Predestination: Do we have a choice? | Ep 132
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Does God choose us as believers? What about free will?
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Love the video. Just my 2 cents though. Foreknowledge and pre destiny are not the same thing. God can have all knowledge and all power and still have the restraint to allow us to make decisions. Allowing others to have a choice does not show that God lacks power. I believe that just shows His power.
Totally agree! And more importantly, the Bible shows this.
I think its both. God knows the choices we are going to make and confirms it.
for example in exodus is says both Pharaoh hardened his own heart and God hardens pharaohs heart.
We make the choice but God uses those who he knows their heart and the choices they will make even millennia before they are born.
Matt Miller this is exactly right. God creates the system of free will that we are bound by and he acts within the boundary he created. First level predestination is way different than second level predestination...
My youth pastor teaches that God is sovereign and all powerful and that he carries out his will through our free choices
Humans make choices all the time. But the reason they make their choices is because first God himself determined all the choices that would ever be made. So yes, we effectively are playing out a simulation that was all pre-programmed.
The issue is repeatedly framed inaccurately by Allie. The issue is not whether "predestination" is biblical, but is it Calvinistic (as she believes it to be). In other words, it's not, "Does the Bible teach predestination?," but rather, "Is the Biblical teaching of predestination the same as what Calvinists believe it to be?" Of course the Bible teaches that God predestines certain things--the word is used, after all--but it never teaches that God unconditionally predestines certain individuals to faith and others to be left unchangeably to being lost. So, Allie just frames the questions at the beginning as a matters of "predestination," but does not make it clear that Calvinists understand "predestination" as something different than non-Calvinists.
Best comment I've read in a long time regarding this subject. Seriously. Thank you my friend.
This. Allie is usually so good. But is soooooo bad on the subject of reformed theology.
God loved us since before the foundation of the world. And he loved us, not by works done by us in righteousness, but because of his own mercy and grace. If God loved us before we were ever born, before we ever had thoughts or desires, or made any decisions or acted in this world, then that means that his love is unconditional.
@@nerychristian Yes. But his salvation is not. It is through faith. That makes it conditional.
@@nerychristian Sure. But Calvinists assume He does that irresistibly. They assume we cannot choose to keep them closed.
What's the theme of Romans chapter 9 - that God has favorites based on His sovereign selection? No, that's Calvinism! Fact is God doesn't pick some to be lost and some to be saved. That's a misunderstanding of Paul's writings. Then how do we approach Romans chapter 9?
Well, there are some key verses that run though the whole chapter. Let's look at those and then try to understand Paul's point:
Verse 11: "not of works but of Him who calls"
Verses 15,16: "I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."
Verses 30-32: "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law."
What's Paul's point? God will not have mercy on the Jew or Gentile who insists that God must must allow him into heaven based on his performance. That's all Paul is saying.
Now go To Eph 1:7,10,11 "In Him (in Christ) we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace...In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been PREDESTINED according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will..."
What's Paul saying? That "in Christ" God has predestined "all men". In Him we have redemption based on His mercy - not based on men's works.
That's why Paul states the following in Gal 1:6 "If we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed..."
There's only one way into heaven and that is faith "in Christ". Any other way God will not accept!!! Therefore God will have mercy on the person who puts His faith in Christ's performance, but He will not have mercy on the one who expects a reward based on or in his law performance.
Well said sister!!!! We are not worthy and only Jesus grace
No we don't but God so loved THE WORLD (not the elect) that He gave His only begotten son that WHOSOEVER shall believe in Him shall not perish (be damned to hell) but have everlasting life. Jn 3-16
At 24:24 I'd like to put my spin on it. Thinking of it this way has helped me to somewhat better 'comprehend', God predestining folks by remembering two things:
1. When God destroyed the world the first time by water, only Noah and his family were saved. Meaning the rest of the people on earth were killed and presumably ended up in Hell.
Meaning that God in that case saved very few and the rest were condemned.
2. Hell IS the default position. It's what Allie was referencing at 24:24... We are ALL destined for Hell, every single one of us. What God is doing when he saves people or predestines them to be saved is because of his love and mercy and kindness and compassion. He is saving certain people - those He has chosen - from that default position of Hell. He could let everyone on the planet of all time and up in Hell, but he doesn't; over the centuries he has rescued
- saved many - from the default position of Hell.
Oh and lastly I've heard from other very good preachers who have said that it's only really in places like the United States, (and perhaps Canada and Great Britian) that people are so worried about predestination not being fair; apparently most other folks in other parts of the world aren't bothered by the 'fairness - or unfairness issue' of predestination
I hope my way of looking at it might give others another angle to consider it from.
Great vid Allie, Thanks!
Yes we have a choice!
- the answer towards the why as to evangelizing : 'faith (comes by) hearing and (hearing by) the word the God'
Allie Beth, still did not square the circle that Ben Shapiro asked you about. Just talked in circles again.
??
Just read the scriputres that she did, its all there.
Very good explanation of predestination from the word of God. I agree, the word of God needs to be used to explain questions that arise in the reading of any passage. It does, and there is no contradictions in the bible. What you said in your summary is the answer to the age old question, What is the meaning of life? We are to glorify God!
Allie, with all respect, you just read a few verses on predestination and on people being chosen and then jumped to individual predestination to salvation. Scholars and christians who dont believe in that know of those verses. They dont dismiss them. I recommend you check out their explanation to see who's is better. This is a very one sided viewpoint.
2 Timothy 1:9
He has saved us and called us to a holy life-not because of anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.
Grace was given to individuals before the beginning of time. The "us" and "we" that are used in this verse are personal pronouns.
UA-cam hasn't banned you is a BLESSING of IT'S own....
Ill admit I got lost here. Do you believe in both? I agree with another comment that God be all knowing doesn’t equal predestination. My second question: when Christ became literal sin on the cross, did he only become sin for the ones He already picked? The premise of predestination makes evangelizing that much harder once the unbeliever finds out that they may have not been chosen. I agree with everything else I’ve listened of yours Allie, but this hurts my heart a bit.
Parable Of The Wedding Feast - (EMTV)
Mat 22:8 Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding indeed is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.
Mat 22:9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.'
Mat 22:10 "So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
Mat 22:11 But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there not dressed with wedding clothes.
Mat 22:12 So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here not having wedding clothes?' And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, 'Tie him up hands and feet, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Jesus's death was a definite atonement, His death secured salvation for His people. john 10:11; eph 5:25; rev 5:9; mark 10:45; john 11:52.
I used to feel as you do till I realized some things, first we all deserve Hell, the question is why does God save anyone? Mercy is a gift He freely gives the sinner, not for anything we have done or will do, but because He choses to. The unrepentent sinner will not be in hell wondering why. If God is sovereign He must be sovereign in all things or He is not God.
We know there is not universal salvation, so that leaves the question did Jesus die for a guaranted group of people? or did He secure salvation for no one? I believe scripture concludes that Jesus died for His people.
We still.share the gospel with everyone since scripture says too and we do not know who the elect are. All that come to Jesus will find a perfect savior.
All that I know Is that I asked Jesus to save my soul by His sacrifice on Calvary and His resurrection. No one had better tell me that I may still go to hell despite that.
ua-cam.com/video/S4OSc16ckIM/v-deo.html
The two biggest problems I see in Scripture with everything falling under the God's will umbrella. In Genesis 6 it says that God "felt sorry" He had made man. I would say He knew things would go bad which is why He designated Jesus as Savior from before the beginning. But knowing things would go bad and knowing just exactly HOW bad seem to be at odds. We also see in God's judgment of other nations and Israel too that the way they sacrificed their children and the evils they were committing "didn't even enter His mind to be done."
I like how Alisa Childers answered the problem of suffering and it bears repeating here. God knew all the possible universes and how things might go before He made this one. Everything was established in wisdom. So this world and all its pitfalls, God has decided is the best possible world that can exist under the curse and under the terms He has ordained. We can take comfort in that, that even though this world seems so paradoxical in so many ways, that everything is still going to worked out and redeemed for good.
