Titrating the eBay Ozone Generator (Ozone Ep2)
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- Опубліковано 1 гру 2018
- The 3g/h ozone tube works, but how much ozone does it actually make? And how do I use it without manually pumping it using my lungs?
The ozone generator is titrated using iodide/thiosulfate. But if we can't even trust the Chinese eBay generator, can we even trust the Chinese eBay chemicals??
/ explosions_fire
/ explosionsandfire - Наука та технологія
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Perhaps you need to include a gas dessicator after the O2 generator, to improve yields when you're using pure oxygen?
@Anonymous Anonymous Probably just salt. Taste it!
You can get much higher yield of ozone through this reaction:
3 (NH4)2S2O8 + 6 HNO3 + 3 H2O -> 6 NH4NO3 + 6 H2SO4 + O3
Or you can add barium peroxide to concentrated H2SO4 on ice bath. It will generate enough ozone to oxidize anything as well.
use a peristaltic pump
Accidentally gets shipped a bag of cocaine. “I don’t bloody know what it is”
14:50 : Seems like an aquarium air pump would be a better choice: they're piston pumps (flexible rubber piston actuated by a magnet and a coil), they have lower throughput volumes, but can handle much greater pressure difference between input and output than that centrifugal pump you're using. So, you could bubble through a much deeper water column (that's what they're designed for). They're pretty cheap too, about $15-20 for a rena one. And a great deal quieter!
Also, since your generator is a corona discharge one, you should beware of nitrogen oxides in your output, they might ruin some reactions. You should be able to easily scrub them out by bubbling the output gas in some NaOH solution.
So, making some ozonides next? ^^
Don't melt your lungs! (To be honest, I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of that sort of equipment running out of a fumehood... Ozone exposure, wether acute, or chronic exposure to ppm levels, is a serious hazard. There''s quite the abundance of literature on the topic!)
A fish tank pump would be a better choice, the ozone proof tubing is also available from aquatic suppliers.
Both are designed for continuous use at a reasonable pressure. The pumps can be purchased to pump air into ponds at a depth of several metres.
@@nigeljohnson9820 That's what I'm saying. "aquarium" = "fish tank"
But I didn't know ozone-proof tubing was available from aquatic suppliers. Do you have any link for that?
@@piranha031091 no I bought my supply from a local shop. It is blue in colour and very flexible. May be worth looking on Amazon.
The system was designed to clean and sterilise pond water as it passed through a large filter. It can also be used to disinfect fish tanks as an alternative to potassium permanganate.
A friend of mine, lives on a boat and collects rain water. He uses a combination of sand filter and ozone generator to make the water drinkable.
Sodium thiosulfate was once sold as a fixer for black and white wet photography. It is also an alternative ingredient in the polysulphide explosive experiment.
So good news, I've bought a variable speed aquarium pump. I didn't know much about the different types of pumps but it makes sense now. I think we sacrifice a bit of flow rate for the ability to submerge the output much deeper in the solution (line pressure I'll call it) but that's a good trade off, I think we come out on top
Also yes, you make a good point about the toxicity. I think my next goal while I wait for the new pump is to try and package the system up so I can take it outside easily
Can you make a video on how to identify unknown chemicals? In this case you have the perfect specimen!
This is a great idea. Think he did this with a solution he found containing iodine, but yeah, i like those types of videos
Identifying unknown chemicals is literally my job
@@AlphaFoxtrottMike Good to know :-P
@@AlphaFoxtrottMike and i sont think he means using GCMS, which i have a feeling you have easy access too if thats your job :-P
J H I have GCMS, FTIR, Raman, draeger tubes, and various test kits to record ph, ki, burn test and smoke produced, and a whole box full of reagents that react in predictable color changes depending on what elements are present
Learn electronics, it's very handy !
Also a video on identifing that unknown fake chemical should be fun...
quick tip, it is difficult to measure temperature of shiny things (stick a piece of black tape)
Whenever my electronics are overheating, I just submerge them in a bucket of milk
Interesting. I usually lick them to cool them down
Lol fuckk g lol
Beloved Quessia Rissanen difficult comment
The mist fans work better.
