This is true, however this fact isn't established on the series for now. Even when Waver and Rider discussed about Gilgamesh killed Assassin, Rider specifically mentioned that "A Servant only have one Noble Phantasm", which can be his own misconception or all the Heroic Spirits themselves didn't fully aware of it.
Servants have like one though because the other noble phantasm they have is like not as strong as the one they should have like their trademark , main weapon or some shit
@@arlangunadi8674 It has actually, every weapon Gilgamesh is shooting is a Noble Phantasm it isnt just the Gate, every single weapon out of that gate is a noble phantasm
@@SheeeenaH Servants can have many Noble Phantasm, Iskander has 2, the bull and the reality Marble, Lancer also has 2 which are both his spears, Saber has Avalon and Excalibur and Gilgamesh well every weapon out of the Gate of Babylon is a noble phantasm grade weapon
@@illumination_0109 Gilgamesh kinda cheats since even his armor and the gate itself is an NP. Their power is quite weak compared to their power within their respective legends, but they are still all legendary weapons and other equipment like certain vehicle we see in few episodes.
You know what's so genius about Zero? They never present anyones Ideology as right or wrong! You can relate to Saber, because she did everything she was capable of doing, yet the negative outcome was inevitable. You can relate to Rider, because his way of thinking is arguably best for his people and inspires them greatly. And then for Archer, he doesn't really give a damn, to be honest, but mainly because this is his narrative function! He laughs at the different Ideologies and thinks that all their ways of thinking are in the end completely worthless!
That's what i lpve about Fate/Zero 7 Master 7 Servant, all have their own Ideology, all have different purpouse and all of them have a different goal even a simple goal have a deep impact on the character, and the clash between them is so beautifully delivered
I would actually disagree with that in this particular scene. I think rider is being presented as right in this instance. Possibly because Saber's journey in Zero is more nuanced than Rider's, and she needed something to wrestle with.
@@DiddntFindANameLolI’d argue that they’re both presented as being “right”, but Iskander wins out because he doesn’t have any regrets. They’re both equally valid ways to rule, but because Artoria has let her guilt consume her, she “loses” the argument.
Even after watching/reading a lot of fate characters. Iskander or Alexander the great is still upon my absolut favorites. This guy is just so damn good.
The interesting thing about the 3 Kings in this episode is they are all right and wrong about things. They come from very different times under very different circumstances and in each of their cases their kingdoms eventually fell. Saber does come off as the weakest in her arguments here as she is the only one willing to doubt herself and question what is right unlike the other two who believe they are correct in their ways no matter what would be said. but from the rest of the fate lore we know that she was a good king and respected as such by everyone around her, her kingdom eventually fell due to the rebellion and the events at camalann, but it was pretty unavoidable.
Its worth adding too, that to our modern sensibilities the other two are tyrants. Leaders who never admit fault, who control their countries for their own personal gain. Thousands died for Iskanders dream. Doubt, humility, subservience are all traditionally "weaknesses", but she's the only one even close to a modern ruler. Someone who accepts that they rule FOR the people, and has a responsibility to do right by them. Overall its a very interesting choice to make Iskander seem like the "correct" option here, I wonder if Nasu actually believes rider is correct or if he was just more concerned with building Arthur's journey.
@Wicker 2 I challenge you to prove the first statement there, cause I don't think you have any way to prove that. Modern doesn't equal right, but if we're comparing the trait of "caring about your people, and trying to make their lives better" vs "caring only about your own dream, and not giving a rats ass about your people's desires"... I mean you're welcome to champion either one but personally I don't like dictators.
@Wicker 2 I would argue that the difference here is that in the west “rulers” aren’t ACTUALLY looking out for their people the way artoria is, rather they simply claim to. They only tackle their own interests disregarding the people. While those rulers can’t make executive solo decisions, saying they’re concerned about the people’s well being is incorrect, and it could be argued those people are no different from the rulers of the past under a false pretense. In arturia’s case, unlike most western rulers, she genuinely questions her own values in the interest of her people, which I would argue is what makes a more reliable ruler, as they’re not shortsighted in their ideals and can actually make decisions based on understanding of both sides rather than only self interest. Of course, this is all just speculation and my personal opinion on things, so take it with a grain of salt
@Wicker 2 once again, my main argument for her is her ability for self criticism, that’s only exaggerated by rulers who truly believe in what they’re doing. They commit to it before acting on it, and because of that they are incapable of considering other possibilities BECAUSE they believe in what they’re doing
This episode made the viewer question about the philosophy of the two king. Saber was under rated in this scene because of the epicness of rider. Saber’s care for her people is the goal but rider’s care for the people is the means to reach his conquer. I understand riders point, but I admire saber’s kingship more.
I disagree and I think you kinda misunderstand the way Iskandar leads. It's not as selfish as he makes out. In fact, I'd argue that Iskandars way of kingship is better. See what Artoria admits is that she wants to shoulder everything alone, keep any hardship from her people, protect her people on her own, she thinks it's her responsability to do everything alone. And while that does create a Utopia for her people, it's also extremely shortsighted. People say that Camelot falling was unavoidable, and they are right but in a different way than they think. She's basically an overprotective parent. But that leads to her people relying on her. They were dependant on her because with her shouldering everything, they never learned anything. The end of Camelot was unavoidable because Arthur was still human, humans die, and the country was build in a way that if Artoria wasn't around anymore, there was nothing holding it together. It was a Utopia, but one that was destined to fall as soon as the king did, because she was the only one holding the entire country together. On the flipside, Iskandars way of leading was to inspire people, drive them to be better. Yes, it was definitely much harder living under Iskandar, but his people learned to strive to be like him. That way his people would become strong and independant. Once he died, there would be enough strong people left to take over. So ironically, King Arthur thinking that a king had to live for their people created a country that lived for their king. As soon as their king fell, the country would inevitably follow, while Iskandar thinking that the people live for their king, created a country that would outlast him, where everyone could take care of themselves.
@@EskChan19the way I see it both are good kings from different that accomplished great things Alexander spread Greek culture across the east founding influential cities Alexandria and Antioch Artoria turned a backwater war torn Roman province abandoned by the empire into a self sustaining kingdom and killed several mythical beast as well as fought of the Saxon invaders who respected her so much that instead of wiping her out of the pages of history they adopted her as the symbol of England and it’s people it’s even implied that the Saxons were the ones that found her body and buried her and Gilgamesh was the king who separated humanity from the gods and his subjects after abandoning Uruk would influence the people of Mesopotamia and help found great cities like Babylon these three kings are neither right nor wrong in their way of leadership but they obviously can’t see that
Each of them are amazing kings in their own right, this episode showed the loyalty of Iskander's followers, Babylonia showed why Gilgamesh is called the King of Heroes and Camelot 2 showed us another level to Artoria's character and how much the round table truly loved their king. 3 Goats.
