In this video I called Louise Turpin "psychotic" which was inappropriate and stigmatizing. So I trimmed that part out. I apologize to anyone I have offended
@Fundie Fridays Jen, in case anyone is unaware, orgs like the FFRF, or Freedom From Religion Foundation, are places with experience in helping people find the resources they need to heal. Whether you have experienced religious trauma, or simply have questions about deconstructing, they can offer support and resources. Hope this is ok, not sure where you stand on advancing resource suggestions, I know it can be delicate. But I know that especially in the US, it can feel lonely to even acknowledge many of these situations, let alone know where to start 🤗 ❤️
I really feel that Randy Yates should have faced some kind of charges. Not, you know, gone on with his life, remarried and had another kid. But that's what seems to have happened.
I know these kinda of videos are hard on your heart but always remember if you don't get the truth & facts out who will always take care of you #1 and for those who run their keyboard keys says so much more about them!
Hi Jen. I'm an ex Quiver-full mum and probably count as one of your older viewers. I'm 44 and have 8 children. My husband and I walked away from our faith and church when my oldest was 12 and our youngest were twins age 2, that was 12 years ago Your channel has been a huge comfort to me. you make me laugh and Ive cried too. I'm so so grateful that I got my family out of there. Please never stop! You're appreciated more than you know...Tess from NZ
I grew up Quiverfull, the oldest daughter of 11. My dad used to say if each of us have "only" 4 kids, he would have 44 grandchildren. He was prone to odd rants, with statements such as "the only purpose of marriage is to produce children," "you have a moral obligation to produce at least three children - one to replace each parent, and another for the growth of the human population" and "overpopulation is impossible - the human race will one day live in skyscrapers." When I was 10, my mom invited me to attend one of her home births, stating "you could very well be married and having your own baby in only 8 years!" Attending the birth was a terrifying experience and had the opposite effect than the one my parents were hoping for. Our life as a huge homeschool fundy family had many good times and beautiful moments, but there was also rampant mental illness and abuse. Most of us are grown up now, and so far there is not a single grandchild.
My husband is from a family of 13 and most of those children did not have any children themselves. The few that did had only 1 or two. All of them believe that having more then 4 children close together is child abuse.
I'm from a "small" Quiverfull family of 6. I was taught that my job, as a woman, to cook, clean, have babies, and raise them the same way I was raised. Out of all of us, there are only 2 grandchildren, none are from me and my husband. We have not intention of having children. I'm sorry for everything you went through.
Hearing that the Turpin children escaped only to be subjected to further abuse and horrible and unsafe living situations is what broke me. Their family failed them, their foster families failed them, social services failed them, their "undisclosed public guardian" failed them, and even their communities have failed them. If they aren't able to receive the proper help, living conditions, and therapy they so need and deserve, I fear for what the future holds for them and any future generations -- generational trauma is very real and is hard to overcome without proper healing and intervention. After a lifetime of pain and hardships, I truly hope that they all receive the love, compassion, care, and _actual_ help that they all deserve.
I've read that neighbors would sometimes catch their shadows through the windows. Doing bizarre things like marching for hours in the dark. I guess they wanted to mind their business. If Jordan didn't find a window to the world she might not have known anything was wrong.. which sounds unbelievable but trust me, if it's all you know... I can't even say how brave she was for getting help. I ran away to the park once and was beaten so bad that I never left the house again. She knew that even worse punishment would await her if she was caught, but she put that aside and tried anyway. If she didn't have those photos she might not have been believed, so she was smart AND brave. But a child shouldn't have to save herself. Communities need to step up and make it their business if they see something.
@@sentient_baby_carrot By that point Jordan didn't care if she got killed for running away. She was prepared to take that risk as she couldn't bear living in that house anymore. She didn't even know where she was as she wasn't told what her address was or given a map and the police didn't believe her at first.
I just need to bring up that the cops asked this girl who was probably emaciated, cold, hungry, and terrified if she had *pictures* of her siblings tied up.
The cop probably thought she was a on drugs and/or was a rebellious teenager. They probably would have sent her back home….talked to her parents and then god knows what the parents would have done to her after the cops left.
I will say that due to her specific circumstances (ie the speech issues they have from almost zero schooling) it does make her initially sound like she’s either on a substance or mentally unstable. If someone ran up to you saying all that with having zero knowledge of who she is you’d want proof too. That being said it’s probable cause. If she didn’t have pictures, they’d have to get a warrant (which they probably obtained regardless but it would of just extended the timeline).
Gotta echo the other commenters on this one. I don't think any of us could have an appropriate initial response if we were thrust into that situation, even a trained police officer.
Another point about Andrea Yates is that for a period of several years, they were living in a semi-converted schoolbus. Imagine the stress of trying to raise several tiny children in a schoolbus, while suffering from post-partum psychosis. Oh, and meanwhile, Rusty has divorced her, remarried, and started filling a new quiver with children.
Before the murder, Andrea actually WAS a really great person. She was internet friends with my mother, on a quilting forum in the late 90s. My mum had even talked to her on the phone about their mental health struggles. When this news came out, it destroyed my mum’s spirit. She always felt so terrible for Andrea.
I feel terrible for her children. It’s appalling how many people knew of her mental health and yet those children were murdered. She never should have been a parent, and Christians allowed this to happen.
@@kukusenka I’m not gonna debate PPP with you. I’m not gonna re-establish a past tense of someone that you never even knew. But I will leave you with this little morsel: great people can give way to the most horrific things.
@@kukusenka I disagree. Severe mental illness can impact anyone regardless of gender, character, age, moral fiber etc. I sincerely hope neither you nor anyone you love faces such challenges ❤.
My mother had postpartum psychosis after having me and what she described was absolutely terrifying. She said she'd look at me in my cot and see bugs crawling all over me and over the cot sides. Because of my mother's history I was watched like a hawk by my midwives during and after my pregnancies. Fortunately I was fine but if I wasn't and I had experienced that then no way would I have more kids. The patriarchal movement kills women and children and they just don't care.
I suffered from post partum psychosis after having my youngest daughter at age 40, a couple years after the Yates tragedy. It came out of the blue. The nightmares started the following day after giving birth, scaring me so badly I didn’t sleep for 3 straight months. I was hospitalized before my daughter was 2 weeks old, followed by 3 more hospitalizations the first 6 months. And yes, your Mom is correct, it is horrifying. Everything about your “normal” self is beyond your reach and life becomes a hellscape you can’t understand. I feel so much for your Mom, and even though I felt all along I would never harm my baby, I felt for Andrea Yates. I hope you and your Mom are ok by now, and she knows that she had nothing to be sorry or feel regrets about, even though as a mother, those feelings are hard to avoid.
I experienced drug- induced psychosis a couple years ago and i still have flashbacks. It was traumatic. I can't imagine the torture of going through that as a mom or for such a long time
Exactly these men in these religions don't take account on how much stress it can put on your body and mental health they just see women as an object & property. They don't see them as a human being who gets tired as well
I have PTSD from the birth of my daughter and following postpartum psychosis. I hallucinated her dying every time somebody touched her and was legitimately losing my mind. Sending love to anyone who's dealt with it too ❤️
My mom has described what seems to me so obviously postpartum psychosis that no one ever treated her for (and my dad obviously resented her for forever although I'm sure he didn't do fuckall to help and probably made it worse) after my little sister was born. I thank God we're all ok, but I feel SO bad for her every time I think about it, and I also know that what my life was like at 2 years old is probably still a part of what's affecting me at 37. She's described "thinking the house was on fire," among other things. Just horrible stuff to deal with, and to be alone with two babies...
There are no words to properly describe my hatred for the Turpins. The husband with his Little Dutchboy haircut and the wife looking all like she was just a helpless victim herself. Why would anyone keep having children just to torture them? It makes no sense.
It actually does in a perverse way. I am convinced that some people have children, pets, and/or spouses so the have someone they can dominate and abuse.
I have a lot of compassion for Andrea Yates. The people closest to her made it clear that she didn’t want more children and was afraid that giving birth would induce more psychosis, but Rusty coerced her. She was 100% not of her right mind. Psychosis isn’t just depression or even just mania. It’s paranoia and an absolute conviction that the delusions they’re experiencing are reality. Unless you’ve witnessed someone experiencing psychosis or experienced it yourself, it’s hard to express how horrifying it is and how much it consumes a person’s mind and behavior. I don’t know anything about her character, but that isn’t really relevant. She thought, in that moment, that she was doing right for her children. It’s so deeply sad.
I totally agree. I think Rusty is largely responsible but then I wonder how brainwashed he was. The whole situation is beyond sad and was entirely avoidable had they just listened to their doctors. I wonder how completely out of it Andrea was in the days prior to the murders and can't imagine how Rusty rationalized allowing her to be anywhere near the kids, even with the his mother coming over to help.
Hers is the extreme effect of quiverfull thought. Man in charge, woman submissive with her legs open and pregnant, babies on hip. Yuck. I never met a QF woman who wasn't exhausted and stressed.
Yeah, it's actually really disappointing to hear that Jen said she doesn't think Andrea Yates is a good person as a person that has a psychotic illness. Like, not that you have to think she is, obviously I don't know her, but the implication that because of something that happened during a psychotic episode you're not good or bad is just really off-putting and feels very... not understanding of what the reality of psychosis is like, especially combined with Jen giving a poor definition of postpartum psychosis. But the Andrea Yates and Vince Li cases are cases I understandably get really touchy about considering 75% of the time I see people talking about them online there are comments about all people who experience psychosis need to be executed, so, like, I might be thinking too much about it. Edit: And then Jen misuses the word psychotic in a stigmatizing way later in the video. Yeah, no, I'm just really unhappy with this. This isn't a place I expected to feel uncomfortable as a person with schizoaffective disorder, but I guess that's where I'm at.
Andrea Yates is such a tragic case because this could have been all been prevented if Rusty didn't leave her alone. The fact that he remarried and had another child so quickly too after all that happened just showed that he is a sick bastard. As far as I know Andrea has repeatedly denied going to hearings to bring her back into society, and I think that's for the best. She's living in a place that understands her mental state and she's safe.
We talked about her case in my criminal justice class when talking about the insanity plea and in my opinion she's a viticim too. If I remember right, rusty said he thought of Andrea having Mary, the youngest, as driving a car when you know an accident is possible. Doctors told her not to have more kids for her mental heath but rusty wanted more. The fact he had no punishment is sad but I'm at least glad Andrea is away from him and getting proper care, just wish it wasn't because she had a mental break and killed her kids but cause she got it herself for her and family's safety
I think provided she gets the treatment she needs and a approriate safety plan is put in place with monitoring and support she absoluetly should have the chance to go back into the community to live her life. Obviously she would not be allowed to become pregnant again but if she stays on her medication and continues with her treatment plan and is assessed to not be a threat to herself or others then I don't see why she should be instiutionalised for the rest of her life.
Yup. I'm sure that was her plan. She just wanted to escape the miserable life she had and now she's pretty much scarred by the "real " world or well the world she was living in.
I have so much empathy after recently revisiting the Andrea Yates case. There is just so much that the public never knew. The way her mind was manipulated by her husband and religion is so sad. As a mom how went through mind post partum depression, I can't imagine the hell she was going through. My husband was so supportive and helpful with every aspect of caring for our child and here she is barely hanging on and Rusty is trying to keep her pregnant while not helping so much as to change a diaper.
The Andrea Yates case still shakes me. Honestly her husband should have went to jail too for leaving the kids alone with her KNOWING that she wasn’t well enough to care for them. Also, if the media had exposed Quiverfull back then, maybe we wouldn’t even know the Duggars, Bates, etc. now.
I remember this case and what a tragedy. I blame Russell, I can still remember him doing interviews. He is the one to blame for pushing Andrea over-the-top….very sad!
My grandmother told me about these methods for raising a child. She didn't use them on my dad and he grew up a wonderful, loving man. Also, she was kicked out of the church for cutting her hair and wearing make up. She was a REBEL! Love her so much!
I believe Rusty Yates realized what Andrea was going through, but it was inconvenient for him, so he just ignored it. Being in any way inconvenient is a major sin in the fundamentalist community, Rusty was the head of the family, so things were the way he wanted them to be. Don't confuse him with the facts. He never seemed very upset about the dealth of his kids, more about how his wife's actions would reflect on him.
exactly! in his mind, he could always have more kids to replace them but he couldn’t deal with having his reputation tarnished as a good christian patriarch
I hate it when abusers start crying and apologizing for what they did. They are not sorry for the abuse just sorry for the fact they got caught. It makes my gut churn. If you are so sorry why in the HELL did you do it in the first place?
The fact that he said “I never meant to cause my children harm. I’m sorry IF I hurt them” yada yada. Still taking no accountability. And the newscaster like “they seem sooooo guilty. Can’t you see how sorry they are 🥺” like, sir, that is NOT the point. The fact that they did this to their children at all negates any regret or guilt they feel, imo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Often it's the parent refusing to unpack the abuse they did and just think as long as they don't repeat actions they're a perfect parent. Which is why they especially take any comment about their child so strongly, because they take it as an attack or 'you're just as bad as your parents' when it can be a simple learning opportunity or just understanding a new pov :( ...speaking from unpacking my own parental unit upbringing 😅
What sucks is that there are times when abusers regret what they did and actively work to change. But they’re overshadowed by those who will just keep hurting other people
As someone who has a religious form of ocd called scrupulosity, I unfortunately understand Andrea Yates’ thought process. Before getting therapy and medication, I spent years wishing I had died young before I became so corrupted. Thankfully, I found a therapist who just told me point blank that I have religious trauma and helped me to work past these dangerous thoughts in my head before I likely would’ve killed myself.
i’m glad you got the help you needed! i felt this because i have ocd too and i have a lot of guilt about not being as religious as i used to be because of it
Oh wow, I had the same thought when I was a teenager. I sometimes wished I had died as a small child because then I would've been "perfect" and remembered as an innocent child rather than a worthless teenager. I'm glad I was able to get through that messed up idea and I'm glad that you were able to overcome that as well.
I deal with this too. It's gotten better as a result of therapy, medication, and community. Learning that scrupulosity was an actual mental illness and not actually my conscience was life changing.
I’m not defending what Andrea did, but of course, her controlling, patriarchal, husband, who used God to con her into his will, and knock her up as much as he wanted, despite the fact that she knew she shouldn’t be having more children, was left blameless! That poor woman was literally psychotic, and trying not to make things worse, and knew she might hurt her kids! HE KNEW she might hurt their children, but left her alone anyways! He should be in jail too!
His tears on the video made me mad. She has asked for help, her family has asked for help and HE decided to just go back to work. Leaving her to deal with her issues alone. This man let his wife and his children down.
Thank you! He is just as responsible! Had he actually cared about his wife he wouldn't have made her time and time again get pregnant, knowing her fear of hurting the children. If they had stopped having kids and if she kept taking her medicine I doubt this would have ever happened.
And now that she's no longer suffering from post partum psychosis, she feels so guilty about what she did that she's waiving her yearly release reviews from the hospital she's in. I honestly feel terrible for her, both her husband and her own brain betrayed her completely and kids died for it.
@@andreakoroknai1071 How awful. I don't understand why these men are allowed to become pastors. Much of what they preach is not Biblical. They are monsters.
While the loss of children is tragic, it’s also heartbreaking to me that Andrea Yates was trying to get help and trying to prevent her psychosis from harming her children was stopped by her husband and religious beliefs. It’s heart breaking that the Turpin children are or did still experience abuse after escape.
Yes! She begged for help. She HERSELF told Rusty she was scared to be alone with the kids. He said she "had to learn to handle the kids alone eventually' she he left her alone
@@zuglymonster I guess he thought she should pull herself up by her shoe strings, but her shoe strings were broken. She couldn't even handle the responsibility she had, and he wanted to pile more on by giving her even more children and would still expect her to manage them all by herself. He refused to accept the reality of her issues and wanted to precede own with getting his ideal family. That's where being idealistic instead of realistic can become inhumane sometimes.
As someone who wet the bed as a child because of an actual medical condition that went undiagnosed for many years their approach to bed wetting is so troubling and scary. I would have spent entire weeks outside in the cold drenched and alone. Barbaric.
I can totally relate to this. It's terrifying to think if we were born into different families we might've died from exposure for something as trivial as bed wetting...
I completely agree! I started wetting the bed at age five after my family immigrated to the U.S. It's perfectly normal for kids that age to wet the bed after big life changes. My beloved father found the solution- he woke up every night in the middle of the night and took me to the bathroom before I could wet myself, until it became my own habit. That's what good parents do. Make you feel safe and secure and sacrifice their own comfort to ensure their children are well.
I was also raised fundie, and am a gay adult and it was hard for me growing up... And I'm glad that at least my Mom was never this unhinged and eventually grew out of it all together. 😰😰😰
I remember being a kid hearing about my fellow homeschool fundie kids talking about ways their parents were abusing them. Except they didn’t call it abuse, it was normal to us. One girl I knew was in her early 20s and her parents refused to let her get a job, have secular friends, or even leave the house. She had to run away on horseback. That story confused me for years but now I admire her bravery. I always wonder where she ended up.
