The types of battlefield roles 'Mechs are meant to fill | Battletech lore
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- Опубліковано 24 чер 2024
- Hello hello, today we dive discuss a topic one of SCIs patrons requested. The various combate roles and classifications of battlemech and what they're meant to do / what they're most effective at. So sit down and listen to why every single classification of battlement combat roles is a joke and means nothing. Also I roast you on the various playstyles on exhibit.
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0:00 Intro
2:10 Ambush
4:25 Brawlers
6:01 Juggernauts
7:35 missile boats
9:28 Scouts
11:13 Skirmishers
13:03 Snipers
15:07 Strikers
16:53 Ignore it all - Розваги
![PLANETARY DEFENSE | How to protect your world from invasion [FIXED]](/img/n.gif)
The key to making sense of mech roles is not to think of them as being part of mech design, but instead what role you've assigned to a machine during a mission.
With the exception of the Timberwolf; its assigned role is *winner.*
I'd argue the Tiberwolf's assignment is bankruptcy when you role around the corner and find yourself outnumbers 20 to one and them still having millions of cbill left on the table.
@@darkdragonsoul99 Yeah, you still need good doctrine... First and foremost might be, *don't walk into cities like an idiot.*
@@derekburge5294Everything is turning up Urbie. Granted it took 20, but still Urbie.
Some mechs are incredibly easy to classify, the way they're built makes their use clear and obvious. Like the Atlas, the kind of scout mechs.
Found the Steiner player...
@@230903shorty ComGuard. Pay your bills fucko. (Just love the Steiner memes)
As a light mech pilot in the earliest days of MWO, I loved missileboats. Mostly because they never knew what to do when they found my ECM-fitted Spider/Jenner popping their rear armor.
But my favorite fights of all were against other lights. It was either a complete slaughter or a frantic knife-fighting duel, where turning at the wrong time would often result in death.
it's a lot more fun when you're not actually dying when you lose, isn't it?
Who needs Stealth when you have Speed and terrain to block missiles. I just use my Locust to be a little backstabbing sometimes I switch up with a 5M and play scout/FO
i mean; you stick at several hundred meters away and torture the bastard with stealth armor, there's not much they'll do nowadays either.
but man... being the assault mech that just hit his narc on a stealth mech... it feels pretty great.
then again that is the sweetness of revenge for ya.
@@kirabodaniel-connell5283 And the point was "Fuck up once, kablam" But that's the point o piloting a light mech, eh?
@@AngelusNielson Exactly
Note on the Ambusher: These are primarily filled with mechs that have very high Alpha Strike potential, and are meant to ac as a sort of assassin, taking out or crippling the enemy's ace or similarly powerful mech that cannot be allowed to go into the upcoming fight at 100%
A role notably _not_ held by the Assassin battlemech.
The Catapult is actually more of a skirmisher than a missile boat. It doesn't carry enough ammo to be a dedicated missile boat.
As my favorite mech, I see the Catapult as a jumpy Archer. Not as tanky as most heavies, but it's ability to jump from one position to another makes it a scary enemy to fight even with an Assault mech(not much of them have jump jets and few can match the Catapult`s speed). I do admit the lesser ammo does make it a bit of a non-entity in longer battles. Thus I myself turn any catapult I have into srm boats(see Butterbee Catapult) anytime I can. A catapult with 4 srms instead of Lrm 15's is scarier to fight against.
So a missile boat would be the Striker and the Longbow? Which other ones?
@@Dracobyte Archer(oldest one) and the Longbow(oldest assault mech missile boat). You can also put in the Bombadier(too few ammo bins tho) and the Trebuchet(medium lrm boat that can COOK a pilot with the heat management).
The last one I'd put in here is the Valkyrie(Davion Light mech with an LRM10).
@@macrux152__8 There is another one called the Yeoman I think, ugly as sin I don't suggest you look it up.
Not when used in a medium lance. Can kill a few mediums fast.
The roles a battlemech can fulfill are often decided by: 'it's the only thing we have that can sorta do this, it'll have to do'.
The impetus behind development of the omnimech was partly to remove these 'make do' cases.
The battlefield roles are exactly that, descriptors that aid a commander in deciding play styles for that particular mech. These are roles that a commander will assign to a Mechwarrior to perform. It won't be the only battlefield role such a mech can perform, but for the sake of the immediate battle, that is what they will do.
I can imagine a Lance Commander, knowing his HBK only has 1 ton of AC/20 Ammo, will make the HBK Mechwarrior mother those rounds and use it as an Ambusher instead, particularly in a Double-Blind game in the City, where LOS is minimal. A freshly assigned Archer may take point as a Skirmisher, while the other damaged LRM carrying units in the lance will hang back and camp, MissileBoating all the way. Shadow Hawks, well, you can put them anywhere. Skirmishing through to Brawling - depending on how much you like the pilot.
Something that is coming down the line for tabletop Battletech is the Mechwarrior Aces AI Card System. They did an Open Beta testing for Aces for those involved in the Mercenaries Kick Starter.
Each Mech is given a small deck of cards responding to their battlefield role, they randomly draw an AI Card and move and fire as per the instructions on the card for that round. It was set up for Alpha Strke, but can be easily adapted for Classic Battletech.
It is an interesting system, and may transform the way the game is played on the tabletop. More people will want to be involved if it becomes more a PvE thing, than a PvP encounter. Less arguments. The Battlefield Role is critical in this Card System.
The SRM Catapult does in fact exist. As does my personal favorite, the K2, which has twin PPCs in place of the LRMs.
If it fits in those slots fucking do it lol
If this makes sense to you congradulations...... your a catapult pilot.
glad you mentioned the Catapult K2 cause recently I ran a variant in a table top game of Battletech based on the recent release of the Dragons Gambit dlc for MW5 the CPT-K2-S it drops the machine guns for AC2s and downgrades the Med Lasers to Small Lasers it's a nasty piece of work in MW5 and it's viable on the table top as well
As a person who is interested in making a Mech RPG... this video is helpful. Thank you Raging Canadian and Steve!