@squidmom3162 it's called "Fate Grand Order Divine Realm: Camelot" and they split into 2 movies... the first one is slow and story building, the second is probably the best movie you'll ever watch as a Fate fan
Iskandar view about saber is always interesting to see, but saber(arthuria) lore is like 100000x more complex than raider think, i cant even imagine how iskandar doing if he put in saber shoes as the king of camelot/britain at that time lol
What would he say to his people? Yaaa die for me I bet Britain would fall faster than the speed of light, not even from an enemy, the people would just over through a tyrant 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@amalkacioui2262 Iskandar have enough charisma to rule a country, but the problem of Britain at that time is not just the country, the fae, Morgan, the dragons, and other Panthasmal being The dude not worthy wield the holy sword, no holy sword = it will become lostbelt 6 all over again
The problem with zero is that it fundamentally mishandles and misrepresents critical aspects of the lore and characters of later fate to the point people are still arguing about it even after so many years. A huge issue for the fandom. The reality is saber was a great king, the best king possible for the circumstances placed on her, a legendary figure people speak of in legend for ages into the future. It just so happened she got saddles with a situation that was inevitably going to collapse no matter what she did. Correctly throwing away her humanity to rule in the most effective manner is what caused her kingdom to flourish the most. It just came at the sacrifice of her own life and personal happiness.
according to fate lore, she didn't paid much attention to the other knights of round table as she thought her ideals are the best. And yes, Rider is correct, she wasn't fully fit to be a ruler, she was acting more like other knights, to sacrifice themselves first so that no other will bear the same pain. A king should try to have an organized nation, must listen to every requests and must try something to keep psychological balance in his troops and companions. She failed on keeping eyes and ears within her army which led to civil war. So the best ideals doesn't matter always, people will still try to ruin it no matter what. That's why past shouldn't change, it should be accepted and in future people must know the mistakes and learn from it.
@@scares3859your perception of fate lore is incorrect. The reality is sabers rule would collapse no matter what kind of king she was, and no matter what kind of ruler she tried to be, it's literally a quantum timelocked event that Camelot must fall under Arturias watch. It is made clear that her judgements were always on the correct side of the equation and her efficiency was always top rate. In order for this to be possible she had to close off herself from her human self who would not be able to rule in the first place. The knights did not abandon her because she didn't understand them. But because they didn't understand why she went so far for the sake of the kingdom. And the answer fate gives is because she cared about the people's happiness more than anything else. It's that simple. There was no "flaw" in sabers rule.
i just finished reading fate strange fake and what richard the lionheart said about saber and the other kings speeches change my view of saber like in this ep it is showd that saber is totally wrong but she isnt
@@scares3859 Try reading or listening Garden of Avalon CD drama Her "civil war" was barely a war. Mordred prepared rebellion for several years and yet it was very small, 11 out of 12 Dukes of Britain were loyal to Artoria no matter what and the only reason Camlann happened is because Mordred ambushed an already tired from expedition to Rome army on the way back home. Even then battle was lost because of actions of Artoria knights rather then her That's on top of the fact that her kingdom was destined to fall no matter what, it's literally Quantum timelocked into being destroyed. Camelot was just a clusterfuck, which couldn't be saved
I love the way you're reacting to this, you're clearly both enjoying it and not missing any important info and you also judge the characters really well. Dope reactions
@@A_Liner He can use some of the phantasms from his gates, but not most of them. Some of them he can activate, sure but most are just being launched He's even called out on that by Shirou in UBW, that he has countless NP but can't use them like an actual owner, who mastered their weapon their whole life
@@skychieftain That idea is not supported by the original works. He throws them because he does not need to use their ability. When it's needed, he uses them correctly. A lot of the weapons have passive abilities and it was discussed that fighting him head on is suicidal simply because you cannot know what each weapon is capable of, therefore your defensive options are nonexistent. That is why he is regarded as the Servant killer. Because he can throw hundreds of weapons at the same time with each being capable of killing a Servant.
Technically yes. After his failed quest of humanity he became a great king and babylon developed well in his time (to the extent they wrote the first piece of literature) and it was a time of peace unlike saber and it didn't dissolve into civil wars after his death like iskandar
Caster Gilgamesh after quest of immortality where he wisened up, sure The Archer Gil though is from the time of his legend where he was a pretty bad king
@@Titanfell-d3i its not that he's bad, mesopotamia gods is kinda a d*ck head especially ishtar thats why gilgamesh have that attitude until enkidu happen
@@arts1628 Lol, since when other gods being horrible excuse Gilgamesh's own actions It's not just gods, in Gil Archer FSN profile his rule before Enkidu was literally described as oppression and his people literally begged gods to do something and gods created Enkidu to beat some sense in Gil. Like how bad could you be if your own people who know how bad their gods are, still decide to beg them to do something about you because your rule is that bad? Gil Archer is just a bad king, plain and simple, he didn't care about his people at all, only about himself. He became a great ruler after his quest of immortality but before he was a real douchebag even if Enkidu calmed him down somewhat And don't get me started on his tendencies towards Saber
Unfortunately, since fate zero isn't written by the same writer as stay night, the author misunderstands Saber completely. She was actually the best king possible for her people, and if she was written in character, she wouldn't have been fazed by Rider's words. The thing about the three kings is that if you switched their places and gave each one of them the other's kingdom, they would fail. Each one of them was exactly what their kingdoms needed. You should check Deen's fate anime(I would recommand reading the visual novel but most people don't have the time for that, but if you do, it's much better) and I'm sure you'll respect her kingship a lot more
I get the issues with Zero, but it its defense, unlike Shirou who is only opposed to Saber's feeling of regret (he considers her a great king), Rider not only criticizes that but her way of king altogether, which supports her own assumption that's she wasn't a suitable king for her kingdom, so I would say that it's not illogical that she's more easily affected by Rider's words as he's basically confirming what she's regretting over. After all, what Rider said about her acting too much like a saint, thus creating a distance between her and her people isn't exactly untrue. Plus, since Zero is supposed to lay the foundation for SN (to an extent), I think it's reasonable that the story puts her in a position that amplifies her self-blame, in order to fuels her desire for the Grail even more in the main storyline. Still, I agree that no one here should be seen as the "wrong" one tho, just different perspectives and circumstances.