I personally believe that God is all knowing and because of that he knows who will be saved and who won’t be, but he gives us the free will and the opportunity to choose him. I believe that when we choose not to follow God and accept Jesus as our savior, we go to hell. I believe that we are the ones that decide if we go to hell or not. There are verses like John 3:16, Romans 1:15, 1 Peter 3:9, John 6:40 (and probably others) that say that salvation is given to everyone who believes, and that God wants everyone to believe in him and have eternal life. God gives us the opportunity to be saved and to become a child of God and inherit his kingdom. God predestined everyone to be saved, he wants everyone to be saved, but it’s up to us what to do with that invitation. A 21st century analogy that I came up with is that God is sending a friend request to everyone, but they have to choose to accept that friend request or not. It is God moving in our hearts that compels us to choose him and to choose to be saved. Salvation is a choice that God gives to us. He isn’t wishing of anyone to perish but for everyone to have eternal life. It would not be fair for God to only pick a select few to be saved and then send the rest to hell. That is not how it works. We choose to send ourselves to hell by not trusting in Jesus alone.
not fair? do we really want whats fair? if so, heaven will be empty as we sll deserve hell.
Salvation is a gift from God, He gets to choose who He gives it to. He does not send anyone to hell .
He saves some and passes over others. No one will be in hell wondering why.
salvation is all God.
soli deo gloria^
17:07 Yes, God could stop anything, _and_ do so _any way He choses_
God's omnipotence in face of your choice may be less of His decreeing it, and more of His allowing it. Being able to stop it and chosing not to.
No Calvinist believes that just because we're predestined that there is no order of salvation or reason to commit to God and be saved if you will. Look up the "Ordo Salutus". Jesus talks about this in John in the parable of the sown seeds. It shows the various circumstances of with the seeds are sown but ultimately only one makes it fruition and that is by the grace of God. Just because we have been predestined doesn't mean that there isn't a moment in our life that we come to our salvation and commit to Christ. That's how we have a testimony and share with others. We don't know who is saved and who is not. That is completely for God to change hearts and lives. It is completely his will.
A distinction must be made between the terms predestination and election. They are not the same and should not be used interchangeably.
Regarding Predestination three questions need to be asked when reading the text.
Who is being predestined?
To What are they being predestined?
How does scripture specifically define that destination?
In Ephesians 1 who are those being described as being predestined? Saints or sinners?
Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus
Paul is speaking to saints.
To what were the Saints predestined?
Ephesians 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.
Predestined Saints to adoption.
What is the adoption?
Romans 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
The adoption is the redemption of the body. It is a future event that we are currently waiting, which will happen when Christ returns.
A distinction about adoption needs to be made at this point. There is a spiritual adoption and a physical adoption the bible makes clear.
We are sealed with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of adoption once we are born again.
Romans 8:15-17 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs-heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
And Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Repentant believers who trust in Jesus Christ life, death, burial, and resurrection are sealed with the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of adoption. However, the adoption will not be physically manifested until there is the redemption of the body which will happen at the second coming of Christ. It is all by grace through faith and all by the finished work of Christ.
So far there has been no reference to an unsaved person being predestined to hell. But who are those that God foreknew?
Galatians 4:8-9 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?
One does not become known by God until after they are born again. Paul is speaking to born again Christians in Galatians.
Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified
We are known by God once we are born again. In the context of Galatians it begins once a person is born again. It's at the point of the new birth a believer becomes predestined to be heirs with Christ. Notice the past tense in Romans 8:29-30. Are we currently glorified? No. However, in God's foreknowledge once we are born again, we are glorified. He is infinite and omnipresent so to Him, we, born again believers, are already glorified with Jesus Christ, it just hasn't manifested physically and won't until Christ returns.
Again. In the context of Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 predestination is referencing born again believers from the point of repentance/salvation/spirit adoption to the coming of Christ/our physical adoption.
No where in the context of scripture does it reference some people being predestined for heaven and some people being predestined for hell.
That must be your presupposition when reading the text which is eisogesis and not wise to use.
Clear exegesis of scripture shows Adoption, Redemption of the body, conformed to Christ's image, and glorification are all things followers of Jesus Christ are predestined to partake in, Once they are born again and predestined from the point of the new birth till the second coming of Christ.
Very good! Rightly dividing the word.
@@ItsGabieLikeBaby Thank you. God bless you richly.
22:54 Most of what you said last few minutes is correct, however the Bible doesn't say God's grace is irresistible, and it would be clumsy of God to be able to ordain our salvation _only_ by exchanging one unfreedom for another.
Also, "divine tension" - it's a tension for our understanding, but not for God.
I think we have missed a very important verse here... John 3:17.... Jesus did not come to condemn the world. If He chooses those whom he will merifully give faith but not others, then He is condeming those who He chooses not to give faith to accept Christ.
"Maybe God isn't omnipotent. Maybe he's just been around so long, he knows everything."
- Phil Connors
In the end I still don't agree with predestination and Calvinism but I cant agree with you on what's really important, sharing the gospel.
The sovereignty of God has been mightily misunderstood and misused by many in and out of the church. Yes He IS sovereign, BUT He gave mankind dominion over the earth, He gave us the choice, OUR choices invite the devil to kill steal and destroy, if my loved one gets tragically killed, and someone says it must have been God’s will, they gonna hear a word from me. The Father is a GOOD father, he does not make people sick, poor, YES he is aware of everything, does NOT mean it was his will for horrible things to happen…but IN that he can work with us and draw us to him, and carry us through, that DOES NOT mean he made it happen. What would be the point of Him “blessing” us with illness only to turn around and heal them all as Jesus did. It is HIS will that all should be saved, but clearly that is not the case, for if he executed his will at every turn in the life of humanity, we all WOULD be saved. If someone thinks God gave them sickness or some other tragedy to bring them closer to him, that it was his will, then don’t take any measures in the natural or else you will be going directly against his will if this is your honest opinion of the Father. Jesus said he ONLY said\did what the Father said or did, when did we ever see Jesus make someone sick? NO… He healed them ALL!!! And since God the Father gave US dominion, if he would now go back on that and micromanage our every turn, that would make him a liar and HE CAN NOT LIE. Sovereign = dominant power or supreme authority, yes that’s GOD, it’s NOT making everything happen that happens, that’s on us, We cannot blame God for bad things that happen to us or others, this is a fallen world, and the issue of sin is the cause of all the terrible things happening all around us. I have listened to the best series on the true nature of God, from someone who has spent the last 55 years of his life ( he’s now 74 ) living for the Lord, and has lead tens of thousands to saving Grace and salvation. I know this isn’t the main focus of this video, but when the sovereignty topic came up I just knew it would be the version that paints
God as one who controls us like pieces on a game board. And my final word, God being aware of everything, people, creatures, hairs on our heads, falling leaves, falling birds, does not mean He made that happen. If we put our trust in Jesus, and make him the lord of our life, and turning from sin in gratitude for his amazing grace( not to earn his favour, we can never do that, that’s why Jesus had to put on our robes of filth, and give us his robes of righteousness) he makes us accepted in the beloved, and that’s all I need to know. He is a Good, loving father, yes he is Just & Holy, but he is good and loving, and I’m so blessed and grateful to belong in his family.
This was a great summery thank you.
Allie read Roman about 10 times back to back because you are not understanding Romans. I know this is an old video I hope you have better understanding.
19:41 "Like hardening pharao's heart" - I think I recall Jonathan Sarfati using this to argue Calvinism.
But let's recall, the same pharao hardened his heart himself first, so God's harding His heart was not bereaving him of real choice, but just finalising the choice He had already allowed him to make.
15:03 One cannot deny freewill because God is all knowing.
I know you made this video, that doesn't mean I determined you should make it.
God eternally knew in advance you would make it. _Also_ doesn't mean He determined it beyond your having any choice.
15:43 God offering you a real choice doesn't mean God abandons being sovereign - it means He uses His sovereignty in a very fine tuned manner.
If God predestined everything, then how does the concept of sin even make sense? Sin implies that a person chose to do something wrong. If I drive my car into a tree, it would be nonsensical to say that my car has sinned by colliding with the tree.
The bible teaches both the sovereignty of God over all things, even sin. At the same time it teaches human accountability. Just because we cannot resolve this in our minds doesn't render it false. In the mind of God it makes perfect sense.
@@droneactive1223 Really? And you know this makes sense "in the mind of God" how exactly? Because John Piper says so? You are insulting God by attributing to him belief in a self-contradictory principle.