Ambushers are designed to fail... or are they designed to work in tightly packed urban environments? Of course mechanized infantry, probably, should have that role, with small vehicles equipped with their anti-armour weapons.
Brawler... sounds like what a civilian calls a tank, lol.
Juggernaut (Super Heavy / Assault)... are you sure that's a proper designation?
Missile Boats... they are important in warfare. Long-range, indirect, strikes are key to take out fixed/slow moving targets. They can also take out aircraft.
Scouts... $100 remote controlled drones are better. Ukraine changed my mind. :p
Skirmishers... high mobility, moderate damage... useful to flank enemy Missile Boats, take out scouts, and ambushers(?).
Snipers... line-of-sight energy weapons... okay.
Strikers... all offense, no defense. Okay.
----
I think the people who came up with these classifications had a somewhat adequate idea of what vehicles did in the army then crossed them with ships.
Right now (in various militiaries) there are:
Anti-missile platforms.
Anti-Air platforms.
Mobile missile platforms, as you said USA's HAMARS.
Artillery, multiple types. Though, the self-propelled type are usually conflated with "tanks" by people who don't know better.
Armoured Personnel Carriers.
Infantry Support Vehicles, an example would by USA's Bradley.
Armoured Fighting Vehicles, an example would be Russia's BMPT "Terminator".
Light Tanks, like the M10 Brooker from USA.
Main Battle Tanks, like Russia's T90, or UK's Challenger 2.
Each of these combat vehicles have a purpose, a role. I haven't even listed the other auxiliary vehicles!
The game developers _tried_ to copy the above list in their game(s) while sticking to mechs and I guess they failed by making them too customizable... and then other people not knowing a darn thing about military nomenclature just messed it up more, lol.
You know dragonkid11 and the lancer work yeah?
Instead of editing... I'll just continue.
Ambushers = Tank Destroyers
Brawler = Main Battle Tank (Medium Sized)
Juggernauts = Main Battle Tank (Large Sized)
Missile Boats = Missile Batteries
Scouts = ISV/Light Tank
Skirmishers = Light Tank / AFV
Snipers = AFV
Strikers = AFV
There is some flexibility as some vehicles can be outfitted with different weapon loadouts. An example would by the ISVs having "light" weapons to support infantry against other infantry... while others also are equipped with anti-armour missile weapons.
@@tomarmadiyer2698,
Never played them.
The thing to understand about ambushers is that firstly, they're so cheap you can afford to lose them compared to the much higher cost even at equal tonnage brawlers or other 'Mechs. Secondly, they are supposed to work together to surprise a target, quickly eliminate it, and then set up to do so again. (Preferably from another location the enemy won't be looking for you in.) In a double blind game, where you and your opponent have no clue where each other's forces are except for your own units reporting discovered locations, read one of your units has line of sight to an enemy unit, having a lance of even 3025 era Urbanmechs (particularly the Liao version with its AC20), a lance of SRM carriers, or even a pair of old school Demolishers suddenly pop out from buildings or alleys, unload on a single target and likely kill it unless it was a heavily armored heavy 'Mech or equal unit, then fade to the next ambush point while your strikers and brawlers bait enemies to them is an extremely effective tactic. In a regular game where you and your opponent know where all of each others' forces are? Ambushers are only usable once (using the hidden unit rules), and then they become a liability unless you can leverage their firepower with the terrain to keep them viable.
Edit: That said, yeah, a lot of the roles mentioned in the video are pointless. You can take a Juggernaut and without changing its weapons at all, it is an ambusher. (Nothing better than an enemy chasing your Griffin and walking into your waiting King Crab or Atlas.) Even the alternate roles of Calvary, Battleline, et al. aren't really good for defining 'Mech roles. A 'Mech's role is basically whatever you are using it as in any given situation. You need that Locust to play "tank" for a while and take some of the heat off another unit? Congrats, it is now a very fast but fragile "brawler".
The advantage urbies have is they try to fly away over the buildings. Just an Alpha Strike and run away, but they have low speed.
If an ambusher lives, they ambush again.
I think a fair assessment of juggernaut style play is start hitting at long range, and as you get closer, add more and more hatred until your objective is seized or slagged. Unstoppable, unending pain. Other examples include the nightstar and pillager. Mechs that start shooting at extreme range and get more terrifying as they get nearer
This is where “House Steiner Scout Lance” excels!
Great video BTW!
The meme is four Atlases. The reality is four Commandos.
A common replacement for the “brawler and skirmisher” terms is the trooper and cavalry roles.
Trooper mechs: they tend to be generalists, durable, and typically armed with a large energy weapon, decently large LRM rack, and maybe a medium laser or two. Most importantly they will mostly *have weapons for all common range brackets* example mechs are well known generalist mechs with punch, like the Orion, the griffin 1S, centurion, Thunderbolt, vindicator, and bushwhacker, and to an extent the Timberwolf…also the shadowhawk somehow, but the shadowhawk is the Honda civic of medium mechs, and mostly a trainer. I’d save the brawler role for something like an enforcer or blackjack.
The cavalry mech: it is best described using the famous 5/8 mechs seen across the field pre 3049, the wolverine, Kintaro, ostroc, Ostsol, scorpion, and the QuickDraw kings counts, if slightly vague. Typically they will move relatively rapidly across the field, and mostly be able to effectively flank heavier assets, though their weaponry most often prioritizes medium and close range combat, while trying to flank and destroy heavier assets. They *tend to have a set of decent medium and close range weapons and remain relatively mobile*
Trying to assign a role to a Clanmech is about as effective as having a blind man pick teamates for a game of basketball during school recess. Also the Hunchback will always have a role of Big Gun on Legs in my heart. Thanks for the video.
ah the Hunchback HBK-4G simple reliable and hard hitting every time I've run a Hunchback in TT Battletech it's never let me down 👍
Yeah these roles really mean nothing because when Comstar made them and assigned mechs to them, they did so arbitrarily. Personally I think of 3 main roles and 3 specialist roles when building a lance.
