The Evolution Of Factory Tri-Power/Six Pack and Dual Quad Intakes For The Street
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- Опубліковано 11 вер 2024
- It's been obsoleted for street use for over 50 years, but the appeal of Dual Quads and Six Barrel induction systems has never gone away.
Here's a brief history of these intakes, their functional differences and some of their Pros and Cons.
#Holley #Tunnelram #TriPower #SixPack #427/435Vette #J2Olds #PontiacGTO
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My uncle worked for Holley Carburetor in Warren, Michigan from 1951-1970 as a shop foreman before deciding to open a tavern in Pa. When he passed away there were shelves and shelves of new in the box carbs for every setup imaginable, including a bunch of dual quads . My cousin took all of them and used them for a custom hotrod shop he owned in Philly. Thanks for jarring my memory, Uncle Tony!
Awesome 👍
Excellent!! Left the next comment after yours. Was located about 35 miles directly west of Phila in Exton pa.
Love my 6 barrel. That little 350 dead center on the intake gives phenomenal response and great gas mileage.
I always wanted a manifold that had the center carb feeding a low dual plane with a high-rise single plane stacked on and integrated with it so when you hit higher RPM, your four end carb throats are shooting almost straight to the pistons.
Tony, you are a living encyclopedia of American muscle history and knowledge!
These videos should be a standard for those of us who wish to continue the lifestyle and carry on the knowledge.
I'm not sure "tunnel ram" and "good gas mileage" have ever been used in the same sentence until now.
We love ya, Tony. Don't ever change.
I had a Weiand tunnel ram on my 440 poked & stroked to 499cid. Chet Herbert roller cam, Mopar Stage VI aluminum heads. Fed with (2) built Thermoquad 850cfm carbs and a progressive linkage. ....got 17mpg on a good day, if I kept my foot out of it. If I put my foot into it, you could watch the fuel gauge drop and see small birds and low flying aircraft get sucked into the engine. lol
@@knight0334 Lol!
Knight, don't ever change either!
I did some manifold and carbs comparisons on my dyno last summer. I tested a mild 440 featuring E-STREET heads, 9.2-1 compression, MP .528 solid cam, 1-3/4" Doug's headers. The manifolds tested were;
M-1 single plane with Edelbrock 750 carb
Weiand TunnelRam with same 750 Edelbrock carbs
Chrysler ShortRams with the same set of Edelbrock 750 carbs
Results were M-1 455hp&504ftlbs
Weiand TunnelRam 469hp&542 ftlbs
Chrysler ShortRams 429hp&543 ftlbs
The uptake though was that the Shortrams buried both other manifolds with their torque curve. 512 ftlbs@2500rpm and carried 500ftlbs to 4400rpm. They are a killer street induction system.
Jensen did not offer a dual four barrel set up, it offered the "Interceptor SP," a separate model, through it's 73 model year, which is featured the Chrysler 440 six barrel motor, and yes, SP stood for six pack. Here's another interesting Interceptor tid bit for small block fans: later Interceptors used the 360, and Jensen offered a factory installed hemi-head conversion kit for it; I have no idea how many were sold or even produced.
LA Hemi heads.....
The holy grail.
What I'd like is Hemi port arrangement on a Wedge head. Same Wedge headbolt pattern too.
Whatcwould be ideal is if a Hemi intake bolted on this head.
I loved the 440 6 Jensen's. Only seen one
I've seen a brand new marine 440 6 boat by Chrysler in 72 or so in a marina showrom
i learned to speed shift in my buddy's '70 440+6 roadrunner. all stock but for headers if i recall and when that thing opened up it was like warp drive. man did it pull!
GM also used 2 x 4 setups starting with the 56 Corvette on the 265 and carried over on the 283 . Pontiac also had the 421 SD with the baddest ones also using two fours . They were dominating NASCAR in 61 and 62 . Buick also used two fours in the mid 60's on the nail head V8's . Chevrolet used the 850 double pumper on the L88 starting in 67 . It was the largest CFM carb used by GM on any engine at that time .
What happened to Pontiac in nascar ?
I know what happened to Chevy, they had junk engines, but Pontiac had great engines ?
Great content Tony Part history lesson Part performance lesson on duel quads and six packs . You definitely have a talent for breaking it down so people can understand it.
