Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne, possibly the best attack helicopter never made
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- Опубліковано 4 сер 2020
- The roots of the Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne go back the 1950s and experiments with a rigid rotor hub helicopter but the results were so good that the US Army commissioned a project to study its potential uses which eventually lead to the AH-56.
To many, this was the best attack helicopter of the 20th century but to the USAF and its competitors, it was a threat that was just too much to bear so in the end and under combined pressure the project was cancelled. This is the story of the best helicopter that never was.
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Images and footage : Lockheed, US Army, USAF, US Army Aviation Museum, Boeing, Martin Walsh Red Dune Films
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"Advanced military tech in the 50s/60s/70s! What stopped it?"
Me: it's going to be politics, isn't it?
"Interservice rivalry and the vested interests of well-embedded military suppliers..."
Which is fancy way of saying... politics.
The 3 Prime Evils, Money, Politics, and Lawyers.
I'm sure it was the infiltrated communist/socialist /modernist agents that degrade every good thing, even today as in all prehistory.
@@eujebenqo6159
I do hope its just the internet that means I can't detect the sarcasm. But to be fair, interservice rivalries have been a thing for as long as there has been warfare, and governing them has always been a balancing act for governments and that's before we factor in the issue of jobs. I'm not saying its a good thing, just that, it is a thing. And I mean its not as if the A-10 was a bad aircraft, or the US Army was especially screwed because of it. Sometimes you lose out, thems the breaks.
Humans, making lives miserable since day one, even within the same team.
The USAF got the A10 - and has spent every waking minute since its introduction trying to kill it.
The cannon alone has given it extra life.
The Air Force is wired. Go ahead and scrap it to make the Space Force.
Marines got the A-10
@@Marinealver
But change the name because, really?
_"Spaceforce"??_
What moron came up with that name?
@@MostlyPennyCat Trump of course
My Dad was heavily involved with the Cheyenne project in the 60s. Not to many people are aware that the work on this project was being done at the Lockheed Van-Nuys facility. I have some pictures put away of him and his crew working on the first prototype. I remember asking him latter on how he felt about the Cheyenne project being canceled. I recall that he smiled at me and said that Helicopters were a bother and that he had plenty of work to keep him busy. In the late 70s my Dad took me around the Burbank facility and into Skunk Works, which was his place of business. I was very fortunate to visit the Model Shop. This is where models of every kind of aircraft that Lockheed was working on or had been working on was made. One very interesting model caught my eye. It was known as the Stop and Stow Rotor Helicopter. The idea was that once the craft got airborne and up to speed, the stubby wings would provide lift, then the rotors would stop. They would fold to the back, two large doors would open on the back and the blades would lower into the fuselage. Then the doors would close and like magic you have a jet aircraft. I had asked if they were going to build it and was told that they had never found a way to lower the blades with out them starting to whip and beat the craft into pieces. I offered some ideas and they looked at me and grinned from ear to ear. That’s when I realized that I was talking to the some major pros in this field. I might as well been telling Einstein that I had an idea to improve his theory of relativity. Here is to my Dad, a Great Man.
Please explain, I'm a little slow: how precisely would the helicopter power itself once the rotors were stowed? I get stub wings providing significant lift at high speed - that's the only reason the Hind was able to fly combat missions with a full loadout - but the forward-canted rotor still provided forward thrust.
@@harveywallbanger3123 jet engine.
@@mikecochrane1437 I see... but wouldn't that mean two engines? You'd need a turboshaft to spin the rotor(s) and then a separate turbojet to provide forward thrust. One of them is always going to be doing nothing except being heavy. That was the same problem with the Yak series of Soviet STOVL aircraft.
@@harveywallbanger3123 no idea pal he just said jet so that’s what I went with. We have drones these days so I’m sure the idea has been shelved anyhow.
My father was the AH-56 and than one day he never came home....
“Intense lobbying” from bell . Well that’s all you need to know really.
That's how our govt. works. It's all about money.
A very American problem.
I seem to remember something about LBJs wife having a large interest in Bell...........
@@2Potates ...Yes. Only America has government BS.
War isn't just in some country somewhere. It's also in country clubs.
-We need some weight to test the stability of the prototype.
-Ok, I'll fill this bag with some rocks
-Nah. Hey Jones, how much do you weigh?
Jones is a Brit so he says 15 stone :)
-What about the safety inspector? What will he say??
-Jones IS the safety inspector!
A bag of rocks requires a requisition form, but Jones is salaried so you can do whatever you want with him!
In 1978 I was in a U.S.Army training facility in Virginia. I was there to learn the weapons system of the AH-1 Cobra Attack Helicopter. Very near the beginning of the training, the trainer showed us several films on the capabilities of the Ah-56 Cheyenne. We all knew that what we were being trained for was just temporary as the U.S Army was within a few years going to transition to a more advanced weapons platform. The entire class was pretty excited about the Cheyenne. At the end of the presentation the trainer explained that the Cheyenne project was put on indefinite hold and possible scraping. We were shocked. He explained the politics behind it all. And I just remember the frustration in his voice over this system not being adopted. You put on a great presentation which really brought back some memories. Thank you.
poor girl , she deserved better.
The simple reasons engines and electronics were advancing had a phenomenal rate
The Cheyenne would have been out of date when it entered service and what have been replaced by the Apache
lol. I remember training in 2008 and being told that F35 was coming and we'd be crossing over.
I separated in 2018, never touched an F35.
James Ricker and Tom Sawyer above are idiots. I'm confident no one else share their opinions.