@@nealb1a John is a great bible teacher but he is imperfect, so everything he teaches must be tested against God's Word. We don't need to argue. You reject Calvinism on an intellectual basis. That's fine. I accept it (like many other Christians) because we see it in the words of Jesus. God bless you.
3:05 Molina says God has sth like "scientia media"
A) God certainly has the knowledge of all possibilities;
B) God also has the knowledge of all things He ultimately decrees;
B U T
C) God also has an omniscient knowledge of all conditionals.
I e, God eternally knows what so and so _will_ do _if_ He gives him sanctifying grace, and what He won't do in such a case - and therefore God makes His decree on account of this.
The biggest take ever is, no one becomes a calvanist by reading God's word themselves but more taught to see Calvinism in the text
Amen!! Loved!❤
Calvinist theologian James White, in a debate with Hank Hannegraaf and George Bryson, was asked, “When a child is raped, is God responsible and did He decree that rape?” To which Mr. White replied… “Yes, because if not then it’s meaningless and purposeless and though God knew it was going to happen he created it without a purpose… and God is responsible for the creation of despair… If He didn‟t [decree child rape] then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose.”[11]
the Bible never says hat God chooses one person for salvation , only that people are chosen for a purpose or task . also the predestination " that "calvinist " worship so much is really this. God has predestined from the beginning of time that those in Him (Christ) will be the ones set apart for Him and will receive the inheritance and those who are not will receive eternal darkness .
Mike Winger has a good, non-Calvinist study of Romans 8 on his channel.
@@GerardPerry that is very good , i watch ed it awhile ago
Parable Of The Wedding Feast (taught by GOD The SON)
(Mat 22:1-14 UST) Then Jesus told the Jewish leaders other parables. This is one of those parables.
(2) "God ruling from heaven is like a king who told his servants that they should make a wedding feast for his son.
(3) When the feast was ready, the king sent his servants to tell the people whom he had invited that it was time for them to come to the wedding feast. The servants went out and told the people. But the people who had been invited did not want to come.
(4) So the king sent other servants to again tell those people to come to the feast. He said to those servants, 'Say to the people whom I invited to come to the feast, "This is what the king says to you, 'I have prepared the meal. The oxen and the fattened calves have been butchered and cooked. Everything is ready. It is time now for you to come to the wedding feast!'"'
(5) But when the servants told them that, they disregarded what the servants said. Some of them went to their own fields. Others went to their places of business. (6) The rest of them seized the king's servants, mistreated them, and killed them.
(7) When the king heard what had happened, he became furious. He commanded his soldiers to go and kill those murderers and burn their city.
(8) After his soldiers had done that, the king said to his other servants, 'I have prepared the wedding feast, but the people who were invited do not deserve to come to it.
(9) So go to the intersections of the main roads. Tell whomever you find that they should come to the wedding feast.'
(10) So the servants went there, and they gathered everyone they could find. They gathered both bad people and good people. They brought them into the hall where the wedding feast was about to take place. The hall was filled with people.
(11) But when the king went into the hall to see the guests, he saw someone who was not wearing clothes that had been provided for the guests to wear at a wedding feast.
(12) The king said to him, 'Friend, you should never have entered this hall, because you are not wearing the clothes that guests wear at wedding feasts!' The man did not say anything, because he did not know what to say.
(13) Then the king said to his servants, 'Tie this person's feet and hands and throw him outside where there is total darkness, where people cry out and gnash their teeth because of the pain they are in.'"
(14) Then Jesus said, "The point of this parable is that God has invited many to come to him, but only a few people are the ones whom he has chosen to be there."
2 Timothy 1:9 begs to differ.
@@choicemeatrandy6572 sir if your given verse is to say that God chooses one person over another . you are incorrect .
ABS!! You GO, girl!
I do not believe God decides who will and who will not believe in Jesus. I believe predestination in scripture is talking about the rewards His children will receive.
If God picked certain people for heaven, then Jesus did not die for the whole world and there is no reason to spread the gospel, which is absolute heresy.
Elect, always refers to service. Elect NEVER refers to salvation.
Who is drawn unto Him? EVERYONE
King James Bible John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
So, we can be forgiven of our sins, because, as the Bible says, Jesus is faithful and just to forgive the sins of those who believe in him, but we can be sent to hell anyways if we weren't "elected"? So justified people will be in hell?
Good biblical stuff here.
Please pardon me for saying, that due to your speaking so very rapidly and pressured (with far too much content for in 30 mins), I felt less than engaged. Inquiry: So in other words, e.g., you believe in predestination of God's elect as going to Heaven and, at the same time, you don't know if you're one of His elect. Did I get that right? 🤔
I suspect you are a Calvinist which I do not mind in the least.
I think on an earlier video she said that she's a southern baptist.
@@jeromyperez5532 yeah Calvinist isn't a denomination
@@jeromyperez5532 Baptist historically are Calvinists. Today's baptist aren't actually baptist. All the historic baptist creeds and confessions are Calvinistic.
I mind Calvinism, but I don't mind Calvinists.
When God says renewing the mind, he really did not mean sacrificing the mind, now you all birds can not think, no worries though, the Devil will supply all your cares, sure
Appeal to mystery brings glory to God? 🤔
- in that of the offspring as to the woman - this is 'the true election' Allie (and it's not pertaining to buildings made by human hands)
Ok, seriously, NOBODY can answer this question, we can only guess. I believe that it's all God. Exodus illustrates how God basically controls Pharaoh's heart. The old testament is full of stories that illustrate how God controls circumstances and people to bring about His desires. Now, consider the concepts of Sovereignty and anthropomorphism. What would make ANY person think that they can question God? Remember what God basically told Job "When was the last time you made a universe buddy"? Could an ant question a human? The difference between us and God is even greater. God is righteous, just, loving, merciful...fair? Sorry, that's a human construct. We cannot possibly grasp the reasons for God's will. It's unreasonable to even assume that we can figure out what why He's doing what He's doing. We can't know or deduce everything. Just seek The Lord and accept by faith that you are chosen. Examine yourself carefully to make sure that your faith reflects this. Our works are evidence of our faith, which is tested that it might not be found to be disingenuous. Ultimately only The Lord can quantity and qualify our faith. Remember, James says faith without works is dead. There are obviously varying degrees of faith, not all of them leading to salvation.
You don't need to be a Calvinist to believe in Predestination as Paul clearly outlines in Romans 9 where he affirms GOD saying: "l will have Mercy on whom l have mercy", you need to take heed of what Abert Einstein said about socalled free will from a Scientific perspective.
Calvin was right. Arminians frequently cite 2 Peter 3:9 “not wishing that any should perish”.
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
- 2 Peter 3:9
Not wishing that any should perish…
Any what?
Peter is addressing his letters to who?
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
- 1 Peter 1:1+2
Not wishing that any (of God’s Elect) should perish…
God has never learned a single thing, nor will He, in all eternity.
Calvinism is a by-product of thinking too much. Avoid vain and useless controversies, speculations about genealogies and such. Those coming into Christianity from a Torah/Talmudic back ground may like to find a version of "chosen people" or predestined souls; some say Calvin had such a background. Talmud itself is the result of over-thinking and theorizing, and teachers of Hebrew during the "reformation" brought Jewish ideas into Christianity. Keep it simple.
There is only a paradox if calvinism and scripture is true. If only the scripture is true then there is no paradox...
So out of a million people, few people find the narrow road and are saved! One out of a million would be few!
And of a million people YOU, are one of the ones especially chosen for salvation and the 999,999, were not?
When did god notify you that he chose you?
How did god notify you that he chose you?
How are you sure that he did choose you?
Simple questions that should be easily answered!
Were any of you other family members also chosen? Remember one in a million means few!
So , were your children? Your grand children, your wife or husband? Remember few means few!
How many of your friends? How many in your church? One in a million in your church would
mean that you have taken the only seat.
Therefore no one else in your church can be chosen!
Do you see that when you start to think thoughts like this for your self you start to smell “LIE”
You smell the devil and his demon doctrines!
Wake up!
1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
Acts 2 :21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off-....
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Truth in love
If anyone is really interested in learning more about God, I highly recommend these teachers you can find on youtube.
