***For some reason people want to attribute the failure of certain games like tera to its combat system which...if their understanding of the game or the genre is that low, there's no point in getting in discussion with them. Let me know what you think. They really should at least allow you to freecast certain skills ESPECIALLY your basic attack. Anyway, hope you enjoy the video and consider hitting the subscribe buttonand leave a like. Appreciate it.
A few MMO's have tried it. I personally can enjoy it either way (Tab or Free). Games like Elder Scrolls Online do the aiming no tab target and I think it works, but there are upsides and downsides to either system.
You were obviously not tired enough to just click off the video and not watch or even comment but you did. I think we are tired of lazy bums like you commenting and complaining offering nothing of value vs video creators who put time, energy, and valid arguments into their opinion to provide constructive criticism.
Sounds like you don’t want to play mmo’s. RPGs are ultimately just iterations of Dungeons and Dragons, where things like character power, decision making, and tactics have much more weight than skillfully timing button presses. I’ve been playing WoW since launch, and I feel most people still playing the genre are aging and don’t want dark souls action combat. Nearly every other genre is homogenizing into an action-hack-and-slash-with-rpg-elements. I’m sure you can find something else to play.
Just wanted to say, really good video. I understand in this current Age tab targetting should be removed since I can imagine for many it is just to slow. However at the same time there also needs to be a good solution, I think Hybrid works as well, but will also divide the traditional Class Playerbase. From what you've talked about I can sympathise being a DPS player but as a support/ healer it would be quite stressful not having a target system, mainly because players rarely stand still and unlike DPSlers who are going against mobs, support players have to target real human players which will be far more difficult.
Hybrid wouldn't divine the traditional playerbase because it has been done before in many games, just that other aspects of the game such as the monetization destroyed it eventually. In your case, hybrid would work just fine since it has the best of both worlds and allows you to target. Also regarding players rarely standing still, in action-combat, you typically have less movement speed increased abilities and while it is faster in terms of the real-time gameplay, people usually travel less distances so you shouldn't have that much trouble in keeping up with them. In addition, they can simple extend certain skills aoe.
then why are two of the most popular mmorpg's out there tab target and still succeeding (wow and FF14) hell even final fantasy 11 which was made before wow is still to this very day popular, private servers have a crap ton of players, the official servers which for some reason are still up 20+ years later are popular and you think we need to move away? L take
hmm do I play a strong going 20 years old tab targeting game or do I play a F2P (P2W) non tab targeting game that will grab a bunch of cash from 12 year olds and then die withing 2 years. Hmm cant decide
My problem is that only tab targeting mmos do DoT playstyle well, which is often my favorite playstyle for mmorpgs. Applying all the dots, keeping track, refreshing and so on. DoT playstyle is also a big thing in ARPGs like PoE, but it's a VERY different feel compared to tab-target mmorpgs like WoW. So when I'm craving that playstyle, most of the action mmorpgs fail hard. Not only do they fail at it, they sometimes outright don't even have the option to go that route. It usually ends up being, get as much power as you can, get as much crit rate as you can, do your rotation and see big crit numbers pop up. Sometimes that's enough for me, sometimes that's exactly the playstyle that I am in the mood for, but when I want something different, there usually isn't anything. So, tl;dr: I'd agree if modern (action) mmorpgs started thinking about having different playstyles that let you deal damage in different ways. I still to this day believe that WoW is the best mmorpg when it comes to class gameplay diversity, despite being a tab-targeting mmorpg.
Hmm well 3star, that's actually not true. Pretty much any hybrid that I've come across have DOT. The game I showed which was age of wushu had quite a few and another more popular one being guild wars 2, that game has plenty of DOT. They're called conditions. And last time I checked tera and even bdo had some dot. All the failures of action mmos had nothing to do with the combat style itself...and not every action combat is equal to each other just like tab targeting. There is a right way of doing it.