@@jamesricker3997 "Out of date"? To quote Boeing fifty years later: "The block 2 AH-64 does have some similarities with the AH-56". What makes you think Lockheed would not have integrated advances in engine and electronics into the AH-56? U-2 variants and time in inventory, C-130 variants and time in inventory? Sad truth is that Lockheed were the pinnacle of AC design and the others (Bell and Boeing) were the pinnacle of behind closed doors diplomacy. One only needs to look at the amount of aviation firsts Lockheed (and Skunk works) brought to fruition.
One of the truly amazing things that the AH56A did was carry a enormous amount of 30mm ammunition. It could carry 2010 rounds of 30mm and fired at the rate of 400 rounds per minute that is over 5 minutes of non stop 30mm cannon fire.
Or, 5 minutes of “being a highly vulnerable target”
@@SuperDragonstriker Noooo it had an excellent ability to get a lock on a target and then dip down and keep it's target while it manuevered to another position while keeping their lock so they could pop up and hit it with that devastating 30mm ammo that the apache also uses.
If this design had gone mainstream in the '70s, can you imagine the aircraft we'd have now?
"Today we're testing stability of our prototype, we need to shift its centre of gravity to one side. Should we use a bag of sand or Jenkins over there?"
"Well Jenkins did eat all of the donut holes this morning."
5:00
"We need someone to simulate unexpected load changes... Jenkins! Go stand under the hovering prototype and try to pull it down on top of yourself."
"Yes, sir. Can I put on my suit jacket?"
"Of course, wouldn't want you to catch a chill."
Lol I could so see them pulling sticks. William. Jenkins. Who has the smallest stick.
I would never do this to Jenkins
Today: "Get me the request forms I need to fill out to request the forms I need to have a test preformed on a sudden weight shift in the vehicle."
Guy 1: How shall we test the stability of this new technology for this craft?
Guy 2: Let's hang a man on a beam by its side.
Guy 1: Brilliant!
"We need to employ someone to offset the centre of gravity on our new helicopters."
And We Used Krazy Glue to attach this unsuspecting Office Worker to a Helicopter!
I didn't get that either. Why not hang a regular weight or sandbag off the side and get the same test result without risking somebody injuring himself?
@@belliott538 Hi, Phil Swift here for Flex Glue!
Guy2: usually when you offset the centre of gravity of a helicopter, it will crash and explode in a spectacular fashion. Everybody dies! However our engineers think they have solved that problem. Now we need you, guy3, to hang on the side of our new heli to prove this new tech works.
Guy 3: uhhhh oohhhh
Guy2: don’t worry. You get a helmet.
Guy3: allright then, where do you need me to hang?
Very impressive gunship, definitely ahead of its time
I just love the word "gunship" straight sexy 😆
I felt the exact effects of what is described with the rotor problem whilst flying AH 1 helicopters in War Thunder Simulator and Identified the problem immediately. I thought It odd they chose such a poor rotor design... Now I know, thanks :)
Indubiously
Yeah, now the army is studying something similar as its transport helo, with a gunship version being studied as well
Vaporizz
Indubiously? Did you mean Indubitably?
"How do we demonstrate that the craft performs well under aysemmetric loads?"
"IDK dude just have Jimmy dangle off the side of it or something"
Army: This helicopter is incredible! It's so good we won't need fixed wing airplanes for this job anymore!
Air Force: ...What did you just say?
Army: Oh. Oh no...
yes....thats exactly how it went....
You'd still need fast jets. Subsonic aircraft aren't survivable if the enemy has a decent integrated air defense system. In fact, the A-10 eventually suffered from that. Interservice rivalry is a problem though but that can be solved with joint service programs like the JSF. One of the things that give me faith in humanity is that if someone works out an elegant design for a machine to kill people it will eventually be built if you wait long enough.
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When I was an intern in Congress I had a number of involved discussions with well qualified staffers. They said the problem was doctrinal: The Cheyenne was approaching the cost of an fixed wing aircraft but was stuck in the low altitude attack profile that the USAF had recently abandoned as it was considered just too dangerous in the face of massive overlapping Soviet air defense systems. The AH-1 on the other hand was so cheap it could be expended like tanks. Many of the advanced features of the Cheyenne were immature and were not as good as the new digital stuff that was a few years away so the idea was shelved.
A couple hundred for some special forces groups woulda been handy.
You mean, its ok to expend pilots, right?
@@ribbitgoesthedoglastnamehe4681 Do you need a safe place?
@@Les537 Do you need to comment on something that makes you feel insecure, but have nothing smart to say?
One could argue that the US Airforce was right about *procuring* and advocating the A-10 as an adequate response to the assumed _massed armored assault_ through Central Europe by the Soviets.
Vietnam was an asymetric war under arguably _unfourable strategic conditions_ as - paradoxically - only the Viet Minh welcomed a US presence, _if_ it would garantue national sovereignty... That conflict was therefore best avoided rather than 'resupplied' with state of the art equipment.
The 'Black Hawk Down' incident didn't make helicopters under combat conditions more attractive, either...
On the other hand, if the concept of the 'Cheyenne' was evidently 'redundant' to the doctrinal role of fixed aircraft, Russia e.g. wouldn't have adopted the Kamov *KA-52 'Aligator'* as a _long term procurement_ (serial production of around 250 aircrafts beyond 2025) while being under _severe budgetary restrains_ - as in not being able to properly resupply and train crews for well established fixed wing platforms like the gound attack aircraft SU-25 'Frogfoot'.