I don't understand a thing you're doing but the pure unadulterated glee with which you're doing it makes me smile. :)
Excellent deduction to figure out why yields were so low. Working this logically with clearly labeled measurement recordings really helped. I enjoyed this. Congrats on getting O3 out of the device and knowing how much.
just watching you write on the chalkboard gives me shivers
3 grams per hour. Just like a prius can go 120 miles per hour, if you throw it out of the back of a plane!
Correct!
124.4343454 but whos arguing
aquarium pumps
cheap designed, for working under water pressures and continuous use
I think that is a much better option
Speaking of aquarium gear, I would suggest using an airstone (micro-porous) to bubble the ozone, creating much smaller bubbles and therefore greater surface area of the ozone to react.
@@ExtractionsAndIre @thumbsucker29 My first thought as well, sorta. Ya gotta get that mass transfer, buddy! Especially with warm temps and open air vessel, you're getting very little O3 to dissolve. Try this on a microscale or maybe even in flow along with really efficient sparging like with the airstone or even try sonication in a closed vessel (but watch the pressure) and you'll get far better results.
Also, since this was 2 years ago, I've seen these newer-looking ceramic plate devices that claim an even higher yield. I have seen these malfunction of course (poor connectivity through out the plate, sparks fly) but if they're better than this device, might be worth a try.
As a network and security tech I fully appreciate your respect for labeling, and accuracy. Those are two very important things when you are responsible for the design, installation, testing, verification, training, and service of, a 2000 cable building. 👍 Always take care of the next guy, it's likely gonna be you!
No No No, always keep your labeling as vague and secretive as possible. Keep all your notes private and to yourself. That way you KNOW the next guy will be you, nobody else can figure it out.. Job Security! (otherwise you set up a lovely system only to be shafted out for the peanuts/hour monkey that can follow your system.)
@@74KU and you're the reason people distrust contractors, thanks.
I've just started watching this channel and I love it but this lab setup is giving me anxiety. The mess....
You're not wrong... it gives me anxiety tooo...
Hehe, I was literally only last night wondering when your next video would appear - after watching Nurd Rage's epic update.
The Windows startup sound was hilarious for some reason.
I'm looking forward to the "Identifying a Mystery Chemical" video already :D Watching your troubleshooting has been very helpful.
I used to be an electronics technician attached to a university chemistry department. Did some interesting work, saw some weird gear broken and made some interesting gear for out academics. The one that sticks in my mind having seen your PTFE tubing was some PTFE insulated cabling for a light fixture in a fume hood. Non-reactive, but very shit to work with.
If you want to get good effect of the ozone generator there is many parameters to consider.
You want the ozone to dissolve into the water as much as possible and bubbling large bubbles through the solution is not a good way.
As small bubbles as possible to increase contact area is best.
One of the most important factors is the solubility of ozone into the water. Ozone Solubility is dependent upon the temperature of water, concentration of ozone gas, and pressure of water.
When ozone is dissolved in a liquid, Henry's law determines how much of the ozone is actually taken up in the water.
Therefore a saturation ratio must be determined (volume of gas dissolved / volume of liquid). Based on the saturation ratio of ozone the solubility of ozone can be expressed as the following:
CL = CG x S x P
where:
CL = dissolved concentration in liquid (mg/l)
CG = gas concentration (g/m3)
S = bunsen coefficient (solubility ratio), temperature dependent
P = gas pressure (in atmospheres)
Ozone solubility in water is highly temperature dependent. If the water is 40°C only 10% of the ozone can be taken up in the water.
At 20°C 24% of the ozone can be taken up and at water temp of 0°C 64% of the ozone can be taken up in the water.
This highly affects the outcome of a ozonolysis or titrating experiment.
The input concentration of the ozone and the water pressure are also factors that have high impact on the results.
