For me, the John Mulaney jokes aren't even making fun of the queer stereotypes, there's no suggestion that they're bad. He's just pointing out the incongruity of the fact that he fits them but is straight. He started one with a reference to his wife then continued "Which is strange because I'm probably gay... Based on how I look and talk and act. I mean, I definitely think I was supposed to be gay. When I was born an angel was like 'you marked that one gay right?' 'No, I thought you did' 'Well he's going to be a very confusing man. A very silly man.'" Like in this premise, if John WERE gay, then there would be no incongruity and everything would be fine. The error is in his straightness.
He did the same thing when he talked about his class assuming that he was Asian because he had small eyes and a bowl cut. Or how a store assumed he was a woman because of his voice. His jokes are about how ridiculous the things we use to measure identity are by pointing out how he fits them despite not being in those groups.
Yeah but the incongruity depends on the stereotypes existing. And the stereotypes are wrong and incorrect. In gay culture there's a lot of consternation about fluttering, giggling, prancing gay men. They're living up to a stereotype and there's no need to. There's a strong suspicion that they're just putting it on, for whatever reason, and making the rest of us look like idiots by association. That they're embodying the stupid stereotypes that many of the public actually believe, and so giving them reason to. The prancers fight back with "it's just how I am". People are apparently born theatrical and desperate for attention. Even if they are, leave your sexual preference out of it, mate. The rest suspect, again, that it's just an act, and they should quit it cos it's taking away the credibility of the rest. So really, it would be nice if these stereotypes died. And John telling you that how he acts makes him gay, but, sharp intake of breath, he ISN'T gay! The incongruity! It's hilarious! But he's necessarily calling gay men a bunch of fairies, and that isn't cool. It's making it worse. Gay men generally don't appreciate the stereotype cos we don't embody, or even recognise, the stereotype. Whether John intends harm or not, he's making us look like idiots. Some of the public don't know any better, or have old, prejudiced views, that John is justifying. The only thing we should mistake John Mulaney being gay for, would be him sucking some dude off. THAT would be pretty gay. The rest is just bullshit that we've been sick of for quite a while now.
I remember hearing that the late Norm McDonald say he stopped telling trans jokes because he figured there'd be one guy who'd laugh, then go out and commit a hate crime
Norm MacDonald was a misogynist. Comedy clubs wouldn't let their female employees around him alone. He openly admitted to pretending to be drunk to molest women. He also* defended plenty of male comedians that were accused of sexual assault and harassment.
Norm was mistaken. The connection between the joke and the crime has yet to be established. Such connections are created by criminals who wish to avoid responsibility and are able to do so because they know others will be eager to place the blame elsewhere, like the comedian.
the part about "not being allowed in the room" when offensive jokes are told about your community, especially right after talking about Dave Chappelle, felt really cathartic, for lack of a better term. as a trans woman, when I see clips of Dave Chappelle's show, I don't feel like I'm participating in some good natured ribbing with someone, I feel like I'm watching someone lie about me and serious issues affecting my community, and then telling the audience not to take my concerns seriously so when they get out and I finally get the chance to explain my side of the story to them, a thing I now have to do, they have reason to ignore and dismiss it, making my "job" of helping people understand me, a job I don't even want but have to do by virtue of my identity, much harder because that's what it is
Although everything you just stated is a complete lie? Know how I know your believing in a lie? Have you seen the amount of money Dave’s new special created? Your cult is dying before your eyes and society is waking up to your stupidity.
That is what it is. All of that. Well said. I asked my ex-wife and her fi to watch The Closer right after I did, giving them zero context. The fi was livid with anger. My ex just wanted to know if that was the sh*t I have to put up with.
Was nervous to click on this because of how many conservatives like to tussle with the topic of what you can and can’t joke about, but I was reassured by the bisexual lighting in your pfp
I think it's been a long time since these older comedian's had to cut teeth in small clubs testing new material and dealing with failures. That shit is traumatizing. I can understand why feeling like they're right back there is super uncomfortable. But taking this boomer "I did my time now shut up and give what I'm owed" isn't doing them any favours and is really keeping them from growing again. They could also just decide they don't want to do that anymore and idk retire?
Absolutely. But all that $ and greed, as usual, fucks it all up. I wish comedians who had their time and lucky enough to monetise it would just, like any good comedian, leave the stage on a high.
You really don't think that these guys test out new material in small clubs anymore? Seinfeld still does. Louis CK still does. Chris Rock still does. George Carlin doesn't anymore because he's dead, but he used to.
People get upset when the jobs they trained for and worked in for years become irrelevant: "I trained as a coal miner/buggy-whip maker/comedian-with-dated-20th-century-sensibilities, and it's unfair that I am no longer able to find work as such!"
So many good points! These "edgy" comedians are making conservative jokes but they think they are so progressive and revolutionary. Their critics are apparently too sensitive and can't handle their genius boundary-pushing, mind-blowing humor. They act like free speech is so important to them. Meanwhile their skin is not thick enough to handle criticism, and free speech suddenly doesn't apply to their critics. The comedians who criticized their transphobic colleagues did a great job though. Like, "What's the matter boys, too challenging for ya?"
What always amazes me is how the comedians who complain about audiences hating the jokes they’re telling don’t seem to realize that THEIR JOB is to REGULARLY WRITE NEW MATERIAL that audiences enjoy. It’s not the audiences job to laugh at their jokes, it’s their job to write jokes the audience finds funny. If you are incapable of writing fresh material that adapts to audience sensibilities, then maybe you’re just not a good comedian.
I know sometimes it seems like they want to be political commentators with some bullying on the side they want to be like Alex jones, Ben Shapiro, and Joe Rogan like the people who hurl it’s just a joke when they hurt people it’s stupid juvenile shit because they’d rather ride what’s popular and due to trump guess what’s popular
the attitude that comedy is this very Avant guard, or very therapeutic space, or very iconoclastic one is bad for comics. it's something you actually mostly find in people who can't quite get out of the pit of open micing because they just are insensitive to the basic cycle of comedy, which involves not just writing, then performing, but writing, testing, re-writing, then re-testing, then finally professionally performing material. I've seen a lot of people at mics essentially try to turn comedy in an occult ritual to summon laughter - repeat the bit that worked a little one time, and it if doesn't work as well or better the next time it's because the audience doesn't get it, it's not because you never polished it, you didn't read this room, you didn't pay attention to the 3 people before you on the bill and ditch out of a topic the audience heard three times already, etc, you said the incantation right, it's supposed to work! Like...edit! Listen to the audience. vibe with the audience. does your joke get a laugh before its over? drop the last part or turn it into a second tag, don't rush passed laughter to get YOUR WHOLE JOKE out. Did you forget part of the setup and the joke worked anyway? that part of the setup, kill it. Good comics treat writing for the stage as a distinct task, bad ones treat it as an AA meeting where you still get to drink.
It's all relative. Controversial jokes that bomb in bigger cities do great in small towns, because people in small towns are less sensitive. Even dirty jokes work better in small towns. The mistake many comedians make is not knowing their crowds. Know your crowd and what you can get away with.
As a trans woman, and a fan of stand-up comedy, I think about this topic a lot! And quite frankly I couldn't have put my own beliefs into better words than this video does. Bravo Mr Woodall, Bravo!
Absolutely not. Nothing is more important than freedom of expression. If you’re hypersensitive, go and live in a cave. Jokes do change overtime but self censorship isn’t genuine comedy. Woke comedy in an oxymoron. So who is the arbitrator and decision-maker about what jokes can or cannot be told? You? … the audience will decide. That’s why Ricky et al are all rich - they’re good and genuine.
@@antjackson4471 I couldn't agree more my friend, freedom of expression is very important to me as well! Ricky has every right to make his shitty jokes, but of course that also mean I have every right to talk about how shitty I think his "jokes" are! Freedom of expression goes both ways. But you obviously know that already because presumably you're a VERY intelligent person! 😊
One thing that struck me is how the bones of the first joke aren't homophobic. You could easily take "sign that chastises you for ignoring warnings while simultaneously putting you in danger by reading it", and transplant it to a construction site or something idk. The homophobia part is secondary to the actual joke, meaning it's literally only there for a cheap haha gay laugh. It's like a whole other even hackier type of offensive joke, distinct from the kind of jokes analyzed in the video
I don't think it actually is all that different. You can also displace identity jokes in a similar way. For instance, a lot of comedians will make jokes about children and the incongruities that can arise from games of imagination. The joke is still "this person is engaging in pretend but observe the way their pretend fails". In that way, you could just as easily say that the bones of identity jokes aren't transphobic. But the first joke is homophobic because the sign only puts you in danger if you believe that gay people are a threat. Identity jokes are transphobic because they only land if you think trans identities are equivalent to pretending. Basically, what I'm saying is that hack offense for a cheap laugh is the rule, not the exception.
Try rewriting it in such a way where the position in which you read the 3rd sign is directly associated with the danger the first 2 warned you about, in a way all audience members immediately understand. Until you find a rewrite, I'm pretty sure it had to be a gay joke.
you can move it around, for sure, and that's true of a lot of old, down punchy book jokes, I can think of half dozen at least offhand that I've seen or heard told about different groups interchangeably, but they still need A victim. My great-grandma didn't like, you know, overt racism, so she would just tell them as being about "a lazy person" or "a stupid person," which kind of ruined them, but even then they still had a victim. A lot of "blonde" jokes in 90s standup were just recycled ethnic jokes that used to be about some other group stereotyped as dumb/slutty.
It's weird them saying the criticism makes comedy too "safe" when criticism ought to make them try harder and be more creative, not less. And it's like it hasn't occurred to them that they could be wrong or that anybody could just not find certain things funny anymore. Also, at every stage of her journey, Izzard is and always has been so much funnier than Gervais 😂
Limits and rules can actually *spark* creativity by forcing people to think their way around those limits and rules. Practically everyone agrees that the original Ren and Stimpy show was infinitely more funny and creative than Adult Party Cartoon, for example.
Absolutely Izzard has always been funnier - I think about that beekeeper bit at least once a week - way more than I think about the Roman Empire anyway
@@orlakenny2987that's such a fun way of measuring how relevant something is to your life. "Do I think about this more or less than the Roman empire? More? Shit it must be pretty dope then."
I also want to speak up from the perspective of a disabled person, we are so often the butt of the joke that getting offended is seen as extremely sensitive. This happens even in liberal spaces.
The main problem anti-woke comedians haven't internalized is that some groups of people face a lot of unfair hostility and violence just for being who they are, and that certain types of jokes targeting such groups help normalize and perpetuate that harm. EDIT: Just finished the video. You said it better than I did. Great work.
The "Let The Audience Decide" piece is so bullshit too, like hey when you put your shit on netflix you cant start crying that your audience expanded outside the room of your superfans
Also since when as an audience or general population ever decided anything that was reasonable, nuanced, or in their best interests etc? Eventually a room full of turkeys will vote for christmas.
@@satyasyasatyasya5746this is a very authoritarian comment. If the people aren’t fit to lead themselves then who is? A monarch? A select group of oligarchs?
@@sackofclams953 "authoritarian" means nothing here. its too vague. and yes, the people can't govern themselves, we've tried that, and look what happens. A criticism can stand without an alternative. I have no alternative but I know and so do you, that a mob doesn't govern, a crowd doesn't think, a group doesn't parse information properly, a populace doesn't do data and research, a so-called nation doesn't know what it wants or needs.
