Everest 1996: Analysis of Photos taken between 7AM and 10AM.

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  • Опубліковано 2 січ 2025

КОМЕНТАРІ • 79

  • @michaeltracy2356
    @michaeltracy2356  4 дні тому +37

    A list of factual errors in Into Thin Air: github.com/mtracy-quantum/Everest/blob/main/ITA/Errors.md. This is a work in progress, and I'll expand it out to include the contradictions between Krakauer's account of those of Groom and others. Those contradiction will not be labeled as "errors" and will go in a different page.

    • @sharonsekhon9475
      @sharonsekhon9475 4 дні тому +8

      This is amazing work. Well done.

    • @lusiadagirl
      @lusiadagirl 3 дні тому

      ❤❤❤❤❤❤muito bem!

    • @rg3412
      @rg3412 3 дні тому

      I immediately starred your repo... Will run the Jupyter Notebook shortly. Anecdotally, I'm shocked to discover the Himalaya Database is still using Visual FoxPro which has been reached end-of-life 15 years ago....

    • @rg3412
      @rg3412 3 дні тому +2

      Started to go over the Errors file. It would help if you would/could specify what was available at the time of writing. You can't blame a writer for mis-stating a fact that only became available after he wrote his book. If you could tally up the errors for which proper data was available at the time of writing, then you'd have a stronger case that JK was deliberately misleading the reader.

    • @rg3412
      @rg3412 3 дні тому

      I immediately starred your repo... Will run the Jupyter Notebook shortly. Anecdotally, I'm shocked to discover the Himalaya Database is still using Visual FoxPro which has been reached end-of-life 15 years ago....

  • @boudiccaleduckel4680
    @boudiccaleduckel4680 3 дні тому +21

    This is one of my two favorite channels. This is the most fun though. I get so excited when a new video comes out. It's like a British murder mystery, extreme sport/adventure, and a courtroom drama all mixed in one. Thank you Michael Tracy.

    • @Somerled_1
      @Somerled_1 2 дні тому

      Hey boudica

    • @boudiccaleduckel4680
      @boudiccaleduckel4680 2 дні тому

      @@Somerled_1 Hey, Somerled! Did you like the video? I wonder what ever happened to those pesky, thieving, Taiwanese in this grand convoluted tale. What happened to the full oxygen bottles? I will wait with bated (oxygen-filled) breath for the next installment.

  • @gonnafish
    @gonnafish 3 дні тому +10

    Thorough analysis as always! Thanks for continuing to clear out the mist hanging over the climb.

  • @eric-wb7gj
    @eric-wb7gj 3 дні тому +7

    TY Michael, another well researched, informative & enjoyable video! 🙏🙏

  • @TheSaxon.
    @TheSaxon. 4 дні тому +19

    I feel for Doug but Michael is right.
    I'd suggest there were one or two more that shouldn't have been on the mountain.

    • @rabarbarum
      @rabarbarum 3 дні тому +7

      “If a client cannot climb the mountain without big help from guide, that client should not be on Everest.”
      - Anatoli, as quoted in Into Thin Air. Krakauer takes these words and weaves around them a whole narrative how Boukreev was this hard-charging Eastern European asshole who “did not believe in coddling the weak”, refused to act like a guide in “Western tradition”, that it exasperated Fischer and that it was the main reason why Fischer was extremely tired prior to summit day, as he had to basically do Boukreev’s job too.
      In reality Anatoli is 100% correct here. Hall let his emotions get the better of him, and it got people killed. Fischer almost did the same with Pete Schoening and especially Dale Kruse. Kruse was the weakest one on the team, but he was a “seed client”, as Karen Dickinson put it, so Fischer felt especially strongly about helping him succeed. Fortunately both Kruse and Schoening stayed in base camp, as they should.

    • @chrimony
      @chrimony 2 дні тому +1

      @@rabarbarum Seems obvious that you can only lead people, but you cannot climb the mountain for them.

    • @Amy_aesthetic-hehe
      @Amy_aesthetic-hehe День тому

      Pitman

    • @Paa375
      @Paa375 10 годин тому

      @@rabarbarumif a person can’t walk up or down they have no right being in the mountain

  • @teripittman
    @teripittman 3 дні тому +24

    I watched that video on Sandy Pittman's climbing history. She got a raw deal and it seems like jealous on Krakauer's part.