Look here for some facts about this:
www.oxidationtech.com/ozone/solubility.html
Ozone generators are used on pools and spas a lot.... Marketed at being a good sanitizer for the water. Totally worth it
Hey! Something that is really important when measuring the temp with a IR reader is that you need to adjust the EMS calibration pretty significantly when measuring stainless steel. When I measure hot stainless with my IR reader, it tends to be ~30-40C (60C vs 100C true) lower than what it really is, if the EMS value isn't adjusted
2:15 6mm internal diameter transparent PTFE tubes are actually rather easy to bend. Problem is chemistry glassware usually wants 8mm inner diameter tubes which are almost rigid, BUT, a 8mm tube is normally the perfect size to fit a 6mm tube which has a 8mm outer diameter. It is a hell to fit the 8mm ID tubes to glassware but once you've done it once they will keep the shape more or less. So you can use small chunks of the big tube to make adapters for the small one and design the setup you need. When a connection doesn't seem secure enough, use a hose clamp to tighten it. You can make pretty useful and safe PTFE tubing networks this way.
scientific process in action...so satisfying. I could watch all day.
Is it possible that your air flow was too high for the O3 generator and you didn't have sufficient residence time in the generator to produce the as advertised amount of O3? I was always taught to use a drying tube or bottled air for 03 generators. I have used them in chemilumenescent analyzers and also had one on my saltwater reef tank.
TLFDI, totally legit five dollar iodide, I think that is a great acronym and phrase, and am going to use it.
I want to guess it’s KCl, but maybe try a flame test on the unknown to figure out the cation and maybe try the silver nitrate test to see if it’s chlorine as the anion?
My guess is that it is NaCl lol
But yeah good tests
Extractions&Ire I can’t think of anything else it might be that sells for that cheap so it’s probably one of the two but I’m not thinking very hard right now
All good chemistry starts with a taste test. Try it and let us know if you live :)
@@ExtractionsAndIre I bought from the same listing as you and it's NaCl
Have a look on eBay for an aquarium CO2 diffuser. Really good for making small bubbles for high surface area. The glass and ceramic disc ones should be reasonably chemical resistant too?
Nice informative videos.
How efficiently is the ozone being desolved in the solution? Might be worth using a fish tank air stone to produce much smaller bubbles. It might be worth putting the air outlet under deeper water, say in a measuring cylinder.
What is the relationship between air flow and ozone gas generation?
Does the heating of the apparatus decompose the ozone?
Would love to see you use this to produce gyloxylic acid from maleic acid for example. Just remember you won’t get a 2:1 molar excess of product. The molozonide intermediate breaks down into formic acid, CO2, and only ONE mole of glyoxylic acid. But as a demonstrator reaction it has the added advantage of being gas forming with a very favored product equilibrium. The water and formic acid can be distilled out under moderate vacuum around 50C and the gyloxylic acid will form a goo that will eventually crystallize.
Aquarium bubling stones can be usefull for stuff like that. They make lots of very tiny bubles with lot more surface area. A lot more gas should be absorbed with many tiny bubles that low amount of huge bubles. A tip for the future.
Did you account for the various oxides of nitrogen that would also be generated since you were just using regular air? Would they not have affected the reaction or final yield rate at all?
The starch is actually the indicator for I3(-) which is in an equilibrium with I(-)+I2
Big bubbles = low surface/volume ratio; much of your O3 escaped to atmosphere without reacting. Consider a diffuser stone for gas/liquid interactions. (Stone is ceramic, but connector hose will suffer damage.)
I know I'm rather late to this, but I just wanted to share my thoughts. For the glass tube that is in the cup maybe you could add a few holes to percolate the air and disperse it better so that the size of the air bubbles is smaller leading to more surface area and therefore more contact with the solution. The other thought I had was that you could add like a humidity scrubber to the front of the pump so that it can better dry out the air. Calcium Carbonate is pretty good at absorbing moisture if I'm correct, although I wouldn't be too sure my knowledge of chemistry is rather weak.
Iodate formation being a problem makes alot of sense actually, nitrate can oxidise iodine up to iodate (most abundant form of iodine in mineral deposits is as iodate in Chilean saltpetre mines)
Have you considered a higher input flow rate (better pump / pressure / piping) to potentially allow a greater ozone production?
While working with this setup have you ever experienced the effect of the Ozone? It's supposed to give terrible terrible headache even at very low concentrations.
hey an important detail to note in your titrations is that not all the ozone is reacting, making your numbers somewhat smaller than what is actually produced.
