Ork armies grew to unmanageable levels, Tzeentch was the demon behind the demons you thought were the problem, Votann crafted themselves overpowered weapons, and Drukhari made everyone suffer and feel the pain. GW sure knows how to make flavorful fuckups.
I think my favorite rules mistake was for Trooper 'try again' Bragg. His rules were worded originally that he could throw infinite frag grenades a turn and kill anything within 6 inches.
@@mk-ultraviolence1760 Limited only by the number of targets within range. Since the ability let him shoot again if he didn't injure anyone with his autogun, as long as he never fired the autogun he could throw the exact number of grenades needed to kill whatever number of targets was in front of him.
I liked the part where Fortifications were so useless they might aswell not be in the game, infact they weren't, cause noone could place them without violating terrain rules lol
Once upon a time there was a feature of rules bloopers that was in Dork Tower, iirc. They made a collection of them called “Murphy’s Rules”. Some old 2nd Ed 40k rules made it in there. Fun book.
As a necron player i still laugh about how slapped together with duct tape the 9th codex is after all the fixes. They just couldnt figure out how to fix it proper so they gave the entire army core except for canoptek.
@@justinreynolds731 Yeah, you cant use the Chaos keyword, but can use the Tzeench one. You just dont get any boni from it. But since that list had death guard as the main army, that wouldnt mattered anyway.
Not gonna lie, at the very end of 5th edition Grey Knights Razorbacks with Psybolt Ammo and three Inquisitiorial Acolytes was a fun shitshow to live through.
I like the idea of Votann having a "Judgement Ability". Like, enemy units still accumulate judgement tokens, and you can use an ability, like once or twice per game, to give them a strong debuff. A sort of "straw that broke the camel's back" situation, where Votann all get a huge to hit or to wound buff on that enemy unit. That would make the game a lot more dynamic, while not raising the power level of each Votann unit by default.
I also think Judgement tokens need to have a range, it can be long like a sniper, but votann being like "my one goon can see the tiniest sliver of ur transports prow through the gaps in all this terrain from across the entire map: judgement token." is bullshit lol
I’ve got a proposal to fix a lot of the problems with flamers. I doubt they’ll do it next edition, but I feel it would be a massive fix. Change flamer weapons to be as follower “Each time the bearer makes an attack, a hit roll of 2+ is always successful (including when firing Overwatch), irrespective of any modifiers or abilities that the target may have.” This prevents any major issues with them not being able to roll ones, allows them to be able to get the benefits of stuff that does extra on 6s (so let the galaxy burn wouldn’t need a flamer specific thing), still let’s them fire well on Overwatch, but doesn’t overcorrect. At worse they’re 5/6 the damage they were, which is a pretty minor nerf and could be easily fixed with points costs over time as you saw what is weak. And it pretty much solves the problem of having to consider flamers as a whole different type of ranged weapon, instead they function effectively the same as any other ranged weapon when interacting with abilities and what not, with the exception that they’ll be good in Overwatch and have a better hit chance than normal weapons (but that’s pretty easily balancable by just balancing average wounds. If you want a flamer gun to be about equal two storm bolters, the expected hits that go through should be about them same.)
The best one I came across was, I think, for one specific squad of marines. The sergeant could swap out their bolt pistol for another weapon. But if it did not have a bolt pistol, it could be given one. So you swap out your pistol for a better one, then get a bolt pistol anyway because the model no longer had one.
You're wrong on the cap on buggies. They were always three to a unit. In 8th, you could have nine of each, and /then they split up/. It was actually a minor nerf to orks (though not nearly enough to compensate for the big buffs buggies received at the same time.
Comin in from a Dawn of War perspective it's so funny that the same issue that made fighting Orks in the game a nightmare (ahem, Wartraks mortar artillery) translated over to the tabletop a decade later
My favorite (might have been 8th) was when knights or other vehicles couldnt fight infantry on the second floor of building even if they were basically at eye level with each other
I'm not an expert on tournament play by any means, but I really don't understand why Dark Technomancers was changed from being penalized for rolling a 1 in the wound roll to rolling a 1 in the hit roll when you consider that almost every coven unit can auto-hit. It almost seems like they were too embarrassed to admit that they wrote the 9th codex without checking the rule in the Psychic Awakening book it was introduced.