The 3 main roles are Battleline, Ranged, and Cavalry. Battleline is designed to take hits and aggro the enemy protecting your squishier mechs. Ranged is a standard DPS and does most of the damage. Finally Cavalry will flank the enemy and punish them for improper positioning.
The 3 specialist roles are Linebreaker, Scout, and Bodyguard. Linebreaker has one job, destroy the enemy Battleline.
Linebreaker mechs have more armor and weapons than Battleline mechs, but are too slow. They almost always take way too much damage acting as a drain to throw your C-Bills into. One reason to use Linebreakers is that the enemy HAS to respond to them or be destroyed. This usually means the enemy focuses all their attention onto the Linebreaker allowing your other mechs free reign to tear them apart.
Scouts are self explanatory, with only speed going for them they cannot take hits or do meaningful damage. It is difficult to justify using any scouts when your company is firmly established, because Skirmishers can do the job well enough and contribute to the fight. At that stage of a campaign Scouts are only useful in large raids or battles consisting of 12 mechs or more.
Finally Bodyguards are the read-headed stepchildren of the bunch. With a mix of close and long range weapons they can contribute at all ranges, but with minimal impact. Their speed is faster than Battleline and Ranged mechs, but too slow to keep up with Cavalry or Scout mechs. However they are useful as the "glue" that holds your lance together by firing with Ranged, tanking with the Battleline, and intercepting Cavalry.
I forgot to mention Hybrid mechs. Some mechs are able to fill multiple roles at once. One example is the Catapult which is a Ranged/Cavalry Hybrid. Using it's long range missiles or PPCs to do damage at long range and using Jumpjets to quickly move to hit the enemy in the rear.
Agreed, I made my own roles for when I compiled various mechs in a spreadsheet. Two new roles were raider mechs and marauder/predatot mechs.
The former is the scout mechs that carry more firepower than you expect. The latter are the marauder and timber wold, they pick a mech and absolutely devour it at medium or long range.
Later when I made my merc faction I simplified, as such cavalier and chasseur mechs. Based on the battle tank and cruiser tanks of Britain; the former are the troopers and fire support the latter are scouts and raiding mechs.
Line, Cavalry and Push for me. 64.8 kph are line, advance together and exploit openings. Cavalry are the fast movers, flankers and scouts. Create openings, pull attention away by forcing the opponent to divert forces. Push? Fun times. The big boys that just advance and can shoot at pretty much any range, getting progressively more dangerous as they close the distance. Slow mediums and heavies tend to be line, lights and fast mediums cavalry and slower heavies and assaults being push. There are exceptions as you can put a Banshee or Victor in the line mechs but I tend to go by speed brackets so the lances can keep up with each other.
Hey who you calling Red-Headed Step-Child? among Bodyguard mechs the Hunchback reigns Supreme it's the ultimate FAFO package come get Some!
@brothersgt.grauwolff6716 that's funny because most Hunchback pilots I've seen act like Likebreakers.
Charging from the front, unloading everything, maybe killing the Assault Mech they were targeting, then dying.
So what I'm hearing is my Catapult and tag mech combo would make you rage quite 😁
I personally like loading up catapults with SRMs and brawling with them. Throw in an XL engine and plenty of ammo and you live fast, die fast, and hit like the fist of an angry god.
@@VallornDeathblade that works. I also like the twin PPC variant the DCMS came up with too.
@@VallornDeathbladeThat sounds like a good way to die to an ammo explosion... I hope you're swapping the torso lasers with something a bit more angry.
A trick about the classification system is that it isn't meant to just describe a mech and be done. Those roles feed into lance/star/level II compositions. A Battle Lance has certain types of mechs that fill out the lance. Same for cavalry and fire support stars.
I will say the combat roles are often more about loadout than Chassis. Some Chassis lean towards one role or another because that was the original intent but then the variants mix it up. Each variant for a Chassis can easily fulfill a different combat role.
As I mentioned elsewhere, it's easier to look at it from a speed perspective. IS and 64.8 kph? Line mech. Faster? Cavalry variant. Slower? Push mechs. Couple of things, not "ackshually", just FYI. You don't need homebrew rules to build any mech, it's baked in (well according to my 1990 rules it is). It's more campaign limitations that cause mechs to be limited to specific variants. Also the Catapult is the original omni mech (before the Clans made them cool) as you can put anything in the arm pods. Kurita fielded the K2 which replaces the LRM launchers with PPCs for example. There's another variant that ran AC2s as well as the LRMS, yet another that's SRM based. Hell, one of the MWO ones is pure energy (Jester, love that thing!)
I will agree that indirect LRM fire is annoying as hell but direct fire is where they shine, get closer and hit with more of them. More fun for you that way, less for the person on the receiving end. I would also strongly recommend always having a light, fast element for arty pillaging. You want to hide behind a hill? Fine, I'll under run your missiles and rip you a new one before your backup gets there then run away giggling :D
Okay, I gotta say, a centurion firing HE shells from an AC/20 to compete with an LRM boat sounds amazing. Actual gigachad showing the catapults how you really pour salt in the wound. No death by a thousand missiles, just a funny bullet.
The classifications and combat doctrine of the Battletech universe feel like they were created by people who had heard about war one time from a friend.
Many Mad Cat configs are Juggernauts more than anything else, with others being either brawlers or snipers.
Centurions are mostly brawlers, but some might be snipers or skirmishers.
Most Griffins are snipers or skirmishers.