What music is it at 16:54 - 17:30 ?
Great video by the way :D
A thought:
19:28 You said that since the 3 g/h was for pure O2, a factor of 0.21 would represent using standard atmosphere as the reagent gas...
O3 formation using coronal discharge is based on ionising O2, and hoping that the products collide in a way that O3 is formed. However if N2 is present, N2O, NO & NO2 are possible byproducts. Would the O2 generation rate decrease as a function of the probability that each ion collides & interacts with nitrogen instead of oxygen?
What about a diffuser at the end of the ozone hose? Say like a fish tank air stone, to maximise the amount of bubbles therefore surface area of ozone in your solution?
Great video!
also while on the topic of making gasious oxidizers from air using high voltage... have you considerd making a birkeland eyde reactor for nitirc acid? i know you make it using pool chemicals and nitrates but it would certainly be a cool video.
I was considering it but... Did you know that ozone can oxidise ammonia to nitrate directly?? That sounds even cooler to me, and one of the aims of this project
The air should be anhydrous (no water) been there did that i used a drier. Pure O2 also helps.
Misread the title as "Trinitrating the eBay Ozone Generator"
Ah man this must have been a let down. Great video but if you compare it to your expectations it is pale in comparison
Imagine that every crystalline solid chem thats OTC just comes in 1 large crystal of a specified weight and if you need a certain amount you just have to shave it from the crystal. Would be a hassle but at least your working with relatively pure chems.
Nice video. You could try this pump, I have one "VIVOSUN Air Pump 950 GPH 32W 60L/min" and maybe a tig welding flow regular. Thinking about it now the regulator my bog down the pump.
Did you ever work out what the mystery chem was?
You should also try to put a drying tube filled with anhydrous CaCl2 road salt or silica gel kitty litter between your pump and the ozone generator to dry the air. That could greatly increase the amount of O3 generated if we go on your findings
They have silica gel desiccant too, it's a little a little cheaper depending on where you buy it and it seems to work better for me than kitty litter. Also, I found out you can regenerate it in the microwave which is neat.
Infrared thermometer pointed at shiny metal pipe, much ire!
Can't periodate also form? Would periodate also form iodine upon acidification?
What sort of chemistry are you planning to do with the ozone generator?
Is the O3 generator designed to operate at higher pressure maybe? Higher O2 partial pressure, higher O3 yield?
What would happen if you modified the pump s air in socket with some dessicant silica filter
Go to bunnings and get LPG hose. Tools or BBQ section. Australian standard dictates that lpg hose must be Teflon lined so the propane can't permeate through the rubber wall. Much cheaper
i believe silicone tubing would work and be cheaper than the viton. I've never used viton for anything but o-rings.
get an aquarium air stone to make smaller bubbles. since you now have an aquarium pump you can even use a bubble rod and you will get thousands of tiny bubbles.
You should have put a diffuser on the end of the hose to make bubbles tinier.
How did you manage to accurately measure the temperature of the electrode assembly by pointing the thermometer at the reflective, metallic housing? Is it some kind of high IR emissivity alloy?
Also, keep in mind that longer runs will tend to produce lower total Ozone concentrations, since the Ozone production process is less efficient at higher temperatures, whilst the Ozone decay process gets sped up at higher temperatures as well.
Just make sure to keep these things in mind with those cheap Ozone kits:
The electrodes are usually only coated very thinly in Platinum, or (extremely depressingly) not even coated in Platinum at all. (Proper Ozone generators use either Platinum-Iridium alloy electrodes or don't expose the electrodes to the gas stream at all, by insulating them with glass from the air.) If this is the case, you will have some unknown metal contamination in your reactions, which you need to keep in mind.
Generating Ozone with electrical discharges in air, generates significant quantities of Nitrogen Oxides. Keep any side reactions this (and the respectively formed acids) may cause in mind.
Usually, some of the materials in the Ozone stream aren't actually Ozone resistant and can generate gaseous and/or particulate breakdown products.
