Bennett Cerf - Oral History - Notable New Yorkers - Part 3
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- Bennett Cerf - Oral History - Notable New Yorkers
Interviewed by Robin Hawkins
This interview is from 23rd of January 1968
Part 3:
Bennett Cerf describes how Dorothy Kilgallen didnt fit in with the rest of the cast, and how she was always a reporter first and a WML panellist second
Bennett then speaks about the death of Fred Allen
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The quality of the original recording isn't amazing, but I think it's very interesting to hear Bennett Cerf speak about WML - so I wanted to share it with all of you WML-fans out there :D
I have tried to improve and equalize the sound, so you don't have to turn the volume up and down all the time - Hope it works...
Bennett Cerf, eminent publisher and punster, was a founder and chairman of Random House Books, a writer and editor of many humor books, and a popular panelist on television's long-running game show, What's My Line?
Very good interview. The “what’s my line” panel were just truly awesome.
So interesting to hear his behind-the-scene perspective.. How wonderful it would've been for everyone involved to have been interviewed for a book. Bennett should have thought of that! ❤
During the several minutes that Bennett devotes to Dorothy, he never even hints at the fact that his Random House company published the book "Murder One" in September 1967, less than two years after her death. The company had contracted with Dorothy four years before she died. They had a signed agreement that she would write a book of her memories and hindsight evaluations of murder trials she had covered. The title "Murder One" referred to murder in the first degree, though how many millions of Americans knew that in the 1960s when peacetime murders of civilians were rare?
The most recent case on which Dorothy reflected for her book was the Sam Sheppard case. If she hoped to include Oswald and Ruby, Random House never acknowledged it.
New York newspapers reported that on the night Dorothy died, she brought some of her Murder One writing with her to the What's My Line studio. (It was CBS Studio 52 on West 54th Street, today a Broadway theaer.) Newsday said that after the live telecast ended, she read it out loud to Bennett. Newsday had a direct quote from Bennett in which he indicated that that's how it had gone down. Specifically, he said this happened after the live broadcast, not before.
During Bennett's 1968 oral history at Columbia University that you hear in this video, he doesn't get near any issues related to "Murder One." Bennett's widow Phyllis, who sometimes worked at Random House, told Dorothy's biographer in 1978 that the company had arranged for a writer named Allan Ullman to write "Murder One" using old newspaper clippings that Dorothy had saved. You don't find Ullman's name anywhere in the book. Phyllis claimed that Dorothy's widower had approved Ullman's writing.
So was she murdered or what? Had people noticed that she had a bad habit with booze and barbituates?
Ms. Hawkins' laugh at the end is just darling.
Also, BENNETT SO GREAT. Thanks for the upload!
@WMLandPassword: Thank you very much for posting this, even though it's painful to hear the negative things about Dorothy Kilgallen. Two things *really* surprise me about this five part interview, however: (1) while Fred Allen's death was mentioned, Dorothy's wasn't! I am dumbfounded by that, especially given the apparent heartfelt tributes by the panelists the week following her death; (2) that more wasn't said about Steve Allen. He was an amazing panelist, very funny and a class act.
thanks so much! good to have the inside tip.
Not all Hearst newspaper columnists were wingnuts. Westbrook Pegler was. Bennett Cerf wasn't. He wrote a New York Journal American column containing riddles and jokes. Dorothy Kilgallen wasn't, either.
Bennett was married 2 or 3 times. His final wife was the cousin of Ginger Rogers and their marriage lasted a long time.
Thank you for posting! I must say i always liked Cerf as a panelist but after hearing him here, he was not as gracious and open minded as he came across - to me anyway. Question: What specifically are the politics of a Hearst Girl? Seems to me, from what he says here, that he supported the McCarthy hearings.
Listen to part one, he didn’t like McCarthy
@@multoc Well then, that's a plus
John Daly was a conservatively-aligned Republican, but Cerf implied that only Kilgallen was the political outsider. Daly was likely more conservative than Kilgallen. Kilgallen seemed apolitical and not one to let politics get in the way of a good story. Francis and Cerf were both liberals, and I have no idea what Fred Allen was on the politcial spectrum. At any rate, Francis, Daly, Cerf, and Allen were close friends on the same social level despite their political differences.
John Daly was married to the daughter of the chief Justice of the U S at the time, Earl Warren.
