective Mind. R = Collective Reason. Isomorphic Reason of salient solution 😁 of the fifth dimension •(d5()d5()d5)• Reflexivity of Reason into and out of the Mass of Self •X(s R(m)Z(M)r S)Y•
It's stillness, people. The answer, the conclusion of the search, is stillness of mind. How is it that after over 100 hours of discourse, John still has no answer or conclusion, and that is supposedly the path of Truth? It is obviously the path of delusion, simply spinning in circles. If you wish for ACTUAL completion; if you wish to actually find what you are looking for and thusly ending the search, investigate the teaching of Ramana Maharshi Conclusion
Systems of thought are mechanisms through which to PRODUCE THOUGHT. This is why science and philosophy have expanded exponentially, and why they have no conclusion The content of the thinking matters only insomuch as it grabs and holds your ATTENTION. Your attention is the commodity that Maya is vying for. Just to pump out thought, as to keep the cycle of Samsara going Thought is the delusion.
@@Nonconceptuality Have you listened to U.G Krishnamurti aswell? Also how would you define thought? Is it images, words as opposed to raw sensory data and action?
@@emilsundbaum5221 To me thought = the "voice in your head". UG was not enlightened, in my opinion. Ramana Maharshi's teaching was what ended my search 🙏
@@emilsundbaum5221 All 50 of them? Seriously, this person thinks he's getting CLOSER to truth! Can't watch more than a few minutes. It's obvious he is confused. So convoluted
This is amazing. Not only does it make people better listeners, but it helps you become a better talker. I love this so much.
I also think this format for conversation really helps novices like myself grasp some of these big concepts. Just having someone else say the same thing with their own vocabulary makes it so much easier to locate the concept in my own syntax. Thank you
Reaching synthesis by way of reasoning feels almost cathartic in a sense. This catharsis is usually very short lived, because not long after I shed the old am I introduced to an entirely new reality, which then resets the process. Reminds me of when Camus said that "to the existentialist negation is God."
The tone of this conversation reminds me of intimate church groups. In that sense, I see now how church has the ability foster empathy and improve society. I've never seen this practiced outside of church, or maybe 1v1 therapy. Very interesting.
This process is brilliant. This is Church❤️
I think this is a great idea. I love this. You four displayed a dialog in which is mature, and much needed. Us common folk need to be reminded how to converse, brainstorm, and understand. Thank you.
I've just finished reading Erich Fromm's "Escape From Freedom". Very timely, I might add. He discusses man's tendency to feel isolated/powerless and our pathological remedies to this. He suggests that "fundamental integration" is the answer...as in full acceptance of all facets of our personality. He also...and your empathy circle brought this to mind...advocated "love as spontaneous affirmation of others and the union of the individual with others on the basis of the preservation of the individual self". I believe the empathy-circle embodies this👍
What a wonderful, fascinating and illuminating watch, listen !
And, thank you to all 4 of you for this experience.
This was a beautiful conversation, and with all the description words around constriction and expansion, I felt folks were missing an acknowledgement of their own personal relationships with reason as people with reputations for thinking deeply and profoundly. It makes sense for these particular people that there is fear and trepidation and tight grasping when your identity is very closely entangled with being someone who is pointed to as reasoning well. I loved how much space they held for each other in this and felt like this could have been named outright because it seems like there are broader implications about what reason might feel like for people who don't have as close of a relationship with reason as these people do.
I had never heard of this practice, i think I will try it with some friends
I felt four distinct flavors of people emerge, very nice. A few years back I realized that I put up a mirror to people that assert something to me, sometimes I take what they're presenting and take it to one extreme like a demonstration (usually with disastrous results) but the whole thing has nothing to do with me and is a self defence mechanism. It was very helpful to realize this and see their assertion as their self diminished display of need. I would help any creature out of a trap at the risk of being bitten because I fall into every trap out there and so there's room for cleverness. Thanks.
The tonos of this conversation are exquisite.
Just Wow!
You guys just broke the methodic ice whilst doing dialogue over the electronic media. Maybe this is a precursor for something else and huge but this is certainly very promising and even astohnishing - after all we have seen during last 20+ years or so. Awe and wonder.
And what I deeply feel is, that it is Edwin Rutch who has minded this giant leap - by listening to his talent of empathy.
Thank You
The number one question that drove me back to Awakening from the Meaning Crisis was: What is Reason? Really appreciated this. :-) Also ‘cause it's a great demonstration of the practice of dialogos!
This has been fantastic! Thank you for sharing, I think I'll try this out in practice soon :)
I feel pretty divided about this communication exercise. It feels a bit robotic and unnatural, but maybe this is like the new frontier of conversation and im just being a boomer (im 21 lol)...This format promotes a sense of care, clarity and connection, but at the cost of fluidity imo. I still found myself enjoying the conversation.
Agreed. It breaks the flow and natural back and forth of a free conversation where anybody can just say something if something comes up in their mind and ask or answer back.
Funny, when he mentioned bouldering, I was actually bouldering, in Boulder....
Great talk everyone! 👏
If only every conversation went this way....
