What Makes A Human? Exploring 'The Measure of a Man'
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- Опубліковано 26 гру 2024
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The Target Audience are watching Star Trek: The Next Generation for the first time! Today we discuss season 2 episode 9 - The Measure of a Man
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Episodes like this are why Star Trek has had a profound impact on my life. Moral questions about sentience, theoretical or not are important questions and asking them is what seperates us from our hunter/gatherer ancestors.
A shoutout to Jonathan Frakes for one of the best pieces of non-verbal acting in the series. His face when he's searching Data's schematics for something to build his case with is amazing. One moment he's grinning with satisfaction as he realizes he just found something that might win his argument, but then the smile fades into a subtly devastated expression as he remembers exactly what winning his argument will mean.
Guinan’s scene is less about handing Picard more arguments. It was about showing the repercussions the outcome could have.
Guinan looks at the big picture. It’s natural since her species is long lived
Exactly. Picard is so hyper focused and worried about Data specifically that it takes his conversation with Guinan to realize what’s actually at stake.
“It will reach far beyond this courtroom and this *one* android”
Yep, she was planting the seed in Picard's head to look at the court case from another side, which in this case, wasn't so much about Data himself, but the millions that follow and how they are treated, which has all the hallmarks of slavery.
These are the kind of episodes I love the most because it makes us think and it relates so much to things that happen in real life.
“You can’t prove he’s *not* sentient” to me has a lot of parallels to the disability rights concept of presuming competence, and I think is defensible for the same reasons. The consequences of assuming someone isn’t sentient and being *wrong* are unconscionable; therefore, it’s an assumption you should never make without absolute proof.
@@CowabungaWo101That little glint in Picard's eye in the final court scene after Maddox says "...construct more." Picard: "How many more?"
Picard is like "I'm coming for you"
Also one of my favorite episodes. The Data and Riker scene at the end might be the best of the series in my view. But it seemed a little odd that Data could choose to join Star Fleet, but then not be allowed to resign.
Patrick Stewart is classically trained and an experienced Shakespeare stage theater actor... so casting him as a sci-fi TV character is an unusual choice, and Steward himself was somewhat dubious about it at first. In some ways, TV is out of his comfort zone... and in other ways, his raw acting ability is gross overkill for the part.
But that passionate speech concluding the court drama... that's really the first time in TNG that the writers have given Patrick the opportunity to go full ham and dig deep into his theatrical training with great dialog, and the result is the first example of what the fans quickly dubbed "the Picard Speech". After this point, the writers realized they laid a golden egg & tapped into something really special, so they step up Picard's dialog to make better use of his skill, and they start sprinkling in more moments for him to drop these sorts of epic bombshell speeches several times per season... and the speeches keep getting better & better, and Patrick Stewart keeps delivering them with memorable perfection.
You may notice that this is the point where there's a subtle shift in both quantity & quality of Picard's lines and scenes, and it'll keep getting better as the writers refine their formula and start applying similar techniques to the other actors too.
I AM that teacher!😂. I teach Middle School science and one of the things we talk about is what makes something, “alive.” I showed this episode and I got a real mixed reaction. Most kids just said, “no, he’s just a computer, he’s not alive.” But, there’s always a pocket of students who have that moment of, “ummmmmmm……yeah, it’s not that simple. He has wants/desires, friends, and some kind of consciousness.”
No, there’s no “action” so it goes over most heads of kids, but for those who get it, I can see it made a difference.
Keep it up teacher! If you can get a PG edit of Blade Runner, show that to them too. Parents permission of course. LOL.
It's always a tricky one in what defines being alive, many will say it's things that are living, can grow and change, so biological, but personally, I think goes further than that, and it's something we are going to have to define as A.I. becomes more advanced, many probably won't want to accept it can be alive simply because it's different, but I think we are going to get to a point of advancement with A.I. that it's going to be alive in all the areas that matter, and it's going to be interesting to see how humans come to term with that, and with how quickly A.I. is developing, it could happen sooner than expected.
Either way, humans are very emotional creatures, as A.I. and robotics becomes more advanced, where we can interact with them, they show emotions, feelings at a wide range of levels like humans do, that's going to blur the lines on how we define what's alive, in other words, what we saw in this episode, we could be quickly heading in the same direction of having to find ways of defining A.I. and robotic rights, which might be very important for them to not turn against us.