Dr Flowers Soteriology 101
Dave Hunt "What love is this"
Mike Winger
David Pawson
Allie, you're obviously a thinker, and you seem to be a bright young lady, and I realize this video is 5 years old. HOWEVER, you're confating several different subtopics out of context, and to hopefully put this gently your own terms: I can't "get down" with the whole Calvinism thing, becuase it's profoundly flawed.
You should reject the calvanists presupposition and understanding of predestination because it makes God break his own law. It makes God the author of evil. It makes Christianity unbelievably arbitrary.
If God creates vessels of wrath who will be damned NOT on the basis of ANYTHING the vessel did, he is only damning them based on their nature, that is evil, and GOD CREATED. He is damning the work of his own hands. Not only that, he is a coward for not putting the blame and accountability on the individual.
So billion of Hindis had no choice in the matter. That seems cruel
Yes...only those who are born from/of/by/HIM only and 100% in their human spirits are HIS children...good bye..have fun..enjoy belittling God...bye...Yes, create your own Salvation...enjoy...
God can be “All Powerful”, and “All Knowing”, and “All Glorious”. BUT it cannot be shown that He is All Good and Morally Perfect.
For God to ‘wilfully’ and ‘purposively’ create and bring into existence billions of specific people whom He already knew He would subject to Ongoing and Everlasting Conscious Torment in His Furnace of Fire ( Hell ) is the Ultimate act of Cruelty and Immorality.
This is why I reject Christianity. Namely, because the God of the Bible is Exceedingly Cruel, Inhumane, and Immoral to all the majority of humanity ( who is Non Elect ).
As the famous English Philosopher, Bertrand Russell, wrote ….
“ There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. “
NOTE: - If you are morally horrified at the news of a little girl or boy being raped and tortured, then you would never accept Calvinism because Calvinism is far more morally horrifying.
“ The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. “ Peter
Amen. The Calvinist never seems to see the condition in any of their prooftext. The “Sovereignty of God”, that term is no where in the Bible, but freewill and willingly is. They think just because God knows everything, that means he ordained it all before Genesis 1:1. They use Romans 9 as their proof text but never actually read Exodus
@@JesusSaves1611 I see how you study Scripture with a biaist mind. That's known as eisegesis.
Have you ever studied the doctrines of grace? Have you ever studied Arminianism and Calvinism? Or just one side.
A personal hypothetical question, if God was with you face to face and said, "I have chosen/elected to save one person in the entire human history and did/will not chose to save anyone else, but that one person." What would you tell him?
If he would've told you, "you nor anyone has freewill, only I. You and everyone else are my robots/puppets. And I have decreed for everyone to go to Hell." What would you say to him?
@@thetruthinhim8862 , you said a bunch, and proposed some hypotheticals, but we really care about what the Bible says. The Bible says Christ tasted death for Everyman, and god reconciled the world to himself, via Jesus Christ.
How can “tasted death for every man” = “only for the elect chosen ones, and the rest get hell”? It Cant.
@@craigjoyner9857 ah! Praise God for universalism then! Those are good news indeed! Since Jesus tasted death for every human being then every person should not tasted death nor the wrath of God. And since every person is reconciled then every individual (including Hitler, Nero, Judas Iscariot, Julius Cesar, Goliath, Hilary Clinton, etc.) that ever existed will be blessed in the presence of the Lord! I am sure these people will be worshipping the Tirune God one day since they have been reconciled to God and death has been tasted on their behalf.
@@thetruthinhim8862 , the Bible says we have to be reconciled twice. You know that, right?!?
From a post I made in a group on Facebook.
The Universal Boogieman
We see a lot of the same old, bad arguments around here. Maybe we should try to put some of those to bed, so we can discuss topics and understandings that are more along the lines of what we should be debating. The one that I’ve heard for years is the universal atonement boogieman argument, if you don’t hold to limited atonement. It’s a really bad argument, that we should stop using.
****
See Colossians 1 below. God reconciled all things to himself, via Jesus Christ shed blood (verse 20). This is the corporal aspect of the atonement, strictly between the fathers just wrath, being bore by the son, who had no sin while suffering the punishment for sin. This required no action by man, this by itself does not forgive anyone’s sins, it simply makes salvation by grace possible for everyone, including the Old Testament saints who had to wait in Abraham’s bosom, for Christ to get them and present them as blameless because they obeyed in faith in the Old Testament. See below.
Colossians 1:20-23 KJV
[20] And, having 👉🏿made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 👈🏿[21] And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [23] 👉🏿If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, 👈🏿and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Note the conditionality above in verse 22 and 23. We are only presented before the father as holy and blameless, when we have submitted to Jesus Christ in faith and remains steady and grounded (ie enduring until the end).
In 2 cor below, note that god reconciled the world to himself (as Col 1 demonstrated), then sends the ministry of reconciliation (the gospel), and then calls for us to “be reconciled”.
We have to be reconciled twice. God reconciled back With all mankind, via Jesus Christ accomplished work, strictly between the father and the son. This is when the veil is torn from top to bottom, breaking down the wall of enmity, so salvation is now possible. That is corporal reconciliation. Then we are preached the gospel, and when we submit in faith, then we are reconciled (individual reconciliation) and must endure to the end.
2 Corinthians 5:19-21 KJV
[19] To wit, that God was in Christ, 👉🏿reconciling the world unto himself, 👈🏿not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the 👉🏿word of reconciliation.👈🏿 [20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, 👉🏿be ye reconciled to God.👈🏿 [21] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; 👉🏿that we might be made 👈🏿the righteousness of God in him.
It’s really really clear. I don’t know why anyone would assert that you have to be a universalist, when the scriptures make it plain that the atonement is made for all, so all can be saved, but only applies to those who submit in faith.
Lastly, I made a video about it already. See below. Play it at 1.5 speed, because I was sick when I made it and talked slow.
When it comes to predestination I have no problem saying I have no idea, we'll find out when we're dead. In the meantime it's best not to presume.
The Bible clear about freewill. Predestination, election and adoption are all under a condition but the Calvinist always seems to miss the condition. Anyways, 2 Peter 3:9 “NOT willing that ANY should perish, but ALL should come to repentance” no point in having this verse and many other verses like this if we were all “ordained” before genesis 1:1. “Sovereignty of God” term is no where in the Bible and when they use their prooftext like Eph1:4, Peter, and etc and their examples. They always miss out on something in the scriptures. “Freewill” and “willingly” are biblical terms Ezra 1:4-6 is just the first one out of many. Predestination is real but there is a condition. See if you can find it in Eph 1:4
No need to presume anything brother. All the answers you need are right there in Scripture and it is crystal clear on this issue. Predestination should makes us humble and grateful. Unfortunately it makes some people lazy and arrogant. But that’s typical of sinful man. God is in complete control-Colossians 1;16 and many others make this abundantly clear. God bless.
@Michael Lopez 2 Peter 3 is speaking of the believers. Please refer to the Greek Lexicon for "any" and "all" as they can be translated to mean certain groups (i.e., those who are morally justified). Furthermore, verse 9 talks about God's promise. Who is He making a promise to? Does He not fulfill all His promises or is He a liar? Does He promise that any and all will be saved in the literal sense or those whom He justified?
The words "Trinity" or "omnipotence" are not found in the Bible either, but the concepts are located within the scriptures just as God's sovereignty is (see passages Psalm 103:19, 115:3, Job 42:2, and Proverbs 19:21 for examples).
We do have a will, but our will is to do evil (Romans 3:9-18 and James 1:13-15) and we are slaves to sin before regeneration (John 8:34 and Romans 6:6-7).
Be blessed :)
@@JesusSaves1611 if He truly wills that none would perish, don't you think He is powerful enough to make that happen?
I believe God has a plan for everyone. It's up to the person to go with God's plan, or go against it. That's what free will is. Every time in my life that I'm doing what I believe God wants me to do the ride always seems smoother. Other times, when I'm away from God, life is much more difficult. I don't believe it's coincidence.
There is no such thing as free will
If we had free will, we would choose hell. Our flesh, in its nature, hates God.
@@cariowithchan That seems like a major generalization.
@@rachelderosa6380 No, that's just the way it is.