From a comedy analysis perspective, I would add that the sense of play is more than just “I’m being aggressive but we’re just having fun”, it is also a sociological test to see if someone else can take a joke. That is to say, if I make fun of my friend because they talk too much, Depending on how they perceive it, they could be insulted, or they could acknowledge their foible and laugh. If they are insulted, that’s an indication that we’re not friends. It’s an indication that there is a room that we are in where making fun of them is not allowed. This is what happened with Donald Trump at the Correspondents dinner hosted by Seth Myers. Seth Myers did what was understood to be done, and he made fun of people who were attending the event. But Donald Trump did not enjoy being made fun of, he was insulted. He and Seth Myers are not friends. Alternatively, if a person can understand and accept their foibles, and laugh when someone points them out in a jocular way, then those two people can be friends. It’s not universally true that someone laughing at being made fun of means that they are friendly. But not being able to laugh at being made fun of means that you are not friends. I would argue that the confusion here from professional accomplished comedians who are saying that they are not allowed to make fun of others is one in which they are saying you assume that we are not friends. a good example of this impact is watching old routines by Don Rickles. Even at the time, it would be very easy to interpret his jokes as being offensive. He aimed directly at the stereotypes that were common of the day, that if they were said on the street between two strangers, a fight would break out afterwards. However, in context, it was understood that he was friends with these people, and they would laugh. Now I don’t know if Sammy Davis Junior was ever actually offended professionally, but on screen, he appeared to be friendly with Don Rickles when Don would make those kinds of jokes. Where our older comedians, and even some of our younger comedians, are having trouble, is seeing how what they’re doing now is different from what Don Rickles did then. Because if you look very clearly and analyze his comedy, it isn’t significantly different from what’s happening here. But that’s just the text. The subject I think is actually what makes the difference. When you watch Ricky Gervais or Dave Chappelle in their most recent specials, it’s not just that they’re making fun of trans people. And by the way, it makes a difference that there’s no trans person on stage like a roast. Having the target of your derision in front of you makes a huge difference as to how the joke is perceived. But in addition, there is an edge of anger. It’s not a situation where these people are friends with the subject of their jokes. They are angry at them because they perceive that the trans community, and the greater community, is telling them they can’t think or feel the way they think or feel. it is this anger in the joke that makes it offensive. The moment that you actually believe the offensive stereotype, it is no longer a joke. Growing up, my dad, who had very little sense of humor about himself, would say that when somebody makes a joke about you, about your foibles, it means that’s what they really believe about you. He would get offended. There is truth to this. A bully will make jokes about your foibles to put you down and take advantage of you. In that situation, a lot of people will laugh at the joke to take control away from the bully, and deflate their insults. That doesn’t make the insult any less true. The difference is, When you make fun of someone’s foibles to their face, and do so not because you’re angry with them, but because you either love them, or respect them enough to put up with those foibles, then the joke itself is not a weapon, it is instead a handshake, an invitation to be friendly. An invitation to show that you are friends. when the joke is an insult that is not done from a place of love, but instead comes from a place of defensiveness and anger, then it is just an insult, and we are not friends.
Long comment but you laid it out perfectly. Dave is mad that he can’t make good trans jokes and that anger is coming across in his new “jokes” too much
I think also joking can be more than one thing at a time. You can be assaying where you are with someone, the way you're talking about, and also kind of jostling with them for domience as well. It's really complicated when people are called out for one and assert the other, this is a specific kind of bullying you actually see between comics a lot, where the social game is the most gregarious person gets to talk the most... comics well say shit they clearly do mean, but if they got a laugh when they said it, and the person objects to the sincere aspect, they defend is a joke, motte and bailey style. I'm talking about off stage, like when comics socialize with each other. because comics are basically what you get if you take a regular theater kid and give them really, really bad irony poisoning.
I can't stand it when people are like "so what if I wanna make fun of someone who's a shitty person, but they just happen to be of a marginalized identity?" THEN MAKE FUN OF THE PERSON!! Better yet, make fun of what makes them shitty! Don't make fun of the identity. If I'm gonna tell a joke about Dave Chappelle, it's gonna be about how he's a transphobic piece of crap, not about how he's a black man.
FUCKING BINGO! Make fun of the person for the ideas they hold, the groups they're choosing to be a part of, the aspects of their personhood *that **_can_** be changed.* Don't make fun of someone for something immutable. It's the "5 second rule" on appearance. Don't tell your friend about something that can't be fixed in about 5-15 seconds. Lipstick on the teeth? Underwear poking out? Yes, tell them. But if it requires a complete change of outfit (that shirt looks tacky with those pants) you keep your mouth shut. Same idea. If it's something they can change about who they are, like an idiology, something they said, how they're treating people, yes, point it out. But if it's something inherent to their identity like their gender, sexualily, or race, just keep your mouth shut.
This feels like back when twitter was still twitter, trying to explain to people that mocking a very high-profile offensive political figure for being a known sex offender and a traitor is fine, but mocking him for being substantially overweight and having cognitive issues associated with age would just hurt perfectly decent people who happened to be living with those issues themselves, or had a loved one living with those issues.
the way that punching down becomes internalized too. as a trans girl im concerningly transphobic because of being socialized that way. sometimes i catch myself laughing when i shouldn't when i dissociate from who ik i am. i'm not perfect and i really enjoy this insight into the complexity of the topic as i've never heard someone discuss the whole thing so concisely and accurately. i subbed :)
You shouldn't feel bad for laughing at offensive jokes because you can't always control how you react to things. As long as you retain a critical mind and understand why the joke is wrong/harmful, you're alright. The jokes may be bad, but you aren't. Remember not to be too hard on yourself.
Well that’s the whole point here, it is on the comedian to pick better topics because the average person will laugh at a joke that offends a marginalized group even if they don’t believe in that joke themselves, the initial shock factor, tension, etc. makes people laugh before they can even decide if it’s socially acceptable
"things are still a little tense" Me watching the Tories promise to continue to abuse Trans kids and PROTECT anti-trans views because "they're a belief": well that's an understatement 😅
I find the science behind laughter fascinating. Babies and toddlers laugh before they even know language, so our brains are wired to respond to things that challenge what we know but not in an offensive way (goofy or silly things).
My theory is that Schadenfreude (laughing at the misfortune of others) is the most basic form of humor. Babies laugh when you pretent to get hurt, before they laugh at anything else.
@@lupo3694 But babies mostly laugh out of surprise when they discover you're not actually hurt. That's not really Schadenfreude. They don't usually laugh at people who are genuinely hurt.
@tommylakindasorta3068 Not really, they laugh way before that. If you want to make a baby laugh, pretent to trip, or hit your thumb with a hammer or some stupid stuff like that. The love that shit. Also, most adults don't think it is funny when someone is seriously injured. That is called not being a total psychopath.
Unbelievably well written video on something many feel but are unable to express in such concrete terms. When you say this was the most difficult script to write, I absolutely believe it. Massive props
I'd love it these comedians could show me the big thing they accomplished by telling jokes. Have they led a social movement that improved anything? When?
It seems weird to me that the intro part omits the aspect of execution. You can have a killer joke, but on the hands of someone who can't deliver it well - without proper timing, adequate body language, etc - it may well bomb. Hell, you may have all that and still have it bomb on a given crowd. Every comedian has stories of this happening. It's part of the craft. In the same way, you can imagine a bad joke being really funny if it's delivered by a particular person with a certain execution. Someone like, say, William Montgomery, does this a lot. Comedy is so much more than just the writing.
This feels like it was addressed throughout the video, just not said outright. Like how with John Mulaney delivers his gay jokes. They stick not just because of what he's saying, but how he's saying it. Though this is a good point to make. Delivery is very important. It just kind of gets spread out over the who, what, when, where, and why, rather than said plainly that "delivery matters."
This was such a good video. Mostly I put videos on so I can go do my crappy chores but I'm done watching the video now and the dishes are still in the sink, I lowkey blame you for that.
Ive had this discussion with my parents multiple times, and ive always felt like i never had the right words or examples to bring to the table. This video is so well done, thank you!
Also I'm a hypocrite, I have many times refused to listen simply because I had to get to that point on my own, like the opinion of my loved ones about how a partner was treating me and pointing out that patterns are repeating not improving. So I am no wiser by being aware of this.
god every clip of Ricky Gervais feels like he's just playing his character from the office attempting to be a stand-up. i'm just turning inside out from cringe watching him. knowing that someone paid money to see him feels like a red flag not just because of tacit endorsement of his shit opinions but having shit taste in comedy too
fascinating (and hilarious) dissection of such a complicated issue! imo a lot of the arguments around what can and cant be said in comedy tend to feel very one-dimensional and simplistic, its great to see such a thoughtful and nuanced look at this. so many things you said seem so obvious in retrospect. rly makes sense now why a lot of older comedians cant accept that younger ppl just dont find their jokes funny- its always "my jokes are funny, young people are just too easily offended so they dont laugh" when in all likelihood young people might just no longer find the thing they're ridiculing to be inherently ridiculous (trans people,, existing?), and if the joke is lazy and has nothing else to it then why would they find it funny?
I think younger people also have more exposure to trans people because visibility has been higher and people are becoming slowly more accepting, so we know more about trans people than an older audience. If you want to make us laugh you have to go deeper than “girl with a penis haha.”
This is the best video I've ever watched on this topic, I really appreciate that the tone is gentle yet firm. I hope it changes a lot of people's minds on this issue, fantastic work
Holy shit, this is incredibly well written. I’ve never been able to follow along and actually take in so many new concepts in such a short amount of time.
this is my favorite video essay, really interesting and exelent narration and pacing, hope your channel and videos get the recognition they deserve (greetings from Argentina)
As a trans person, the only thing Dave Chappelle said that offended me was his insistence that Hannah Gadsby isn't funny because she is. I'm glad you showed James Acaster's joke about Ricky, and Frankie Boyle's, but Nish Kumar's is my favorite. "What did trans people do?! There's like 12 of them!" kills me EVERY time. Omg I love that River Butcher stand-up, I relate so hard as a trans man.
The Louis C. K. joke genuinely made me laugh, it's so depressing he leaned into his new audience if people who don't give a fuck if he sexually assaulted people.
@petrify4814: Ohhh! Can I answer your question as to why so many people hate the trans community. Hmm maybe it’s because their in a wacky cult, in which the laws of biology do not apply. And when you present biological realities to trans people, they scream and call you “transphobic”. Do you understand now?
The "misunderstanding" around punching down (in quotes because I'm not convinced it is a misunderstanding most of the time) is that it's not about "punching" at someone "below you" as such, it's about "punching down" at someone, or a group where the fist as it were *is* their status as inferior in some way. Nobody cares if you crack jokes about Dave Chapelle, despite him being a black man. People would likely be a bit less forgiving if the joke is him being black, and therefore inferior.
I think Daniel Sloss is a brilliant dark humor comedian. In his special, aptly named, "Dark" he discusses the death of his younger sister. In Jigsaw he discusses being in an abusive relationship. In X he discusses sex and rape. All of these things are dark, yet he's able to tell these stories and make a comedy out of them all while never truly punching down.
I always thought it was interesting that "I identify as an attack helicopter" and "ah yes the two genders" are at some level the same joke, calling something absurd a gender. But the former originated in reactionary circles painting transexuality as absurd, whereas the latter originated in queer circles painting societal gender roles as absurd. You need to know the history of the formats to know why one signals bigotry and one signals trans affirmation.
But it’s sort of predicted what was going to happen coz now people are identifying as a bunny, an self, a ghost, one girl got suspended from school coz she didn’t want to call her classmate a cat, so the attack helicopter was a joke pointing out the absurdity of people thinking they can identify as anything
@@TayWoode I honestly highly doubt a lot of what you think people have actually identified as.. Especially the cat thing.. Some dude in a congressional meeting said it. Never happened
@@stevenalexander6033 if you could be bothered to do the research you’d find it’s a true story not some dude in a congress meeting. But of course you won’t bother to look it up coz you’re either too lazy or too scared you’ll be proved wrong and too proud to admit you were wrong
@@xXSprMgaAwsmFxyHtXxthis is a shockingly good metric for a lot of things. As an amateur magician, I tend to tell people to be selective about the tricks they learn the secrets of, because if you aren't going to become a performing magician, you are going to spoil the magic for yourself for a lot of tricks. But other tricks, once you learn how they're done, make you go "Oh that's really clever" or similar. I think it's the same with humor. If you break it down and it's only funny because you said something shocking, then you aren't really doing comedy. If I can break down a joke and find the bits where it's challenging preconceived notions in an interesting way, or there's a clever play on words that hasn't been done a thousand times, or really anything of substance, then I can appreciate the craft and wit that went into making the joke funny.