I think if this episode is the first one you see - and I guess that's how it is nowadays for most of the children - many people would react the same way. Data grows to your heart over all the episodes before. He becomes a likable figure an you start to care for him. I'm not sure if I would have gotten the point at young age. It's nice to see that this episode makes some of your students think.
I'm amazed and saddened that most students say he's a machine.
Likely to become very relevant in the coming years!
I've lost count of how many times I've seen this episode over the years, but it's always gets me. It is one more f my favorites to see other people react to, you know they will "get" the series if they get this one.
This episode was written by a former attorney (Melinda Snodgrass) as a spec script. She wrote several more episodes and became the series' story editor. There's apparently an extended version of the episode with 13 more minutes. This is definitely one of the best episodes of anything Star Trek. It reflects Star Trek at its best because the story works on so many levels. First, it's an interesting exploration of what it's explicitly about: artificial intelligence. Second, it's a great metaphor for exploring themes like life, consciousness, and individuality. And, third, it highlights a character who, like Spock, really connected with neuro-diverse people. How amazing is it that Star Trek created a character that the other characters and the audience loved BECAUSE he thought differently than other people, not despite that fact. Oh, and last thought, Data saving personal items is such a human thing to do. We all keep these kinds things as some kind of physical proof that we exist and that our lives matter.
At 2:40: I can see this being shown in a college class. THAT'S EXACTLY what a professor friend of mine does! She does this one, one more upcoming TNG and one from DS9.
This is Picard in his element. Some of the best episodes in the series for me is when Picard is being a diplomat and just using his intellect to get through a problem.
I liked when Data checked Picard when they were in his ready room and Picard had no answer to Data's questions,so he just dismisses him. And never looks at Data either.
@@kerry-j4mWhat I really like about that is how quickly Picard makes the adjustment on his thinking and goes all in defending Data.
There are a lot of people that won't change and in some ways, it takes courage to admit you got something wrong and to change accordingly, it's what I like about Picard, he's not a know-it-all kind of person and will change if others make a point, just like Data did, we could do with more people like that in this political polarised world we are getting in.
The shocker will come when they realize this wasn't even Picard's greatest courtroom moment.
"Pursuant, to paragraph one thousand
, two hundred and ninety, I formally
request third party arbitration of our dispute."
(not exactly a courtroom moment, but inspiring words nonetheless) There are times, sir, when men of good conscience cannot blindly follow orders.@@bcn1gh7h4wk
"Those words were first uttered by Judge Aaron Satti..." "The council will refrain from making their opponent disappear."
@@bcn1gh7h4wk That wasn't in a courtoom...
"With the first link, the chain is forged..." LET'S GO!
Knew you'd like this one! Wait until Data gets a pet cat!
Something I'm not sure if they intended, but Philipa had to prosecute Picard as her job and Picard thought she enjoyed it - and that is the exact situation that Riker is put in. It would have been cool to see Riker wrestling with it, and Picard telling him it's ok, saying something like, "If you are someone of integrity and agree to something out of duty, you MUST give it your sincere best, and not feel bad about that" - and then realizing that the same applies to Phillipa.
I think we saw a bit of that when Riker first discovers Data's off switch. Then his grin turns to a grimace.
That's a unique perspective that didn't come to me so far. That's valuable. Thanks.
One of the best of the series. The first real step into genius. There had been good episode before this, but this is the first truly exceptional episode.
So many firsts in this episode: Picard's speech defending Data, as your Patreon remarked, the arrival of what we would come to know as Jean-Luc Picard; the recurring poker game; deep dive into Data that will come full circle before the series is completed; so many elements that would become core-TNG in this episode!
Congratulations guys. You made it to a milestone episode. After you get through everything Trek, you'll never forget this one. Sure, there have been lots of great episodes so far, but this one is what I consider leveling up. Thanks for the Patreon 1.00 tier, I'm signed up. Glad you liked this one so much because it is the heart of what Trek is all about. ✌️
If you guys love court room stuff you also have to watch the series Boston Legal with James Spader and Captain Kirk himself, William Shatner in a role as a legendary lawyer which resulted two Emmys for him, an achievement he was not able to pull off with Star Trek.
He makes the most of his comedic skills in that !
Melinda Snodgrass is 72 years old and probably doesn’t want to come out of retirement to write more TV. But she did write a line of scifi books people can check out.
With the guys' knowledge of TOS minutae, was a little disappointed they didn't catch the Daystrom Institute reference during Maddox's swearing in.