@@tututututu9782 Hm, that's a good point! I can see that. This might be a nitpick, but I also think this episode felt a little too one sided, like I wish we heard more about Gilgamesh's thoughts on ruling, we eventually see how he rules in FGO, but I think having him join in more with this conversation would've made it more compelling. I hope they get around to reacting to the rest of the fate series to see more of Gilgamesh and Saber
Right. It's something nasu goes back to too many times to count even after fate route. Apocrypha, Camelot, especially lost belt 6. Validating Arturia kingship is just something important to fate for him
@@tututututu9782 the issue with this argument is that fate stay night already lays groundwork for sabers character. Saber would brush off what someone like iskandar said to her. She crushes "normal" kings like him every day who came to conquer her land from behind the sea. She only is shaken by shirous words because they are similar to one another and are in love with each other, so every word hits like a sledgehammer because they understand one another. In addition, arturia already hated herself prior to being summoned. That's why she took the contract of the world to(become a servant) begin with. Merely having someone she doesn't know tell her what she was already thinking would not make her freak out, just make her more determined to do what she was already doing. In short, zero doesn't explain anything about fsn saber. And isn't even consistent with her backstory let alone her character. This is why Nasu consider uros contribution to fate an alternate timeline rather than a direct prequel to fsn.
She's still a king by her achievments but not a king in the spirit, well that's what Iskandar said but that's still not necesserly true but the anime did saber dirty because the saber I know from the light novel would have been able to respond even though I still respect Iskandar and he still has some good arguments
He's wrong and right a bit at the same time if we see in his perspective at least, in the lore tho what happen in camelot and the round table knight is mooore complex than what raider thinking
Yeah. Most of the lore is pretty clear about Saber doing a good run. The problem with Camelot was about a lot of personalities going amok at once. Most of the Knights even admitted that they were in the wrong later. Heck, even Mordred admitted it. When Iskandar says that she was blind to the plight of the people, he was wrong too. She was always suffering with the aftermath of her choices and how they impacted her Knights, but felt regret that she couldn't change that. But in the end, when multiple forces are raging against you, and you are still able to buy your kingdom of insatisfied subjects who were manipulated into a position of treason, 10 more years, you have to understand you did well (specially when your main foe is Morgan Le Fae). Even so, she is so selfless that she thought herself not fit to be a king. That tells a lot of how good a king she was. She was as great as Iskandar, for different reasons.
after that many episodes you dont know Iskandar identity? Iskandar is the real name of what happened later to be Alexander the Great. the greek guy who canquered the huge persian empire. back then he though he canquered nearly the entire world... in the end if u compare he's lands to russia it compare a pond to the great sea... great alexander died at age 33, from ilness. gilgamesh not surely is historic figure. archeologists found about gilgamesh 100-200 years ago and centered he's epos for the great story telling.. of the earliest hero, unstopable king. king arthur is abit more complex... so when the roman empire took over britian there was huge fight with the celts over the land... a roman general named Lucious Arthurious Castus won the battle and became legand. hunderds years later a mythologist messiah was made on name of Arthur. and he was the rightess king of all stories. pepole in history belived in the legands and waited for the rightful king to comeback from he's mythology to save them.. even hundreds years after. (thats why i said messiah) funny u agree with alexander and gilgamesh more in this argue... since then both kings from before the centuary.. and king arthur was a legand about the absolut perfect king he pressanted
The thing about a king who must embody both extremes of good and evil is basically equivalent to being a god where a king/god's will is not something that can be easily understood, and their actions and powers are beyond the comprehsion of the common man. It is for this reason, among many other reasons, a true deity is also not easy to understand and why God exists.
Iskander is one of my fav 1st is karna (cause i have more knowledge of him than most of you; since I'm south east asian I'm well versed in hindu mythology) also he appeares in fate apocrypha totally nearfed though 2nd is Iskander
Personally I agree more with Altria-- err, Saber Not completely, but I prefer her version of kingship And I do think she was right about that version of Gilgamesh, and Iskandar being tyrants
That's why I prefer Gilgamesh Caster, despite him having a high ego he really did everything to save Babylonia and was very understandable, in addition to being charismatic and willing to sacrifice himself to save everyone. And he's also very charismatic and isn't an asshole like Gilgamesh Archer.
Arthur already giving some hints on Berserker real identity.. too bad Arthur felt that what she had done is always will bring the greater good for Brittania (her people is the true king, and she’s merely a slave fighting for the king)
Waiting for ending ..bocz it's too brutal...and too opp..react more pls....the best has yet to come...heaven feel and unlimited blade works is goat 🔥🔥🔥♥️
@@kuronekomema Neither are Gilgamesh and Iskandar. They're anime characters lmao. The real/mythical Gilgamesh was not like Fate Gilgamesh The real Alexander was not like Iskandar
My personal opinion though, the more you dig into Type-Moon, then you can truly understand properly, same applied on me who are not able to touch tons of its other franchises because my limited life span as a human is not allowing me to Saber's ideal is more higher level than a human king like Iskandar, he did achieve true human king which is a highest visible achievement that a human hero can achieved, he is doing great in that level, but Saber's ideal is next-tier difficulity In Type-Moon universe(Fate is maybe 30% of it), it is far more than a intra race human king is enough, it includes far more level to outer space, as a species, how we prepare and behave ourselves relatively to all things outer of our reality usually human-moral, human-planet, human-aliens, human-universe law and more So Saber's ideal is actually surpassed Iskandar's, although she actually done great to build Camelot as the foundation and benficial to the future human but it is ending up with a bad end as her Camelot had to be collapse, alter it may ruins the upcoming humanity, and the fate of her Camelot and the future of humanity is still hanging there if you actually know the Camelot Saber's detail background, she is still a unfinishing entity when you seeing her in higher time-space dimension like the planet's point of view, her ideal is at the level of human-moral, that human have to reach all the nodes of archetype in the Tree of Life Kabbalah(Type Moon have their own interpretation of it, for short the efforts and values to have by the human to achieve true ideal kingdom of human)so that human can fully prepared as a proper species to step further of outer Solar-system without getting feedback from our own uncleared karma which is manifested as Beast mentioned in various titles, and capable to face true trial from the cosmic system such like Veiber, becoming a true verified being who carried planet's wish(this is not sure, but in my view planet's wish is to have her free will, which is to bear human as intellect beings and spread it out to the death of universe) So, Gilgamesh is acknowledge this level of vision, he recognize the achievement of Iskandar, but he also know where the level of Saber's ideal being at, Saber's ideal building a type of flawless system by having good people is just one of the way to unify every human beings but still too impossible for current path of humanity(Saber wasn't aware of this and still wondering having a wish to undone her Camelot, but Gil seen it thru already), so he actually find Saber's struggling for the good cause is interesting and exciting, because it is similiar to his good intention to humans just like how his ruling being described in FGO's Babylonia but in more idealistic but fair-for-all way than his
One of the best episodes and events whenever someone refers to Fate/Zero. Too bad I just cannot help but remember the last time I experienced it through a Chinese fanfiction so my opinion is tainted now (It was a fanfiction where someone became a multiversal shenron with each world having its own set of Dragon Balls. Saber ended up using them to wish for a copy of her kingdom in a separate dimension where it is untouched by war. That author really helped her get closure in that arc.)