I wish I could have watched this video a few years ago before I researched my Social Anthropology dissertation project. This video was excellently researched and well written, and puts my University of Edinburgh dissertation, entitled 'What Are You Laughing At? Gender and Sexuality in Improv Comedy' to shame. It also touched on a number of issues which, as a comedy and social scientist nerd, I had struggled to formulate titanium ideas on. Despite agreeing with you on almost, if not, everything you said, I still feel that there are grey areas in my own perceptions of the interaction between comedy and social issues, which I think is healthy and to be encouraged, but your presentation did help me to further process challenging thoughts on these topics.
Honestly, I think a big reason that Frank Carson joke was funny is because he *sounds funny.* I think many comedians' jokes bomb when told by other comedians, because they just don't have the specific funny inflection that makes the joke work. Not trying to discount any of your points, this video was great! Just felt like I had to make that point known.
Substituting the group for one you're more comfortable trashing on doesn't change the wrongness of it The leaders, hell yeah, dunk on them all you want. The followers? People who are in cults as followers are VICTIMS. Let me repeat. They're VICTIMS. Victims can absolutely perpetuate harm or even directly commit harm themselves and still be victims. You can be an abuser and an abuse victim. In fact, most of them are. The world isn't black and white. Welcome to the concept of nuance
exactly what i was thinking. like yeah, it would still be a bad joke making light of a genocide but it would no longer be tied to a racial/ethnic minority and he would no longer be using a slur to do it. people already hate jehovah's witnesses, it's like making fun of mormons
I thought i had already thought this topic out quite thoroughly for my own position, but you offered many new perspectives and have given me food for thought. Merci!
See, that's the thing. I will always acknowledge that cis and straight people are capable of telling jokes about us, at our expense even - but they have to know what they're talking about first. When I hear an ally making a joke at my expense but shows that they know us, our weird quirks and particularities... that's comedy. What offends me isn't that a joke is levied at me, but rather that the mockery comes from a lack of understanding. The Chappelle situation makes me sad. He completely neglects that black trans people suffer the worst abuse in either of our categories. The safety of PoC trans people has been the most pressing issue in the trans community for decades, yet it never gets the attention it deserves... Which is why it's all the more hurtful when they get swept under the rug like that.
Exactly. He literally writes off queer black people multiple times in his specials. He first says it’s only a white thing. Then at another point he says it’s more important that black queer people are black than that they are queer. And I think he ultimately doesn’t want to be intersectional because of the money he has. If we work on things for everyone he will ultimately have to pay more taxes because the rich aren’t taxed enough as it is. Whereas incremental changes that only help black people won’t hurt his pocket as much… And none of this even goes into the homophobia and transphobia that’s specific to the black community and more specifically cis straight black men. But as long as he paints the trans jokes as him vs white people, he can avoid that subject
A lesbian comedian I like often makes jokes about trans/nb and autistic people, but they're "in community" jokes still because like you said, there's a deep understanding of the culture even though she's cis and not autistic
It's strange when "comedians" claim to be necessary assholes then get mad when people call them assholes. You wanted to push buttons and people got offended by having their buttons pushed. I don't know what you expected.
It's not just the lack of introspection and assholery for me. It's when they claim victimhood by using concepts that don't apply. No, cancellation isn't "oh no I don't have an audience anymore because they can't take a joke". Freedom of speech isn't the fact that platforms won't hire you for your audience hating the offensive joke you made. That's you producing bullshit and people reacting to bullshit. And anyway a true "cancellation" is just a very tame word to mean "someone got the clink for abusing and raping people". Freedom of speech carries the same thing of "what the fuck are you talking about?" There are no FCC fines, no jail time, no court cases what are you complaining about other than you being upset the audience isn't laughing and is making it really clear they don't like you? I'm annoyed at what the English language has become because at this point, people are using words completely wrongly when they want to claim unfairness with no basis.
I was expecting breadtube essay I can listen to and just chuckle along. However this is very well researched, structured and argumented piece on par with scientific paper. Well done.
Excellent video. A wonderful progression of thoughtful plus comedy into a really good more serious look at comedy politics and speech. Even after finishing it that opening was something special with how pitch perfect you cracked jokes. And a lot to digest and think about. Thank you Mr. Woodall!
These "comedians" (I use that word because that's what they describe themselves as, not because they're funny) are so entitled to laughs that they'll chastise the audience for not clapping like seals when they say some ignorant thing. "Cancelling" has always just been traditionally powerful people not being treated as better than everyone else. Being told to shut up on social media is not a life-ending crime, that is called "Tuesday" for most people. Normal people get over it quickly, these people act like someone just spat on their mother's grave. They're so used to privilege of wealth, fame or status that they can't even comprehend that they might not be entitled to universal acclaim.
I do stand up and there's a guy in our circle who complains that audiences are too woke and even if that were true what does he want us to do? Get an entirely new audience? He isn't making the people in front of him laugh, he's failing to do his job.
@@voiceunderthecovers Dave Chapelle is very funny when he isn't going on a diatribe about trans people. And yeah Jerry Seinfeld isn't funny... that one seems less controversial.
I agree with some of your points but being canceled isn’t having one person tell you to shut up, it’s having dozens, hundreds or thousands of people telling you to shut up, telling you you’re a bad person and often telling you to end your life. If anything I’d say celebrities have it easier when it comes to mass harassment, they can pay people to look at that stuff for them, they have body guards and security to handle death threats and threats on their life, a normal person has none of that. I’m all for justice, but lets not suggest things that aren’t true. If a normal person gets cancelled they are not getting a comeback tour.
@@mimipeahes5848 The vast, VAST majority of people claiming to be cancelled are not receiving death threats; and no regular person is getting cancelled on the internet.
Now that I've watched this to the end twice, I feel I understand enough to share my two cents; When I was a little girl to my early teens comedy shows were huge in Kenya. Lazy Kenyan comedians, always somewhat famous and with a platform, always made this sort of joke; why do the blind people always say "I see"? It never failed to annoy me. The first time I heard it was my favorite teacher parroting that joke to the delight of my classmates but at my expense; the most time I heard it was a bully teacher always using it to shut me down and embarrass me and she'd go as far as making it impossible for me to not use that phrase and punish me if I refused to speak. It's a very common turn of phrase in all our official languages and you'd have to sound unusually pedantic to say I know without using I see and you couldn't refer to watching TV at all or sound dumb using the phrase for listening to the radio to say you watched TV. Classmates used it, family used it, friends used it, foe used it, everybody made use of that joke against me and my friends all the damn time. It was horrible. Our integration teachers were using it, our transcribers, our social workers, our doctors; we were swimming in this micro-aggresion and being policed for no good reason. One day, we were seated in our integrations office and my friend started talking about "listening to the TV" and she'd go on and on about listening to the TV this, listening to the TV that till I snapped at her to cut it out. She burst into tears asking asking what was she supposed to do if she couldn't even talk without people making fun of her. I turned to one of our transcribers and started yelling at him that he should've known better 😂😂😂, it was a whole thing that the district education officer had to come mediate because I just wouldn't stop chastizing people around school (I was doing it to anyone that would or had made that joke and making a lot of enemies). The joke kinda stopoed but only around me, my one crying friend and my one friend that was great at being a grade A bitch right back. Only one person apologized, she'd never made that joke, and she was my school principal. We don't really have much to laugh about in Kenya nowadays, and I'm glad about it if it's going to add to our unnecessary policing, but every now and then someone reminisces about that joke. You really can never trust the public to understand the joke or not carry it to bigotry's end. I don't support any punching down joke (low key why I absolutely loved what Will Smith did, it'd end it so fast if someone always slogged those jokestars so casually punching down) and I never *not humiliate* anyone using the dreaded "I see joke" but it's sad I'm still doing it though.
I'm not sure you have all the facts of the "Will Smith thing." Taken at face value, Jada is mostly at fault, then Will, while Chris Rock is pretty much innocent.
@@bluntrapture wait, are you kidding me? Two men fight on the public arena but a woman that was quietly unamused is carried the blame? You must have really practiced how to, to be able to this well, embody mysogyny this well. Chris Rock punched down. Jada Pickett Smith was unnecessarily humiliated *for a stranger's career* growth. And Will Smith punched a fool. He cried, he boohooed but he still learnt to not go around casually insulting stranger's for money. And do you know who else has made a seemingly punching down joke part of his Oscar routine? Seth MacFarlane when he sang that boobies song! Do you know what he did to not unnecessarily humiliate and hurt people? He asked them permission beforehand and made them part of the joke and *not the punchline of it.* They knew the joke was happening and had the chance to work out the joke with him to not be humiliated, he _wasn't punching down._
Yeah, I always get equally annoyed whenever I see people making jokes about the phrase "I hear..." and deaf people not hearing whatever it is, because it's a lazy and overused joke. As a deaf person, there are so many better jokes that you could make about us, because yes, not being able to understand what's going on can lead to incredibly humorous situations. A good example of that is Trevor Noah's entire set "Jokes About Deaf People," which is funny because it's creative in how it pokes fun at the usually taboo topic of disability, and how people are often totally unprepared to deal with disabled people.
@@availanila I've heard the personal history of Jada and Will, and that's what made me think she's not squeaky clean in this whole thing. But I don't actually know any of them or have any eyewitness experiences, so I'm just speculating in the UA-cam comment section. Just doing what everybody else is doing --- talking about stuff I know nothing about.
@@bluntrapture yeah but we're talking about a well televised moment in time where Chris Rock made a joke at Jada Pickett-Smith's expense and got slapped for the gal. You're saying she's to blame because she was hurt and embarrassed someone made a fool of her... what's your angle here? How is she to blame a bully for his up and comings?
This is such a good video The balance of education and humour is perfect in my opinion. I did laugh but I also gained a deeper understanding for why certain jokes rub me the wrong way and how to better notice the jokes targeting other minorities.
This was a really well articulated and thoughtful video and you've given me a fair bit to think about. I remember doing some basic intro psych courses in college including one about humor, and I think the main lesson I took away from that is that humor is likely not one unitary thing and it is probable that many of the dominant theories have some amount of truth to them. I definitely agree with the idea that comedians have the responsibility to meet the audience halfway - you don't get to complain that the audience didn't take the joke in the good spirit it was intended if you don't make a good faith effort to actually intend that spirit, and that entails at least knowing what you're talking about to some extent and not just repeating old bigoted talking points in the form of a joke,
I think the most telling point about this whole issue is that comedians who have been "cancelled" for the reasons of an offensive joke don't understand what freedom of speech really is and what cancelling someone really is. For example, actually canceling someone would be that they did something criminal (Louis C.K, Russel Brand). Whereas if they're just going "oh no I hope I don't get canceled for this one joke" they're conflating the drying up of gigs and the failure of a joke to land with "don't take away my free speech, you're too sensitive". To be honest, it's been difficult going through this seeing the meanings of words get fucked over and trampled on. George Carlin would be rolling over in his grave to see words misused so readily. Cries of "freedom of speech being ruined" and "oh no I hope I don't get cancelled over this ehehehhee" really just ring of self victimization instead of taking responsibility and making a clever offensive joke or just really a funny joke. Sometimes I just have to think, "you're not a comedian, you're just a bully with a microphone that needs validation from other pieces of shit and when you don't get it you cry foul".
9:29 Though this is a small part of the video, and I feel like this comment reflects that in being short, I do want to say that this quote answers itself. If making fun of someone who has all of those traits which make you want to tell jokes about them is considered punching down, then make it more general. Don't joke about one specific person, joke about people who are smug, aggressive, self-satisfied - whatever - just don't joke about who they define themself. Here's an example. If there is a self centered gay man qnd you want to make fun of him because he's self centered, then do that. Don't bring up that he's gay, just make fun of him for being self centered. Don't joke about him being gay when you want to joke about him being self centered. Crazy idea, I know, but I had to share my thoughts.