The usual things they like to use, to look out for, include PVC, Polyesters (yes, really), Leaded Bronzes and Brasses, and also Galvanized Steel fittings and fasteners.
"How did you manage to accurately measure the temperature of the electrode assembly by pointing the thermometer at the reflective, metallic housing?"
He simply didnt. Hes measuring whatever temperature the surrounding is at.
gotta love teflon tayp
1:10 just like me when I just started working with my first voltage regulator for a bathroom ventilator to power my first weed growing operation.. Awww
1:10 1:15 ooowwwhhh ...that's beautiful ! haha been there, it's the small things in life. Good times out in the shop
The technical term for that fan/pump is a “horn”.
Let's see the oxydation of piperine to piperonal via ozone
could you use a wider water container so there is more volume for the gas to bubble through, maybe have a submerged watch glass to make the bubbles stay in the solution longer while being stirred too
That's a cool suggestion, id have to try and not smash that watch glass with the stirring too tho
Simply Use the UVC lamp methode to produce O3 u will get more yield compared with the spark gap
I def would like to make an ozone generator as well!.... Absolutely _no_ idea what I would use it for... but its just a cool project. I like messing with Arduino and Raspberry Pi though, so I would nerd/tech the shit out of it.
The last time I tried to buy it back in 2011, potassium iodide was super expensive (about A$50 /100g). Good to hear it's come down, I've been meaning to get some more
Never mind, I just watched the rest of the video lol. Thought something was strange with that.
Yeah your suspicions were better than mine were!
Also good to see you around! Haven't heard from you in a while
They use o3 generators in some hot tubs because of the anti microbial properties apparently.
As someone who once has seen an ozone generator and done KI titrations, why first thoughts were Why is the gas going through ozonator not dry and compressed. Second thought was why no acidification with 6M Acetic acid for titration. They were quelled by the 19 minute mark but shabby work
is there a video on the unknown chemical?
Aquarium air pump and a CO2 diffuser will make a huge difference for percentage of reacted ozone
I've bought a similar Chinese ozone generator that claimed 7g/h. I can easily smell the ozone and the purple glow is nice too, btu I don't think it really is 7g/h. Would like to titrate, both using air and pure oxygen. PVC is pretty inert to ozone btw (to enclose the generator) BTW the tube (should) gets quite warm from the silent discharge.
(ignore) Other product formed, decreased the rate of intended production, also think about gas escaping and maintain pressure gradient for movement, used indicator, PLUS added acid to neutralise the product formed
When supplied with air, these discharge tube produces NOx(nitrogen oxides).
Are you aware that category of scale tends to under-measure for slow (especially dropwise) additions? I've owned several scales that are visually identical to that, and I need to make my additions off the scale then measure.
I'll keep that in mind, thanks!
Ran it without flow, and then blew his humid breath through it when he got it - probably the sharp electrode inside isn't so sharp any more.
Try pulling it apart perhaps? Is there any corrosion inside?
Use a glas frit to get a better transfer from gas to solution.
you should have used a long cylinder to give the ozone more room to travel trough the solution. If you use this big cup there is not much way to travel for the ozone and it wont react much with the sulution. But thanks for the interesting measurement anyway. I believe it doesnt produce nearly what is advertised.
If you don’t do some ozonolysis me and my old ochem professors will be very disappointed in you. I’d also be super interested to see you put a living, potted plant in an environment where it is exposed to the ozone either acutely or chronically.
Interesting about the plant idea... But is there any substrate in particular you want me to do ozonolysis on??
@@ExtractionsAndIre I really don't care. I'm sure you'll think of something interesting
Lots of aquarium pumps?
air stone?
That's some suspiciously unknown white powder.
The amount of JANK in doing this in empty soda bottles hahaha
If the air pump conks out, there's always a balloon on a tube. That would have a higher O2 content then what you exhale.
Bike pump as well
70 degrees on the power supply is no big deal. As long as it stays below 100C or so, it'll be fine. Most semiconductors will self-regulate or shut off when they reach 120 degrees.
It's been 3 years, but maybe you still haven't remembered the term. It's "orders of magnitude"
Potassium iodide on sale?
yeah science!
did you ever figure out what that chemical was?