@@graceannbloom7267 I think her parents expected her to just be their live-in babysitter for… ever I guess. These were people with 10+ kids thinking they were doing the world good. In reality we were all poor. I guess my family was a bit different, my mom wasn’t crazy religious. I was homeschooled because my parents were convinced columbine was going to happen in our small town, so they kept me home. I had zero friends so they enrolled me in church things were the rural area homeschool kids. I met a lot of genuinely good kids that were made to feel guilty about being human and wanting to do kid stuff. I’ve never forgotten about the girl that ran away on horseback. I remember her mom giving a testimony at church about her daughters sinful ways and how it’s strengthened the rest of the family’s relationship with god. So weird. I hope they never found her.
@@calliekittyvideos That's further cementing my distrust and suspicion of the rural US. Do these villages even have one remotely good-natured person in a single position of authority?
@Alexandria Essays I hope you are able to get out and grow and do what you need to do. I never saw any fundie kids living in complete squalor but I did know quite a few who were abused. After I had gone to public school (10th grade) I joined an after school college prep program and one of the fundie girls I knew qualified for it also through good grades and living below the poverty line. She and I became good friends and she delved into her life at home, including showing me pictures of her back from her dad whipping her with a switch. I got a leader involved and I didn’t see her again after that. I don’t know what happened to her except she popped in my FB “people you may know” a year ago and she’s married. I hope she found a partner to treat her right but I know how cycles of abuse work. Sorry I’m so long winded!
No child should ever be punished for wetting the bed or any other bathroom related issue. Breaking the will of a child is beyond cruel, but that’s how parents like the Pearls control them. The bravery of Jordan Turpin is so great that it is almost incomprehensible.
It's RUMORED (that's the key word) that JonBenet's mom (if you don't remember she was a 6 year old girl who was found murdered in her parents home in the 90s and is still unsolved) beat her because she wet her bed. Anyway thanks for coming to my TED talk
I have a 2 year old and there is this weird thing in the mommy world where it's a competition to potty train your kids really early, whether they are ready or not. Even moms who aren't in weird religious groups. It just seems cruel to put a child through that when their bladder and brain just aren't ready.
@@pcbassoon3892 agreed! Stress and trauma can cause children to struggle even more and even take some steps back when potty training… because they are tiny and none of it is anything they can help! Even older children can have these issues, and they should be helped not harmed by their parents and other adults.
Can we just quickly note...she was 16 and he was 23 when they married. She was being sexually abused as a CHILD then had to give him as many children as possible. Many times 90% of the blame should be the husband 9% the wife's parents and 1% the mom.
@@owl.feathers Louise Turpin. Not only did she meet David when she was 15, her own mother had been (according to Louise's sister Theresa) selling both of them to the grandfather for drug money prior to David entering the picture. Not only did Louise Turpin grow up shockingly poor, in a region known for it's lack of oversight by both social workers and law enforcement, she was trafficked from one adult male to another. I would be shocked if she DIDN'T have mental health issues.
@@pansprayers technically Louise and David Turpin met when she was 10 and he was 16/17…..which is even more twisted. Both are monsters, but I feel like Louise evilness was created by the trauma she had and David was a sick abuser who was just evil and took advantage of her trauma and then gave all of his 13 kids trauma.
@@emilychristina3172 bless you for keeping a good eye on your charges, we recently had to call social services on a family on the building and we were surprised they didn't remove the child (substance abuse, neglect) I wonder if in these cases they come back to have a look at certain intervals. I know the system in my country is so broken as well. As citizens we really have to be on the lookout
I live in the area the Yates lived. I was “treated” at the same mental health facility as her. (It’s really the only place in the area) For years after the Yates tragedy happened I would regularly run out of medication, go into detox/withdrawals, was misdiagnosed and shuffled from doctor to doctor. At least one doctor who I saw, was one of the ones who treated her. Just last year teenagers in the children facility set their dorm on fire in protest of treatment. She was really failed all around. When she had enough clarity, she told people what she was afraid she would do. She asked for help.
@Alyssa the only thing that the US can peg as a "dependent" at 21 is health insurance - you're free to find a job with health benefits so you can cut the strings to your parents. Also, under HIPPA they can't legally ask your doctor for any treatments you get (birth control, anti-depressants, etc) unless you list them. your parents lost the right to have them spill information when you turned 18. The only thing the insurance company will do in the EOB is list that they paid for a procedure at a certain facility - it wont state what procedure. (For all your parents need to know - it could be a zit being popped.)
@@AmyC28713 no, you're a "dependant" for college in the USA until mid 20s, too- parent/guardian financial info & signature required for FAFSA (student aid grants & loans)
Sounds like the mental health system there is broken. When conflicting with fundamentalism psychiatry suffers. They openly defy psychiatry as of the devil.
It’s interesting to hear the news anchor talking about the Andrea’s story. “She recovered from suicide and seem to be fine.” Sign of the times, I hope.
Can’t watch anything of Jordan Turpin without crying. Can you imagine how goddamn brave she was? How much love she felt for her siblings that she escaped and saved them, after having been strangled before? It’s truly humbling. Great episode also Jen, you’ve been so rounded & grounded in your approach to these subjects and it’s so refreshing. Big ups to you and James.
Dude, I had never heard of the Turpins, and I am horrified and crying as I type this.... Those poor children. I want to metaphorically strangle their parents... It's an insane thing to hear about and witness and even IMAGINE living a life of just suffering.
Despite all the evil we learned about in this video, Jordan's bravery and willingness to sacrifice herself reminds me of the potential for beauty, selflessness, and goodness that people can possess. We should all look to her as an example of how to be a good person.
@@Ass_of_Amalek A palette swap of her anyway. To gaucher: Pity there's nothing the court system can do to label the Turpin parents as lifelong murder risks. All of the cities' failures could easily provide that evil couple an opportunity to strike again someday, whichever crime they're compelled to commit.
Andrea was just as much a victim as her children, as far as I'm concerned. She was only valued for her ability to bear children, and she literally thought she was saving her children from Hell.
I agree completely, and always wished Rusty would have been charged with SOMETHING…. child endangerment maybe? He was told unequivocally DO NOT LEAVE HER ALONE WITH THE CHILDREN. He and his punchable face thought he knew better, and couldn’t let her be dependent upon anyone 🙄 although SHE CLEARLY NEEDED HELP. He ignites so much rage in me
YES YES YES! Iirc, she had also said to certain people that she didn't want to get pregnant again, she knew it wasn't good for her. It's so painful, but not impossible, to see the string of "oh shit I was raised/trained to be a sex doll baby maker" to "I have to save these kids and the only freedom is through death". People like to forget that someone in psychosis usually cannot think logically/clearly. I'm so angry her husband faced nothing. I'm so angry she had to be the sacrificial lamb to get us to where we are now with PPD/PPP. She needed help. Real, supportive, help. Not to be treated like a fucking dairy cow. APOLOGIES FOR THE LANGUAGE I GOT HEATED.
Looking at the video again, I woudn’t be surprised the husband actually drowned the children as discipline and let Andrea take the fall … He looked almost happy Reading the statement…
Just a quick note: Mental health meds have come a long way and many of our newer anti depressant and anti anxiety meds can be taken during pregnancy and breastfeeding! So if you are pregnant and have mental health concerns don't be afraid to talk to your Dr, they can help you find a regimen that will keep you and baby safe
Andreas story still makes me so sad. I was raised fundamentalist. I do consider my family to be a quiver full family, I only have 7 siblings, but two were born with congenital heart defects, one is special needs and one passed away. My parents still had 5 more kids after the first because they left god in charge. (My grandmother recently passed away and her obituary said she had over 200 children/grand children/great grandchildren, so if that doesn’t say anything about the way I was raised idk what does). Then I started having kids, three back to back with 16 and 18 months between them. I suffered from PPD but it went untreated because my church taught that mental illness was caused by sin. I remember reading Andrea’s story after my third daughter was born and I was suffering with intrusive thoughts of hurting my baby. I saw myself in her and was able to turn away from the harmful beliefs that were pushing me in the same direction. I’m now treated for depression, anxiety, and ADHD and am no longer a Christian. Thank you for highlighting her story and the underlying mental health and religious causes for what happened.
I'm so sorry for the traumatic experience you had. I wish you peace and happiness. I turned my back on church and found God! Have your own relationship with him in your way if you choose. I wouldn't trust a "christian" as far as I could throw them. ❤️
I am so sorry that happened to you and I hope you continue in your healing journey. I hope nothing but the best and thank you for telling your story. 💜💜💜💜
I’m so sorry you experienced all that but I’m so glad you find a way to get the treatment you needed and deserve. Wish you nothing but happiness and healing and have so much respect for you for having the courage to get help.
As a parent who had PPP, the thoughts in your head are NOT your own. I kept hearing a baby crying even when one wasn't in the house. I kept having intrusive thoughts that I was going to do nothing but harm this child, that I was a fuck up, that because I was abused that means I had to be abusive as well. I just wanted nothing but to die. I sought help immediately, spent some time in psychiatric care, and 11 years later we (my little boy and I) are doing great. (Also for any scared parents with PPD or PPP: DHS was never even considered being called because I sought out help. If you're afraid to reach out for that reason: Everyone was SUPER supportive and helpful. The OB knows this is a VERY real thing that claim lives. And if they are dismissive towards you, FIND ANOTHER OB or go to the ER. That is NOT your fault and they are NOT a good or safe doctor. )
@@wmdkitty the commenter you responded to did, she asked for help. And made sure she got it, and advises everyone else to do the same. What part of this is 'not taking responsibility'?
@@wmdkitty I literally went to a pyschward for 3 days impatient. I sought therapy and help. I got medication. I got better. But, you know what Shawna? You could take some responsibility about your need to punch down at people with mental health illnesses. Maybe crack the binding of some psychology textbooks, perhaps? Learn some basic kindness. Crawl out of the swamps of Ben Shapiro's wet dreams and realize that what you doing is a desperate cry for help and attention that the internet just isn't responsible for. You can do better too, Shawna. But walking away from trolling the internet is the first step in your recovery!
The doctors know that if your first reaction to hearing phantom babies is "I'm in trouble, I need help", then you've got good reality-testing and you're likely to respond well to treatment. They want to get you stabilized on meds ASAP, get you into counseling, and they see it as a really good sign that you've asked for help, because it means that even when you weren't thinking straight, you still managed to make good decisions and protect yourself and your family. "I need help" is a good sign. It's the "I don't need help; I'm fine" that worries them. People like you, who detect it and ask for help immediately, are at much lower risk precisely because they are taking responsibility for a problem they're having and taking steps to solve it.
The Andrea Yates story convinced me to have a plan in place should I ever have children, to meet with both my regular psychiatrist/therapist as well as a postpartum psych specialist regularly during and after pregnancy. I think having frank conversations with partner/family/professionals about what to do if postpartum depression/anxiety/psychosis happens should be WAY more common and part of the education given by hospitals and birth workers. Not everyone is going to have full psychosis after giving birth, but that doesn’t mean that other psych symptoms aren’t worth preparing for and treating if they occur.
My parents were all in on To Train Up a Child, and for it I had a terrible childhood. Now my parents don't understand why their children have mental issues, and to quote my dad even just yesterday, "I don't understand you. It's not like you were abused."
My sister-in-law gave all the wives in the family a copy for Christmas one year. I read it, and then I burned it. Good on your parents for knowing it was garbage!
"I'm sorry IF I have done anything to harm my children" while in court for torture and false imprisonment is such a classic shrug off of responsibility it could only come from a fundy. Also, if you watch a child get smacked around or walk around with clear injuries and you don't interfere, you are a bad person and are party to the abuse. Be nosey; you may save a life
Be careful about how you react. Call the police, call CPS but also keep a record of who you called, when, what you saw and heard from whom and when... If you think that calling for help will result in the kids getting help you are living in a fantasy, not in America. Write down EVERYTHING. A pattern of events that you can present to multiple parties is more likely to help than a single random call to CPS.
I was homeschooled my whole life until college and by homeschooled I mean they gave me books and expected me to teach myself. If I didn't understand something they would "attempt" to teach me which was actually them repeating themselves explain things in ways I didn't understand to them screaming at me and shaming me and making me believe I was mentally deficient. Eventually they stopped even trying to teach and I stopped going to them for help. I was put in a mail - in school program which was still just reading books myself and doing tests. I completed the subjects I was naturally decent at but the subjects I struggled the most with I was unable to get by... I stopped trying they only occasionally berated me about it but otherwise didn't care I spent most of my teen years avoiding life and hating myself for being lazy and stupid and a horrible person. I dropped out of school eventually. When I was finally an adult and moved away I got my GED I discovered I'm actually pretty smart just that you shouldn't expect children to be able to teach themselves. I had no support or proper resources growing up and I now am very intellectually curious and I love to learn. I do okay in formal environments like college but atm not pursuing a degree for mental health reasons. So basically, yeah I 1000% agree. My parents raised 5 children and the last of us 2 when my parents got tired of being actual parents they stopped trying and apparently there were no systems in place to protect us from being completely including educationally neglected
I was homeschooled and had a really positive experience, there are definitely great parents and families out there! It's such a tragedy that people abuse the privilege of home education.
@@emmelineannie5236 totally. I only ever met two people who were homeschooled, and their experiences were incredible. They did lots of traveling and were both more advanced in school than I was. People abusing the system is incredibly disturbing
@@carolinev8038 I don’t agree. It should be legal but regulated. There are places in the US, for example, in which there is a requirement for certain concept to be taught, like history and math
The Andrea Yates case is one that I can't get over. I have so many mixed feelings about it because it could've SO EASILY been prevented and she even tried to prevent it by attempting suicide. I don't think she's some monster, she's just a very sick woman that unfortunately was taken advantage of by her manipulative "religious" husband. I'm glad she's in a hospital getting constant treatment but I feel like her husband should've faced some kind of punishment because he was in his right mind and just let all of this happen after he was warned that this was a very real possibility
Hey Jen! Just wanted to say that as a Christian, I really appreciate how respectful and informative these videos are. There are some seriously twisted and dark parts of evangelical/fundamental Christianity that need to be exposed and held accountable.
as someone with a relative with severe bipolar disorder thank you for acknowledging how psychosis truly strips someone of their decision making and reality perception. someone in that state shouldn’t be expected to respond to their actions in the same way someone of sound mind would.
She was legit out of her mind, and driven to kill. I remember thinking she was just a crazy lady who hated her kids, but when I actually looked into it she was relentlessly hammered by toxic religious impossibilities.
Every case should be looked through the cultural lens. It shows how much in life is not black and white. And how much the lack of social systems effects everyone. It .as make the results of a case more unbearable, to some, but context is nessasary. I am saying this as a survivor of csa by someone who was themselves sa as a child. It does not excuse in any way whay my biological father did, but it shows a generational pattern of sa and trauma. A pattern I was able to break. But in context, child abuse in all forms is the biggest epidemic in human history. And leads to most of our issues.
I have a few thoughts on the Andrea Yates story. First of all, she was a person with a disability. 2nd, taking away her meds, was like taking away a paraplegic's wheelchair. What she suffered was abuse of a person with a disability. Her husband should be in jail for abuse. Too often people with mental health issues and disorders are rarely seen as people with disabilities, even by professionals. And I hate to say it, even some professional commenters have failed to see this aspect of the case.
Also, thank you so much for the line ‘life doesn’t stop for the traumatized.’ It doesn’t. I could not imagine what the Turpin kids feel every day but I can imagine how hard it must be to keep going every single day. The kids still have so much stacked against them and I hate that the struggles keep on coming for these people. I wish I could say that it surprises me, but unfortunately it does not.
I studied the Andrea Yates case for a criminal psychology course and the lack of concern Rusty had for her and his own children was horrendous. He had so many red flags and overt warnings as to not leave her alone with the children. I had post partum depression and that was hell so I imagine what she went through was a billion times worse. I feel empathy for her but the kids were the true victims in this case. I'd like a few minutes alone with those who follow the pearls advice harming children because they twist religion to justify it does not make it okay. I'm pagan and would NEVER harm a child. Thanks for covering these hard but necessary stories ❤️
Most of these Quiverfull couples reek of a latent violent, sadistic, and serial killer style streak. Quiverfull parents have committed so many of the worst acts of evil the modern-day US has ever seen, that I've lost all value for the couple's lives or any sympathy whenever anything bad happens to these couples.
Yup, she was afraid for her children and he managed to persuade her to ignore her judgement. I hope he's haunted by the guilt forever, if he's even capable of seeing that his children died fron his actions.
The "out of the frying pan and into the fire" situation that they found themselves in with foster homes is unfortunately all too common for children leaving homes where they have been subjected to religious abuse, having dealt with that myself.
I remember my mom reading To Train Up a Child. And as an adult I’ve realized that she was overworked and exhausted but never used a single method from it - she talked things through with me.
I believe having as many children as Quiverfulls strive to have already lends itself to an abusive situation without any additional abuse. I'm not a parent, but having just one or two children seems like a buttload of work, and these people want to have like 10 or 20? This is the kind of situation that leads to neglect and parentification of children; these kids are having their childhood stolen from them by their crazy cultist parents.
Indeed indeed, I think that you need some sort of third parent if you have more than four kids because it’s impossible to take care of them well if the ratio is that big.
I’m a mother of one and it is a lot of work. But that’s not me complaining. My child has wants, needs, opinions that differ from mine, a schedule that sometimes conflicts with mine and is often silly. And he’s perfect. Fundie parents strip their kids of their childhoods under the guise of “faith” just to satisfy their own weird breeder fetish without having to actually be good parents. It’s devastating for the older kids that get the idea of shame and hellfire so beat into their heads that they’re incapable of having their own desires. True evil, if you ask me.