Excellent and helpful piece. It's something I've been struggling to get a grip on - the philosophical theories and conclusion give a good vocabulary and working model. Thank you!
The thing that gets me is after 9/11 SNL was one of the first comedy shows to come back, and the writers took the UPMOST care in crafting that episode. Comedians understand tact when they understand the impact of the stubject they are joking about. THIS is why it's telling when someone makes a bigoted joke in bad taste; It's indicitive of their own ignorance or indifference on the subject of the joke. The way Dave jokes about trans people tells me he either doesn't understand them or just doesn't care about them.
On the topic of how jokes can further prejudice, South Park's "Ginger Kids" episode may be a good example. In the context of the episode, the plot was clearly absurd and focused on how Eric Cartman who was openly bigoted against red-haired people, quickly led a violent insurgence against all non-gingers once he was tricked by the other kids into thinking he was ginger. It was a hilarious Cartman episode and focused on how hypocritical his bigotry was. But after the episode, there was a huge increase in violence and harrassment against red-heads and it's credited for a series of hate crimes and "National Kick a Ginger Day". I would be curious to know in the context of your video how this would be broken down.
an absolutely brilliant essay, just wow. I love how much you compared specific examples to philosophical ideas in such a succinct way. Everything felt so seamless, but when I look back, there's a lot of fairly dense material. this would be a lovely essay to share with someone who isn't quite a part of the queer community, which makes it an incredibly important and poignant work. I'll be sharing this with as many people as will listen.
The most impactful moment I've had in a comedy club was, a black comedian had set up an idea of comparing slaves to Iphones. And, white men always tring to get the "newest model". He used this set up to deliver a number of rapid fire punchlines all of which had the audience mad with laughter. But it was a painful, guilty laughter. As I looked around I saw that all of the white people myself included, were covering their mouth with their heads down. We collectively felt the taboo and white guilt as we laughed. It was such a profound experience.
You don’t have to feel guilty over something you didn’t do, that’s extremely unhealthy and unfair. It also reinforces the concept of collective guilt which has led to countless atrocities and mistreatment
@sackofclams953 SO I bring up the story because it's the only time I've ever really had that feeling. And the comedians delivery was powerful enough to note just give me those mixed feelings, but a full room of people.
I don't think punching up or down makes a joke more or less funny, I think it's just that a bad joke is more likely to get the benefit of the doubt if it's punching up. For example if I say all millionaires are p*dos, it's just as unfunny as if I say the same thing about all homeless people, but it is a lot less likely to do harm so it's likely more people would ignore it and give me a chance to tell another joke that might be funnier. It's not that audiences think the same joke is funny or unfunny depending on who tells it about who, it's that the person telling it is more or less of an asshole depending on the context and that affects the audiences enjoyment.
Yes! And in a way, the people punched up at have more social standing for people to look at them and say "well, that's obviously not true. We can see them right there. That was clearly a joke." Whereas when punching down, it's usually at "unseen" parts of society, where those people are neglected, and people have the option to take the joke as truth. Where those people can't be seen at all, let alone seen in a way that people can go "oh, that's not true, that's just a joke."
The example joke, "beware of homosexuals," could work if you lampshade it a bit and add a new punchline. "I was so offended I couldn't believe my eyes! I just kept reading it over and over. I had to come back and read it again after I complained to the bartender."
@@justaghostintheseahe bends over to read the sign several times. And each time he bends over... But he keeps going back because he enjoys it, creating an incongruity that he's also complaining about it.
Wow this was inclusive. On so many levels. This runs so deep and has so many sides to it that it is easy to just come to some moral conclusion or pin it on a person or group. This deconstructed it all to an extend I have never seen anyone close to and I agree with your statements. It couldn't have been easy to make an hour 20 min video so here have a confirmation that you did a good job you deserve it.
This was exactly the video I was looking for. Upon watching It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, I could not explain why/how the show was funny but not hurtful (generally speaking, I know it's not a perfect show). Thank you for doing this work.
I swear a lot of older comedians would rather just be politicians and religious leaders at this point. Half your job is soap-boxing about whatever you see in society and view as a problem, and finding common ground with your audience over these perceived problems. You're still allowed to try to make jokes in those positions, but being funny is no longer your job, your job is to corral like-minded people and give them reason to further agree with and support you. As much as I'd like for most of them not to go into more official positions of leadership, quite a few of them seem as though they'd exhibit more passion, creativity, charisma, and effort in directional public speaking than they have on their comedy routines in years.
You could make the beware of homosexual joke work by changing it to cougars but that's is a different joke that I stole from the Hitch hikers guide to the galaxy
Having gone through the rise of Trump, I am deathly afraid of the power of humor to influence social opinions. Memetic rhetoric has political power that should be feared.
@@samsmoot1 No, but alliteratively acerbic is alliteratively acerbic. If you're going to try to look smart to try to invalidate someone at least try to convey the point to them without making the insult directed at yourself. Memetic rhetoric to be alliteratively acerbic would have to at least start with the same letters. I think the words you were trying to use is "academically annoying?" Or "academically arrogant?" CherryDad does have a point though.
@@raymondkravitz2001 Cheers, big ears! Thanks for the treatise! What an intellectual powerhouse you are! You should definitely not stop critiquing trite UA-cam comments,' cause that would be SUCH a waste. CherryDad is '...deathly afraid of the power of humor to influence social opinions', so any points subsequently made by them must not be good ones, even if they are.
@@raymondkravitz2001 I do appreciate this by the way, I was trying to find a way to word it in a way that respects the power humor can have. I may have been over the top with my wording as a result haha
I think the funnier thing for me is that he's complaining about PC culture when he took advantage of a teenager and still isn't in jail. Like, bro, you got away with a crime, don't complain that your audience isn't finding jokes funny anymore and you can't innovate.
Yoo! Thanks for spending a huge amount of time and effort making this video! I've always been fascinated with comedy and what makes us laugh and your video genuinely has good points that both affirm and challenge some of the things ive believed about this primal response we call laughter. Wishing you and your family the best! Hope you get big from this vid lol Cheers!
Only 5 minutes in, and I can already see this is going to match Chill Goblin's video on the topic in terms of crucial insight everyone would benefit from hearing and taking to heart. Anyone else who found Mr Woodall's perspective valuable is recommended to also watch the video I referenced on the channel Chill Goblin. I boil the point down to the two principles I try to live by and I argue are everything anyone should need to learn in order to be a decent person. 1) Don't be a fucking asshole. 2) Be nice to each other, goddammit. I say'em like that because being a pottymouth doesn't autoqualify someone as an asshole. However you want to say it, no one would find those to be poor standards of personal conduct... unless they're an asshole.
I wonder if these edgy comics would keep there "As long as you make me laugh, I'm not offended" stance if the person they were watching was stealing jokes and performing them as well or better than the original. There's nothing inherently wrong about performing someone else's work, singers do it all the time. But there's an unwritten rule about not taking another comic's joke, just like there's an unwritten rule about not punching down.
Wow. I actually thought Louis C.K.'s "there" joke was pretty okay until the mother's genitals part. It could easily enough be interpreted as critical of the "attack helicopter" people. Sometimes the hardest part of telling a joke is just knowing when to let it drop, I suppose.
Bummer that the 'rules' of comedy weren't actually a part of this, but am now having relatively deep thoughts on US vs UK comedy. I feel like there is a lot of American context missing here. Which, to be fair, I feel most Americans are unaware of as well, due to the 'rules' being necessarily unspoken. Most importantly though, is my opinion on the toilet joke and how it immediately turned me into a comedic realist, because it is, was, and always will be objectively unfunny. I could talk about this stuff for days and am shutting it up now, sorry yall!
I also feel some aspect can be that you have to be aware of your audience. There are absolutely jokes that I have among my friends that I wouldn't say in front of strangers. It's not because I think they're bigoted or something, it's that they're sex jokes that me and my friends have nominally cleared as okay amongst each other (a lot of it has to do with the various off screen sexual escapades of DnD characters and queer ship fics). And there are elements of this in the cases of "leaked group chats" that I can have some mild sympathy for, when a joke has been FORCED from one audience to another. But it is a very SLIM sympathy. And the concept of "when a joke leaves your Twitter orbit" comes to mind, where you have a community that understands the implicit elements of a joke, and everyone is having good natured fun. But then it breaks containment and moves into groups who don't have the 3 layers of wider context that is needed to get the joke. Like bringing up SuperWhoLock at your tailgate party. But even this has to be balanced with "Well, Twitter is visible by everyone". I'm not gonna give a racist joke a pass because he didn't MEAN for his joke to leave his little circle jerk of nazis. But a trans woman making a T4T joke that a ton of cis people cannot comprehend I don't think should be a problem the trans woman has to "manage". Greatly enjoyed this video, but I also have SO MANY THOUGHTS on this subject. Gonna stop know before I write a whole novel.
For me, the John Mulaney jokes aren't even making fun of the queer stereotypes, there's no suggestion that they're bad. He's just pointing out the incongruity of the fact that he fits them but is straight.
He started one with a reference to his wife then continued "Which is strange because I'm probably gay... Based on how I look and talk and act. I mean, I definitely think I was supposed to be gay. When I was born an angel was like 'you marked that one gay right?' 'No, I thought you did' 'Well he's going to be a very confusing man. A very silly man.'"
Like in this premise, if John WERE gay, then there would be no incongruity and everything would be fine. The error is in his straightness.
He did the same thing when he talked about his class assuming that he was Asian because he had small eyes and a bowl cut. Or how a store assumed he was a woman because of his voice. His jokes are about how ridiculous the things we use to measure identity are by pointing out how he fits them despite not being in those groups.
Yeah but the incongruity depends on the stereotypes existing. And the stereotypes are wrong and incorrect. In gay culture there's a lot of consternation about fluttering, giggling, prancing gay men. They're living up to a stereotype and there's no need to. There's a strong suspicion that they're just putting it on, for whatever reason, and making the rest of us look like idiots by association. That they're embodying the stupid stereotypes that many of the public actually believe, and so giving them reason to.
The prancers fight back with "it's just how I am". People are apparently born theatrical and desperate for attention. Even if they are, leave your sexual preference out of it, mate. The rest suspect, again, that it's just an act, and they should quit it cos it's taking away the credibility of the rest.
So really, it would be nice if these stereotypes died. And John telling you that how he acts makes him gay, but, sharp intake of breath, he ISN'T gay! The incongruity! It's hilarious! But he's necessarily calling gay men a bunch of fairies, and that isn't cool. It's making it worse. Gay men generally don't appreciate the stereotype cos we don't embody, or even recognise, the stereotype. Whether John intends harm or not, he's making us look like idiots. Some of the public don't know any better, or have old, prejudiced views, that John is justifying.
The only thing we should mistake John Mulaney being gay for, would be him sucking some dude off. THAT would be pretty gay. The rest is just bullshit that we've been sick of for quite a while now.
@@animeotaku307yeah it’s how to do the jokes like that properly imo
I remember hearing that the late Norm McDonald say he stopped telling trans jokes because he figured there'd be one guy who'd laugh, then go out and commit a hate crime
Norm MacDonald was a misogynist. Comedy clubs wouldn't let their female employees around him alone. He openly admitted to pretending to be drunk to molest women. He also* defended plenty of male comedians that were accused of sexual assault and harassment.
Norm was mistaken. The connection between the joke and the crime has yet to be established. Such connections are created by criminals who wish to avoid responsibility and are able to do so because they know others will be eager to place the blame elsewhere, like the comedian.
I was just about to mention Norm Macdonald! Specifically, I'd like to hear @jamesWoodall 's thoughts on Norm's "closeted gay man" joke.
💀
Was not aware that he stopped telling them. To be honest I am still soured on him though for his "joke" about Brandon Teena.