    • @boudiccaleduckel4680
      @boudiccaleduckel4680 3 дні тому

      Are you related to her?

    • @teripittman
      @teripittman 3 дні тому +3

      @ no. Name is from my husband and he wasn't related to her either.

    • @TheSaxon.
      @TheSaxon. 3 дні тому +4

      She probably isn't as bad as her reputation suggests but she wouldn't have summited or got back down alive without the significant help of others.

    • @teripittman
      @teripittman 3 дні тому +6

      The same is true of Krakauer. Yet we don't see video blaming him for everything. She climbed as fast as Krakauer to the summit.

    • @arneboveng3756
      @arneboveng3756 2 дні тому +1

      @@teripittman Krakauer is and was a very experienced climber.

  • @sandgroper-ig9nk
    @sandgroper-ig9nk 3 дні тому +8

    I think your channel is fantastic very informative cheers👍

  • @golden1789
    @golden1789 3 дні тому +4

    When I think about how the 'fixed ropes?' has been a 'fixed' part of the narrative for so long, your sleuthing Sir, leaves me astounded.

    • @davidgeisler9885
      @davidgeisler9885 3 дні тому

      It’s never been out forward as the sole cause of the tragedy. But one of several causes put forward.

    • @golden1789
      @golden1789 3 дні тому

      @@davidgeisler9885 My comment does not imply that it was...

  • @susancoddington6393
    @susancoddington6393 3 дні тому +3

    Now i have read on a video on Mt Everest about 1996 that Doug Hansen wanted to turn back because he knew he couldn't make it,but Rob Hall encouraged Doug to continue

    • @davidgeisler9885
      @davidgeisler9885 3 дні тому +3

      What Rob actually said to Doug remains a mystery they took to their deaths.
      However it seems reasonable to conclude it was about encouraging Doug to keep going up.
      A fatal decision for at least those 2 plus Andy Harris.
      I call it and the weather as the two main causes of the deaths that day.
      Except for Scott Fischer dying alone. Seemingly needlessly he shouldn’t have gone up that day

    • @Paa375
      @Paa375 10 годин тому

      @@davidgeisler9885bad decisions all around

  • @nikkiboucher8585
    @nikkiboucher8585 19 годин тому

    I seem to be following your interesting videos. Adroit as always!

  • @the_card_closet
    @the_card_closet 3 дні тому +1

    Pictures really are worth a thousand words.

  • @Kikkies38
    @Kikkies38 День тому +1

    Why do you think Lou Kishiske feels climbers were waiting on ropes when her turned around @ noon? I get that his account of what happens after noon must have been dictated to him by somebody else; still I’m curious if it is just based on Into Thin Air, because I know he was writing before Krakauer’s publication. He seems to strongly imply that he either saw or was told by Stu prior to turn around that there was a rope-related traffic jam,even if those ropes were never actually fixed. Kishiske must have finalized and edited his account after reading JK’s book. I just wonder if he’d base important details on that narrative. Were he, Taske, and Stu simply mistaken at the time about the reason for the wait?