Three kings? OK I see Arthoria but Whare's the other two? Sorry but I don't care about who's personality looks cooler, the two of them are not even half the king Arthoria is
While this is a good episode, i still don't like it to be honest. just for the reason of how the writer treated Saber in the conversation. The writer downgraded Saber severely for the sake of making Rider appear more epic. the fall of Britain is way more complex then Rider thinks. While it's arguable to say that Saber is the perfect king. she is undoubtedly a better one than Rider in my opinion.
i think that would be the sickest noble phantasm i didnt there's a better one. your wrong your still at fate zero more sick noble phantasm are yet to come when you go deeper into the fate anime
well Gilgamesh is realy have HOLY GRAIL, just Watch Fate/Grand Order Babylon, also Fate/Grand Order : Time Tample Solomon. wel of course after you watch Fate/Stay Night (UBW and HF)
Nah dude, Gilgamesh way of ruling is indeed one of the best king in the series. But Iskandar way is not any better compared to Artoria. I would even said Artoria way of ruling still better than Iskandar.
Idk bout that last part, when you look at Caster Gilgamesh's noble phantasm is very similar in concept to Iskandar's, a materialization of his people fighting alongside him by the way of Melammu Dingir
@@venom890 Caster Gilgamesh is also similar to Artoria, ironically enough in the sense that he puts his people before his own health. He literally overworked himself to death, trying to protect his kingdom and people
That's literally not true at all? What the hell have you been reading. Fate go goes out of its way to say that arturia is not only valid but is one of the best kings in history. And gil eventually becomes her type of king
True but Saber has the most updated skillset for FGO standards. Sucks that they abandoned Gilgamesh after giving him an animation overhaul and still on its vanilla skillset.
@@KikolitsGaming If you really don't know, Altria is the "correct / first" name from Japan or type moon The problem is Altria can be translate as Arthoria from hiragana / katakana to abc That's why Merlin in Fate / Babylon call Altria and in Fate / Extella Even in Aniplex, it's Altria you can check on youtube Aniplex USA which basically FGO Basically, altria is from creator, artoria from "false" translator (but fans already use it for too long)
@@kiddo7765 funfact artoria is real surname in ancient rome, and It is hypothesized that King Arthur was based on a Roman, named Lucius Artorius Castus.
honestly this is the first time ive seen someone actually understands what gilgamesh is saying here yes gilgamesh quite literally had EVERY TREASURE in his treasury when he was alive and everything after his death is either a cheap copy or taken from his treasury either way it traces back to him so it belongs to him
What I find really compelling about the discussion is that Sabers and Iskandars ideals pretty much have the opposite effect of what they claim, and in that way, Iskandars way of leading is somewhat better than Artoria. See what Artoria admits is that she wants to shoulder everything alone, keep any hardship from her people, protect her people on her own, she thinks it's her responsability to do everything alone. And while that does create a Utopia for her people, it's also extremely shortsighted. People say that Camelot falling was unavoidable, and they are right but in a different way than they think. She's basically an overprotective parent. But that leads to her people relying on her. They were dependant on her because with her shouldering everything, they never learned anything. The end of Camelot was unavoidable because Arthur was still human, humans die, and the country was build in a way that if Artoria wasn't around anymore, there was nothing holding it together. It was a Utopia, but one that was destined to fall as soon as the king did, because she was the only one holding the entire country together. On the flipside, Iskandars way of leading was to inspire people, drive them to be better. Yes, it was definitely much harder living under Iskandar, but his people learned to strive to be like him. That way his people would become strong and independant. Once he died, there would be enough strong people left to take over. So ironically, King Arthur thinking that a king had to live for their people created a country that lived for their king. As soon as their king fell, the country would inevitably follow, while Iskandar thinking that the people live for their king, created a country that would outlast him, where everyone could take care of themselves.
Rider is a facist tyrant driven by greed and selfishness. Somehow the author managed to make him so charismatic that half of the audience really doesn't understand what they're cheering for and what his wish coming true would mean for humanity. Awesomely written character.
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Just so you guys know, a servant can have multiple noble phantasms, not just one.
This is true, however this fact isn't established on the series for now. Even when Waver and Rider discussed about Gilgamesh killed Assassin, Rider specifically mentioned that "A Servant only have one Noble Phantasm", which can be his own misconception or all the Heroic Spirits themselves didn't fully aware of it.
Servants have like one though because the other noble phantasm they have is like not as strong as the one they should have like their trademark , main weapon or some shit
@@arlangunadi8674 It has actually, every weapon Gilgamesh is shooting is a Noble Phantasm it isnt just the Gate, every single weapon out of that gate is a noble phantasm
@@SheeeenaH Servants can have many Noble Phantasm, Iskander has 2, the bull and the reality Marble, Lancer also has 2 which are both his spears, Saber has Avalon and Excalibur and Gilgamesh well every weapon out of the Gate of Babylon is a noble phantasm grade weapon
@@illumination_0109 Gilgamesh kinda cheats since even his armor and the gate itself is an NP. Their power is quite weak compared to their power within their respective legends, but they are still all legendary weapons and other equipment like certain vehicle we see in few episodes.
You know what's so genius about Zero? They never present anyones Ideology as right or wrong! You can relate to Saber, because she did everything she was capable of doing, yet the negative outcome was inevitable. You can relate to Rider, because his way of thinking is arguably best for his people and inspires them greatly. And then for Archer, he doesn't really give a damn, to be honest, but mainly because this is his narrative function! He laughs at the different Ideologies and thinks that all their ways of thinking are in the end completely worthless!
That's what i lpve about Fate/Zero
7 Master 7 Servant, all have their own Ideology, all have different purpouse and all of them have a different goal
even a simple goal have a deep impact on the character, and the clash between them is so beautifully delivered
I would actually disagree with that in this particular scene. I think rider is being presented as right in this instance. Possibly because Saber's journey in Zero is more nuanced than Rider's, and she needed something to wrestle with.
