Primitive Carbon Fiber Technologies | DarkAero Shop Vlog | July 27, 2021
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- Опубліковано 26 лип 2021
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In this Shop Vlog we cover some of the details of adding carbon fiber stiffening reinforcements to the wing skins above the flap. This involved using a wet layup and vacuum bagging process to apply additional plies of carbon fiber to the underside of the top wing skin. Other projects highlighted in the Vlog include fuel system lines routing and fuel system hardware, as well as wiring the engine systems.
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These videos could easily be 1 hour long and I'd still watch em
The longer the better, I'm trying to make something like this!
Just a thought, but have you considered back lighting the fuel sight tubes for easy checking at night in flight or on the ground. Plus backlighting with LED's will look cool as hell, like the rest of the plane. Great job on everything. I also agree with the other commenter who said he would watch 1hr episodes. 10-15min is a tease! Lol
Agreed, 1 hour would be great.
I'd like to see the 3 hour James Cameron version :)
Considering how much work it takes to put together these episodes, I'm thankful to see anything. Let's remember, these guys aren't UA-camrs, they're trying to complete a project.
It's a kit, so adding something like backlighting would be a relatively easy modification to make during the build process. Right now they're just trying to get this thing off the ground. Every little feature like that adds delays, especially given that their wiring harness is already done.
Experimental/Amateur Built Aircraft are Certified under that E/AB standard, which means the end customer is the official manufacturer of their own aircraft. He/She can do whatever they want, so long as it passes several basic inspections for structure, build quality, and basic mechanical standards. So anything cosmetic or "experimental" in nature is generally allowed (In the USA) - Europe wants engineering documentation on nearly everything. (In spite of the fact its you the pilot who's life hangs on the build quality and engineering).
So, buy a kit yourself, and plan how it will be customized.
It was so great meeting you guys at EAA today!! Thanks for stopping to talk to us!
This is far better than my 2 hr lab in college!
I like the design contrast between Dark Aero and Mike Patey’s Scrappy aircraft. One off Bespoke vs design for production. Would be very interesting if you and Patey could do a podcast to discuss what would be different if the end goal was reversed for each. If you did not have manufacturing and price point constraints what would you do different?
That would be a great video to see.
If you flipped them you would have a carbon cub and Mikes turboprop race plane.
I think if the two parties sat down together only a handful of people could understand that lingo.
I'm watching both projects evolve (well...one now, since Mike Patey is at Oshkosh with his plane). Both are very clean builds. Both paying excruciating attention to detail. Mike Patey could never "produce" his plane, tho, because he throws mad money at it. Billet machined ribs?!?!?!
@@paulslevinsky580 The machining tolerances alone would sink it. They are only possible for him because he is using all of his own equipment and is intimately familiar with say x deflection on endmill F at 58mm in material Z at rpm Y. Allowing him to produce parts with less than 100 thousandths variance. The same process makes F1 pistons cost 50 to 70k a piece with that tolerance level. The only thing that makes both look like a dowel jammed in a hole is the gear machining for ballistic submarines to make them run silent at something like +- 0.00001 or unobtanium for both the machine and the material lol
@@curvs4me One hundred thousands? 0.100” is that what you meant? Any modern machining center can easily do that.
Really enjoy watching the progress you guys are making.
Very cool, can't wait for the next video!
Top Notch work as usual guys! That's one good looking airplane!
Nice to see the Dark Aero in its natural state - inverted.
Great content. 👍
You guys are making great progress!
Hoping to see Dark Aero at Oshkosh next year. 😉
FAN FREAKING TASTIC!!! Love it!
Nice work. Always very interesting and informative. Thank you.
Love what you guys are doing and the level of perfection your aiming for. Keep up the good work and I’ll keep saving $$$ so maybe one day I’ll be able to afford on of these 🤞🏼
Another very informative video. Good job guys.
Thanks, I enjoy watching.
I don't even have a pilot license, but want to get one JUST to buy, build and fly the DarkAero. It's such a sexy machine. Seriously jealous of anyone who already has a reservation. This is the kind of stuff (both engineering and end product) that any gearhead loves.
I'll be building a Factory Five replica with my son, just to enjoy the process and this would be SOO much better.
Looking forward to all of your future videos and can't wait for flight testing!!