"You can't be a good sport when you're not invited to play"
the part about "not being allowed in the room" when offensive jokes are told about your community, especially right after talking about Dave Chappelle, felt really cathartic, for lack of a better term. as a trans woman, when I see clips of Dave Chappelle's show, I don't feel like I'm participating in some good natured ribbing with someone, I feel like I'm watching someone lie about me and serious issues affecting my community, and then telling the audience not to take my concerns seriously so when they get out and I finally get the chance to explain my side of the story to them, a thing I now have to do, they have reason to ignore and dismiss it, making my "job" of helping people understand me, a job I don't even want but have to do by virtue of my identity, much harder
because that's what it is
Interesting paragraph design.
Although everything you just stated is a complete lie? Know how I know your believing in a lie? Have you seen the amount of money Dave’s new special created? Your cult is dying before your eyes and society is waking up to your stupidity.
That is what it is. All of that. Well said.
I asked my ex-wife and her fi to watch The Closer right after I did, giving them zero context. The fi was livid with anger. My ex just wanted to know if that was the sh*t I have to put up with.
What do you feel of Chappell Show? Were you ever a fan of the show?
@@ChristyAbbey what's a fi?
Was nervous to click on this because of how many conservatives like to tussle with the topic of what you can and can’t joke about, but I was reassured by the bisexual lighting in your pfp
Mf said bisexual lighting 💀
LMAOOO thats so real
same lmao
I think it's been a long time since these older comedian's had to cut teeth in small clubs testing new material and dealing with failures. That shit is traumatizing. I can understand why feeling like they're right back there is super uncomfortable. But taking this boomer "I did my time now shut up and give what I'm owed" isn't doing them any favours and is really keeping them from growing again. They could also just decide they don't want to do that anymore and idk retire?
Facts
Absolutely. But all that $ and greed, as usual, fucks it all up. I wish comedians who had their time and lucky enough to monetise it would just, like any good comedian, leave the stage on a high.
You really don't think that these guys test out new material in small clubs anymore? Seinfeld still does. Louis CK still does. Chris Rock still does. George Carlin doesn't anymore because he's dead, but he used to.
People get upset when the jobs they trained for and worked in for years become irrelevant: "I trained as a coal miner/buggy-whip maker/comedian-with-dated-20th-century-sensibilities, and it's unfair that I am no longer able to find work as such!"
@@ShelleyDuncan I wonder if either have considered becoming a solar technician. Very bright future there.
So many good points! These "edgy" comedians are making conservative jokes but they think they are so progressive and revolutionary. Their critics are apparently too sensitive and can't handle their genius boundary-pushing, mind-blowing humor. They act like free speech is so important to them. Meanwhile their skin is not thick enough to handle criticism, and free speech suddenly doesn't apply to their critics. The comedians who criticized their transphobic colleagues did a great job though. Like, "What's the matter boys, too challenging for ya?"
What always amazes me is how the comedians who complain about audiences hating the jokes they’re telling don’t seem to realize that THEIR JOB is to REGULARLY WRITE NEW MATERIAL that audiences enjoy. It’s not the audiences job to laugh at their jokes, it’s their job to write jokes the audience finds funny. If you are incapable of writing fresh material that adapts to audience sensibilities, then maybe you’re just not a good comedian.
I know sometimes it seems like they want to be political commentators with some bullying on the side they want to be like Alex jones, Ben Shapiro, and Joe Rogan like the people who hurl it’s just a joke when they hurt people it’s stupid juvenile shit because they’d rather ride what’s popular and due to trump guess what’s popular
the attitude that comedy is this very Avant guard, or very therapeutic space, or very iconoclastic one is bad for comics. it's something you actually mostly find in people who can't quite get out of the pit of open micing because they just are insensitive to the basic cycle of comedy, which involves not just writing, then performing, but writing, testing, re-writing, then re-testing, then finally professionally performing material. I've seen a lot of people at mics essentially try to turn comedy in an occult ritual to summon laughter - repeat the bit that worked a little one time, and it if doesn't work as well or better the next time it's because the audience doesn't get it, it's not because you never polished it, you didn't read this room, you didn't pay attention to the 3 people before you on the bill and ditch out of a topic the audience heard three times already, etc, you said the incantation right, it's supposed to work!
Like...edit! Listen to the audience. vibe with the audience. does your joke get a laugh before its over? drop the last part or turn it into a second tag, don't rush passed laughter to get YOUR WHOLE JOKE out.
Did you forget part of the setup and the joke worked anyway? that part of the setup, kill it.
Good comics treat writing for the stage as a distinct task, bad ones treat it as an AA meeting where you still get to drink.
This is what I always thought too. Maybe they’re just in denial about how talentless they are lol
Perfectly said 🤌🏼
It's all relative. Controversial jokes that bomb in bigger cities do great in small towns, because people in small towns are less sensitive. Even dirty jokes work better in small towns.
The mistake many comedians make is not knowing their crowds. Know your crowd and what you can get away with.
As a trans woman, and a fan of stand-up comedy, I think about this topic a lot! And quite frankly I couldn't have put my own beliefs into better words than this video does. Bravo Mr Woodall, Bravo!
I’m sure you know about ContraPoints’ video on this The Darkness? 😊
Chil Goblin did a great video about this topic.
Absolutely not. Nothing is more important than freedom of expression. If you’re hypersensitive, go and live in a cave. Jokes do change overtime but self censorship isn’t genuine comedy. Woke comedy in an oxymoron. So who is the arbitrator and decision-maker about what jokes can or cannot be told? You? … the audience will decide. That’s why Ricky et al are all rich - they’re good and genuine.
@@milenad.k.2238 of course, another good video!
@@antjackson4471 I couldn't agree more my friend, freedom of expression is very important to me as well! Ricky has every right to make his shitty jokes, but of course that also mean I have every right to talk about how shitty I think his "jokes" are! Freedom of expression goes both ways. But you obviously know that already because presumably you're a VERY intelligent person! 😊
One thing that struck me is how the bones of the first joke aren't homophobic. You could easily take "sign that chastises you for ignoring warnings while simultaneously putting you in danger by reading it", and transplant it to a construction site or something idk. The homophobia part is secondary to the actual joke, meaning it's literally only there for a cheap haha gay laugh. It's like a whole other even hackier type of offensive joke, distinct from the kind of jokes analyzed in the video
I don't think it actually is all that different. You can also displace identity jokes in a similar way. For instance, a lot of comedians will make jokes about children and the incongruities that can arise from games of imagination. The joke is still "this person is engaging in pretend but observe the way their pretend fails". In that way, you could just as easily say that the bones of identity jokes aren't transphobic.
But the first joke is homophobic because the sign only puts you in danger if you believe that gay people are a threat. Identity jokes are transphobic because they only land if you think trans identities are equivalent to pretending.
Basically, what I'm saying is that hack offense for a cheap laugh is the rule, not the exception.
Try rewriting it in such a way where the position in which you read the 3rd sign is directly associated with the danger the first 2 warned you about, in a way all audience members immediately understand. Until you find a rewrite, I'm pretty sure it had to be a gay joke.
It is worse, the joke depends on the terrible assumption of homosexuals as predators.
Right. Leads to responses like "well it just a knock knock joke! Those are harmless!" When the joke was something just bad like knock knock 9-11
you can move it around, for sure, and that's true of a lot of old, down punchy book jokes, I can think of half dozen at least offhand that I've seen or heard told about different groups interchangeably, but they still need A victim. My great-grandma didn't like, you know, overt racism, so she would just tell them as being about "a lazy person" or "a stupid person," which kind of ruined them, but even then they still had a victim. A lot of "blonde" jokes in 90s standup were just recycled ethnic jokes that used to be about some other group stereotyped as dumb/slutty.
It's weird them saying the criticism makes comedy too "safe" when criticism ought to make them try harder and be more creative, not less. And it's like it hasn't occurred to them that they could be wrong or that anybody could just not find certain things funny anymore.
Also, at every stage of her journey, Izzard is and always has been so much funnier than Gervais 😂
Limits and rules can actually *spark* creativity by forcing people to think their way around those limits and rules. Practically everyone agrees that the original Ren and Stimpy show was infinitely more funny and creative than Adult Party Cartoon, for example.
Absolutely Izzard has always been funnier - I think about that beekeeper bit at least once a week - way more than I think about the Roman Empire anyway
@@orlakenny2987that's such a fun way of measuring how relevant something is to your life. "Do I think about this more or less than the Roman empire? More? Shit it must be pretty dope then."
Gervais is Izzard for Stupid people
But they DO bring an audience so clearely people DO find it funny
I also want to speak up from the perspective of a disabled person, we are so often the butt of the joke that getting offended is seen as extremely sensitive. This happens even in liberal spaces.
The main problem anti-woke comedians haven't internalized is that some groups of people face a lot of unfair hostility and violence just for being who they are, and that certain types of jokes targeting such groups help normalize and perpetuate that harm.
EDIT: Just finished the video. You said it better than I did. Great work.
what groups are those, again?
@@DexDexter0 The ones that get shit on through no fault of their own so some other group of people can pretend they are superior.
The "Let The Audience Decide" piece is so bullshit too, like hey when you put your shit on netflix you cant start crying that your audience expanded outside the room of your superfans
Also since when as an audience or general population ever decided anything that was reasonable, nuanced, or in their best interests etc? Eventually a room full of turkeys will vote for christmas.
And in Dave’s case it’s like only his super fans that are also rich because tickets aren’t cheap.
@@satyasyasatyasya5746who is to say what are the best interests.
@@satyasyasatyasya5746this is a very authoritarian comment. If the people aren’t fit to lead themselves then who is? A monarch? A select group of oligarchs?
@@sackofclams953 "authoritarian" means nothing here. its too vague.
and yes, the people can't govern themselves, we've tried that, and look what happens. A criticism can stand without an alternative. I have no alternative but I know and so do you, that a mob doesn't govern, a crowd doesn't think, a group doesn't parse information properly, a populace doesn't do data and research, a so-called nation doesn't know what it wants or needs.
From a comedy analysis perspective, I would add that the sense of play is more than just “I’m being aggressive but we’re just having fun”, it is also a sociological test to see if someone else can take a joke. That is to say, if I make fun of my friend because they talk too much, Depending on how they perceive it, they could be insulted, or they could acknowledge their foible and laugh. If they are insulted, that’s an indication that we’re not friends. It’s an indication that there is a room that we are in where making fun of them is not allowed. This is what happened with Donald Trump at the Correspondents dinner hosted by Seth Myers. Seth Myers did what was understood to be done, and he made fun of people who were attending the event. But Donald Trump did not enjoy being made fun of, he was insulted. He and Seth Myers are not friends.
Alternatively, if a person can understand and accept their foibles, and laugh when someone points them out in a jocular way, then those two people can be friends. It’s not universally true that someone laughing at being made fun of means that they are friendly. But not being able to laugh at being made fun of means that you are not friends.
I would argue that the confusion here from professional accomplished comedians who are saying that they are not allowed to make fun of others is one in which they are saying you assume that we are not friends.
a good example of this impact is watching old routines by Don Rickles. Even at the time, it would be very easy to interpret his jokes as being offensive. He aimed directly at the stereotypes that were common of the day, that if they were said on the street between two strangers, a fight would break out afterwards. However, in context, it was understood that he was friends with these people, and they would laugh. Now I don’t know if Sammy Davis Junior was ever actually offended professionally, but on screen, he appeared to be friendly with Don Rickles when Don would make those kinds of jokes.
Where our older comedians, and even some of our younger comedians, are having trouble, is seeing how what they’re doing now is different from what Don Rickles did then. Because if you look very clearly and analyze his comedy, it isn’t significantly different from what’s happening here.
But that’s just the text.
The subject I think is actually what makes the difference. When you watch Ricky Gervais or Dave Chappelle in their most recent specials, it’s not just that they’re making fun of trans people. And by the way, it makes a difference that there’s no trans person on stage like a roast. Having the target of your derision in front of you makes a huge difference as to how the joke is perceived. But in addition, there is an edge of anger. It’s not a situation where these people are friends with the subject of their jokes. They are angry at them because they perceive that the trans community, and the greater community, is telling them they can’t think or feel the way they think or feel. it is this anger in the joke that makes it offensive. The moment that you actually believe the offensive stereotype, it is no longer a joke.