@@DiddntFindANameLolI’d argue that they’re both presented as being “right”, but Iskander wins out because he doesn’t have any regrets. They’re both equally valid ways to rule, but because Artoria has let her guilt consume her, she “loses” the argument.
Even after watching/reading a lot of fate characters. Iskander or Alexander the great is still upon my absolut favorites. This guy is just so damn good.
This is the episode where gilgamesh stopped calling arthur and iskander as mongrels
The interesting thing about the 3 Kings in this episode is they are all right and wrong about things.
They come from very different times under very different circumstances and in each of their cases their kingdoms eventually fell.
Saber does come off as the weakest in her arguments here as she is the only one willing to doubt herself and question what is right unlike the other two who believe they are correct in their ways no matter what would be said.
but from the rest of the fate lore we know that she was a good king and respected as such by everyone around her, her kingdom eventually fell due to the rebellion and the events at camalann, but it was pretty unavoidable.
Its worth adding too, that to our modern sensibilities the other two are tyrants. Leaders who never admit fault, who control their countries for their own personal gain. Thousands died for Iskanders dream.
Doubt, humility, subservience are all traditionally "weaknesses", but she's the only one even close to a modern ruler. Someone who accepts that they rule FOR the people, and has a responsibility to do right by them.
Overall its a very interesting choice to make Iskander seem like the "correct" option here, I wonder if Nasu actually believes rider is correct or if he was just more concerned with building Arthur's journey.
@Wicker 2 I challenge you to prove the first statement there, cause I don't think you have any way to prove that.
Modern doesn't equal right, but if we're comparing the trait of "caring about your people, and trying to make their lives better" vs "caring only about your own dream, and not giving a rats ass about your people's desires"... I mean you're welcome to champion either one but personally I don't like dictators.
@Wicker 2 I would argue that the difference here is that in the west “rulers” aren’t ACTUALLY looking out for their people the way artoria is, rather they simply claim to. They only tackle their own interests disregarding the people. While those rulers can’t make executive solo decisions, saying they’re concerned about the people’s well being is incorrect, and it could be argued those people are no different from the rulers of the past under a false pretense.
In arturia’s case, unlike most western rulers, she genuinely questions her own values in the interest of her people, which I would argue is what makes a more reliable ruler, as they’re not shortsighted in their ideals and can actually make decisions based on understanding of both sides rather than only self interest.
Of course, this is all just speculation and my personal opinion on things, so take it with a grain of salt
@Wicker 2 once again, my main argument for her is her ability for self criticism, that’s only exaggerated by rulers who truly believe in what they’re doing. They commit to it before acting on it, and because of that they are incapable of considering other possibilities BECAUSE they believe in what they’re doing
BEHOLD MY ULTIMATE POWER! THE GREATEST TREASURE! THE FRIENDS I MADE ALONG THE WAY
This is one of my favorite episodes of anything, three kings drinking and discussing philosophy together, each a triametric foil to each other.
This episode made the viewer question about the philosophy of the two king.
Saber was under rated in this scene because of the epicness of rider.
Saber’s care for her people is the goal but rider’s care for the people is the means to reach his conquer.
I understand riders point, but I admire saber’s kingship more.
I disagree and I think you kinda misunderstand the way Iskandar leads. It's not as selfish as he makes out. In fact, I'd argue that Iskandars way of kingship is better.
See what Artoria admits is that she wants to shoulder everything alone, keep any hardship from her people, protect her people on her own, she thinks it's her responsability to do everything alone. And while that does create a Utopia for her people, it's also extremely shortsighted. People say that Camelot falling was unavoidable, and they are right but in a different way than they think. She's basically an overprotective parent. But that leads to her people relying on her. They were dependant on her because with her shouldering everything, they never learned anything. The end of Camelot was unavoidable because Arthur was still human, humans die, and the country was build in a way that if Artoria wasn't around anymore, there was nothing holding it together. It was a Utopia, but one that was destined to fall as soon as the king did, because she was the only one holding the entire country together.
On the flipside, Iskandars way of leading was to inspire people, drive them to be better. Yes, it was definitely much harder living under Iskandar, but his people learned to strive to be like him. That way his people would become strong and independant. Once he died, there would be enough strong people left to take over.
So ironically, King Arthur thinking that a king had to live for their people created a country that lived for their king. As soon as their king fell, the country would inevitably follow, while Iskandar thinking that the people live for their king, created a country that would outlast him, where everyone could take care of themselves.
@@EskChan19the way I see it both are good kings from different that accomplished great things Alexander spread Greek culture across the east founding influential cities Alexandria and Antioch Artoria turned a backwater war torn Roman province abandoned by the empire into a self sustaining kingdom and killed several mythical beast as well as fought of the Saxon invaders who respected her so much that instead of wiping her out of the pages of history they adopted her as the symbol of England and it’s people it’s even implied that the Saxons were the ones that found her body and buried her and Gilgamesh was the king who separated humanity from the gods and his subjects after abandoning Uruk would influence the people of Mesopotamia and help found great cities like Babylon these three kings are neither right nor wrong in their way of leadership but they obviously can’t see that
Each of them are amazing kings in their own right, this episode showed the loyalty of Iskander's followers, Babylonia showed why Gilgamesh is called the King of Heroes and Camelot 2 showed us another level to Artoria's character and how much the round table truly loved their king.
3 Goats.
Wait what was Camelot 2? I haven’t heard of that one
@squidmom3162 it's called "Fate Grand Order Divine Realm: Camelot" and they split into 2 movies... the first one is slow and story building, the second is probably the best movie you'll ever watch as a Fate fan
@@mad-scientist I’ll have to check it out! Thanks for letting me know
Iskandar view about saber is always interesting to see, but saber(arthuria) lore is like 100000x more complex than raider think, i cant even imagine how iskandar doing if he put in saber shoes as the king of camelot/britain at that time lol
What would he say to his people?
Yaaa die for me
I bet Britain would fall faster than the speed of light, not even from an enemy, the people would just over through a tyrant
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@amalkacioui2262 Iskandar have enough charisma to rule a country, but the problem of Britain at that time is not just the country, the fae, Morgan, the dragons, and other Panthasmal being
The dude not worthy wield the holy sword, no holy sword = it will become lostbelt 6 all over again
The problem with zero is that it fundamentally mishandles and misrepresents critical aspects of the lore and characters of later fate to the point people are still arguing about it even after so many years. A huge issue for the fandom.
The reality is saber was a great king, the best king possible for the circumstances placed on her, a legendary figure people speak of in legend for ages into the future. It just so happened she got saddles with a situation that was inevitably going to collapse no matter what she did.