    • @michaeltracy2356
      @michaeltracy2356  День тому +4

      Kaschicke makes a number of errors in his book as well. I criticize him for the same thing I do Krakauer -- having a pre-determined conclusion and then trying to find stuff to support it. The photos and climb times do not show people waiting on ropes to be fixed. Kaschicke ignores this and invents his own information...
      "FROM WHERE they were in the crowd, with the inevitable major delay ahead at the Hillary Step, Yasuko, Doug, Mike, and Rob had absolutely no chance of reaching the summit by 1 pm, and for that matter by 2 or 3 pm". Kasischke, Lou. After The Wind: Tragedy on Everest One Survivor's Story (pp. 187-188).
      Only problem is Yasuko, Mike and Rob were all on the summit by 2:30PM and could have been there by 2PM if Yasuko didn't take so long to get up the step. The fact that Kaschicke says it was impossible for them to get there before 3 when, in fact, Groom and Namba arrived at 2:15 and Hall at 2:30 is difficult to understand. He seems to think there were delays that simply were not there.
      Hall got to South Summit at 12PM, so the idea that he was going to make 1PM summit has nothing to do with fixed ropes nor crowds. He was already late and if the entire route was fixed and not a single person on it, he could not make 330 vertical feet to the summit in less than an hour when he have been doing far less than that all day.
      His general theory that Rob Hall abandoned the "leadership" and was instead hanging out in the rear is also mistaken. As I noted in the "First Two Hours" video, Rob's problem was overloaded Sherpa, keeping them moving, and getting that oxygen to South Summit. The problems for Rob were in the rear of the climbers and Rob was addressing those from the rear as that is the only place he could do it. Much like Krakauer, Kaschicke ignores the overwhelming importance of oxygen and the Sherpa needed to get it into place. Rob was focusing on that and based his decisions on the oxygen available to the climbers. That is why Hall was in rear. That is why Hall climbed past 1PM -- because they had a massive cache of oxygen from all the climbers who turned around. Kaschicke doesn't mention this -- it is just Rob being stupid.
      Kashcicke's personal account seems accurate, but when he gets into things he didn't personally see or gets into the analysis, he just starts making things up.

    • @rabarbarum
      @rabarbarum День тому +2

      If you interviewed a Holocaust survivor decades after the war, what they would often tell you was not their own unfiltered memories, but rather an augmented version as told and contextualised in print - as over time their own recollections merged with the stories and interpretations they read. Such is the funny thing about human memory.
      Kasichke does not invent stuff, but he relies very heavily on Into Thin Air, especially with regard to events he did not witness. You can tell because he repeats certain phrases and explanations almost verbatim. I think his account is believable, but only as far as he went himself. The parts above South Summit, and the analysis, not so much.
      That said, Kasichke does not have remotely the same agenda as Krakauer, nor any incentive to lie. Moreover, he is not an investigative journalist purporting to tell The Truth. His story is much more personal and intimate. His book is very much about his spiritual experience of narrowly escaping death, and a testament to his love for his wife. His leadership analysis, even if based on some faulty premises, also comes from his personal perspective, and the single central question: how come he was able to clear his head of the summit fever and Yasuko and Doug were not? Personally I think there may be some classic survivor guilt in there too.
      His criticism of Rob is also refreshing. JK paints Hall in the best possible light; in Into Thin Air the disaster happens almost like a Greek tragedy, with no one to blame, except for Boukreev and Pittman taunting the gods with their character flaws. The question of leadership disappears. Kasichke at least tries to understand what the fuck has happened.

    • @Kikkies38
      @Kikkies38 День тому

      @@rabarbarumI agree with a lot of what you’re saying. Kishiske definitely doing a very different thing than Krakauer, who is-whatever else you think-an amazing writer. As a piece of writing; I think LK’s book would have been better as a series of meditations on love, faith, and suffering without trying to recreate the entire story as well. It didn’t work as a mash-up of genres. However, he’s a very accomplished person and not a professional writer, and I don’t with to downplay the achievement. That said, because he did essentially give full version of events, I can’t ignore it. And he opens himself up in this way to questions of veracity, whether or not he knew he might be perpetuating misinformation. I

    • @Paa375
      @Paa375 10 годин тому

      @@michaeltracy2356don’t most people make things up when they think they know everything????

  • @Ravege98
    @Ravege98 2 дні тому

    I really appreciate these videos, they have been causing me to re evaluate a lot of what I have read and seen. (Still not a fan of Pitman). But I wonder if these have the effect of giving Krakauer a heads up on what he needs to address and how.

  • @alastairmoody798
    @alastairmoody798 3 дні тому +1

    Thank you. I understand the importance of what you are investigating and trying to show.
    Meaning of phrase ‘waiting on fixed ropes’. Do I understand correctly, throughout the video you use this phrase to mean ‘waiting for ropes to be fixed’ (and not ‘waiting while attached to a fixed rope’). I may be confused because the passages quoted from Lina Gamelgard book described her nodding off while hanging on a jumar (?), ie she is attached to a rope, frustrated that ppl up ahead have not got ‘their ass in gear’. So at that moment she is both ‘waiting on a fixed rope’ (attached to a fixed rope) and ‘waiting on fixed ropes’ (waiting for ropes still to be fixed higher up towards south summit)?