My father was a test flight engineer on the Cheyenne. He's the co-pilot on a lot of the test flight films and fired the tow missile in the video 15:17. I remember he told me that the Army accused Lockheed of having special sharpshooters because their pilots had had a hard time with the tow missiles and laser guidance. But it was just the Lockheed engineers hitting the targets in Yuma.
My grandma worked for Lockheed in Burbank from Jan ‘43 until the ‘70s. She told me that the Army kept insisting on adding so many features that it just got unaffordable for the times.
It's amazing how advanced this craft was. Seems like something of today with the fold down eye targeting.
This was amazing! It should be in it's 5 generation in the field not a museum.
In 19sixtyfucking7. The test pilot must've felt like a cyborg.
Some things change, but, oh, the greed of powerful companies, that will never change.
"Seems like something of today" seems that you have no idea that "Operational jet fighters with HMD (Mirage F1AZ) were fielded by the South African Air Force. After the South African system had been proven in combat, playing a role in downing Soviet aircraft over Angola, the Soviets embarked on a crash program to counter the technology. As a result, the MiG-29 was fielded in 1985 with an HMD and a high off-boresight weapon (R-73), giving them an advantage in close in maneuvering engagements.
Several nations responded with programs to counter the MiG-29/HMD/R-73 (and later Su-27) combination once its effectiveness was known, principally through access to former East German MiG-29s that were operated by the unified German Air Force. "
You do know that the AH-64 Apache has eye targeting right?
"This helicopter is too good! Cancel it quick!"
-Bureaucrats
Survivability of Cheyenne was poor and the cost was high, so not that much improvement over Cobra in bang for the buck department especially as both fired the same missiles, while firepower & flight endurance combined with survivability was vastly inferior to A10...
Helicopters with the above rotor mounted sensors or ones with multiple engines and heavy armor are much more survivable than ones capable just running into something at high speed and hope for the best with all guns blazing, so I personally would take armed Kiowa Warrior with the above rotor mounted optical targeting sensor or Soviet Mi-24 Hind of later versions any day over Cheyenne...
Pusher rotor on the helicopter has much more value in extending range due to increased speed, but as for survivability, once you are on the battlefield it is just dead weight for a helicopter that try poke from behind mountains and attack from maximum range, you not going to run away from enemy jet fighters anyway and passing through heavily defended airspace at 400km/h near the ground was not very viable even during WW2, hell even Nazi V1 "cruise missiles" flew faster and these things were shot down in thousands. Vietnam era F-111 could do that but it flew and performed attack at more than twice of Cheyenne speed near the ground mostly at night due to advanced avionics for which there was no space in futuristic early 70ties attack helicopter with a fraction of F-111 weight and internal space...
@@IonorReasSpamGenerator Armor and extra engines dont really protect from fighter jets in any noticeable way. If they want you dead, theres not much you can do. However, returning to friendly airspace quick can help a lot, if nothing else, then drawing the enemy in reach. Same goes with the most numerous AA, the twin 20mm. Its accurate but not fast but will shred a chopper in seconds if it hits.
Lastly, middle of Europe is mostly very flat, not much hopes of hiding behind mountains.
I think that while not necessarily a good design, the idea itself is good.
Not bureaucrats, the military.
@@ribbitgoesthedoglastnamehe4681 Dual engines can give you enough time to survive first strike and emergency land safely leaving the helicopter before being finished with the second strike in case of being chased by the enemy jet. It's faster to produce a new helicopter than to train new pilots. Since mid 60ties was in the Soviet Union produced Shilka quad 23mm radar-guided self-propelled short-range AA infamous for its effectiveness against Israeli low flying jets that were trying to avoid missile batteries in Yom Kippur War:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZSU-23-4_Shilka
Helicopter flying at half of the jet fighter speed was completely useless against it especially in flat parts of Europe where you can spot incoming helicopter from long distances. 80ties Apache got radar jamming and early radar warning detection against Shilka while 90ties Longbow variant could attack without exposing itself with radar-guided missiles but Cheyenne options were limited to barely outrange it with guided missiles which would not work if supported by short-range self-propelled missile AA. As everyone pretty much copied the design of Cobra gunship or multipurpose Hind, Cheyenne's concept was simply not seen as a good idea by no one at the time. The main reason why the new Apache concept got pusher propeller is because it needs to cooperate with a much faster new generation of hi-speed transport VTOLS like V-22 Osprey and upcoming Blackhawk replacement likely based on Sikorsky X2 contra-rotating helicopter with pusher propeller...
@@IonorReasSpamGenerator The radar targeting is and never was a very good system, it can be avoided with radar detection, and its slow, that is why experienced crews should avoid using it at all.
This is why I feel that speed and maneuvering are better options, as without the radar the crew can bring down targets faster, with comparable accuracy, while leaving both sides less time to react. A constant low altitude high speed flight will give a window of survivability where the speed can make it possible to be elsewhere before being shot at. Of course this requires very low level flight barely above the trees.
A longbow-variant will likely stop behind something, and just become a sitting target to AA it never even sees.
Ive walked 30-40 meters from a manned cannon, pointed it at people, without them seeing it. That is why relying on radar detection and hiding is a bad idea.
Besides, if the radar is off, its not possible to target it with anti-radar missiles.
Oh 'Murica... best of everything spoiled by petty rivalries.
Thats the entire civilization for you.
You misspelled politicians.
If their wasn’t any rivalry jets wouldn’t have been invented until the 70s, it’s what gives motivation to be better
@@itchypit6413 it's not rivalry, it's lobbying lol.
Huge difference, Boeing is a dogshit company who've been given way to many bailouts when they sink under.