Correctly throwing away her humanity to rule in the most effective manner is what caused her kingdom to flourish the most. It just came at the sacrifice of her own life and personal happiness.
according to fate lore, she didn't paid much attention to the other knights of round table as she thought her ideals are the best. And yes, Rider is correct, she wasn't fully fit to be a ruler, she was acting more like other knights, to sacrifice themselves first so that no other will bear the same pain. A king should try to have an organized nation, must listen to every requests and must try something to keep psychological balance in his troops and companions. She failed on keeping eyes and ears within her army which led to civil war. So the best ideals doesn't matter always, people will still try to ruin it no matter what. That's why past shouldn't change, it should be accepted and in future people must know the mistakes and learn from it.
@@scares3859your perception of fate lore is incorrect. The reality is sabers rule would collapse no matter what kind of king she was, and no matter what kind of ruler she tried to be, it's literally a quantum timelocked event that Camelot must fall under Arturias watch.
It is made clear that her judgements were always on the correct side of the equation and her efficiency was always top rate. In order for this to be possible she had to close off herself from her human self who would not be able to rule in the first place.
The knights did not abandon her because she didn't understand them. But because they didn't understand why she went so far for the sake of the kingdom. And the answer fate gives is because she cared about the people's happiness more than anything else. It's that simple. There was no "flaw" in sabers rule.
@@MrInuhanyou123 i see, thanks for the information
i just finished reading fate strange fake and what richard the lionheart said about saber and the other kings speeches change my view of saber like in this ep it is showd that saber is totally wrong but she isnt
@@scares3859 Try reading or listening Garden of Avalon CD drama
Her "civil war" was barely a war. Mordred prepared rebellion for several years and yet it was very small, 11 out of 12 Dukes of Britain were loyal to Artoria no matter what and the only reason Camlann happened is because Mordred ambushed an already tired from expedition to Rome army on the way back home. Even then battle was lost because of actions of Artoria knights rather then her
That's on top of the fact that her kingdom was destined to fall no matter what, it's literally Quantum timelocked into being destroyed. Camelot was just a clusterfuck, which couldn't be saved
I love the way you're reacting to this, you're clearly both enjoying it and not missing any important info and you also judge the characters really well. Dope reactions
Wait for Gilgamesh he'll not disappoint!
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Just so you know, Gilgamesh has more than 100 Noble phantasms.
He can't use their actual power though. All he can do is toss them.
@@skychieftain wait, I thought he actually can use em? Just, that's his preferred style to fight...by launching them, like an archer usually do.
@@A_Liner no. He can only use very few. 99% of them are just thrown weapons. He cannot use their true power.
@@A_Liner He can use some of the phantasms from his gates, but not most of them. Some of them he can activate, sure but most are just being launched
He's even called out on that by Shirou in UBW, that he has countless NP but can't use them like an actual owner, who mastered their weapon their whole life
@@skychieftain
That idea is not supported by the original works. He throws them because he does not need to use their ability. When it's needed, he uses them correctly.
A lot of the weapons have passive abilities and it was discussed that fighting him head on is suicidal simply because you cannot know what each weapon is capable of, therefore your defensive options are nonexistent. That is why he is regarded as the Servant killer. Because he can throw hundreds of weapons at the same time with each being capable of killing a Servant.
The best king here ofc is Gilgamesh
Technically yes.
After his failed quest of humanity he became a great king and babylon developed well in his time (to the extent they wrote the first piece of literature) and it was a time of peace unlike saber and it didn't dissolve into civil wars after his death like iskandar
Caster Gilgamesh after quest of immortality where he wisened up, sure
The Archer Gil though is from the time of his legend where he was a pretty bad king
archer gil ? no
caster gil ? yes
@@Titanfell-d3i its not that he's bad, mesopotamia gods is kinda a d*ck head especially ishtar thats why gilgamesh have that attitude until enkidu happen
@@arts1628 Lol, since when other gods being horrible excuse Gilgamesh's own actions It's not just gods, in Gil Archer FSN profile his rule before Enkidu was literally described as oppression and his people literally begged gods to do something and gods created Enkidu to beat some sense in Gil.
Like how bad could you be if your own people who know how bad their gods are, still decide to beg them to do something about you because your rule is that bad? Gil Archer is just a bad king, plain and simple, he didn't care about his people at all, only about himself. He became a great ruler after his quest of immortality but before he was a real douchebag even if Enkidu calmed him down somewhat
And don't get me started on his tendencies towards Saber
Unfortunately, since fate zero isn't written by the same writer as stay night, the author misunderstands Saber completely. She was actually the best king possible for her people, and if she was written in character, she wouldn't have been fazed by Rider's words.
The thing about the three kings is that if you switched their places and gave each one of them the other's kingdom, they would fail. Each one of them was exactly what their kingdoms needed.
You should check Deen's fate anime(I would recommand reading the visual novel but most people don't have the time for that, but if you do, it's much better) and I'm sure you'll respect her kingship a lot more
I get the issues with Zero, but it its defense, unlike Shirou who is only opposed to Saber's feeling of regret (he considers her a great king), Rider not only criticizes that but her way of king altogether, which supports her own assumption that's she wasn't a suitable king for her kingdom, so I would say that it's not illogical that she's more easily affected by Rider's words as he's basically confirming what she's regretting over. After all, what Rider said about her acting too much like a saint, thus creating a distance between her and her people isn't exactly untrue. Plus, since Zero is supposed to lay the foundation for SN (to an extent), I think it's reasonable that the story puts her in a position that amplifies her self-blame, in order to fuels her desire for the Grail even more in the main storyline.
Still, I agree that no one here should be seen as the "wrong" one tho, just different perspectives and circumstances.
@@tututututu9782 Hm, that's a good point! I can see that.
This might be a nitpick, but I also think this episode felt a little too one sided, like I wish we heard more about Gilgamesh's thoughts on ruling, we eventually see how he rules in FGO, but I think having him join in more with this conversation would've made it more compelling. I hope they get around to reacting to the rest of the fate series to see more of Gilgamesh and Saber
Right. It's something nasu goes back to too many times to count even after fate route. Apocrypha, Camelot, especially lost belt 6. Validating Arturia kingship is just something important to fate for him
@@tututututu9782 the issue with this argument is that fate stay night already lays groundwork for sabers character. Saber would brush off what someone like iskandar said to her. She crushes "normal" kings like him every day who came to conquer her land from behind the sea. She only is shaken by shirous words because they are similar to one another and are in love with each other, so every word hits like a sledgehammer because they understand one another.