@@TheVillaousTerminater I've played all of those games at one point or another. A lot of them I just consider tab-target+. I was talking about true action mmorpgs, like Tera. A lot of them do have some dots here and there, but it's not something you can focus on as your main dps tool. GW2 has conditions, but I still found it pretty boring. I think WoW and maybe RIft are the only ones that I know of that had really fleshed out DoT playstyles. But WoW especially with Assassination Rogue, Feral Druid and Warlock. Like both thematically and gameplay-wise, I think WoW did it the best. And this is very much lacking in the modern mmorpgs in my opinion.
@@3star515 I don't know what you mean by gw2 conditions being boring...that seems a way to knock off you being corrected. GW2 Conditions are as well-established as you can get on dot. Those builds are so versatile and can even be mixed. It seems like you're complaining about the actual game dps options, not the combat system. I think you're conflating the two. People are trying to justify their preference of tab-targeting by making blatant false statements about the other two mechanics. DOT can be easily implemented. Another good example is neverwinter warlock class. Everything that tab target is, the other two are vastly superior, they just require more efforts which if you don't like that then that's your opinion of course.
I remember dragon nest action combat being my favorite during the early years. I prefer that over most games nowdays. Too bad the lack of care and p2w killed the game completely.
Wait what is this take on the subject? How can you claim that tab targeting removes the need for positioning and aiming? That's a straight up lie. Regardless tho, MMORPG's should not move away from tab targeting, tab target is the best option for the genre. At the end of the video you say that "most players within the genre are not interested in combat mechanics or gameplay factors. They are more interested in raids, dungeons, end-game content" - Bro, the actual fuck? However, I know what the real issue here is. It's really simple, you don't want an mmorpg. You're in the wrong genre.
Most people don't like active combat systems in their mmos, including active dodging. It also limits people with disabilities who already have a hard enough time playing and having to remap a lot of different keys or have controllers to assist. Ashes of Creations, one of the most anticipated mmos also started out this way, but ultimately added in tab targeting as well. I don't know how they plan on balancing that in regard to pvp though.
Tab targeting was a thing very , very, very long before WoW. Not sure why anyone would believe wow 'solidified' it unless you just weren't around back then and didnt play the bevy of games before WoW. Sierra On-Line's: The Realm, EverQuest, Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call, Final Fantasy XI, and quite a few others all pre-date WoW. Lets stop pretending just because WoW was popular that it created or even standardized much of anything in the MMO space. It took existing concepts and improved on most of them, but created very few of them.
Buddy, did you watch the video? Or do you like mis-representing things? Regardless....to give you a better picture, solidified means to just make something stronger or more defined.
@@TheVillaousTerminater Not mis-representing anything. I simply don't agree with your opinion on the subject. You're apparently offended by this so your reply lists the two options of either I didnt watch your video, or I'm just dishonest? I know what solidified means. I'd wager I'm a bit older than you as I was around and played all the games I mentioned in their primes. I don't feel WoW solidified it. By the time WoW even did it, it had already been such a mainstay in the genre, and WoW did nothing to innovate it. All I'm saying is that WoW seems to get a lot of credit for things it neither invented, popularized, or improved upon. If your a Gen Z and WoW was your first MMORPG then feel free to believe it if thats what you believe. I'm just saying I dont agree.
Shit take , every game without tab targeting died or is barely surviving , why do you think tera , lost ark , bdo etc.... did not make it big (even tho there are other reasons for their downfall) , majority of mmorpg players dont play the game to express skill they play it to chill out and get immersed , not to have to have 300 apm during a raid
@@TheVillaousTerminater I know why they drastically decline , its a plethora of reasons alongside of some being pay-to-win , some ceasing development etc... but there is a trend along all of them not having tab targeting.... not having tab-targeting in mmos isnt a way to go , especially if you want to keep raids for example and battlegrounds inside of those games , you cant expect everyone to learn dodging , parrying etc... in a mmo , most of the players are casual players that just want to chill out, non-tab targeting combat system is just not suited for games where you can have 20 people in a dungeon for example , its more suited for 1 on 1 fights like you have in souls-like games
Also predicting something like a pyroblast which is a long cast time for example in wow would just be painful , most of the skills would have to be near instant for non-tab target combat system to work properly
@@philophobic8023 so you admitted to scapegoating the combat system even though those falls had nothing to do with the combat system itself but you wanted to lie to somewhat bolster your point when you could of just been honest...i rest my case here.