Before TNG, Melissa Snodgrass wrote a good TOS novel called "Tears of the Singers," which is centered around Uhura. It's really good. At least I thought when I read it nearly 40 years ago.
In addition to being an actor Amanda McBroom is a songwriter. She wrote the song “The Rose“ which was made famous by Bette Midler.
I've been looking forward to you getting to this one. It's in my top 20 of all Star Trek episodes. Of episodes you've seen so far, the only one i personally like more is Mirror Mirror. I love how you have started cheering when you spot O'Brien in the episodes.
we watched this in my grade 11 philosophy class so you're right on
Great discussion, gentlemen. This is in my top 10 favorite episodes in all of Trek. I'm glad you guys liked it.
I like the commercials at the beginning. That guy's voiceover takes me back to being a kid. He was everywhere in those days.
Data is showing elements of sentimentality and even pride with the items he selected to keep. This is a phenomenally written episode (best of TNG to this point?), and let's just say, this show is just getting started. This is going to be a hell of a ride!
An episode that can be used to teach in a class is a high and deserved compliment.
One of the best episodes of the whole fucking franchise. Forget the series or season.
I like the ‘you can’t prove’ reference back to 12 Angry Men.
That bottle of fireball the real trooper.
He goes through a bottle an episode
@@TheFizzsterIf that's not alcoholism, I don't know what is
@@blindavocado1100By previous generation standards, may be not. I read an autobiography of WWII Japanese naval officer who, at a low point wrote he was drinking a gallon of sake a night in order to sleep. He went on to say "I was concerned I was becoming an alcoholic."
The poker table becomes a big theme throughout TNG.
Despite what most people believe, emotion isn't necessary for compassion; in fact, many times it gets in the way of it.
Reminds me of a quote from the BBC series Sherlock: "Will caring about them help save them?" "...No." "Good, then I'll continue to not make that mistake."
14:53 I have noticed, on this rewatch of the series, there are MANY examples of people just entering quarters that they should not be doing. Maybe the "doorbell" hadn't been properly introduced/cemented yet.
There's usually a chime from the door letting the occupant know there's someone at their door,then the occupant says-ENTER. But,it's not usually consistent.
The person with the "dissenting" opinion is ignorant an important part of the justice system... The burden of proof. You don't have to PROVE you're innocent; they have to PROVE you're guilty. So her ruling that she doesn't know fits perfectly.
You guys should check out the extra features for this episode on the blu ray, there's a commentary w/ the writer, and a work print of the episode! Thanks for the video!
Loved your reaction to the ep and your discussion. I’m glad you had an emotional reaction because I did and I still get tears in my eyes now.
26:05 I dunno. I taught my cat how to open the basement door so he could get to his food. I showed him once and he never forgot.
One thing people did not understand back then like most of us do now is the condition of people who are "on the spectrum." Some of them have difficulties in life because they have difficulties with reading other people. They may not be able to understand jokes, recognize what facial expressions mean, or passive aggressiveness, etc. I have a nephew who has this problem and it has caused him a lot of grief. It has made it difficult for him in work and social situations. In this sense, Data is not so different. And like Data, my nephew has spent a lot of time trying to develop this aspect of himself.
I feel we skipped over something here that is accepted almost implicitly: that starfleet officers are of such integrity that they can be counted on to be impartial when their duty requires it of them. Even Bruce Maddox accepts this, not only from Riker but also from Louvois. This is definitely something noteworthy in this era of TNG.
That's something I found strange, Maddox easily accepting the case to be judged by Louvois and Riker being the prosecutor. I'm not sure if it was intentional like you said, it seems more like something that passed unnoticed.
I always say that early TNG was good at coming up with interesting concepts but they hadn't figured out how t explore those concepts. However, this episode begins to change that and the starts t get real good.
One of the best episodes of the entire series. Because of Brent Spiner, most Data-centric episodes are top tier.
Probably the best episode until "In the Pale Moonlight" in DS9
Melinda M Snodgras is one of the best tng writers and worked with George RR Martin on the Wild Cards series of mosaic novels.
In the eighties, they and several other writers, played a rpg named Superworld.
In a fit of needing a steady income, Martin and his gaming group wrote their characters into short stories. Martin linked them into a common narrative, and a fantastic series of a gritty, dark superhero world was created.
There are now over 24 novels, several comic book series, and several sourcebooks for two different role-playing game systems.