In addition, arturia already hated herself prior to being summoned. That's why she took the contract of the world to(become a servant) begin with. Merely having someone she doesn't know tell her what she was already thinking would not make her freak out, just make her more determined to do what she was already doing.
In short, zero doesn't explain anything about fsn saber. And isn't even consistent with her backstory let alone her character. This is why Nasu consider uros contribution to fate an alternate timeline rather than a direct prequel to fsn.
She's still a king by her achievments but not a king in the spirit, well that's what Iskandar said but that's still not necesserly true but the anime did saber dirty because the saber I know from the light novel would have been able to respond even though I still respect Iskandar and he still has some good arguments
Like you said it's not even true.
He's wrong and right a bit at the same time if we see in his perspective at least, in the lore tho what happen in camelot and the round table knight is mooore complex than what raider thinking
Yeah. Most of the lore is pretty clear about Saber doing a good run. The problem with Camelot was about a lot of personalities going amok at once. Most of the Knights even admitted that they were in the wrong later. Heck, even Mordred admitted it. When Iskandar says that she was blind to the plight of the people, he was wrong too. She was always suffering with the aftermath of her choices and how they impacted her Knights, but felt regret that she couldn't change that. But in the end, when multiple forces are raging against you, and you are still able to buy your kingdom of insatisfied subjects who were manipulated into a position of treason, 10 more years, you have to understand you did well (specially when your main foe is Morgan Le Fae). Even so, she is so selfless that she thought herself not fit to be a king. That tells a lot of how good a king she was. She was as great as Iskandar, for different reasons.
Ahh yes the 3 kings meeting
there about 3k years gap between each king so... cool !
Saber: A tyrant can't have followers-
Rider: Says you lol
after that many episodes you dont know Iskandar identity?
Iskandar is the real name of what happened later to be Alexander the Great. the greek guy who canquered the huge persian empire.
back then he though he canquered nearly the entire world... in the end if u compare he's lands to russia it compare a pond to the great sea...
great alexander died at age 33, from ilness.
gilgamesh not surely is historic figure. archeologists found about gilgamesh 100-200 years ago and centered he's epos for the great story telling.. of the earliest hero, unstopable king.
king arthur is abit more complex... so when the roman empire took over britian there was huge fight with the celts over the land... a roman general named Lucious Arthurious Castus won the battle and became legand.
hunderds years later a mythologist messiah was made on name of Arthur. and he was the rightess king of all stories.
pepole in history belived in the legands and waited for the rightful king to comeback from he's mythology to save them.. even hundreds years after. (thats why i said messiah)
funny u agree with alexander and gilgamesh more in this argue... since then both kings from before the centuary.. and king arthur was a legand about the absolut perfect king he pressanted
Admit it. This is the best episode of season 1
Banquet of Kings is legit one of my all time favourite anime episodes...
The thing about a king who must embody both extremes of good and evil is basically equivalent to being a god where a king/god's will is not something that can be easily understood, and their actions and powers are beyond the comprehsion of the common man.
It is for this reason, among many other reasons, a true deity is also not easy to understand and why God exists.
One of the best episodes of all times
Iskander is Alexander the Great
finally got this episode!!
Rin was in Unlimited Blade Works of course she has to live haha
Neel & faxx: How do you compete against armies of Iskander
Me: hehe two alphabets E A
Iskander is one of my fav
1st is karna (cause i have more knowledge of him than most of you; since I'm south east asian I'm well versed in hindu mythology) also he appeares in fate apocrypha totally nearfed though
2nd is Iskander
Karna is probably in my top 5 out of 26 servants I can think of off the top of my head
Personally I agree more with Altria-- err, Saber
Not completely, but I prefer her version of kingship
And I do think she was right about that version of Gilgamesh, and Iskandar being tyrants
They are tyrants
That's why I prefer Gilgamesh Caster, despite him having a high ego he really did everything to save Babylonia and was very understandable, in addition to being charismatic and willing to sacrifice himself to save everyone. And he's also very charismatic and isn't an asshole like Gilgamesh Archer.
Have you guys done any research on the heroes you know so far?
Arthur already giving some hints on Berserker real identity.. too bad Arthur felt that what she had done is always will bring the greater good for Brittania (her people is the true king, and she’s merely a slave fighting for the king)
She was talking about Tristan tho , not Lancelot .
Rider's second most glorious moment in F/zero. This is one of the reasons why he's respected by all
Waiting for ending ..bocz it's too brutal...and too opp..react more pls....the best has yet to come...heaven feel and unlimited blade works is goat 🔥🔥🔥♥️
Iskander, Alexander the Great.
They are the same person but still we are able to summon them differently just like kid Gill
Arthur is the ideal king (too perfect).
Alexander is the conquering king (normal).
Gugames is the tyrant king (too bad).
More like
Arthur the self sacrificing king
Iskander the conquering greedy king
Gilgamesh the tyrannical evil king
Arthur is the ideal king, because he's not even a real person...
@@kuronekomema Neither are Gilgamesh and Iskandar. They're anime characters lmao.
The real/mythical Gilgamesh was not like Fate Gilgamesh
The real Alexander was not like Iskandar
Gugames, nice.
It's possible for a servant to have more than one noble phantasm
his name is Alexander
Them laughing about how Gilgamesh thinks he’s a god, but Gilgamesh literally is 2/3 Creation god.
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My personal opinion though, the more you dig into Type-Moon, then you can truly understand properly, same applied on me who are not able to touch tons of its other franchises because my limited life span as a human is not allowing me to
Saber's ideal is more higher level than a human king like Iskandar, he did achieve true human king which is a highest visible achievement that a human hero can achieved, he is doing great in that level, but Saber's ideal is next-tier difficulity
In Type-Moon universe(Fate is maybe 30% of it), it is far more than a intra race human king is enough, it includes far more level to outer space, as a species, how we prepare and behave ourselves relatively to all things outer of our reality usually human-moral, human-planet, human-aliens, human-universe law and more
So Saber's ideal is actually surpassed Iskandar's, although she actually done great to build Camelot as the foundation and benficial to the future human but it is ending up with a bad end as her Camelot had to be collapse, alter it may ruins the upcoming humanity, and the fate of her Camelot and the future of humanity is still hanging there if you actually know the Camelot Saber's detail background, she is still a unfinishing entity when you seeing her in higher time-space dimension like the planet's point of view, her ideal is at the level of human-moral, that human have to reach all the nodes of archetype in the Tree of Life Kabbalah(Type Moon have their own interpretation of it, for short the efforts and values to have by the human to achieve true ideal kingdom of human)so that human can fully prepared as a proper species to step further of outer Solar-system without getting feedback from our own uncleared karma which is manifested as Beast mentioned in various titles, and capable to face true trial from the cosmic system such like Veiber, becoming a true verified being who carried planet's wish(this is not sure, but in my view planet's wish is to have her free will, which is to bear human as intellect beings and spread it out to the death of universe)
So, Gilgamesh is acknowledge this level of vision, he recognize the achievement of Iskandar, but he also know where the level of Saber's ideal being at, Saber's ideal building a type of flawless system by having good people is just one of the way to unify every human beings but still too impossible for current path of humanity(Saber wasn't aware of this and still wondering having a wish to undone her Camelot, but Gil seen it thru already), so he actually find Saber's struggling for the good cause is interesting and exciting, because it is similiar to his good intention to humans just like how his ruling being described in FGO's Babylonia but in more idealistic but fair-for-all way than his
Rider weaponized bromance.
