Morning Laurence , After watching your Demaree vertical split method using National deeps and 12x14 brood boxes, I am so glad I watched your video on why you regret switching 12x14 system! I really appreciate your honesty and telling everyone about your experience. I can confidently rule out buying the 12x14 reduced boxes I’ve seen on Abelo site and instead stick to the 12 frame poly hive system and buy a number of brood boxes to help do your Demaree vertical split method you demonstrated last video. Thanks George D and Laurence E 🤩
Re you point about the second 14x12 frames - I've always found the seconds readily avaliable in the sales? Thornes and Maisemore always have them in although they are approx £38-40 vs the deeps around £28-£30. I use deep unwired foundation as oversized starter strips which works out significantly cheaper than the 14x12 foundation and allows the bees to build drone comb below if they wish. I do prefer 14x12 to deeps however I do make up deep nucs so I can definitely see why you'd prefer a double brood system in that regard.
I think trying to get them in larger quants in an issue and the price difference versus national is substantial. I tried this for a bit but they are pains with stuffing it full of drone brood. Quickly abandoned that idea. If you took away making nucs id probably er towards the 14 x 12 as you do get a nice buffer for stores but its causing me issues with the amount of nuc orders we now get
My operation is still rather modest, but I use a combination of 14x12 and national deep frames in 14x12 boxes, alternating the different sized frames to ensure the comb drawn in the cavities beneath the deep frames remains parallel. The rationale is to limit the number of brood frames I need to inspect per apiary visit, have national deep frames available for making up standard brood frame nucs, and the comb drawn out at the bottom of the deep frames provides a source of wax.
Sending a big thank you up to you buddy Was just thinking about changing myself My thinking was better for Over winter But as for making up nucs🤔 Think I'm gonna listen to you👍
Hey Tris. I never like to lead anyone's decision making as we all have different circumstances. I just try to lay out the pros and cons of both systems. If I could make that choice over again, would I have switched? No chance! 👎
I started with langstroth boxes as I build all my own hives and its a simpler box to build than the national. I've now modified the langstroth box design to accept both langstroth and national deep frames. It gives me the space of a langstroth frame when I need it but the convenience of using national deep's for making up nuc's etc. I've found langstroth frames are a similar price to national deep's with a good bit more space too. Certainly not a conventional approach but it seems to be working pretty well for me so far!
@@BlackMountainHoney Its all pretty simple really, in fact you can modify a langstroth poly box to accept national deep frames by fitting an extra block of poly at each end of the box for the national frame tabs to sit on. You get 10-15mm more bee space at the bottom with the national frame as the langstroth frames are slightly deeper, I haven't found this to be an issue. The main advantage is you can easily pull the poly blocks out and put langstroth frames back in should you need to.
@@BlackMountainHoney If you really get fed up with 14x12 you could always cut your boxes down to national deep frame size I guess.. the leftover section might even make a good eek!
@@croftonhoneyco.6177 Ah it would make a right mess. for the amount of boxes I have versus the time, I'd just sell them and buy new. Been caught trying to save £££ in the past and it's a false economy
I thought we had it bad here in the USA with Langstroth: deep,medium, and shallows. And even Lang. jumbo deep to a far lessor degree. Definitely more complex interchangeably in the UK.
I know it wouldn’t have solved a lot of the issues you described but did you ever consider using Commercial Brood Boxes and standard National Supers etc? It was a consideration for me but I’ve stuck with National double brood for the reasons you outlined.
Yeah. It was definitely a consideration and if you took away the nuc sales, it's a far superior system again BUT, the ability combine making nucs AND swarm control (contribute to) is magical! Just saves a lot of time on my system as opposed to separating nucs and swarm control
I have the Hyde Hives Longhive in 14x12. Hopefully if I manage to keep the bees over winter and get some frames of honey next year, what method of extraction would you recommend. I’ve been looking at Crush & Strain, so would really like for you to do a video on this method. I doubt I could afford to invest in a machine if I only have the one longhive for my hobby. Thank you.
Even with an extractor. If the frames blow whilst being extracted why bother? But surely not all 14”x12” would blow, so why would some and not the others? I am thinking of going with Dadant. This size of frame is a third bigger again. Maybe plastic frames with horizontal struts like they, could prevent blow out. Funny that there are no reviews on Dadant system in the uk. The dadant size seems a lot better system. Yet do the brood frames blow out in an extractor? The crush and strain is a lot of workforthe bees, especially if full empty frames are needed straight away
However, I may change my mind when the increased cost of equipment and added complexity of running multiple frame sizes become more keenly apparent as my operation, hopefully, continues to grow.
