What i love about the Orchestration Questions Series is that the tips often also apply to people like me who mostly score for a specific solo instrument (piano in my case) or a duo or small ensemble.😊
I was like "surely its not that big of a deal". I was Wrong. Thank you so much. Ive learnt a lot of small but rather important things from your channel. If i wasnt living on 300 a fortnight right now, id be throwing money at your patreon. Cheers thomas
AAAAAAA!!! So many people need to watch this; for some reason it seems like people just don't get it when it comes to meter and metric notation. Great video!!! Thanks!
What do you think of eg american music, where nearly each bar has a different meter? As an example, I want to mention John Mackeys "Redline Tango" with patterns like 3/4 + 5/8 + 2/4 + 5/8 + 5/8 + 7/8 and so on
I am composing a piano🎹 sonata. I was thinking when I heard you mention 8/4 "isn't that just 2 4/4 bars in 1 single bar and thus would have the up and down beats of 4/4?" Hopefully I can get it to sound like Beethoven. I have noticed when I just go with my heart and don't plan, my music ends up very Mozartian. So I have been carefully planning the sonata focusing on 1 movement at a time to avoid it being too much like Mozart.
Hey, what's the piece at the beginning of the video? The music and the score sound and look familiar to me, but I can't recognise it and it is driving me nuts
Although I've never encountered the situation described in the hypothetical, but I'm curious as to how you feel about using composite time signatures to achieve the desired effect. Going with the hypothetical, the film cue is in 4/4 and the particular moment needs 2 more beats. In theory, wouldn't having a bar of 4/4 + 2/4 keep everything within one bar, but solve any potential issues of miscommunication and shifts in pulse? I'm assuming that, like the 6/4 solution, the issue would be in the conducting, but my knowledge of conducting - which I admit is pretty limited at this point - says that, while a bit awkward, it might be a slightly better solution than 6/4.
That would solve the problem for the session, but not the problem of approach for the composer in the long run. Good suggestion which I realised I'd left out of my script about two seconds after I uploaded the video.
Would it also be acceptable when adding the 2/4 to 4/4 to write the time signature as (2+4/4)? Or when 1/4 is added to 4/4, is it acceptable to write it as (4+1/4)? I have a choral score where it does some of that to avoid seeing many time signatures at once, and I have even done it myself when arranging Dream Theater music, known for its complex time signature work for progressive rock.
If what you're doing works for your clients, then keep doing it. If you want to avoid raised hands in rehearsal time for a full orchestra, then simply write a separate bar with any extra beats in it. But did you watch the second half of the video? A bar of 5/4 time is perfectly acceptable, and you needn't write "4/4+1/4."
Yes, I have seen the full video. I was lucky enough to play the highlights from Rite of Spring as Timpani I, and agree that those time signatures work really well! Thank you very much for your response, I'm looking forward to your future content!
One thing that wasn't mentioned in this video was the option of doing (for example) a complex time signature involving specifically adding things together. (4+2)/4 instead of one bar of 4/4 and one of 2/4, for example. Personally I recall seeing this in El Salón Mexico where this method is used so some instruments are doing (6+2)/8 while others do 4/4, but it wouldn't be impossible to do it in a context like the question you answered in this video, would it?
Not at all, and in fact that's one more solution - and yet I think it's unnecessary about 80% of the time I've seen it used. Separate bars work just as well or better.
Doesn't the opening of Brahms 1st symphony violate this? It's in 6/8 (clearly two sets of three), but the 8th bar has an extra set of three, and this is notated as 9/8, as opposed to a 9th bar of 3/6 after an 8th still in 6/8. The 9th bar (clearly different and demarked by double barlines) reverts immediately to 6/8. I'm guessing Brahms wanted the "integrity" of an 8-bar phrase, as opposed to an odd 9-bar phrase?
Here's a tangenrially related question this topic reminded me of. In Monteverdi's Vespers, the opening of the Laudate movement has a 5/4 feel, but I've had a glance at the score once (only a short one, and I'm no pro in score reading), and saw it's scored in 3/2. It left me wondering how that works out...
Thanks for the reply! With Prokofiev, though, I think I can understand his thinking: The 5/4 part only has one melodic line played solo, and the moment something more complicated happens, we're in 4/4. Monteverdi has the whole 4-part choir, with the accompaniment (I think a continuo part) actually playing attacks on the five beats. I don't even understand how he managed to have that 5/4 effect work in a 3/2 score.