Yes, even if they somehow started with a healthy family dynamic the oldest child/ren will get parentified at some point because it is impossible for often just the one parent (due to the patriarchal beliefs these families hold) to keep up with that many kids, even if both parents put in the effort, homeschooling, entertaining, cooking for, cleaning up after, soothing, etc. That many kids would be far too much, theres just no way to avoid it.
I mean just think about the whole “once you have 3 kids your parenting standards go down” and then triple or quadruple it. If for decades we have known and joked about how hard three kids is imagine how impossible 8+ kids are
Honestly. Even having one newborn is a full time job even with both parents present. So I can’t imagine how much time, effort and resources a new born plus 5 young children would need. And then forcing the older ones to care for the younger ones instead as if the parents didn’t decide to bring them into the world? It’s unbelievable.
I do have empathy for Andrea. I suffered from postpartum depression. It was 36 years ago and it was not diagnosed until later. In fact, when I explained to my doctor the symptoms I was having he said "welcome to the wonderful world of motherhood". I am not saying that she is a good person but I think that most women who have been through this can have some empathy for her.
I don't think she is a bad person at all. I never had kids and felt terrible for her. Her husband should have been charged with something. She was clearly mentally ill.
Fr I had postpartum depression with my first and took me 4 years until I was ready to have my second and while pregnant started having panic attacks weekly and after the birth of my second I made a comment to my husband about wanting to launch myself out of the car while he drives on the highway just so I could rest. He called my dr right away and took my next day and came out with medication and a whole plan and my Aunt moved with us to help me and not leave me alone. It took two years to get out of that one and I said never again. Had horrible reproductive health after as well with cysts and fibroids, this year took my uterus out and I wish I had done it sooner but drs will only consider it if you’re dying or something. It took 4 years to gey approved for a hysterectomy.
My dad and stepmom weren’t “quiver full” but they had way too many kids while being severely mentally unstable. They would always use the reasoning that people like the duggars give, “every child is a miracle” but behind closed doors those children are treated like nuisances for having needs. Being the oldest daughter I was OFTEN forced to care for all 6 of my siblings at one time. There was once where my nephew and two young cousins were dumped on me and I had to watch 9 kids, on my own, at 15, for hours while my parents went out with family and had dinner. I didn’t get to go to my own grandmas funeral because I had to watch all the kids. This culture is damaging beyond belief and I just got a little taste of it. I usually try to keep my comments light and funny but knowing what these older siblings are being put through in families like the plath and duggars, makes me so angry because when they look back on their childhood when their older, they don’t get the happy memories of just being a kid, they get the memory of being trapped, ignored, overworked and not being treated like an individual. Sometimes, it doesn’t really get better either. I still got kicked out at 15 and left homeless with my mom for the rest of high school, haven’t been able to have any contact with my siblings in 6 years (the siblings I helped raise like they were my OWN), and have been completely shunned from that side of my family to where I can’t go to weddings or any family get togethers. These conversations are so important to be having, cause lord knows some of these parents are not gonna listen to the kids who end up speaking out.
I hope you are able to get into contact with your siblings soon, and that you are able to make happy memories now despite all of the bs they put you through.
A Quiverfull Cathol, granted it wasn't Protestant, made a mess of my maternal relatives' childhood. My maternal grandma was suspected of parentifying her own elder daughters and neglecting her own younger daughters, and three of her sons contracted alcoholism and tobacco addiction from some unknown stressor, most likely sexual abuse by a priest which has mostly gone unpunished through all of timespace that Catholicism was involved in, and which John Paul II and Benedict XVI had been useless in doing anything about. Theology and a faith's backstory are one thing, but it's made me loathe sectarian authority and hierarchy, and crashed my attitudes about parent sovereignty and parents' judgment.
Edit: I was afraid of being attacked for writing this comment, but I felt it was too important not to. In now reading so many comments of people saying the same, I'm so thankful for your channel. You're helping in ways you probably don't even realize. ❤️ As someone who had postpartum depression/psychosis, I feel for Andrea. What she did was obviously heinous, I'm not defending her at all. However, her case is an absolute learning moment for a woman pushed to the edge, she already had mental health issues, PPD/P, and the added pressure of religious scrutiny created the perfect storm. I wish that we as a society would speak more about PPD/P, hold space for people to speak freely about it. I was terrified to tell *anyone* including my Dr about what I was going through, the horrible thoughts I was having, the fear, etc. I didn't tell anyone for about 12 years about any of it. I was also in a terribly abusive relationship at the time. It's a very scary thing to go thru, especially alone. Rusty can suck it.
I think that PPD/P is a valid excuse…. Her act was heinous, but I don’t think that makes her a bad person. Her mental illness brought on by pregnancy and childbirth are more to blame and as long as she doesn’t have more children, I don’t think she should be locked up forever or vilified. *Saying this as a person who’s also experienced PP depression and anxiety. I wanted to die. I didn’t want to be a mom anymore.
I think alot of people sympathize with Andrea for her situation but she still had to take the consequences for her actions. What always upset me was that Rusty was never punished. He saw Andrea becoming worse and worse and still continued to neglect her and the kids, unintentional as it may have been. He saw her have multiple breakdowns and still did things like take her away from her family, forced her to leave her job, controlled the finances, had her and the kids live in a cheap ass RV, demanded they keep having kids after Andrea had multiple break downs, told Andrea constantly she didn't need to be on meds or she was weak for needing them, and ignored not just the doctors but family members who saw where this was heading. I understand that at the end of the day she could have walked away but it's not nearly that simple. Rusty took alot of her agency away because that was the "Christian" thing to do. He basically forced her into isolation and put her with people that shamed her because she wasn't "a good enough mom" which was so sad because she clearly loved her kids from the videos she took. Before Rusty she was a strong, smart, independent, ambitious woman who could have done so much with her life. I don't blame Rusty for everything but he had a huge role to play and yet he's free because he wasn't the one that snapped and do something terrible. That I will never get over.
@@NotWorthBeans16 I remember when this happened, and it was a witch hunt. Even now there are true crime videos that paint her as evil, and I've been personally filleted in comment sections over my stance. That's why I said that about her and the community that she culivates/draws to her channel. I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of what you've said. Tho I don't believe she could've walked away, I think she was in such bad shape mentally that it wasn't even an option for her.
@@MeganEspelienagreed. It's different for everyone. In my case, my brain told me that the most humane/right thing to do was to release my son and myself of this mortal coil. I was so broken and exhausted that I just wanted he and I to sleep, to escape our nightmare. In my mind it was the most loving, compassionate thing I could do for my child. Thankfully I had moments of rationality amongst the nightmare of that time. It's much deeper than that, but I don't think I can adequately describe it. You're literally disconnected from rational reality. *I edited my reply as when I first read your comment I thought you said "I don't think PPD/p is a good excuse". I just woke up, and apparently my brain decided to put words in places they didn't belong lol.
Yaaaaaaas, finally examining the Andrea Yates case and how the quiverfall movement combats science. I've always felt Rusty and these Christians were almost just as responsible for the children's death.
@Alyssa as someone who grew up in texas and first heard the Yates case as a sleepover horror story shared among friends- may i say that I completely agree!
I agree with you. Rusty stated that after her pregnancies Andrea experienced postpartum depression but he likened it to a car needing fluids or a tune up when she was prescribed medication. That is somewhat dehumanizing and unfeeling. Also her family pleaded with Rusty to get his wife and children out of that bus, stop following that creep cult leader and into a brick and mortar home where there was orderly childcare and privacy. I think that experience took a toll on Andrea's overall mental health and ability to view her children as humans not burdens.
I would say he is more responsible - bc as others mentioned, when she was on her meds and sane, she told people not to leave her alone with the kids and she didn’t want to get pregnant anymore- but he steam rolled that and made her get off her meds
Andrea's husband Rusty should be in prison. He failed her and their children in every possible way and ignored the medical advice of every doctor that treated Andrea.
It's refreshing to see someone cover these kind of cases without sensationalising them and also showing empathy to the women involved. Another great video Jen!
I have so much compassion in my heart for Andrea Yates. She was profoundly sick at the time of the murders, perhaps the most severe case of postpartum psychosis that has ever been recorded. She could've easily managed her condition had she not been indoctrinated into this church that severely neglects the wellbeing of their women and children. In my opinion, Rusty's willful medical negligence of his wife directly led to the deaths of his children and he deserves to be held just as responsible as she was. I hope Andrea found a compassionate community of women where she is and I hope that she understands that she's not a monster, she's a woman who was very, very, sick, was abused by her husband, and was indoctrinated by a church that's just as sick as she was.
Thank you for treating Andrea’s case with care. I remember learning about this case in Abnormal Psych in undergrad. It was infuriating how many students wanted her to get a death penalty rather than having any understanding or compassion around the reality of psychosis and abuse.
I read a lot about the Turpin case, but I never sought out photos or video. So this is the first time I am hearing their voices and seeing their faces. The video from the night of the escape is harrowing! Seeing Jordan trying to process escaping, speaking to this stranger, trying to explain the situation calmly, to articulate what is going on and making sure she's believed, is all so fucking heartbreaking. And when he asks "do you have pictures" and she seems so relieved that she can say yes, I do, please look at them. Watching that footage was a very humbling experience, jeez. I can't remember the last time I was so inspired by human bravery tbh.
The Andrea Yates case makes me so sad and angry, as someone who works in a mental health unit and has seen people with debilitating psychosis go on to live happy, healthy lives. I just feel like in a different environment, with a partner who supported her in taking her meds; took her illness seriously; listened to her and the professionals when they said she shouldn't have anymore children, then maybe things would have been better. Rusty absolutely should have been punished too.
Yeah, this doesn't defend Andrea's actions in anyway, but I really blame Rusty the most. Andrea was profoundly sick and not in her right mind. Rusty, as the only mentally sound adult in that family, had a responsibility to protect his children. However, he didn't want that because childrearing is a woman's job according to his beliefs. He didn't want to believe she was as bad as she said because it was inconvenient for him, so he convinced himself 'yeah she had mental health problems, but she's fine now!' I even freaking saw someone argue "But Andrea wanted more kids too!"...and, so what? Even if she did want more kids too, which I'm not convinced she did considering how many reports there are of her begging Rusty and her MIL for help, he had a responsibility to say "no" because he knew that his wife's doctors had told him it was not safe for Andrea to become pregnant again and not safe for their children to be alone with her!
I discovered you on shiny happy people ( what a harrowing documentary) and I decided to subscribe to your channel. Adore this channel. I read the Quiverfull book. Eye opening. There’s also a book by that author on fundamentalists adopting children that’s something else
We knew a family like that. The oldest child was staunchly against having kids, but she had to keep it silent from her parents. I could see even back then she had to grow up too fast. As her sisters had to as well. Thankfully she was allowed to study to go to university so I hope she is doing well now
"What is the Meaning of being labeled as demon possessed?" That's a question my therapist asked me two days ago during a session where I was trying to figure out how I was taught to deal with emotions. I was diagnosed as being Autistic and having ADHD a year ago and exploring the non-black-and-white perspectives on dealing with emotions is a new chapter in recognizing and dealing with Emotional triggers that used to cause me bigger meltdowns. Growing up, you were either choosing the "wrong" emotions if you weren't Happy, Joyous and full of the Peace that Passes All Understanding...and that was a sin. Or you were "possessed by demons" if you focused too much on "bad" emotions and it overtook your life. This is why I never told my parents that I had previously been diagnosed with Depression and Anxiety years ago and why I WON'T ever tell them I'm Autistic or have ADHD. I never had the same level of abuse of kids did in this video, but I never went to public school or was allowed to hang out with other kids outside of church/church school and we were told, numerous times, that CPS was a threat and not to beat us kids too much to raise suspicion in people outside our small group. There was a lot of emotional and physical abuse, as my dad was working two jobs and my mom couldn't work at all (she suffered from seizures and was believing she'd be healed through faith healing for years before she got surgery for the scar tissue in her brain) which lead to a lot of anger and confusion. My sister and now have wondered for awhile if our parents even wanted us at all and it's also very hard to try to communicate all of this background info/context to my fiance regarding how I'm wired and how I can better handle my own emotions and internal struggles. I'm doing couples counseling right now and want to see what the best approach is for being open and honest about how the past has hurt me (since I've done a lot of my own internal work so much up until now) and what I'm doing to change my previous toxic mental model. I'm always looking out for resources on how to deprogram how I was raised or taught to think (Mickey Atkins's channel is also really wonderful for her fantastic takes on shit I grew up believing), gaps in my childhood development (because there was NO WAY I would've been diagnosed with my disabilities now as a kid) and relearn more psychologically sound perspectives on how to better understand myself, but it's always a journey and I'm happy to be undergoing the steps needed to manifest positive change in myself and others around me.
Even most secular therapists don't understand religious trauma syndrome. It's been up to Marlne Winnell and Valerie Tarico to run retreats for victims of it. I hope they are training therapists to help people with it. The rest of us have to rely on videos like these. In the forums and now the Facebook groups you can find yourself in the same groups as people who don't know what being abused by other fundamentalist Christians looks like as they got a free pass on that as they were in the inner circle of minister's or pastor's kids, worship group, high earners and pretty people. I was never in that though I did date an abusive Pentecostal elder for a few months. Some of them did do some abusing themselves and only left Christianity as they never believed in it and just went to church because their parents made them. Most feel abused by the dogma they used to believe even if they didn't get abused by the minister or other leaders in their church. But that's only if they had believed in it at one time. The most obvious form of church abuse that everyone knows about are the altar boys and junior choir members who were abused by Catholic priests and choir masters. Also children in Catholic children's homes and those who attended Catholic schools. Then the girls who survived the Magdalene laundries in Ireland and were placed there as they had got pregnant or even raped.
on a less extreme note, Jana Duggar was recently convicted of child endangerment. I am sure she meant no harm, but it goes to show how overwhelmed and tired these caretakers can become. It’s not easy being a woman in the IBLP. I highly recommend anyone interested to check out Tia Levings, an ex fundamentalist talking in depth about all she went through as a young woman, bride and subsequently a mother in extremist religion. It’s not hard to see how mistreatment and neglect of children is encouraged in the quiverful movement
Thanks for covering this topic. I wrote a paper for my MS degree a few years back about the impact of corporal punishment on children and... good God, the Pearl's were on my mind the entire time
I remember the Andrea Yeats case. Even then my mom said she could tell Andrea was also a victim-her husband continued getting her pregnant when he knew she was suffering psychosis. Such a tragic story.
I love that I got two pop up that said this was triggering and I had to click to continue. You’re amazing Jen. Thank you for using features that foster a safe space on your channel. You’re such a good person I could cry.
Rusty Yates had forced the family of 7 into a trailer so she could homeschool the five kids. He is guiltier than she is on this case. She was sick and he knew it and all he cared about was telling her why she had to just focus on being a good mom. She needs to be in an institution, he should have done time.
Thank you! You are the first person in 20 years besides me that remembers this detail. I always being it up because at minimum he should have been charged with domestic violence and neglect.
She wasn't sick. She planned out the murders, she methodically killed the kids oldest to youngest, so they couldn't run for help, and she knew, the whole time, that she was doing wrong.
@@wmdkitty she was diagnosed with post partum psychosis by professionals, was taken off of her medications and was suffering from delusions, how was she not sick? while she's still responsible for what happened to her children, having a plan doesn't mean she wasn't suffering mentally
Makes me think of the years when I went to Hebrew school at a Chabad (Orthodox Jewish) and saw the Rabbi's family. His wife was very involved but always had so many young kids with her. Her oldest daughter was always taking care of her siblings. That kind of thinking is very common in Orthodox Jewish groups. I've never heard it referred to as quiverfull in this context but it definitely is.
What infuriates me as much as the way the Turpins treated their kids is the audacity they had in their statements to say "I'm sorry" and "I love you." Their kids have way more grace than I do because I don't buy that for a second. Where was that love and remorse when you WEREN'T facing decades in prison?
They were sorry they got caught and embarrassed that their horrendous abuse of their children was made public. If not for Jordan's courage, the abuse would have continued.
I remember this book being talked about when my oldest was a baby and it was sold in Christian book stores here in Norway. But they had to edit the translation a lot since much of the advice was illegal here, especially physical abuse. So many of the people buying the book had no idea what the views of the Pearls actually were.
Not strong. Just wanting what they deserve. As a survivor of xsa who brought an end to generations of it that went on in my biological father's side. It is not that we are strong. It is that we have a will and a demand to save our siblings and want basic human rights. I would like to think everyone would act like Jordan if they could.
The Collins situation has caused me to take a step back from the snark community. Thank you so much for everything and the way you have used your platform. You have expressed exactly what has been on my mind these past few weeks.
@@victoriashevlin8587 Jenn mentions it in this video when discussing Karissa and Mandrae Collins. The snark community has been very vocal about what is a troubling medical issue with their youngest. It isn't something we should be interacting with and many have crossed lines out of concern. I don't think it's healthy or wise for us internet people to interact directly with these people.
I’m not really in the space to hear about such a sad subject right now, but wanted to say thank you for talking about this and bringing a light to this. It’s sick and beyond sad.