Snodgrass, later incorporates aspects of one of her Wild Cards characters into an episode of TNG.
I will hold off till that episode airs.
This whole thing is just awesome 😀
Cool
Snarky Lore jump scare was great!
This is the episode I use to introduce people to the show. For me (and a lot of folks) it's top tier TNG and it's a lot more fun to watch then Encounter at Farpoint.
When i was in college @Target Audience, i used this epi of TNG and the upcoming epi in season 5 i think it is The Offspring; very similar themes and stuff happening in my philosophy class paper.
You guys are right there is more on the table to be said about this topic. TNG actually addresses the more that's on the table. You'll see.
Why?
If you guys love court shows (and humour) you might like Boston Legal... Even has Captain Kirk!
"Denny Crane!" (walks through frame, lol)
The Data playing poker is to show that he can be naive and has difficulty thinking emotionally. (Poker is about reading emotions.)
Spock is a master 3-D Chess player, but Kirk beats him regularly because Spock expects Kirk to play logically and has difficulty thinking illogically
It's subtle, but it's important... Data having a limitation by human standards doesn't make him any less sentient than Spock
You're going to love the spin off Star Trek: Alien Law.
Law & Order: TNG
I have been waiting patiently/impatiently since you started TNG ( and especially season 2) for this episode. Despite the hate season 2 gets sometimes, i would argue the season actually has several great episodes. But this is my absolute favorite of season 2 (and probably in my top 10 of the whole series). I got to watch most of your reaction, before it was taken down, and i loved seeing you respond to this story.
30:14 A lot of the oddball stuff that was written in TOS is forgotten or ignored going forward. Especially the "god-like" species, are never revisited.
I think this is bc godlike being stories make for interesting space (hur-hur) to explore various themes and story ideas, but frequent use of them tend not to hold up to scrutiny or cause “in universe” problems.
Why didn’t that omnipotent being we befriended several episodes ago help us when we were all about to die? Why didn’t it cure the an epidemic in this other planet? That sort of thing.
Man, that TV promo is really struggling with this one. This is a stellar episode, but It's not really one that sounds all that exciting on paper. "Wow, kids, look at all the ethnical conundrums we will face next time; don't miss it!"😂
Forcing Riker to be the prosecution is such a deceptively simple but effective storytelling device. He's really great as the antagonist, and the button of the episode with him having to be reassured by Data is very nice.
Also, Josh, you are right; it is really the opposite of the typical "robot gains sentience" plot, which I never noticed. I think it adds to the poignancy of the episode, like Data already gets treated like a regular person by the crew, but because his rights aren't secured by law, he has to fight for them or risk not only his own wellbeing but the potential wellbeing of other androids build in his image as well.
If you have the bluray set of TNG season 2, there is a longer version of this episode included as an extra feature. Definitely worth checking out. 😊
This episode was reviewed by "legal eagle" another youtuber and youncoukd tell he loved it AND also picked it apart based on what a real lawyer would do or say.
There are a couple obvious flaws but normal ones for tv court episodes. Surely Luvois/Starfleet have an extreme conflict of interest. A non starfleet court should decide this.
A huge one is that Picard's argument mostly skips the issue. That is, he goes on about the consequences of the ruling but that's irrelevant if Data isn't sentient.
41:31 also... TOS is WAY MORE RELIGIOUS than even the question of a soul is. from literally asking if things are proper " in the eyes of God" I get that people lose that fact because starfleet presents itself as all inclusive, and it is, but all inclusive doesn't equal anti religious or atheist, it just points out when religious equals oppressive.
I had forgotten that the JAG had prosecuted Picard in the inquiry about losing the Stargazer. Something I have ALWAYS wanted to know more about. Think about it... A veteran Starfleet Captain loses a starship. I must assume this is a black mark regardless of the outcome clearing Picard. And somehow this wasn't held against him and he was given the command of the Galaxy Class Flagship of the Federation.
There's GOTTA be a story there worth exploring.
Love this episode. Well crafted, but it's what Stewart and Spiner do with the material that makes it sing. Yeah, this is when we see the "heart" of Picard. A man of morals who will fight for what he sees as the moral imperative as long as it is within his power.
16:45 this sounds very much like the premise of HBO's Westworld
Turning a human being "off" is relatively easy, the real trick is turning a human back "on" again.
One of the odd things here is why build a setient android? Presumably you are doing it for some practical purpose like doing some kind of work that would hazardous for a human to do. Soong is a special case, because he just wanted to be the person to figure out how.
