Thank you for the point about SPM. That game IS a true sequel to TTYD. The connections between them go even deeper than you mentioned. For example: - TTYD and SPM have the same UI in most places (same menu backgrounds, "glove" text selector, same selection sounds) - TTYD (and the first game for that matter) have all of their partners reappear as photos in Mario's house and as Catch Cards in SPM, and the game files indicate they were planned to make physical appearances as well but were scrapped for unknown reasons -TTYD's action commands reappear as the mechanism behind items in SPM. The same design is used for them and everything. I feel like people really overlook this one -TTYD and SPM use the same environments for recurring areas (Mario's house, Bowser's Castle, etc.) They use the same models, backgrounds, and everything. They are quite literally the same places -TTYD and SPM use the same engine and maps from one game can be loaded in the other via hacks -TTYD and SPM are the only two games in the series with the Pit Of 100 Trials. SPM built on the idea (like a sequel does) by including two Pits with better rewards -There are shared motifs and patterns everywhere, like with both games having a dragon as the first boss (Hooktail and Fracktail) who later has an upgraded version appear in the Pit (Bonetail and Wracktail) -Both games use the same soundfont for their soundtracks, and leitmotifs from TTYD appear in SPM's soundtrack. (For example, Grodus' theme can be heard in the SPM track "In The Darkness") -While this could possibly be included in the "shared patterns" bullet point, I'll make it a separate one because I feel it's notable. Both games' final chapters have the same layout: You fight through a castle of darkness to reach the main villain, and the battle turns out to be a fake final boss fight. The true main villain is then revealed as one of Mario's friend's is possessed to become the true demonic final boss. The end of the world commences. This true final boss is invincible until a supernatural power from the artifacts intercedes and Mario is emboldened. This parallel is so pronounced it's tough to ignore -TTYD and SPM are the only Paper Mario games to be linked forward. Put another way, TTYD is the only game that intentionally foreshadowed its successor. The Toad in Petalburg in TTYD says that "if you like Luigi, you'll love the next [Paper Mario] game." And on and on. I could keep going. The only reason SPM changed the combat from TTYD is because SPM was originally expected to be a Gamecube game. The devs worried that another Paper Mario game on the same system with the same gameplay would be too repetitive, so they changed the combat. However, artistically speaking, they were made with the exact same sensibilities and intentions. TTYD and SPM are like brothers with different hair colors. They're different in a single way, but they have the same DNA. Their similarities go right to the bone. Just because SPM doesn't have the same combat does not mean that it is not a true sequel.
The more I think about it, I can’t help but wonder if it would be possible to make a mod that allows SPM to use some form of the classic TTYD battle system. Instead of having Mario in the party at all times during battle you can switch your lead party member between all four playable characters and your “partner” slot is taken by your currently active Pixl. It would require a LOT of importing enemy data and making new animations, but if they were developed for the same console originally, it might be hypothetically possible...hmm.
Super Paper Mario is like that one kid whose siblings will occasionally ask their parents if he's adopted when he isn't. A bit different, but still ultimately cut from the same cloth.
64 is the original recipe. Important, but can be improved upon. TTYD added stuff to improve the recipe without changing the dish too much. SPM chose to make their own dish using what was learned from the first two but kept some of the similar parts so it felt familiar. Sticker star lost the original recipe and made it's own, but it was foul and bitter. Color splash attempted to improve it by making it look nicer but the core ingredient was rotten and unfixable, Origami King threw out that rotten ingredient and substituted it for something new to make the dish it's own so it didn't fall into the same trap as the two before it. TTYD remake is someone finding the lost recipe and making the dish anew for a new generation to enjoy after many thought it would be lost forever.
More like “y’all objectively made two of the greatest pieces of media to ever exist, but instead of following up in that, ima settle for being a slightly above-average linear 2D platformer with a couple 3D young-child-targeted gimmicks mixed in” Still 100000x better than Sticker star, Color Splash, and Origami King combined tho
gonna be honest. it could be horifyingly detailed closeups or funny cut outs of real people photos for what I'm imagining new donker's in a paper mario style would look like now.
After Mario wonder too let's be real !! Just imagine some baboom, pikcord and all these mobs as paper NPC ! Even talking flowers and poplin it would be so cool !! poplins
The annoying thing about color splash is that it was so close to being a great game. It doesn’t have a super complex story or anything, but it’s not trying to so that doesn’t bother me. It’s easily the funniest Mario game ever made and the game is gorgeous and all the areas are super fun to explore and have something unique about them. The music is also fantastic. The only thing that drags it down is the battle system. The game has some other problems like those chase sequences were if you die it takes you all the way back to the title screen and the toads not having unique designs but those are all annoyances more than anything. I wouldn’t call them massive problems. If color splash was remade and it just ditched the battle system all together and it was just overworld combat like in super and it gave all of the toads unique designs, it would be glorious. I honestly like color splash way more than origami king. There are so many things in origami king that annoy me way more than anything in color splash
Yeah, I really like Color Splash, even more than most who played it, but the battle system does drag it down. I found the fights to be OK, perhaps a little better than Sticker Star, but to me it is leagues above that game overall because I found value in everything else (like you described). Sure, SS had great music and a couple of funny lines, but the stellar writing and exploration/locales of CS won me over. I agree that its issues unrelated to the combat are annoyances rather than major problems.
I found sticker star’s system better than Color splash’s because the Color splash one IS SO LONG. There’s so many inputs and it still has all the cards and stuff. At least sticker stat just lets you get straight to the attack. But stickers still suck.
@@bigdealbro3439but in CS, the fights actually *mean* something. Winning a fight gives you hammer points, which makes your first strikes stronger, allowing you to skip fights later down the line, and it also improves the amount of paint your hammer holds, so you don’t have to refill it as much. That definitely is enough for me to push CS way above both SS and OK due to the fact that there’s a resource that’s exclusive to battling again.
@@bracken8782 Ok maybe its better than Sticker Star, but not Origami King. The most efficient way to win coins is through battling and bosses, and coins are CRUCIAL in that game. The most efficient way to fill up your confetti bag is also battling, which is also CRUCIAL. If you dont need any of those you could argue its useless, especially in the last few areas where theres no shops and very little holes. But the best thing about the battle system is that the weapons arent consumerable, besides the more powerful ones and items which you get in shops, so you always have boots and hammer, plus some extras that wear off a bit with each use, not straight away. You dont have to look for a specific weapon because theres no cards or stickers. Definitely the best system of the three games.
@@bigdealbro3439 and yet the actual process of fighting is an absolute chore. Sorry, but i’d happily take the card system of color splash over the stupid board system from Origami King. It only ever worked on bosses, and even then it didn’t work well.
What makes the whole character restriction thing even more confusing is that if it really was established during Sticker Star's development, then why didn't it effect Drem Team in any way? That game came out a year later and still kept the same originality and charm of the previous Mario & Luigi games without any limitations. Even the changes made in the remakes are relatively minor, just some enemy designs having a more uniform look. It's not like they say straight up replaced Popple with Nabbit or something. The only M&L to abide the same limitations as Paper Mario happens to be the crossover with that series. It just feels like there's a strange double standard with those rules in regard to Paper Mario specifically.
It really is Paper Mario specifically. Even the BIS remake created new villains for the side story, Mario&Luigi would have *never* failed to deliver new characters and species unless there was a mandate against it that came into effect due to their collaboration with the Paper Mario brand.
The whole interview that said they can’t make any new characters/different designs never really made sense to me since that’s exactly what other mario games don’t do. Take Odyssey for example, it introduced so many new characters/races to the series
I think Nintendo just holds their second-party studios to stricter standards than their in-house/first-party studios. Super's crazyness on their all-new mass-market console freaked them out, so they made Intelligent cool it down for the fiture games until now, but the in-house team is trusted and more curated, so they can do as they please.
@@speedslider3913 I can see that, as even playing through Mario VS Donkey Kong there is a feeling that the presentation is a bit generic. You could even say the same as to what happened wit the sports games for the Wii U era as well.
I've been a Paper Mario fan ever since I was 6 and as much as I adore this series, I've grown tired of arguing about it. I was really excited when TOK was announced and it was disheartening to see so much debate sparked over it just like Color Splash. I'm not saying we can't have critical discussions about the direction the series went in, as you said, but it's frustrating seeing both sides constantly at each other's throats. TTYD is one of my favorite games of all time, and it hurts to see fans of that game bash the new games and their fans, especially when it causes many to hate TTYD out of spite. I hope the remake finally breaks this cycle and this is a game many on both sides can enjoy, or at least respect the different opinions about. Thanks for this video, I really like the analogy you put together and will keep it in mind when discussing this series and the discourse surrounding it with friends.
I was a diehard TOK fan until the remake, never really wanted to play the first three (I loved SPM's story but could never get myself to play it fully). After the remake I respect both sides equally now after finishing TTYD. TOK is so unfairly compared to TTYD after playing both, TOK is such a unique and fun game imo and people just think it's another slop paper mario game. It makes me really sad
@@cathode_mothray TOK is a really amazing game on its own, even Color Splash is good when you don't compare it to the others, it's just unfortunate they share a series with a game as beloved as TTYD yet are so different from it. I think a lot of people never gave TOK a chance because they went into it with a mindset of "how can I compare this to the first two games" without seeing the many ways TOK defines itself as a unique entry in the series. Also, I'm glad you gave the remake a chance, it makes me happy seeing new fans and those who enjoy the modern games give it a try
i honestly loved SPM chapter 7 as a story, and i wish a game centered around Luvbi, Grambi, Jaydes, and Bonechill existed, as a game taking place after SPM. i just hate how they put in such an amazing concept, only to never use it again
SPM's chapter 7 is my favorite as well, the concept is just so cool. I love that it's all heavily inspired by real world myth, and "Game Overs" are incorporated in-universe as the equivalent to death. If whatever Paper Mario follows the TTYD remake decides to revisit previous ideas, I would scream if they found a way to work in those characters
That interview about not being able to make new variants has always been iffy to me. Sticker Star had Poison Bloopers, which are just as much of a variant as Clubbas or Putrid Piranhas. There's also Mural Koopas and Mural Goombas, which are extremely stylized. Also, I think the Superstar Saga changes were due to budget constraints, since the Bowser's Inside Story remake had new species as the Best Fitness Friends
Yeah the whole thing is super weird, I'm just happy the restrictions seem to be loosening. We've already got faithful (and what looks to be faithful) remakes of Super Mario RPG + The Thousand Year Door, so we'll see what types of character designs we'll get in a brand new release. Sticker Star & Color Splash did have Poison Bloopers, while the Mural Koopas/Goombas appear in The Origami King, though they seem to be the only real expections that break the vaguely defined rule. I could make a huge list of all the variants of the original Paper Mario games. Fair enough, I can see the Superstar Saga/BiS changes being due to budget constraints via reusing assets. I can also see why the interview has been iffy to you--it's very odd for this all to have effected the Paper Mario series only
I personally put little stock in the interview, as the only official directive Miyamoto was ever documented to have given the team was “stick to established characters in the Super Mario franchise“. And even then, it was intended more to be well intentioned advice because he didn’t think Sticker Star was headed in a direction that was going to work. The bigger issue nobody talks about is the shift in executive producers at IS and how no one there really knew what they were doing when it came to Paper Mario; which resulted in them taking a shot in the dark and crossing their fingers.
@@Nintendotron64If Mario and Luigi Paper Jam is anything, to go by, those restrictions could actually be true since it still includes the Paper Mario and the game wasn't as creative as previous M&L games.
Heck, Paper Jam’s more generic storyline is because the game had development issues and scaled things back as a result. The loss of stylization is not purely because they want to play things safe.
I grew up with original trilogy, and I'm more than excited for the TTYD remake, but I also grew up with a more open mind on Color Splash and The Origami King. Color Splash, while suffering with a lackluster combat system, has really hilarious dialogue and interesting settings and themes. The Origami King, the game I personally enjoy the most out of the modern trilogy, has a fantastic soundtrack that I still listen to this day, and the areas you visit are fun to explore. The combat system, while not perfect, doesn't bother me as much as the ones from the last two games. Like you, I actually like at least 5 out of the 6 games, and they all have their pros and cons. The original trilogy just has higher pros and fewer cons. Screw the tedious backtracking in the TTYD, though. I hope they fix that in the remake. And the less said about Sticker Star, the better.