The Andrea Yates case. I always had a problem with her husband not getting any jail time for what he put her through and for leaving her alone with the children when he KNEW how bad it was. That he got to go on with his life after that and make more children is so wrong! He should have been charged with 90% of the murder of those kids. What really drove it home for me was having children, and experiencing PPD, and finding out my husband was actually going to become the most needy, moody, grumpy, incapable baby in the house after the actual babies were born. He was heartless to me. Abusive. And I was 100% responsible for the entire family’s happiness according to him. There’s no way Andrea Yates should have been held mentally competent at the time of her crime. I’m glad she’s living somewhere where she can be safe from society and get help. (We hope). Her husband’s negligence and machismo caused the death of those children.
I don’t think I’ll ever be able to understand the dual impulses of having as many kids as possible and then abusing/neglecting the same kids you put all that time and effort into producing. The idea behind quiverfull is to produce more people capable of spreading your beliefs, so producing offspring who you don’t spend any time raising in a healthy way just screams a complete lack of intelligent thought behind your actions. Plus crazy.
Narcissism. These children are not people in their eyes. They’re trophies and extensions of their devotion to God. Everything else is a burden. My mother, though not at all religious, has a very similar mindset in her pride.
Appearances, as she said, "look at me and my husband and my perfect family of well behaved children, they're so mature and such *old souls*, yes I blanket trained them why do you ask?". Idk much about the ideology rn but I imagine the more kids you have the more "blessed by god" you are.
It's a kink. They actually don't care about the kids, they just get off on having them. It's like Master/Slave shit. The wife gets off being a slave, and then gets to be a master over the children. The husband just gets off all around.
Yes. I was raised in this. This is spot on. I’m surprised all of my siblings and myself survived our childhood. You can’t even imagine what these people are like behind closed doors. Thank you so much for shining the light Jen. ❤️❤️❤️🙏🙏🙏
I spent 6 weeks in a mother baby unit for people with post natal depression, while I was in there I also was with mothers who had post natal psychosis….it’s such a tragic and frightening thing to witness. Im just glad I was there to witness how a seemingly normal woman, can turn into something unrecognisable in such a short space of time. As much as it angers me to see children no longer with us, there’s also empathy for those who honestly have no control over what is happening to their own consciousness.
About mandated reporters.. I was in a very bad situation as a kid. That's putting it lightly. I never got chained up, but the Turpin house photos trigger me. My "parents" were sentenced to jail time because of it, and I wasn't allowed to have visitation w/ them. So yeah, it was bad. CPS only got involved because someone in the neighborhood finally made it their business, and called the cops. I was taken out that night, taken to a hospital, and never went back again. IDK if the mandated reporters (teachers, etc) ever made the call. I was put in special ed, nobody ever asked me if anything was wrong at home, they just called it a behavior problem. I remember having an aide spend an hour brushing my hair every week or so, but somehow a dirty child with matted hair didn't raise any red flags. Then I was pulled out of school in third grade, was hidden and nobody could do anything for me anymore. My point here isn't to tell you a sob story, I don't want to make this about me. I'd rather frame this as someone else's to be honest, but I guess it might need to come from the source. We only see the televised cases. There are probably many more. Mine wasn't.. just a single local news report. (at least thats what I found online years later) I WISH somebody said something sooner, but nobody wanted to get involved or help me, they just minded their business. I wish they made it their business. (Edit to add: great video Jen, as always. I hope it doesn't seem too aggressive of me, and I know you mean no harm. I just really, really needed to say this. Hopefully all my frantic comments will sway the algorithm in your favor at least, haha)
This is why I can't get 100% on board with Jen's suggestion to not report things. I agree people shouldn't be wasting CPS' time on hearsay, rumors, and misperceptions, but I'm concerned that "stay out of it" can slip into the Bystander Effect. I'm sorry you endured all that, but I'm glad you were able to get away from it.
Took the words out of my mouth. If abuse is observed, it NEEDS to be our business. It should be everyone's business. Of course we shouldn't harass someone based off rumors, but we SHOULD speak up when we see something that isn't right.
@@novaava I think if it’s something you’re witnessing in your own neighborhood that’s one thing, you’re involved in your community. I think Jen is discouraging folks from the Internet from calling CPS on strangers based on assumptions from their social media and I think that’s a reasonable call.
I grew up in, and live only a few miles away from, Crystal Lake, IL, where AJ Freund was tortured and killed by his "parents." People in the (very nice) neighborhood called the police and DCFS repeatedly. DCFS completely dropped the ball for political reasons, and some agents have now been convicted. But at least the community spoke up. The family attended a branch of Chicagoland's biggest megachurch, and no one there has really said if they were aware of trouble or did anything about it. I went to AJ's visitation (closed casket), and the two police officers flanking that little casket were the saddest adults in have ever seen. They did all they could. But I still think that church could have done more. If I'm misinformed, I apologize.
I was looked at strangely once, I was asked what I did with my little ones that taught them to listen so well to my instructions. I said "blanket training", having no idea what that meant to most people. I had heard the term explained as encouraging little ones to stay where they needed to for safety. So, I would daily play games of yes and no. Reward to stay on the blanket and simply say 'No' and pop them back on to the safe place if they move from it. We played stop go. Sang songs constantly about what we were doing. The patience game taught them to fold their hands in lap. I would say "hands in lap" and start lining up sultanas with reasons why they were special. "This is 'cause you are funny, this is because you are kind, etc. and this is 'cause i love you - go bubby go!" They would dive for the sultanas and laugh. Always praise, kindness and encouragement. Why would anyone hurt a baby for curiosity? So many biblical texts are completely perverted in order to justify heinous acts. As my Nanna used to say "Jesus wept!"
The Turpins are a particularly interesting case, because they were hardcore Pentecostals at the start supposedly. Initially the kids were being forced to read the Bible and memorize verses. However, the religious teachings eventually petered out to almost nothing, including not even teaching the children to read or interacting with them at all. The Turpins kind of take the religious mask off of the abuse because they removed the religion but not the abuse. However I will say, they’re only very loosely Quiverfull, rather than let God decide how many kids they’d have, Louise wanted 12 children, and then claimed that a psychic told her she’d have a 13th. I also think it’s interesting that they’ve been called a “family cult”, them being separate from an umbrella organization is the only thing that separates them from a group like IBLP to me, and I’d be curious to see the family cult model of analysis applied to groups like the Duggars. The Family Next Door by John Glatt is a great book on the Turpins for anyone interested!
Probably because they decided to run a church in their own home rather than attend church. I don't know what happened fully but extremists usually don't fit in with other extremists are they are usually extreme in their own way or because they want to be top dog. Also the Turpin mother got into witchcraft probably as she was looking into it. Christianity is very close to witchcraft anyway.
It took me a while to watch this one. I am glad I finally got the courage to. I am so relieved at the way you covered this very harsh reality of the quiverfull movement. Your closing statement nearly brought me to tears. I appreciate your compassion and concern for the children. As we see with the Turpins, just because the parents are removed, doesn't mean the problems they have go away. I so badly want to take them all in and give them a safe place to live and help them fight for their money. Poor babies!!! -Dee
Andrea Yates was a victim 100%. Yes, what she did was horrible, but imo she isn't personally to blame. She was being controlled and perhaps even ab*sed by a destructive cult, and it would be ridiculous to suggest that she had any real agency in that situation. Her children were victims of her illness and her religion, and so was she. I strongly believe that she deserves our compassion and hope that she has been able to heal and deconstruct the toxic beliefs she once had.
This take can be kind of controversial but I completely agree. People will usually say that, even though Andrea was extremely mentally ill, she is still a bad person and is at least somewhat to blame for killing her kids - that mental illness isn’t an excuse to murder your children. I don’t agree with that at all. Andrea barely even knew what she was doing, she was a victim too. I don’t know why people are so intent on holding very mentally ill people accountable for their actions when they had no control over them whatsoever. She tried her best to get help and she knew those kids weren’t safe around her, she clearly cared about them. People will say her mental illness isn’t an excuse for her actions, but I think it is an excuse. What else was she supposed to do? How does she bear any blame when she was hallucinating and barely even knew what was going on?
@@YIPPEYAY1 I think there are a few different reasons why people are so obsessed with saying Andrea Yates is a bad person. For one thing, a lot of them don't understand what psychosis is or how it affects a person. They hear "mental illness" and think of things like anxiety and (non-psychotic) depression. Another reason is that they are just... how do I put this?... not very good at thinking critically. They have a strong emotional reaction to children being murdered, and instead of considering the complex circumstances that led up to the event, they just want to say the perpetrator is evil and call it a day. And last, but certainly not least, they are ableist. People have a _really_ hard time being empathetic or compassionate towards mentally ill people. It's a reactionary attitude not too far off saying "social justice has gone too far" or claiming that white men are oppressed. The difference here is that saying "mental illness can be an explanation but not an excuse" has the veneer of a principled, responsible attitude, and on its face, it _is_ mostly true. But it's morphed from something said within mental illness communities about a responsibility to make things right when you've done wrong into a cliché used as (ironically) an excuse to be completely unempathetic towards mentally ill people and disregard any mitigating factors about their behavior.
I love the Turpin children. From the moment the news first broke, their story and Jordan's bravery was absolutely inspiring. There were tears in my eyes for that whole interview, both sad and happy, especially when she talked about Justin Bieber. I don't know why, it struck such a chord about how universally strong and resilient kids are, how every child deserves to be a kid and have that part of then protected.
If it makes anybody feel better about the Collins's, there's no way a baby in the NICU with parents behaving the way they did aren't being referred to the appropriate agencies by the mandated reporters in that hospital.
Jen, I really appreciate how respectful and careful you were with such a sensitive topic. You’ve been one of my favorite creators for about a year now 💕
Even if the topic is scary or one I normally avoid (child abuse of any kind), I know I’m safe here. I know Jen will be very careful and respectful with her words. This is the first time I’ve been willing to hear the Turpin story, and having Jen hold my hand while she told it helped so much ❤️
My heart hurts for Andrea Yates. I have 2 toddler 14 months apart and I’m beyond overwhelmed and I don’t have psychosis or debilitating mental illness. Her husband failed his family. RIP Yates babies.
One thing that we can all do that I learned from Emily D. Baker's coverage of the Duggar trial is look into local laws on mandated reporting! In Arkansas apparently clergy are exempt from mandated reporting if someone discloses abuse to a clergy person as part of the "priest-penitent relationship." Changing these types of laws benefits everyone in the long term. Also Jen, you look fantastic today!
Bobye Holt is not clergy, therefore, there was no assumption of privacy. Women aren't allowed to hold ANY positions in the IBLP. The Judge's ruling had noting to do w/ mandatory reporting OR priest-penitent relationship. Also, privilege is not absolute and may be waived either by express consent of the penitent or by operation of law in specifically enumerated instances involving minors or instances of physical or mental abuse. The judge can order the clerrgy to testify. Keep in mind that before the actual trial begins there is an evidentiary hearing, each side knows who will be called to testify. There would be an objection for the clergy and the Judge would take the clergy, the pre-trial notes into chambers and discuss, then a ruling would be made by the judge based on if the info is critical to the case. I hope this makes sense, I tried to be brief so you didn't have to read a book. If you have any questions I'm glad to answer. Take care.
Yes. In Rhode Island, EVERY adult is a mandated reporter. In other states I've lived, it's typically anyone working with children, like medical professionals, mental health professionals, teachers, etc. Not sure about clergy, though. Wow. You're right, the laws must change and child abuse awareness training should be mandatory for almost all jobs.
@@VeroSCIA hello and thank you for such a detailed response! In this case I'm not talking about the specifics of the Duggar case but rather the law in Arkansas regarding exemptions from mandated reporting. The relevant exemption, which I've pulled from the RAINN website: "Except to the extent that the clergy member has acquired knowledge of the suspected child maltreatment through communication required to be kept confidential pursuant to the religious discipline of the relevant denomination or faith or received the knowledge of the suspected child maltreatment from the alleged offender in the context of a statement of omission." Of course voters in each state can choose what they want their laws to look like, as Emily often says. I personally believe that clergy should be mandated reporters under all circumstances in cases of suspected child abuse. Changing laws like these in Arkansas and other places would (hopefully) help children long before cases go to trial by getting them assistance faster and potentially lessening the period and severity of the abuse. Applied to the Duggar case it would be: imagine how the outcome may have differed if Mr. Holt was in fact a mandated reporter and had reported Josh's abuse immediately (suspend your disbelief on this one, I know the IBLP is full of unreported abuse). Does this make sense?
Andrea Yates was a victim of Rusty Yates personal interpretation of Christian fundamentalism. What's fucked up is that when Andrea was locked away, out of sight and out of mind for Rusty, he divorced her, remarried another woman and started knocking her up right away. He was such a fundementalist Christian until he wanted to divorce Andrea. It's hypocritical. I honestly feel bad for Andrea. She was a victim and was suffering to obey her husband and have as many babies as HE wanted. I'm definitely not condoning or excusing Andrea Yates' actions but she wasn't lucid or fully in control of herself when she killed her children.
Andrea Yates case is honestly heartbreaking. She asked for help over and over but Rusty wouldn't allow it. She herself even told him she didn't feel safe to be with the kids but Rusty wanted her to learn to handle the kids
In this video I called Louise Turpin "psychotic" which was inappropriate and stigmatizing.
So I trimmed that part out.
I apologize to anyone I have offended
@Fundie Fridays Jen, in case anyone is unaware, orgs like the FFRF, or Freedom From Religion Foundation, are places with experience in helping people find the resources they need to heal. Whether you have experienced religious trauma, or simply have questions about deconstructing, they can offer support and resources.
Hope this is ok, not sure where you stand on advancing resource suggestions, I know it can be delicate. But I know that especially in the US, it can feel lonely to even acknowledge many of these situations, let alone know where to start 🤗 ❤️
@@Time_Is_Left You are an absolute angel. Thank you!
Jen, thank you for always working to do better and be better! We STAN!
I really feel that Randy Yates should have faced some kind of charges. Not, you know, gone on with his life, remarried and had another kid. But that's what seems to have happened.
I know these kinda of videos are hard on your heart but always remember if you don't get the truth & facts out who will always take care of you #1 and for those who run their keyboard keys says so much more about them!
Hi Jen. I'm an ex Quiver-full mum and probably count as one of your older viewers. I'm 44 and have 8 children. My husband and I walked away from our faith and church when my oldest was 12 and our youngest were twins age 2, that was 12 years ago Your channel has been a huge comfort to me. you make me laugh and Ive cried too. I'm so so grateful that I got my family out of there. Please never stop! You're appreciated more than you know...Tess from NZ
hope life is treating you well 💙 sending love from scotland
Hello from the USA to a fellow old Jennonite!
Congratulations on your escape. If it makes you feel any better, I’m 52 (but no kids for many reasons). 🙃
I’m glad your husband also left the faith with you. It probably saves a lot of stress from having to help your kids on your own.
Kia kaha, kia maia, kia manawanui from another former quiverfull kiwi ❤️
I grew up Quiverfull, the oldest daughter of 11. My dad used to say if each of us have "only" 4 kids, he would have 44 grandchildren. He was prone to odd rants, with statements such as "the only purpose of marriage is to produce children," "you have a moral obligation to produce at least three children - one to replace each parent, and another for the growth of the human population" and "overpopulation is impossible - the human race will one day live in skyscrapers." When I was 10, my mom invited me to attend one of her home births, stating "you could very well be married and having your own baby in only 8 years!" Attending the birth was a terrifying experience and had the opposite effect than the one my parents were hoping for. Our life as a huge homeschool fundy family had many good times and beautiful moments, but there was also rampant mental illness and abuse. Most of us are grown up now, and so far there is not a single grandchild.
Oldest of nine, from an IBLP family. I'm sorry you had to go through that, too.
Keep strong and call out crazy where ever you are.
My husband is from a family of 13 and most of those children did not have any children themselves. The few that did had only 1 or two. All of them believe that having more then 4 children close together is child abuse.
I'm from a "small" Quiverfull family of 6. I was taught that my job, as a woman, to cook, clean, have babies, and raise them the same way I was raised. Out of all of us, there are only 2 grandchildren, none are from me and my husband. We have not intention of having children. I'm sorry for everything you went through.
I admire your strength.
Hearing that the Turpin children escaped only to be subjected to further abuse and horrible and unsafe living situations is what broke me. Their family failed them, their foster families failed them, social services failed them, their "undisclosed public guardian" failed them, and even their communities have failed them. If they aren't able to receive the proper help, living conditions, and therapy they so need and deserve, I fear for what the future holds for them and any future generations -- generational trauma is very real and is hard to overcome without proper healing and intervention. After a lifetime of pain and hardships, I truly hope that they all receive the love, compassion, care, and _actual_ help that they all deserve.
I've read that neighbors would sometimes catch their shadows through the windows. Doing bizarre things like marching for hours in the dark. I guess they wanted to mind their business.
If Jordan didn't find a window to the world she might not have known anything was wrong.. which sounds unbelievable but trust me, if it's all you know...
I can't even say how brave she was for getting help. I ran away to the park once and was beaten so bad that I never left the house again. She knew that even worse punishment would await her if she was caught, but she put that aside and tried anyway. If she didn't have those photos she might not have been believed, so she was smart AND brave. But a child shouldn't have to save herself.
Communities need to step up and make it their business if they see something.
@@sentient_baby_carrot By that point Jordan didn't care if she got killed for running away. She was prepared to take that risk as she couldn't bear living in that house anymore. She didn't even know where she was as she wasn't told what her address was or given a map and the police didn't believe her at first.
Their foster families didn't fail them, their hands were tied by judges with a fetish for "reunification" over the safety of children.