Most of the roles have at least one alternate label, often used for variable weights or to add nuance to an almost-but-not-quite correct basic category. An an example, cavalry is one of the most common alternate labels for skirmisher, with flanker being another.
thank you for these videos. It makes my week when a new one comes out. Please keep it up great work.
When I made my merc faction I simplified considerably, as such Cavalier and Chasseur mechs. Based on the battle tank and cruiser tanks of Britain; the former are the troopers and fire support the latter are scouts and raiding mechs.
MRM Longbow, as many missile tubes as you can have on anything that moves. You know you love the idea SCI.
Skirmisher just means to be able to disengage at will. Wolverine and Grasshopper are fast for their weight class.
It’s funny you say the Timberwolf looks like a catapult. In lore, when they were first experienced targeting computers would cycle between marauder (MAD) and Catapult (CAT) based upon the visual profile, leading to the inner sphere designation MADCAT
Thank you for another great video!
My favorite roles to play as (even though they don't matter. Especially since it seems the rulebook for the roles seems flawed in the first place).... I had a bit too much fun having a nostalgia trip while trying to understand these categories once and for all so I got carried away with typing. Woops!:
#1 Skirmisher: Took me a while to understand this one like Brawler and I'm still not 100% sure about it. However the example mechs from the rulebook are Hermes II, Grasshopper, and Uziel. They all have jumpjets for mobility, decent/good armor, stay rather cool with their loadout and they all have 1 weapon for each range that they use more weapons as they get closer, especially the Uziel with 5 different weapon ranges. Basically the jack of all trades.
In contrast to the other groups: Utility - Scout; Short range - Striker, ambush; Medium/long Range - "Brawler"; Long Range - Sniper; Indirect/extreme range - Missile boats
I will always love boating weapons, however lately I've been getting shoved into mechs I normally wouldn't pilot because I'm filling whatever role the lance needs when my friends play MechWarrior 5 with me. So I've been learning to love the generalist mechs. Still going to want to slap on jumpjets and at least one LRM on everything for sure. Grasshopper, Highlander, Thunderbolt SE variants, Crusader 3L/5M all come close to what I want but are just a tiny bit away.
#2 Missile boats: Purely casually though, which is most of the time. I've played a lot of shooters, but it's rare to find something that behaves the way that LRMs do in MechWarrior as they rain down on enemies. That said, I thoroughly blame the first mission for clan wolf in MechWarrior 2, and being able to use a Mad Dog in it. Just going around deleting the mechs you see with the absurd amount of missiles you have. Then later on in MechWarrior Online, it was love at first sight with the Catapult. Back when the game was newish, I loved to absolutely taunt the enemy's front lines by jumpjetting and shooting missiles when 250-500 range, they'd see missile boat, come try to kill the foolish Missile boat. Only to run into the rest of my team, while I use them to confuse the enemy for which target to shoot, as I rain missiles over my allies onto the enemy.
MechWarrior 5 kinda dampened my mood for LRMs boats, because the more damage you or your allies take, the more of a repair bill you are going to have. LRMs do a lot of damage, but it's not concentrated, so it's harder to kill things before it kills your lancemates. So when playing with friends I usually use more direct fire methods to keep them alive, and I really love seeing missiles rain down on an enemy when I'm on the frontlines because they all love the archer.
Now, I don't count SRM boats as missile boats, since they are direct fire like all other weapons in the game. That said, I've had plenty of fun with the Splatcat and Splat Dog in MWO. Especially when Splatcat was my first mech, and I wanted to go fast. So I started using large XL engines sooner than most people, which means I got to wreck people. Especially since it was 8v8, I could ambush people, especially because jumpjets help me take paths other mechs couldn't take.
#3 Sniper: First mech I piloted and was my first favorite was the Rifleman IIC in MechWarrior 2 because of those big barrels, and I loved using the large lasers. Got addicted to the feeling of making a game out of how fast I can kill an enemy before they can attack, and the closer they get the more panicked I'd be since they could start shooting at any moment and I need to not take any damage.
Then the Mad Dog came around and got me addicted to missiles. Though even though missiles would distract me from snipers, I've always loved them. I definitely love watching my allies use them. In MechWarrior 5 one of my friends is addicted to 4 large lasers to instantly kill things, and it's hilarious watching mechs die so fast when I had the AI use 2 of his mechs at the same time. Later on I'd start liking Marik a bunch in MW5, so it eventually led me to having 4 Awesomes and it amused me how much it steamrolls everything. I used to hate how the Awesome looked, but now I absolutely love the awesome, and it might be a go-to mech for me. I'm so used to playing mechs that can overheat like nothing else since heat sinks are usually the first thing I remove to make room, I was not expecting 3 PPCs to stay so cool on an 80 ton mech.
#4 Juggernaught: I mean, the MechWarrior series really does incentivize you to build mechs this way, especially towards the end of the games where you're swarmed. Funny how the description on sarna specifically says short range focus, which the Dire Wolf is not, and that just sounds absolutely wrong to not call the Dire Wolf a Juggernaught since it's such a walking death machine. In MW5 Co-op I do not get to be the Juggernaught often because of tonnage restrictions since someone else wants to be the Juggernaught, and everyone else generally wants to be on the heavier side for more weapons. Playing with AI I feel like I have to be the Juggernuaght or else the AI will take too much damage, so it gets a bit tiring. Still, I'll never get old shooting off half a mech in a single shot with the King Crab's claws. Or using the Banshee in YAML to just chop a mech in half because of that melee bonus + assault melee + axe for ludicrous damage.
#5 Striker: Playing the Jenner In MWO was incredibly fun. Since all damage is magnetized to your massive CT hitbox, you'll die fast, even for light standards. However, the overwhelming speed and firepower makes it worth it. It's like you're playing a mental game with the opponent where the odds are in your favor, but you have to win those odds multiple times, but if you fail once or twice you are just dead. Again, I feel like I have to be in try-hard mode for a casual game, sooo this limits how often I player strikers.