This makes me think that Paper Jam is the game that came from a mother before the 2nd one, but didn't work out. The new mother had either 4 kids or 4 sets of twins (the Mario & Luigi games) and Paper Jam is now the weird child that doesn't fit into either camp, and is mostly here because his mother died.
i cried at the same parts 😅 origami king is so fun and the stationery bosses are silly in a good way!! its a shame you cant go like anywhere online abt it without seeing arguments at least once
Olivia was such a cute character. The exploration aspects like finding all of the hidden Toads and finding the statues were all really fun. I just wish the main battle system were the paper macho battles tho, they were actually really fun to fight.
You cried? Well we all cried at that part, but Olivia probably cried the most (as well as probably Mario too, even tho we don’t see the iconic plumber sad most times, he does have some emotions).
Some people might be upset about the bosses being normal objects instead of unique paper characters, but I honestly love it. Their contrast to the rest of the world makes them standout, and them having unique personalities does enough to make them memorable without needing unique paper designs. Scissors will always be a badass edgelord to me.
this is an amazing analogy to how to treat the series, I've seen others talk about them divided before which is very much apparent in the fandom but using the idea of them being a family is a really good idea!
Thank you! It's definitely a bit of an odd analogy but I do think it's appropriate for the unique situation the fans of this franchise are in. I'm glad you liked the idea!
What’s funny is that they where asked by Miyamoto to not make new characters, but the thing is that it wasn’t an order but a suggestion since he has no influence on the Paper series. So technically we could still existing characters like Bob-omb that would be from TTYD but also classic ones from OK
I absolutely love Color Splash and Oragami King, but I do also love the idea of the first three. I'm gonna play the TTYD remake when it releases, because it seems like something I'd genuinely love too.
I'm going to be honest about something, I didn't grow up with ttyd, I played most of the other games before playing that one, still, once I got to play it, I understanded the love and I can say it's definitely one of the best, if not the best of the series. But the toxicity of the community towards the other games made me really starting have a lack of enjoyment when it comes to ttyd, be the game or just things like content on youtube, I start to actually get annoyed at people when they say thousand year door is the best one, even though I AGREE with they. In the end, I have nothing against the game, it's really just against the community itself, but it become something hard to enjoy when I can't even bring up the good things of other games without someone "correcting" me.
That's... actually a very solid analogy, now that I think about it. While likely impossible to happen, I really do hope the Paper Mario fandom becomes kinder towards one another. Great video!
Paper mario 64 - has great intro teaching you how it works Paper mario ttyd - great gameplay having fun game design Super Paper mario - Great story telling that brings tears
Yeah, it's like a reboot of the series even though it wasn't advertised as such and there's *very occasional* references to the originals. It's unfortunate that Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam released when it did because while mechanically it's a very fun game to play, the Paper Mario representation was very weak because it couldn't embrace its own history and used only assets from Sticker Star
Yes, I also agree SPM is the third in the storybook trilogy. They just wanted to be different, especially since it was originally developed for the GameCube; they didn't want to cannibalize the sales of TTYD. But it clearly has more similarities to the first 2 games over Sticker Star... I'd prefer a new SPM style game over another style from the popup trilogy
The fandoms like a taco, games like super paper Mario to Origami king are the little meat pieces that fall out that you save for a later taco, and the first two games are like the tortilla, irreplaceable.
Btw, I should mention it, but while the newer Paper Mario doesn´t seems to have the same continuity, it has some clear references to older Paper Mario Universe. One of the most obvious, is the Princess Portraits on TOK Ship section, but on a more direct note, there are references to Goombella and ParraKarry on the level 5-1 garbage zone. And a last one, is that Princess Peach Castle has blue flags resembling PM64 Peach Castle, and knowing that on beta leftover they are red Mario64 flags, this seems like a deliberate change.
I talk about all of those references except for that last one at 11:48! I decided that while there is a clear through-line connecting all six games with light callbacks like this, the threads that hold them together are much stronger with the separate trilogies. Thanks for your comment, it is important to mention!
The analogy you used to explain this was really interesting, it’s somewhat funny how the last three got categorized considering how those games get dark, especially he origami king
I feel SPM shouldn’t be grouped in with the first two, but it shouldn’t be grouped in with the modern games. In many ways it was a successor to TTYD, but in many ways it was the beginning of the changes in the series. In terms of the analogy, I recall you mentioned the father dating multiple people after the divorce before settling down with the mother behind the modern games, so I feel having SPM depicted as a product of one of those in between relationships is more fitting than throwing it in with 64 and TTYD considering how different SPM is to them.
I am a DIEHARD fan of origami king. actually one of my favorite games ever, even though the combat does suck ass. The comedy, music and art direction were perfect to me. I think they did a lot of creative things with the stupid limitations, like the bob-omb plot and the art supply bosses having really fitting personalities. I hope TTYD does well so a) the TTYD fans shut up and b) we can get a new set of games that looks and sounds like origami king but has the character design and battle of TTYD
I have never been one to stoke flames in any kind of Fandom...because, what's the point? People deserve to enjoy what they enjoy, even if we may not all the time. Be it Star Wars, Paper Mario...or anything, it's okay to be critical, but to mercilessly tear down people's work and fans is just not for me.
Yes, thank you! It's sad to see any community based around something you love acting toxic because of fans not accepting eachother. I love when discourse get heated, but there's a difference between respectful debates and berating another for disagreeing with your opinions.
Yeah. It's important that people be respectful, even if they don't agree. If they don't, it more just makes me uncomfortable being in those fandoms, to the point that it's prevented me from playing or watching media I actually wound up really liking.
@@michaelkaduck1915 for sure, I actually avoided Undertale when it first came out and didn't wind up playing until years later even though I knew I'd love it, because I remember EarthBound/UT fans really having it out for eachother back then as the two were compared so much. It sadly created a lot of tension on both sides!
I loved undertale a lot, and i heard that the fanbase was toxic but never knew exactly why, but that didn't stop me from playing nor enjoying the game. And im sad to see that the PM community is literally split in half. My first and so far only pm game was ttyd. I was a little upset to find out the newer games were very different but am excited to see what new things they bring in.
I pretty sure that the only thing bad about sticker star, besides the art direction, is that it's confusing on where it wants you to go. I'm absolutely sure that if a remake were to help the game gesture you in the correct direction it'd make the game 10 times better. Not full out point, but loosen the requirements to beat the bosses. Color Splash also was this to a lesser extent, but make the game less specific and cryptic and easy 9/10.
The sad fact is that technically there are no restrictions on bosses. You can easily beat the Megasparkle Goomba without the fan. The rest require farming workarounds but no specified Thing Sticker is required. The funniest thing about this is that since everybody is in agreement Kersti hinders and belittles you, angering her should be a badge of pride. You mucked through the tedium to show Kersti up, and to even interact with her in that way is more than she deserves.
I prefer the time before I knew of the Paper Mario fandom. I grew up with TTYD on the GameCube, and loved it. Wasn’t perfect, but very enjoyable. When the Wii had virtual console, I was finally able to play the original, which was good as well. Saw how TTYD improved on some things, and even some stuff the original did better. Then, Super Paper Mario came out. I was excited, but was disappointed. I thought it was an alright game with a good story, but was missing a lot of the stuff I wanted in a Paper Mario game. No turn based battles, no full 3-D diorama-like worlds, an art style I do not like, little Mario characters and enemies (no new ones either), and a story that doesn’t feel Mario. The Mario cast could easily be switched and wouldn’t change the story, with Mario being the ‘ prophesied hero’ such an old tactic that can be used for anyone. Here comes Sticker Star, one of the reasons I bought a 3DS, and I really enjoyed it. Brought back tons of stuff I was missing, with an even craftier visuals, which I am all for. Sure, I’d love partners back, but I liked Kersti, enjoyed the inclusion of Bowser Jr. and Kamek, and had a blast 100% the game. Wasn’t until the trailers for Color Splash I learned about the fan base and their feelings about Sticker Star. To me, Sticker Star was always a step back in the right direction after Super, so I was so confused, and thought it stupid they were already throwing hate at a game that hasn’t even come out. Didn’t think much of it, got Color Splash, and loved it. Some of best visuals, music, and writing in the series (imo). By this time, I’d have been able to replay TTYD (before they became expensive online), and while still great, definitely showed more of its short coming (backtracking and level design being the most noticeable). Still fun, but less enjoyable and replay. Origami King is announced and I’m super excited, but the fandom is at it again. Definitely can tell several people didn’t even give Color Splash a chance, but wasn’t going to have them ruin these games for me. Now, anyone that likes the new games are shown as “kids who grew up with them”, meaning anytime I would want to talk about them, I would always have to say that I grew up with TTYD and like the new games (still have to, sadly). Before Origami King came out, I decided to replay Sticker Star and Color Splash. Not only did I still enjoy them, I think I liked them better on a replay, with Color Splash moving up to bring my favorite (ties with TTYD at that time). I was super excited for OK to come out and easily be my new #1. OK came out, and I loved it, but not enough to trump the others. For a while, my number 1 was a three way tie between TTYD, CS, and OK. After giving OK some time to digest, and another replay of TTYD, CS is my favorite with they other two tied for second. TTYD is great for a first time playthrough, but the slog of the boring or annoying level design (which only makes the backtracking more apparent), with no new surprises in the story, just made it less fun. All this time, the fandom fights, and the remake announcement just made some unbearable. The remake makes some people think it’s perfectly acceptable to be a garbage human being and crap on whatever they don’t like. Paper Mario will always hold a place in my heart, but the fandom will always be an ugly mess.
The fandom’s behavior makes me stray from the game in the series I enjoy like the original paper mario I still have on Wii U virtual console. Though playing the original and looking at the newer games has given me perspective on how the newer games can improve, there is still on thing I don’t like about a certain side of the fandom: their entitlement with how they see the franchise and its identity. The seniority complex on some people makes me not want to play TTYD out of spite, and that sucks cause without fandom discourse I love most of the games in the series! The more people prop up stuff on a pedestal the more I want it torn down. Played the original but didn’t finish it Played Super Paper Mario all the way through Went back and finished the original Played Origami King all the way through Have yet to complete sticker star.
I can respect that. I will never not see it as a sequel to the first two games because of all the lore continued between them, but it's fine to think of it as a "spinoff" of the first two. I did try and allude to that in the analogy, envisioning the child as not being as close to his two brothers & sleeping in a separate room but still having the same parents
As someone whos first PM game was Sticker Star i really enjoy it. Its definitely older fans shitting on it too much because even as a super fan the only thing i can agree with is sometimes you need something too specific thats not really explained at all. I get that part of hate but ill never understand anything else to hate about the game. It has character. Ive also played Super Paper and Origami king so ive grown up on the more split PM games overall. I really do enjoy them all and come back to them. If OG and TTYD fans could just look at the few good things of the newer games maybe the fandoms wouldnt ver so divided. I think me growing up on the split games is why i dont hate Color Splash, i just find it a little lost potential, even if i have never played it personally
I honestly wish more people would talk abt spm… It has such a lovely story, atmosphere and music!! It has its fair share of problems and I gotta admit they could’ve done more with the different story beats/ characters but its such a charming game still
I think that the series in the future will likely follow The Origami King. It is the third best selling Mario RPG ever and was mostly well received. It is also my favorite game in the series so I am very hopeful for that outcome. I think that the remakes of Super Mario RPG and The Thousand Year Door are safety remasters to decide the future of this franchise. However it is my belief that paper Mario 7 is well into development by now and will be an early Switch 2 release sometime around 2025.
I love TOK, so I don't personally mind a follow-up to it, although I do think it's time they try and make that new game with classic battle mechanics. They've been trying to reinvent the wheel with each entry--I thought the ring system was clever (especially the bosses, those were fun), but I know it was divisive and it's been long enough that another attempt at the original formula would be welcomed. I'm happy to see someone spreading TOK love, it needs more of it. I do think that it's the third best selling Mario RPG because the Switch install base is massive, though. TTYD's sales were impressive for example because the numbers were very high for the far fewer amount of people who owned GameCubes than Switch, so it had a great attach rate
I normally reserve my negativity for the Pokemon fanbase, but honestly, I don't see this one getting any better. We've been seeing this for years now. A new game is released, and older fans complain and lash out at newer fans, claiming it's their fault the newer games continue their trend. And because of this, said newer fans retaliate. I agree that both sides should get along, but yeah, I'm just not seeing it happening anytime soon.