Totally agree, very good content and story telling. Well done T.
Lots of information and lots to look forward to. For me, there’s just magic in a factory multi carburation system, and the early ones usually had elaborate air cleaners too, I love them!
Excellent video. This is by far one of the best explanations of these types of systems that I've seen in many years. Well done as usual Uncle Tony. 👍
So back in the day I worked for a race shop. And we had a 1962 Galaxie 406 tri-power manual as one of the shop cars. We beat on that thing mercilessly and we lightened it as much as we could get away with. It would run 12.95 on a good day a Bay Lands or Half Moon Bay. But tuning it for conditions was not trivial because by the time we got the car it had three center carbs. So running a jetting book was mandatory. We eventually knew all the atmospheric condition/jet combos that would work for the strips we ran. We never went outside the SF Bay Area or the coast. I'll bet we would have gone crazy inland at any altitude ... 🙃
In 69 my step dad bought my mother a brand new GTX Hemi 4 speed and she drove it back and forth to work about 14 miles one way. She never complained about starting it or how it ran or anything like that. If she could do, just about anyone could do it.
Spot on, and a great overview of the history of multi carb induction. It's amazing how far technology has advanced in such a short time, on automobiles overall. The "early days" of trial and error have definitely paid off.
That was some masterful storytelling, just awesome. Thanks Tony!
I know those things are big, but with Tony behind them, and having them closer to the camera, it makes Tony look small, and those things look BIG !
Still looking forward to the how to build a cheap 6pack setup video... uncle Tony your probably tired of me asking, but you're the only one to ever suggest making a video on it.
I love it when Uncle Tony gets into these history/performance theory videos. Even though a well-chosen 4 bbl carb can match or even outperform a multi-carb setup, anyone who has ever owned-driven-worked on a 6 bbl or 2x4 engine (Hemi, anyone?) is familiar with the mystique and aura they exude, how you can so easily feel the power surge under your foot, the brute force in your ears, when they open up.
And if you're an old-time Dodge/Plymouth guy from the 60's/70's, you're no doubt familiar with multi-carb setups; hence, Uncle Tony is the man!
The solder out of the base throttle bores. There are idle needles there. You can adjust the air fuel at idle and smooth them right out. This coming from a 70 6 barrel GTX owner for 40 years. I bought the car in 1982 and have owned it to this day.
The original hot rodders started the multiple carburetor thin in the 1930's with the flathead.
True, but UT was referring to factory installed multi carbs. One he didn't mention, was the 1953 Corvette, with the inline six, sporting three one barrels from the factory.
I've always been a QuadraJet fan.
Tuned properly, it's a good carb.
Stay out of the secondary and your small block V8 can get decent fuel mileage. Properly adjusted linkages on the secondary will produce great performance on the track as well.
Unless your trying to get up there with the 8 second cars, a QuadraJet is a great all around "fire make it happener".
I've always liked Q-jets too. Some people just don't understand them and try to tune them like a typical Holley. You're absolutely correct about their ability to deliver decent fuel economy because of their small primaries but, they also sound great when those huge secondaries start sucking air!
@@MikeBrown-ii3pt love that sound. Especially with a functional hood scoop or something like a shaker intake. Music to the ears. 🎶 👂
I run one on my V6, works great and really woke it up.
I've seen plenty of super stocks leave Wheels up using a Q jet and yes they can get good mileage on the primarys . Great carbs.
Metering rods and secondary cams have to be matched, everyone stuck white springs in them so the scondaries would flop open, which I loved, you stumble, I'm gone!
Great history lesson Uncle Tony! Your a walking encyclopedia of knowledge when it comes to old school horsepower!! Thank you!!!👍
The 1960 ford big engine was the 352 1961 was the 401 HP 390 . 1962 was the 406 .In 1958 the MEL 430 had a tri-power option and was the first American engine with 400 HP
Thank you... For all that information.
That you weren't asked for.....? 🤔
JK.. 😁
57 Chrysler 392 fuel injected?
Ford also had a two 4 barrel 312 and a super charged 312 in 57
@@benwamsley5876 390 HP and they were recalled because the fuel injection was unreliable
@@benwamsley5876 The 392 fell a bit short of 400 , although the torque ratings for both engines are really close . History shows that the 392 had more potential however . : )
Uncle Tony just mentioned one of my favorite cars the Jensen interceptor! If I were to restore one of those I would have Kiwi take care of the body and interior and then Uncle Tony to build and tune the engine!