Growing up, my dad, who had very little sense of humor about himself, would say that when somebody makes a joke about you, about your foibles, it means that’s what they really believe about you. He would get offended. There is truth to this. A bully will make jokes about your foibles to put you down and take advantage of you. In that situation, a lot of people will laugh at the joke to take control away from the bully, and deflate their insults. That doesn’t make the insult any less true.
The difference is, When you make fun of someone’s foibles to their face, and do so not because you’re angry with them, but because you either love them, or respect them enough to put up with those foibles, then the joke itself is not a weapon, it is instead a handshake, an invitation to be friendly. An invitation to show that you are friends.
when the joke is an insult that is not done from a place of love, but instead comes from a place of defensiveness and anger, then it is just an insult, and we are not friends.
Long comment but you laid it out perfectly. Dave is mad that he can’t make good trans jokes and that anger is coming across in his new “jokes” too much
Exactly! You made a really good comment.
You said it so well
I think also joking can be more than one thing at a time. You can be assaying where you are with someone, the way you're talking about, and also kind of jostling with them for domience as well.
It's really complicated when people are called out for one and assert the other, this is a specific kind of bullying you actually see between comics a lot, where the social game is the most gregarious person gets to talk the most... comics well say shit they clearly do mean, but if they got a laugh when they said it, and the person objects to the sincere aspect, they defend is a joke, motte and bailey style. I'm talking about off stage, like when comics socialize with each other. because comics are basically what you get if you take a regular theater kid and give them really, really bad irony poisoning.
Another great comment! Thank you for sharing
I can't stand it when people are like "so what if I wanna make fun of someone who's a shitty person, but they just happen to be of a marginalized identity?" THEN MAKE FUN OF THE PERSON!! Better yet, make fun of what makes them shitty! Don't make fun of the identity.
If I'm gonna tell a joke about Dave Chappelle, it's gonna be about how he's a transphobic piece of crap, not about how he's a black man.
FUCKING BINGO! Make fun of the person for the ideas they hold, the groups they're choosing to be a part of, the aspects of their personhood *that **_can_** be changed.* Don't make fun of someone for something immutable.
It's the "5 second rule" on appearance. Don't tell your friend about something that can't be fixed in about 5-15 seconds. Lipstick on the teeth? Underwear poking out? Yes, tell them. But if it requires a complete change of outfit (that shirt looks tacky with those pants) you keep your mouth shut.
Same idea. If it's something they can change about who they are, like an idiology, something they said, how they're treating people, yes, point it out. But if it's something inherent to their identity like their gender, sexualily, or race, just keep your mouth shut.
This feels like back when twitter was still twitter, trying to explain to people that mocking a very high-profile offensive political figure for being a known sex offender and a traitor is fine, but mocking him for being substantially overweight and having cognitive issues associated with age would just hurt perfectly decent people who happened to be living with those issues themselves, or had a loved one living with those issues.
Heard that's the difference between conservative comedians and liberal comedians tbh...
Great video, and congratulations on being the best James on UA-cam.
James Prime
It's a very mixed bag, the James here, I mean. Glad the plagiarist one left 😂
the way that punching down becomes internalized too. as a trans girl im concerningly transphobic because of being socialized that way. sometimes i catch myself laughing when i shouldn't when i dissociate from who ik i am. i'm not perfect and i really enjoy this insight into the complexity of the topic as i've never heard someone discuss the whole thing so concisely and accurately. i subbed :)
You shouldn't feel bad for laughing at offensive jokes because you can't always control how you react to things. As long as you retain a critical mind and understand why the joke is wrong/harmful, you're alright. The jokes may be bad, but you aren't. Remember not to be too hard on yourself.
How equal and included are you when nobody can joke about you equally?
@@vitaminwater9662 no. It's actually exclusionary if we're not on equal terms
@@Emppu_T. Did u watch the video
Oh,,, I thought the ‘beware of gays’ joke was that it was you reflected in the mirror
lol same!
It doesn't matter that people make bad jokes about political topics. It matters that there's a room full of people that find them hillarious.
the media you view has an affect on how you see the world so both matter and both are bad and both feed eachother.
Well that’s the whole point here, it is on the comedian to pick better topics because the average person will laugh at a joke that offends a marginalized group even if they don’t believe in that joke themselves, the initial shock factor, tension, etc. makes people laugh before they can even decide if it’s socially acceptable
A horse runs into a bar, the jockey sends it to the glue factory
"things are still a little tense"
Me watching the Tories promise to continue to abuse Trans kids and PROTECT anti-trans views because "they're a belief": well that's an understatement 😅
I was wondering what I was going to watch while pretending to do work today, on this Friday before Christmas. Thanks James!
I find the science behind laughter fascinating. Babies and toddlers laugh before they even know language, so our brains are wired to respond to things that challenge what we know but not in an offensive way (goofy or silly things).
My theory is that Schadenfreude (laughing at the misfortune of others) is the most basic form of humor. Babies laugh when you pretent to get hurt, before they laugh at anything else.
@@lupo3694 But babies mostly laugh out of surprise when they discover you're not actually hurt. That's not really Schadenfreude. They don't usually laugh at people who are genuinely hurt.
@tommylakindasorta3068 Not really, they laugh way before that. If you want to make a baby laugh, pretent to trip, or hit your thumb with a hammer or some stupid stuff like that. The love that shit. Also, most adults don't think it is funny when someone is seriously injured. That is called not being a total psychopath.
@@lupo3694 I'm not looking for a debate but the baby thing has an explanation other than the one you've stated.
Unbelievably well written video on something many feel but are unable to express in such concrete terms. When you say this was the most difficult script to write, I absolutely believe it. Massive props
I'd love it these comedians could show me the big thing they accomplished by telling jokes. Have they led a social movement that improved anything? When?
It seems weird to me that the intro part omits the aspect of execution. You can have a killer joke, but on the hands of someone who can't deliver it well - without proper timing, adequate body language, etc - it may well bomb. Hell, you may have all that and still have it bomb on a given crowd. Every comedian has stories of this happening. It's part of the craft. In the same way, you can imagine a bad joke being really funny if it's delivered by a particular person with a certain execution. Someone like, say, William Montgomery, does this a lot. Comedy is so much more than just the writing.
This feels like it was addressed throughout the video, just not said outright. Like how with John Mulaney delivers his gay jokes. They stick not just because of what he's saying, but how he's saying it. Though this is a good point to make. Delivery is very important. It just kind of gets spread out over the who, what, when, where, and why, rather than said plainly that "delivery matters."
A James to wash the James out of my mouth!
And my script editor is called Nick. We'll happily take the vacancy.
Happily given! Love your content congratulations
who is the other james?
You are criminally unknown. Great video, one of my faves of the year x
This was such a good video. Mostly I put videos on so I can go do my crappy chores but I'm done watching the video now and the dishes are still in the sink, I lowkey blame you for that.
Ive had this discussion with my parents multiple times, and ive always felt like i never had the right words or examples to bring to the table. This video is so well done, thank you!
I struggle to accept this fact; sometimes your entire vocabulary in all your languages won't be enough for a person that is not yet ready to listen.
Also I'm a hypocrite, I have many times refused to listen simply because I had to get to that point on my own, like the opinion of my loved ones about how a partner was treating me and pointing out that patterns are repeating not improving. So I am no wiser by being aware of this.
god every clip of Ricky Gervais feels like he's just playing his character from the office attempting to be a stand-up. i'm just turning inside out from cringe watching him. knowing that someone paid money to see him feels like a red flag not just because of tacit endorsement of his shit opinions but having shit taste in comedy too
Yet he sells
@@Emppu_T. Piss off
It sucks watching him do this. Same with Stephen Merchant. The podcast they did with Karl Pilkington was pure gold but those days are long past now
fascinating (and hilarious) dissection of such a complicated issue! imo a lot of the arguments around what can and cant be said in comedy tend to feel very one-dimensional and simplistic, its great to see such a thoughtful and nuanced look at this. so many things you said seem so obvious in retrospect. rly makes sense now why a lot of older comedians cant accept that younger ppl just dont find their jokes funny- its always "my jokes are funny, young people are just too easily offended so they dont laugh" when in all likelihood young people might just no longer find the thing they're ridiculing to be inherently ridiculous (trans people,, existing?), and if the joke is lazy and has nothing else to it then why would they find it funny?
I think younger people also have more exposure to trans people because visibility has been higher and people are becoming slowly more accepting, so we know more about trans people than an older audience. If you want to make us laugh you have to go deeper than “girl with a penis haha.”
This is an excellent video. I love humor theory and the way you presented it was so professional and unbiased
Amazing video once more James! Very much appreciate the research behind it and also the way you delivered it!
This is the best video I've ever watched on this topic, I really appreciate that the tone is gentle yet firm. I hope it changes a lot of people's minds on this issue, fantastic work
i was going to say essentially the same thing, then i saw your comment so… i second this sentiment!!
Holy shit, this is incredibly well written. I’ve never been able to follow along and actually take in so many new concepts in such a short amount of time.
this is my favorite video essay, really interesting and exelent narration and pacing, hope your channel and videos get the recognition they deserve (greetings from Argentina)
As a trans person, the only thing Dave Chappelle said that offended me was his insistence that Hannah Gadsby isn't funny because she is.
I'm glad you showed James Acaster's joke about Ricky, and Frankie Boyle's, but Nish Kumar's is my favorite. "What did trans people do?! There's like 12 of them!" kills me EVERY time.
Omg I love that River Butcher stand-up, I relate so hard as a trans man.
The Louis C. K. joke genuinely made me laugh, it's so depressing he leaned into his new audience if people who don't give a fuck if he sexually assaulted people.
Do you also like Russel Howard and Chris Ramsay too?
@petrify4814: Ohhh! Can I answer your question as to why so many people hate the trans community. Hmm maybe it’s because their in a wacky cult, in which the laws of biology do not apply. And when you present biological realities to trans people, they scream and call you “transphobic”. Do you understand now?
i also like that the Acaster clip was released the day after The Closer.
Everything Dave says now is disgustingly offensive... Except about Hannah. Because she is terribly unfunny
The "misunderstanding" around punching down (in quotes because I'm not convinced it is a misunderstanding most of the time) is that it's not about "punching" at someone "below you" as such, it's about "punching down" at someone, or a group where the fist as it were *is* their status as inferior in some way.
Nobody cares if you crack jokes about Dave Chapelle, despite him being a black man. People would likely be a bit less forgiving if the joke is him being black, and therefore inferior.
I think Daniel Sloss is a brilliant dark humor comedian. In his special, aptly named, "Dark" he discusses the death of his younger sister. In Jigsaw he discusses being in an abusive relationship. In X he discusses sex and rape. All of these things are dark, yet he's able to tell these stories and make a comedy out of them all while never truly punching down.
I always thought it was interesting that "I identify as an attack helicopter" and "ah yes the two genders" are at some level the same joke, calling something absurd a gender. But the former originated in reactionary circles painting transexuality as absurd, whereas the latter originated in queer circles painting societal gender roles as absurd. You need to know the history of the formats to know why one signals bigotry and one signals trans affirmation.
Two of my favorite Facebook memes groups are "ah yes the two genders" and "ah yes the three genders" xD
But it’s sort of predicted what was going to happen coz now people are identifying as a bunny, an self, a ghost, one girl got suspended from school coz she didn’t want to call her classmate a cat, so the attack helicopter was a joke pointing out the absurdity of people thinking they can identify as anything
@@TayWoode I honestly highly doubt a lot of what you think people have actually identified as..
Especially the cat thing.. Some dude in a congressional meeting said it.
Never happened
@@stevenalexander6033 you American by chance? Or not British more specifically?
@@stevenalexander6033 if you could be bothered to do the research you’d find it’s a true story not some dude in a congress meeting. But of course you won’t bother to look it up coz you’re either too lazy or too scared you’ll be proved wrong and too proud to admit you were wrong
explaining and analyzing a joke only ever makes it funnier for me.