@@apunishedmannamed2473 what exactly is a "dogshit" company?
Inter-service rivalry, more like 5 year olds arguing. The Army says "MINE!!!" then the Air Force, "NO, IT'S MINE!!!!!"
Why don’t that just agree ones with a sertin amount of WEPONS or speed belongs to the Air Force. If it’s recon and escort then it’s army.
@@spacetechempire510
Hell, why not just agree that, if something flies, it's Airforce, if something drives, it's Army, and if something sails it's Navy.
And sure, that'd mean Airforce planes on Navy carriers but they're both US military so I'm sure they can figure it out.
ShadowFalcon true but politics and chain of command. Let’s just say if it is used for scouting or troop transports then air units can belong army.(logistics) if it’s on a Navi ship then Navi (with air force and Navi training)
And everything else like the f-16. And B-52.
@@spacetechempire510
Why can't army units be served by USAF logistical aircraft?
Seems not to be an issue with many other countries.
@theLoKiway447
You can't really chastise the Army for wanting to deploy the weapons platform it requested, funded and agreed to produce. Moronic inter-service rivalries aside, the Air Force was clearly in the wrong here. The Army lost a cutting-edge weapons platform and the taxpayers lost god knows how many millions of dollars because the *widdle Air Fawce fewlt thweatewnd*.
Even the military forgets that it serves the people far too often.
16:30 Damn, Boeing coming up with an A+ homework assignment after copying Lockheed's notes.
Boing pretty much owns Lockheed now. I'm personally pissed that Lockheed lost this design against the Cobra. Helicopter aviation would ve way different today
@@cwb7143 It's a sad thing but if it means saving money the government will always go for the cheaper option even when it has something revolutionary in front of it that could change how we do things, improve things and, ironically, save money in the long run. In this case, as you said, changed how helicopters work today. It would have made copter tech jump decades ahead of it's time.
With LM’s acquisition of Sikorsky, they are back in the hunt on attack choppers.
@@livingcorpse5664 we know there wasn't cheaper solution: Attack Bell Cobra Heli + A10 - much cost (development) and much supply demand (different vehicle).... with different role / different training - crew and supply crew..... - no, its not cheaper at the end
It's basic piracy. they shut down the better design 50 years ago and now shamelessly resurrect it after Lockheed ragequit the chopper business
That swiveling Gunner's seat is 100% Last StarFighter.
Death Blossom confirmed!
I wonder how many ppl actually got the film reference. Was a great movie👍
@LTrain 45 Well, some parts are underrated, and some parts are.... Look, its a work of genius taking a cheesy and corny idea for a film for little children and making it work for adults too. I am amazed, but its a movie about how playing a video game can make you a hero, because, aliens from space are the only way to make it happen, at least before E-sports.
And the whole idea is, "Hey, you play video games in the Arcade? Heres a daydream for you so you dont have to feel like a loser, which you are btw because otherwise we didnt have to see all this trouble for making an awesome movie for overgrown toddlers."
I always feel a mix of wonder and indignation when I think of the movie. Cool stuff in it though.
that's one of my uncle's betamax tapes, great movie.
@@taimpirok7786 My uncle left different kinds of videos when he died. They were very.... educational for a teenager.
As a former USAF weapons Tech (462) and 30+ years supporting Army Aviation including 20 years in testing weapons systems, I can say this is a good video. I’ve heard much of this story many times but it was well presented here with proper terminology and some really good video I hadn’t seen before. Thanks for doing the research and presenting this quality content. 👍
If the Army adapt this, we would have an Orca from Tiberium Wars today.
That what I was thinking
That would have been amazing
Reinforcements have arrived
05:15 - 06:30 Wait a moment... Helicopter - stubby wings - jet engines - high speeds and maneuverability unmatched - difficult to track - rotors almost unneeded for lift once at speed...
That's goddamn AIRWOLF!!! (cue rocking 80s synth opening) :D
They need to bring Airwolf back, that show was the best, i got chills every time i heard that jet engine suck air at frequenzy that made it howl. ua-cam.com/video/EmPs-noACY8/v-deo.html
and the music: u can do it with a orcestra ua-cam.com/video/lsE2X4-9g_s/v-deo.html
@Volks Waggener Maybe so - but it's the closest we're ever going to get in the real world. Airwolf as presented in the show is - let's face it - patently impossible. At least in terms of it's speed and performance. (Ironically in the real world - other aspects of it's design have been surpassed - mainly in the area of computers and sensors. )
I think i saw some documentation about AIrwolf, that mentioned this thing as big inspiration for the series.
The USAF got the A10 - and has spent every waking minute since its introduction trying to kill it.
US airforce: we made a 6th generation plane that can go into orbit. It outclasses everything and can deliver orbit strikes!
US space force: HOL UP 🤚
You gotta nerf it make it preform LIKE SHIT cause we the Space FORCE, MASTER OF THE VACUUM, can slready get to orbit with our shit SLS
Airforce: Space force, I am your father you will respect my authority and listen to me and me only
Army: Air Force don't talk to the Grandchildren like that!!!
Airforce: Shut up dad 🙁
@@paulcarr6388 you mean with their shit unfinished, unproven SLS lol
Us army "bro thats an unfair advantage. Cancel it stat!"