@@steventhury8366 Where is an example in Scripture?
A Calvinist dies and goes to heaven. When he arrives, he sees two lines to get in. One's labelled "Predestination" and one is labelled "Free Will". So, he goes to the back of the Predestination line and waits his turn.
When he gets to the front of the line, the angel asks, "Why did you get in this line?" to which he relies, "Well, I believe in predestination, so I chose to get in this line." The angel shakes his head and says, "No, in that case you need to be over in the free will line" - so off he goes and joins the free will line.
When he gets to the front of the free will line the Angel asks him "why are you in the free will line?" and the Calvinist answers - "that guy over there told me to"
Wow!
LOL
Now that’s funny!!
I have a better one:
As you head to enter the gates of heaven right above the gates is a sign that says "whosoever will" and when you enter and look back at the pearly gates there's a sign above the entrance that says "chosen by God".
Ahh someone explain it I want to understand the joke too 😂
What about John 3:16? For WHOSOEVER believes in Him?
The question of predestination isn't where God wants our focus. The idea that God only loves some of his creation is childish. We are all predestined for salvation. That is what Christ did. Only we can change that. God exists outside of time that is true. But we do not. Prayer works, we have work to do here and what we do matters. If I'm not mistaken it says that hell was not intended for any of us. Predestination is a theological distraction.
With all due respect, if predestination is not where God wants our focus (in your opinion), predestination is certainly talked about throughout the Bible enough that it can't be ignored - which means it probably shouldn't be ignored - and therefore I think it does demand our focus.
God, being outside time, knows the end of a thing before it begins. Predestination may not be that dissimilar from His ability to use someone's evil intentions to further a larger good result that is part of his plans. He can weave our simple actions that are locked in time into his timeless plans. I agree with Allie that it is not hard at all for me to believe God can see our hearts even before we are conceived and as he judges the intentions of our hearts , knows which of us will choose to love him even while we are flawed and then he works out plans in our favor. He doesn't need to violate our small freewill to also have chosen is before we existed because he knew everything about us before we existed. Free will and the sovereignty of ancient of days can coexist because He created ALL things, including free will.
I’ve never met a Calvanist who thought it possible that their own children could possibly not be in the elect.
That is just not true. No one in my church believes that and I interact with many other Reformed fellowships. We all recognize that our children are not necessarily elect. We teach our kids and pray that God will save them. Infant baptism is not a proclamation that our children are saved. People completely misunderstand the Reformed faith.
I disagree. There are plenty who raise up their own children in fear and admonition of the Lord, but one child is a born-again Believer while the other child is reprobate.
Curious: Do Calvanists believe the elect is changeable. That God will change His mind on who the elect are by our prayers?
If predestination is true, you hen why do you Christians get e upset with woke cultural, it is all predestibed, you there is nothing you can do. Also, the woke can't change because God doesn't care or love them. And if the woke are going to hell and you ate going to heaven, shouldn't you step aside and let them do as they want on Earth.
Calvinist have a false soteriology crafted by Satan. Sadly many will not see this until they see Jesus.
what does GOD say about "free will?"
(Isa 63:17 BSB) Why, O LORD, do You make us stray from Your ways and harden our hearts from fearing You? Return, for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.
(Psa 105:24-25 HCSB) The LORD made His people very fruitful; He made them more numerous than their foes,
(25) whose hearts He turned to hate His people and to deal deceptively with His servants.
(2Ki 19:6-7 NASB) Isaiah said to them, "Thus you shall say to your master, 'Thus says the LORD, "Do not be afraid because of the words that you have heard, with which the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed Me.
(7) "Behold, I will put a spirit in him so that he will hear a rumor and return to his own land. And I will make him fall by the sword in his own land."'"
(Pro 19:21 CSB) Many plans are in a person’s heart, but the LORD’s decree will prevail.
(Isa 14:24 BSB) The LORD of Hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand.
(Isa 14:27 NHEB16) For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can stop it? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?"
(Isa 41:4 GNB) Who was it that made this happen? Who has determined the course of history? I, the LORD, was there at the beginning, and I, the LORD, will be there at the end.
(Deu 32:39 KJV) See now that I, even I, am HE, and there is no god with ME: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of MY hand.
(Deu 32:39 Complete Apostles' Bible - LXX) Behold I, even I, am He, and there is no God beside Me: I kill, and I will make to live: I will smite, and I will heal; and there is none who shall deliver out of My hands.
(Job 42:2 BSB) “I know that You can do all things and that no plan of Yours can be thwarted.
(Exo 9:16 NAS77) "But, indeed, for this cause I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power, and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth.
(Pro 20:24 Complete Apostles' Bible - LXX) A man's steps are directed by the Lord: how then can a mortal understand His ways?
(Pro 16:1 NHEB16) The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.
(Exo 4:11 NLT) Then the LORD asked Moses, “Who makes a person’s mouth? Who decides whether people speak or do not speak, hear or do not hear, see or do not see? Is it not I, the LORD?
(Pro 16:4 BSB) The LORD has made everything for His purpose- even the wicked for the day of disaster.
(Psa 135:6 CSB) The LORD does whatever HE pleases in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all the depths.
(Jer 10:23 ESV) I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.
(Psa 115:3 NAS77) But our GOD is in the heavens; HE does whatever HE pleases.
(Pro 16:9 EVID) A man’s heart devises his way: but the LORD directs his steps.
(1Ki 22:19-23 HCSB) Then Micaiah said, "Therefore, hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on HIS throne, and the whole heavenly host was standing by HIM at HIS right hand and at HIS left hand.
(20) And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab to march up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' So one was saying this and another was saying that.
(21) "Then a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD, and said, 'I will entice him.'
(22) "The LORD asked him, 'How?' "He said, 'I will go and become a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' "Then HE said, 'You will certainly entice him and prevail. Go and do that.'
(23) "You see, the LORD has put a lying spirit into the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has pronounced disaster against you."
(2Sa 24:1 ESV) Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and HE incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
(1Ch 21:1 ESV) Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel.
(1Ch 21:7 ESV) But GOD was displeased with this thing, and HE struck Israel.
(Job 34:10 NLT) “Listen to me, you who have understanding. Everyone knows that GOD doesn’t sin! The Almighty can do no wrong.
(Job 36:22-23 NASB) "Behold, GOD is exalted in HIS power; Who is a teacher like HIM?
(23) "Who has appointed HIM HIS way, And who has said, 'YOU have done wrong'?
(Job 40:8 ESV) Will you even put ME in the wrong? Will you condemn ME that you may be in the right?
(Lam 3:37-38 CEV) No one can do anything without the Lord's approval. (38) Good and bad each happen at the command of God Most High.
(Lam 3:37-38 ERV) No one can say something and make it happen, unless the Lord orders it. (38) God Most High commands both good and bad things to happen.
(1Sa 2:6-7 HCSB) The LORD brings death and gives life; He sends some to Sheol, and He raises others up.
(7) The LORD brings poverty and gives wealth; He humbles and He exalts.
Calvin was wrong. Christ did not die for the sins of the elect. Jesus Christ died on the cross for the entire world and Scripture could not be more clear on this.
the word "world" has many different definitions ie; (Joh 12:19 NASB) So the Pharisees said to one another, "You see that you are not doing any good; look, the world has gone after Him."
Did the "world" go after HIM?
World
(1):
(n.) The inhabitants of the earth; the human race; people in general; the public; mankind.
(2):
(n.) In a more restricted sense, that part of the earth and its concerns which is known to any one, or contemplated by any one; a division of the globe, or of its inhabitants; human affairs as seen from a certain position, or from a given point of view; also, state of existence; scene of life and action; as, the Old World; the New World; the religious world; the Catholic world; the upper world; the future world; the heathen world.
(3):
(n.) The earth and its inhabitants, with their concerns; the sum of human affairs and interests.
(4):
(n.) As an emblem of immensity, a great multitude or quantity; a large number.
(5):
(n.) The earth and its affairs as distinguished from heaven; concerns of this life as distinguished from those of the life to come; the present existence and its interests; hence, secular affairs; engrossment or absorption in the affairs of this life; worldly corruption; the ungodly or wicked part of mankind.