@@wmdkitty The foster families were almost as abusive as the Turpins so they did fail the younger children.
@@wmdkitty If that was the reason, talk about out-of-control conflicts of interest!
the turpins is such a haunting case. They even have their own accent from being so isolated
I just need to bring up that the cops asked this girl who was probably emaciated, cold, hungry, and terrified if she had *pictures* of her siblings tied up.
Yeeah, I caught that too. So weird. I wonder what he would have said/done if she didn't have any pics...
@@notsogreatreset4476 sent her back. a cab
The cop probably thought she was a on drugs and/or was a rebellious teenager. They probably would have sent her back home….talked to her parents and then god knows what the parents would have done to her after the cops left.
I will say that due to her specific circumstances (ie the speech issues they have from almost zero schooling) it does make her initially sound like she’s either on a substance or mentally unstable. If someone ran up to you saying all that with having zero knowledge of who she is you’d want proof too. That being said it’s probable cause. If she didn’t have pictures, they’d have to get a warrant (which they probably obtained regardless but it would of just extended the timeline).
Gotta echo the other commenters on this one. I don't think any of us could have an appropriate initial response if we were thrust into that situation, even a trained police officer.
Another point about Andrea Yates is that for a period of several years, they were living in a semi-converted schoolbus. Imagine the stress of trying to raise several tiny children in a schoolbus, while suffering from post-partum psychosis. Oh, and meanwhile, Rusty has divorced her, remarried, and started filling a new quiver with children.
Yates and his new wife only had one son, she divorced him in 2015.
Iv always felt bad for her. Yes she killed but she 1000% believed there was no other choice. I am sure she didn’t want to but felt she had to.
OMG I had no idea. What a complete loser he is.
Yeah and during that time she was taking care of her father who had altzhimers (I don’t know how to spell it so I’m sorry that it’s wrong)
@@packnetadaija She had far too much responsibility on her shoulders. Poor woman had no time to recover.
he didn't fail to realize her illness, he intentionally ignored it because she was easy to control and abuse. thats my thoughts
Ansolutely
Before the murder, Andrea actually WAS a really great person. She was internet friends with my mother, on a quilting forum in the late 90s. My mum had even talked to her on the phone about their mental health struggles. When this news came out, it destroyed my mum’s spirit. She always felt so terrible for Andrea.
I feel terrible for her children. It’s appalling how many people knew of her mental health and yet those children were murdered. She never should have been a parent, and Christians allowed this to happen.
Great people don't kill children
@@kukusenka I’m not gonna debate PPP with you. I’m not gonna re-establish a past tense of someone that you never even knew. But I will leave you with this little morsel: great people can give way to the most horrific things.
@@kukusenkayou clearly don’t understand how mental illness works, so why even speak?
@@kukusenka I disagree. Severe mental illness can impact anyone regardless of gender, character, age, moral fiber etc. I sincerely hope neither you nor anyone you love faces such challenges ❤.
My mother had postpartum psychosis after having me and what she described was absolutely terrifying. She said she'd look at me in my cot and see bugs crawling all over me and over the cot sides. Because of my mother's history I was watched like a hawk by my midwives during and after my pregnancies. Fortunately I was fine but if I wasn't and I had experienced that then no way would I have more kids. The patriarchal movement kills women and children and they just don't care.
I suffered from post partum psychosis after having my youngest daughter at age 40, a couple years after the Yates tragedy. It came out of the blue. The nightmares started the following day after giving birth, scaring me so badly I didn’t sleep for 3 straight months. I was hospitalized before my daughter was 2 weeks old, followed by 3 more hospitalizations the first 6 months. And yes, your Mom is correct, it is horrifying. Everything about your “normal” self is beyond your reach and life becomes a hellscape you can’t understand. I feel so much for your Mom, and even though I felt all along I would never harm my baby, I felt for Andrea Yates.
I hope you and your Mom are ok by now, and she knows that she had nothing to be sorry or feel regrets about, even though as a mother, those feelings are hard to avoid.
I experienced drug- induced psychosis a couple years ago and i still have flashbacks. It was traumatic. I can't imagine the torture of going through that as a mom or for such a long time
Exactly these men in these religions don't take account on how much stress it can put on your body and mental health they just see women as an object & property. They don't see them as a human being who gets tired as well
I have PTSD from the birth of my daughter and following postpartum psychosis. I hallucinated her dying every time somebody touched her and was legitimately losing my mind. Sending love to anyone who's dealt with it too ❤️
My mom has described what seems to me so obviously postpartum psychosis that no one ever treated her for (and my dad obviously resented her for forever although I'm sure he didn't do fuckall to help and probably made it worse) after my little sister was born. I thank God we're all ok, but I feel SO bad for her every time I think about it, and I also know that what my life was like at 2 years old is probably still a part of what's affecting me at 37. She's described "thinking the house was on fire," among other things. Just horrible stuff to deal with, and to be alone with two babies...
There are no words to properly describe my hatred for the Turpins. The husband with his Little Dutchboy haircut and the wife looking all like she was just a helpless victim herself. Why would anyone keep having children just to torture them? It makes no sense.
It actually does in a perverse way. I am convinced that some people have children, pets, and/or spouses so the have someone they can dominate and abuse.
I have a lot of compassion for Andrea Yates. The people closest to her made it clear that she didn’t want more children and was afraid that giving birth would induce more psychosis, but Rusty coerced her. She was 100% not of her right mind. Psychosis isn’t just depression or even just mania. It’s paranoia and an absolute conviction that the delusions they’re experiencing are reality. Unless you’ve witnessed someone experiencing psychosis or experienced it yourself, it’s hard to express how horrifying it is and how much it consumes a person’s mind and behavior. I don’t know anything about her character, but that isn’t really relevant. She thought, in that moment, that she was doing right for her children. It’s so deeply sad.
I totally agree. I think Rusty is largely responsible but then I wonder how brainwashed he was. The whole situation is beyond sad and was entirely avoidable had they just listened to their doctors. I wonder how completely out of it Andrea was in the days prior to the murders and can't imagine how Rusty rationalized allowing her to be anywhere near the kids, even with the his mother coming over to help.
I lived not far from Andrea. As of last February, that house is still empty. Rusty remarried and had more kids.
@@leslielousma7913 Oh boy. I bet those kids are doing Just Fine. 🙄😬
Hers is the extreme effect of quiverfull thought. Man in charge, woman submissive with her legs open and pregnant, babies on hip. Yuck. I never met a QF woman who wasn't exhausted and stressed.
Yeah, it's actually really disappointing to hear that Jen said she doesn't think Andrea Yates is a good person as a person that has a psychotic illness. Like, not that you have to think she is, obviously I don't know her, but the implication that because of something that happened during a psychotic episode you're not good or bad is just really off-putting and feels very... not understanding of what the reality of psychosis is like, especially combined with Jen giving a poor definition of postpartum psychosis. But the Andrea Yates and Vince Li cases are cases I understandably get really touchy about considering 75% of the time I see people talking about them online there are comments about all people who experience psychosis need to be executed, so, like, I might be thinking too much about it.
Edit: And then Jen misuses the word psychotic in a stigmatizing way later in the video. Yeah, no, I'm just really unhappy with this. This isn't a place I expected to feel uncomfortable as a person with schizoaffective disorder, but I guess that's where I'm at.
Andrea Yates is such a tragic case because this could have been all been prevented if Rusty didn't leave her alone. The fact that he remarried and had another child so quickly too after all that happened just showed that he is a sick bastard. As far as I know Andrea has repeatedly denied going to hearings to bring her back into society, and I think that's for the best. She's living in a place that understands her mental state and she's safe.
Rusty is a brainwashed enabler high on male supremacy and access to sex.
We talked about her case in my criminal justice class when talking about the insanity plea and in my opinion she's a viticim too. If I remember right, rusty said he thought of Andrea having Mary, the youngest, as driving a car when you know an accident is possible. Doctors told her not to have more kids for her mental heath but rusty wanted more. The fact he had no punishment is sad but I'm at least glad Andrea is away from him and getting proper care, just wish it wasn't because she had a mental break and killed her kids but cause she got it herself for her and family's safety
I think provided she gets the treatment she needs and a approriate safety plan is put in place with monitoring and support she absoluetly should have the chance to go back into the community to live her life.
Obviously she would not be allowed to become pregnant again but if she stays on her medication and continues with her treatment plan and is assessed to not be a threat to herself or others then I don't see why she should be instiutionalised for the rest of her life.
Yup. I'm sure that was her plan. She just wanted to escape the miserable life she had and now she's pretty much scarred by the "real " world or well the world she was living in.
I have so much empathy after recently revisiting the Andrea Yates case. There is just so much that the public never knew. The way her mind was manipulated by her husband and religion is so sad. As a mom how went through mind post partum depression, I can't imagine the hell she was going through. My husband was so supportive and helpful with every aspect of caring for our child and here she is barely hanging on and Rusty is trying to keep her pregnant while not helping so much as to change a diaper.
The Andrea Yates case still shakes me. Honestly her husband should have went to jail too for leaving the kids alone with her KNOWING that she wasn’t well enough to care for them. Also, if the media had exposed Quiverfull back then, maybe we wouldn’t even know the Duggars, Bates, etc. now.
He dose not care,, she is just a machine,, she was supposed to snap out of it serve and to be bred by him.
I have always thought the same thing! I feel he is more guilty than she is.
Yes. He was guilty of child neglect and endangerment.
I remember this case and what a tragedy. I blame Russell, I can still remember him doing interviews. He is the one to blame for pushing Andrea over-the-top….very sad!
agreed i feel bad for her.
My grandmother told me about these methods for raising a child. She didn't use them on my dad and he grew up a wonderful, loving man. Also, she was kicked out of the church for cutting her hair and wearing make up. She was a REBEL! Love her so much!
She sounds like a bad ass!
Go grandma!! ❤❤❤
Go Granny!!
Your grandma sounds awesome!
Whether you have kids or not, I guess she's still... a great grandmother.
I believe Rusty Yates realized what Andrea was going through, but it was inconvenient for him, so he just ignored it. Being in any way inconvenient is a major sin in the fundamentalist community, Rusty was the head of the family, so things were the way he wanted them to be. Don't confuse him with the facts. He never seemed very upset about the dealth of his kids, more about how his wife's actions would reflect on him.
I bet JimBob would have done the same thing if Michelle had experienced post partum psychosis.
*Exactly!*
exactly! in his mind, he could always have more kids to replace them but he couldn’t deal with having his reputation tarnished as a good christian patriarch
Don't know why he would be upset; it's not like he helped raise them.
I believe those men are narcissists, and their wife and kids aren’t actually people, just props for them.
I hate it when abusers start crying and apologizing for what they did. They are not sorry for the abuse just sorry for the fact they got caught. It makes my gut churn. If you are so sorry why in the HELL did you do it in the first place?
The fact that he said “I never meant to cause my children harm. I’m sorry IF I hurt them” yada yada. Still taking no accountability. And the newscaster like “they seem sooooo guilty. Can’t you see how sorry they are 🥺” like, sir, that is NOT the point. The fact that they did this to their children at all negates any regret or guilt they feel, imo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@johanabi that “if” made my blood boil like wtf
Often it's the parent refusing to unpack the abuse they did and just think as long as they don't repeat actions they're a perfect parent.
Which is why they especially take any comment about their child so strongly, because they take it as an attack or 'you're just as bad as your parents' when it can be a simple learning opportunity or just understanding a new pov :(
...speaking from unpacking my own parental unit upbringing 😅
That's what I was thinking. Abusers actually called out and facing consequences, in my experience, they're never sorry. They're sorry they got caught.
What sucks is that there are times when abusers regret what they did and actively work to change. But they’re overshadowed by those who will just keep hurting other people
As someone who has a religious form of ocd called scrupulosity, I unfortunately understand Andrea Yates’ thought process. Before getting therapy and medication, I spent years wishing I had died young before I became so corrupted. Thankfully, I found a therapist who just told me point blank that I have religious trauma and helped me to work past these dangerous thoughts in my head before I likely would’ve killed myself.
i’m glad you got the help you needed! i felt this because i have ocd too and i have a lot of guilt about not being as religious as i used to be because of it
I have the same form of OCD. It was debilitating until I got into treatment. I can’t imagine having children in the middle of trying to cope with it.
Oh wow, I had the same thought when I was a teenager. I sometimes wished I had died as a small child because then I would've been "perfect" and remembered as an innocent child rather than a worthless teenager. I'm glad I was able to get through that messed up idea and I'm glad that you were able to overcome that as well.
I deal with this too. It's gotten better as a result of therapy, medication, and community. Learning that scrupulosity was an actual mental illness and not actually my conscience was life changing.
I’m not defending what Andrea did, but of course, her controlling, patriarchal, husband, who used God to con her into his will, and knock her up as much as he wanted, despite the fact that she knew she shouldn’t be having more children, was left blameless! That poor woman was literally psychotic, and trying not to make things worse, and knew she might hurt her kids! HE KNEW she might hurt their children, but left her alone anyways! He should be in jail too!
His tears on the video made me mad. She has asked for help, her family has asked for help and HE decided to just go back to work. Leaving her to deal with her issues alone. This man let his wife and his children down.
Thank you! He is just as responsible! Had he actually cared about his wife he wouldn't have made her time and time again get pregnant, knowing her fear of hurting the children. If they had stopped having kids and if she kept taking her medicine I doubt this would have ever happened.
And now that she's no longer suffering from post partum psychosis, she feels so guilty about what she did that she's waiving her yearly release reviews from the hospital she's in. I honestly feel terrible for her, both her husband and her own brain betrayed her completely and kids died for it.
her pastor was a nasty piece of work too, he preached that women were evil, the world is evil, her actions were influenced by her church's teachings
@@andreakoroknai1071 How awful. I don't understand why these men are allowed to become pastors. Much of what they preach is not Biblical. They are monsters.
While the loss of children is tragic, it’s also heartbreaking to me that Andrea Yates was trying to get help and trying to prevent her psychosis from harming her children was stopped by her husband and religious beliefs. It’s heart breaking that the Turpin children are or did still experience abuse after escape.
I 100% blame her husband. He failed to protect his children and to give his wife the care she needed. I TRULY hate Rusty
@@chelsearenee838 It's too bad he didn't have to face any legal consequences.
That’s so sad
What had to happen for them to care about her?
Yes! She begged for help. She HERSELF told Rusty she was scared to be alone with the kids. He said she "had to learn to handle the kids alone eventually' she he left her alone
@@zuglymonster I guess he thought she should pull herself up by her shoe strings, but her shoe strings were broken. She couldn't even handle the responsibility she had, and he wanted to pile more on by giving her even more children and would still expect her to manage them all by herself. He refused to accept the reality of her issues and wanted to precede own with getting his ideal family. That's where being idealistic instead of realistic can become inhumane sometimes.
I really don't understand how many people can just flippantly have children. I'm 26 and worry about the responsibility.
As someone who wet the bed as a child because of an actual medical condition that went undiagnosed for many years their approach to bed wetting is so troubling and scary. I would have spent entire weeks outside in the cold drenched and alone. Barbaric.
I can totally relate to this. It's terrifying to think if we were born into different families we might've died from exposure for something as trivial as bed wetting...
@@amandah.9893 100%
My family was fundamentalist and believed some dangerous things but this was too far for them.
☹️
I completely agree! I started wetting the bed at age five after my family immigrated to the U.S. It's perfectly normal for kids that age to wet the bed after big life changes. My beloved father found the solution- he woke up every night in the middle of the night and took me to the bathroom before I could wet myself, until it became my own habit. That's what good parents do. Make you feel safe and secure and sacrifice their own comfort to ensure their children are well.
I was also raised fundie, and am a gay adult and it was hard for me growing up... And I'm glad that at least my Mom was never this unhinged and eventually grew out of it all together. 😰😰😰
I remember being a kid hearing about my fellow homeschool fundie kids talking about ways their parents were abusing them. Except they didn’t call it abuse, it was normal to us. One girl I knew was in her early 20s and her parents refused to let her get a job, have secular friends, or even leave the house. She had to run away on horseback. That story confused me for years but now I admire her bravery. I always wonder where she ended up.
run away on horse back. jaw drop. I hope she made it some place safe. That is the hardest shit I have ever read.
@@graceannbloom7267 I think her parents expected her to just be their live-in babysitter for… ever I guess. These were people with 10+ kids thinking they were doing the world good. In reality we were all poor. I guess my family was a bit different, my mom wasn’t crazy religious. I was homeschooled because my parents were convinced columbine was going to happen in our small town, so they kept me home. I had zero friends so they enrolled me in church things were the rural area homeschool kids. I met a lot of genuinely good kids that were made to feel guilty about being human and wanting to do kid stuff.
I’ve never forgotten about the girl that ran away on horseback. I remember her mom giving a testimony at church about her daughters sinful ways and how it’s strengthened the rest of the family’s relationship with god. So weird. I hope they never found her.
@@calliekittyvideos That's further cementing my distrust and suspicion of the rural US. Do these villages even have one remotely good-natured person in a single position of authority?
@Alexandria Essays you can make it out! I'm so proud of you for sticking with it. Things do get better when you get out on your own.
@Alexandria Essays I hope you are able to get out and grow and do what you need to do.