Honestly, if the Paper Mario fanbase does get along together, it will be because either the Paper Mario series is dead or because either of the trilogies is dead because they are kicked out with the seventh Paper Mario game. That is, either the Sticker Star-likes is THE direction and the Paper Mario fans kick themselves out, or the next few adventure is like either the first two or Super Paper Mario and the Sticker Star-likes are acknowledged as a 2010s mistake and nothing more. The original trilogy and the Sticker Star-likes are so irreconcilable that unlike most fandoms, it really will be the original game or the Sticker Star-likes.
Hopefully with the TYD remake, Nintendo will realize that sometimes the simplicity works the best, at least with the battle system. I'm more of a story person than a gameplay, if that makes sense. If the gameplay (in this case, battle system) is too complicated, I'm going to drop it and never touch it again. I'm there to enjoy the story, not to hurt my brain with puzzle logics (origami king, i'm looking at you). But okay Nintendo. Look at Pokemon for goodness' sake, their battle systems stayed the same (despite certain gimmicks differing with each generation) yet still is a wildly popular franchise to this day. sighs. That said, I DO hope that Nintendo will go back to being more creative with their npc designs though, to this day I still don't understand why they started sertilizing character designs and stayed adamant about that decision since. In my opinion, memorable characters adds so much to a story and even better if it's already a good story. Anyway, good video and thanks for the CC!
1:39 I can guarantee that the one excluded is the one with the (actual) worst backtracking, along with the least amount of dialogue from Peach and Bowser of all the Paper Mario games…
I played all paper Mario games and personally, even when it has its fans, and is a decision I respect, I dont despise Sticker Star as a Paper Mario entry, i despise Sticker Star as a game on general. It goes so much against what I consider a good designed game for some fundamental decisions I wasnt able to see any attractive. I felt that it you removed one of three genre SS wanted to focus (puzzles, NSMB like Platforming, RPG system) it would be better. The only good thing I can say about the game apart music and visuals, is that TTYD RE came 2 months after the SS completion, giving me so much hype for contrast that it was awesome.
I respect your take! I personally felt disappointment with the game more than anything because it was a new entry in one of my favorite series that betrayed what I had loved about it, but I can understand simply not enjoying SS as a game as I do agree that the structure is flawed. I like your thought of removing one of its genre focuses to polish up the others--the Enigmansion is a fine example of how the game could work as that level leans more into having good atmosphere & puzzle design. I am very excited for the TTYD remake, and I'm curious to see which direction Intelligent Systems takes Paper Mario next!
It's great that this video is made by someone by who loves all paper mario game with the exception of sticker stars, this "classic sonic vs modern sonic" fanbase really needs to get along and stop belittling each other Also do you know the main reason why I don't like sticker stars personally? Because it ruined the fans' expectations on what fans wants paper mario as series to be like it should stick to the TTYD formula and nothing else
That's a great point, as far as why you don't like Sticker Star! If SS made some key changes such as giving the battle system more time in the oven--and being less like the New Super Mario Bros. of Paper Mario--I'm sure the newer games would be at least a bit more warmly recieved overall. SS did irreparable damage releasing in its final state as the new standard for the series, so of course doubling down (despite greatly improving with Color Splash & TOK imo), created this dissonance within the fandom. I almost didn't buy CS when it first released, but I'm glad I gave it a chance back then because I do think that (while not totally fixing SS's problems), it does a lot right & I wound up loving it for what it is
We're closing in onto TTYD's Remake and I believe people are starting to understand why the (for now) modern trilogy rubbed so many people the wrong way. Had those Bizarre Restrictions that limited the game's fun not been there, I don't think people would have minded them as much. Sure the focal point of Hit-or-Miss Gimmicks (even SPM had them) aren't great, but many I feel were whiling to put up with.
I have only played TTYD. I never had an N64, and only ever got to try the original at my buddy’s house because his parents were the type to get him whatever he wanted. I did have a Wii (who didn’t), but I also lived in Germany at the time when Super came out, and getting English versions of games was a pain in the ass. Especially for a middle schooler. By the time Sticker Star came out, and I saw it was only for 3DS, I didn’t really care about Nintendo. Especially because of how different it was from TTYD. Then Color Splash is only available on WiiU, yet another console I didn’t have. And let’s not forget how nonchalant and uncaring Nintendo was when they announced it. I do own a switch, but after seeing the fan backlash for Sticker Star and Color Splash, and that DAMN interview, my hope and interest in the series was gone. I still had my GameCube and my copy of TTYD, and the memories I had of playing through it with my brother. He DID get Origami King, and as soon as he finished it, asked if he could borrow the GameCube and TTYD to “cleanse his pallet” I will say that I’m genuinely upset I never got to play Super, and would ABSOLUTELY LOVE for it to get the TTYD on Switch treatment. And I harbor no ill will towards the literal paper trilogy or its fans. It’s like being mad at Teen Titans Go. It’s not for me I am super hyped for the TTYD remake tho
The amount of Tenor GIFs hating on Super Paper Mario is absurd. It’s genuinely annoying and takes up a majority of the GIFs when I search up Paper Mario. To the people that think Super is the worst in the series, Sticker Star exists. Thank you for your time.
Honestly my tier list is 1: Color Splash (Probably Nistolga because it was my first RPG 2: 64/TTYD (I'm waiting till the remake to play it) 3: PMOK 4: Super Paper Mario 5: Sticker Star (I almost forgot about this one)
I've replayed all of them at least twice, except for *that one*...which I finished once and haven't touched since. I do actually want to play it again so I can take notes of all the things I can find to like about it, but it will forever be the game that dissapointed me the most on release.
@@ThaneGaming The funny thing is it was actually my first paper mario game and I enjoied it when I was joung. But looking back, it doesn't hold up much
@@justcallmeleonardo Have you played all the games since? I'm curious to know the order you went through them. I think if I hadn't played a Paper Mario game before it, I would've liked it a fair amount too
@@ThaneGaming Sadly I've only played Origami King. I've wanted to play the others for so long and I remember watching sooo many SPM let's plays a while back, but I own only a 3ds and a Switch and I'm not much into emulation so yeah. For this reason I'm very excited for the thousand year door remake!
I'm in the same boat as a fan of all the games minus Sticker Star, I mean if someone told me that they didn't like the classic trilogy and much more loved the modern one, than I wouldn't flame them, they have their preferences and I won't judge them. Tbh, the series can have the best of both worlds, TTYD had the paper aesthetic and were aware of being paper while still being an RPG with various unique elements, Mario folding up into a paper plane, boat, and tube are things you would expect out of the modern half of the series but TTYD pulled that card first. It was just heavily reinforced and became the over-arching theme from Sticker Star being stickers, Color Splash paint, and Origami King origami. I will say in terms of the unique characters, even under their philosophy of not altering characters, there were several missed opportunities to include pre-established friendly NPCs besides Toads that have appeared in the mainline games(like beach and ocean areas could've had Piantas, and grasslands could've had rabbits to chase). I doubt the creative liberties were that tight, they were just playing it too safe by sticking within the bounds of NSMB in terms of characters. I do appreciate though the couple times in the modern series where they pulled enemies we rarely ever see in any game, some being way older than others: SS had Frostii, CS brought back Dino Rhinos, featured Draggadon, and gave the Shy Guys more attention than even Goombas, and then TOK brought back really unexpected ones, Jumping Piranha Plant, Snow Spike, Sumo Bro, Sidestepper, even the Shoe Goomba in 1 sub-area, if only I could see what they look like unfolded. (Btw did you know the Amazing Flying Hammer Bro was a scrapped idea for TOK? It's in the concept art in the museum.) Unique NPC designs are a wonderful trait especially for general Mario characters, but I think SPM went a little overboard with the insane number of characters that looked totally alien from the Mario Universe, it was like 80% races we haven't seen before and the 20% were familiar looking residents of the Mushroom Kingdom, even if the story of SPM took place outside the Mushroom Kingdom, idk if that's just me. TTYD had the perfect balance of new races and familiar races with their own lives: with Doogans, craws, Punis and Twilighters, that's adding only a few new NPC races and the familiar populace of races, and even a few vague pre-established ones becoming prevalent like Little Mousers and Piantas. I feel like I'm the only one that enjoyed TOK's battle system, sure it took a little more brain power than just picking a card and painting it, but it felt so satisfying destroying rows of enemies with 1 selected attack instead of just bouncing on 1 enemy 5 times, though that system should stay exclusive to this game. The bosses really felt like Bosses with them positioned in the middle of the ring and we guide Mario to the center. Color Splash's system didn't feel as bad as Sticker Star because, we didn't have to buy access to more moves during battles and the cards we got were more plentiful and even at times packed into x2, x3 & x5 of a worn-out hammer or jump, so even if we kill the enemies before we use all our cards, at least if they are all worn out or weak cards I have no problem, Fire and Ice Flowers were far better too(this game also had an incentive to fight enemies unlike SS, we can upgrade our paint meter and collect enemy cards). After saying all on my mind, I am very excited for the remake of TTYD, I do hope that whether by the influence of the surveys or the selling units when the game releases, that the direction of the franchise will curve for the better.
The ideal outcome for the franchise going forward would be to take the original and modern trilogies, and bring them together to get the best of both worlds and please everyone. Which makes it all the sadder and more frustrating when both sides of the conflict firmly believe the only correct solution is to pretend the "opposing" trilogy never existed/isn't even part of the same series, giving an entire audience the middle finger while refusing to call them "true fans" or show any consideration to what they enjoy about Paper Mario. So long as the community refuses to change in that regard, I refuse to consider myself a part of it like I used to. I want none of that "we don't talk about anything past Super", nor any of that "TTYD elitists ruin everything", nor even the ongoing "TTYD remake will save this entire series, the modern trilogy won't be missed"; I just want a community that actually has the basic decency to respect each other without thinking of each other as harmful pests or laughingstocks.
Paper Mario was inarguably inspired by Super Mario RPG with the timed hits/tattles, syrup replenishing FP, and the focus on stars & wishes. It was even envisioned as a direct sequel! However, I feel that the final product ultimately deviated too much, and it became a new thing with its own worldbuilding. A "reimagining" much like Sticker Star, CS, & TOK having their own continuity. It wasn't made by Square Enix, and there are no callbacks besides what I mentioned above. It is an interesting idea, but because SPM furthers the lore unique to the previous two, I can't see casting it aside in favor of SMRPG. Maybe they can all be considered a "quartet" of games lol
I miss recipes!! And Merlin and partners and so much. But what I miss the most is unique characters and species/races. Leave the generic Mario characters to the mainline games. Let the RPGs be their own thing! I also miss deeper stories, although those have been getting better. Part of the reason CS is so much better than SS is because the latter has the most bland locales and absolutely no story.
Agreed! I did actually enjoy the plot of The Origami King very much, and while Color Splash's story was still fairly light, you're right--it was leagues above what Sticker Star did. SS disappointed me so much following Super PM, as it stripped away everything the series had built up to that point (especially Bowser's character), and gave us a less interesting plot than 64. It really did feel like the New Super Mario Bros. of Paper Mario, but Color Splash & TOK managed to be much more interesting in terms of writing and exploration
My first Paper Mario game was Origami King and I am a STRONG defender of it today. I played the TTYD remake too, and absolutely LOVED it. I think that you’re right, these games should be categorized in two because they’re very different, but I think they’re both great in their own right. I also want to know which game you didn’t love 😂
And now the remake is like the middle child from the first family was preparing for his return, his older and younger siblings gave him lucky charms and support, but the other siblings from the other mother are the ones who actually help him dress up for the occasion and give him advice for the new world.