    • @michaeltracy2356
      @michaeltracy2356  3 дні тому +2

      It means waiting for ropes to be fixed. As you note, there were times people were waiting and they were attached to a fixed rope. However, if the ropes have been fixed a week in advance, those same people would have been waiting while attached to those same fixed ropes.

    • @Paa375
      @Paa375 10 годин тому

      @@michaeltracy2356I thought you said no one was fixing ropes so why are people that were actually there saying they were waiting around was it just the fact the climbers were slow and they bottlenecked ???

  • @MonteD1
    @MonteD1 3 дні тому +4

    Is there a single photo of Pittman being short roped?

    • @michaeltracy2356
      @michaeltracy2356  3 дні тому +7

      No, but it would have been dark at that time.

    • @RSimpkinuk57
      @RSimpkinuk57 3 дні тому +1

      @@michaeltracy2356 It might be worth expanding sometime on what short roping is actually about.
      "Short Roping and Short Pitching
      From the AMGA Alpine Guides Course Manual
      Short roping is the use of a small portion of the rope to lead clients through exposed terrain in such a manner as to safeguard clients from the possibility of a slip or fall by both reducing the likelihood of a slip and by arresting a slip before it becomes a fall.
      "There are two distinctly separate components to short rope technique. The first occurs when the guide and client move together, quite close to each other (usually less than 6 feet apart). Traveling in this manner can give the guide a high degree of group control, greatly reducing the likelihood of a slip or fall.
      "A client on a short rope is under direct and very close control of the guide. This proximity allows the guide to lead the client up the best possible route, and models the most efficient manner to ascend.
      "Short roping allows the client and guide to move very quickly."
      Thus Lopsang short roping Pittman in the dark up the easier-graded ice slope from camp to the start of the Montegrins' fixed ropes (new ground to her) implies that Pittman had the power to keep up with Lopsang and only needed confidence?

    • @michaeltracy2356
      @michaeltracy2356  2 дні тому +3

      That is a good observation. I'll probably use it at some point in the future. There is no question that Pittman, like all the other climbers, had enough power to climb up the relatively easy position immediately above South Col Camp 4. The issue is Krakauer claims this lasted 5 hours and up until the top of the fixed ropes. Pittman claims this was 1 hour and ended at the beginning of the fixed ropes. As I show in the 2024 v 1996 video, Krakauer's account is not believable.
      More problematic is that Krakauer also claims Pittman's oxygen was turned up to 4LPM out of South Col -- a statement that is not corroborated by anyone else. I suspect this is journalistic fraud and will be asking for Krakauer's notes on this issue. There is just no possibility that Pittman was being "dragged" up the mountain while on 4LPM and climbing over easy terrain. As her oxygen would have ran out of 3 hours and this did not happen, it appears Krakauer invented it.

  • @DaHansWars
    @DaHansWars 3 дні тому

    Hello Michael Tracy. Thank you for the Video.

  • @mikeellis4345
    @mikeellis4345 3 дні тому +1

    I’m big holding my breath for Krakauer to correctly adjust his stance on his previous publication … I doubt there will be any significant difference or change to his story. In any case it will be fascinating to hear your perspective if and when he does publish his second try.

    • @Paa375
      @Paa375 10 годин тому

      He has nothing to gain why would he almost everyone who knew about this disaster read his book and believe they are factual events so why bother

  • @pizzafrenzyman
    @pizzafrenzyman 3 дні тому +3

    9:06 Not a cloud in the sky

    • @PianoScoreVids
      @PianoScoreVids 3 дні тому

      "there wasn't a cloud out there. the weather was beautiful!"
      I watched that documentary too many times already..

  • @dougmorss485
    @dougmorss485 3 дні тому

    Apologies for this not being a mountaineering question Michael, but is that an Ohio accent you possess?

  • @DD-bu1kg
    @DD-bu1kg 3 дні тому +3

    While you are way obsessed with JK and his bullshit, I f*cking love it. Best analysis around.