Don't forget the max wedge 16bbl setup experiments
Thanks Tony, now my brain is on fire from a Carb overload! Great info.....
We have this in the air-cooled VW scene. Nothing sexier than a pair of Italian Weber IDAs under the decklid, although most of the engines that have them should be using smaller, more reliable DCNFs or IDFs.
Just something to add to your note about Smokey Yunicks 850cfm carb... after he created that and Pontiac didn't want it, Chevrolet showed interest in it, and that carb eventually evolved into the 780cfm that Chevy used on the original 396 big blocks, the 425hp in the Corvette and the 375hp in the Chevelle. His 850 didn't die when Pontiac turned it down.
3310 is a pretty dam good performance carb you don't need a double pumper on most street applications.
@@dtiger8317 I agree, especially the original version (3310, 3310-1) that had the secondary metering block and downleg boosters. Best street performance carb Holley ever made IMO. I prefer it over the double pumper, and it can be tuned to run just as fast as a DP the same size at the track too. Awesome carb. I've got one of those early ones, ran great on my old 350 and it'll be used on a 427 I'm building next.
I remember stories about my grandpa talking about his brother in law and his friends out there tuning on the old 6 pack charger Everytime ya turn around. He'd race em with a stock car and beat 'em. Old man was full of shit at times but die hard believer in leaving stuff stock back in the day.
I run a dual quad / tunnel ram set up on an early 392 Chrysler Hemi , in a 33 dodge coupe. Took a bit to adjust. Runs like a bear. Excellent information Tony 👍🏻
Hey there Uncle Tony .. Great subject. you just don't hear many people talking about duel carburetor or triple carburetor engines much anymore . when I was growing we would install duel carbs on different engines to see what kind of cool factor it made .
The greatest challenge seemed to be finding the best intake manifold to go along with the engine build style . and also matching it with the Exuast header design .
Too large of headers and we would lose too much low end torque .
otherwise the tuning mostly came down to proper jetting and ignition timing .
but what also was a great tuning acheavment was just often the simple addition was of a pair of spacer plates under the carburators
spacers would often make one heck of a difference to be the icing on the cake for the entire setup to get the torque curve just right .
Thank you for the video Tony .
Tim from Wisconsin .
True about the spacer plates.
on dual quads, look at it as 8 one barrels, all jets and power valves the same, all throttle plates open at the same time, the open plenum under the carbs ,kinda helps, because no two carbs are alike intake charge is the goal
I have a 66 grand prix 3 speed stick with tri power and a 62 catalina bench seat 4 speed with a rare factory dual quads and your not lying....the sound when you mat the loud pedal of the secondary carbs opening is amazing....and the comments when the hoods open are always great.....but neither here nor there....ive always been of the believe any one can bolt on a single 4 bbl......takes a little more tinkering to get multi carbs to run correctly and they can be tuned for hotter engines with more work of course.......but thats just my opinion for what little its worth....
True. Like bolting on aluminum heads. Any idiot with money can do that.
The High and mighty first tunnel ram ⚒️🥼made of radiator hoses and mailbox plenum 🥼don't forget the trumpet headers. It sounds mad crazy unique
So interesting.
I still can’t find the link to Mary’s ball cream though. .
Uncle Tony: I love this segment on multiple carburetors. On your previous LIVE episodes, I asked about the SBC crossram, which in fact are now intakes made by Offenhauser, and this answered my questions. Thanks again for your presentation of multiple carbs.
This helped me a lot. Im running a pair of edelbrocks on a 364 buick nailhead. Had no idea about running only one choke.
I kinda remember reading that the early tunnel rams were Rochester mechanical fuel injection manifolds with the top modified to take a carburetor? Not sure about the dates but the late fifties or early sixties? GM early dual quads were WCFB carters
The biggest issue with tunnel rams and dual quads were the humans too dumb to tune them. That's what gave them the bad rap.....much like carburetors in total
@@jonathanlawson4667 I'm more against the people who flat out refuse to see their merits..I can see the short comings of a carb. God forbid we point out the Forrest for the trees
Using a Holley on a dual quad, first thing I do is block the power valve. Easier to tune carbs doing that.