I am concerned that with the fuel vent arrangement with it have the two circular small vents that it could easily lead to contamination. Simply put, I could see Mud Wasps and other insects making it a new home. And as one other commenter discussed it also seems that full tanks and a non leveled parking surface could lead to fuel leaking?
However, as an airline pilot and mechanical engineer I find your project absolutely incredible and I can't wait to see it fly. You guys have done a great job!
More excellent progress to all you guys. River has the hardest assignment…
It's nice to see proper bagging techniques!
Just as a matter of interest what do you consider to be improper bagging techniques?
Those Hilton keys lol!!!! You just inspired me to keep my keys whenever I travel!
beautiful content. no sponsored bs as before. keep it up! good progress!
Fine work, gents.
Great update!
Love seeing the progress, also enjoy hearing some of the details of your technical design (your choices and reasoning). After this pathfinder/prototype is completed, how long do you estimate it will take to produce a complete kit? Thank you guys
@ 8:00, I hope your two fuel tank vent lines have some sort of screen or something blocking critters from crawling up in their and blocking the lines.
Excellent point
I'm surprised some sort of evap control system couldn't be worked in, but maybe that's too much weight and just not required on an experimental aircraft. I wonder if water can ingress that way.
Great job! Hope to see you flying soon!
Can you please make a video on how you make the reinforcements for the hard points? Like the wing connection, engine mount fitting, surface control hinges and horns, and so on? Composite doesn't stand concentrated load, so it would be great to see the solutions you guys used. Thanks in advance!
In general I believe they add a couple of extra layers of carbon cloth in those areas and have a metal bracket bonded to the composite structure.
You need to add another line to the fuel sight gauge, put red LED's behind it, and shape it like a flux capacitor.
Are you at Oshkosh this year ( 2021 )? You have probably stated this but I have missed the last few videos/updates.
Great work guys ... I am loving it and learning a lot.
What an amazing job! Congratulations. When do you expect to be ready for the maiden flight?
Are you guys planning to put on static wicks? If so, how are you attaching them, where, and how are you ensuring all panels have continuity?
Been watching this channel forever you gonna fly it sometime
I think it's taking longer due to resources, and they are designing a production process in conjunction with the prototype.
@@TheOneOriginalJackal yea I see this being a 1 off plane never being produced. Almost bet my life on that
These videos could be 24hrs and i'd still watch them.
We do have a (time lapse) 24 hour video! ua-cam.com/video/UrzZivlIt_k/v-deo.html
Man can’t wait to build me
Own !!
Is there a projected date to have this prototype flying? Great work!
Fair question! We're pushing to get it up into the air before year end. Our big focus right now is getting it up on the gear and getting all the systems (fuel, electrical) hooked up so we can get the engine fired up. Not covered in this video, but there is a lot of work going on for the main gear work. We should have more on main gear soon!
@@DarkAeroInc Thank you for taking the time to respond. Looking forward to the completion!
@@DarkAeroInc Looks like a great build. A small question on construction detail. When dealing with glues and compound ( esp composite)
should you be working in a clean room and other systems. Yeah I know hangers get the extremes of climate. ☮️ ☯️ & fly high & inverted.
Well placed rumors have it you're it's first flight is scheduled for Tuesday....
@@markrooney6406 composites are quite forgiving and clean rooms are not required. As long as you clean and properly prepare the forms, it’s all good. The biggest thing with composites is the temperature of the environment while layup and curing. Resins vary as to their temperature requirements, but generally the warmer the temperature, the faster it sets. That can be manipulated to give yourself a longer or shorter work time with the mixed resin. Cooler temperatures give you some breathing room for the resin to set. Some composites also can benefit from post curing where the finished pieces are put in an heated area, be it an oven or properly set up room to essentially bake it after.
Love for it to be ready for the next Oshkosh.
I have Glasair so this interests me greatly. Carbon-air. ;)
Gentlemen, NICE WORK!!!
A concern about the surface mounted fuel vent lines. In icing conditions water drifting back along the bottom surface of the wing will try to push its way up into the fuel vent tubes (the bottom surface of the wing is a positive pressure area plus as the fuel inside the tank is consumed that volume will be pulled from the surface mounted vents) so water will try to move up through the vent and freeze and this might prove problematic.
G,day Dark Arrow team from (Quarantine house lockdown) Sydney Australia.
* Really like the main plane (wing) in one piece, reducing the fatigue stress at fuselage connection.
* I've used vacuum sealing with soft polyethylene foam.