I think that tab targeting needs to become the province of it's own strain of MMO. While it was the best fit for a long time, that time has passed and where it isn't the best option available it needs to go. Most MMO's wouldn't be using it. There are exceptions, a modern equivalent of Earth and Beyond Online would be a fit for tab targeting, because that was ship to ship combat, EVE Online is an existent example where tab targeting fits. The hybrid system you mention would fit other games, such as a modern equivalent of Auto Assault, where a mix of the precision of tab target and the flexibility of auto targeted directionality would be the best fit in practice. But for the classical MMORPG? I think action combat would be the go to default much of the time, we can agree on that.
I've actually never heard of earth and beyond online. Granted, it seems to be really old and most probably you haven't heard of such a thing. I imagined it didn't really appeal to many and probably didn't help that it had to compete with eve online? But yeah, hybrid is literally just keeping some skills target-required while others are usable without any and out of combat, in addition to having dodges and blocks of course.
it's the other way around. MMOs are tab targeting ... action combat should be something else than MMOs. It's like baldurs gate would ask that ARPG change their style because baldurs gate wants to be ARPG no turn based anymore....
So I guess you have not really played World of Warcraft, mentioning this game in particular for tab targeting systems as I haven't really played the others you mentioned. No having a target selected does not mean you will hit it automatically: - You need to be facing the target; - You need to be in range of the target (eithr closer or further from the target). - Other mechanics will apply (dodge, parry, block etc) More important then the above you will have do deal with the issue of lag, which is always a problem, but the targeting system you are mentioning will create utter chaos (mostly frustration from the player base). While it would be interesting for a bit it would get tiresome in about a week. And battlegrounds would need to be a lot limited in the number of players, not to mention world PvP. In PvE how can you hit something with a single target attack if you have 5 other NPC's stacked, for a matter of fact this applies in PvP as well. Having mass AoE attacks might look cool if you are going for that sort of an aesthetic with the entire game, but will not work for everything. Also switching a combat/targeting system for a game that is 20 years old ... you would be killing it. A combat or targeting system needs to fit the game from its conception as everything from the collision mechanics to the various combat systems and technical systems will need to be considered before making a choice in the matter, and changing your mind, even mid-way through development would essentially mean scraping the game (or a good chuck of it) and starting allover. Now, action or hybrid combat would make more sense in a single-player game where issues such as lag is irrelevant. These are my 2 cents on the matter.
As someone that’s played skill based games and MMOs I can say I would like to see something new. But unfortunately the average mmo player is bad.. There are people that wipe in basic 5-mans in wow.. think about that..
haha you think the average mmo player is bad? I believe if people just take the time to practice a bit, it really isn't difficult, and when you do it right, it's rewarding.
***For some reason people want to attribute the failure of certain games like tera to its combat system which...if their understanding of the game or the genre is that low, there's no point in getting in discussion with them.
Let me know what you think. They really should at least allow you to freecast certain skills ESPECIALLY your basic attack. Anyway, hope you enjoy the video and consider hitting the subscribe buttonand leave a like. Appreciate it.
A few MMO's have tried it. I personally can enjoy it either way (Tab or Free). Games like Elder Scrolls Online do the aiming no tab target and I think it works, but there are upsides and downsides to either system.
but games that were not tab targeting like tera just died
Most of them, yah. There are a few like ESO that still run around with less than impressive player counts yet decent sales figures (from MTXs)
Tera had great combat. The targeting system is not what killed it
that had nothing to do with the combat system....no correlation and causation whatsoever.