@@jebes909090 That's actually not as wrong as you might think - coming out with a revolutionary weapons system before it's time means you'll prompt your enemy to copy and improve the concept MUCH faster than they would've otherwise and, be facing it shortly. They probably had nightmares of Soviets pouring over the Fulda Gap with something like this in tow. If you can bury it without your enemy realizing the advantage, you might get lucky and delay having to face it yourself; and, if they do deploy something similar, you already have a 95% completed design to roll out. In many ways its stupid but, in others, it makes sense. Especially if you have funding issues. It's sort of a perverse example of the first mover's disadvantage. It's (probably) why you don't see the _really_ high tech stuff flowing out of Area 51 (or whatever, and I don't mean aliens, I mean test beds for advanced concepts - look at the Blackbird and when it came out and imagine what they have now that we don't know about, that isn't routinely used) in normal conflicts. You save that shit for when you need a serious surprise advantage and or the stakes are high. There's historical precedent for developing game changing tech and only maintaining the advantage for a limited period - see the French and their development of smokeless powder and an advanced service rifle in the late 1800s, only to have the concept sneak out and developed better (using your mistakes and heavy financial commitment as a guide for what to avoid) to be used against you.
Sounds like someone from the Apache camp greased some palms, while they were busy making a super attack chopper.
When I was in the army stationed at Aberdeen Proving Ground, I saw one of these museum pieces as part of the large outdoor vehicles display they had. It was the first time I ever heard of the Cheyenne. When I read the sign and leaned just a tiny bit about its capabilities, I was stunned. It far outclassed the Cobra, which is still one of my favorite helicopters of any type, attack or otherwise. We got screwed bad by not getting the Cheyenne. When the Apache finally came out it, looked bloated and overweight even worse than my ex the last time I saw her.
If they had this in 1972, imagine the classified craft they have now. Unreal
You’d be really disappointed seeing as all the technology is focused on stealth.
Dude military is always 12 years ahead of us.
Gray Ghost051 They can’t break the laws of physics. Jet fighters aren’t that much more maneuverable than they were in the 70’s.
@@jeff-gl1yx modern jets can pull 20-30Gs easely. The thing is the pilot cant. The human is the limiting factor nowadays which is why gforce training is so extremely important
Brian van Driel Modern jets can pull 20-30g’s? Are you out of your mind? You’d shear the wings off. The f22 is rated for 9.6g’s.
During my time @ Ft Knox in '71 I saw a black painted attack style helicopter doing a low altitude roll over the base. I was in D Troop of 8/1 Air Cav Squadron and I know it wasn't one of our Cobras, now I know what it was.
5:17 So basically in 1963 Lockheed built Airwolf! Awesome! :D
That’s okay, the Army has been trying to replace the M-16 since they were forced to adopt it. It currently the longest serving small arm in us inventory. The previous record was the 1873 trapdoor Springfield.
The 1873 Springfield was in service for less than 30 years. That’s cute.
The British Army had the Brown Bess musket is service for over 100 years. 1722-1838
@@Mugdorna and yet Enfield arsenal forgot how to design a rifle (sa80) and went about trying to reinvent the wheel.
@@centurian318 even worse. They had to get the Germans to fix it!!!!
@@centurian318 even worse. They had to get the Germans to fix it!!!!
@@Mugdorna BAE purchased HK so they could fix it, well make it work.
The only reason why the HK G-3 exists is because FN Belgium held a grudge against Germany for two invasions in the same century and refused to give them a license to produce the G-1 FAL variant. Thus making them repatriate the former Mauser engineers from Spain and their improved STG-45 cetme.
Interservice rivalry: with friends like these, who needs enemies?
US: *fights between armed services*
USSR: _Flashbacks of inter-bureau rivalry during the Space Race_
Hey, that's our Military! They must feed HEX, always and forever.
Nothing compared to the pure animosity between the Imperial Japanese Navy and the army in WWII.
@@robskalas or the SS and elements of the Wehrmacht.
I thought the managers in my company had ego issues. Good to see the military has the same problems.
So essentially this was Airwolf before the series was on television...
My thoughts exactly when I saw the jet turbine :)
Pretty much.
Blue Thunder
My thoughts exactly. That show was such a big part of my childhood. Even now a sight of a Bell 222 makes my heart beat a little bit faster.
@Mai Mariarti that show had everything a kid could believe in. All the tech was intoxicating. This was back before the personal computer even. I loved it!
this thing is 55 years old and has most of the features you think of in modern helicopters. When the service shows us what they have, its at least 30 years behind what they really have. Pretty cool to think about.
5:19 Now I see where Airwolf got its start.
So, if t weren't for in-fighting, they could have had real life Air-Wolf... In the early 1970's...
Great job there, lobbyists...
Lobbyists are a bunch of middle men that care about lining their pockets with the tears of orphans, rather than protecting families.
Lobbyists seem to be the most useless thing out there. What would happen if we get rid of them?
@@stubbk3 what's wrong with losing the a10? The bronco took over its low intensity job and its regular CAS job has been taken over by better multirole planes
jmalmsten Did you actually believe that was all there was to it?
Halcion Koenig Yeah and the Cheyenne was three times the cost...
I look forward to the tale of the RAH-66 Comanche one day :D
second that!
unknown6656 third that!!
First thing I thought of.
That would definatelly be worth a look. After all it went through to then have the plug pulled on it. Interestingly I have seen some video footage of a new reconnaissance helicopter and it does have definite overtones of the Comanche.
I helped design the avionics for the 66. It was a disappointment when it was cancelled; it had great stealth, and even internal missile bays. But I sorta got the vibe at Rucker that even the boys we were training in the simulators were not that thrilled with it and I don’t know quite why
Liked the " Hanna Barbera " style animation.