TO add onto this, Mario RPG is the grandfather that created the idea of a mario RPG and the mario and luigi series is the brother of the paper mario series that passed away too early and brought back their grandpa and eventually got the father and the ex back on speaking terms
As someone who likes both the classic quadrilogy and 2/3rds of the "newer" games (Sticker Star is the only one I genuinely disliked), all the flame wars caused by the reveal of Remake!TTYD just makes me sad. We should be celebrating that we got it, not using it as a metaphorical cudgel to attack the newer games and people who *dare* to like them. I think it also helps that the streamers i follow (some big like Vinesauce and a couple smaller ones) were generally a bit more willing to engage the later two games of the Pop-Up Book trilogy on their own merits rather than just being sore about Sticker Star (and letting that taint their attitude towards the later games) unlike certain other big personalities/fans in the space. What I'm saying here is that I get being critical of the newer games, but the announcement of the TTYD remake ended up tilting a lot of that criticism/negativity into outright toxicity. That shits never fun to deal with if ones a fan of both collections.
As a kid i liked sticker star (not as much the more repeat plays i did growing up) From the modern pm ganes I just want a fun game with a hint of difficulty a reason to fight and enemies and unique npcs/places As someone who played spm, sticker star, pm, and ttyd soon im that order, I think that without leveling up there is no incentive to fight really I personally believe that just having a level up system and making tweaks to the modern battle systems would do plenty for me personally
I still don't understand why people think origami king is a mid or bad game because it can be very fun I just don't understand why people will say I like sticker star and color splash even though I don't like those 2 games (P.S. I have played the original and super and I wanna play TTYD SO badly)
I forgot about Paper Jam's existence for a while. It's a good concept, but knowing that all the stuff seen in Paper Mario games are just part of a story but is kind of sad. At least we know Paper Mario is canon somehow in the actual Mario storyline.
I've never had a problem with people enjoying the modern games, I tend to critique the games themselves. I even like them to an extent, just dislike some aspects- Mostly the lack of unique character design and worldbuilding while matching with an equally unique narrative. Like stated in your analysis, games like Oragami King tries to remedy some of these issues but was held back by limitations. I've never had a problem with the papercraft artstyle- Quite the opposite, really. I love it- It's just when there are a couple hundred different characters just named 'Toad' or 'Bob-Omb' is when I kinda take issue. That said, I do think the latter 3 games have their merits and I enjoy them to an extent, even if I just can't appreciate them as much as the original 3.
My personal favourite paper mario is super, and i would love a sequel. But i think every opinion has to have his room and should have the right to expand. Seeing that Nintendo cares about theese games and they are able to hear opinions makes more probable that we will get a 3rd in the style of the 1st 2 games. But i would love to see the possibility of a super paper mario 2 on the future and even the stickers games have a chance. Either way, this route looks healthy for the series, will play the remake.
I was one of the haters of Super Paper when it came out. I found it boring and hated the lack of turn based combat. Looking back now, I feel I and possibly many others just hated it because of TTYD. Super is what the natural progression should be, leaning more into the Mario name than the paper gimmick as hard.
I didn't hate Super when it first came out because I loved how weird the world & story was, and the fact that it did bring back a lot of elements from the first two games. I remember being disappointed with the combat, but I always thought "this is a one-off thing. The next game will be a return to form for sure". Couldn't be further from the truth haha
I dont consider Super to be as a progresion, instead as a fun experiment, I personally wasn´t convinced for the gameplay, but the story was enough to make that my favorite. Never seen a game do that before.
@@JoseViktor4099 I only say that in the sense of I would rather enjoy that style over giant paper gimmick bosses. I think the Paper Mario series works best when it's a good balance of Mario and paper.
@@JoseViktor4099 Yes I feel similarly, though I did eventually warm up to the action-platforming gameplay. I never thought the next game would switch things up again, and then double down w/ subsequent entries...it made me appreciate the elements that were retained from the original & TTYD. Super is the wildest story a Mario game has ever told, I love revisting it and giving others who don't know anything about it a synopsis of the plot. They're always very surprised!
@@bobseesall Me too. Im not really against Paper on a visual standpoint, but im indeed against the take they made on the last three games regarding it.
I started with TOK and now in retrospect I find it baffling that they didn’t just stick with the style of the first 2 games. I enjoyed 64 & TTYD SOO MUCH MORE, and while I DID enjoy TOK’s witty humour the combat was just kinda… Awful…. Change for the sake of change…
Tbh I would love to see a Paper Mario game just use the best things from the classic trilogy and the modern trilogy, the classic would have the battle system and partners that travel everywhere with you and then the modern trilogy it would be the writing and the world (like TOK)
I try not to be too vocal about how I don’t like the recent Paper Mario games. Well… I don’t like Sticker Star, the other two I flat out haven’t played, but that was more out of my own hesitation. I absolutely acknowledge Color Splash and Origami King are doing their own thing, and are good for what they are, rather than bad for what they aren’t. I tried giving Sticker Star 2 chances. The first ended with me getting fed up with the vagueness of the combat statuses. The second… I didn’t even get to the games actual BS sections, but the game bugged out and had poor Mario plummeting under the geometry. And I hit a kill zone. I was just done at that point. I also tried reading the dialogue more carefully that time and was really annoyed with how… “off” it read to me. Can’t explain it.
I like all of these. I just like less the two first games bc i don't really like turn by turn rpgs in general (Except undertale, and mario& luigi). I still like these bc of the overworld things
this will only work if the next paper mario game is closer to the first 2, cause if its anything like the last 2, people will immediately be up in arms fighting again sadly. the thing about all the hostility that comes from the seperation of the fanbase is that it all stems from the previous style of paper mario's fanbase. i have never seen any fans of the new trilogy go out of there way to talk bad about the games (which truthfully would be funny cause theres very little to point out bad about the original trilogy) but you can go to every corner of youtube and see fans of the old heavily bashing the new. the analogy is for the broken family is good but all the conflict is almost always brought from one side of the family's fanbase sadly
Nothing wrong with that! I do want to replay the game to try and pick out all the things I can find to like about it. Sticker Star was disappointing to me personally, but I know it has great music, some funny moments, and the feeling of peeling up stickers was admittedly very satisfying. What do you like about SS?
@@ThaneGaming well a lot of things, the puzzle solving was satisying trying to figure out what i had to do (ex: the king goomba tower and those giant fans), the visuals were goregeus, like the whole world was handmade by the devs,, each area being like a little diorama (and personally, i wanna give it a try myself remaking those areas irl) the music was all amazing (especally glooper bloopers boss theme) i liked the writing and humor and all the clever paper stuff, and even the combat system, with every attack being one time use, i had to conserve attacks and take out enemys as efficently as i can (kinda like resident evil), and the journey that me and mario went on was good, going to vast places like the yoshi spynx, the haunted house, the minecart and tram ride, the giant desert tower with the baseball stadium at the top hinting twords the boss's weakness, the poison forest with the winding river, the suprise quiz show, the spiders nest, i could go on for another half hour. it felt like a journey to all the corners of the mushroom kingdom. i quite liked a lot of SS for what it was, rather than what it wasnt. what helps was that i never played any other paper mario game beforehand unless you count M&L Paper Jam (Bros.) as a half paper mario game (that one was also my first M&L game) so i dont really have a bias twords the series greats. since then ive played the incredible origami king, and a bit of 64, i want to play color splash but dont have a wiiu, and i have a wii and N64 so i could play the original trilogy, and im looking foreward to getting TTYD one day. (maybe when i get a OLED switch by selling my other two switches), but overall, i really liked sticker star. and all of that is why.
I want to preface my comment by saying I really enjoy and love your video, and I think you make some excellent points. As a member of the "really enjoy storybook, hate the pop-up" group, I will say the reason we are always so upset at the other trilogy and sparking conflict with those whose first games were the pop-up and enjoyed them is because they are two separate things. The fact that Nintendo and Intelligent Systems let the franchise become this much of a contrast is a huge detriment to not only the series, but its fans. And that's what the real core issue and problem is. The franchise has essentially become two separate entities, as you explained in this video. But I think a lot of the hate and backlash from Storybook fans stems from that core issue. It isn't necessarily an issue with the games, it's an issue with the pop up games being given the title of Paper Mario in the first place. If they wanted to make something completely different, they should have made it completely different, with a different name for a different franchise within Mario. But now that we do have 2 trilogies, the way companies and franchises work is that a franchise should only have one identity. And if you want to change that identity, then fine, the identity changes with it. And us Storybook fans had a problem with that change, as we loved the Storybook format. So we complain every time a new one comes out. Not saying that's right. To be honest, with me, I've just given up on Storybook Paper Mario ever coming back. Even with TTYD remake coming out, I'm still not so sure. And if the Storybook format does come back, then the franchise will STILL be divided, because once Nintendo makes that decision to go back, they most likely will stop making pop up book Paper Mario games entirely. Which, that reality I think is why the fanbase is so split and why the hatred for the pop up games exists so prevalently. You could have both, but that would require Nintendo and Intelligent Systems to decide to make both, further creating a split franchise, which would cause confusion for new fans, etc. It's also why I'm skeptical this new remake is going to change anything for us Storybook fans. I'm going to buy it and love the heck out of this remake, and I know that, but I don't know nor do I think it will create a decent change in the way they make their Paper Mario games. And, if it did create that change, why I'm also not so sure I'd actually enjoy the fact that they made the change, knowing it's going to do the same thing to pop up fans that the pop up games initially did to us Storybook fans. It is a whole freaking mess, and it's all because they decided to make Sticker Star and games like it for the Paper Mario series in the first place. It didn't have to be Paper Mario. It could have been titled anything else. But they titled it Paper Mario, and the fanbase will be forever split and doomed to fight because of decisions Nintendo and Intelligent Systems have made.
Thank you for the point about SPM. That game IS a true sequel to TTYD. The connections between them go even deeper than you mentioned. For example:
- TTYD and SPM have the same UI in most places (same menu backgrounds, "glove" text selector, same selection sounds)
- TTYD (and the first game for that matter) have all of their partners reappear as photos in Mario's house and as Catch Cards in SPM, and the game files indicate they were planned to make physical appearances as well but were scrapped for unknown reasons
-TTYD's action commands reappear as the mechanism behind items in SPM. The same design is used for them and everything. I feel like people really overlook this one
-TTYD and SPM use the same environments for recurring areas (Mario's house, Bowser's Castle, etc.) They use the same models, backgrounds, and everything. They are quite literally the same places
-TTYD and SPM use the same engine and maps from one game can be loaded in the other via hacks
-TTYD and SPM are the only two games in the series with the Pit Of 100 Trials. SPM built on the idea (like a sequel does) by including two Pits with better rewards
-There are shared motifs and patterns everywhere, like with both games having a dragon as the first boss (Hooktail and Fracktail) who later has an upgraded version appear in the Pit (Bonetail and Wracktail)
-Both games use the same soundfont for their soundtracks, and leitmotifs from TTYD appear in SPM's soundtrack. (For example, Grodus' theme can be heard in the SPM track "In The Darkness")
-While this could possibly be included in the "shared patterns" bullet point, I'll make it a separate one because I feel it's notable. Both games' final chapters have the same layout: You fight through a castle of darkness to reach the main villain, and the battle turns out to be a fake final boss fight. The true main villain is then revealed as one of Mario's friend's is possessed to become the true demonic final boss. The end of the world commences. This true final boss is invincible until a supernatural power from the artifacts intercedes and Mario is emboldened. This parallel is so pronounced it's tough to ignore
-TTYD and SPM are the only Paper Mario games to be linked forward. Put another way, TTYD is the only game that intentionally foreshadowed its successor. The Toad in Petalburg in TTYD says that "if you like Luigi, you'll love the next [Paper Mario] game."
And on and on. I could keep going.
The only reason SPM changed the combat from TTYD is because SPM was originally expected to be a Gamecube game. The devs worried that another Paper Mario game on the same system with the same gameplay would be too repetitive, so they changed the combat. However, artistically speaking, they were made with the exact same sensibilities and intentions.
TTYD and SPM are like brothers with different hair colors. They're different in a single way, but they have the same DNA. Their similarities go right to the bone. Just because SPM doesn't have the same combat does not mean that it is not a true sequel.
spm technically has 3 pits
I love Super Paper Mario, and I’m so glad of the uprising defense of it.
Their basically like the Mario Bros
The final boss from flop-side 100 pit is also a reference to a TTYD character whose name definitely doesn't have the letter "p" in it.
The more I think about it, I can’t help but wonder if it would be possible to make a mod that allows SPM to use some form of the classic TTYD battle system. Instead of having Mario in the party at all times during battle you can switch your lead party member between all four playable characters and your “partner” slot is taken by your currently active Pixl. It would require a LOT of importing enemy data and making new animations, but if they were developed for the same console originally, it might be hypothetically possible...hmm.