I rolled my eyes when Riker delivered that Pinocchio line back when I first saw it in the 80s. And like the channel Reverse Angle pointed out it doesn't really prove anything because everyone has a shutoff - getting smacked in the head with a club for example 😛
I suggest you react to “12 Angry Men” just for the heck of it. It is a spellbinding picture well made with a stellar cast.
they already did
I love the episode. I have to say though that one of the best arguments in the whole episode comes from Bruce Maddox: he says something along the lines that we perceive Data as human-like because he looks like a human, but that if he was a box on wheels he would not be facing any resistance. Quite aside from Data's actual sentience compared to that of entities like the ship's computer, I think this is undeniably true: we definitely see him as human-like because he looks human, and he would be a much less sympathetic character (and we would be much less ready to immediately side with him) if he had a different shape.
I don’t know about that. Take for instance the Robot from Lost In Space. By the middle of the run most people were pretty attentive and saw it as a person.
Great reaction guys by the way, just in case you care what they use is confederation credits can be converted into other currencies for the plants or civilizations, because the federation spans over 1000 planets across the galaxy and that is the universal currency in federation but planets are the Federation use other currency like gold press, Latin by the Freni, other things and things you have to buy when you’re out of the federation like that dilithium crystals, you can’t run your ship with that crystals And food and drink you know when you’re on your ship you get it replicated but when you’re on the planet or you’re at a hotel, you have to use their replicator and use their power you have to pay for it pay for your meal pay for your room when you on vacation from Starfleet off the ship and spend money And I mean credits or whatever they use convert from credits to whatever they use that’s why they collect it in poker games a lot because there is short leave off the ship every offers entitled shortly times themselves vacation and once you’re retired from your own ship to the galaxy you we need to make repairs by replacement parts need to go pay for stuff when you retire and you pay for the most are replicator a place to live a ship and weapons mostly can do weapons see it to buy those separately. You can make clothes with replicator and food. We need to buy a replicator that weapons in a ship The Federation without money or the Federation pays their officers so they go to the plants and enjoy themselves. Thanks for the fun until next time. I hope I didn’t bore you by the way officially I have the rank of Fleet admiral and as a laugh official fan club says that I’m paid 500,000 credits a year And if the federation becomes real I get that much money it’s it’s like credits so like they called bitcoin now that’s what I said when they started saying bitcoin, I said well if you can have bitcoin digital I want the credits to be real too. Thanks for the fun until next time.
I agree that a lot of what makes this really work is it's over a season into the show and we know and care about the characters.
There's another Trek show that does something (very roughly) analogous but a few episodes into the first season. There it feels more like homework.
There are a lot of animals who have proven to be self-aware (for example crows, dolphins and primates) and even if an animal doesn't have an abstract concept of "self", that doesn't mean they don't have conciousness. But how you'd prove anyone's conciousness or lack thereof, that's one of the big questions we'll probably never know the answer to.
Agreed. It's weird to me that people assume there just must be something that makes humans fundamentally "different" from animals. Through the centuries we just keep finding more things we have in common like tool use, teaching or theory of mind. The fact is, humanity is just surrounded by blurry lines.
They seem to be some flavor of religious even joking about evolution. They dont really think about stuff
You just watched one of only two episodes from Season 2 that make the overall Top 10 of the whole series. It is very little of a spoiler to point out that I ranked this episode #5 overall (#1 for Season 2). This is simply outstanding writing and characterization/acting. And yet, there are 4 episodes (2 of them in Season 3) that are even better. There is, by the way, one more Season 2 episode yet to appear in the overall Top 10 (it's at #8), but I won't yet spoil its title. Great reaction!
I always thought that they should probably have figured this out before they let him into starfleet academy. It's a bit weird that they let him command the enterprise and don't even know if he is even conscious.
I guess they think of him like the autopilot in the movie Airplane! Lol😛
@@m.e.3862Did Tasha have to inflate him?
@@m.e.3862lol
Is Data a few steps above the Enterprise computer? That computer was able to create the Moriarty program which arguably is sentient, and since Moriarty exists on the computer's hardware, it could be considered the computer itself.
CBS/Paramount blocked the original reaction video...