WhyCan'tIRemainAnonymous?! It's a lot to I think with the church tradition at the time. I haven't got a source on hand for this, but there was a sort of law dictating that the music be in 3 to denote the Holy Trinity. Monteverdi probably wanted to try something new, but he actually couldn't conceive of a measure of 5/4. That's my guess anyway.
"...the moment something more complicated happens, we're in 4/4." There's nothing in that passage of the concerto that would require a 4/4 approach from the orchestra - nor would any decent orchestra have much of a problem if there where. I think Prokofiev was just being cute.
Don't forget that 5/4 was a touchstone for Russian orchestras ever since Tchaikovsky's Symphony no. 6. You had to be able to play that time signature smoothly, no getting around it.
3 questions: 1) At 2:30 and 7:13 I always think that virtually every big-name conductor is a "he," with one notable exception being Marin Alsop. Do you have anything to say about that? 2) Do you happen to know the purpose of Scriabin's devices shown at 9:23? 3) Do you know approximately when the last 2 videos will be out?
1. I personally know a ton of conductors of both genders, and there are plenty of well-known woman conductors like Falletta, (Nadia) Boulanger, de la Parra, Hannigan, Brico, Hsu, and many more - so I'm happy to dub all conductors with the royal "they." :) 2. The device is part of Scriabin's colour organ. 3. Over the summer.
Thank you. I have something else to ask you, but I would like to do it by email so I have more room to say a lot of things. What would be the best way to contact you?
Hi Jim, hi Jerome, did you watch the credits at the end? I always frame these question videos with the same musical work throughout, so the answer is the finale from Scriabin's Symphony no. 1, just as the opening was from the beginning. :)
Well, I have a facebook issue. My account has been disabled. I don't know why though. Several days ago they asked me to send them a photo to prove that it was me on facebook and not somebody else so I took a photo and sent it. And now my account is disabled. I sent an appeal to facebook through the help center but I don't see anything that I did that would violate facebook responsibilities. Really, it would be nice if they were more flexible about it. Hopefully, I can get it resolved soon.
Well, it has been a week and my account is still disabled, even after I sent them that detailed appeal. No idea why I got disabled in the first place though.
Thomas Goss, I sent you a friend request on facebook on Friday, my username is Cheyanna Ward and I also sent a request to join your group. I answered that question to prove that I am a musician by saying something along these lines: I am indeed a musician. I have played the piano for 10 years and am starting to really get into composing music. Of course I will start small with piano sonatas but I do dream of writing symphonies and concertos someday so I am studying orchestration. I figured maybe within a few days you would at least let me join the orchestration online facebook group but it hasn't happened yet.
Hi Cheyanna! Your answers seem not to have come through, and as your profile is private, we had no way of knowing whether you were a musician. Submit another request and we'll let you in.
Same answer that I gave to SMmarcus100 below. You can do that, but there's often no need whatsoever. It's easiest on everyone, especially the people you really need to care about sitting in their sections, if the bars are written as simply and clearly as possible in separate components.
What i love about the Orchestration Questions Series is that the tips often also apply to people like me who mostly score for a specific solo instrument (piano in my case) or a duo or small ensemble.😊
Thanks for that insight! It's good to hear that my resources can be used in many situations.
OrchestrationOnline no problem. Keep up the great work😄
I was like "surely its not that big of a deal". I was Wrong. Thank you so much. Ive learnt a lot of small but rather important things from your channel. If i wasnt living on 300 a fortnight right now, id be throwing money at your patreon. Cheers thomas
"I just leave out the concept of bars entirely."
-Michael Finnissy
(Not an actual quote)
Thank you so much! Always helpful stuff...and love the cat cameo. :-)
0:00 OrchestrationOnline on Patreon
0:13 Title
0:28 *Question*
0:57 The Problem with Simply Adding Bars
1:33 4/4 + 2/4 ≠ 6/4
2:06 Copyist/Orchestrator & Conductor
2:39 *Default Rule:* Extra Beats = Extra Bar
4:04 *3/4 to 4/4*
4:46 Ex.: Scriabin
5:33 *4/4 to 5/4*
6:05 Ex.: Stravinsky 1+4/4
6:52 Ex.: Stravinsky 6/4
7:29 Adding Beats with Longer Time Signatures
8:19 3/2 isn't always the solution.