#6 Brawler: So I looked at the definition multiple times and it confused me. Then I saw that the example mechs used from the rulebook were Dragon and Enforcer and it all made sense. It's more of a using speed to stay at the preferred long range. I get what they were going for when they called it a brawler, but generally brawler in most games is something that wanted to get in close to fight. I'd had fun using a dragon, but it really feels like you're sacrificing too much to use that autocannon, and it's really hard to use that consistently when you're fighting long distances while running fast. I would love this playstyle a lot more if the maps were bigger in all the Mechwarrior games, and in battletech. I know one of my friends absolutely loves the PPCicada. So it is a niche and I don't see as many mechs doing that style, but it is high effort low reward.
Enforcer is more my speed for using long range weapons, and it has jumpjets, but I figured the enforcer fits the sniper role more since it's slow and has 2 hard hitting long range weapons, but I guess jumpjets makes it a brawler according to that rulebook because jumpjets are mobility.
#7 Scout: To be fair, majority of mech games just have you absolutely mowing through everything. The only time I could be a true scout was in MWO (maybe MW5 too if the Raven and Narc weren't so hard to get), particularly back when it was 8v8 so it was easier to not be seen by wandering eyes. Basically it's always so tense trying to keep track of the enemy, and making sure they never know where you are or else you are dead. But when you get that tag or narc on an enemy and just see all the missile boats on your team melt as the enemy panics as they desperately look for cover, it's just so perfect.... Also the infiltration mission type added in a DLC for MW5 felt like a proper scouting mode, and it's kind of addicting skirting the line to spot something, but in the process risk dying and/or have a huge repair bill when the alarms go off. Only reason why scouting isn't higher is that I usually play MechWarrior casually, and scouting is one of the more tense things since you're trading away your armor and firepower to be able to be the eyes for something much deadlier. It's also really rare to be able to scout because you're relying on someone else to do something. and if they don't do the thing, it's the most agonizing thing ever.
#8 Ambush: That description of an ambusher just makes it sound really bad. Why not just use a Juggernaught at that point? I guess for c-bills/battle value I guess. That said, I never played MWO when Rocket Launchers were added in, but I know for certain I would definitely be one of those guys that would use it to delete a high priority target because it's funny. Though even that kind of cheese would get old after a few rounds.
I'm an E-war guy. Or artillery. Either way, I'd prefer if someone else is getting shot because that means I spend fewer c-bills when it's all over.
the best MW 4 general mech IMO is the Uziel with some clam tech upgrades. Clan ppc, lbx 10, maybe the srm6, but I drop that for ammo or heat sinks. speed, jump, snipe with ppc, brawl with lbx(MW 4 was only shotgun version, and due to the rules in 4) you could do light guass paired if you really strip parts downYou can go brawler, striker, or sniper depending on loadout.
it was probably my fav mech. I'd like to slap on 2 flamers on desert maps as well.
The Warhammer 7K has been my favorite Heavy for a while. It has 2 ER PPCs like a sniper, 4/6 movement and 13.5 tons of armor, plus 2 Medium Lasers, 2 small pulse lasers, and 2 streak srms for up close (Brawler, maybe Juggernaut). Also a TAG for reasons designation.
Great video, as usual. One way to differentiate your unit is how it gets into position. If you have to walk your mech into firing position you're a brawler/trooper. If you can jump you r mech into position you're a striker/cavalry.
How can you not love the Catapult and its many variants 😆
I see Scouts and Strikers as close cousins. Both are fast mechs for their tonnage, and the only real difference between them is that the Scout devotes tonnage to recon equipment while the Striker takes that same tonnage and devotes it to firepower.
Similarly, Snipers and LRM-boats are both fire support with a specialization in either hole punching weapons (Snipers) or crit-seeking weapons (LRM boats).
SRM boats don't fulfill the same fire support role as LRM boats because they do best close up on the front line. Thus, SRM boats would fall under some other role depending on how the rest of the mech is kitted out (which can be damn near any other role AFAICT).
Thus a "missile boat" is a more a description of how a mech is armed, not it's intended battlefield role. Those are two different things even if they're often related.
Sounds like someone needs to fit some AMS. *Laughs in Catapult*
13:51 - *laughs in cicada with stealth armor that I somehow crammed a gauss rifle into.
Sci: "Different Battlemechs can fit into different roles depending on how you squint at them."
Me: Squints intensely at the L.A.M.
Heyy!
You mentioned my favorite Catapult(Butterbee). And yes, the Catapult with 4 srm6's and 2 ER Small Lazers is a BEAST in the field.
Plus you can fool the enemy into thinking you'll plink at long range. Then charge and shoot anyone within the range of those 4 srm6's.
It's my characters mech in BEX battletech.
I would argue that there's a couple of other, unofficial roles:
Bodyguards: A fairly nebulous category, but it generally refers to a medium mech (sometimes a heavy) that trades speed for armor and/or firepower and sticks with heavier or more fragile units to protect them from being flanked by lights and mediums. This is where you'd put stuff like a Hunchback , Centurion, or Grasshopper.
Scout Hunter: Unlike bodyguards, which stick close to the heavier units to protect them, these are mechs specifically made to pursue and kill lighter mechs. There's a bit of overlap with strikers here but it's a little more specific because they're usually fast mediums but sometimes light mechs (and some REALLY fast heavies) can fill this role. In more advanced eras they'll often have lots of stuff like Streak SRMs, pulse lasers, and LB-X autocannons with cluster shot that make it harder for light mechs and vehicles to evade them. Two of the archetypical mechs from this category would be the Phoenix Hawk and the Wolfhound. The Grasshopper's also often cited as an example but imho it's a not quite fast enough for that role.