Super Paper Mario is like that one kid whose siblings will occasionally ask their parents if he's adopted when he isn't. A bit different, but still ultimately cut from the same cloth.
That's my thoughts exactly
I didn’t like the gameplay tho
Pm 64 was the start
Ttyd said: ima see how i can improve what you did
SPM said: yall did some cool stuff, but ima try my own thing.
64 is the original recipe. Important, but can be improved upon. TTYD added stuff to improve the recipe without changing the dish too much. SPM chose to make their own dish using what was learned from the first two but kept some of the similar parts so it felt familiar.
Sticker star lost the original recipe and made it's own, but it was foul and bitter. Color splash attempted to improve it by making it look nicer but the core ingredient was rotten and unfixable, Origami King threw out that rotten ingredient and substituted it for something new to make the dish it's own so it didn't fall into the same trap as the two before it.
TTYD remake is someone finding the lost recipe and making the dish anew for a new generation to enjoy after many thought it would be lost forever.
More like “y’all objectively made two of the greatest pieces of media to ever exist, but instead of following up in that, ima settle for being a slightly above-average linear 2D platformer with a couple 3D young-child-targeted gimmicks mixed in”
Still 100000x better than Sticker star, Color Splash, and Origami King combined tho
@@fakename5308 hop off SPM and TOK lil bro
@@fakename5308 💩er Star, Color Trash, Bore-igami Thing.
@@HenshinFanaticI agree with Sticker Star being Shit, but CS and TOK are good PM Games to me
I now imagine the paper marios at a thanksgiving table as a bunch of various jumping, hammering, voice, and paper sounds come from it
i imagine the Annoying Partner Trio for the literal paper marios doing translation for the nonliteral paper marios and back the other way
After Mario Odyssey showed us half a dozen kingdoms each with their unique NPC races I really wish we could have those in a new Paper Mario aswell.
gonna be honest. it could be horifyingly detailed closeups or funny cut outs of real people photos for what I'm imagining new donker's in a paper mario style would look like now.
“Aswell” 😭
After Mario wonder too let's be real !! Just imagine some baboom, pikcord and all these mobs as paper NPC ! Even talking flowers and poplin it would be so cool !! poplins
Kensuke Tannabe is just bullshitting with us at this point
I also have been calling the first three "The Story Book" trilogy, but I call the last three the "Papercraft Trilogy".
The annoying thing about color splash is that it was so close to being a great game. It doesn’t have a super complex story or anything, but it’s not trying to so that doesn’t bother me. It’s easily the funniest Mario game ever made and the game is gorgeous and all the areas are super fun to explore and have something unique about them. The music is also fantastic. The only thing that drags it down is the battle system. The game has some other problems like those chase sequences were if you die it takes you all the way back to the title screen and the toads not having unique designs but those are all annoyances more than anything. I wouldn’t call them massive problems. If color splash was remade and it just ditched the battle system all together and it was just overworld combat like in super and it gave all of the toads unique designs, it would be glorious. I honestly like color splash way more than origami king. There are so many things in origami king that annoy me way more than anything in color splash
Yeah, I really like Color Splash, even more than most who played it, but the battle system does drag it down. I found the fights to be OK, perhaps a little better than Sticker Star, but to me it is leagues above that game overall because I found value in everything else (like you described). Sure, SS had great music and a couple of funny lines, but the stellar writing and exploration/locales of CS won me over. I agree that its issues unrelated to the combat are annoyances rather than major problems.
I found sticker star’s system better than Color splash’s because the Color splash one IS SO LONG. There’s so many inputs and it still has all the cards and stuff. At least sticker stat just lets you get straight to the attack. But stickers still suck.
@@bigdealbro3439but in CS, the fights actually *mean* something. Winning a fight gives you hammer points, which makes your first strikes stronger, allowing you to skip fights later down the line, and it also improves the amount of paint your hammer holds, so you don’t have to refill it as much. That definitely is enough for me to push CS way above both SS and OK due to the fact that there’s a resource that’s exclusive to battling again.
@@bracken8782 Ok maybe its better than Sticker Star, but not Origami King. The most efficient way to win coins is through battling and bosses, and coins are CRUCIAL in that game. The most efficient way to fill up your confetti bag is also battling, which is also CRUCIAL. If you dont need any of those you could argue its useless, especially in the last few areas where theres no shops and very little holes. But the best thing about the battle system is that the weapons arent consumerable, besides the more powerful ones and items which you get in shops, so you always have boots and hammer, plus some extras that wear off a bit with each use, not straight away. You dont have to look for a specific weapon because theres no cards or stickers. Definitely the best system of the three games.
@@bigdealbro3439 and yet the actual process of fighting is an absolute chore. Sorry, but i’d happily take the card system of color splash over the stupid board system from Origami King. It only ever worked on bosses, and even then it didn’t work well.
What makes the whole character restriction thing even more confusing is that if it really was established during Sticker Star's development, then why didn't it effect Drem Team in any way? That game came out a year later and still kept the same originality and charm of the previous Mario & Luigi games without any limitations. Even the changes made in the remakes are relatively minor, just some enemy designs having a more uniform look. It's not like they say straight up replaced Popple with Nabbit or something. The only M&L to abide the same limitations as Paper Mario happens to be the crossover with that series. It just feels like there's a strange double standard with those rules in regard to Paper Mario specifically.
They (Miyamoto especially) forgot it started as Mario Story and focused in on the paper aesthetic.
It really is Paper Mario specifically. Even the BIS remake created new villains for the side story, Mario&Luigi would have *never* failed to deliver new characters and species unless there was a mandate against it that came into effect due to their collaboration with the Paper Mario brand.
@@HenshinFanaticdon’t blame this shit on Miyamoto, blame all of it on Kensuke Tannabe
The whole interview that said they can’t make any new characters/different designs never really made sense to me since that’s exactly what other mario games don’t do. Take Odyssey for example, it introduced so many new characters/races to the series
I think Nintendo just holds their second-party studios to stricter standards than their in-house/first-party studios. Super's crazyness on their all-new mass-market console freaked them out, so they made Intelligent cool it down for the fiture games until now, but the in-house team is trusted and more curated, so they can do as they please.
@@speedslider3913 I can see that, as even playing through Mario VS Donkey Kong there is a feeling that the presentation is a bit generic. You could even say the same as to what happened wit the sports games for the Wii U era as well.
@@speedslider3913 honestly I could see that being the case
I like that the mom is the MMA fighter.
I've been a Paper Mario fan ever since I was 6 and as much as I adore this series, I've grown tired of arguing about it. I was really excited when TOK was announced and it was disheartening to see so much debate sparked over it just like Color Splash. I'm not saying we can't have critical discussions about the direction the series went in, as you said, but it's frustrating seeing both sides constantly at each other's throats. TTYD is one of my favorite games of all time, and it hurts to see fans of that game bash the new games and their fans, especially when it causes many to hate TTYD out of spite. I hope the remake finally breaks this cycle and this is a game many on both sides can enjoy, or at least respect the different opinions about.
Thanks for this video, I really like the analogy you put together and will keep it in mind when discussing this series and the discourse surrounding it with friends.
I was a diehard TOK fan until the remake, never really wanted to play the first three (I loved SPM's story but could never get myself to play it fully). After the remake I respect both sides equally now after finishing TTYD. TOK is so unfairly compared to TTYD after playing both, TOK is such a unique and fun game imo and people just think it's another slop paper mario game. It makes me really sad
@@cathode_mothray TOK is a really amazing game on its own, even Color Splash is good when you don't compare it to the others, it's just unfortunate they share a series with a game as beloved as TTYD yet are so different from it. I think a lot of people never gave TOK a chance because they went into it with a mindset of "how can I compare this to the first two games" without seeing the many ways TOK defines itself as a unique entry in the series.
Also, I'm glad you gave the remake a chance, it makes me happy seeing new fans and those who enjoy the modern games give it a try
i honestly loved SPM chapter 7 as a story, and i wish a game centered around Luvbi, Grambi, Jaydes, and Bonechill existed, as a game taking place after SPM. i just hate how they put in such an amazing concept, only to never use it again
SPM's chapter 7 is my favorite as well, the concept is just so cool. I love that it's all heavily inspired by real world myth, and "Game Overs" are incorporated in-universe as the equivalent to death. If whatever Paper Mario follows the TTYD remake decides to revisit previous ideas, I would scream if they found a way to work in those characters
That would be amazing tbh chapter 7 was definitely a highlight of the game's story
@@merlumili ikr?!
That interview about not being able to make new variants has always been iffy to me. Sticker Star had Poison Bloopers, which are just as much of a variant as Clubbas or Putrid Piranhas. There's also Mural Koopas and Mural Goombas, which are extremely stylized.
Also, I think the Superstar Saga changes were due to budget constraints, since the Bowser's Inside Story remake had new species as the Best Fitness Friends
Yeah the whole thing is super weird, I'm just happy the restrictions seem to be loosening. We've already got faithful (and what looks to be faithful) remakes of Super Mario RPG + The Thousand Year Door, so we'll see what types of character designs we'll get in a brand new release. Sticker Star & Color Splash did have Poison Bloopers, while the Mural Koopas/Goombas appear in The Origami King, though they seem to be the only real expections that break the vaguely defined rule. I could make a huge list of all the variants of the original Paper Mario games.
Fair enough, I can see the Superstar Saga/BiS changes being due to budget constraints via reusing assets. I can also see why the interview has been iffy to you--it's very odd for this all to have effected the Paper Mario series only
I personally put little stock in the interview, as the only official directive Miyamoto was ever documented to have given the team was “stick to established characters in the Super Mario franchise“. And even then, it was intended more to be well intentioned advice because he didn’t think Sticker Star was headed in a direction that was going to work.
The bigger issue nobody talks about is the shift in executive producers at IS and how no one there really knew what they were doing when it came to Paper Mario; which resulted in them taking a shot in the dark and crossing their fingers.
@@Nintendotron64If Mario and Luigi Paper Jam is anything, to go by, those restrictions could actually be true since it still includes the Paper Mario and the game wasn't as creative as previous M&L games.
Heck, Paper Jam’s more generic storyline is because the game had development issues and scaled things back as a result. The loss of stylization is not purely because they want to play things safe.
@@Leee275 That was more so due to its rocky development history than an active move to scale things back for Paper Mario’s sake.
I grew up with original trilogy, and I'm more than excited for the TTYD remake, but I also grew up with a more open mind on Color Splash and The Origami King.
Color Splash, while suffering with a lackluster combat system, has really hilarious dialogue and interesting settings and themes. The Origami King, the game I personally enjoy the most out of the modern trilogy, has a fantastic soundtrack that I still listen to this day, and the areas you visit are fun to explore. The combat system, while not perfect, doesn't bother me as much as the ones from the last two games.
Like you, I actually like at least 5 out of the 6 games, and they all have their pros and cons. The original trilogy just has higher pros and fewer cons. Screw the tedious backtracking in the TTYD, though. I hope they fix that in the remake. And the less said about Sticker Star, the better.
This makes me think that Paper Jam is the game that came from a mother before the 2nd one, but didn't work out. The new mother had either 4 kids or 4 sets of twins (the Mario & Luigi games) and Paper Jam is now the weird child that doesn't fit into either camp, and is mostly here because his mother died.
In a twisted follow up on the analogy Paper Jam was the child with the most complications during pregnancy.
I HATE that ppl are hating on Origami Kimg now, awesome characters, story, music i love it i cried at the end and at the Bobby part
i cried at the same parts 😅 origami king is so fun and the stationery bosses are silly in a good way!! its a shame you cant go like anywhere online abt it without seeing arguments at least once
Olivia was such a cute character. The exploration aspects like finding all of the hidden Toads and finding the statues were all really fun. I just wish the main battle system were the paper macho battles tho, they were actually really fun to fight.
Rip bobby (edit my dumbass can't spell)
You cried? Well we all cried at that part, but Olivia probably cried the most (as well as probably Mario too, even tho we don’t see the iconic plumber sad most times, he does have some emotions).