We run a demaree. It's good at reducing the urge to swarm but its a PAIN and you end up losing honey if you cant make use of the honey in the upstairs 14 x 12 box. Depending on time of year a decent method is to remove the queen to a mini mating nuc before she swarms. Take down all cells except one open cell and let them requeen (dont forget to squish emergency cells as well). Then, after 4-6 weeks if the virgin hasnt mated, you can squish and reintroduce the mated queen from the mating nuc. Generally works ok. No swarm management technique is 100% and if they are super crowded they may still go.
Bonjour, je suis français et nous n'avons pas de ruche nationale en France, je trouve les ruches de Grande Bretagne très jolie et très intéressante. En revanche, je n'ai pas compris la notion de 14*12 cela correspond à quoi, peut être que la nationale en divisible ou avec plus de cadres ? merci de m'éclairer, A bientot
I assume commercial and national are very similar as I cannot find any videos comparing them I know some people use commercial brood boxes with national supers
If you want to make money from Honey then use the Langstroth Hives like the canadian Beekeeper, who runs 1,500 hives for a Profit. The Bigger frame size means quicker Brood rearing and Egg laying in His Very short annual foraging season in Canada. Yet he gets up to 8 Boxes high, ie 6 boxes of honey on top of a double Brood colony. aCanadianBeekeepersBlog/videos
So you think it is easier to inspect 24 brood frames than it is to inspect 12?. Why would you want to extract honey from brood frames anyway, it belongs to the bees.
When double brooding we just crack the two boxes, tilt upwards and look at the bottom rungs of the top box, instead of inspecting 20 odd frames. Works well. We don't take honey from the brood area but means you can interchangeably use national deep boxes as for brood/honey collection
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Morning Laurence , After watching your Demaree vertical split method using National deeps and 12x14 brood boxes, I am so glad I watched your video on why you regret switching 12x14 system! I really appreciate your honesty and telling everyone about your experience. I can confidently rule out buying the 12x14 reduced boxes I’ve seen on Abelo site and instead stick to the 12 frame poly hive system and buy a number of brood boxes to help do your Demaree vertical split method you demonstrated last video. Thanks George D and Laurence E 🤩
Re you point about the second 14x12 frames - I've always found the seconds readily avaliable in the sales? Thornes and Maisemore always have them in although they are approx £38-40 vs the deeps around £28-£30.
I use deep unwired foundation as oversized starter strips which works out significantly cheaper than the 14x12 foundation and allows the bees to build drone comb below if they wish.
I do prefer 14x12 to deeps however I do make up deep nucs so I can definitely see why you'd prefer a double brood system in that regard.
I think trying to get them in larger quants in an issue and the price difference versus national is substantial.
I tried this for a bit but they are pains with stuffing it full of drone brood. Quickly abandoned that idea.
If you took away making nucs id probably er towards the 14 x 12 as you do get a nice buffer for stores but its causing me issues with the amount of nuc orders we now get
My operation is still rather modest, but I use a combination of 14x12 and national deep frames in 14x12 boxes, alternating the different sized frames to ensure the comb drawn in the cavities beneath the deep frames remains parallel. The rationale is to limit the number of brood frames I need to inspect per apiary visit, have national deep frames available for making up standard brood frame nucs, and the comb drawn out at the bottom of the deep frames provides a source of wax.
Sending a big thank you up to you buddy Was just thinking about changing myself My thinking was better for Over winter But as for making up nucs🤔 Think I'm gonna listen to you👍
Hey Tris. I never like to lead anyone's decision making as we all have different circumstances. I just try to lay out the pros and cons of both systems. If I could make that choice over again, would I have switched? No chance! 👎
I started with langstroth boxes as I build all my own hives and its a simpler box to build than the national. I've now modified the langstroth box design to accept both langstroth and national deep frames. It gives me the space of a langstroth frame when I need it but the convenience of using national deep's for making up nuc's etc. I've found langstroth frames are a similar price to national deep's with a good bit more space too.
Certainly not a conventional approach but it seems to be working pretty well for me so far!
Sounds very pragmatic indeed! Would love to see how it works :D
@@BlackMountainHoney Its all pretty simple really, in fact you can modify a langstroth poly box to accept national deep frames by fitting an extra block of poly at each end of the box for the national frame tabs to sit on. You get 10-15mm more bee space at the bottom with the national frame as the langstroth frames are slightly deeper, I haven't found this to be an issue. The main advantage is you can easily pull the poly blocks out and put langstroth frames back in should you need to.
@@croftonhoneyco.6177 Similar fashion to the convertable nucs. Always interested to see other people's mods though :)
@@BlackMountainHoney If you really get fed up with 14x12 you could always cut your boxes down to national deep frame size I guess.. the leftover section might even make a good eek!