They tested them in the late 1960's near Ventura, California when I was a kid. I watched 3 crash in less than a year.
Don't know what you were watching, but it wasn't a Cheyenne. We only had two flying out of Oxnard, and I was flying one of them.
What a beautiful aircraft! It's always sad when things like this are scrapped.
Definitely!
Just think all people this helicopter could have helped to kill all those years :(
Maybe some of those are even still alive.
A shame...
@@gevanlappido1304 Anything can be used to kill. Its all about the beauty of engineering. Military vehicles/airplanes/helicopters are used for both attack and defence.
@@JackieWelles thank you, you see my point.
@David Parry Which is deadlier though, the Cheyenne or Chinese engineering quality?
@@gevanlappido1304
"Just think of all the people who were killed in air crashes. should've never built aircraft in the first place..."
Air Force: It's OUR job to fly fixed wings!
Army: You see the rotors right?"
Air Force: I see the wings... Oh Congress, the Army is cheating again.
Army: FFS. You used to be the Army, you douches!
this is the same story with the osprey. Its neither helicopter or plane and congress couldn't figure who got to buy it
Hahaha! Nice!
Wait until Space Force have orbital gliders.
Space force is going to get F-302s
That's not what happened. The Air Force started inquiries into the CAS issue and discovered that the Army was trying to shut them out. The Army and Air Force chiefs of staff met together and agreed to delineate responsibilities and the Air Force was not opposed to the Army acquiring rotary wing aircraft for "fire support" (aka "we don't call it CAS"), but SecDef McNamara was opposed to expanding the air mobility of the Army.
The Air Force getting pissy is revisionist history, they were the ones worried about the Army's "we don't need the Air Force" attitude from the air mobility supremacists and when it went too far even McNamara, previously on the side of the air mobility expansion, had to shut them down.
This is First Class Aircraft presentation indeed! Great Work Curious Droid 🚀 & Thank You So Much for the Efforts! ♥️🌷🕯
13:16 Bureaucracy and special interest are the exact reasons why Uncle Sam can't have nice things.
"Consistently hitting a 25 centimeter target at 3 km"
Holy SHIT
The USAF seemed to have acted like a spoiled brat in this debacle: complaining of overlap with the A10 yet they seemed to be overeager to retire the latter, needing Congress to intervene.
Of course they did, the Air Force was in its infancy as a military service branch back then :D - they were a teenager, they didn't have the impressive lineage of both the Navy and the Army! So they tried to muscle in, like a younger brother (or sister) does, despite not being wanted by the older siblings...sadly parents often take the side of the younger sibling!
@@dreamingflurry2729 Good metaphor. I'm stealing it from you(s), if you don't mind.
Thats basically all they do.
It would not be the first time the chair force has gotten involved in things it has no idea about that ended killing lots of people.
@@dreamingflurry2729 I find it hilarious how the USAF was insisting that fixed-wing aircraft are their "traditional role" and the Army shouldn't get them, long before the USAF had even existed long enough to *have* traditions.
Excellent video! Not only did i learn about the helicopter itself you also explained the earlier technology prototypes that contributed to it and did a short explanation of the basic technics of helicopter aviation, and what was special about the Cheyenne project. Also it was very interesting to see the "future" of the AH-56 in the form of the updated Apache helicopter.
Amazing content. You explain complex concepts and historical contests in a very interesting way. Instant subscribe!
I'm surprised the concept hasn't been used in any civilian helicopter. Vertical takeoff like any helicopter combined with the speed of a turboprop plane. Air taxis would love that!
There have been similar suggestions, however the noise and the prices usually kill all attempts at transport in urbanised areas
The part where the customers get decapitated by wing vibration might cut down the enthusiasm.
There has been attempt to air taxi's in the past but they got canned over safety issues if there were to many about increasing air collisions with grave concicences to the people below and also very much the noise and turbulence they cause. Donno if ever got close to a chopper taking off but you do fucking notice it to say the least. Those companies got way to much blowback from the people around. You can put them on the top of sky scrapers but then you have to drive to said sky scraper, walk, elevator walk, chopper, land. Elevator down walk drive,... At that point you can just take a cap. Was invisioned a few times but impracticality and rising fuel costs killed it. ( Rightly so i think, bit of the atomic dream in the 50's that everybody will have a nuke powered car they never have to refuel. Sounds great but doesn't quite translate to the hussle and bussle of realistic day to day life and all its unpredictabilities)
VTOL and fast aircraft are two use cases that are not that relevant for civilian traffic.
Civilian helicopter traffic usually runs in urban or populated areas with specific noise abatement and safety rules hence the speed and noise would need to be under some limit.
Fast aircraft becomes more relevant with long distances and for that airplanes are much more efficient and comfortable.
However, there are still very valid use cases, e.g., for rescue helicopters, but that is a small market and politicians being politicians, they like their toys to wage war, not to save lives.
Civilians usually rely on militaries to prove designs work first before they will adopt them.
Looks like an OV-10 Bronco mated with an early gen Cobra.
OV-10 bronco is our ground attack plane here in Philippines. Very outdated :(
@@vincentleviangelomagbojos5241 still does the job though
@@vincentleviangelomagbojos5241 Hey, it still kicks ass
early gen Apache*
@@vincentleviangelomagbojos5241 That's getting replaced by Super Tucano. Actually for CAS, Bronco should do the job just fine, just upgrade the avianoics and weapons system if possible (and not costly). Indeed the platform is old though, but for fighting against terrorist and insurgents, you don't need too fancy hardware.
Never argue with Congress on what a system can do.... Always tell them how much it will save.