I never saw any fundie kids living in complete squalor but I did know quite a few who were abused. After I had gone to public school (10th grade) I joined an after school college prep program and one of the fundie girls I knew qualified for it also through good grades and living below the poverty line. She and I became good friends and she delved into her life at home, including showing me pictures of her back from her dad whipping her with a switch. I got a leader involved and I didn’t see her again after that. I don’t know what happened to her except she popped in my FB “people you may know” a year ago and she’s married. I hope she found a partner to treat her right but I know how cycles of abuse work. Sorry I’m so long winded!
No child should ever be punished for wetting the bed or any other bathroom related issue. Breaking the will of a child is beyond cruel, but that’s how parents like the Pearls control them.
The bravery of Jordan Turpin is so great that it is almost incomprehensible.
It's RUMORED (that's the key word) that JonBenet's mom (if you don't remember she was a 6 year old girl who was found murdered in her parents home in the 90s and is still unsolved) beat her because she wet her bed. Anyway thanks for coming to my TED talk
The Pearl's book has also been blamed for the deaths of several children. Most notably a girl who was adopted from Africa.
Well said!
I have a 2 year old and there is this weird thing in the mommy world where it's a competition to potty train your kids really early, whether they are ready or not. Even moms who aren't in weird religious groups. It just seems cruel to put a child through that when their bladder and brain just aren't ready.
@@pcbassoon3892 agreed! Stress and trauma can cause children to struggle even more and even take some steps back when potty training… because they are tiny and none of it is anything they can help!
Even older children can have these issues, and they should be helped not harmed by their parents and other adults.
Can we just quickly note...she was 16 and he was 23 when they married. She was being sexually abused as a CHILD then had to give him as many children as possible. Many times 90% of the blame should be the husband 9% the wife's parents and 1% the mom.
who are you talking about?
@@owl.feathers Louise Turpin. Not only did she meet David when she was 15, her own mother had been (according to Louise's sister Theresa) selling both of them to the grandfather for drug money prior to David entering the picture. Not only did Louise Turpin grow up shockingly poor, in a region known for it's lack of oversight by both social workers and law enforcement, she was trafficked from one adult male to another. I would be shocked if she DIDN'T have mental health issues.
Yup. Classic case of the abused becoming the abuser.
@@pansprayers technically Louise and David Turpin met when she was 10 and he was 16/17…..which is even more twisted. Both are monsters, but I feel like Louise evilness was created by the trauma she had and David was a sick abuser who was just evil and took advantage of her trauma and then gave all of his 13 kids trauma.
@@emilychristina3172 she was 25 when they met.
When Jen said To Train up a Child, I initially heard it as "to trample a child" and sadly that's accurate
I feel bad for laughing but that was hilarious
@@emilychristina3172 bless you for keeping a good eye on your charges, we recently had to call social services on a family on the building and we were surprised they didn't remove the child (substance abuse, neglect) I wonder if in these cases they come back to have a look at certain intervals. I know the system in my country is so broken as well. As citizens we really have to be on the lookout
I heard the same thing lmfao and I was like.... hold up let me check my ears
I live in the area the Yates lived. I was “treated” at the same mental health facility as her. (It’s really the only place in the area) For years after the Yates tragedy happened I would regularly run out of medication, go into detox/withdrawals, was misdiagnosed and shuffled from doctor to doctor. At least one doctor who I saw, was one of the ones who treated her.
Just last year teenagers in the children facility set their dorm on fire in protest of treatment.
She was really failed all around. When she had enough clarity, she told people what she was afraid she would do. She asked for help.
@Alyssa the only thing that the US can peg as a "dependent" at 21 is health insurance - you're free to find a job with health benefits so you can cut the strings to your parents. Also, under HIPPA they can't legally ask your doctor for any treatments you get (birth control, anti-depressants, etc) unless you list them. your parents lost the right to have them spill information when you turned 18. The only thing the insurance company will do in the EOB is list that they paid for a procedure at a certain facility - it wont state what procedure. (For all your parents need to know - it could be a zit being popped.)
@@AmyC28713 no, you're a "dependant" for college in the USA until mid 20s, too- parent/guardian financial info & signature required for FAFSA (student aid grants & loans)
Is that hospital adjacent to Clear Lake Hospital or whatever it’s now called?
Sounds like the mental health system there is broken. When conflicting with fundamentalism psychiatry suffers. They openly defy psychiatry as of the devil.
@@leslielousma7913 yep
It’s interesting to hear the news anchor talking about the Andrea’s story. “She recovered from suicide and seem to be fine.” Sign of the times, I hope.
Attempted suicide is the strongest predictor for a completed suicide. That line really pissed me off...
@@l6318 that made me upset too. And when he said she “slipped further into mental illness” I just don’t know why but that made me upset
The anchor was relating what Rusty had said so not his own phrasing
Can’t watch anything of Jordan Turpin without crying. Can you imagine how goddamn brave she was? How much love she felt for her siblings that she escaped and saved them, after having been strangled before? It’s truly humbling. Great episode also Jen, you’ve been so rounded & grounded in your approach to these subjects and it’s so refreshing. Big ups to you and James.
Dude, I had never heard of the Turpins, and I am horrified and crying as I type this.... Those poor children. I want to metaphorically strangle their parents... It's an insane thing to hear about and witness and even IMAGINE living a life of just suffering.
It’s beautiful the love she has for her siblings. She is an inspiring individual.
Despite all the evil we learned about in this video, Jordan's bravery and willingness to sacrifice herself reminds me of the potential for beauty, selflessness, and goodness that people can possess. We should all look to her as an example of how to be a good person.
is it just me, or does jordan turpin look like AOC?
@@Ass_of_Amalek A palette swap of her anyway.
To gaucher: Pity there's nothing the court system can do to label the Turpin parents as lifelong murder risks. All of the cities' failures could easily provide that evil couple an opportunity to strike again someday, whichever crime they're compelled to commit.
Andrea was just as much a victim as her children, as far as I'm concerned. She was only valued for her ability to bear children, and she literally thought she was saving her children from Hell.
Exactly, and I doubt she would be where she is now if she hadn't been a slave to religion and the men of the family
I agree completely, and always wished Rusty would have been charged with SOMETHING…. child endangerment maybe?
He was told unequivocally DO NOT LEAVE HER ALONE WITH THE CHILDREN. He and his punchable face thought he knew better, and couldn’t let her be dependent upon anyone 🙄 although SHE CLEARLY NEEDED HELP.
He ignites so much rage in me
YES YES YES!
Iirc, she had also said to certain people that she didn't want to get pregnant again, she knew it wasn't good for her.
It's so painful, but not impossible, to see the string of "oh shit I was raised/trained to be a sex doll baby maker" to "I have to save these kids and the only freedom is through death".
People like to forget that someone in psychosis usually cannot think logically/clearly.
I'm so angry her husband faced nothing. I'm so angry she had to be the sacrificial lamb to get us to where we are now with PPD/PPP. She needed help. Real, supportive, help. Not to be treated like a fucking dairy cow.
APOLOGIES FOR THE LANGUAGE I GOT HEATED.
Fuck the patriarchy.
Looking at the video again, I woudn’t be surprised the husband actually drowned the children as discipline and let Andrea take the fall … He looked almost happy Reading the statement…
Just a quick note: Mental health meds have come a long way and many of our newer anti depressant and anti anxiety meds can be taken during pregnancy and breastfeeding! So if you are pregnant and have mental health concerns don't be afraid to talk to your Dr, they can help you find a regimen that will keep you and baby safe
Thank God but esp all the scientists and patient testers that made that possible dude
Andreas story still makes me so sad.
I was raised fundamentalist. I do consider my family to be a quiver full family, I only have 7 siblings, but two were born with congenital heart defects, one is special needs and one passed away. My parents still had 5 more kids after the first because they left god in charge. (My grandmother recently passed away and her obituary said she had over 200 children/grand children/great grandchildren, so if that doesn’t say anything about the way I was raised idk what does).
Then I started having kids, three back to back with 16 and 18 months between them. I suffered from PPD but it went untreated because my church taught that mental illness was caused by sin. I remember reading Andrea’s story after my third daughter was born and I was suffering with intrusive thoughts of hurting my baby. I saw myself in her and was able to turn away from the harmful beliefs that were pushing me in the same direction. I’m now treated for depression, anxiety, and ADHD and am no longer a Christian.
Thank you for highlighting her story and the underlying mental health and religious causes for what happened.
I'm so sorry for the traumatic experience you had. I wish you peace and happiness. I turned my back on church and found God! Have your own relationship with him in your way if you choose. I wouldn't trust a "christian" as far as I could throw them. ❤️
So glad you found help 💜💜💜
I am so sorry that happened to you and I hope you continue in your healing journey. I hope nothing but the best and thank you for telling your story. 💜💜💜💜
❤️💗 I’m so sorry. This is so real and you didn’t deserve it
I’m so sorry you experienced all that but I’m so glad you find a way to get the treatment you needed and deserve. Wish you nothing but happiness and healing and have so much respect for you for having the courage to get help.
As a parent who had PPP, the thoughts in your head are NOT your own. I kept hearing a baby crying even when one wasn't in the house. I kept having intrusive thoughts that I was going to do nothing but harm this child, that I was a fuck up, that because I was abused that means I had to be abusive as well. I just wanted nothing but to die. I sought help immediately, spent some time in psychiatric care, and 11 years later we (my little boy and I) are doing great.
(Also for any scared parents with PPD or PPP: DHS was never even considered being called because I sought out help. If you're afraid to reach out for that reason: Everyone was SUPER supportive and helpful. The OB knows this is a VERY real thing that claim lives. And if they are dismissive towards you, FIND ANOTHER OB or go to the ER. That is NOT your fault and they are NOT a good or safe doctor. )
Oh wow! I’m so sorry for what you went through.
Excuses, excuses. Take some responsibility for yourself.
@@wmdkitty the commenter you responded to did, she asked for help. And made sure she got it, and advises everyone else to do the same. What part of this is 'not taking responsibility'?
@@wmdkitty I literally went to a pyschward for 3 days impatient. I sought therapy and help. I got medication. I got better.
But, you know what Shawna? You could take some responsibility about your need to punch down at people with mental health illnesses. Maybe crack the binding of some psychology textbooks, perhaps? Learn some basic kindness. Crawl out of the swamps of Ben Shapiro's wet dreams and realize that what you doing is a desperate cry for help and attention that the internet just isn't responsible for. You can do better too, Shawna. But walking away from trolling the internet is the first step in your recovery!
The doctors know that if your first reaction to hearing phantom babies is "I'm in trouble, I need help", then you've got good reality-testing and you're likely to respond well to treatment. They want to get you stabilized on meds ASAP, get you into counseling, and they see it as a really good sign that you've asked for help, because it means that even when you weren't thinking straight, you still managed to make good decisions and protect yourself and your family. "I need help" is a good sign. It's the "I don't need help; I'm fine" that worries them. People like you, who detect it and ask for help immediately, are at much lower risk precisely because they are taking responsibility for a problem they're having and taking steps to solve it.
“Im sorry IF I hurt you” classic narcissistic parent line
Sorry you couldn't handle being chained to a bed and only eating once a day.
I caught that too. 🙄
Every time I hear that from my parents or really anyone, I want to bludgeon them with a sign with “THAT, NOT IF” covering the whole thing.
The one that sucks my soul out is when that apology is genuine but they worded it wrongly. Thanks for confusing me even further like
The Andrea Yates story convinced me to have a plan in place should I ever have children, to meet with both my regular psychiatrist/therapist as well as a postpartum psych specialist regularly during and after pregnancy. I think having frank conversations with partner/family/professionals about what to do if postpartum depression/anxiety/psychosis happens should be WAY more common and part of the education given by hospitals and birth workers.
Not everyone is going to have full psychosis after giving birth, but that doesn’t mean that other psych symptoms aren’t worth preparing for and treating if they occur.
My parents were all in on To Train Up a Child, and for it I had a terrible childhood.
Now my parents don't understand why their children have mental issues, and to quote my dad even just yesterday, "I don't understand you. It's not like you were abused."
If it's okay, could you explain your experiences? I'm trying to research things like this.
I am so sorry.
The doctor that delivered me when I was born gave my parents a copy of “how to train up a child”, my parents threw it in the garbage. Thankfully.
I am sorry what? When?
@@HopeGardner3amed Hi. Do you live in Brazil?
And changed their doctor immediately, I hope
That’s insane
My sister-in-law gave all the wives in the family a copy for Christmas one year. I read it, and then I burned it. Good on your parents for knowing it was garbage!
"I'm sorry IF I have done anything to harm my children" while in court for torture and false imprisonment is such a classic shrug off of responsibility it could only come from a fundy.
Also, if you watch a child get smacked around or walk around with clear injuries and you don't interfere, you are a bad person and are party to the abuse. Be nosey; you may save a life
Be careful about how you react. Call the police, call CPS but also keep a record of who you called, when, what you saw and heard from whom and when... If you think that calling for help will result in the kids getting help you are living in a fantasy, not in America. Write down EVERYTHING. A pattern of events that you can present to multiple parties is more likely to help than a single random call to CPS.
We need stricter homeschooling laws. It should be illegal to deny a child their right to an education
Yes. It should be completely illegal.
I was homeschooled my whole life until college and by homeschooled I mean they gave me books and expected me to teach myself. If I didn't understand something they would "attempt" to teach me which was actually them repeating themselves explain things in ways I didn't understand to them screaming at me and shaming me and making me believe I was mentally deficient. Eventually they stopped even trying to teach and I stopped going to them for help. I was put in a mail - in school program which was still just reading books myself and doing tests. I completed the subjects I was naturally decent at but the subjects I struggled the most with I was unable to get by... I stopped trying they only occasionally berated me about it but otherwise didn't care I spent most of my teen years avoiding life and hating myself for being lazy and stupid and a horrible person. I dropped out of school eventually. When I was finally an adult and moved away I got my GED I discovered I'm actually pretty smart just that you shouldn't expect children to be able to teach themselves. I had no support or proper resources growing up and I now am very intellectually curious and I love to learn. I do okay in formal environments like college but atm not pursuing a degree for mental health reasons. So basically, yeah I 1000% agree. My parents raised 5 children and the last of us 2 when my parents got tired of being actual parents they stopped trying and apparently there were no systems in place to protect us from being completely including educationally neglected
I was homeschooled and had a really positive experience, there are definitely great parents and families out there! It's such a tragedy that people abuse the privilege of home education.
@@emmelineannie5236 totally. I only ever met two people who were homeschooled, and their experiences were incredible. They did lots of traveling and were both more advanced in school than I was. People abusing the system is incredibly disturbing
@@carolinev8038 I don’t agree. It should be legal but regulated. There are places in the US, for example, in which there is a requirement for certain concept to be taught, like history and math
The Andrea Yates case is one that I can't get over. I have so many mixed feelings about it because it could've SO EASILY been prevented and she even tried to prevent it by attempting suicide. I don't think she's some monster, she's just a very sick woman that unfortunately was taken advantage of by her manipulative "religious" husband. I'm glad she's in a hospital getting constant treatment but I feel like her husband should've faced some kind of punishment because he was in his right mind and just let all of this happen after he was warned that this was a very real possibility
Hey Jen! Just wanted to say that as a Christian, I really appreciate how respectful and informative these videos are. There are some seriously twisted and dark parts of evangelical/fundamental Christianity that need to be exposed and held accountable.
as someone with a relative with severe bipolar disorder thank you for acknowledging how psychosis truly strips someone of their decision making and reality perception. someone in that state shouldn’t be expected to respond to their actions in the same way someone of sound mind would.
I’ve never seen the Yates case reframed through the culture she was embroiled in, it actually makes it make a lot more sense
She was legit out of her mind, and driven to kill. I remember thinking she was just a crazy lady who hated her kids, but when I actually looked into it she was relentlessly hammered by toxic religious impossibilities.
Every case should be looked through the cultural lens. It shows how much in life is not black and white. And how much the lack of social systems effects everyone. It .as make the results of a case more unbearable, to some, but context is nessasary. I am saying this as a survivor of csa by someone who was themselves sa as a child. It does not excuse in any way whay my biological father did, but it shows a generational pattern of sa and trauma. A pattern I was able to break. But in context, child abuse in all forms is the biggest epidemic in human history. And leads to most of our issues.
@@Droemar exactly
I have a few thoughts on the Andrea Yates story. First of all, she was a person with a disability. 2nd, taking away her meds, was like taking away a paraplegic's wheelchair. What she suffered was abuse of a person with a disability. Her husband should be in jail for abuse.
Too often people with mental health issues and disorders are rarely seen as people with disabilities, even by professionals. And I hate to say it, even some professional commenters have failed to see this aspect of the case.
Also, thank you so much for the line ‘life doesn’t stop for the traumatized.’ It doesn’t. I could not imagine what the Turpin kids feel every day but I can imagine how hard it must be to keep going every single day. The kids still have so much stacked against them and I hate that the struggles keep on coming for these people. I wish I could say that it surprises me, but unfortunately it does not.
I studied the Andrea Yates case for a criminal psychology course and the lack of concern Rusty had for her and his own children was horrendous. He had so many red flags and overt warnings as to not leave her alone with the children. I had post partum depression and that was hell so I imagine what she went through was a billion times worse. I feel empathy for her but the kids were the true victims in this case. I'd like a few minutes alone with those who follow the pearls advice harming children because they twist religion to justify it does not make it okay. I'm pagan and would NEVER harm a child. Thanks for covering these hard but necessary stories ❤️
Most of these Quiverfull couples reek of a latent violent, sadistic, and serial killer style streak. Quiverfull parents have committed so many of the worst acts of evil the modern-day US has ever seen, that I've lost all value for the couple's lives or any sympathy whenever anything bad happens to these couples.