@@croftonhoneyco.6177 Ah it would make a right mess. for the amount of boxes I have versus the time, I'd just sell them and buy new. Been caught trying to save £££ in the past and it's a false economy
I thought we had it bad here in the USA with Langstroth: deep,medium, and shallows. And even Lang. jumbo deep to a far lessor degree. Definitely more complex interchangeably in the UK.
I know it wouldn’t have solved a lot of the issues you described but did you ever consider using Commercial Brood Boxes and standard National Supers etc? It was a consideration for me but I’ve stuck with National double brood for the reasons you outlined.
Yeah. It was definitely a consideration and if you took away the nuc sales, it's a far superior system again BUT, the ability combine making nucs AND swarm control (contribute to) is magical! Just saves a lot of time on my system as opposed to separating nucs and swarm control
I have the Hyde Hives Longhive in 14x12. Hopefully if I manage to keep the bees over winter and get some frames of honey next year, what method of extraction would you recommend. I’ve been looking at Crush & Strain, so would really like for you to do a video on this method.
I doubt I could afford to invest in a machine if I only have the one longhive for my hobby.
Thank you.
Yes - C&S would what I would recommend, its on my list for next year
Even with an extractor. If the frames blow whilst being extracted why bother? But surely not all 14”x12” would blow, so why would some and not the others?
I am thinking of going with Dadant. This size of frame is a third bigger again. Maybe plastic frames with horizontal struts like they, could prevent blow out. Funny that there are no reviews on Dadant system in the uk. The dadant size seems a lot better system. Yet do the brood frames blow out in an extractor? The crush and strain is a lot of workforthe bees, especially if full empty frames are needed straight away
However, I may change my mind when the increased cost of equipment and added complexity of running multiple frame sizes become more keenly apparent as my operation, hopefully, continues to grow.
Moved to using only Illinois medium. Never have looked back.
The eke they add to a bs nuc to convert to a 14 x 12 , if you had 3 ekes would it match up the same , so could add deep on a deep.
Yes - there are a few work arounds. We just have separate national deep apiaries now for creating nucs
What is the best swarm control method you have found for a 14x12 brood box ?
We run a demaree. It's good at reducing the urge to swarm but its a PAIN and you end up losing honey if you cant make use of the honey in the upstairs 14 x 12 box. Depending on time of year a decent method is to remove the queen to a mini mating nuc before she swarms. Take down all cells except one open cell and let them requeen (dont forget to squish emergency cells as well). Then, after 4-6 weeks if the virgin hasnt mated, you can squish and reintroduce the mated queen from the mating nuc. Generally works ok. No swarm management technique is 100% and if they are super crowded they may still go.
@@BlackMountainHoney Thank you.
Bonjour, je suis français et nous n'avons pas de ruche nationale en France, je trouve les ruches de Grande Bretagne très jolie et très intéressante. En revanche, je n'ai pas compris la notion de 14*12 cela correspond à quoi, peut être que la nationale en divisible ou avec plus de cadres ? merci de m'éclairer, A bientot
Started lang jumbo, same problem Going to deeps
Why wouldn't you of went to commercial, they'd certainly hold more than 1 national deep
its a complete format change as opposed to just a different size brood box
@@BlackMountainHoney I understand
I agree that with commercial brood box.
Do you guys use langstroth
No. We are on nationals.
You forgot to mention it is a lot heavier then a national.
Very true. I'm actually ok with the weight - its not an issue for me and versus double brood its positively light :D
@@BlackMountainHoney quite interesting
Is the 14x12 hive also called a commercial hive
No - they are two different hives
I assume commercial and national are very similar as I cannot find any videos comparing them I know some people use commercial brood boxes with national supers
@seamus33cork Yes. You can use national floors, roofs and supers on commercial brood boxes.
Are black honey bee are honey
If you want to make money from Honey then use the Langstroth Hives like the canadian Beekeeper, who runs 1,500 hives for a Profit. The Bigger frame size means quicker Brood rearing and Egg laying in His Very short annual foraging season in Canada. Yet he gets up to 8 Boxes high, ie 6 boxes of honey on top of a double Brood colony. aCanadianBeekeepersBlog/videos
So you think it is easier to inspect 24 brood frames than it is to inspect 12?. Why would you want to extract honey from brood frames anyway, it belongs to the bees.
When double brooding we just crack the two boxes, tilt upwards and look at the bottom rungs of the top box, instead of inspecting 20 odd frames. Works well.
We don't take honey from the brood area but means you can interchangeably use national deep boxes as for brood/honey collection