Stay safe from (covid-19)
🌏🇦🇺
Awesome layup in situ. Does it matter that the vent ports are at a low pressure area of the airfoil? That is, will that exit point bring fuel cell pressure below ambient?
Guys love your content and knowledge. I have a question, how long to learn well Onshape?
Do you have a video showing how you attach the flap hinges to the wing? How is metal isolated from the carbon fiber? Isn't there risk of corrosion with metal to carbon fiber contact? Thank you.
Looking forward to seeing DarkAero take to the sky. Good Luck and God Bless.
Yes! We have a video on galvanic corrosion here: ua-cam.com/video/yRpMZaU8zKw/v-deo.html
With the back up fuel pump. Is there a system in place to alternately utilize each pump regularly? This would avoid any failures due to lack of use with safety redundancies. It could be left to the user, but just curious.
Love the project! You got this! 🤙🏼
Hi Guys, is there any chance you could do a video on the process you use for layup selection during the design phase? Within the homebuilding world there appears to be a more primitive school of thought for amateur designs that is basically 'design the spar for the anticipated load and then guess at the skins and if it sandbag tests OK then you're good' and then at the other end of the spectrum the professionals use some very complex equations to mathematically test a proposed layup schedule for an element of a structure such as a wing skin, which is incredibly unwieldy and challenging to do for the home aircraft designer.
It would be great if you could provide a little guidance on how you guys arrived at what is clearly a very light and strong structure with a focus on how you arrived at the layups you used.
Thanks and please keep the great videos coming. You guys are a real inspiration to homebuilders like me.
Its nice to see the Brother scenario, you have built in redundancy/Brainstorming power by multiple people.
Are you guys going to Oshkosh?
Great video guys. I missed Ryley why you need to install that foam on the underside of the top surface of the trailing edge?
Hi David! This was to stiffen up the wing skin in the area above the flap. In the initial design, we planned on using some honeycomb panel ribs in the area but we ultimately concluded using a foam core was a better solution. It’s a nonstructural area so there isn’t a well defined requirement on the stiffness but it does need to handle basic loads from people pushing on the area. It was a “to do” item that we finally got to.
Should there be a check valve at the outlet of the fuel pumps to prevent them from losing pressure through the unused pump?
more comments! more attention to dark project! up&up
looks like 6lbs per cubic foot polyurethane expanding foam. totalboat has one supporting 400 psi per square inch compression strength
I'm curious what type of pressure gauge you are using for fuel level. Is it an absolute pressure gauge with altitude compensation internal to the avionics or is it a differential pressure gauge with two ports? At different altitudes you would obviously obtain huge differences in readings (~15 psi at SL, vs ~8 psi at 18,000'). That being said, I know people are talking about your venting, but how did you design your venting system with fuel level measurement (due to pressure differences at different AS, AOA, anything aerodynamically different, etc.)? That could be another source of fuel level error depending on where you put your vent ports (ie, in a low pressure area or maybe high pressure area).
If a fuel pump fails how do you keep the other one from back feeding through the bad pump?
Can i ask what type of foam did you use as core?
Missing you at Oshkosh!
Hey Harlan, we are attending as a team, but we are not bringing the prototype DarkAero 1 to the airshow. It was a tough decision, but our goal was to redirect the time and effort that would otherwise be put into an AirVenture booth into just bringing the project closer to completion.
Great job, I admire your work sir and I wish you have a discord channel I have so many questions to ask 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Do you have to worry about the skin of the aircraft building up static charge? (since this is carbon fibre)
Does this mean you're not at Oshkosh this year? Or you just had a video ready to drop before you left?
Have you guys considered switching to an electric plane? Might be something to look at in the future.
Flap cove reinforcement? Did you find unwanted flappery on that overhang or was it just too light a structure?
Nice work! Curious about the venting. It looks like the tubes exit the tip end of the tank and turn 90 to exit the bottom wing skin. There must be more to it otherwise, fuel would dump out at a wing low condition.
Good question! Not mentioned in the video, but each vent tube has a little gravity check valve that closes off in a low wing condition to prevent fuel from dumping overboard. Air can go in but fuel can’t go out.