(6):
(n.) Any planet or heavenly body, especially when considered as inhabited, and as the scene of interests analogous with human interests; as, a plurality of worlds.
(7):
(n.) Individual experience of, or concern with, life; course of life; sum of the affairs which affect the individual; as, to begin the world with no property; to lose all, and begin the world anew.
(8):
(n.) The customs, practices, and interests of men; general affairs of life; human society; public affairs and occupations; as, a knowledge of the world.
(9):
(n.) The earth and the surrounding heavens; the creation; the system of created things; existent creation; the universe.
where is scripture clear on this?
what you are implying is universal salvation.
Jesus died for all that will believe and being dead in sin and tresspass one can only believe when God opens their eyes. All God.
TL;DR: I think you take things out of context, but still really appreciate you.
EDIT: Wow, there are a lot of Calvinists here! Honestly, I've never even met someone who professed Calvinism, so this is new for me. I do appreciate what people are taking the time to write. "As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another." (Prov.27:17)
So, I'm looking at one of your favorite examples: Pharaoh. Pharaoh's heart was already hardened before God hardened it (Exodus 8:15, 19, 32 & 9:7). It makes sense that it would already be hard: he watched brutal slavery practices and saw himself as a "god" his whole life before Moses came. IDK, Allie, I like a lot of what you say, and you say not to cherry-pick, but whenever you talk predestination, you cite one verse at a time, maybe because you bounce around too quickly for me(?).
I look right to the source; right to Jesus. I look at John 3 in which Jesus clearly lays out the salvation plan: that God sent him to save the *world,* But, we must choose to believe in him.
Maybe, you just go to quickly. I have questions and objections, but you move on. I guess it's the nature of a one-woman-show. I'd like to see a conversation between a Calvinist and a non-Calvinist. Slow down, really look at the whole thing.
All this to say, I'm not convinced, but I'm glad you shared and I still appreciate your other views, such as how a Christian should live and act in the world. :)
Eugene S Smith cite your manuscript(MS) history to backup your assertion. Citing anonymous liberal textual critical scholars does nothing.
Do you want God, as He describes Himself in His Word, to be real? Your answer will tell me all one needs to know about your presuppositions.
I would seriously recommend Dr James R White’s teachings on this subject.
Read Romans. It's biblical
e batdorf, there are plenty of discussions and debates on this subject. One very telling one is between Dr. James White and Dr. Leighton Flowers going over Romans 9. Dr. White wanted both of them to go verse by verse in Romans 9 to show the interpretation. White did so, but Flowers went off on another direction and didn't do so.
No offense, the claim that Allie cherry picked is unfair because she quickly cited verses. She even said at the end that there are other places you can go to dig into the subject. And I think she did a decent job of presenting objections and answering them. I don't think Allie went into this too quickly as if she didn't study this subject because she took almost 30 minutes to explain as much as she could.
But I want to correct you on something quickly; Pharaoh's heart was hardened because God did it first; God is self-existent and anything in His sovereign plan starts with Him. In Exodus 4:11, God tells Moses he would harden Pharaoh's heart before Moses ever encounters Pharaoh. After that, God says He will harden Pharaoh again in Exodus 7:3. Then in Exodus 7:22, after the first plague, it says Pharaoh's heart was hardened (not at all that Pharaoh did it, just that it was hardened). In Exodus 8:15 is the first time it says Pharaoh hardened his heart. Then in Exodus 8:19, it says Pharaoh's heart was hardened. Then in 8:32, it again says Pharaoh hardened his heart. Exodus 9:7 then says the heart of Pharaoh's heart was hardened. In Exodus 9:12, it says the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. In 9:35, it says Pharaoh's heart was hardened. In Exodus 10:1, it says God hardened Pharaoh's heart. In Exodus 10:20, it again says the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. It says again in Exodus 10:27 that the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. Again, in Exodus 11:10 it says the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. In the twelve verses cited, it only says Pharaoh hardened his own heart twice, that Pharaoh's heart was hardened four times (not indicating that Pharaoh did it, just that it was), and the other six times it says God did it. And God told Moses He would do it first.
As for John 3:16, it does say world. But what is the definition of world here? And what type of love are we talking about? Is the love for unbelievers as the same as for believers? Not at all or Romans 8:35-39 would apply to unbelievers that never trusted in Christ, but the context of those verses clearly shows that is not true because it applies to those in Christ. These are just some of the verses and things to consider.
@Eugene S Smith fyi, Jesus said Moses was real. And He would know.
Do we have a choice? Yes and because of the fall and mankind's radical corruption man always chooses against God, man has freedom to choose the sin he desires but when the grace of God appeared hearts were changed by God the Holy Spirit, not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us. Amen. Anyone who claims election & predestination makes God into a monster is someone who is deeply deceived and still hasn't understood who they are and who God is.
If you always choose something and can’t not choose it, that’s called determinism
Also not a choice
Tupac
Total depravity (of man)
Unconditional election
Particular redemption
All powerful grace
Certainty of salvation
@Johan Strydom
no
Give your best joke acronym
We all know the standard five point acronym
Lmao
😂😂🤣🤣😂😂
Great explanation of an unpopular and difficult theological concept. Our Western culture rejects the idea of a king, who is in control of all things. It just blows our mind!
The 6th Ecumenical Council condemned double predestination.
But by nature, determinism of the elect necessitates that those not elect be damned. You could say the elect have a choice, but idk if you could find the support for that. Determinism is a belief system of extremes. If you want to be consistent, you have to be extreme.
Ward, using the term, "double predestination" is not a biblical, or Calvinistic teaching.
I think the term represents your misunderstanding of biblical predestination. Using the term "double predestination" indicates a denial of man's depravity and that it's not fair if God chooses some, and passes by others.
I have always thought that God just knows everything. He wants all of us to come to Him but He can't help but see whether or not we will come to Him.
that creates a picture of a God who is pacing with fingers crossed hoping someone takes His gift, not a very powerfull image:)
The Apostle Paul was confronted by a God who intervenes in human affairs.
I don't agree. We are chosen as a people to be saved, not as individuals. Believers in Christ are predestined to live with God after we die and those who reject Him are predestined to live without Him after they die. We as individuals have the choice to be a part of God's people or to not to be.
Just like a child being born into an abusive family, they didn't have control over what family they were born into, so you could argue that this child is 'predestined' to be with this family. But it is the child's choice on how they respond to this situation. They can harden their hearts and carry on the abuse onto their own family or they can be different and choose love. (this is just an example, I know it's not that easy)
Here's the situation I based that off of: John 15:16, You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit-fruit that will last-and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. The disciples didn't have a choice when Jesus asked them to follow him, they were asked whether they wanted to be or not, but they could have walked away at any time. And many followers did. Judas is the first that come to most people's mind. I'm sure there's so much more that I could add on but I would need to research it more in depth, I would love to hear a response!
Wow God is surly using you as a mouth piece for himself, your teachings (not preaching) is truth! Thank you & keep doing what you’re doing, you are a light & God is so so good 🙌🏼
25:59 While our free will is not the source of the grace, it is the thing God ordained as accepting it.
"If anything happens outside of His control then He is no longer sovereign..." As you can see, for the Calvinist (and Allie), God is a control freak. He has to be the cause of everything in the universe else He is not God . He therefore is the cause of all sin and evil in the world and was responsible for man to fall in the Garden. He caused sin and death to enter into the world. He is responsible for all people to be evil and to be dead in sin. He is all powerful and can give everybody the grace to be saved but does not love everybody. He prefer to cast those He does not help into eternal fire so that His sovereignity can be glorified... Fortunately the God of Calvin (and of Allie) is not the God of scripture. Thank God...
God is sovereign and knows all. Because of that we have a limited free will. He knows what I will choose because He is God and outside of time, but it is His will that ALL be saved so we are to spread the good news. Verses like Ezekiel 3:18-19 lead me to believe that we choose to accept the gift of salvation. He sends no one to Hell. They choose it themselves by rejecting the free gift of salvation. In His sovereignty He allows us to be wrong sometimes, just as a parent allows their child to make poor choices that breaks their heart. He doesn't want anyone to go to Hell, but He allows people to choose to live in sin without repentence and it breaks His heart. That's limited free will. He allows all things and will give every opportunity for people to choose life...to choose to follow Jesus. God is big. His ways are not our ways. We often like to try to put Him in frameworks that make most sense to our finite minds. I don't think it is an either/or, but a both/and. God is sovereign and we have a limites free will to accept Him or to choose death..."I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live..." Deut. 30:19. This verse in the Old Testament, but oh so relevant today, also leads me to believe that God in His power, sovereignty and wisdom has put us in position with the faculty to choose life or death.