Some people might be upset about the bosses being normal objects instead of unique paper characters, but I honestly love it. Their contrast to the rest of the world makes them standout, and them having unique personalities does enough to make them memorable without needing unique paper designs. Scissors will always be a badass edgelord to me.
this is an amazing analogy to how to treat the series, I've seen others talk about them divided before which is very much apparent in the fandom but using the idea of them being a family is a really good idea!
Thank you! It's definitely a bit of an odd analogy but I do think it's appropriate for the unique situation the fans of this franchise are in. I'm glad you liked the idea!
What’s funny is that they where asked by Miyamoto to not make new characters, but the thing is that it wasn’t an order but a suggestion since he has no influence on the Paper series. So technically we could still existing characters like Bob-omb that would be from TTYD but also classic ones from OK
I am guessing Super Mario RPG is the grandpa and Mario & Luigi Paper Jam is that cousin that early visits is what is talked about.
Super Mario RPG Is that grandpa who forgets all his grandsons names
I absolutely love Color Splash and Oragami King, but I do also love the idea of the first three. I'm gonna play the TTYD remake when it releases, because it seems like something I'd genuinely love too.
I'm going to be honest about something, I didn't grow up with ttyd, I played most of the other games before playing that one, still, once I got to play it, I understanded the love and I can say it's definitely one of the best, if not the best of the series.
But the toxicity of the community towards the other games made me really starting have a lack of enjoyment when it comes to ttyd, be the game or just things like content on youtube, I start to actually get annoyed at people when they say thousand year door is the best one, even though I AGREE with they.
In the end, I have nothing against the game, it's really just against the community itself, but it become something hard to enjoy when I can't even bring up the good things of other games without someone "correcting" me.
That's... actually a very solid analogy, now that I think about it. While likely impossible to happen, I really do hope the Paper Mario fandom becomes kinder towards one another. Great video!
Paper mario 64 - has great intro teaching you how it works
Paper mario ttyd - great gameplay having fun game design
Super Paper mario - Great story telling that brings tears
what I hate from paper mario 4,5 and 6 is how they make it like Paper mario 1,2, and 3 never happened
Yeah, it's like a reboot of the series even though it wasn't advertised as such and there's *very occasional* references to the originals. It's unfortunate that Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam released when it did because while mechanically it's a very fun game to play, the Paper Mario representation was very weak because it couldn't embrace its own history and used only assets from Sticker Star
Do you know that Sticker Star REFERENCES Goombella? Saying that she was gonna research on Chomp Ruins?
@@cutorly Ye I talk about it at 11:48
@@ThaneGaming Ah I see.
@@ThaneGaming Because the game had development issues. Let’s not forget that.
Yes, I also agree SPM is the third in the storybook trilogy. They just wanted to be different, especially since it was originally developed for the GameCube; they didn't want to cannibalize the sales of TTYD. But it clearly has more similarities to the first 2 games over Sticker Star... I'd prefer a new SPM style game over another style from the popup trilogy
Origami King was definitely someone’s first Paper Mario. But there’s no way they go back and dislike TTYD
Meanwhile, Super Mario RPG is the uncle the family doesn't like talking about.
He achieved too much and did a lot of great things but then got into a weird legal situation.
Mario RPG kinda underappreciated tho ngl
@@AlonzoTompkins Mostly due to his parents, but nowadays their parents seem to be on good terms.
The fandoms like a taco, games like super paper Mario to Origami king are the little meat pieces that fall out that you save for a later taco, and the first two games are like the tortilla, irreplaceable.
That's beautiful 🌮
Btw, I should mention it, but while the newer Paper Mario doesn´t seems to have the same continuity, it has some clear references to older Paper Mario Universe. One of the most obvious, is the Princess Portraits on TOK Ship section, but on a more direct note, there are references to Goombella and ParraKarry on the level 5-1 garbage zone. And a last one, is that Princess Peach Castle has blue flags resembling PM64 Peach Castle, and knowing that on beta leftover they are red Mario64 flags, this seems like a deliberate change.
I talk about all of those references except for that last one at 11:48! I decided that while there is a clear through-line connecting all six games with light callbacks like this, the threads that hold them together are much stronger with the separate trilogies. Thanks for your comment, it is important to mention!
Apologies!
@@JoseViktor4099 you're totally fine! I didn't mention the flags on Peach's Castle--I forgot they did that so I'm happy you brought it up
The analogy you used to explain this was really interesting, it’s somewhat funny how the last three got categorized considering how those games get dark, especially he origami king
I feel SPM shouldn’t be grouped in with the first two, but it shouldn’t be grouped in with the modern games. In many ways it was a successor to TTYD, but in many ways it was the beginning of the changes in the series. In terms of the analogy, I recall you mentioned the father dating multiple people after the divorce before settling down with the mother behind the modern games, so I feel having SPM depicted as a product of one of those in between relationships is more fitting than throwing it in with 64 and TTYD considering how different SPM is to them.
You also fought to mention that Super Mario RPG would be the grandfather. And that the Mario and Luigi Paper Jam is a weird cousin.
I am a DIEHARD fan of origami king. actually one of my favorite games ever, even though the combat does suck ass. The comedy, music and art direction were perfect to me. I think they did a lot of creative things with the stupid limitations, like the bob-omb plot and the art supply bosses having really fitting personalities. I hope TTYD does well so a) the TTYD fans shut up and b) we can get a new set of games that looks and sounds like origami king but has the character design and battle of TTYD
So what sucks about the combat? I’d like to see if we line up.
I have never been one to stoke flames in any kind of Fandom...because, what's the point? People deserve to enjoy what they enjoy, even if we may not all the time. Be it Star Wars, Paper Mario...or anything, it's okay to be critical, but to mercilessly tear down people's work and fans is just not for me.
Yes, thank you! It's sad to see any community based around something you love acting toxic because of fans not accepting eachother. I love when discourse get heated, but there's a difference between respectful debates and berating another for disagreeing with your opinions.
Yeah. It's important that people be respectful, even if they don't agree.
If they don't, it more just makes me uncomfortable being in those fandoms, to the point that it's prevented me from playing or watching media I actually wound up really liking.
@@michaelkaduck1915 for sure, I actually avoided Undertale when it first came out and didn't wind up playing until years later even though I knew I'd love it, because I remember EarthBound/UT fans really having it out for eachother back then as the two were compared so much. It sadly created a lot of tension on both sides!
I loved undertale a lot, and i heard that the fanbase was toxic but never knew exactly why, but that didn't stop me from playing nor enjoying the game. And im sad to see that the PM community is literally split in half. My first and so far only pm game was ttyd. I was a little upset to find out the newer games were very different but am excited to see what new things they bring in.
Paper is extremely flammable so that's insane.
I pretty sure that the only thing bad about sticker star, besides the art direction, is that it's confusing on where it wants you to go. I'm absolutely sure that if a remake were to help the game gesture you in the correct direction it'd make the game 10 times better. Not full out point, but loosen the requirements to beat the bosses. Color Splash also was this to a lesser extent, but make the game less specific and cryptic and easy 9/10.
The sad fact is that technically there are no restrictions on bosses. You can easily beat the Megasparkle Goomba without the fan. The rest require farming workarounds but no specified Thing Sticker is required. The funniest thing about this is that since everybody is in agreement Kersti hinders and belittles you, angering her should be a badge of pride. You mucked through the tedium to show Kersti up, and to even interact with her in that way is more than she deserves.
I prefer the time before I knew of the Paper Mario fandom. I grew up with TTYD on the GameCube, and loved it. Wasn’t perfect, but very enjoyable. When the Wii had virtual console, I was finally able to play the original, which was good as well. Saw how TTYD improved on some things, and even some stuff the original did better.
Then, Super Paper Mario came out. I was excited, but was disappointed. I thought it was an alright game with a good story, but was missing a lot of the stuff I wanted in a Paper Mario game. No turn based battles, no full 3-D diorama-like worlds, an art style I do not like, little Mario characters and enemies (no new ones either), and a story that doesn’t feel Mario. The Mario cast could easily be switched and wouldn’t change the story, with Mario being the ‘ prophesied hero’ such an old tactic that can be used for anyone.
Here comes Sticker Star, one of the reasons I bought a 3DS, and I really enjoyed it. Brought back tons of stuff I was missing, with an even craftier visuals, which I am all for. Sure, I’d love partners back, but I liked Kersti, enjoyed the inclusion of Bowser Jr. and Kamek, and had a blast 100% the game.
Wasn’t until the trailers for Color Splash I learned about the fan base and their feelings about Sticker Star. To me, Sticker Star was always a step back in the right direction after Super, so I was so confused, and thought it stupid they were already throwing hate at a game that hasn’t even come out. Didn’t think much of it, got Color Splash, and loved it. Some of best visuals, music, and writing in the series (imo).
By this time, I’d have been able to replay TTYD (before they became expensive online), and while still great, definitely showed more of its short coming (backtracking and level design being the most noticeable). Still fun, but less enjoyable and replay.
Origami King is announced and I’m super excited, but the fandom is at it again. Definitely can tell several people didn’t even give Color Splash a chance, but wasn’t going to have them ruin these games for me. Now, anyone that likes the new games are shown as “kids who grew up with them”, meaning anytime I would want to talk about them, I would always have to say that I grew up with TTYD and like the new games (still have to, sadly). Before Origami King came out, I decided to replay Sticker Star and Color Splash. Not only did I still enjoy them, I think I liked them better on a replay, with Color Splash moving up to bring my favorite (ties with TTYD at that time). I was super excited for OK to come out and easily be my new #1.
OK came out, and I loved it, but not enough to trump the others. For a while, my number 1 was a three way tie between TTYD, CS, and OK. After giving OK some time to digest, and another replay of TTYD, CS is my favorite with they other two tied for second. TTYD is great for a first time playthrough, but the slog of the boring or annoying level design (which only makes the backtracking more apparent), with no new surprises in the story, just made it less fun.
All this time, the fandom fights, and the remake announcement just made some unbearable. The remake makes some people think it’s perfectly acceptable to be a garbage human being and crap on whatever they don’t like. Paper Mario will always hold a place in my heart, but the fandom will always be an ugly mess.
The fandom’s behavior makes me stray from the game in the series I enjoy like the original paper mario I still have on Wii U virtual console.
Though playing the original and looking at the newer games has given me perspective on how the newer games can improve, there is still on thing I don’t like about a certain side of the fandom: their entitlement with how they see the franchise and its identity.
The seniority complex on some people makes me not want to play TTYD out of spite, and that sucks cause without fandom discourse I love most of the games in the series! The more people prop up stuff on a pedestal the more I want it torn down.
Played the original but didn’t finish it
Played Super Paper Mario all the way through
Went back and finished the original
Played Origami King all the way through
Have yet to complete sticker star.
I'd say SPM is its own thing, not part of either side of the design. It is the 'transition' game, if you will.
I can respect that. I will never not see it as a sequel to the first two games because of all the lore continued between them, but it's fine to think of it as a "spinoff" of the first two. I did try and allude to that in the analogy, envisioning the child as not being as close to his two brothers & sleeping in a separate room but still having the same parents
Again, an excellent and timely remake, Thane…however, I am afraid you have STILL neglected to mention that the Super Paper Mario child is a goth.
With the announcement of TTYD Remake I'm glad this video received an addendum. It fits very now as its own standalone video!
now y'all know how sonic fans feel.
As someone whos first PM game was Sticker Star i really enjoy it. Its definitely older fans shitting on it too much because even as a super fan the only thing i can agree with is sometimes you need something too specific thats not really explained at all.
I get that part of hate but ill never understand anything else to hate about the game. It has character.
Ive also played Super Paper and Origami king so ive grown up on the more split PM games overall. I really do enjoy them all and come back to them. If OG and TTYD fans could just look at the few good things of the newer games maybe the fandoms wouldnt ver so divided. I think me growing up on the split games is why i dont hate Color Splash, i just find it a little lost potential, even if i have never played it personally
14:18 Instead of "on occasion" shoulda said "on Thanksgiving" as a small callback to 4:22
I agree, then I could've added a lovely turkey gobble sound to close out the video
I honestly wish more people would talk abt spm… It has such a lovely story, atmosphere and music!! It has its fair share of problems and I gotta admit they could’ve done more with the different story beats/ characters but its such a charming game still
I think that the series in the future will likely follow The Origami King. It is the third best selling Mario RPG ever and was mostly well received. It is also my favorite game in the series so I am very hopeful for that outcome. I think that the remakes of Super Mario RPG and The Thousand Year Door are safety remasters to decide the future of this franchise. However it is my belief that paper Mario 7 is well into development by now and will be an early Switch 2 release sometime around 2025.