Trooper Mechs: These are the swiss army knives of battlemechs, they have a little bit of everything and generally do it all decently but don't excel at most of them (it'll do some better than others). They also tend to have a top speed between 64 and 86 km/h (4/6 or 5/8) and decent to good armor. You tended to see more of these during the Succession Wars due to technological and industrial decline. Mechs that fall into this category include (but aren't limited to) the Panther, Vindicator, Centurion, the HBK-4N variant of the Hunchback, Shadow Hawk, Wolverine, Dragon/Grand Dragon, Thunderbolt, Warhammer, and Zeus.
Melee Mechs: These are machines made specifically to hit enemies physically, either with a melee weapon or their own body. Many of these in later eras have triple-strength myomer, letting them move faster and hit harder while running hot. The former category includes mechs like the Hatchetman, Axman, Nodachi, and Ti Ts'ang. The latter include mechs like the Banshee (this was its intended role as designed) and especially the Charger. The Clans generally don't like these because melee combat violates Zellbrigen, but they've decided that Death From Above attacks don't count. For this reason the Clans have designed mechs with purpose-designed talons on their feet for such attacks like the Gyrfalcon...do I even need to tell you that Clan Jade Falcon tends to build most of these?
Zombie Mech: These are battlemechs that are built so that they can keep fighting even if you've shot a good chunk of them to pieces, in extreme cases to the point of just being a center torso, legs, and a head. These mechs have a standard or compact engine and tend to fill their torsos with energy weapons (many of them use energy weapons exclusively) and redundant systems like heat sinks and electronic warfare equipment to soak up critical hits. They might also make use of things like small cockpits and compact gyros to free up more space in the head and center torso for weapons, or a heavy duty gyro to increase survivability. The Kingfisher (except for Configuration B, which has AMS ammo in the center torso for some reason) and Archangel (especially the Invictus configuration) are a couple of the best examples - both of them are omnimechs, incidentally, and the Great Turtle is what you get when you take the idea to its logical conclusion. For lower-tech mechs, the base variant of the Grasshopper might be a good example with its center torso-mounted large laser.
The classic meme is the "Steiner Scout Lance"...which consists of four Atlases. Gotta love the Lyrans.
Bro the battlefront load in brings back memories...
One of the things people forget is how complex a mech actually is. Many can operate in Vacuum in space or underwater under pressure. And they need to have powerful computers that can make calculations etc. And the reason they are mech shaped is cause they use the future tech of Mymer bundles that need the power of a small reactor to make work. But using a reactor like that means you have a lot of extra power, which can power Lasers and PPCs. And one of these reactors will be good for like 100 years before needing its fuel rods swapped etc. The fact that they work in any environment including space. Is why they actually have a purpose in this game. Its one of the few settings to actually make why they use MECHS make sense. They are expensive and complex, but they can do so many jobs, environments and roles in combat, that they make sense.
I am so sorry Sci. Because when you described the missile boat my first thought was; "That sounds like an excellent idea!" Long range combined with smart weapons is the primary method of American military power at present and for the foreseeable future, with which path I am heartily in agreement.
*laughing in lurm rain*
My favorite brawler build is to slap a long tom onto a king crab and fire it in point blank melee combat 😊
Generally manouver warfare will see three roles develop. Battleline, meant to hold territory and stop the enemy from moving, fires, meant to actually do damage at long range without the threat of reprisal, and manouver, meant to exploit a pinned enemy and fuck up their fires and logistics elements.
You will usually see two more develop, breakthrough, and raider, but theye are not essential parts of manouver tactics.
So Control , DPS , Support in gamer terms
@@LizLizzyBeth Sort of but not quiet. Support would be the logistical tail, an obvious necessity of any military operation, but not a combat arm itself. The RPG trifecta has no good equivalent to manouver arms, because there is little manouvering going on in these abstractions of combat.
A role is a state of mind... Catapult is a skirmisher, as a LRM boat it's outclassed by lighter mechs UNLESS you refit it with clan LRM and stuff it with probes, AECM and alot of ammo and speed.
I have so much more room for missiles if I remove my C1's jump jets lol
@@calebmcnabb3668 I normally get a k2k and stick a clan xxl 400 engine in it with a masc and supercharger then tackle everything in melee combat... And hardened armor on everything but legs and arms so I don't get a movement penalty or critical hits. Then I give it corrosive heat sinks which are better than double so it can fire its clan pcc and heavy lasers over and over... It's a menace and takes a real grind to make.
I don't think I've ever been so greatly complemented in one sentence and in the next be so brutally insulted and then complimented again in my life😂
I often play as juggenaut but also like flanking, imagine face of lone catapult when fafnir pops at its flank with double ac 20
Bit niche, but Hollander is as ambusher mech as it gets. And it does it very very well.
As someone who played Gundam Battle Operation 2 the roles make sense.
Is the Urbanmech a raid?
@@Lezardstherapist no it's support.
@@barrybend7189 You know, that's fair.
Urbie is too slow for Maneuver Armor.
Well you see. The designer made the brilliant decision to put a fist on my mech. There for it is for brawling!
Sir, you are in a Commando.
Minor detail!
There is one type you did miss there. That being the “Trooper”
Trooper types being the sort where they are optimal at mid range with their primary weapon being in an arm that has an extended reach (This excludes mechs like the Rifleman and Blackjack). They also are meant to either play a Bodyguard role in the Lance or stand at the forefront of the line.
Think mechs like the Panther, Centurion-A, Black Knight (original configuration)
The best way to categorize Battle Mechs, IMO is...Light=Recon, Medium=Support for Recon and/or Flankers for Heavies, Heavy=Face breakers, Assault=Making things dead.