    • @michaeltracy2356
      @michaeltracy2356  3 дні тому +9

      Krakauer is the one that says I "cherry-pick" evidence and come to predetermined conclusions. Just proving him wrong, one video at a time. Don't poke a Yeti.

  • @Somerled_1
    @Somerled_1 2 дні тому +3

    For the next season of Michael Tracy, Was it actually John Krakauer who fed Christopher McCandless the poison plants so he could write a hit book?

  • @paulhicks7387
    @paulhicks7387 3 дні тому

    Thanks, Mike. The world would be a rather better place if rather more were capable of and so did some critiical thinking.

  • @jimfree0
    @jimfree0 3 дні тому +4

    To be a stickler, in the best of company, you might reconsider your pronunciation of "laryngitic". Bonus points must be appointed for the approximation of said malady, however.

    • @Kikkies38
      @Kikkies38 День тому

      @@jimfree0 I just can’t believe what and amazing wordsmith Viestures is “laryngic” and “hectored” in same turn of phrase!

  • @jjzap2935
    @jjzap2935 3 дні тому +3

    Yes indeed Doug should not have been there, That way Rob would have not had the option to "make Dougs dream come true".
    BTW, am I the only one noticing how beautiful the weather looks in those photos? Especially the ones by the balcony.
    Thanks again Mr Tracy for your keen analysis!

    • @davidgeisler9885
      @davidgeisler9885 3 дні тому +2

      Interestingly Hall and Fischer had access to weather reports predicting the impending storm later in the afternoon.
      It makes Rob’s decision making reading Doug all the more perplexing.

    • @jjzap2935
      @jjzap2935 3 дні тому +1

      @@davidgeisler9885 Yes, I commented a little more than a year ago that if anyone was a "villain" or the one that caused the most issues it was Doug. Especially considering how he had school children helping raise funds for his 2nd chance. Another bad call..
      And yes at the MM office we were not hearing anything out of the ordinary in fact most of it was sounding like our fearless leader was going to "make it happen" just like he always did.

  • @BS2Dos
    @BS2Dos 2 дні тому

    👍👍

  • @matthewgodwin4626
    @matthewgodwin4626 День тому

    Hi, Michael! Do you have any thoughts on Robert Edwards’ book on Mallory and Irvine? I’m just about to finish it and your contributions to the book were quite valuable I thought.
    Also, do you have any intention to make any videos which go over your life/background/mountaineering experience? I’m curious to learn more about the person who is narrating all of my cardio sessions…

    • @michaeltracy2356
      @michaeltracy2356  18 годин тому

      Edward's book is riddled with errors. After some point, it just became ridiculous to keep spotting them. While he does have a lot of useful information, that information seems to have been taken directly from my videos. No problem with someone doing that, but it appears little more that is accurate is in the book. I'll have a video about one of the particularly bad examples out later. He basically just made up the location of the ice axe and when I asked him for the file showing his work, he gave a "dog ate my homework" excuse. That is not what a legitimate researcher does.
      I have no intentions to get into my background, climbing, etc. My big criticism of the 1999/2019 team is that they make it all about them. It is like Mallory and Irvine are minor characters in their life story.

    • @matthewgodwin4626
      @matthewgodwin4626 5 годин тому

      ⁠@@michaeltracy2356I figured you thought as much. Do you have plans to write your own book about either Mallory and Irvine or 1996?

  • @vanzell1912
    @vanzell1912 2 дні тому

    😮

  • @whitedog510
    @whitedog510 3 дні тому +4

    Lopsang was tired because he carried Pittman over his shoulder from base camp and went back down for her espresso machine on summit day.

    • @michaeltracy2356
      @michaeltracy2356  3 дні тому +18

      Ang Dorje was also exhausted from carrying Jon Krakauer's ego.

    • @davem8836
      @davem8836 3 дні тому

      @@michaeltracy2356 And JDH is exhausted from all the brown nosing.

    • @d-railg4302
      @d-railg4302 3 дні тому +2

      LOL😂

    • @Peg-zl9lr
      @Peg-zl9lr 2 дні тому

      Her "espresso machine " was a fuckin aluminum coffee pot. They might weigh 8 Oz.