Personally I never cared for Fred Allen. To me he just wasn't funny (I've listened to his radio show before) and didn't fit in well on the panel. Now Steve Allen (no relation for you younger people watching) was great and I wish he would have stayed on longer.
I do so agree!! Steve Allen was a delight!!!
All I'm saying is that the sword swallower brought the sword for a demonstration (at 2:08), and it seems, according to Mr. Cerf, that Daly wouldn't allow it. Beyond that, I have no idea what you're on about.
The SWORDSWALLOWER brought the sword. Use your head, man!
Is there any contact info for Robin Hawkins?
What does he mean when he says that Dorothy was a "Hearst girl"? Something to do with W.R.H?
@aida - Cerf meant Kilgallen was a writer for various publications of the Hearst Corporation. In addition to the newspapers that ran her front page articles, such as the New York Journal-American and San Francisco Examiner, magazines such as Cosmopolitan were owned by Hearst and occasionally ran articles by Kilgallen.
Was it dorothy gigglin?
If the panel has to guess the (unknown) occupation of the guest, then how did Dorothy K. know to bring a sword to the show on the night a sword swallower was a contestant? "Gee Dorothy, is that a sword you're carrying? What's the occasion?" Seems a bit fishy.
The sword swallower brought her own sword, I believe, not Dorothy.
Thing is, when it comes to the show, Fred Allen's death was a much bigger deal - he died the morning before, while Dorothy died just a day or so after the show; by the time Sunday rolled around the grief and pain were not so evident. Plus by that point they'd done it before. That said, it seems obvious Cerf had just a bit of a grudge against Kilgallen and it shows.
I don’t like how Bennett referred to Dorothy as a outsider and wasn’t friends etc due to different politics. What does that mean?
GoldenGirl11 In one of the other interviews, Bennett said Dorothy would overhear conversations between the WML cast before taping of the shows and later those conversations would show up in her gossip column. The WML cast members were not happy with that.
It means she (and the Hearst newspapers) supported the demagogic anti-communist witch hunter Sen. Joseph McCarthy.
Seems the Mickey Cohen/Mike Wallace incident (2:32 ) happened around mid-June 1957. "John Daly never forgave her about this."
Watching all those WML reruns on GSN a few yrs back... I must say never caught a hint of any animosity or strain between JD and DK.
Surprised to hear she was (rather?) conservative in her politics
May 26, 1957 was the Sunday afternoon when John Daly phoned actor Tom Ewell’s Connecticut house asking to speak to What’s My Line executive producer Gil Fates. (Fates and Ewell were friends). Daly told Fates that Mike Wallace must be replaced as that night’s mystery guest.
The New York Journal-American edition of Monday afternoon, May 27 had a scoop about John Daly’s refusal to appear on-camera with Mike Wallace. The front page article appeared without a byline, but on Sunday night, June 2, Daly angrily confronted Dorothy Kilgallen about that invasion of his privacy. He had figured out that she had written the article. He believed the public should not have learned the information.
@@kelloggs5473 You sound very authoritative, but your source please?
@David Perkins Our source on those details is the 1978 book about What’s My Line? by Mr. Gil Fates, one of its producers.
@@kathrynfauble9053 Thank you!
Thankfully, the interviewer pretty much kept out of it; she bordered on annoying. He was an interesting character and, as with all of them, was fun. Wrong about Wally Cox, however. Cox was refreshingly different. Right about Steve Allen, certainly one of the more entertaining and quick-witted of the panelists.
You can't really call her an interviewer. She never followed up on anything that might show him in a negative light, even while Cerf attacks the reputation of dead people. That's what legit interviewers do. Ronin Hawkins makes Barbara Walters look vicious.
I prefer that Mr. Cerf tell it like it was concerning Ms. Kilgallen, who was obviously a great reporter. As part of a small, intimate, WML team, Dorothy was privy to CONFIDENTIAL information. When that information showed up as news items, she'd made a choice to be a reporter first and foremost and to break the trust of that intimate WML team. Thereafter, they watched what they said in her presence. Mr. Cerf did not attack the dead by simply telling the truth.