Where do you guys watch fate zero on, it has some scenes that i never saw lol. Perhaps you can point me to the website
Netflix. Probably, crunchyroll censored parts of it if that is where you watched it
@@KittyNoo Netflix (confirmed) and suipposedly Hulu (unconfirmed) are uncesnored. Crunchyroll is censored.
gil is my king
One of the best episodes and events whenever someone refers to Fate/Zero.
Too bad I just cannot help but remember the last time I experienced it through a Chinese fanfiction so my opinion is tainted now (It was a fanfiction where someone became a multiversal shenron with each world having its own set of Dragon Balls. Saber ended up using them to wish for a copy of her kingdom in a separate dimension where it is untouched by war. That author really helped her get closure in that arc.)
bro classsroom of elite is out
Three kings?
OK I see Arthoria but Whare's the other two?
Sorry but I don't care about who's personality looks cooler, the two of them are not even half the king Arthoria is
Yes siir
While this is a good episode, i still don't like it to be honest. just for the reason of how the writer treated Saber in the conversation. The writer downgraded Saber severely for the sake of making Rider appear more epic. the fall of Britain is way more complex then Rider thinks. While it's arguable to say that Saber is the perfect king. she is undoubtedly a better one than Rider in my opinion.
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i think that would be the sickest noble phantasm i didnt there's a better one.
your wrong your still at fate zero more sick noble phantasm are yet to come when you go deeper into the fate anime
this is the first time i actually noticed adult Waver in Alex's army o,o it is HIM right?
That's Eumenes, not Waver.
@@motokoaoyama3299 oh i see. aw thats a pity though :/
well Gilgamesh is realy have HOLY GRAIL, just Watch Fate/Grand Order Babylon, also Fate/Grand Order : Time Tample Solomon. wel of course after you watch Fate/Stay Night (UBW and HF)
Funny enough, in Fate GO they kinda show that Gilgamesh and Iskandar's (and technically Ozymandias) way of rulling is better than Artoria's
Nah dude, Gilgamesh way of ruling is indeed one of the best king in the series. But Iskandar way is not any better compared to Artoria. I would even said Artoria way of ruling still better than Iskandar.
And no, Gilgamesh way of ruling is not the same as Iskandar way of ruling. Even Gilgamesh himself said Iskandar is as much of a fool as Artoria.
Idk bout that last part, when you look at Caster Gilgamesh's noble phantasm is very similar in concept to Iskandar's, a materialization of his people fighting alongside him by the way of Melammu Dingir
@@venom890 Caster Gilgamesh is also similar to Artoria, ironically enough in the sense that he puts his people before his own health. He literally overworked himself to death, trying to protect his kingdom and people
That's literally not true at all? What the hell have you been reading. Fate go goes out of its way to say that arturia is not only valid but is one of the best kings in history. And gil eventually becomes her type of king
good thing weebs and ads are giving money... if it was basic knowledge of history you'd be living in the streets...
Gilgamesh, Iskandar and King Altria (Female version of king arthur) are still powerful in the game even if new servants are getting added
True but Saber has the most updated skillset for FGO standards. Sucks that they abandoned Gilgamesh after giving him an animation overhaul and still on its vanilla skillset.
Who's Altria all i know is Artoria
@@KikolitsGaming If you really don't know, Altria is the "correct / first" name from Japan or type moon
The problem is Altria can be translate as Arthoria from hiragana / katakana to abc
That's why Merlin in Fate / Babylon call Altria and in Fate / Extella
Even in Aniplex, it's Altria you can check on youtube Aniplex USA which basically FGO
Basically, altria is from creator, artoria from "false" translator (but fans already use it for too long)
@@kiddo7765 i know what it means i just like to say it
@@kiddo7765 funfact artoria is real surname in ancient rome, and It is hypothesized that King Arthur was based on a Roman, named Lucius Artorius Castus.
honestly this is the first time ive seen someone actually understands what gilgamesh is saying here
yes gilgamesh quite literally had EVERY TREASURE in his treasury when he was alive
and everything after his death is either a cheap copy or taken from his treasury either way it traces back to him so it belongs to him
What I find really compelling about the discussion is that Sabers and Iskandars ideals pretty much have the opposite effect of what they claim, and in that way, Iskandars way of leading is somewhat better than Artoria.
See what Artoria admits is that she wants to shoulder everything alone, keep any hardship from her people, protect her people on her own, she thinks it's her responsability to do everything alone. And while that does create a Utopia for her people, it's also extremely shortsighted. People say that Camelot falling was unavoidable, and they are right but in a different way than they think. She's basically an overprotective parent. But that leads to her people relying on her. They were dependant on her because with her shouldering everything, they never learned anything. The end of Camelot was unavoidable because Arthur was still human, humans die, and the country was build in a way that if Artoria wasn't around anymore, there was nothing holding it together. It was a Utopia, but one that was destined to fall as soon as the king did, because she was the only one holding the entire country together.
On the flipside, Iskandars way of leading was to inspire people, drive them to be better. Yes, it was definitely much harder living under Iskandar, but his people learned to strive to be like him. That way his people would become strong and independant. Once he died, there would be enough strong people left to take over.
So ironically, King Arthur thinking that a king had to live for their people created a country that lived for their king. As soon as their king fell, the country would inevitably follow, while Iskandar thinking that the people live for their king, created a country that would outlast him, where everyone could take care of themselves.
The best ep in the whole series.
Rider is a facist tyrant driven by greed and selfishness. Somehow the author managed to make him so charismatic that half of the audience really doesn't understand what they're cheering for and what his wish coming true would mean for humanity. Awesomely written character.