@@DarkAeroInc Overly complicated adding more components and more points of failure. Why not vent the top tip of the wing back to the wing root, then an up and over loop to prevent fuel venting in an uncoordinated turn or slip! K.I.S.S principle is always best! Also, using pressure sensors on fuel level is not very accurate (had endless issues on a Europa aircraft with this system. Changed it for a tub-in-tube capacitance system and has worked flawlessly for 20 years now.
@@DarkAeroInc Failure mode on that check valve?
@@davidwhite2011 Though ball checks are reliable in fully wet systems, I would be concerned that over years, dust from dirty air, could cause the check to stick. Looks like they had two per tank for redundancy. As long as DarkAero didn't make the checks inaccessible, simply add it to the annual inspection list. It's not expensive and not complicated to change if/when the time comes. There are a ton of things that need to be maintained on any airplane This is a very small thing.
Can you describe how your sight gauge works. Is it not going to be higher then the wing tanks?
Is it "primitive" because it's the way cavemen would layup carbon fiber?
Thanks for another interesting video.
This plane will be a success! It will fly soon and take oshkosh 2022 by storm! UL has introduced a turbo version of that engine. Go high go fast!
So the fuel tanks extend to the wing tip?
What foam are you using please? Make, quality, weight?
Cool ! : D
No header fuel tank? Nice header 1 or 2 gal tank that can also fit your fuel pumps for easy access would be nice. Looking good guys :)
What is the internal diameter of your fuel lines?
Hold up how did you crimp your pins for your harness.
Why haven't you CNC'd an RC demo??? (joking...but also not.ha!)
Just thinking of the detail manufacturers can get, you guys may have tried that in some cold WI evening and planning....
Very cool! Look forward to seeing it at OSH next year!
Will the dark aero be able to fly upside-down?
Are internal cockpit dimensions available? Could a stout 6'4" person fit in it? Cheers.
Do the fuel vent lines have check-valves or something else to prevent fuel from escaping? I wondering if fuel will be flow (leak) out of the vent lines if you're in a steep banking turn where the fuel level covers the vent exit holes.
Never mind! ....found the answer in another comment: gravity check valve
I know this is very late to comment, but I only just found this video. I saw a different video on composite hand layup over a pattern shaped from EPS foam, and the presenter made a comment that it could not be vacuum bagged because "even at low levels of vacuum the foam will collapse slightly, leading to distortion." What type of foam was used so that was not a problem on the flap core?
The Flying Pancake ;)
so do you have to redo the wing loading test? thanks!
This won’t warrant retesting the wing. The portion of wing skin above the flap isn’t acting as primary load bearing structure to carry bending loads in the wing. It’s more of a fairing over the flap that is along for the ride. We added structure to increase its stiffness.
Why is there fuel-tank all the way to the wing tips, shouldn't weight be close to the body?
Ayyyy
Am here coz of zack from jerry rig everything
Hey guys, been watching your progress and I have a question about the kits.
Will the builder have to do any carbon fibre work? Any moulding or ANYTHING?
One of the things that puts me off RV’s is all that time prepping the metal.
I’d like to buy an aircraft and pretty much start building and installing straight away.
Hey! Thanks for following along. The bulk of the composites work is completed by DarkAero (anything that requires special alignment or fixturing). There won’t be a need to mix resins or wet out cloth. There are several areas that require reinforcement strips added but these parts are pre-molded.
I noticed you have the aluminum piano hinge riveted into the wing skin. Is there any concern for galvanic corrosion there?
Josh, good question! The piano hinges are anodized and are separated from the carbon with thin adhesive layer. The rivets used are stainless which have a similar galvanic potential to carbon. These hinges are in an area that can be inspected visually so we will continue to monitor how they are behaving together.
*WHAT, ME WORRY -- NO, I JUST USE SLURRY -- LOVING THE TRACTION FROM COMPACTION*
2 pumps in parallel for redundancy but no check valves on their discharge?
One would think that'd be a good idea incase an internal check valve failed in the pump. It'd be nice to monitor their temps too.
Is there any estimates on what the finished kit will cost?
Hi Shane! We keep the most current information about the kit on our website. Check out www.DarkAero.com/aircraft
You terminated into a connector without the backshell or strain relief on?
Each wire is installed with a service loop to provide strain relief, and the whole assembly will be enclosed by a heat shrink boot later.
@@DarkAeroInc what about sleeving for the wires? Last shrink boots I used had to be on the wires before terminated into a D38999.