I think that people who think otherwise just don’t want people to read through their shitty, not clever jokes
@@xXSprMgaAwsmFxyHtXxthis is a shockingly good metric for a lot of things. As an amateur magician, I tend to tell people to be selective about the tricks they learn the secrets of, because if you aren't going to become a performing magician, you are going to spoil the magic for yourself for a lot of tricks. But other tricks, once you learn how they're done, make you go "Oh that's really clever" or similar.
I think it's the same with humor. If you break it down and it's only funny because you said something shocking, then you aren't really doing comedy. If I can break down a joke and find the bits where it's challenging preconceived notions in an interesting way, or there's a clever play on words that hasn't been done a thousand times, or really anything of substance, then I can appreciate the craft and wit that went into making the joke funny.
I wish I could have watched this video a few years ago before I researched my Social Anthropology dissertation project. This video was excellently researched and well written, and puts my University of Edinburgh dissertation, entitled 'What Are You Laughing At? Gender and Sexuality in Improv Comedy' to shame. It also touched on a number of issues which, as a comedy and social scientist nerd, I had struggled to formulate titanium ideas on. Despite agreeing with you on almost, if not, everything you said, I still feel that there are grey areas in my own perceptions of the interaction between comedy and social issues, which I think is healthy and to be encouraged, but your presentation did help me to further process challenging thoughts on these topics.
Honestly, I think a big reason that Frank Carson joke was funny is because he *sounds funny.* I think many comedians' jokes bomb when told by other comedians, because they just don't have the specific funny inflection that makes the joke work.
Not trying to discount any of your points, this video was great! Just felt like I had to make that point known.
What kills me about Carr's Holocaust joke is the Jehovah's Witnesses were right there
Substituting the group for one you're more comfortable trashing on doesn't change the wrongness of it
The leaders, hell yeah, dunk on them all you want. The followers? People who are in cults as followers are VICTIMS. Let me repeat. They're VICTIMS. Victims can absolutely perpetuate harm or even directly commit harm themselves and still be victims. You can be an abuser and an abuse victim. In fact, most of them are. The world isn't black and white. Welcome to the concept of nuance
exactly what i was thinking. like yeah, it would still be a bad joke making light of a genocide but it would no longer be tied to a racial/ethnic minority and he would no longer be using a slur to do it. people already hate jehovah's witnesses, it's like making fun of mormons
I thought i had already thought this topic out quite thoroughly for my own position, but you offered many new perspectives and have given me food for thought. Merci!
Dave Chapell: "Well im not a ------ either!"
AND IM NOT A FUCKING CIAGRETTE
This was brilliant. Shared with my comedy-loving mother. Thank you for this incredible insight.
See, that's the thing. I will always acknowledge that cis and straight people are capable of telling jokes about us, at our expense even - but they have to know what they're talking about first. When I hear an ally making a joke at my expense but shows that they know us, our weird quirks and particularities... that's comedy. What offends me isn't that a joke is levied at me, but rather that the mockery comes from a lack of understanding.
The Chappelle situation makes me sad. He completely neglects that black trans people suffer the worst abuse in either of our categories. The safety of PoC trans people has been the most pressing issue in the trans community for decades, yet it never gets the attention it deserves... Which is why it's all the more hurtful when they get swept under the rug like that.
Exactly. He literally writes off queer black people multiple times in his specials. He first says it’s only a white thing. Then at another point he says it’s more important that black queer people are black than that they are queer. And I think he ultimately doesn’t want to be intersectional because of the money he has. If we work on things for everyone he will ultimately have to pay more taxes because the rich aren’t taxed enough as it is. Whereas incremental changes that only help black people won’t hurt his pocket as much…
And none of this even goes into the homophobia and transphobia that’s specific to the black community and more specifically cis straight black men. But as long as he paints the trans jokes as him vs white people, he can avoid that subject
A lesbian comedian I like often makes jokes about trans/nb and autistic people, but they're "in community" jokes still because like you said, there's a deep understanding of the culture even though she's cis and not autistic
It's strange when "comedians" claim to be necessary assholes then get mad when people call them assholes. You wanted to push buttons and people got offended by having their buttons pushed. I don't know what you expected.
It's not just the lack of introspection and assholery for me. It's when they claim victimhood by using concepts that don't apply.
No, cancellation isn't "oh no I don't have an audience anymore because they can't take a joke". Freedom of speech isn't the fact that platforms won't hire you for your audience hating the offensive joke you made.
That's you producing bullshit and people reacting to bullshit.
And anyway a true "cancellation" is just a very tame word to mean "someone got the clink for abusing and raping people". Freedom of speech carries the same thing of "what the fuck are you talking about?"
There are no FCC fines, no jail time, no court cases what are you complaining about other than you being upset the audience isn't laughing and is making it really clear they don't like you?
I'm annoyed at what the English language has become because at this point, people are using words completely wrongly when they want to claim unfairness with no basis.
You’ve done a stunning job in this video! I’m enamored by your methodology. I’ll be coming back for seconds soon enough
Excellent video, actually. Hope it goes places! :)
Oooh, starting around 1:05:00 was the best description I’ve ever heard about people laughing at those kinds of jokes.
This was tremendously thoughtful and didn't ignore any complexity. Context is vital.
I was expecting breadtube essay I can listen to and just chuckle along. However this is very well researched, structured and argumented piece on par with scientific paper. Well done.
Excellent video. A wonderful progression of thoughtful plus comedy into a really good more serious look at comedy politics and speech. Even after finishing it that opening was something special with how pitch perfect you cracked jokes. And a lot to digest and think about. Thank you Mr. Woodall!
17:55 in some radio stations they have a poster that lists off those words as the big nonos of radio
These "comedians" (I use that word because that's what they describe themselves as, not because they're funny) are so entitled to laughs that they'll chastise the audience for not clapping like seals when they say some ignorant thing. "Cancelling" has always just been traditionally powerful people not being treated as better than everyone else. Being told to shut up on social media is not a life-ending crime, that is called "Tuesday" for most people. Normal people get over it quickly, these people act like someone just spat on their mother's grave. They're so used to privilege of wealth, fame or status that they can't even comprehend that they might not be entitled to universal acclaim.
I do stand up and there's a guy in our circle who complains that audiences are too woke and even if that were true what does he want us to do? Get an entirely new audience? He isn't making the people in front of him laugh, he's failing to do his job.
Dave Chappell, Jerry Seinfeld and Bill Burr aren’t funny? Uh, yeah sure dude.
@@voiceunderthecovers Dave Chapelle is very funny when he isn't going on a diatribe about trans people. And yeah Jerry Seinfeld isn't funny... that one seems less controversial.
I agree with some of your points but being canceled isn’t having one person tell you to shut up, it’s having dozens, hundreds or thousands of people telling you to shut up, telling you you’re a bad person and often telling you to end your life.
If anything I’d say celebrities have it easier when it comes to mass harassment, they can pay people to look at that stuff for them, they have body guards and security to handle death threats and threats on their life, a normal person has none of that. I’m all for justice, but lets not suggest things that aren’t true. If a normal person gets cancelled they are not getting a comeback tour.
@@mimipeahes5848 The vast, VAST majority of people claiming to be cancelled are not receiving death threats; and no regular person is getting cancelled on the internet.
Now that I've watched this to the end twice, I feel I understand enough to share my two cents;
When I was a little girl to my early teens comedy shows were huge in Kenya. Lazy Kenyan comedians, always somewhat famous and with a platform, always made this sort of joke; why do the blind people always say "I see"? It never failed to annoy me.
The first time I heard it was my favorite teacher parroting that joke to the delight of my classmates but at my expense; the most time I heard it was a bully teacher always using it to shut me down and embarrass me and she'd go as far as making it impossible for me to not use that phrase and punish me if I refused to speak. It's a very common turn of phrase in all our official languages and you'd have to sound unusually pedantic to say I know without using I see and you couldn't refer to watching TV at all or sound dumb using the phrase for listening to the radio to say you watched TV. Classmates used it, family used it, friends used it, foe used it, everybody made use of that joke against me and my friends all the damn time. It was horrible.
Our integration teachers were using it, our transcribers, our social workers, our doctors; we were swimming in this micro-aggresion and being policed for no good reason.
One day, we were seated in our integrations office and my friend started talking about "listening to the TV" and she'd go on and on about listening to the TV this, listening to the TV that till I snapped at her to cut it out. She burst into tears asking asking what was she supposed to do if she couldn't even talk without people making fun of her. I turned to one of our transcribers and started yelling at him that he should've known better 😂😂😂, it was a whole thing that the district education officer had to come mediate because I just wouldn't stop chastizing people around school (I was doing it to anyone that would or had made that joke and making a lot of enemies). The joke kinda stopoed but only around me, my one crying friend and my one friend that was great at being a grade A bitch right back. Only one person apologized, she'd never made that joke, and she was my school principal. We don't really have much to laugh about in Kenya nowadays, and I'm glad about it if it's going to add to our unnecessary policing, but every now and then someone reminisces about that joke.
You really can never trust the public to understand the joke or not carry it to bigotry's end. I don't support any punching down joke (low key why I absolutely loved what Will Smith did, it'd end it so fast if someone always slogged those jokestars so casually punching down) and I never *not humiliate* anyone using the dreaded "I see joke" but it's sad I'm still doing it though.
I'm not sure you have all the facts of the "Will Smith thing." Taken at face value, Jada is mostly at fault, then Will, while Chris Rock is pretty much innocent.
@@bluntrapture wait, are you kidding me? Two men fight on the public arena but a woman that was quietly unamused is carried the blame? You must have really practiced how to, to be able to this well, embody mysogyny this well.
Chris Rock punched down. Jada Pickett Smith was unnecessarily humiliated *for a stranger's career* growth. And Will Smith punched a fool. He cried, he boohooed but he still learnt to not go around casually insulting stranger's for money.
And do you know who else has made a seemingly punching down joke part of his Oscar routine? Seth MacFarlane when he sang that boobies song! Do you know what he did to not unnecessarily humiliate and hurt people? He asked them permission beforehand and made them part of the joke and *not the punchline of it.* They knew the joke was happening and had the chance to work out the joke with him to not be humiliated, he _wasn't punching down._
Yeah, I always get equally annoyed whenever I see people making jokes about the phrase "I hear..." and deaf people not hearing whatever it is, because it's a lazy and overused joke. As a deaf person, there are so many better jokes that you could make about us, because yes, not being able to understand what's going on can lead to incredibly humorous situations. A good example of that is Trevor Noah's entire set "Jokes About Deaf People," which is funny because it's creative in how it pokes fun at the usually taboo topic of disability, and how people are often totally unprepared to deal with disabled people.
@@availanila I've heard the personal history of Jada and Will, and that's what made me think she's not squeaky clean in this whole thing. But I don't actually know any of them or have any eyewitness experiences, so I'm just speculating in the UA-cam comment section. Just doing what everybody else is doing --- talking about stuff I know nothing about.
@@bluntrapture yeah but we're talking about a well televised moment in time where Chris Rock made a joke at Jada Pickett-Smith's expense and got slapped for the gal. You're saying she's to blame because she was hurt and embarrassed someone made a fool of her... what's your angle here? How is she to blame a bully for his up and comings?
This is such a good video
The balance of education and humour is perfect in my opinion. I did laugh but I also gained a deeper understanding for why certain jokes rub me the wrong way and how to better notice the jokes targeting other minorities.
"You don't just lose the comedy game; you become the football."
That, my friend, is brilliantly said.
This was a really well articulated and thoughtful video and you've given me a fair bit to think about. I remember doing some basic intro psych courses in college including one about humor, and I think the main lesson I took away from that is that humor is likely not one unitary thing and it is probable that many of the dominant theories have some amount of truth to them. I definitely agree with the idea that comedians have the responsibility to meet the audience halfway - you don't get to complain that the audience didn't take the joke in the good spirit it was intended if you don't make a good faith effort to actually intend that spirit, and that entails at least knowing what you're talking about to some extent and not just repeating old bigoted talking points in the form of a joke,
I think the most telling point about this whole issue is that comedians who have been "cancelled" for the reasons of an offensive joke don't understand what freedom of speech really is and what cancelling someone really is. For example, actually canceling someone would be that they did something criminal (Louis C.K, Russel Brand). Whereas if they're just going "oh no I hope I don't get canceled for this one joke" they're conflating the drying up of gigs and the failure of a joke to land with "don't take away my free speech, you're too sensitive".