Observing the reason in others like feeling of hope and battle spirit, and high self-esteem. Probably, reason is only a moment of shift in awareness.
The last 30 mins or so of describing the “in-ness” and the “out-ness” of it reminds me of Alan Watts talking about “prickles and goo”. The ability to hold both perspectives simultaneously, or to oscillate between them like being the classicist and the romanticist all at once. And cultivating the ability to be comfortable in the liminal, the ambiguous….. mmmmmmmm.
Thanks lovely people. This was interesting. 🙏🏽❤️
Thanks Sherryl, John, Nathan and Edwin!
Thanks Lee
I felt a new level of reason last week when I ran my personal best:
25.5km in -4*C ( 2 hours 41min)
It opened a highest reason for living, a different way of existence.
that's an average pace of around 180m a minute, in -4°C!! keep it up, I wish your accomplishment inspires me to start moving again
@@SkinsFirstGeneration I began to move again in 2019 after drinking much alcohol, used various drugs and visited prostitutes.
I dropped them then began to move again:
I was able to run 5km,then exhausted.
@@subliminal81 sounds like 2018 was a big year lol
@@scotland_from_up_high7440 Yeah.From 2012 to 2018 was a serious.I think that was my last destruction.
Now I live my hermit life.I collect food from the nature 90%,water from the ground,get wood into my fireplace,training and meditate a lot.
Few more learning years,I believe and I'll be live without job.
It's like 99% harmony with the nature as I imagine.
@@subliminal81 much respect to you. It can be so difficult to turn things around like you have done. Keep on the good path. Your potential is endless now
Empathetic circling must not be for everybody, I guess. As an old guy trying to follow a circling conversation was to say at least, a bit distracting. If the goal of circling is to bring about group realization, then Socratic questioning narrows the focus that allows the participants a bonding experience.
The questions, the listener asks, reveals their understanding of what was said.
Update, just finished listening to Joscha Bach and Lex Fridman and enjoyed their conversation immensely. Lex emulates the listener role in empathetic circling.
To even posit that reason has a 'feel' will instantly raise hackles in certain segments of the podcasting community. This might be worth an observation.....'>.....
If one is secure in their beliefs/teaching, they should be able to address criticism rather than ignore it.
@@Nonconceptuality If it was just criticism, fewer worries, but it's not the criticism it's the psychological warfare.....
@@Nonconceptuality But then, if you quell the fear and uncertainty within yourself, you are armoured against it from others.....'>.....
This is WONDERFUL!
Gotta say this style of active listening and paraphrasing is very similar to me from terapeutic / coacging setting… but i really do feel like there is missed opportunity by not being able to ask questions as the listener which would transcend to dialog with the element of reciprocal opening that John is so much about. Its nice to be heard and to have your thoughts reflected back and there is some of that opening for sure, but its missing the dialogical element for me
you can ask any questions when it is your turn to talk..
@@EdwinRutsch oh, ok :) that wasnt clear to me. Great !
Thanks for the insightful dialogues. I immediately made a connection to the work of Julia Galef and the book she wrote, The Scout Mindset.
Great conversation. Unfortunately our culture likes to treat each other like biochemical machines more than actual humans with each having individual depth of personality.
Intriguing 🙂.
•X( r(A )Z( U)R )Y•
r = individual Reason.
A = individual Body/Brain.
U = Collective Mind.
R = Collective Reason.
Isomorphic Reason of salient solution 😁 of the fifth dimension •(d5()d5()d5)•
Reflexivity of Reason into and out of the Mass of Self
•X(s R(m)Z(M)r S)Y•
John is great at relating.. Ty guys.
Caring careful care character. Find it helpful.
The operative term is dia logos.
Not "reason"..
The Chairs of 501(c)3 charities which claim $0 on their IRS Form 990 are the most empathetic people on earth.
It's a square of squares. Critically, that's not a circle.
That one guy's really annoying
It's stillness, people.
The answer, the conclusion of the search, is stillness of mind. How is it that after over 100 hours of discourse, John still has no answer or conclusion, and that is supposedly the path of Truth?
It is obviously the path of delusion, simply spinning in circles. If you wish for ACTUAL completion; if you wish to actually find what you are looking for and thusly ending the search, investigate the teaching of Ramana Maharshi
Conclusion
Systems of thought are mechanisms through which to PRODUCE THOUGHT. This is why science and philosophy have expanded exponentially, and why they have no conclusion
The content of the thinking matters only insomuch as it grabs and holds your ATTENTION. Your attention is the commodity that Maya is vying for. Just to pump out thought, as to keep the cycle of Samsara going
Thought is the delusion.
@@Nonconceptuality Have you listened to U.G Krishnamurti aswell?
Also how would you define thought? Is it images, words as opposed to raw sensory data and action?
Have you watched Johns meaning crisis lectures?
@@emilsundbaum5221 To me thought = the "voice in your head".
UG was not enlightened, in my opinion. Ramana Maharshi's teaching was what ended my search
🙏
@@emilsundbaum5221 All 50 of them? Seriously, this person thinks he's getting CLOSER to truth!
Can't watch more than a few minutes. It's obvious he is confused. So convoluted