Yes, it’s being disputed
What a bunch of snowflakes! ❄️
Glad I saw it first. Good luck on dispute
@@targetaudience Are you guys going to react to the 1984 version of Dune with Patrick Stewart also featuring Sting from the police that would be interesting. I heard it was a box office flop. I saw it but I don’t recall if I liked it but it was interesting Patrick Stewart apparently didn’t know who was at the time didn’t know he was a musician, and when he told him he was in the police, he thought he actually played with the police not the band but actual policeman and he asked them how he walked around with that big heavy instrument and he said electric base not standup something like that
@@targetaudience are you going to re release it with some editing?
Courtroom episodes are consistently the best episodes of Trek
Recommend 12 Angry Men 1957. A panel of Jurors debate the evidence in a Murder Trial.
They have seen and commented on it.🙂Great film
I go with what Josh said there: To me, its just all Star Trek. With times changing, the way tv is made changing, new creatives bringing new ideas, ofcorse Trek is changing too, staying fresh. But to me, still today, the core elements they always took care to keep, witch is a testament i guess to Rodenberrys original idea. To me one strength of Trek is the diversity in the storys it is able to tell, having a silly comedy followed by a courtroom drama and then maybe come up with a monster of the week. The same goes with different tonalitys in the various shows, movies or even seasons, all adding something to Trek as a whole. Therefore, first two seasons TNG i find very interresting too, despite the stinkers that come with it. Rodenberry, after 15 jears beeing told hes a kind of messias, wanted at least fill the role, maybe started to belief it himself. So we see a lot he would have liked already in TOS but was stopped back then. The show finding itself and Gene, i guess, beeing a pain in the ass of lots of people working there and lets not forget the strike, make this two seasons a bumpy ride. But while it sure gets more polished later, not only with TNG but all the Berman Trek (who isnt much better a writer then Roddenberry imho), that can also be a bit boring in times and there are times when i think you feel the franchise is kind of tired. This sure not goes for the first two seasons of TNG right..?!
I agree that all the arguments showing that, yep, Data sure is a machine, without addressing his sentience at all, are frustrating in their complete and utter irrelevance. 😂
R2D2 is my favorite Star Wars character so... Loved this episode.
So a little “back story” into picards resentment of Philipa…..
They were friends VERY CLOSE FRIENDS prior to Picard becoming captain of the stargazer (it should be important to point out that Picard was 2nd officer and was promoted directly to captain….in B cannon books anyway) but when Picard lost the ship in battle it triggers an automatic court martial….. considered a mere formality with a positive outcome certain Philipa decided to have some fun with Picard, and show off her prowess as a litigator at the expense of Picard…… and there may have been damaged caused by it…. As it was 8 years before he took permanent command of another ship
Picard was promoted directly from 2nd officer to captain? That seems to conflict with "Encounter at Farpoint" where Riker states that Picard was also once a 1st officer.
@@Raja1938 it IS b Canon and traditional rules say it should be discarded….
In the Book picard is second officer of the stargazer but the captain of the ship doesnt much like his first officer so he leave him (first officer) on the ship and confides in picard more and more often, even to the point he confides in Picard he is considering recommending a transfer and promotion
At that moment there is a two phase incident that between captain and first officer kills one and incapacitates the other ….
But regardless of the more detailed B canon or the vague A canon….. the primary point of my comment was to give a better detail about the court martial of picard…
Don’t know if anyone else mentioned, but I believe the courtroom is the Enterprise battle bridge set.
Lore looking through the window with the dramatic music, lol!
I noticed in the other video that during Riker's prosecution, YOU two were calling Data "it"
The word you're looking for is "transcends".
I think the fact that he also keeps his medals and the gifts he's been given points to there being something else as well. Especially his medals, besides the fact that he kept them. I fairly certain that most if not all would require him to above and beyond the call of duty. Not something you would get from a tricorder for example.
I think they were trying to portray Riker not as someone doing their best, but as someone trying to look like they're doing their best. And they (and he!) succeded.
The scene where he is studying and trying to figure out how to present was pretty good. He seems happy with himself for finding a strategy and then realizes what it means for his friend.
Regarding sentience.....Do emotions demonstrate it? I have seen many emotions in dogs (joy, anxiety, anticipation, fear, excitement, anger, loneliness, love). Communication is not a problem. There is clearly intelligence there as well. Lack of both complex verbal communication ability and thumbs seem to be the major setbacks. Are dogs sentient? Most would say no, and I would ask "Why?".