To be honest, it's been difficult going through this seeing the meanings of words get fucked over and trampled on. George Carlin would be rolling over in his grave to see words misused so readily. Cries of "freedom of speech being ruined" and "oh no I hope I don't get cancelled over this ehehehhee" really just ring of self victimization instead of taking responsibility and making a clever offensive joke or just really a funny joke.
Sometimes I just have to think, "you're not a comedian, you're just a bully with a microphone that needs validation from other pieces of shit and when you don't get it you cry foul".
@@raymondkravitz2001facts
9:29
Though this is a small part of the video, and I feel like this comment reflects that in being short, I do want to say that this quote answers itself.
If making fun of someone who has all of those traits which make you want to tell jokes about them is considered punching down, then make it more general. Don't joke about one specific person, joke about people who are smug, aggressive, self-satisfied - whatever - just don't joke about who they define themself.
Here's an example. If there is a self centered gay man qnd you want to make fun of him because he's self centered, then do that. Don't bring up that he's gay, just make fun of him for being self centered. Don't joke about him being gay when you want to joke about him being self centered.
Crazy idea, I know, but I had to share my thoughts.
Excellent and helpful piece. It's something I've been struggling to get a grip on - the philosophical theories and conclusion give a good vocabulary and working model. Thank you!
The thing that gets me is after 9/11 SNL was one of the first comedy shows to come back, and the writers took the UPMOST care in crafting that episode. Comedians understand tact when they understand the impact of the stubject they are joking about. THIS is why it's telling when someone makes a bigoted joke in bad taste; It's indicitive of their own ignorance or indifference on the subject of the joke. The way Dave jokes about trans people tells me he either doesn't understand them or just doesn't care about them.
On the topic of how jokes can further prejudice, South Park's "Ginger Kids" episode may be a good example.
In the context of the episode, the plot was clearly absurd and focused on how Eric Cartman who was openly bigoted against red-haired people, quickly led a violent insurgence against all non-gingers once he was tricked by the other kids into thinking he was ginger. It was a hilarious Cartman episode and focused on how hypocritical his bigotry was.
But after the episode, there was a huge increase in violence and harrassment against red-heads and it's credited for a series of hate crimes and "National Kick a Ginger Day".
I would be curious to know in the context of your video how this would be broken down.
an absolutely brilliant essay, just wow. I love how much you compared specific examples to philosophical ideas in such a succinct way. Everything felt so seamless, but when I look back, there's a lot of fairly dense material. this would be a lovely essay to share with someone who isn't quite a part of the queer community, which makes it an incredibly important and poignant work. I'll be sharing this with as many people as will listen.
The most impactful moment I've had in a comedy club was, a black comedian had set up an idea of comparing slaves to Iphones. And, white men always tring to get the "newest model".
He used this set up to deliver a number of rapid fire punchlines all of which had the audience mad with laughter.
But it was a painful, guilty laughter. As I looked around I saw that all of the white people myself included, were covering their mouth with their heads down. We collectively felt the taboo and white guilt as we laughed. It was such a profound experience.
You don’t have to feel guilty over something you didn’t do, that’s extremely unhealthy and unfair. It also reinforces the concept of collective guilt which has led to countless atrocities and mistreatment
@sackofclams953 SO I bring up the story because it's the only time I've ever really had that feeling. And the comedians delivery was powerful enough to note just give me those mixed feelings, but a full room of people.
I’m not sure how I came across this, but as a huge fan of comedy, I think you’ve done the best job of breaking down comedy I’ve ever heard in my life
59:35
The gamers rise up subreddit had a rule against signaling that it was a joke and then it became sincere; then it was taken down for racism.
27:25 Imagining James up at 4am with bloodshot eyes googling "best transgender joke"
I don't think punching up or down makes a joke more or less funny, I think it's just that a bad joke is more likely to get the benefit of the doubt if it's punching up. For example if I say all millionaires are p*dos, it's just as unfunny as if I say the same thing about all homeless people, but it is a lot less likely to do harm so it's likely more people would ignore it and give me a chance to tell another joke that might be funnier. It's not that audiences think the same joke is funny or unfunny depending on who tells it about who, it's that the person telling it is more or less of an asshole depending on the context and that affects the audiences enjoyment.
Yes! And in a way, the people punched up at have more social standing for people to look at them and say "well, that's obviously not true. We can see them right there. That was clearly a joke." Whereas when punching down, it's usually at "unseen" parts of society, where those people are neglected, and people have the option to take the joke as truth. Where those people can't be seen at all, let alone seen in a way that people can go "oh, that's not true, that's just a joke."
This was a REALLY good video.
Fantastic video! Always wondered why I feel some politically charged humor passes the "vibe check" and some doesn't.
It’s because conservative jokes aren’t funny. The right can’t meme 😂
Thanks!
Much appreciated!
The example joke, "beware of homosexuals," could work if you lampshade it a bit and add a new punchline.
"I was so offended I couldn't believe my eyes! I just kept reading it over and over. I had to come back and read it again after I complained to the bartender."
What's the punchline?
The search for the punchline
@@justaghostintheseahe bends over to read the sign several times. And each time he bends over...
But he keeps going back because he enjoys it, creating an incongruity that he's also complaining about it.
Wow this was inclusive. On so many levels. This runs so deep and has so many sides to it that it is easy to just come to some moral conclusion or pin it on a person or group. This deconstructed it all to an extend I have never seen anyone close to and I agree with your statements. It couldn't have been easy to make an hour 20 min video so here have a confirmation that you did a good job you deserve it.
Your video essays are always bomb! Thank you for posting top tier analyses.
Great essay. A nice counter to (or complement to?) "Can We Take a Joke." Excellent use of the three types of humor. Thanks for this.
im so confused is this live or is the public just a sound effects
It's sound effects, but I'm delighted they were convincing enough to cause doubt.
someone PLEASE show this video to Dave Chappelle
Nowadays, no matter what you say, someone will find it offensive. Some people work so hard at being offended!
Did you watch the video?
This was exactly the video I was looking for. Upon watching It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, I could not explain why/how the show was funny but not hurtful (generally speaking, I know it's not a perfect show). Thank you for doing this work.
I swear a lot of older comedians would rather just be politicians and religious leaders at this point. Half your job is soap-boxing about whatever you see in society and view as a problem, and finding common ground with your audience over these perceived problems. You're still allowed to try to make jokes in those positions, but being funny is no longer your job, your job is to corral like-minded people and give them reason to further agree with and support you. As much as I'd like for most of them not to go into more official positions of leadership, quite a few of them seem as though they'd exhibit more passion, creativity, charisma, and effort in directional public speaking than they have on their comedy routines in years.
This video has a criminal lack of views. Keep up the great work, hope the comment boosts the algorithm. ❤
This guy is criminally underrated
You could make the beware of homosexual joke work by changing it to cougars but that's is a different joke that I stole from the Hitch hikers guide to the galaxy
The main problem I see is lazy joke writers who are used to getting a free pass. Seinfeld is a perfect example.
I'm completely on board with this video.
Amazing work!
Having gone through the rise of Trump, I am deathly afraid of the power of humor to influence social opinions. Memetic rhetoric has political power that should be feared.
'Memetic rhetoric' is alliteratively acerbic.
@@samsmoot1 No, but alliteratively acerbic is alliteratively acerbic.
If you're going to try to look smart to try to invalidate someone at least try to convey the point to them without making the insult directed at yourself.
Memetic rhetoric to be alliteratively acerbic would have to at least start with the same letters.
I think the words you were trying to use is "academically annoying?" Or "academically arrogant?"
CherryDad does have a point though.
@@raymondkravitz2001 Cheers, big ears! Thanks for the treatise! What an intellectual powerhouse you are! You should definitely not stop critiquing trite UA-cam comments,' cause that would be SUCH a waste.
CherryDad is '...deathly afraid of the power of humor to influence social opinions', so any points subsequently made by them must not be good ones, even if they are.
@@raymondkravitz2001 I do appreciate this by the way, I was trying to find a way to word it in a way that respects the power humor can have. I may have been over the top with my wording as a result haha
This is fantastic. Thanks for the great watch!
Jerry Seinfeld complaining about PC culture will always be the funniest thing in the world to me after his behaviour recently.
I think the funnier thing for me is that he's complaining about PC culture when he took advantage of a teenager and still isn't in jail.
Like, bro, you got away with a crime, don't complain that your audience isn't finding jokes funny anymore and you can't innovate.
Seinfeld calling people creepy when he was the one dating a high schooler at nearly 40 years old is certainly interesting
Yoo! Thanks for spending a huge amount of time and effort making this video! I've always been fascinated with comedy and what makes us laugh and your video genuinely has good points that both affirm and challenge some of the things ive believed about this primal response we call laughter. Wishing you and your family the best! Hope you get big from this vid lol
Cheers!
Only 5 minutes in, and I can already see this is going to match Chill Goblin's video on the topic in terms of crucial insight everyone would benefit from hearing and taking to heart. Anyone else who found Mr Woodall's perspective valuable is recommended to also watch the video I referenced on the channel Chill Goblin.
I boil the point down to the two principles I try to live by and I argue are everything anyone should need to learn in order to be a decent person.
1) Don't be a fucking asshole.
2) Be nice to each other, goddammit.
I say'em like that because being a pottymouth doesn't autoqualify someone as an asshole. However you want to say it, no one would find those to be poor standards of personal conduct...
unless they're an asshole.
I've only just started the video but I LOVE the way you're presenting the topic.
I wonder if these edgy comics would keep there "As long as you make me laugh, I'm not offended" stance if the person they were watching was stealing jokes and performing them as well or better than the original.
There's nothing inherently wrong about performing someone else's work, singers do it all the time. But there's an unwritten rule about not taking another comic's joke, just like there's an unwritten rule about not punching down.
Wow. I actually thought Louis C.K.'s "there" joke was pretty okay until the mother's genitals part. It could easily enough be interpreted as critical of the "attack helicopter" people. Sometimes the hardest part of telling a joke is just knowing when to let it drop, I suppose.
Bummer that the 'rules' of comedy weren't actually a part of this, but am now having relatively deep thoughts on US vs UK comedy. I feel like there is a lot of American context missing here. Which, to be fair, I feel most Americans are unaware of as well, due to the 'rules' being necessarily unspoken. Most importantly though, is my opinion on the toilet joke and how it immediately turned me into a comedic realist, because it is, was, and always will be objectively unfunny. I could talk about this stuff for days and am shutting it up now, sorry yall!
I also feel some aspect can be that you have to be aware of your audience. There are absolutely jokes that I have among my friends that I wouldn't say in front of strangers. It's not because I think they're bigoted or something, it's that they're sex jokes that me and my friends have nominally cleared as okay amongst each other (a lot of it has to do with the various off screen sexual escapades of DnD characters and queer ship fics). And there are elements of this in the cases of "leaked group chats" that I can have some mild sympathy for, when a joke has been FORCED from one audience to another. But it is a very SLIM sympathy.
And the concept of "when a joke leaves your Twitter orbit" comes to mind, where you have a community that understands the implicit elements of a joke, and everyone is having good natured fun. But then it breaks containment and moves into groups who don't have the 3 layers of wider context that is needed to get the joke. Like bringing up SuperWhoLock at your tailgate party.
But even this has to be balanced with "Well, Twitter is visible by everyone". I'm not gonna give a racist joke a pass because he didn't MEAN for his joke to leave his little circle jerk of nazis. But a trans woman making a T4T joke that a ton of cis people cannot comprehend I don't think should be a problem the trans woman has to "manage".
Greatly enjoyed this video, but I also have SO MANY THOUGHTS on this subject. Gonna stop know before I write a whole novel.