I have a boss 302 that's near perfect even compression.
I first tune a carb on that. Then switch them to a dual intake. Then final tune to the dual.
Should do an episode on multicarbs for 6 cylinder and slant. Triple Webber's dual 2barrels dual singles.
Always like 3xSUs on 6 .Gave good performance,not to difficult to tune & looks killer.
Master story teller.
1965: You could get 2 four barrel carbs. 1975: You got one 2 barrel carb and you were lucky if it worked right.
Good stuff Tony, one thing, progressive linkage doesn't work so well on a tunnel ram, works great on a dual plane dual quad or a 360 degree offenhauser dual quad
From the best I can deduce, the first factory dual 4 barrel (dual quad) setup was on the Cadillac Eldorado in 54. Chrysler offered them on the 331 Hemi from '55 onwards and so on..
The Quadrabog wasn't released until 1966
If the QUADRAJET was so awful why did Ford and Chrysler buy so many?
Ever think of using a six pack on your dart? For experimentation of course. Wonder how the Weber downdrafts would work?
I always go for performance rather than show so I’ll take a 4 barrel every time over multiple carbs. Most factory 3 carb setups didn’t perform as well as a decent 4 barrel. Chrysler seems to have designed the only true performance 3 barrel setup. The Pontiac and Big Block Corvette triples were mostly window dressing due to their very low profiles.
I was always drawn more to the triple two barrel than the dual quads. No idea why, they just fascinated me more.
Golden Content … just golden.
To my knowledge Jensen never offered a dual quad setup, however they did make around 230 Interceptor SP cars with the six pack carb setup.
My brother owned one around 1981/2 and I had a '69 GTX with a six pack fitted. Very unusual in the UK for one family to have 2 six pack cars.
The Tunnel ram was first used on the 427 Hi Riser Marine engines .You could buy a 3 2 bbl .carb. setup for the 390 Ford engine a year before the 406 became available .The $427 Tunnel port used 2 4bbl.carbs in the 60's to win on the super speedways as the Hemi was limited to 1 4bbl. carb. The 950 3bbl. Holley was used on Modified Sportsman big block stock cars both Chevy and Ford until the Dominator became available .The 3 bbl was used in drag racing as Grumpy Jenkins took the back halves of 4 3bbl. carbs and joined a pair of each on his Tunnel Ram 1968 Camaro and found it to be a winning combination.
I see that Holley has a new very tall ram manifold. Its called the SkyRam.
skyram 🤣👍
To me the 340 six pack is the ultimate. As far as it being difficult to tune, it’s like anything. If you’re interested in doing the maintenance and tuning, you just learn how to do it. Can you really imagine swapping in a four barrel on an AAR?
The WCFB was Carter's first attempt at a four-barrel carburetor. It was introduced in 1952
HOWdy U-T-G,
Thanks for the MULTIPLE-CARB Video
COOP
...
I owned a 1968 440 Charger RT with a 4 bbl that ran ok. I also owned a 1969 440 GTX that was almost 2 years old and I bought it from the original owner, 4bbl with a Carter Competition AFB that ran great. Also I owned a 1970 Challenger 440 RT/SE with a 4bbl carb. Truly, the 4 barrell seems to have always been the best choice. Example: The 1970 454 Chevelle with 450 HP. A friend and I put a 426 Hemi in his 1967 Dodge Van. It ran extremely well. We used to drive it to North Miami High School in 1971, It ran great, with no problems that I can recall. He also bought a 1966 Hemi Charger from the original owner in about 1974. Amazing car in perfect, as new condition with no engine problems what so ever. I also had a friend with a 1970 440 GTX 6 Pack. Ran great. In 3rd grade, my neighbor owned a 1962 406 Galaxy with 3 two barrels. ran great. He used to take me for rides. I've always been a car guy. Born in 1952. Cold War Baby. Thanks
U said 4bbl was the best choice ran ok.
But u said 6 pack was amazing.
Make up your mind
@@fastinradfordable "Seems to be". Love um both... Duel Quads tooo!