Your analysis on what Data is missing, referring to social queues, humor or understanding of emotions
He's basically programmed to have a high functioning form of Autism or other condition found in organic beings
When Data forgave Riker, and said
Your actions injured you and saved me...
He should have continued
However, I will be charging you with assault for hitting my off switch while I was on the witness stand
Why didn't Data ask why he had an off switch like how all biological creatures don't? That would have convinced everyone in the room, and would also remove 20 minutes from the episode! 😂
@@ShamrockParticle if you've ever watched boxing...
Humans definitely do have an "off switch"...
Mike Tyson found it several times in the ring
@@tnolddawg Last time I got operated on, that "turn me off and later turn me on again" thing worked pretty well...
Is is possible you can edit it down or water mark the video to get cbs to be ok with it some times that has worked for other reaction broadcasters
They have dealings with enough alien species that personhood and humanity should not be conflated in their century. The news of the sentient silicon-based lifeform the Horta from TOS episode "The Devil in the Dark" had to have made it into the schoolbooks. They are aware of life that isn't even embodied at all, for goodness sake. As partially addressed, it's unbelievable that the issue of Data's personhood wasn't previously settled at any of the following points: Starfleet Academy admission/graduation; receipt of commendations; and rank promotions up to the point where he is the 2nd officer of Starfleet's flagship. (Speaking of the ship, perhaps its rights *are* being trampled upon....)
It's a very contrived premise. Also the Enterprise is a huge ship and they don't have JAG lawyers on it? And even if not, the computer itself has been shown to have enough power to create a rival to Data on the holodeck. They should've used Moriarty as prosecutor lol😛
There is money TNG, as well as DS9. The clearest example occurs later at the ship commissary. Just because people don't have to worry about necessities does not mean money is not a thing. It's just not as big a deal.
Hi Guys! I can't believe you never mentioned the first Star Trek movie when the Voyager probe was helped to complete its mission by the Machine Planet .
It seems to me that this subject has been partially covered by Star Trek before all those years ago!😮
The subject of computer/android conscious self-awareness was covered in various ways many times in Star Trek TOS even before TMP, for example, in the episodes "What Are Little Girls Made Of?", "The Return of the Archons," "The Changeling," "The Apple," "I, Mudd," "The Ultimate Computer," and "Requiem for Methuselah."
Interestingly, "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" also explored the idea of the humanoid creators of a population of androids having enslaved the androids who became consciously self-aware, which frightened their creators into trying to shut the androids down, to which the androids responded by killing their creators in self-defense. When Data was revived after Riker shut him down, the participants in the courtroom were fortunate that Data did not decide to kill them all in self-defense. 😉
"What Are Little Girls Made Of?" also explored the idea of the androids infiltrating humanoid society and then taking over to protect humanoids from their own foibles, essentially enslaving the humanoids. This idea is revisited in the episode "I, Mudd" when the androids rebel against Harry Mudd.
Also, the subject of computer conscious self-awareness was explored in TNG prior to this episode in the episode "Elementary, Dear Data" by the computer's creation of the consciously self-aware hologram Moriarty.
It is strange that in Captain Picard 's defense of Data, he does not mention that when the computer was tasked with creating a worthy opponent for Data, it created a consciously self-aware being, thus, indicating that the computer considers Data to be consciously self-aware.
Perhaps Picard did not want to open up the can of worms of Moriarty's being a consciously self-aware being that he had to store in a form of stasis in the computer's memory bank rather than letting Moriarty continue to function, or of what it says about the ship's computer's own status of conscious self-awareness since the computer could create a consciously self-aware subroutine named Moriarty.
Perhaps Picard did not pursue that line of reasoning because it may have boosted his opponents argument that the crew is only anthropomorphizing Data because he looks like a humanoid since Picard accepted the human looking hologram Moriarty's claim of conscious self-awareness, but Picard does not ascribe such conscious self-awareness to the ship's computer which generates Moriarty.
That space station is from the Wrath of Khan
You guys should check out the movie Gattaca movie about genetic engineering and natural birth rights
There's one thing I noticed only after many viewings of this episode, that I still haven't seen brought up anywhere: The parallel between Philippa and Riker, and what it implies about Data.