@@tonoshikikai Correct👍
i am tired of people thinking that their opinion is everyone else opinion
You were obviously not tired enough to just click off the video and not watch or even comment but you did.
I think we are tired of lazy bums like you commenting and complaining offering nothing of value vs video creators who put time, energy, and valid arguments into their opinion to provide constructive criticism.
Sounds like you don’t want to play mmo’s. RPGs are ultimately just iterations of Dungeons and Dragons, where things like character power, decision making, and tactics have much more weight than skillfully timing button presses. I’ve been playing WoW since launch, and I feel most people still playing the genre are aging and don’t want dark souls action combat. Nearly every other genre is homogenizing into an action-hack-and-slash-with-rpg-elements. I’m sure you can find something else to play.
It really is a leftover. Very little reason not to implement something better these days other than dev laziness or incompetence.
Just wanted to say, really good video.
I understand in this current Age tab targetting should be removed since I can imagine for many it is just to slow. However at the same time there also needs to be a good solution, I think Hybrid works as well, but will also divide the traditional Class Playerbase. From what you've talked about I can sympathise being a DPS player but as a support/ healer it would be quite stressful not having a target system, mainly because players rarely stand still and unlike DPSlers who are going against mobs, support players have to target real human players which will be far more difficult.
Hybrid wouldn't divine the traditional playerbase because it has been done before in many games, just that other aspects of the game such as the monetization destroyed it eventually. In your case, hybrid would work just fine since it has the best of both worlds and allows you to target. Also regarding players rarely standing still, in action-combat, you typically have less movement speed increased abilities and while it is faster in terms of the real-time gameplay, people usually travel less distances so you shouldn't have that much trouble in keeping up with them. In addition, they can simple extend certain skills aoe.
then why are two of the most popular mmorpg's out there tab target and still succeeding (wow and FF14)
hell even final fantasy 11 which was made before wow is still to this very day popular, private servers have a crap ton of players, the official servers which for some reason are still up 20+ years later are popular and you think we need to move away?
L take
hmm do I play a strong going 20 years old tab targeting game or do I play a F2P (P2W) non tab targeting game that will grab a bunch of cash from 12 year olds and then die withing 2 years. Hmm cant decide
People say the same about turn based combat in single player RPGs. Now every games is a 3D hack'n'slash/platformer and I wish we had something else.
You're definitely right. Although turn-based games are making a comeback with games like Baldur's Gate 3, and even outliers like Honkai Star Rail.
if you dont like it, stop playing it. And you are wrong.
100% agreed.
My problem is that only tab targeting mmos do DoT playstyle well, which is often my favorite playstyle for mmorpgs. Applying all the dots, keeping track, refreshing and so on. DoT playstyle is also a big thing in ARPGs like PoE, but it's a VERY different feel compared to tab-target mmorpgs like WoW.
So when I'm craving that playstyle, most of the action mmorpgs fail hard. Not only do they fail at it, they sometimes outright don't even have the option to go that route. It usually ends up being, get as much power as you can, get as much crit rate as you can, do your rotation and see big crit numbers pop up.
Sometimes that's enough for me, sometimes that's exactly the playstyle that I am in the mood for, but when I want something different, there usually isn't anything.
So, tl;dr: I'd agree if modern (action) mmorpgs started thinking about having different playstyles that let you deal damage in different ways.
I still to this day believe that WoW is the best mmorpg when it comes to class gameplay diversity, despite being a tab-targeting mmorpg.
Hmm well 3star, that's actually not true. Pretty much any hybrid that I've come across have DOT. The game I showed which was age of wushu had quite a few and another more popular one being guild wars 2, that game has plenty of DOT. They're called conditions. And last time I checked tera and even bdo had some dot.
All the failures of action mmos had nothing to do with the combat style itself...and not every action combat is equal to each other just like tab targeting. There is a right way of doing it.
@@TheVillaousTerminater I've played all of those games at one point or another. A lot of them I just consider tab-target+.
I was talking about true action mmorpgs, like Tera.