Pearls of wisdom
Owned a 66 hemi charger with a street hemi engine, best street racer I ever had driveable and made lots of street cash in a very drivable car.
Looking forward to the tuning episodes, that ford truck is dialed in, can't wait to see that on a mopar.
The multiple carbs are definitely eye candy
🤤
CAR CULTURE LEADER UTG!!!
👍
I built an intake for an in-line 6 using 3 Carter YFA carbs. It runs really well
What '53 Corvette had...
@@BuzzLOLOL I didn’t know that
@@161Sheriff - Those sidewise carbs were also used on marine V8's to keep the engine height down... possibly the ones also used on '62 and '63 Olds Jetfire...
ua-cam.com/video/iieDedNEYuI/v-deo.html
Pure gold here.
There was Chrysler marine called" the Mover 440 6" available around 72 in local boat yards
Ford's duel four barrel set up on the 427's are very smooth, make good power and run great....you don't know it's there until you put your foot in it.
True. I have a Tunnel Wedge on a 427 with 600 marine Holley's. Idles great. Drives great with an automatic.
I had the same marine setup on my 67 f100.427. Orig owner owned a marina put the motor in and only used it in the property and to pull boats up ramps 500ft. It whole life. I street raced it in 80s.
Outstanding video Tony,Thank you
Look forward to this one!
Very informative but some of the information is incorrect, or I misunderstood. I have a 66 Pontiac tripower that is adjusted from the center carb. The outer carbs are dumps i.e. when you floor it they open up and dump air and fuel and you don't adjust idling with the outer carbs.They are also mechanical, there is no vacuum control secondaries. It is possible that they were modified to be mechanical but I've had this tripower since 79 and I don't think it was? I've seen vacuum secondary tripowers and they have a tube coming from the manifold to supply the vacuum. Mine does not have the vacuum tube access like those I have seen.
I have heard from many people that a properly selected intake and carb will net better performance than multiple carbs. I suspect this is true but I did read where, I believe it was Cliff Ruggles, setup a quadrajet and dialed it in on a Pontiac. After several runs they swapped the single 4 barrel setup for a tripower. Without even dialing in the tripower the car performed better with the tripower. Were they using the wrong intake, too small of carb??? I don't know but I do know you'll have a hard time finding someone better than Cliff to tune your quadrajet.
I had a new set of triples on my 302 ford with a c7fx cam which is a radical solid lifter can.
Quick Fuel has carburetors that are designated "front" and "rear" for dual-quad applications. Two of them are Slayer 450s, how many others there are I don't know.
Remember talking to a guy that had a new Street Hemi back in the day. Of course in my young mind I was shocked when he said it was the biggest POS he'd ever owned, for a daily driver. He dumped it pretty fast for a 440 car if I remember right.
Living on the frozen tundra I've come to appreciate functional exhaust cross overs. Obviously not for a race car! But on things you actually start up bellow zero and drive. You figure you out why they've been putting exhaust heat to intake manifolds for about a hundred years. Predates any thought of emissions.
Really good info "again" Unk.
I loved my 6pack. Gave excellent miliage, good drivability, and after using an over centered spring on the outboard linkage, gobs of seamless power. My 340 was a lot stronger than when I was running a 850 thermo quad. I'm thinking that those big outboards being almost directly over the siamesed ports doesn't hurt either
but they weren't, technically, right over the ports. It's a 180 degree manifold, not a single-plane.
@@exploranator True, but it's a straighter shot to the port than for a centered carb
@@oops1952 Ah, yes, the art of convincing the fuel droplets that the four center cylinders are not the only one in existence on a single-plane four-barrel. That is the one beef I have with the single-four on a single-plane, but with enough art work, mixture distribution can be made pretty consistent. I have seen actual fences welded into the bottom of the plenum to guide the fuel more to the outer cylinders. It's part of the fun more than soulless EFI, yes?
@@exploranator I never owned a single-plane. I never got around to running at the track either. Bottom end was more important to me and I never found anything to launch harder than the 6pack. More of a sleeper/street thing went on here. I had a '64 valiant with a 340 powertrain. It was a lot of fun for a grocery-getter. Never could get my head around a toy car
@@oops1952 Weiand had a single -plane that did both. Big plenum evidently helped. Magazine testers were surprised.