7:35 Sounds like an AMS problems :P
Back when MWO launched a decade ago I was in an Aussie MWO clan who had a ridged teamwork combat structure where half our team was basically LRM racks and I was the scout who spotted and painted targets for their LRM boats. Our strategy was entirely me running up behind enemy LRM boats or their assaults, painting the cockpit with a targeting laser then our team would dump their LRMs into the heads of the opponent teams one shotting Atlases and Awesomes. Solo players in TEAM GAMES sooked about this to PGI so heavily that PGI nerfed LRMs so they'd scatter hit instead of all homing in on the painted location by a tag beacon or a laser. As a result my clan quit the game because they felt the game was no longer about teamwork, but now about whales using their premium currency to build F-off OP alpha strikers to run around and clown on new players with one shot builds, which is exactly what MWO has been for the past decade because that is what the MW4 community wanted out of the game when they migrated over to it and they're the whales keeping PGI's lights on so PGI only listens to them
putting Warheads on Foreheads 😂
At the very end of the video when you were talking about Strikers, and the Jenner came up... I almost vomited in rage. Not because of what YOU said, oh no. You were correct. It was because of my experience playing MWO. You see, in MWO light mechs are thrown into the mix against Assault mechs, and expected to be competitive not because of terrain, firepower, or numbers, but because you cannot HIT them. Listen to the tale of the Spider Armageddon, and weep my brother: When the Spider was released in MWO, it wasn't a success because of it's actual statistics. A single solid hit would destroy it. It was absolutely terrifying because it's movement speed and borked hitboxes caused it to be nearly impervious to registering damage. I shit you not, AC20 rounds would pass through it's torso without doing a point of damage. And lasers were rendered useless, because they did damage over time on target, so it was literally immune to DOT laser weapons. The only way to kill a Spider was to wear it down with an entire lance of assault mechs focusing it's legs until enough random tick damage finally registered and wore off the mere few tons of armor on it's legs and it finally lost one, allowing the mechs shooting at it to finally start hitting it after it slowed down enough. It was disgusting. And Piranha games actually embraced this bullshit, and actively used HSR problems and lag to make light mechs viable instead of delivering the role warfare to make them relevant that they initially promised. So on to the Jenner being a "Striker" - it ended up being one of the most broken mechs in MWO, able to take down an Atlas in seconds and be practically un-hittable. Then the jokers who piloted them would act all superior and dick-wave about how skilled they were with their light mechs taking down assault mechs, when the reality was the game's hit registration was broken.
I distinctly remember that with the Arctic cheetah too
10 minutes ago? How convenient
Urbanmech with an AC/20? Perhaps. But I fear the Urbie with an artillery piece firing shaped charges.
I like to make very specialized lances/stars. Long Tom mounted mechs for destruction missions. ECM/TAG/NARC fast mech paired with Arrow IV lance mates. Truly evil type stuff.
A video about making lore friendly lances for each faction (according to their shtick / memes) would be cool
Interestingly - and apropos your thesis in this video - Morgan Kell, whose plot armor is the thickest in all of the Inner Sphere, tended to use an _Archer_ (a Heavy missile boat) in pretty much any damn role he wanted to, and there was nothing anyone could do to stop him. I guess this is what happens when you are almost impossible to hit (seriously, they gave him _in the official rules_ a semi-unique Phantom Mech perk which renders him invisible to mech sensors, no joke).
While tanks and missile trucks make great ambushers (because they're cheap), you're right about ambush Mechs. A Mech stripped to its frame and engine would still cost WAY too much to be wasted as an ambusher. The only exception to this would be the (extremely rare) instance where you retrofit non-combat Mechs with weapons designed to fire once.
The mech that could do about anything like the Timberwolf should have a Champion classification
i tend to another classification ... scout brawler( good survivability good heat management usabele spead) missileboat duell( where i wouldput things like timberwolf warhammer marauder ) cavalery (fast jumping with a decent punsh) juggernaut well as is
I treat the Timberwolf as a Gauss sniper with a full rack of CMRM and a couple of ERML.
Missile rats live longest, you can be disposable meat all ya want.
As a Marauder Main in any Mechwarrior/Battletech: thank you.
ASN-21 ultimate striker in MW5 modded. Early game build: 4xSRM2, 2xML, 5/8/5 movement. Late game 4xSRM 4, 2xML, 7/11/7 movement. GRF-2N is my second fav i use in the more dangerous end game missions.
Back was here
The answer to the Timberwolf question is- The Timberwolf is whatever it wants to be.
Battlemechs are flexible. That's why there popular over tanks.
i have done experiments almost exclusively in MW5 using an urbanmech to try and better flush out these roles. I did succeed in making essentially all of these roles. However this does further prove the point roles are bullshit and a good pilot can use any much for just about any role. Thank you, noble trashcan. this is the only thing your good for other than target practice.
As an LRM boat driver, you're forgetting just how much we depend on other mechs finding us targets to do our job. And how underappreciated we are.
Also forgetting just how difficult it is to provide the right amount of support fire in the right place and right time. Do I save the light scout who's getting chased down by a Phoenix Hawk, but is doing key recon for the team? Or do I try to assist the Atlas that's getting flanked by the pair of heavies because he got caught out of position?
Either way, we're doing the 'wrong thing', and we will get yelled at after the match because we "Weren't being team players" and "Didn't support the team at all", despite the fact that some of the team is charging forward with no communication with the the rest of the team and expecting the rest of us to be telepathic.
Self-propelled howitzers can be best battlefield roles for mechanized walker in real world
Scout mechs, because 20 tons of loud machinery is very stealthy compared to a guy with binoculars and a radio
Yea I always hated the whole scout designation for a mech. When you have so many other ways to scout that is fit for the role. I would say harasser or maybe assassin would be a better name for them.
Think there is a catagory of true multi role mechs like timberwolf, it can legitimately cover all rangers rather well.
I tend to build my lances as jugs just so i stop loosing valuable weaps (lv 4-5) and generally id rather replace armor then limbs mechs and weapons. Also ANH-1X w/4 heavy rifles and 6 S lasers is a nasty sniper jug you will die at range or close and get your face melted an atlas 7D found that out the hard way.