GerDonna Ellis does God fail to save any that He redeemed? And while we are commanded to repent and obey the Gospel, show me a Bible verse that teaches we creatures have autonomous free will. Or put another way and paraphrasing Nebuchadnezzar(Daniel 5:35), who can resist His will?
@@jerramiehelmick7999 Not here to argue. Just as Allie said, God is so big and all wise. I just wanted to share my take on it. The real issue amd most important thing is do you believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and are you living a life submitted to Him. That's the real deal. If you believe you get to heaven because God chose you or because you accepted Christ, the point is did you get there and did you live for Him :)
GerDonna Ellis your comment shows you don’t understand what we Reformed people believe.
@@jerramiehelmick7999 I hear ya, but the real issue isn't reformed vs whatever, it is are you saved and living for Christ. Many churches have split over issues that are menial in the grand scheme. We are at liberty to disagree on such a minor point and still live as brothers and sisters in Christ...just like issues of post tribulation or pre trib. We are merely sprculating based on interpretations of scripture. The real issue is to just be ready whenever Christ returns or calls you home. If it gets into "I'm right, you're wrong" when there is no clear indisputable backing based in scripture, then it falls into the vain argumemt category that we as Believers are not to engage in. If it remains a sharing of ideas to grow and pursue the heart and will of God then it is fruitful. I am completely willing to admit that I don't have God figured out, nor will I ever have Him figured out. I am the created, He is the creator. He is all powerful, all knowing, all wise, and I have a lot of growing, surrendering, and learning to do.
@@gerdonnaellis2441 Amen! Our ways are not God's ways. Let us focus on spreading the Gospel that more shall be saved. Only God knows who will receive the message and be saved. We are called to do our part to live as living sacrifices unto the Lord.
Hello Allie! Any chance you can arrange a debate between Dr. James White and Leighton Flowers on your show about this topic?
I am sure there would be tons of your brothers and sisters who would love to see that happening on your show.
It is God's Sovereign Will that we have free will. Who wants a relationship with a robot? Jesus died to redeem the world
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Henry Ward Beecher quaintly put it, “The elect are the “whosoever wills” and the non-elect are the “whosoever won'ts”..”
@@nerychristian God is calling out all sinners to repentance. If you're a sinner, He is speaking to you.
This is what would happen if the choice were ours:
Romans 3:10-12 LSB
[10] as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one; [11] There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; [12] All have turned aside, together they have become worthless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.”
Everyone would face eternal punishment.
I cannot stand calvinist cult. I would say believe in simple truths and we don’t have to complicate things. there is two ways, either Christ’s way or Devil’s way.Period.
If you CHOOSE to believe in Christ then you are saved. Simple.
We are NOT predestined to go to hell. God doesn’t choose people to go to hell.
On the other hand. Let God be God!!! He is just and merciful and He has choices too but that doesn’t contradict with His ways and rules.
Consider the below comment on this heated debate that has plagued Christianity since Calvin and Arminius.
"So, in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, who is correct? It is interesting to note that in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism. There are five-point Calvinists and five-point Arminians and at the same time three-point Calvinists and two-point Arminians. Many believers arrive at some sort of mixture of the two views. However, both systems fail in that they attempt to explain the unexplainable. Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this. Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation. These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense."
I've struggled for many years to reconcile the folks who add: to scripture, "God looked down the corridor of time and saw who would choose him."
I've heard this statement but nowhere does God tell us HOW election works. I leave it to God who very plainly tells us, "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither your ways my ways." Isaiah 55:8
Ephesians 1
Romans 8
John 6
may i ask what you put those verses for ?
@@skafan89
those are chapters relevant to a subject such as this "Predestination: Do we have a choice?"
Entire narrative of Bible from Genesis to Revelation. The Bible doesn’t stop at three chapters.
@@bucsfan2565 - "Predestined: we have a choice, and we always choose what He decrees"
@@timffoster "I believe in free will. You have the free will to do what God forces you to do".
The way I reconcile choice and election is this way:
Look at it as a play; what you see in front stage are the actors playing out their role. In this case, choosing Christ, etc. But behind the curtains is what drives these players to perform these acts, such coming and believing in Christ.
So, did we come to Christ? Yes!
Did God draw us to his Son? Yes!
A look at it as a novel:
The author plans and writes his novel. The characters in the book are clueless on what is going to happen in the next pages, unlike the author, He knows everything (because He wrote it). Furthermore, the characters will do what the author have decreed/wrote in the novel. Why? Well because it pleased the author.
Complex as it is to our finite minds, never angry because God ordained/decreed whatever. Simply say, "your will be done."
My peanut size brain can only handle a minuscule amount of God's infinite wisdom. Thus, I will just say, "you chose us, and we came to your Son. You equipped us with faith/belief/repentance, and I was able to believe and repent and I thank You for that." At the end His will was done.
I cannot believe this is 3 years old, I would've thought this to have just been posted recently since it is so incredible! How have I only come across it now? I will be sharing it with everyone as this is so far the best, quickest, and biblically accurate explanation of predestination. Others rely too much on their emotions than on the almighty One. My husband and I will continue to pray blessings and continued strength to you and your family, Allie, as God has great plans for you! Thank you for speaking out on truth, regardless of how unpopular it may be.
- "faith (comes by) hearing and [hearing by] the word of God" - is the rightly divided explanation as to this
About the sparrow ... there is God’s perfect will and His permissive will. Just something to learn about. Thank you for sharing.
My approach is different from most. I've noticed those from a reformed perspective spit out a bunch of scripture with no analysis (hence misusing passages like Romans 9) but those of non reformed tend to use little scripture and mostly logic. I think both are flawed. Use Scripture, but make sure you use it correctly, the way it's written. If you're interested, go to my channel and watch my video on the worst arguements for and against reformed theology. A critique for both main sides.
One Outta One Yes. They butcher the orthodox understanding of Romans 9.
Dead is dead. Just as a dead person can not reach for oxygen or even breathe the air around them…the same is for the spirit dead…He has made alive. What faith we have is by Him…it’s ALL Him.
The context of Romans 9 isn't salvation. It's raising up or hardening people for His purposes to be accomplished on Earth. Jacob (Israel) was God's chosen vessel to establish a nation on Earth. That doesn't mean that God predestined Jacob for heaven and Esau for hell. It just means that God determined that Jacob was better suited for establishing a covenant people to bring God's Kingdom to Earth.
I know that this is old but I'm so encouraged that you talked this topic and did so exactly with the truth of scripture. Not that this is easy teaching but all believers are required to submit to what scripture actually says.
So certain people are predestined to go to hell no matter what they do? How is that even remotely fair or just?
Why submit? I’m not elect…. Jesus died for some.
It’s illogical.
Seems to me you’re a Calvinist, but I respectfully disagree. In Romans 8:29, you’re so focused on “predestined” but you kinda missed what “Foreknew” means. God is all knowing on which we agree, meaning God knew who are His by the choices we make and the reason he predestined believers. Free will is still vital in the premise of foreknowledge of God.
This same word translated "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 is also used in 11:2 regarding God's knowledge of Israel ("God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew), It is used in Acts 26:5 of the knowledge the Jews had of Paul's way of life as a Pharisee, In 1 Peter 1:20 it is used of God's knowledge of Christ ("He was foreknown before the foundation of the world..."), and it is used in 2 Peter 3:17 of the knowledge that believers have regarding false teachers ("You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand,..."). I am sorry, but the Biblical usage of the word Proginosko does not uphold your interpretation as God looking into the future and seeing what would happen. Your interpretation makes God subservient to man.
Rebecca Otis I respectfully disagree. God is never subservient to man. Omniscient God can use man’s bad choices into good use (Joseph sold as slave). God created angels with free will. The reason Satan is. Man would never fallen if your claim is true.