8:48 Preview
9:26 Patrons & Credits
AAAAAAA!!! So many people need to watch this; for some reason it seems like people just don't get it when it comes to meter and metric notation. Great video!!! Thanks!
LOve how the kitty shows interest for orchestration videos:)))
Great seeing your cat, not just sleep!
nice, can't wait for questions 19 and 20
What do you think of eg american music, where nearly each bar has a different meter? As an example, I want to mention John Mackeys "Redline Tango" with patterns like 3/4 + 5/8 + 2/4 + 5/8 + 5/8 + 7/8 and so on
So long as the meters of those bars all make sense, I'm as much for that as I am for the Rite of Spring.
I am composing a piano🎹 sonata. I was thinking when I heard you mention 8/4 "isn't that just 2 4/4 bars in 1 single bar and thus would have the up and down beats of 4/4?"
Hopefully I can get it to sound like Beethoven. I have noticed when I just go with my heart and don't plan, my music ends up very Mozartian. So I have been carefully planning the sonata focusing on 1 movement at a time to avoid it being too much like Mozart.
Hey, what's the piece at the beginning of the video? The music and the score sound and look familiar to me, but I can't recognise it and it is driving me nuts
Although I've never encountered the situation described in the hypothetical, but I'm curious as to how you feel about using composite time signatures to achieve the desired effect. Going with the hypothetical, the film cue is in 4/4 and the particular moment needs 2 more beats. In theory, wouldn't having a bar of 4/4 + 2/4 keep everything within one bar, but solve any potential issues of miscommunication and shifts in pulse? I'm assuming that, like the 6/4 solution, the issue would be in the conducting, but my knowledge of conducting - which I admit is pretty limited at this point - says that, while a bit awkward, it might be a slightly better solution than 6/4.
That would solve the problem for the session, but not the problem of approach for the composer in the long run. Good suggestion which I realised I'd left out of my script about two seconds after I uploaded the video.
Would it also be acceptable when adding the 2/4 to 4/4 to write the time signature as (2+4/4)?
Or when 1/4 is added to 4/4, is it acceptable to write it as (4+1/4)?
I have a choral score where it does some of that to avoid seeing many time signatures at once, and I have even done it myself when arranging Dream Theater music, known for its complex time signature work for progressive rock.
If what you're doing works for your clients, then keep doing it. If you want to avoid raised hands in rehearsal time for a full orchestra, then simply write a separate bar with any extra beats in it. But did you watch the second half of the video? A bar of 5/4 time is perfectly acceptable, and you needn't write "4/4+1/4."
Yes, I have seen the full video. I was lucky enough to play the highlights from Rite of Spring as Timpani I, and agree that those time signatures work really well!
Thank you very much for your response, I'm looking forward to your future content!
Thank you Mr. Goss
One thing that wasn't mentioned in this video was the option of doing (for example) a complex time signature involving specifically adding things together. (4+2)/4 instead of one bar of 4/4 and one of 2/4, for example. Personally I recall seeing this in El Salón Mexico where this method is used so some instruments are doing (6+2)/8 while others do 4/4, but it wouldn't be impossible to do it in a context like the question you answered in this video, would it?
Not at all, and in fact that's one more solution - and yet I think it's unnecessary about 80% of the time I've seen it used. Separate bars work just as well or better.
Doesn't the opening of Brahms 1st symphony violate this? It's in 6/8 (clearly two sets of three), but the 8th bar has an extra set of three, and this is notated as 9/8, as opposed to a 9th bar of 3/6 after an 8th still in 6/8. The 9th bar (clearly different and demarked by double barlines) reverts immediately to 6/8. I'm guessing Brahms wanted the "integrity" of an 8-bar phrase, as opposed to an odd 9-bar phrase?
I have used 5/4 as a final measure a couple of times.
Can someone please identify the recording of the Scriabin symphony?
Here's a tangenrially related question this topic reminded me of. In Monteverdi's Vespers, the opening of the Laudate movement has a 5/4 feel, but I've had a glance at the score once (only a short one, and I'm no pro in score reading), and saw it's scored in 3/2. It left me wondering how that works out...