MWO is the best place for brawler catapults, 6 srm6s with jump jets and enough ammo to sandblast an assault lance.
I guess I think of mech roles a little differently, more based on tonnage; with the cavet that I am mostly referring to tabletop (or VGs that mimic tabletop) and not the FPS version of Battletech games and not Clanner tech. Clanner tech breaks the game as it was designed.
Light mechs scout ahead, find the enemy. In combat, their best role is flanking or targeting infantry and vehicles.
Medium mechs hunt and kill light mechs, they are anti-flankers and can also help fix the enemy the scouts have found.
Heavy mechs engage and destroy mechs their size and smaller and provide fire support.
Assault mechs take territory and reduce defensive positions. The have firepower to destroy heavy mechs.
There are mechs that can't fit into these roles and I consider them bad designs. There are some that can flex into a higher weight class (Hunchbacks, Wolfhounds, Orions) but it's rare for a mech to work well in a lower weight class role, due to the design rules and how engines and jump jets are costed.
So a madcat MK2 with 4 Lrm 15 with Artemis. A targeting computer and 4 medium pulse lasers would give you nightmares 🤔
I recall trying a splatapult (6 srm-6) in MWO... the on paper numbers are silly, but in practice the enormous spread you get if you aren't so close as to be doing extra damage with the box-opener you're holding out the window means you are missing half or more of it aimed at anything less than the broad-side of an atlas, and are probably about to get slapped even by urbies for heat-reasons...
Also if I recall correctly, there was a battle somewhere in the lore where splatapults were used... all such mechs were lost, but not before collapsing the underground structure the battle took place in.
I want the funny 60 MGs catapult
ATLAS scout mechs are the bread and butter of the Lyrans.
My friend and I are putting together a hybrid RPG/TTG campaign. My character has a hyper-custom Timby. It is literally all sniping. 2x ER PPCs, 2x PPC Capacitors, a Void Signature System, and enough Clan double heat sinks to reverse global warming. Oh, and a Small Pulse Laser, because bird shit is dishonorable. She actually sacrifices her missile pods for all that, replacing them with a rangefinder suite to compensate for not being able to mount a targeting computer. Her whole existence is dedicated to sitting in the back, effectively invisible, and deleting anything that gets with range.
Your comment on missile boat mechs perfectly illustrates the phrase “Artillery is King of the Battlefield.” Why bother sending a Lance to deal with a Juggernaut when you can sandpaper it to death and sacrifice mostly just missile ammo?
The Urbie isn't supposed to be a mech for everyday pilots but more for planetary garrisons who had a couple of months of training to keep their cities safe. So not something you normally see a decent mercenary group or active house military using. Having said that Urbies are great for what they are a cheap way to field a mech sized threat for an attacker. Now the poor shlub in the Urbie in those situations is likely to be priority target number one but if he survives maybe he can get elevated to something better. Besides for the price a planet can field several over a single medium mech. Gaining the the fire power of several medium mechs if not the staying power. So in terms of battle logistics you are likely getting the better end of the stick against a invading opponent.
Guess I am a Sniper, as my favourite is the Warhammer. Though I did have a Kurita Officer in a years long TT campaign who spent most of his career (up to Sho-sa IIRC) in a Jenner.
The game of mechwarrior is a tactical game. The designations are more strategic in nature.
Little late but what the heck.
Think about this one:
The Marauder MAD-3R is officially considered a sniper.
The Marauder MAD-3D is officially considered a BRAWLER.
Averaged out over sets of 2 turns BOTH mechs can do 20 damage at long range without overheating.
Why does the role change matter? The MAD-3R can assume the sniper role to fill the requirements
of a command lance under formation rules.
The MAD-3D can NOT fill that required roll.
Since the MAD-3D was introduced it was the top pick for a Command Lance leader by many players.
Also the Catapult K-2 (The 2XPPC variant) is officially a sniper while the Warhammer WHM-6D is
officially a brawler. The only difference weapon wise is the Cat has 2 MGs where the Whammy has 2 small lasers.
These roles matter when Alpha Strike formation rules are used.
mechs are calvary,cavlvary acts as scouts ,flankers, and mass for a push thru the frontline
Steiner scout squad. Not detected and not reported are functionally the same.
Quickdraw is a fire support mech, change my mind
Thats the fun thing about Battletech, the mech you initially start out with (may it be in a house military, family heirloom, lost tech cache) isn't always going to be the king of the battlefield!
Yeah timmy down the street was gifted a Battlemaster for his birthday, and all your dad could get you was a Vulcan, but hey! atleast you're better at mowing down those pesky infantry! now go out there and commit your war crimes new Vulcan pilot!
and also the mech classification thing just doesn't work out anymore esp when they built out more variants for each of the mechs.
My favorite scout is the Charger.
What?! No Cavalry category? Thats where I'd throw stuff with decent to good firepower coupled with maneuverability, like the aforementioned Timber Wolf.
Bodyguard is another role I'd include, stuff that can support its teammates on the way in but can intercept and deal with the backstabby little buggers.
...and then theres the customs that my OCD makes....the horrors that should never see a tabletop. 🤫🤐
The Timber Wolf is the MBT of mechs
I don't know what the actual rules say, but if you were to say to me "brawler mech," I would think something that's meant to get up close and personal, like a Hatchetman or a Charger or whatever.
Has anyone tried partnering a urban mech with 1-3 missile boats
The urban keeps out of sight until some light mechs go after the missile boats
Then the urbies take out the light mechs
So Mechs are more like special operations operators for mechanized forces they have a mission and they pick the best gear for the mission needs, where each soldier can probably do everyone else's job decently and within reason, were things like tanks and other non mech forces are very days Forces were they least customized with few exceptions, as it not required, it something like that
That is not how I run my Battletech lance. They are all in heavy mechs, their purpose is to move towards the enemy while firing until they can kick them down.