@@pastortedhuelgas9232 Creatures don't and cannot have the same will as their Creator; that was the point Rebecca was trying to get across. The devil's will is not free and autonomous like God's, he's on a tight leash and still needs to ask for permission to do things (See Job and Revelation)
Choice Meat Randy we can’t compare God’s will to His creation. First, His Will is perfect and good. Our will could be either good or bad. Secondly, He’s sovereign and we are not. Our will could be bad, but putting it into action is where, just like Satan has limitations as it depends on God’s sovereignty & permissive will. That being said, our innermost desire (hearts) and will is where God looks at. If God can’t look onto our future decisions and will, he is not God anymore. God is omniscient and omnipresent. He is not subject to time and space that He created. We can’t say what God can and cannot do. But we can say what the Bible has already said.
@@HuelgasTed Did you respond to the wrong person? Seems like you're agreeing with all I said.
Interesting... I’ve been led to a lot of Calvinist pastors and teachings and I haven’t made a decision on whether I believe in predestination or not but this has me thinking and I know in time God will allow me to see His truth so I can make my our decision. Thank you for this video
If I can offer advice, I would say read and understand Scripture as literal as possible. Allegorizing Scripture is very dangerous. I’m not a Calvanist, but I think they interpret Scripture better than the Armeniast do. But Scripture is way too clear on this topic. Important to note that man is completely responsible for his or her unbelief. Kinda hard to completely understand but true none the less. God bless you.
God bless.
Calvinism is not a good take on predestination, and the Bible in general
Check out Dr Jordan Cooper's take on it, on Just and Sinner podcast.
The Bible talks so much of our inability to do what God requires, even to believe in faith. So much for our "free will"! Our will is enslaved and our choices are limited by our sinful nature. Just as a fish cannot fly or a bat cannot do geometry, sinners cannot repent, though we are called to do so, and it is through the preaching of the gospel that the Holy Spirit might bring conviction of sin and replace the heart of stone with a heart of flesh that is broken by their sin and wants to stop rebelling and start pleasing God. But It must come from outside the sinner.
John 6 is extraordinarily clear from our Lord's own words. He says all that the Father gives me will come to me... Noone can come to me, no one is able, unless the father who sent me draws him. This is God's will: that Jesus won't lose any that God has given to Jesus.
Isn't that comforting as a child of God prone to the drifts of human emotions that our renewed spirit didn't originate from within us and we cannot undo that transformation - it is the mission of our Lord to keep us grafted into himself.
I also loved 1 Corin 2, go and read the whole train of thought, but Paul specifically says: the natural person does not accept the things of the spirit of God, indeed he cannot.
'According to His purpose' many are predestined to 'be conformed to the image of His Son' (Rom.8:28,29, 9:21,23). What does this mean? It means that there is a remnant that 'shall be saved' (Rom.9:27), which 'receive with meekness the engrafted Word' (Ja.1:21, 4:3) to which He grants grace and salvation (1Pet.1:9,10,13).
We learn this from Jesus (Matt.11:29, 18:3) as He points out those which are justified by grace (Lu.18:14, Tit.3:7, 1Pet.5:5,6, Ps.149:4). Look up these key verses, and think about them, and to whom God gives grace (Is.61:1, Prov.3:34,35) as He wills (Matt.25:33,34, Eccl.10:2, Ps.149:4, Jn.5:21). This truly is Good News, designed for His sheep!
Great job Allie, truth speaks volumes.... I respect your audacity. So admirable
God could of eliminated the human race since the beginning, why go to all this suffering ? he could of ended it with Adam and Eve, none of of could of been alive no harm done
So, how do I know if I am chosen or not?
I just noticed you have not received an answer after a whole year. I just listened to the entire video and she has done a great job explaining this.
Here is your answer. Jesus said all who come to me I will never turn away. That means if you have done that and you see that everyday you are seeking him , you don't need to ever ask this question. Why ? Because your assurance comes from His promise to you. That does not mean you wont stumble, it means when you do then you still turn to Him and repent- everyday since we sin everyday.
I hope this helps.
You are spot on. So glad to hear from folks who actually believe what the Bible says and is given the ability to understand it. It is God’s Word. God bless you and stay in your Bible fellow sister in Christ. I believe His Word no matter what it says and the Greek definition of Predestination supports your/our view on this topic. Thank you and God bless
Fatalism is not biblical. The idea of predestination is obviously true. It has nothing to do with double predestination.
That's exactly incorrect.
Any selection of groups in a true dichotomy, is a double predetermination, by definition. There is no other option.
If you pick a basketball team from a group of people, there are only 2 catergories. Either you are on the team or you are not on the team. Those you meticulously select, to give you the best chance at winning, to be on the team are on the team. Those you looked over and did not select in that same meticulous decision, also have their fate sealed by the same meticulous decision.
Similarly, if your choice is random, the fate of those overlooked is sealed by the same random choice.
It’s a true Calvinistic dilemma. Predetermination, as understood by the Calvinist, makes God partial and is hopeless.
@@craigjoyner9857 "makes God partial"
It doesn't; though I do wonder that if you lob this exact same accusation when you consider the fact that God chose Israel as His chosen nation and utterly destroyed the Canaanites...
I would like to hear how the Calvinists know if they themselves were predestined to go to Heaven. If they are right they may be in for a big shock if they discover that they weren't. God said "whosoever will" may come. They like to use Pharoah to prove their point but he hardened his own heart before God did.
@@raymatthews4319 Does God know the future with absolute certainty? I feel after you answer this question, this problem goes away.
@@choicemeatrandy6572 He knows the future but that does not mean he forces people to sin. He is not willing that any should perish but He will not force one to repent against their will. Jesus knew Peter would deny Him but that doesn't mean He wanted Peter to do it nor did He force him to.
While I absolutely believe God causes/ordains/determines some things. I don’t believe He causes everything to happen. In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, "People built high places to sacrifice their children (in fire) to foreign gods, and He (God) says, "I did NOT COMMAND this, nor did it enter my mind."
These are just a few of the MANY verses that speak of people making a choice; where Calvinism says, there is "No choosing" God decides. Isaiah 56:4 says, "For this is what the Lord says: “To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who CHOOSE what pleases me..." Isaiah 65:12 says, "...I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and CHOSE what displeases me.” Isaiah 7:15 says, "...He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and CHOOSE the right..." Proverbs 3:31 says, "... Envy thou not the oppressor, and CHOOSE none of his ways." 1 Chronicles 21:11 says, "So Gad went to David and said to him, “This is what the Lord says: ‘Take your CHOICE: three years of famine, three months of being swept away before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of the sword of the Lord..."
By the way, the Calvinist will often quote Jesus, "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him." I agree. BUT, it says "unless the Father draws him." It does NOT say unless the Father CAUSES him or FORCES him to come to Christ.
Then why would someone even care to listen to any of the Bible, there would be no way for you to change your life. All is for nil. Why even listen to you?
Then why is Jesus even relevant his death has no meaning. I have after 40 years of Biblical study in not only academia but in life as well, come to the belief and faith in Christ’s death and resurrection as the way to life eternal. I still believe man is given the opportunity and the choice to accept Christ for salvation or condemnation.
One last thing, what would be the reason for the story of man’s fall from Eden? Praise Yeshua. Always love you in Christ
Pre Destination is confirmation that god knows all. He knew the end from the beginning and has prepared the inheritance of all his children.
He's not condemning us to any fate. We all have the opportunities in life to accept his will and keep his commandments, and to repent if we fall short.
We have free will. Pre-destination seems more like we have no autonomy, but that only works if god doesn't know what we will choose and is watching things unfold as we would. He doesn't choose our destination, we do. We reap what we sew.
It bugs me when atheists try and throw pre-destination as proof positive that mankind has no free will according to Christians. Whereas, I think 99.99% of Christians would agree that god isn't cruel, and doesn't program us to follow a path into a particular fate. Otherwise, what's the point of temptation and redemption? They're obsolete if we'll all choose what we're going to choose one way or another and we have no say in the matter.
Under that paradigm, it sounds like God would be just as happy playing a game of pinball as battling for our eternal happiness.
You're a doll... Keep doing what you do.
Why does man have so much doubt and yet so much CONVICTION in the true word of our lord....