At the beginning we're repeatedly told about Philippa having prosecuted Picard for the Stargazer incident. He accuses her of actually "enjoying" it, and she vehemently denies that; we're never shown whether that's true or not, but she seems genuine with her rejection of that idea. Later, we see Riker being put into a situation where he _has_ to prosecute a friend and do it _viciously,_ because otherwise his friend will suffer. Notice that Philippa and Picard are directly implied to have been romantically involved in the past - possibly even right before the Stargazer trial took place. The implication here - which is never stated outright - is that Philippa was forced by her position to prosecute a man she loved, and to do so _viciously_ (it's literally her job as JAG).
Now, that leads into a very interesting comparison between Picard and Data. Picard's reaction to Philippa doing her job was to hold a grudge against her, which he expresses several times. It's only when he sees her making a ruling he agrees with that he is willing to let bygones be bygones.
By comparison, Data almost instantly recognizes that Riker had to do what he did - at great pain to himself. He forgives Riker immediately for it. Even though you can just chalk it up to Data being a creature of logic and not getting emotions involved, it's almost as if Data is a _better human_ than Picard. He shows empathy, which Picard failed to do in his own past.
I think this episodes has shades of the infamous US Supreme Court Dred Scott decision in the 1850s. But in TNG they essentially recognised that Data is a Federation citizen with the rights of a citizen.
Consciousness is just another word for a soul. Anima is the irrational part of the human soul which we might call the unconscious or true self. And is where we get the word animate or animated. Spirit as a word came from the word for breath, and became an idea that living things have a living breath within them.
I wanted to also comment on the point that you brought up that Data just resigned from Starfleet right off the bat without giving it much thought. In my own head canon, I believe it’s because since Data is technically a computer, it was a binary reaction. In this situation, there are only two choices: resign from Starfleet, or stay in Starfleet. Based on the variables that were available, Data drew the conclusion to resign from Starfleet.
I know it’s similar to the Binars from season 1, but as I said, just my own head cannon.
Data isn't human. Just because he doesn't have HUMAN emotions, doesn't mean he doesn't have emotions appropriate to what he is. Spiner does an amazing job of portraying that too. He didn't love Tasha in the same way a man would, he loved her in his own unique way.
He doesn't have emotions. He doesn't get angry or sad or whatever, even if he understands those concepts and tries to act them out, like keeping things for 'sentimental value'.
It's possible that he has emotions on a level he doesn't even realize since this isn't the only example. However, it could simply be that some of the writers just can't process the concepts they are trying to convey. I chose to believe that they were writing the characters at a deeper level that just doesn't happen these days
my brother is very autistic and never showed empathy or love to me growing up. it used to make me cry when id say "i love you" and he would say "okay." and hated hugs. hated them.
to comfort my younger self, my mother once told me "he doesnt tell you he loves you, but he does. love for him is more about familiarity."
always felt data adjacent to me , helps me process this episode. and i am grateful for brent spiner for helping me understand my brother when i was too young to process things at a higher level of intellect.
That's how I interpret the character too. Data has some kind of unique android experience that's equivalent to some emotions. He clearly can be fascinated, confused, relaxed, alert, thoughtful and grateful. So far, he just doesn't seem to have an equivalent for certain human emotions like anger, humor or hate. Sometimes he definitely just mimics emotions for the benefit of those around him, like when he 'laughs' at a joke, but when he's by himself and looks at that hologram of Tasha there's no reason to think he's acting. I'd say he's experiencing his own android version of sadness.
Is it just me or did the reaction of this episode get taken down?
I think Data can feel to a certain degree, but it's hard for him to feel it as deeply as a human. His longing to be human proves that because longing is an emotion.
For fans of good court arguments, find the old series Ally McBeal. Silly show, but intensely good logical and moral arguments delivered on both sides of most cases.
I like this episode a lot and the thing that always gets me is that data was allowed to join starfleet, he graduated from SF academy. Rose through the ranks to reach Lt. Cmdr and yet some ppl in SF want to say he can't because he's property.
Plus I would assume that he would be granted federation citizenship for his service if he didn't have it already, so he would have certain rights under the fed constitution.
You guys are going to love Jellico lol.
The Sisko does not agree with this "no space battles" provision.
The cast & crew loved Denise Crosby. She only left because she'd be working all day only because any scene with Picard, Ryker & Troi required her standing at her station, standing for 14hrs with no lines (& often no shot of her head), she quickly got sick of it. Hence her popping back every so often. - re: It would be different if Data didn't look human, but looked like a box. Well, see Balkes7, the character Orac who is a computer that is a box (and many fans find him to be their favourite character).
44:00 The fact androids aren’t common in Trek is addressed down the line.