A lot of them do have some dots here and there, but it's not something you can focus on as your main dps tool.
GW2 has conditions, but I still found it pretty boring.
I think WoW and maybe RIft are the only ones that I know of that had really fleshed out DoT playstyles.
But WoW especially with Assassination Rogue, Feral Druid and Warlock. Like both thematically and gameplay-wise, I think WoW did it the best.
And this is very much lacking in the modern mmorpgs in my opinion.
@@3star515 I don't know what you mean by gw2 conditions being boring...that seems a way to knock off you being corrected. GW2 Conditions are as well-established as you can get on dot. Those builds are so versatile and can even be mixed. It seems like you're complaining about the actual game dps options, not the combat system. I think you're conflating the two. People are trying to justify their preference of tab-targeting by making blatant false statements about the other two mechanics. DOT can be easily implemented. Another good example is neverwinter warlock class. Everything that tab target is, the other two are vastly superior, they just require more efforts which if you don't like that then that's your opinion of course.
I remember dragon nest action combat being my favorite during the early years. I prefer that over most games nowdays. Too bad the lack of care and p2w killed the game completely.
I remember seeing Dragon Nest...at that time I didn't have a device that could run anything of the sort. And ofcourse, as usual, p2w kills everything.
Wait what is this take on the subject? How can you claim that tab targeting removes the need for positioning and aiming? That's a straight up lie.
Regardless tho, MMORPG's should not move away from tab targeting, tab target is the best option for the genre.
At the end of the video you say that "most players within the genre are not interested in combat mechanics or gameplay factors. They are more interested in raids, dungeons, end-game content" - Bro, the actual fuck?
However, I know what the real issue here is. It's really simple, you don't want an mmorpg. You're in the wrong genre.
lets be honest, this is a shit take. Tab targeting combat is what we need
Your statement is wrong. It is not "obsolete". It is valid critizism though that too many mmos use that same combat system.
Fantasy role playing games should not use modern FPS gameplay mechanics. I prefer the slower tab playstyle.
Most people don't like active combat systems in their mmos, including active dodging. It also limits people with disabilities who already have a hard enough time playing and having to remap a lot of different keys or have controllers to assist.
Ashes of Creations, one of the most anticipated mmos also started out this way, but ultimately added in tab targeting as well. I don't know how they plan on balancing that in regard to pvp though.
Wildstar tried :(
no thanks, all "action" MMOs have had shit combat. Games with GOOD, satisfying raid encounters all have tab targeting or click to attack.
Tab targeting was a thing very , very, very long before WoW. Not sure why anyone would believe wow 'solidified' it unless you just weren't around back then and didnt play the bevy of games before WoW. Sierra On-Line's: The Realm, EverQuest, Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call, Final Fantasy XI, and quite a few others all pre-date WoW. Lets stop pretending just because WoW was popular that it created or even standardized much of anything in the MMO space. It took existing concepts and improved on most of them, but created very few of them.
Buddy, did you watch the video? Or do you like mis-representing things? Regardless....to give you a better picture, solidified means to just make something stronger or more defined.
@@TheVillaousTerminater Not mis-representing anything. I simply don't agree with your opinion on the subject. You're apparently offended by this so your reply lists the two options of either I didnt watch your video, or I'm just dishonest? I know what solidified means. I'd wager I'm a bit older than you as I was around and played all the games I mentioned in their primes. I don't feel WoW solidified it. By the time WoW even did it, it had already been such a mainstay in the genre, and WoW did nothing to innovate it. All I'm saying is that WoW seems to get a lot of credit for things it neither invented, popularized, or improved upon. If your a Gen Z and WoW was your first MMORPG then feel free to believe it if thats what you believe. I'm just saying I dont agree.