Yup, she was afraid for her children and he managed to persuade her to ignore her judgement. I hope he's haunted by the guilt forever, if he's even capable of seeing that his children died fron his actions.
The "out of the frying pan and into the fire" situation that they found themselves in with foster homes is unfortunately all too common for children leaving homes where they have been subjected to religious abuse, having dealt with that myself.
I remember my mom reading To Train Up a Child. And as an adult I’ve realized that she was overworked and exhausted but never used a single method from it - she talked things through with me.
I believe having as many children as Quiverfulls strive to have already lends itself to an abusive situation without any additional abuse. I'm not a parent, but having just one or two children seems like a buttload of work, and these people want to have like 10 or 20? This is the kind of situation that leads to neglect and parentification of children; these kids are having their childhood stolen from them by their crazy cultist parents.
Indeed indeed, I think that you need some sort of third parent if you have more than four kids because it’s impossible to take care of them well if the ratio is that big.
I’m a mother of one and it is a lot of work. But that’s not me complaining. My child has wants, needs, opinions that differ from mine, a schedule that sometimes conflicts with mine and is often silly. And he’s perfect. Fundie parents strip their kids of their childhoods under the guise of “faith” just to satisfy their own weird breeder fetish without having to actually be good parents. It’s devastating for the older kids that get the idea of shame and hellfire so beat into their heads that they’re incapable of having their own desires. True evil, if you ask me.
Yes, even if they somehow started with a healthy family dynamic the oldest child/ren will get parentified at some point because it is impossible for often just the one parent (due to the patriarchal beliefs these families hold) to keep up with that many kids, even if both parents put in the effort, homeschooling, entertaining, cooking for, cleaning up after, soothing, etc. That many kids would be far too much, theres just no way to avoid it.
I mean just think about the whole “once you have 3 kids your parenting standards go down” and then triple or quadruple it. If for decades we have known and joked about how hard three kids is imagine how impossible 8+ kids are
Honestly. Even having one newborn is a full time job even with both parents present. So I can’t imagine how much time, effort and resources a new born plus 5 young children would need. And then forcing the older ones to care for the younger ones instead as if the parents didn’t decide to bring them into the world? It’s unbelievable.
I do have empathy for Andrea. I suffered from postpartum depression. It was 36 years ago and it was not diagnosed until later. In fact, when I explained to my doctor the symptoms I was having he said "welcome to the wonderful world of motherhood". I am not saying that she is a good person but I think that most women who have been through this can have some empathy for her.
I don't think she is a bad person at all. I never had kids and felt terrible for her. Her husband should have been charged with something. She was clearly mentally ill.
Fr I had postpartum depression with my first and took me 4 years until I was ready to have my second and while pregnant started having panic attacks weekly and after the birth of my second I made a comment to my husband about wanting to launch myself out of the car while he drives on the highway just so I could rest. He called my dr right away and took my next day and came out with medication and a whole plan and my Aunt moved with us to help me and not leave me alone. It took two years to get out of that one and I said never again. Had horrible reproductive health after as well with cysts and fibroids, this year took my uterus out and I wish I had done it sooner but drs will only consider it if you’re dying or something. It took 4 years to gey approved for a hysterectomy.
My dad and stepmom weren’t “quiver full” but they had way too many kids while being severely mentally unstable. They would always use the reasoning that people like the duggars give, “every child is a miracle” but behind closed doors those children are treated like nuisances for having needs. Being the oldest daughter I was OFTEN forced to care for all 6 of my siblings at one time. There was once where my nephew and two young cousins were dumped on me and I had to watch 9 kids, on my own, at 15, for hours while my parents went out with family and had dinner. I didn’t get to go to my own grandmas funeral because I had to watch all the kids. This culture is damaging beyond belief and I just got a little taste of it. I usually try to keep my comments light and funny but knowing what these older siblings are being put through in families like the plath and duggars, makes me so angry because when they look back on their childhood when their older, they don’t get the happy memories of just being a kid, they get the memory of being trapped, ignored, overworked and not being treated like an individual. Sometimes, it doesn’t really get better either. I still got kicked out at 15 and left homeless with my mom for the rest of high school, haven’t been able to have any contact with my siblings in 6 years (the siblings I helped raise like they were my OWN), and have been completely shunned from that side of my family to where I can’t go to weddings or any family get togethers. These conversations are so important to be having, cause lord knows some of these parents are not gonna listen to the kids who end up speaking out.
That sounds horrible but not every big family is dysfunctional. Of course it's worse when a big family is cause more people suffer.
Thanks for sharing.
Damn. I am so sorry for what you went through;
I hope you are able to get into contact with your siblings soon, and that you are able to make happy memories now despite all of the bs they put you through.
A Quiverfull Cathol, granted it wasn't Protestant, made a mess of my maternal relatives' childhood. My maternal grandma was suspected of parentifying her own elder daughters and neglecting her own younger daughters, and three of her sons contracted alcoholism and tobacco addiction from some unknown stressor, most likely sexual abuse by a priest which has mostly gone unpunished through all of timespace that Catholicism was involved in, and which John Paul II and Benedict XVI had been useless in doing anything about. Theology and a faith's backstory are one thing, but it's made me loathe sectarian authority and hierarchy, and crashed my attitudes about parent sovereignty and parents' judgment.
Edit: I was afraid of being attacked for writing this comment, but I felt it was too important not to. In now reading so many comments of people saying the same, I'm so thankful for your channel. You're helping in ways you probably don't even realize. ❤️
As someone who had postpartum depression/psychosis, I feel for Andrea. What she did was obviously heinous, I'm not defending her at all. However, her case is an absolute learning moment for a woman pushed to the edge, she already had mental health issues, PPD/P, and the added pressure of religious scrutiny created the perfect storm. I wish that we as a society would speak more about PPD/P, hold space for people to speak freely about it. I was terrified to tell *anyone* including my Dr about what I was going through, the horrible thoughts I was having, the fear, etc. I didn't tell anyone for about 12 years about any of it. I was also in a terribly abusive relationship at the time. It's a very scary thing to go thru, especially alone.
Rusty can suck it.
inb4 some ableist d*psh*t says, "mEnTaL iLlNeSs iS nOt aN eXcUsE"
I think that PPD/P is a valid excuse…. Her act was heinous, but I don’t think that makes her a bad person. Her mental illness brought on by pregnancy and childbirth are more to blame and as long as she doesn’t have more children, I don’t think she should be locked up forever or vilified. *Saying this as a person who’s also experienced PP depression and anxiety. I wanted to die. I didn’t want to be a mom anymore.
I think alot of people sympathize with Andrea for her situation but she still had to take the consequences for her actions.
What always upset me was that Rusty was never punished. He saw Andrea becoming worse and worse and still continued to neglect her and the kids, unintentional as it may have been. He saw her have multiple breakdowns and still did things like take her away from her family, forced her to leave her job, controlled the finances, had her and the kids live in a cheap ass RV, demanded they keep having kids after Andrea had multiple break downs, told Andrea constantly she didn't need to be on meds or she was weak for needing them, and ignored not just the doctors but family members who saw where this was heading.
I understand that at the end of the day she could have walked away but it's not nearly that simple. Rusty took alot of her agency away because that was the "Christian" thing to do. He basically forced her into isolation and put her with people that shamed her because she wasn't "a good enough mom" which was so sad because she clearly loved her kids from the videos she took. Before Rusty she was a strong, smart, independent, ambitious woman who could have done so much with her life. I don't blame Rusty for everything but he had a huge role to play and yet he's free because he wasn't the one that snapped and do something terrible. That I will never get over.
@@NotWorthBeans16 I remember when this happened, and it was a witch hunt. Even now there are true crime videos that paint her as evil, and I've been personally filleted in comment sections over my stance. That's why I said that about her and the community that she culivates/draws to her channel.
I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of what you've said. Tho I don't believe she could've walked away, I think she was in such bad shape mentally that it wasn't even an option for her.
@@MeganEspelienagreed. It's different for everyone. In my case, my brain told me that the most humane/right thing to do was to release my son and myself of this mortal coil. I was so broken and exhausted that I just wanted he and I to sleep, to escape our nightmare. In my mind it was the most loving, compassionate thing I could do for my child. Thankfully I had moments of rationality amongst the nightmare of that time. It's much deeper than that, but I don't think I can adequately describe it. You're literally disconnected from rational reality.
*I edited my reply as when I first read your comment I thought you said "I don't think PPD/p is a good excuse". I just woke up, and apparently my brain decided to put words in places they didn't belong lol.
Yaaaaaaas, finally examining the Andrea Yates case and how the quiverfall movement combats science. I've always felt Rusty and these Christians were almost just as responsible for the children's death.
@Alyssa he wasted no time remarrying and having more children too.
@Alyssa as someone who grew up in texas and first heard the Yates case as a sleepover horror story shared among friends- may i say that I completely agree!
I agree with you. Rusty stated that after her pregnancies Andrea experienced postpartum depression but he likened it to a car needing fluids or a tune up when she was prescribed medication. That is somewhat dehumanizing and unfeeling. Also her family pleaded with Rusty to get his wife and children out of that bus, stop following that creep cult leader and into a brick and mortar home where there was orderly childcare and privacy. I think that experience took a toll on Andrea's overall mental health and ability to view her children as humans not burdens.
Rusty is a POS and I feel like he left her alone knowing she was a danger to her children so he could start a new family. 😠
I would say he is more responsible - bc as others mentioned, when she was on her meds and sane, she told people not to leave her alone with the kids and she didn’t want to get pregnant anymore- but he steam rolled that and made her get off her meds
The Yates husband should have been punished and brought to justice. He is definitely at fault for Andrea’s eventual psychotic break.
Andrea's husband Rusty should be in prison. He failed her and their children in every possible way and ignored the medical advice of every doctor that treated Andrea.
It's refreshing to see someone cover these kind of cases without sensationalising them and also showing empathy to the women involved. Another great video Jen!
I agree! We forget that the women are the victims, too.
Lettttssssss goooooo
I have so much compassion in my heart for Andrea Yates. She was profoundly sick at the time of the murders, perhaps the most severe case of postpartum psychosis that has ever been recorded. She could've easily managed her condition had she not been indoctrinated into this church that severely neglects the wellbeing of their women and children. In my opinion, Rusty's willful medical negligence of his wife directly led to the deaths of his children and he deserves to be held just as responsible as she was. I hope Andrea found a compassionate community of women where she is and I hope that she understands that she's not a monster, she's a woman who was very, very, sick, was abused by her husband, and was indoctrinated by a church that's just as sick as she was.
Thank you for treating Andrea’s case with care. I remember learning about this case in Abnormal Psych in undergrad. It was infuriating how many students wanted her to get a death penalty rather than having any understanding or compassion around the reality of psychosis and abuse.
I read a lot about the Turpin case, but I never sought out photos or video. So this is the first time I am hearing their voices and seeing their faces. The video from the night of the escape is harrowing! Seeing Jordan trying to process escaping, speaking to this stranger, trying to explain the situation calmly, to articulate what is going on and making sure she's believed, is all so fucking heartbreaking. And when he asks "do you have pictures" and she seems so relieved that she can say yes, I do, please look at them. Watching that footage was a very humbling experience, jeez. I can't remember the last time I was so inspired by human bravery tbh.
The Andrea Yates case makes me so sad and angry, as someone who works in a mental health unit and has seen people with debilitating psychosis go on to live happy, healthy lives. I just feel like in a different environment, with a partner who supported her in taking her meds; took her illness seriously; listened to her and the professionals when they said she shouldn't have anymore children, then maybe things would have been better. Rusty absolutely should have been punished too.
Yeah, this doesn't defend Andrea's actions in anyway, but I really blame Rusty the most.
Andrea was profoundly sick and not in her right mind.
Rusty, as the only mentally sound adult in that family, had a responsibility to protect his children.
However, he didn't want that because childrearing is a woman's job according to his beliefs. He didn't want to believe she was as bad as she said because it was inconvenient for him, so he convinced himself 'yeah she had mental health problems, but she's fine now!'
I even freaking saw someone argue "But Andrea wanted more kids too!"...and, so what? Even if she did want more kids too, which I'm not convinced she did considering how many reports there are of her begging Rusty and her MIL for help, he had a responsibility to say "no" because he knew that his wife's doctors had told him it was not safe for Andrea to become pregnant again and not safe for their children to be alone with her!
Thank you for your integrity. Calling CPS is an extreme measure, and I agree, should not come from internet strangers.
I discovered you on shiny happy people ( what a harrowing documentary) and I decided to subscribe to your channel. Adore this channel. I read the Quiverfull book. Eye opening. There’s also a book by that author on fundamentalists adopting children that’s something else
The cat on the shoulder saga was a needed comic relief in this heavy topic. Thank you for covering such things though, they need to be recognized
I’m crying during their interview, so heartbreaking that the sister had to be the one to get help for her and her siblings.
We knew a family like that. The oldest child was staunchly against having kids, but she had to keep it silent from her parents.
I could see even back then she had to grow up too fast. As her sisters had to as well.
Thankfully she was allowed to study to go to university so I hope she is doing well now
"What is the Meaning of being labeled as demon possessed?"
That's a question my therapist asked me two days ago during a session where I was trying to figure out how I was taught to deal with emotions.
I was diagnosed as being Autistic and having ADHD a year ago and exploring the non-black-and-white perspectives on dealing with emotions is a new chapter in recognizing and dealing with Emotional triggers that used to cause me bigger meltdowns.
Growing up, you were either choosing the "wrong" emotions if you weren't Happy, Joyous and full of the Peace that Passes All Understanding...and that was a sin. Or you were "possessed by demons" if you focused too much on "bad" emotions and it overtook your life.
This is why I never told my parents that I had previously been diagnosed with Depression and Anxiety years ago and why I WON'T ever tell them I'm Autistic or have ADHD.
I never had the same level of abuse of kids did in this video, but I never went to public school or was allowed to hang out with other kids outside of church/church school and we were told, numerous times, that CPS was a threat and not to beat us kids too much to raise suspicion in people outside our small group.
There was a lot of emotional and physical abuse, as my dad was working two jobs and my mom couldn't work at all (she suffered from seizures and was believing she'd be healed through faith healing for years before she got surgery for the scar tissue in her brain) which lead to a lot of anger and confusion.
My sister and now have wondered for awhile if our parents even wanted us at all and it's also very hard to try to communicate all of this background info/context to my fiance regarding how I'm wired and how I can better handle my own emotions and internal struggles. I'm doing couples counseling right now and want to see what the best approach is for being open and honest about how the past has hurt me (since I've done a lot of my own internal work so much up until now) and what I'm doing to change my previous toxic mental model.
I'm always looking out for resources on how to deprogram how I was raised or taught to think (Mickey Atkins's channel is also really wonderful for her fantastic takes on shit I grew up believing), gaps in my childhood development (because there was NO WAY I would've been diagnosed with my disabilities now as a kid) and relearn more psychologically sound perspectives on how to better understand myself, but it's always a journey and I'm happy to be undergoing the steps needed to manifest positive change in myself and others around me.
The Crappy Childhood Fairy is awesome! You can find her on UA-cam. She recovered from Childhood PTSD and teaches others.
Even most secular therapists don't understand religious trauma syndrome. It's been up to Marlne Winnell and Valerie Tarico to run retreats for victims of it. I hope they are training therapists to help people with it. The rest of us have to rely on videos like these. In the forums and now the Facebook groups you can find yourself in the same groups as people who don't know what being abused by other fundamentalist Christians looks like as they got a free pass on that as they were in the inner circle of minister's or pastor's kids, worship group, high earners and pretty people. I was never in that though I did date an abusive Pentecostal elder for a few months. Some of them did do some abusing themselves and only left Christianity as they never believed in it and just went to church because their parents made them. Most feel abused by the dogma they used to believe even if they didn't get abused by the minister or other leaders in their church. But that's only if they had believed in it at one time.
The most obvious form of church abuse that everyone knows about are the altar boys and junior choir members who were abused by Catholic priests and choir masters. Also children in Catholic children's homes and those who attended Catholic schools. Then the girls who survived the Magdalene laundries in Ireland and were placed there as they had got pregnant or even raped.
on a less extreme note, Jana Duggar was recently convicted of child endangerment. I am sure she meant no harm, but it goes to show how overwhelmed and tired these caretakers can become. It’s not easy being a woman in the IBLP. I highly recommend anyone interested to check out Tia Levings, an ex fundamentalist talking in depth about all she went through as a young woman, bride and subsequently a mother in extremist religion. It’s not hard to see how mistreatment and neglect of children is encouraged in the quiverful movement
How do you find her content? I didn’t see anything when I searched UA-cam. Can you link it?
Thanks for covering this topic. I wrote a paper for my MS degree a few years back about the impact of corporal punishment on children and... good God, the Pearl's were on my mind the entire time
I remember the Andrea Yeats case. Even then my mom said she could tell Andrea was also a victim-her husband continued getting her pregnant when he knew she was suffering psychosis. Such a tragic story.
He should have been castrated and sent to prison
I love that I got two pop up that said this was triggering and I had to click to continue. You’re amazing Jen. Thank you for using features that foster a safe space on your channel. You’re such a good person I could cry.