A friend of mine was a Cobra gunner in Vietnam, and later was a gunner in the Cheyenne prigram: while the crash of one test ship worried him, he absolutely loved flying in them, and said it was quite the hot rod.
We found out last year that 2 of the 3 ships he flew on, still exist. (one crashed, another was destroyed in a wind tunnel, due to the same problem, and a few are unaccounted for: the rest are in museums)
Be nice to see one fly again...
Who was he. I was one of the pilots at Yuma, did almost all of the missile shots.
I knew almost nothing about helicopters and how they work until this video, you laid it out very well and easy to understand!
Watch videos of the early Bell flights!
I have a model of the AH-56 sitting right here on my desk. It is a marvelous helicopter!
Great video again Paul, still one of my favourite channels
Very interesting, informative, and well produced! Thank you for the content!
I can hear the senator’s and representative’s behind closed door’s now...”I don’t care if it’s better, faster and more lethal...do you have any idea how much power I yield young man?!?”
To expensive
"Wield" is the word.
I was extremely disappointed finding out that this thing never got adopted after having learned about it.
I saw one while I was stationed at Ft. Polk, LA. They have one in their museum. The first thing that popped into my mind was, "What a maintenance nightmare."
My father was the flight test division engineer on the Cheyenne. He had some interesting flights with the pilots where they would fly under bridges. We would receive updates at dinner time. Very sad when the project was cancelled.
It was pretty cool to see footage from one of my DCS tutorials end up in this video! Cheers, and great job
16:12 "Inter service rivalries and the vested interests of well embedded military suppliers" tells the entire story in eight seconds. And this is a story that has been repeated untold numbers of times over the years
What an impressive aircraft, imagine this today
It would be out of date and would have needed replacing well before now. It's also not as tough as an Apache.
Would it have the Airwolf theme song?
@@JohnnyZenith I mean obviously, but it's still an impressive aircraft for the technology they had during the day. Imagine it today with the current technology's.
@@MrScott664 I'd love to see a modern version of that helicopter!
@@MrScott664 I agree, however the FARA program with the Raider-X and the Bell-360 (hopefully Raider-X will win) the Scout attack helicopter role should ideally go to the Raider. The Raider has the pusher prop and two co-axial rotors. A future Apache concept obviously borrows the pusher prop tech.
The Cheyenne was a mighty helicopter indeed.
The Camera on the blades is the coolest view I have ever seen! The new concept chopper at the end of the video had me drooling.
thanks for this show we have one on static display at Ft. Campbell and I never found out why it was dropped.
US Military Logic: Why do two things great with one tool when you could do two things okay with two tools?
Back then, specialization was the name of the game. The US military wanted an aircraft for every job, which is why you had so many aircraft back then.
Do not even for one minute hint that the A10 is not perfect. The brrrrrrt boys will get you!
Stonks!
@@TheTrueAdept Not really, if that was the case they wouldn't have spawned so many 'multi-role' fighters
@@nicholaslee5473 the navy and marines only did that, most of the aircraft being made at the time were USAF, and they were specializing for every mission...
Who thought of Airwolf while this was flying fast across the ground?
I might have paused the video at 6:00 to play the airwolf theme...
Just don't Google 'Jan Michael Vincent' (Stringfellow Hawk) unless you want your childhood memories destroyed.
YES!
Sure did.
@@johno9507 - i did that some years ago to catchup --- oh dear.
Your videos are very enjoyable, thanks for all the information and research!
"We want to see how stable it is if we move the center of gravity."
...
"Guys, just hear me out."
(4:55)
I can remember as a kid reading one of my Dad's Popular Science magazine from 1968 which featured the development of the AH-56 Cheyenne as its cover story. What an amazing aircraft, and too bad the United States Army never adopted the AH-56 . I served in the USAF for over 30 years, but after seeing the capabilities what the Cheyenne had to offer, regardless what branch of the military one served in, that was one badass machine! It would have served America well.
Does anyone remember the AH-66 Comanche attack helicopter that was killed by Congress? I wouldn't mind hearing that story as well.
Curious Droid - you are one of my favorite sites on You Tube to visit. Keep up the excellent work!
I worked on the AH66 mission equipment package and simulators for it at Rucker
I have...let’s say, “complicated” feelings about the Cheyenne. On the one hand, I love the concept and look of it. Even more than that, its performance is still very impressive even 50 years later. I would be lying if I said I didn’t get an evil grin when I realized the Cheyenne could lift about the same weight of ordnance as a B-17, but in a much smaller, faster and *hovering* package. And I’m always saddened to learn about yet another exceptional design that was killed off due to politics and lobbying.
But on the other hand...if the Cheyenne had made it, that likely would’ve been the end for the A-10. And I’ve *loved* the A-10 from the first time I saw one as a kid, way back in the late 90’s. Not to mention that as superb as the Cheyenne was, I doubt that it could weather the kind of beating the “Warthog” can handle.
TL;DR: As disappointed as I am that the Cheyenne never made it into service, its failure was what gave us the A-10. And you’ve got to be a serious nit-picker to claim that the A-10 hasn’t been a success.
Will Rogers the same as a b-17 bomber?!? Damn!!!
Perhaps we could have gotten the Cheyenne instead of the Apache, along with the A-10
The A-10's mission was pretty different from the Cheyenne. The two would've complimented each other nicely.
The AX program that created the A-10 was started specifically to help kill the AH-56.