Can you try a slower flow rate too? It may produce less pressure and mass but the concentration of ozone may be higher
Edit: air intake througe sodium hydroxide?
So, keep failing till science works? Okay that checks out.
Is that a bullet hole in the chalk board?
I would have maybe a ditch the air pump and went with electrolysis sealed container or better yet membrane style and use the pure oxygen it's generated to flow through the ozone generator.
For this measurement to work you really should use 100% O2 on the input...
Try this: Replace air blower with fishtank pump, load bubbler stones on the end of the hose going into the test solution, next... As a minimum, dry the air first going into the pump (ive noticed most don't have clearly defined inputs, so that may be a challenge), dry using silica gel or one of the suggestions in comments. Finally, to measure side reactions and ensure NOx is not being produced (which wastes efficiency), run the output through water or dilute base (NaOH for example, dilute) - measure the pH or titrate it. NO will produce HNO2, NO2 will produce HNO3, both are showing the generator needs O2 input as the N2 is participating in the reaction and lowering output. There also may be a rating on the tube for how much O2/min is supposed to flow into it to give you optimum (3g/h) out. Finally, you can check pretty easily if you are losing O3 from your solutions, just have a (gentle) sniff. If you pulled out all the NOx, you should be left with N2, O2 and O3 - your nose detects it easily in very low concentrations.
I'd suggest a better approach then even that above would be to buy a cylinder of O2 (compressed) which is readily available for welding/brazing in home improvement stores, fashion an attachment to the (reversed) threads to get at the O2 output. Feed your now pure, dry O2 using a valve to limit the flow rate into your O2 generator. You can now skip the drying stage, pump, water/base stage to remove NOx, and can drop it right from the O2 generator into a hose will bubbling stone into your iodine test solution. Done.
I just saw part 3 (didn't know it existed) - covered most of this, but I still think even after seeing part 3: the water column was too short AND the flow rate too high - what little O2 turned to O3 probably a large part didn't react (that would explain 2g out of 3g disappearing when using O2 cylinder). The proper O2 cylinder is the more professional version of what I suggested with the oxygen brazing torch unit (well done). If using air, I still think the numbers are being confused by the added NOx reactions (which probably react with your iodine setup as well), oxidizing it and throwing off your numbers to make them HIGHER than they should be.
Could we launch these into the atmosphere? Would they do anything?
lol, you have a packet of unknown white xtals, better make sure you were not accidentally supplied with bath salts
Also, if you can get some old busted blood pressure monitor (the type that automatically inflates and measures the blood pressure on your wrist or arm), it has a diaphragm pump that can create quite a bit of pressure. Not great, but you might be able to get one for free.
PS: might not actually be a true diaphragm pump
we could only hope for free bath salts
I know I'm 1 year late, but couldn't you have weighed a known amount of thiosulphate and mixed it with starch and iodide? That way you can turn on the ozone generator and see how much time it takes to burn through all the thiosulphate (when it turns blue) and get a good reading of the actual ozone output without much actual work. I know, sodium thiosulphate isn't exactly a good primary standard, but with +-.01g accuracy on your scale I guess that wouldn't make that much of a difference. You could also bubble the tail gas through another solution of iodine and starch to see if there's any ozone left in it.
Maybe it wouldn't work but in my head it seems like a nice idea.
EDIT: aw crap I forgot that thiosulphate titrations cannot be direct titrations, and the produced oxygen would react with the other thiosulphate. Might work with another reducing agent but at this point it's not worth it anymore.
The joys of EBay. This is why I stopped using it.
To much gas is escaping , you need re circulation and a larger or taller reaction coulomb
Yeah that's what I was thinking as well 7 or better yet use electrolysis to generate pure oxygen maybe with the membrane Style and generally very rarely I come across them in the field in the few times I've been lucky enough tobe installing or doing preventive maintenance ozone generators for high school pool or YMCA or onetime for hospital HVAC there always vertical pre filtered with u v and 5 to 15% recirculated with a flow circulation in bottom out top.
hey I had that generator, worked pretty good for the air mattress I had to sleep on for like 8 months, then it crapped out on me.