Rusty Yates had forced the family of 7 into a trailer so she could homeschool the five kids.
He is guiltier than she is on this case. She was sick and he knew it and all he cared about was telling her why she had to just focus on being a good mom.
She needs to be in an institution, he should have done time.
Thank you! You are the first person in 20 years besides me that remembers this detail. I always being it up because at minimum he should have been charged with domestic violence and neglect.
It wasn’t even a trailer! It was a converted school bus!
She wasn't sick. She planned out the murders, she methodically killed the kids oldest to youngest, so they couldn't run for help, and she knew, the whole time, that she was doing wrong.
@@wmdkitty she was diagnosed with post partum psychosis by professionals, was taken off of her medications and was suffering from delusions, how was she not sick? while she's still responsible for what happened to her children, having a plan doesn't mean she wasn't suffering mentally
Yeah, next time I hope we also do an analysis on all killers an abusers and leave them all and get someone else in jail. lol
Makes me think of the years when I went to Hebrew school at a Chabad (Orthodox Jewish) and saw the Rabbi's family. His wife was very involved but always had so many young kids with her. Her oldest daughter was always taking care of her siblings. That kind of thinking is very common in Orthodox Jewish groups. I've never heard it referred to as quiverfull in this context but it definitely is.
What infuriates me as much as the way the Turpins treated their kids is the audacity they had in their statements to say "I'm sorry" and "I love you." Their kids have way more grace than I do because I don't buy that for a second. Where was that love and remorse when you WEREN'T facing decades in prison?
That's very telling isn't it. I hope they rot.
I can't comprehend people like them.
They were sorry they got caught and embarrassed that their horrendous abuse of their children was made public. If not for Jordan's courage, the abuse would have continued.
@@stevenlinda127 without a doubt 💯
Daddy Turpin's statement enraged me. "I'm sorry IF I caused you harm..." IF?!?
I remember this book being talked about when my oldest was a baby and it was sold in Christian book stores here in Norway. But they had to edit the translation a lot since much of the advice was illegal here, especially physical abuse. So many of the people buying the book had no idea what the views of the Pearls actually were.
I'm from Texas, unfortunately, and the Andrea Yates story is such a sad one. Thanks for all the amazing content.
highly recommend everyone watches that whole 60 minutes interview with the Turpin girls. it was heartbreaking but those girls are so, so strong.
Not strong. Just wanting what they deserve. As a survivor of xsa who brought an end to generations of it that went on in my biological father's side. It is not that we are strong. It is that we have a will and a demand to save our siblings and want basic human rights. I would like to think everyone would act like Jordan if they could.
Will definitely have to check that out
The way you did not fuck around with the title omfg queen
Idk how the Turpin kids seem so normal. What a bunch of incredibly resilient humans.
The Collins situation has caused me to take a step back from the snark community. Thank you so much for everything and the way you have used your platform. You have expressed exactly what has been on my mind these past few weeks.
What was the "Collins" situation?
@@victoriashevlin8587 Jenn mentions it in this video when discussing Karissa and Mandrae Collins. The snark community has been very vocal about what is a troubling medical issue with their youngest. It isn't something we should be interacting with and many have crossed lines out of concern. I don't think it's healthy or wise for us internet people to interact directly with these people.
I’m not really in the space to hear about such a sad subject right now, but wanted to say thank you for talking about this and bringing a light to this. It’s sick and beyond sad.
The Andrea Yates case. I always had a problem with her husband not getting any jail time for what he put her through and for leaving her alone with the children when he KNEW how bad it was. That he got to go on with his life after that and make more children is so wrong! He should have been charged with 90% of the murder of those kids.
What really drove it home for me was having children, and experiencing PPD, and finding out my husband was actually going to become the most needy, moody, grumpy, incapable baby in the house after the actual babies were born. He was heartless to me. Abusive. And I was 100% responsible for the entire family’s happiness according to him.
There’s no way Andrea Yates should have been held mentally competent at the time of her crime. I’m glad she’s living somewhere where she can be safe from society and get help. (We hope). Her husband’s negligence and machismo caused the death of those children.
I am so sorry to hear you went through that, I hope you're in a better place now
I blame Rusty 100%. Everytime Andrea was better he knocked her up again and was told by the doctor multiple times to stop. And he didn’t.
Yep. Its reproductive abuse plain and simple bob. Damn him wish he'd been punished
I don’t think I’ll ever be able to understand the dual impulses of having as many kids as possible and then abusing/neglecting the same kids you put all that time and effort into producing. The idea behind quiverfull is to produce more people capable of spreading your beliefs, so producing offspring who you don’t spend any time raising in a healthy way just screams a complete lack of intelligent thought behind your actions. Plus crazy.
Narcissism. These children are not people in their eyes. They’re trophies and extensions of their devotion to God. Everything else is a burden. My mother, though not at all religious, has a very similar mindset in her pride.
Appearances, as she said, "look at me and my husband and my perfect family of well behaved children, they're so mature and such *old souls*, yes I blanket trained them why do you ask?". Idk much about the ideology rn but I imagine the more kids you have the more "blessed by god" you are.
It's a kink. They actually don't care about the kids, they just get off on having them. It's like Master/Slave shit. The wife gets off being a slave, and then gets to be a master over the children. The husband just gets off all around.
Yes. I was raised in this. This is spot on. I’m surprised all of my siblings and myself survived our childhood. You can’t even imagine what these people are like behind closed doors. Thank you so much for shining the light Jen. ❤️❤️❤️🙏🙏🙏
I spent 6 weeks in a mother baby unit for people with post natal depression, while I was in there I also was with mothers who had post natal psychosis….it’s such a tragic and frightening thing to witness. Im just glad I was there to witness how a seemingly normal woman, can turn into something unrecognisable in such a short space of time. As much as it angers me to see children no longer with us, there’s also empathy for those who honestly have no control over what is happening to their own consciousness.
About mandated reporters.. I was in a very bad situation as a kid. That's putting it lightly. I never got chained up, but the Turpin house photos trigger me. My "parents" were sentenced to jail time because of it, and I wasn't allowed to have visitation w/ them. So yeah, it was bad.
CPS only got involved because someone in the neighborhood finally made it their business, and called the cops. I was taken out that night, taken to a hospital, and never went back again.
IDK if the mandated reporters (teachers, etc) ever made the call. I was put in special ed, nobody ever asked me if anything was wrong at home, they just called it a behavior problem. I remember having an aide spend an hour brushing my hair every week or so, but somehow a dirty child with matted hair didn't raise any red flags. Then I was pulled out of school in third grade, was hidden and nobody could do anything for me anymore.
My point here isn't to tell you a sob story, I don't want to make this about me. I'd rather frame this as someone else's to be honest, but I guess it might need to come from the source.
We only see the televised cases. There are probably many more. Mine wasn't.. just a single local news report. (at least thats what I found online years later) I WISH somebody said something sooner, but nobody wanted to get involved or help me, they just minded their business. I wish they made it their business.
(Edit to add: great video Jen, as always. I hope it doesn't seem too aggressive of me, and I know you mean no harm. I just really, really needed to say this. Hopefully all my frantic comments will sway the algorithm in your favor at least, haha)
This is why I can't get 100% on board with Jen's suggestion to not report things. I agree people shouldn't be wasting CPS' time on hearsay, rumors, and misperceptions, but I'm concerned that "stay out of it" can slip into the Bystander Effect.
I'm sorry you endured all that, but I'm glad you were able to get away from it.
Took the words out of my mouth.
If abuse is observed, it NEEDS to be our business. It should be everyone's business. Of course we shouldn't harass someone based off rumors, but we SHOULD speak up when we see something that isn't right.
@@novaava I think if it’s something you’re witnessing in your own neighborhood that’s one thing, you’re involved in your community. I think Jen is discouraging folks from the Internet from calling CPS on strangers based on assumptions from their social media and I think that’s a reasonable call.
I grew up in, and live only a few miles away from, Crystal Lake, IL, where AJ Freund was tortured and killed by his "parents." People in the (very nice) neighborhood called the police and DCFS repeatedly. DCFS completely dropped the ball for political reasons, and some agents have now been convicted. But at least the community spoke up. The family attended a branch of Chicagoland's biggest megachurch, and no one there has really said if they were aware of trouble or did anything about it. I went to AJ's visitation (closed casket), and the two police officers flanking that little casket were the saddest adults in have ever seen. They did all they could. But I still think that church could have done more. If I'm misinformed, I apologize.
I was looked at strangely once, I was asked what I did with my little ones that taught them to listen so well to my instructions.
I said "blanket training", having no idea what that meant to most people. I had heard the term explained as encouraging little ones to stay where they needed to for safety.
So, I would daily play games of yes and no. Reward to stay on the blanket and simply say 'No' and pop them back on to the safe place if they move from it.
We played stop go. Sang songs constantly about what we were doing.
The patience game taught them to fold their hands in lap. I would say "hands in lap" and start lining up sultanas with reasons why they were special. "This is 'cause you are funny, this is because you are kind, etc. and this is 'cause i love you - go bubby go!" They would dive for the sultanas and laugh.
Always praise, kindness and encouragement. Why would anyone hurt a baby for curiosity?
So many biblical texts are completely perverted in order to justify heinous acts. As my Nanna used to say "Jesus wept!"
The Turpins are a particularly interesting case, because they were hardcore Pentecostals at the start supposedly. Initially the kids were being forced to read the Bible and memorize verses. However, the religious teachings eventually petered out to almost nothing, including not even teaching the children to read or interacting with them at all. The Turpins kind of take the religious mask off of the abuse because they removed the religion but not the abuse. However I will say, they’re only very loosely Quiverfull, rather than let God decide how many kids they’d have, Louise wanted 12 children, and then claimed that a psychic told her she’d have a 13th. I also think it’s interesting that they’ve been called a “family cult”, them being separate from an umbrella organization is the only thing that separates them from a group like IBLP to me, and I’d be curious to see the family cult model of analysis applied to groups like the Duggars. The Family Next Door by John Glatt is a great book on the Turpins for anyone interested!
Probably because they decided to run a church in their own home rather than attend church. I don't know what happened fully but extremists usually don't fit in with other extremists are they are usually extreme in their own way or because they want to be top dog. Also the Turpin mother got into witchcraft probably as she was looking into it. Christianity is very close to witchcraft anyway.
@@lemsip207 the IBLP folks also do home church, so that is just one of many similarities to me.
I just read that book last month!
It took me a while to watch this one. I am glad I finally got the courage to. I am so relieved at the way you covered this very harsh reality of the quiverfull movement.
Your closing statement nearly brought me to tears. I appreciate your compassion and concern for the children. As we see with the Turpins, just because the parents are removed, doesn't mean the problems they have go away.
I so badly want to take them all in and give them a safe place to live and help them fight for their money. Poor babies!!! -Dee
Andrea Yates was a victim 100%. Yes, what she did was horrible, but imo she isn't personally to blame. She was being controlled and perhaps even ab*sed by a destructive cult, and it would be ridiculous to suggest that she had any real agency in that situation. Her children were victims of her illness and her religion, and so was she. I strongly believe that she deserves our compassion and hope that she has been able to heal and deconstruct the toxic beliefs she once had.
This take can be kind of controversial but I completely agree. People will usually say that, even though Andrea was extremely mentally ill, she is still a bad person and is at least somewhat to blame for killing her kids - that mental illness isn’t an excuse to murder your children. I don’t agree with that at all. Andrea barely even knew what she was doing, she was a victim too. I don’t know why people are so intent on holding very mentally ill people accountable for their actions when they had no control over them whatsoever. She tried her best to get help and she knew those kids weren’t safe around her, she clearly cared about them. People will say her mental illness isn’t an excuse for her actions, but I think it is an excuse. What else was she supposed to do? How does she bear any blame when she was hallucinating and barely even knew what was going on?
@@YIPPEYAY1 I think there are a few different reasons why people are so obsessed with saying Andrea Yates is a bad person. For one thing, a lot of them don't understand what psychosis is or how it affects a person. They hear "mental illness" and think of things like anxiety and (non-psychotic) depression. Another reason is that they are just... how do I put this?... not very good at thinking critically. They have a strong emotional reaction to children being murdered, and instead of considering the complex circumstances that led up to the event, they just want to say the perpetrator is evil and call it a day. And last, but certainly not least, they are ableist. People have a _really_ hard time being empathetic or compassionate towards mentally ill people. It's a reactionary attitude not too far off saying "social justice has gone too far" or claiming that white men are oppressed. The difference here is that saying "mental illness can be an explanation but not an excuse" has the veneer of a principled, responsible attitude, and on its face, it _is_ mostly true. But it's morphed from something said within mental illness communities about a responsibility to make things right when you've done wrong into a cliché used as (ironically) an excuse to be completely unempathetic towards mentally ill people and disregard any mitigating factors about their behavior.
I love the Turpin children. From the moment the news first broke, their story and Jordan's bravery was absolutely inspiring. There were tears in my eyes for that whole interview, both sad and happy, especially when she talked about Justin Bieber. I don't know why, it struck such a chord about how universally strong and resilient kids are, how every child deserves to be a kid and have that part of then protected.
If it makes anybody feel better about the Collins's, there's no way a baby in the NICU with parents behaving the way they did aren't being referred to the appropriate agencies by the mandated reporters in that hospital.
I hope so. Their behavior like all others here is completely incomprehensible to me
So proud of Jordan for getting out there to save all her siblings from those horrible parents
yes Jordan is an actual hero and should be treated like one
@@emilycurry8348 she is a true hero
The fact it went on so long is baffling.
Between the content and the fact that Sekhmet looks exactly like my kitty who passed away last year I basically spent this video crying
Sometimes our kitties pass out of our lives but they never pass out of our hearts. I hope your life is happier today.
Jen, I really appreciate how respectful and careful you were with such a sensitive topic. You’ve been one of my favorite creators for about a year now 💕
Even if the topic is scary or one I normally avoid (child abuse of any kind), I know I’m safe here. I know Jen will be very careful and respectful with her words. This is the first time I’ve been willing to hear the Turpin story, and having Jen hold my hand while she told it helped so much ❤️
My heart hurts for Andrea Yates. I have 2 toddler 14 months apart and I’m beyond overwhelmed and I don’t have psychosis or debilitating mental illness. Her husband failed his family. RIP Yates babies.
One thing that we can all do that I learned from Emily D. Baker's coverage of the Duggar trial is look into local laws on mandated reporting! In Arkansas apparently clergy are exempt from mandated reporting if someone discloses abuse to a clergy person as part of the "priest-penitent relationship." Changing these types of laws benefits everyone in the long term. Also Jen, you look fantastic today!
Bobye Holt is not clergy, therefore, there was no assumption of privacy. Women aren't allowed to hold ANY positions in the IBLP. The Judge's ruling had noting to do w/ mandatory reporting OR priest-penitent relationship. Also, privilege is not absolute and may be waived either by express consent of the penitent or by operation of law in specifically enumerated instances involving minors or instances of physical or mental abuse. The judge can order the clerrgy to testify. Keep in mind that before the actual trial begins there is an evidentiary hearing, each side knows who will be called to testify. There would be an objection for the clergy and the Judge would take the clergy, the pre-trial notes into chambers and discuss, then a ruling would be made by the judge based on if the info is critical to the case. I hope this makes sense, I tried to be brief so you didn't have to read a book. If you have any questions I'm glad to answer. Take care.
Yes. In Rhode Island, EVERY adult is a mandated reporter. In other states I've lived, it's typically anyone working with children, like medical professionals, mental health professionals, teachers, etc. Not sure about clergy, though. Wow. You're right, the laws must change and child abuse awareness training should be mandatory for almost all jobs.
@@VeroSCIA hello and thank you for such a detailed response! In this case I'm not talking about the specifics of the Duggar case but rather the law in Arkansas regarding exemptions from mandated reporting. The relevant exemption, which I've pulled from the RAINN website: "Except to the extent that the clergy member has acquired knowledge of the suspected child maltreatment through communication required to be kept confidential pursuant to the religious discipline of the relevant denomination or faith or received the knowledge of the suspected child maltreatment from the alleged offender in the context of a statement of omission."
Of course voters in each state can choose what they want their laws to look like, as Emily often says. I personally believe that clergy should be mandated reporters under all circumstances in cases of suspected child abuse. Changing laws like these in Arkansas and other places would (hopefully) help children long before cases go to trial by getting them assistance faster and potentially lessening the period and severity of the abuse.
Applied to the Duggar case it would be: imagine how the outcome may have differed if Mr. Holt was in fact a mandated reporter and had reported Josh's abuse immediately (suspend your disbelief on this one, I know the IBLP is full of unreported abuse). Does this make sense?
Andrea Yates was a victim of Rusty Yates personal interpretation of Christian fundamentalism. What's fucked up is that when Andrea was locked away, out of sight and out of mind for Rusty, he divorced her, remarried another woman and started knocking her up right away. He was such a fundementalist Christian until he wanted to divorce Andrea. It's hypocritical. I honestly feel bad for Andrea. She was a victim and was suffering to obey her husband and have as many babies as HE wanted. I'm definitely not condoning or excusing Andrea Yates' actions but she wasn't lucid or fully in control of herself when she killed her children.
Andrea Yates case is honestly heartbreaking. She asked for help over and over but Rusty wouldn't allow it. She herself even told him she didn't feel safe to be with the kids but Rusty wanted her to learn to handle the kids