Groucho Marx was annoying to me as a panelist, as was Shelly - I think they just thought this was a platform for their stand-up comedy - Wrong - this is an ensemble show. lol
This is not an interview so much as a one-sided, self-serving autobiography. Notice Cerf when talking about Hal Block being vulgar never mentions Groucho's gross vulgarity on the show, but he was Jewish too. Cerf was an opportunist who who had no qualms about taking advantage of the situation created by senator McCarthy to originally get on the show by replacing a panelist who got caught up in the communist witch hunt. Cerf seems to have a thing for attacking Gentiles, unless they are his boss. He makes it sound like he and Hal Block were best friends when he wanted to be the funny one on the show and did not want to be upstaged by Block's humor or Dorothy's intellect. So again, Cerf the opportunist here basically admits he had something to do with the firing of Hall Block.
If you want to know the true character of Cerf or you think Trump University is a big scandal, Google "Famous Writers School" about the scandal caused by the phony correspondence writing school that Cerf founded, "Famous Writers School" that had as many as 65,000 at any given point in time and was doing $48 million a year in tuition in 1969, much of it taxpayer paid tuition from the GI Bill.
"Mitford's article on the school, "Let Us Now Appraise Famous Writers", was originally commissioned by McCall's, but they declined to print it for fear of offending Bennett Cerf.[1] The Atlantic Monthly later printed the piece in their July 1970 issue. (Mitford was already notorious at the time for her muckraking 1963 book on the American funeral industry, The American Way of Death.)." Wikipedia
Cerf was not immune to misogynistic language that we find offensive today, comments about how pretty a female contestant is, teasing Daly for calling conferences just because the contestant is a pretty woman, asking a woman if he good looks help her in her job., etc.
Basically anything that he criticizes Dorothy for doing on the show he also did and/or the other panelists he like so much did as well.
mark pope Cerf and his misogyny was from another era. The late 60’s was the “crossover” time when women were just beginning to fill roles of authority in the mainstream and these women often made it onto the show.
I loved the WML show when a female had to correct the men’s use of the phrase, “lady repairman, or lady mailman”, etc.
These women were smart and competent in their fields and probably put a male panelist’s nose out of joint a time or two with their firm “you mean a mailwoman.” It was a hard battle, but now, in 2021, we have stopped assigning a gender role to almost every profession.
@@GOLDVIOLINbowofdeath this interview was part of the Columbia University Oral History Project. The intent was for interviewees to relate their recollections, their story. When considered from that vantage point, the self-serving description is not accurate. A side thought regarding Cerf not commenting on Groucho Marx's behavior as compared to Hal Bloch, this likely due in part to Groucho's being an occasional panelist whereas Hal Bloch was a regular panelist.
As regards Bennett's last comment about "all-time worst" fourth panelist: As bad as Wally Cox and Rudy Vallee were on the show (and they were), I think that Victor Borge was just as bad as they, if not much, much worse. And, inexplicably, he was on as a panelist several times over the years.......
I agree totally!!!
I would add Groucho Marx.
Bennett's impression of Wally Cox as a bad panelist stems from the March 27, 1955 program which was actually the second (and last) time he did the show. The first time he was actually quite funny, but on this program he was a total disaster.
This is quite interesting but if I posted it I would add a disclaimer that the opinions are those of Mr. Cerf and not necessarily my own.
Mark Pope and
i'm surprised daly kept her on the show after what she did to him
Daly had no power to fire/hire anyone. Goodson & Todman did.
Although he had an effeminate voice, he was not gay...
Who was not gay
One never really knows, but he was married (to a woman) for many years.
I never liked Dorothy. She was always trying to make herself look better. "Did I buy you a suit?" "Did I see you at this restaurant?" or other things and was just kind of whiny.
You took that opinion right out of Cerf's mouth. He was not the nice guy he wants us to think he was.
I mean there are both sides of the coin.I like Dorothy in some respects but in general I would not want to meet or be friends with her. I would like to meet Cerf and learn about him but maybe not be permanent chums.
Ms. Kilgallen was to be admired for her work , but kept at a distance. Mr. Cerf was a joy to behold!
+Hope Sears - I didn't like Dorothy at first. But when I learned of her investigative reporting skills and how she was murdered for them (by the same people who murdered Marilyn Monroe, with JFK and Frank Sinatra as the connecting links), I developed a respect for her. You are right about her snooty attitude, though.
Cerf was the one who kept asking, “Did I have lunch with you last week?”
Asking personal questions was Dorothy’s way of ensuring she didn’t guess Vic Damone again.
To be honest , I never cared for Bennett- whiny cry baby . I am pretty sure he was a closet case.
Was bennett a homosexual?
@Mary C - Bennett Cerf was married twice, not three times. There is no evidence he was gay.
NO.