Since we may want to make changes to the wiring and we have an interest in keeping the weight down, we didn't want to add shrink tubing throughout. The shrink boot will still serve the purpose of providing strain relief here by limiting the bend angle of the connector along with protecting the service looped wires.
@@DarkAeroInc if your using all these MIL Spec parts are you following MIL-508088 ? If not I’d move to commercial parts. They would be lighter and cheaper. Very few, if any, MIL parts are meant to be light, when the application calls for it to be lighter they just make it out of Ti.
Primitive maybe but well done 👍
What if the fuel vent holes allows water inside the tank?
Maybe some humidity goes in but because the vent is leaking under the wing and fuel evaporate I think there is no issues
The wing is inverted as shown. The fuel vent openings are on the bottom of the wing so the only water that could get into the tank would be from humidity / condensation. Water is more dense than fuel so it will settle to the lowest point in the fuel system at the very bottom of the sump where it can be drained from a sample port during pre flight inspection. Checking the sumps for water or other fuel contaminants is a standard part of pre flight checks on all light aircraft.
how's the landing gear?
John, it's good! Nose gear is complete aside from some small sensor tweaks. We've moved on to the main gear work now. :)
I hope those are not CAT.5/7 cables.
"I was inverted"
Guys please hire me in a mechatronics engineer willing to work pennies on the dollar just to be a part of this !
By not using readily available fuel pump modules you are adding cost and hard to source replacement parts as they become custom installation just to save a few millimeters? I understand you are space limited but your just adding unnecessary complexity. There are many ways to do this.
This whole airplane is custom and cost is secondary to weight. This isn't for everyone... it's the supercar of airplane kits.
With the caveat of what the hell do I know: I'm concerned about having fuel in the cockpit. In the event of an off-field landing, the last thing you want is fuel on the clothes of the pilot and passenger, and you really don't want fuel in the cockpit at all. Maybe you've thought of this and mitigated the risk somehow. Let me know.
Faster
With very little dihedral, you will be dumping fuel when the tank is full and/or the aircraft is sitting ( even slightly) on uneven ground. Even at 3/4 full , there may still be a problem when taxiing over uneven ground or in slightly uncoordinated turns. Having been involved with Glasair for years, and watching the evolution of their vent systems, I admonish you to skip their learning curve. Go right to something similar to their ultimate solution, the Fuel Vent Float Valve . A quick web search will get you there. Save your self alot of headaches. Great build, can't wait until the DarkAero is flying.
That’s a fair concern but we did account for those types of edges cases in the design. The vent port into the tank is located at the highest elevation in the tank at the wing tip. This point remains the highest location in the tank so long as the slope of the ground does not exceed the dihedral angle of 3.5 degrees. That would be pretty uneven ground at a paved airport. If the slope exceeds the dihedral angle or the airplane is banked in an uncoordinated turn to where fuel can reach the vent lines, a check valve on each line prevents fuel from spilling overboard. Apologies for not clarifying more in the video! Thank you for following along!
@@DarkAeroInc please make sure the checks can be inspected and serviced.
Can I be a fourth Karl brother? 👱🏻♂️👱🏻♂️👱🏻♂️🧔🏽♂️
Primitive lol :)
So board of this... Finish and video pls every time it's look at what we did....BUT we will finish later and not show you shit... Mount the engine pls do it.... Make the flaps pls do it... My guess is test flight we will see run up taxi and then hanger
Plane is looking good. It would look better if you guys have a female aircraft trainee. I bet your subs would go up
When are these guys actually going to produce something. Just a whole load of waffle, theory and displays of knowledge but never a working prototype let alone a product. Year after year
So, Elliott, what kind of progress have you made with your new to the world project? Inquiring minds want to know!
You guys are doing a lot right but you lost me as a potential customer. Maybe I'm just a traditionalist but I don't care for your engine/prop combination choice or your landing gear. I want oleo struts all around and your nose gear is WAY too complicated with multiple failure points. Then again, I'm just an old aerospace engineer with 40+ years of experience. Maybe I don't know much. Regardless, I wish you all the best.
There’s a right way and a wrong way to make this comment. You chose the wrong way… :(
@@cjl76 How so?
@@johnc6919 Fanboys? Is that a euphemism? I'm not sure. As I said, I'm an old fart. I actually speak and write in English to avoid misunderstandings.
I think this plane will be kinda hot to land for the average guy.I also think the landing gear will cause these guys a lot of headaches.