Think that's bad, check out the opening of Prokofiev's 2nd violin concerto, which is clearly in 5/4, but scored over 4/4 bars. :D
Thanks for the reply!
With Prokofiev, though, I think I can understand his thinking: The 5/4 part only has one melodic line played solo, and the moment something more complicated happens, we're in 4/4. Monteverdi has the whole 4-part choir, with the accompaniment (I think a continuo part) actually playing attacks on the five beats. I don't even understand how he managed to have that 5/4 effect work in a 3/2 score.
WhyCan'tIRemainAnonymous?! It's a lot to I think with the church tradition at the time. I haven't got a source on hand for this, but there was a sort of law dictating that the music be in 3 to denote the Holy Trinity. Monteverdi probably wanted to try something new, but he actually couldn't conceive of a measure of 5/4. That's my guess anyway.
"...the moment something more complicated happens, we're in 4/4." There's nothing in that passage of the concerto that would require a 4/4 approach from the orchestra - nor would any decent orchestra have much of a problem if there where. I think Prokofiev was just being cute.
Don't forget that 5/4 was a touchstone for Russian orchestras ever since Tchaikovsky's Symphony no. 6. You had to be able to play that time signature smoothly, no getting around it.
What's the background music?
Always check the credits. Scriabin Symphony no. 1.
I'm not seeing any advice on how to score for the "Luce"...
3 questions: 1) At 2:30 and 7:13 I always think that virtually every big-name conductor is a "he," with one notable exception being Marin Alsop. Do you have anything to say about that? 2) Do you happen to know the purpose of Scriabin's devices shown at 9:23? 3) Do you know approximately when the last 2 videos will be out?
1. I personally know a ton of conductors of both genders, and there are plenty of well-known woman conductors like Falletta, (Nadia) Boulanger, de la Parra, Hannigan, Brico, Hsu, and many more - so I'm happy to dub all conductors with the royal "they." :) 2. The device is part of Scriabin's colour organ. 3. Over the summer.
Thank you. I have something else to ask you, but I would like to do it by email so I have more room to say a lot of things. What would be the best way to contact you?
Contact form on orchestrationonline dot com.
Then you might want to check your email, because I wrote you something there a while ago.
I might have overlooked it - I don't know your real name and so on.
What's the title of the music at the end :)
I would also rather like to know this.
Hi Jim, hi Jerome, did you watch the credits at the end? I always frame these question videos with the same musical work throughout, so the answer is the finale from Scriabin's Symphony no. 1, just as the opening was from the beginning. :)
Ah right. The end sounds so different from the beginning that I didn't recognise it as the same work! Thanks!
I've scrolled down to the description out of habit :D
Well, I have a facebook issue. My account has been disabled. I don't know why though. Several days ago they asked me to send them a photo to prove that it was me on facebook and not somebody else so I took a photo and sent it. And now my account is disabled. I sent an appeal to facebook through the help center but I don't see anything that I did that would violate facebook responsibilities. Really, it would be nice if they were more flexible about it. Hopefully, I can get it resolved soon.
I was wondering where you went. Hope you're back on track soon.
Well, it has been a week and my account is still disabled, even after I sent them that detailed appeal. No idea why I got disabled in the first place though.
Thomas Goss, I sent you a friend request on facebook on Friday, my username is Cheyanna Ward and I also sent a request to join your group. I answered that question to prove that I am a musician by saying something along these lines:
I am indeed a musician. I have played the piano for 10 years and am starting to really get into composing music. Of course I will start small with piano sonatas but I do dream of writing symphonies and concertos someday so I am studying orchestration.
I figured maybe within a few days you would at least let me join the orchestration online facebook group but it hasn't happened yet.
Hi Cheyanna! Your answers seem not to have come through, and as your profile is private, we had no way of knowing whether you were a musician. Submit another request and we'll let you in.
Okay I submitted another request to join your group.
2:15 69th bar :-)
could you put a bar of four-plus-two four?
Same answer that I gave to SMmarcus100 below. You can do that, but there's often no need whatsoever. It's easiest on everyone, especially the people you really need to care about sitting in their sections, if the bars are written as simply and clearly as possible in separate components.
Thank you for the response, I should have read the rest of the comments first :) that makes sense.
Happy to help! :) You're very welcome.
another good idea is just have the beats on offbeats, there's not much problem and it could make things a lot simpler.