I love TOK, so I don't personally mind a follow-up to it, although I do think it's time they try and make that new game with classic battle mechanics. They've been trying to reinvent the wheel with each entry--I thought the ring system was clever (especially the bosses, those were fun), but I know it was divisive and it's been long enough that another attempt at the original formula would be welcomed. I'm happy to see someone spreading TOK love, it needs more of it. I do think that it's the third best selling Mario RPG because the Switch install base is massive, though. TTYD's sales were impressive for example because the numbers were very high for the far fewer amount of people who owned GameCubes than Switch, so it had a great attach rate
I like PM64, Color Splash, and Origami King
That’s it that’s the whole comment
I'm just happy to see more Color Splash love, it gets a bad rap
Excited for the remake. Very anxious about whatll follow this
dad was never the same after his wife Miyamoto came into the family.
I normally reserve my negativity for the Pokemon fanbase, but honestly, I don't see this one getting any better. We've been seeing this for years now. A new game is released, and older fans complain and lash out at newer fans, claiming it's their fault the newer games continue their trend. And because of this, said newer fans retaliate. I agree that both sides should get along, but yeah, I'm just not seeing it happening anytime soon.
Honestly, if the Paper Mario fanbase does get along together, it will be because either the Paper Mario series is dead or because either of the trilogies is dead because they are kicked out with the seventh Paper Mario game. That is, either the Sticker Star-likes is THE direction and the Paper Mario fans kick themselves out, or the next few adventure is like either the first two or Super Paper Mario and the Sticker Star-likes are acknowledged as a 2010s mistake and nothing more. The original trilogy and the Sticker Star-likes are so irreconcilable that unlike most fandoms, it really will be the original game or the Sticker Star-likes.
Hopefully with the TYD remake, Nintendo will realize that sometimes the simplicity works the best, at least with the battle system. I'm more of a story person than a gameplay, if that makes sense. If the gameplay (in this case, battle system) is too complicated, I'm going to drop it and never touch it again. I'm there to enjoy the story, not to hurt my brain with puzzle logics (origami king, i'm looking at you).
But okay Nintendo. Look at Pokemon for goodness' sake, their battle systems stayed the same (despite certain gimmicks differing with each generation) yet still is a wildly popular franchise to this day. sighs.
That said, I DO hope that Nintendo will go back to being more creative with their npc designs though, to this day I still don't understand why they started sertilizing character designs and stayed adamant about that decision since. In my opinion, memorable characters adds so much to a story and even better if it's already a good story.
Anyway, good video and thanks for the CC!
1:39 I can guarantee that the one excluded is the one with the (actual) worst backtracking, along with the least amount of dialogue from Peach and Bowser of all the Paper Mario games…
You are correct! Bowser actually has no dialogue in the game at all💀
I played all paper Mario games and personally, even when it has its fans, and is a decision I respect, I dont despise Sticker Star as a Paper Mario entry, i despise Sticker Star as a game on general. It goes so much against what I consider a good designed game for some fundamental decisions I wasnt able to see any attractive. I felt that it you removed one of three genre SS wanted to focus (puzzles, NSMB like Platforming, RPG system) it would be better. The only good thing I can say about the game apart music and visuals, is that TTYD RE came 2 months after the SS completion, giving me so much hype for contrast that it was awesome.
I respect your take! I personally felt disappointment with the game more than anything because it was a new entry in one of my favorite series that betrayed what I had loved about it, but I can understand simply not enjoying SS as a game as I do agree that the structure is flawed. I like your thought of removing one of its genre focuses to polish up the others--the Enigmansion is a fine example of how the game could work as that level leans more into having good atmosphere & puzzle design. I am very excited for the TTYD remake, and I'm curious to see which direction Intelligent Systems takes Paper Mario next!
It's great that this video is made by someone by who loves all paper mario game with the exception of sticker stars, this "classic sonic vs modern sonic" fanbase really needs to get along and stop belittling each other
Also do you know the main reason why I don't like sticker stars personally? Because it ruined the fans' expectations on what fans wants paper mario as series to be like it should stick to the TTYD formula and nothing else
That's a great point, as far as why you don't like Sticker Star! If SS made some key changes such as giving the battle system more time in the oven--and being less like the New Super Mario Bros. of Paper Mario--I'm sure the newer games would be at least a bit more warmly recieved overall. SS did irreparable damage releasing in its final state as the new standard for the series, so of course doubling down (despite greatly improving with Color Splash & TOK imo), created this dissonance within the fandom. I almost didn't buy CS when it first released, but I'm glad I gave it a chance back then because I do think that (while not totally fixing SS's problems), it does a lot right & I wound up loving it for what it is
We're closing in onto TTYD's Remake and I believe people are starting to understand why the (for now) modern trilogy rubbed so many people the wrong way.
Had those Bizarre Restrictions that limited the game's fun not been there, I don't think people would have minded them as much.
Sure the focal point of Hit-or-Miss Gimmicks (even SPM had them) aren't great, but many I feel were whiling to put up with.
I have only played TTYD.
I never had an N64, and only ever got to try the original at my buddy’s house because his parents were the type to get him whatever he wanted.
I did have a Wii (who didn’t), but I also lived in Germany at the time when Super came out, and getting English versions of games was a pain in the ass. Especially for a middle schooler.
By the time Sticker Star came out, and I saw it was only for 3DS, I didn’t really care about Nintendo. Especially because of how different it was from TTYD.
Then Color Splash is only available on WiiU, yet another console I didn’t have. And let’s not forget how nonchalant and uncaring Nintendo was when they announced it.
I do own a switch, but after seeing the fan backlash for Sticker Star and Color Splash, and that DAMN interview, my hope and interest in the series was gone. I still had my GameCube and my copy of TTYD, and the memories I had of playing through it with my brother. He DID get Origami King, and as soon as he finished it, asked if he could borrow the GameCube and TTYD to “cleanse his pallet”
I will say that I’m genuinely upset I never got to play Super, and would ABSOLUTELY LOVE for it to get the TTYD on Switch treatment. And I harbor no ill will towards the literal paper trilogy or its fans. It’s like being mad at Teen Titans Go. It’s not for me
I am super hyped for the TTYD remake tho
The amount of Tenor GIFs hating on Super Paper Mario is absurd. It’s genuinely annoying and takes up a majority of the GIFs when I search up Paper Mario.
To the people that think Super is the worst in the series, Sticker Star exists. Thank you for your time.
Honestly my tier list is
1: Color Splash (Probably Nistolga because it was my first RPG
2: 64/TTYD (I'm waiting till the remake to play it)
3: PMOK
4: Super Paper Mario
5: Sticker Star (I almost forgot about this one)
1:42 I wonder, which one could you possibly not like? *glances at...it which shall not be named*
I've replayed all of them at least twice, except for *that one*...which I finished once and haven't touched since. I do actually want to play it again so I can take notes of all the things I can find to like about it, but it will forever be the game that dissapointed me the most on release.
@@ThaneGaming The funny thing is it was actually my first paper mario game and I enjoied it when I was joung. But looking back, it doesn't hold up much
@@justcallmeleonardo Have you played all the games since? I'm curious to know the order you went through them. I think if I hadn't played a Paper Mario game before it, I would've liked it a fair amount too
@@ThaneGamingit was my first. I went back recently. Wanted to peel my skin off.
@@ThaneGaming Sadly I've only played Origami King. I've wanted to play the others for so long and I remember watching sooo many SPM let's plays a while back, but I own only a 3ds and a Switch and I'm not much into emulation so yeah. For this reason I'm very excited for the thousand year door remake!
I'm in the same boat as a fan of all the games minus Sticker Star, I mean if someone told me that they didn't like the classic trilogy and much more loved the modern one, than I wouldn't flame them, they have their preferences and I won't judge them. Tbh, the series can have the best of both worlds, TTYD had the paper aesthetic and were aware of being paper while still being an RPG with various unique elements, Mario folding up into a paper plane, boat, and tube are things you would expect out of the modern half of the series but TTYD pulled that card first. It was just heavily reinforced and became the over-arching theme from Sticker Star being stickers, Color Splash paint, and Origami King origami.
I will say in terms of the unique characters, even under their philosophy of not altering characters, there were several missed opportunities to include pre-established friendly NPCs besides Toads that have appeared in the mainline games(like beach and ocean areas could've had Piantas, and grasslands could've had rabbits to chase). I doubt the creative liberties were that tight, they were just playing it too safe by sticking within the bounds of NSMB in terms of characters. I do appreciate though the couple times in the modern series where they pulled enemies we rarely ever see in any game, some being way older than others: SS had Frostii, CS brought back Dino Rhinos, featured Draggadon, and gave the Shy Guys more attention than even Goombas, and then TOK brought back really unexpected ones, Jumping Piranha Plant, Snow Spike, Sumo Bro, Sidestepper, even the Shoe Goomba in 1 sub-area, if only I could see what they look like unfolded. (Btw did you know the Amazing Flying Hammer Bro was a scrapped idea for TOK? It's in the concept art in the museum.) Unique NPC designs are a wonderful trait especially for general Mario characters, but I think SPM went a little overboard with the insane number of characters that looked totally alien from the Mario Universe, it was like 80% races we haven't seen before and the 20% were familiar looking residents of the Mushroom Kingdom, even if the story of SPM took place outside the Mushroom Kingdom, idk if that's just me. TTYD had the perfect balance of new races and familiar races with their own lives: with Doogans, craws, Punis and Twilighters, that's adding only a few new NPC races and the familiar populace of races, and even a few vague pre-established ones becoming prevalent like Little Mousers and Piantas.
I feel like I'm the only one that enjoyed TOK's battle system, sure it took a little more brain power than just picking a card and painting it, but it felt so satisfying destroying rows of enemies with 1 selected attack instead of just bouncing on 1 enemy 5 times, though that system should stay exclusive to this game. The bosses really felt like Bosses with them positioned in the middle of the ring and we guide Mario to the center. Color Splash's system didn't feel as bad as Sticker Star because, we didn't have to buy access to more moves during battles and the cards we got were more plentiful and even at times packed into x2, x3 & x5 of a worn-out hammer or jump, so even if we kill the enemies before we use all our cards, at least if they are all worn out or weak cards I have no problem, Fire and Ice Flowers were far better too(this game also had an incentive to fight enemies unlike SS, we can upgrade our paint meter and collect enemy cards).
After saying all on my mind, I am very excited for the remake of TTYD, I do hope that whether by the influence of the surveys or the selling units when the game releases, that the direction of the franchise will curve for the better.
The ideal outcome for the franchise going forward would be to take the original and modern trilogies, and bring them together to get the best of both worlds and please everyone.
Which makes it all the sadder and more frustrating when both sides of the conflict firmly believe the only correct solution is to pretend the "opposing" trilogy never existed/isn't even part of the same series, giving an entire audience the middle finger while refusing to call them "true fans" or show any consideration to what they enjoy about Paper Mario.
So long as the community refuses to change in that regard, I refuse to consider myself a part of it like I used to. I want none of that "we don't talk about anything past Super", nor any of that "TTYD elitists ruin everything", nor even the ongoing "TTYD remake will save this entire series, the modern trilogy won't be missed"; I just want a community that actually has the basic decency to respect each other without thinking of each other as harmful pests or laughingstocks.
Super Paper Mario was not part of the original trilogy, because Super Mario RPG was really the original first game
Paper Mario was inarguably inspired by Super Mario RPG with the timed hits/tattles, syrup replenishing FP, and the focus on stars & wishes. It was even envisioned as a direct sequel!
However, I feel that the final product ultimately deviated too much, and it became a new thing with its own worldbuilding. A "reimagining" much like Sticker Star, CS, & TOK having their own continuity. It wasn't made by Square Enix, and there are no callbacks besides what I mentioned above. It is an interesting idea, but because SPM furthers the lore unique to the previous two, I can't see casting it aside in favor of SMRPG. Maybe they can all be considered a "quartet" of games lol
I miss recipes!! And Merlin and partners and so much. But what I miss the most is unique characters and species/races. Leave the generic Mario characters to the mainline games. Let the RPGs be their own thing! I also miss deeper stories, although those have been getting better. Part of the reason CS is so much better than SS is because the latter has the most bland locales and absolutely no story.