You need adjustable jet plates with jets in them like a qft plate on the outboard carbs on a 6 pack if you are using them on a stroker engine, my buddy melted his pistons in his 511 way too lean when the outboard carbs come in.
I love the intake going on Al's car but with the fender well exit headers a long ram intake would look killer
The Mr Norms 6pk used the Ford Air cleaner assy.
The '51 and '52 Buick's offered a four barrel carb on the 320 straight eights. (Cater and Stromberg)
Also, 1941 Buick's had dual two barrel carbs. (Source: Hometown Buick and Motor Trend)
Very cool stuff, imagine having an E49 Charger Weber setup explained in that kind of detail...
I think tony ment the 61 m code 401 hp 390. The 406 didn’t come out till 62 but could also be ordered with a tri power set up (G code)
Who’s going to argue with a guy who’s handle is “The FE Guy”!
To adjust the idle on the 6 Pack outboards you take the
Lovely lecture Tony.
A properly done single carb can work amazingly but like you said UTG nothing screams hotrod more than a tunnel ram or 6 pack!
A roots blower with a bird catcher literally screams Hot Rod. In fact, the main induction types I figure are the Hot Rod ones (that I like) are:
Single Dominator on an M1 on B1 heads, where you can see the intake port from the carb flange.
Tunnel ram Wedge RB with dual Dominators.
Blown First-Gen Hemi with a bird catcher.
Six Pak on an RB.
Can-Am-flavored Wedge with eight injector stacks on a constant-flow or timed Enderle or Hilborn injector setup.
Webers and Strombergs are not in my performance universe.
THANKS UNK👍👍
GREAT STUFF JUST LIKE ALWAYS
Good lesson teach.
i have a 68 440 tripower but it is a pain in the ass same with the dual quad setup i had on my 68 mustang cobra but i sold that, for a street rig i would stick to a single carb way less problems. the mustang would smoke the charger in the 1/4 mile but the mustang weight is way less and the 428 ran hard both are a 100% stock . but i got a hell of a deal on both of them i got the 68 charger for 500 bucks still has good factory paint nice and clean just had to put a tune up on it the cobra i had a little over 15,000 in it restoring it i got the charger in 81 got the cobra in 96 won it in a race with a 327 was not racing it just was in the bet money against a car . the only reason i sold the cobra was i could get a new shop and have vmoney to put into more rigs which is going in this summer with 2 lifts and later a paint booth
I think they're all cool but waiting for somebody to put dual thermoquads on a tunnel ram 😎💪
Good idea.
What just a great great video !!
I'm gonna get one of those Ferrari Webers to run on my stovebolt.. ..
I joke. But I do seriously want a Tri-Power Manifold when I build a small block for my pickup. I have 1/3 or the carbs already
The first 4 barrel was carter wcfb
I’ve never had any problems with my dual Edelbrock 500s over 6000 miles and 14 years, uses a progressive linkage , gets around 12 mpg when cruising, on top of a 406 with 4:11s and gear vendors overdrive
Ford didn't call their three carb set up tri power......it was called the 6V system....V for Venturi's.
Can you teach us how to install then tune the 6 pack?
You were really funny last night Tony I wish I could see you sometime
Wasn't he though? And don't forget Uncle Kathy she was cracking off some good ones too 😂 That live was great!
Very interesting and well presented.
Word of the day kids Sewer! 🤣
... it would be neat af to see UTG goes MODERN! with these kinds of intakes. Like wouldn't that make it easier for tuning if those carbs were swapped with throttle bodies and toss Ignition functions to the processor and **poof** easy tune -ish. although the initial costs are a lot higher, the time saved in tuning might be worthwhile?
...
though it's kinda like seeing a "Mr. Fusion" ona Delorean, like Wires'n'Sensors ona '60s or 70s funtimes ride. heh, whatevah!
Hey uncle Tony what’s your thoughts on a tri-power carb setup on a tunnel ram big block Chevy?
Wow very interesting!
Tri-power was the first multiple carburetion.
Wait? Hudson twin-h , Corvette straight six, and the long ram intake?!
Great video Tony 👍
Great Video
And I'm sitting here with a single barrel Autolite 1100 with a throttle plate the size of a quarter.