Shit take , every game without tab targeting died or is barely surviving , why do you think tera , lost ark , bdo etc.... did not make it big (even tho there are other reasons for their downfall) , majority of mmorpg players dont play the game to express skill they play it to chill out and get immersed , not to have to have 300 apm during a raid
I want to believe you're somewhat intelligent so I'll let you figure out why those games drastically decline.🤔
@@TheVillaousTerminater I know why they drastically decline , its a plethora of reasons alongside of some being pay-to-win , some ceasing development etc... but there is a trend along all of them not having tab targeting.... not having tab-targeting in mmos isnt a way to go , especially if you want to keep raids for example and battlegrounds inside of those games , you cant expect everyone to learn dodging , parrying etc... in a mmo , most of the players are casual players that just want to chill out, non-tab targeting combat system is just not suited for games where you can have 20 people in a dungeon for example , its more suited for 1 on 1 fights like you have in souls-like games
Also predicting something like a pyroblast which is a long cast time for example in wow would just be painful , most of the skills would have to be near instant for non-tab target combat system to work properly
@@philophobic8023 so you admitted to scapegoating the combat system even though those falls had nothing to do with the combat system itself but you wanted to lie to somewhat bolster your point when you could of just been honest...i rest my case here.
Bruh tf you yapping about
I think that tab targeting needs to become the province of it's own strain of MMO. While it was the best fit for a long time, that time has passed and where it isn't the best option available it needs to go. Most MMO's wouldn't be using it. There are exceptions, a modern equivalent of Earth and Beyond Online would be a fit for tab targeting, because that was ship to ship combat, EVE Online is an existent example where tab targeting fits. The hybrid system you mention would fit other games, such as a modern equivalent of Auto Assault, where a mix of the precision of tab target and the flexibility of auto targeted directionality would be the best fit in practice. But for the classical MMORPG? I think action combat would be the go to default much of the time, we can agree on that.
I've actually never heard of earth and beyond online. Granted, it seems to be really old and most probably you haven't heard of such a thing. I imagined it didn't really appeal to many and probably didn't help that it had to compete with eve online? But yeah, hybrid is literally just keeping some skills target-required while others are usable without any and out of combat, in addition to having dodges and blocks of course.
it's the other way around. MMOs are tab targeting ... action combat should be something else than MMOs. It's like baldurs gate would ask that ARPG change their style because baldurs gate wants to be ARPG no turn based anymore....
@@thedaeron3877 MMORPG is a Massively Multiplayer that emphasize players interactions. Not something that fall exclusively under a certain playstyle.
So I guess you have not really played World of Warcraft, mentioning this game in particular for tab targeting systems as I haven't really played the others you mentioned.
No having a target selected does not mean you will hit it automatically:
- You need to be facing the target;
- You need to be in range of the target (eithr closer or further from the target).
- Other mechanics will apply (dodge, parry, block etc)
More important then the above you will have do deal with the issue of lag, which is always a problem, but the targeting system you are mentioning will create utter chaos (mostly frustration from the player base).
While it would be interesting for a bit it would get tiresome in about a week.
And battlegrounds would need to be a lot limited in the number of players, not to mention world PvP.
In PvE how can you hit something with a single target attack if you have 5 other NPC's stacked, for a matter of fact this applies in PvP as well. Having mass AoE attacks might look cool if you are going for that sort of an aesthetic with the entire game, but will not work for everything.
Also switching a combat/targeting system for a game that is 20 years old ... you would be killing it.
A combat or targeting system needs to fit the game from its conception as everything from the collision mechanics to the various combat systems and technical systems will need to be considered before making a choice in the matter, and changing your mind, even mid-way through development would essentially mean scraping the game (or a good chuck of it) and starting allover.
Now, action or hybrid combat would make more sense in a single-player game where issues such as lag is irrelevant.
These are my 2 cents on the matter.
As someone that’s played skill based games and MMOs I can say I would like to see something new. But unfortunately the average mmo player is bad.. There are people that wipe in basic 5-mans in wow.. think about that..
haha you think the average mmo player is bad? I believe if people just take the time to practice a bit, it really isn't difficult, and when you do it right, it's rewarding.
Absolute bad take on this
100%. These wowheads need to grow up