Agreed! I did actually enjoy the plot of The Origami King very much, and while Color Splash's story was still fairly light, you're right--it was leagues above what Sticker Star did. SS disappointed me so much following Super PM, as it stripped away everything the series had built up to that point (especially Bowser's character), and gave us a less interesting plot than 64. It really did feel like the New Super Mario Bros. of Paper Mario, but Color Splash & TOK managed to be much more interesting in terms of writing and exploration
super paper mario is a good game, i wish they made another rpg platformer game like it
My first Paper Mario game was Origami King and I am a STRONG defender of it today. I played the TTYD remake too, and absolutely LOVED it. I think that you’re right, these games should be categorized in two because they’re very different, but I think they’re both great in their own right.
I also want to know which game you didn’t love 😂
It should probably be as simple as “these 3 games are good” and “these 3 newer games aren’t so good”.
I've only ever played origami king and am currently playing ttyd and both are great in my opinion.
And now the remake is like the middle child from the first family was preparing for his return, his older and younger siblings gave him lucky charms and support, but the other siblings from the other mother are the ones who actually help him dress up for the occasion and give him advice for the new world.
The Mario and Luigi series is the dinkleberg family for this paper mario family
Justice for sticker star
TO add onto this, Mario RPG is the grandfather that created the idea of a mario RPG and the mario and luigi series is the brother of the paper mario series that passed away too early and brought back their grandpa and eventually got the father and the ex back on speaking terms
As someone who likes both the classic quadrilogy and 2/3rds of the "newer" games (Sticker Star is the only one I genuinely disliked), all the flame wars caused by the reveal of Remake!TTYD just makes me sad. We should be celebrating that we got it, not using it as a metaphorical cudgel to attack the newer games and people who *dare* to like them.
I think it also helps that the streamers i follow (some big like Vinesauce and a couple smaller ones) were generally a bit more willing to engage the later two games of the Pop-Up Book trilogy on their own merits rather than just being sore about Sticker Star (and letting that taint their attitude towards the later games) unlike certain other big personalities/fans in the space.
What I'm saying here is that I get being critical of the newer games, but the announcement of the TTYD remake ended up tilting a lot of that criticism/negativity into outright toxicity. That shits never fun to deal with if ones a fan of both collections.
As a kid i liked sticker star (not as much the more repeat plays i did growing up)
From the modern pm ganes I just want a fun game with a hint of difficulty a reason to fight and enemies and unique npcs/places
As someone who played spm, sticker star, pm, and ttyd soon im that order, I think that without leveling up there is no incentive to fight really
I personally believe that just having a level up system and making tweaks to the modern battle systems would do plenty for me personally
I still don't understand why people think origami king is a mid or bad game because it can be very fun I just don't understand why people will say I like sticker star and color splash even though I don't like those 2 games
(P.S. I have played the original and super and I wanna play TTYD SO badly)
If they wanted to release a game with fundamentally different features/mechanics then Paper Mario, they should have made a new series all together.
Ah... i remember the days when super was looked down upon and now it's mostly accepted... good times
If the battle system in SPM was the same/upgrade over TTYD's, it would be the best in the series hands down. But nope.
Paper Mario, the medium, vs. Paper Mario, the setting.
Lore of Paper Mario's Fandom Explained With a Broken Family Analogy [Redux] momentum 100
I forgot about Paper Jam's existence for a while. It's a good concept, but knowing that all the stuff seen in Paper Mario games are just part of a story but is kind of sad. At least we know Paper Mario is canon somehow in the actual Mario storyline.
I've never had a problem with people enjoying the modern games, I tend to critique the games themselves. I even like them to an extent, just dislike some aspects- Mostly the lack of unique character design and worldbuilding while matching with an equally unique narrative. Like stated in your analysis, games like Oragami King tries to remedy some of these issues but was held back by limitations.
I've never had a problem with the papercraft artstyle- Quite the opposite, really. I love it- It's just when there are a couple hundred different characters just named 'Toad' or 'Bob-Omb' is when I kinda take issue. That said, I do think the latter 3 games have their merits and I enjoy them to an extent, even if I just can't appreciate them as much as the original 3.
PMOK should be on it’s own, may not be a TTYD but not a sticker star by any means
I think I just found a new favorite series :D
My personal favourite paper mario is super, and i would love a sequel.
But i think every opinion has to have his room and should have the right to expand. Seeing that Nintendo cares about theese games and they are able to hear opinions makes more probable that we will get a 3rd in the style of the 1st 2 games. But i would love to see the possibility of a super paper mario 2 on the future and even the stickers games have a chance.
Either way, this route looks healthy for the series, will play the remake.
If the games were personified, what would they look like?
I was one of the haters of Super Paper when it came out. I found it boring and hated the lack of turn based combat. Looking back now, I feel I and possibly many others just hated it because of TTYD. Super is what the natural progression should be, leaning more into the Mario name than the paper gimmick as hard.
I didn't hate Super when it first came out because I loved how weird the world & story was, and the fact that it did bring back a lot of elements from the first two games. I remember being disappointed with the combat, but I always thought "this is a one-off thing. The next game will be a return to form for sure". Couldn't be further from the truth haha
I dont consider Super to be as a progresion, instead as a fun experiment, I personally wasn´t convinced for the gameplay, but the story was enough to make that my favorite. Never seen a game do that before.
@@JoseViktor4099 I only say that in the sense of I would rather enjoy that style over giant paper gimmick bosses. I think the Paper Mario series works best when it's a good balance of Mario and paper.
@@JoseViktor4099 Yes I feel similarly, though I did eventually warm up to the action-platforming gameplay. I never thought the next game would switch things up again, and then double down w/ subsequent entries...it made me appreciate the elements that were retained from the original & TTYD. Super is the wildest story a Mario game has ever told, I love revisting it and giving others who don't know anything about it a synopsis of the plot. They're always very surprised!
@@bobseesall Me too. Im not really against Paper on a visual standpoint, but im indeed against the take they made on the last three games regarding it.
1:51
Grow as a phantom?
Fandom, though I can hear phantom haha
I like the idea that we fans are one collective phantom
@@ThaneGaming
Sorry, ha ha ha
I am more confused
I started with TOK and now in retrospect I find it baffling that they didn’t just stick with the style of the first 2 games. I enjoyed 64 & TTYD SOO MUCH MORE, and while I DID enjoy TOK’s witty humour the combat was just kinda… Awful….
Change for the sake of change…
Tbh I would love to see a Paper Mario game just use the best things from the classic trilogy and the modern trilogy, the classic would have the battle system and partners that travel everywhere with you and then the modern trilogy it would be the writing and the world (like TOK)
I try not to be too vocal about how I don’t like the recent Paper Mario games. Well… I don’t like Sticker Star, the other two I flat out haven’t played, but that was more out of my own hesitation. I absolutely acknowledge Color Splash and Origami King are doing their own thing, and are good for what they are, rather than bad for what they aren’t.
I tried giving Sticker Star 2 chances. The first ended with me getting fed up with the vagueness of the combat statuses. The second… I didn’t even get to the games actual BS sections, but the game bugged out and had poor Mario plummeting under the geometry. And I hit a kill zone. I was just done at that point. I also tried reading the dialogue more carefully that time and was really annoyed with how… “off” it read to me. Can’t explain it.
I like all of these. I just like less the two first games bc i don't really like turn by turn rpgs in general (Except undertale, and mario& luigi). I still like these bc of the overworld things
this will only work if the next paper mario game is closer to the first 2, cause if its anything like the last 2, people will immediately be up in arms fighting again sadly. the thing about all the hostility that comes from the seperation of the fanbase is that it all stems from the previous style of paper mario's fanbase. i have never seen any fans of the new trilogy go out of there way to talk bad about the games (which truthfully would be funny cause theres very little to point out bad about the original trilogy) but you can go to every corner of youtube and see fans of the old heavily bashing the new.
the analogy is for the broken family is good but all the conflict is almost always brought from one side of the family's fanbase sadly
So… how does paper jam bros fit into this analogy?
Nice logo!
i acually like sticker star, and i will hold that statement forever
Nothing wrong with that! I do want to replay the game to try and pick out all the things I can find to like about it. Sticker Star was disappointing to me personally, but I know it has great music, some funny moments, and the feeling of peeling up stickers was admittedly very satisfying. What do you like about SS?
@@ThaneGaming well a lot of things, the puzzle solving was satisying trying to figure out what i had to do (ex: the king goomba tower and those giant fans), the visuals were goregeus, like the whole world was handmade by the devs,, each area being like a little diorama (and personally, i wanna give it a try myself remaking those areas irl) the music was all amazing (especally glooper bloopers boss theme) i liked the writing and humor and all the clever paper stuff, and even the combat system, with every attack being one time use, i had to conserve attacks and take out enemys as efficently as i can (kinda like resident evil), and the journey that me and mario went on was good, going to vast places like the yoshi spynx, the haunted house, the minecart and tram ride, the giant desert tower with the baseball stadium at the top hinting twords the boss's weakness, the poison forest with the winding river, the suprise quiz show, the spiders nest, i could go on for another half hour. it felt like a journey to all the corners of the mushroom kingdom. i quite liked a lot of SS for what it was, rather than what it wasnt. what helps was that i never played any other paper mario game beforehand unless you count M&L Paper Jam (Bros.) as a half paper mario game (that one was also my first M&L game) so i dont really have a bias twords the series greats. since then ive played the incredible origami king, and a bit of 64, i want to play color splash but dont have a wiiu, and i have a wii and N64 so i could play the original trilogy, and im looking foreward to getting TTYD one day. (maybe when i get a OLED switch by selling my other two switches), but overall, i really liked sticker star. and all of that is why.
Tbh i see more toxicity from ss, cs and tok side than the og three.
2:19 best girl of each game, yes
I only like the first two Paper Mario's but whatever
You can hate lasagna, but like spaghetti, there both diffrent things with the same ingredients
I want to preface my comment by saying I really enjoy and love your video, and I think you make some excellent points.
As a member of the "really enjoy storybook, hate the pop-up" group, I will say the reason we are always so upset at the other trilogy and sparking conflict with those whose first games were the pop-up and enjoyed them is because they are two separate things. The fact that Nintendo and Intelligent Systems let the franchise become this much of a contrast is a huge detriment to not only the series, but its fans.
And that's what the real core issue and problem is. The franchise has essentially become two separate entities, as you explained in this video. But I think a lot of the hate and backlash from Storybook fans stems from that core issue. It isn't necessarily an issue with the games, it's an issue with the pop up games being given the title of Paper Mario in the first place. If they wanted to make something completely different, they should have made it completely different, with a different name for a different franchise within Mario.
But now that we do have 2 trilogies, the way companies and franchises work is that a franchise should only have one identity. And if you want to change that identity, then fine, the identity changes with it. And us Storybook fans had a problem with that change, as we loved the Storybook format. So we complain every time a new one comes out. Not saying that's right. To be honest, with me, I've just given up on Storybook Paper Mario ever coming back. Even with TTYD remake coming out, I'm still not so sure.
And if the Storybook format does come back, then the franchise will STILL be divided, because once Nintendo makes that decision to go back, they most likely will stop making pop up book Paper Mario games entirely. Which, that reality I think is why the fanbase is so split and why the hatred for the pop up games exists so prevalently. You could have both, but that would require Nintendo and Intelligent Systems to decide to make both, further creating a split franchise, which would cause confusion for new fans, etc.
It's also why I'm skeptical this new remake is going to change anything for us Storybook fans. I'm going to buy it and love the heck out of this remake, and I know that, but I don't know nor do I think it will create a decent change in the way they make their Paper Mario games. And, if it did create that change, why I'm also not so sure I'd actually enjoy the fact that they made the change, knowing it's going to do the same thing to pop up fans that the pop up games initially did to us Storybook fans.
It is a whole freaking mess, and it's all because they decided to make Sticker Star and games like it for the Paper Mario series in the first place. It didn't have to be Paper Mario. It could have been titled anything else. But they titled it Paper Mario, and the fanbase will be forever split and doomed to fight because of decisions Nintendo and Intelligent Systems have made.
Ayo. I am making a paper mario