But relatively limited as compared to a 300 mph helo with 6500lbs of ordnance of all kind. Yes the 30mm on the 10 is amazing but it’s sort of a one show pony. (Yes, 30mm flechette rounds can turn a squad of talib into dog food)
Great video. Thank you for sharing. Greetings from Bedford, UK.
Same reason we got stuck with the OH58 instead of the superior OH6. Thanks a lot, Ladybird Johnson.
Edit: I saw one of these at the Ft Eustis museum.
Wonderful video, Paul!
Maybe you could do one about the Boeing/Sikorsky RAH-66 Comanche stealth helicopter next?
Yes PLEASE!:)
I got to build the mock up at EAA. Apache could carry more firepower than that thing!
The RAH-66 was a disaster.
7:25 Did they really test the new models against real soldiers?? Props to the volunteers!
I highly doubt that. Probably buried explosions.
You get your sentence cut in half if you participate. You might also get your head cut in half.
No, just joking. You still have to serve full time. This is not prison!
Notice the cut between to the scene. Probably (and hopefully) just deceptively edited to make it seems like the heli fired at the troops, while the two event was actually parts of different exercises.
Aid: "Those were brave soldiers, sir. Shall we sound Taps?"
General: "No need, there's plenty more where they came from."
@@ribbitgoesthedoglastnamehe4681 doubleplusgood.
Cracking video! Had my full attention throughout.
Both the Apache & Comanche (never went into production) remain my absolute favorite attack helicopters ❤
This was vey interesting. Never heard of AH-56 before. Very good video.
When I was stationed at Ft Campbell they had one of these bad boys in the museum. I worked on Kiowas and Cobras.
Wow... First time learning of this amazing aircraft, impressive!!
There was one of these sitting out in front of one of the halls at Ft . Rucker years ago. It looked really cool.
That reconnaissance version film had shades of Johnny Quest.
Probably animated by Hanna-Barbara, since they were the single most prolific animation company on the planet from then right up until the 2000's
Damned Air Force, screws the Army every time. Poor zoomies have never forgiven the Army for giving birth to them!
*A-10 has entered the chat*
Loved it whenever i see this video.
2years of knowing this aircraft and still it amazes me.
Great upload many thanks 👍 awesome bit kit for its year.
10:50. Love the Johnny Quest animation.
"Designers added stub wings and jet engines to make it extremely fast"
Stringfellow Hawke entered the chat.
_"The Lady."_
I once volunteered at museum with one, from what I was told they had the Nike name “widow maker” after three fatal crashes
Great video Curious Droid and you indeed covered all of the essential parts about this cancelled gunship. The thought crossed my mind at 10:51 that the AH-56 was initially planned to be used for the Vietnam War until all these unfortunate problems occurred (imagine how much it could have done during the war had it arrived and in large numbers).
If it goes as planned at 16:30 it might be a long lost dream finally achieved but how it'll get through the Air Force lobbyists is another story.
Thank you sir, I never fail to find your productions fascinating!
Amazing! Funny that the prototypes for the next generation of military helicopters actually look like this one!
Well electric car was also invented before petrol car and look what is slowly happening.
They could've saved so much money.
@@deslow7411 Electric cars are still inferior to internal combustion powered cars. Perhaps battery tech will change that in the next decade. Need more energy density and faster power transfer.
@@ozzymandius666
Actually, electric cars are superior in almost every way and range isn't a significant issue anymore. Teslas have 300 to 400 mile ranges, that's plenty enough for 99.9% of use cases. Charging isn't an issue either. First, most of the time you charge at home or work, where you don't care about speed. Second, on road trips you are supposed to take a break every few hours anyway (I'm actually enjoying these forced breaks). Currently the Tesla Model 3 and Model Y can receive 180 miles worth of charge in just 15 minutes in ideal conditions, that's fast enough for almost every case. Infrastructure isn't a big problem either, and even prices are coming down nicely.
In exchange for the price and the small inconveniences you get excellent performance, excellent handling, excellent ride quality, generally a better driving experience than with any gas car, much better safety, much better reliability, much lower cost of ownership, more luggage space, almost silent operation even at full power and many more small things, especially with a Tesla.
Once you go electric, you never look back.
@@andrasbiro3007 **nerd alert**
Seeing this up close is really something. This is a must see helicopter
Keep up the quality, these videos are wonderful
Oh gonna have a good bedtime story this evening!
Ag Historian there’s a channel called bedtime stories which is an awesome channel to listen to. I love them as much as curious droid but that’s a paranormal channel.
Technically, this type of aircraft, with both a rotor and something to provide direct forward thrust, is called a gyrodyne.
"It's all about saving lifes... that's why we are getting the most expensive, cheapest equipment our soldier can afford " ~~actual polish military doctrine today, i see it's not so far off from US doctrine
I once interviewed for a Bell Helicopters job and had a little chat with the senior engineers who interviewed me. We had a little chat about how Lockheed was indefinitely dragging out the development of S97 raider program which is still competing with Bell V220 program just so that they could sell more and more blackhawks before it is retired. It was easy to tell they did NOT like Lockheed Martin.
Can anyone else hear the Airwolf theme tune?
Can't, over the deafening silence of Blue Thunder's blades... :P
You mean, its not Supposed to be there?
Every time I see a Bell 222.
Not really, sing it for us.
@@AttilaAsztalos
That movie really did feature most, if not all, of it's advantages...
I’ll be honest, the Airwolf theme played in my head for this entire video.
Fascinating, thanks for presenting this
"It was ahead of its time" usually means "it was extremely costly to produce and/or maintain". Add interservice rivalry, feature creep (being an observer craft for artillery) and the end was inevitable.