With the Votann rule I think the way to fix it(besides capping at 5) would be just make it so if you auto-wound, roll a dice to determine the effect...that's all they have to do!! However they now have rules that actively sabotage themselves *sigh*
do you think "using up" judgement tokens would work? like: they wont stay on an enemy unit the entire game. You can use 1 token to auto wound on a 6, but if you choose to do that, that token is then removed from the unit. So you can stack up to 3 and still get your auto wounds to 4, but as soon as you use that ability, the 3 tokens are removed and the Votaan player has to re-judge that unit again. just brainstorming :)
You'd think that one fix to flamers would be to just make them 'hit on 2+', which still makes you expect a hit almost all the time, but still provides the potential for misses and preserves any additional negatives that occur on a 1. Or if they want to keep flamers always hitting, then if there's a negative aspect on 1's, add onto that rule a statement that flamers still roll the to-hit roll just to see if they get the 1 and take the negative.
To be fair GW seems quite oblivious to orky stuff. A 5th horsemen in the other side showing very week unit would be SAG big mek. This unit shows that GW really do not understand statistics ;P.
if literaly every 9th codex needed a nerf the issue was 8th edition army books not 9th. shitting on current edition content so that old un updated content can feel special doesnt fix any issues.
23:30 Why do you hate necrons so much? Silent King is the only Supreme Commander that can't get rerolls from his own abilities and it makes him nauseatingly unreliable. He is also the only one that can't benefit from his own subfaction. This is what's dumb, not the fact, that he finally felt good to play for three months! And everybody acts like it's OK and necrons deserve all this crap.
I don't even play 40k, but that votann rule just seems absolutely stupid. Am I right in thinking you'd just pile all your judgment tokens on to the biggest threat with the highest toughness, fire at it with something with low strength but a lot of shots, get a million hits which results in half a million auto wounds? Seems incredibly dumb. And if that's the case, does that mean I understand 40k rules better than gw does despite not playing it?
My favourite part of the orks and tzeentch issues is that GW don't just test in house they love to send books out early to some battle report channels one of the main ones being tabletop tactics. Who don't own ork buggies or any tzeentch demons. Or they send them to some high level Comp players. Who only own models / armies that used to be broken. Tzeentch has always been kinda garbage so no one really owned tzeenth.
My favorite rules mistake is waaaaaaaay back in 5th edition. Honestly it was more of a typo than anything, but RAW, the pyrovore nuking the entire board on death is hilarious
@Dycie Fisk the wording was so bad, it said it hit EVERY UNIT FOR each model within 6" of the pyrovore when it died. Cram a bunch of gaunts next to your pyrovore, let him pop, then roll about 100 dice for every single unit lol
In an ideal world, they could have made the votan ability work on some sort of a curve where every new tier requires more tokens, but the book was way too busted.
In an ideal world they wouldn’t have written the railguns the way they did. A not heavy lascannon ignoring invulns, and dealing mortal wounds but not mortal wounds getting around all the feel no pains against mortals. And that was just the infantry version. Nvm the heavy one doing 8-12 damage.
Tokens were too strong offenesively and too easy to get. Combined with strong defensive rules and common invulnerability-bypass weaponry on resilient platforms and you have a recipe for disaster
Grudges should be a melee only ability. Think about it: GSC have terrible shooting for their decent melee. So GW made a mechanic to uplift their shooting. Votann shoots like crazy, but Berserkers aside, their CC leaves much to be desired. So why not make a mechanic that improves their close combat potential?
I reckon a few things might have worked, like for instance if you attack a unit with judgement tokens then after that attack the tokens are removed. Or just have it so if you auto-wound with a weapon that has special effects on a wound roll of 6, then you can roll an additional D6 to fish for 6s.
Hey Brad and Eric it may not mean much but your honest way of speaking and covering of unique and hot topics in Warhammer has helped to get a lot of my more cynical friends into Warhammer due to your podcasts very nature. Thank you for what you do and never change 👍🏻😎
Another thing that was busted about TSK being core, you could have a technomancer babysit him and have it revive his Triarchal Menhirs and keep him perpetually alive.
@@andrewcarter9649 Nah, TSK has the dynastic agent keyword, so while he doesn’t have a dynastic code and while he must be the Warlord you can still make it a custom dynasty. Edit: Scratch that, Technomancer’s rites of reanimation specify that the target must be from the same dynasty.
The orc one is incredibly significant. Literally right before they literally said they were “going to make sure that vehicles will always have a competitive place on the table” and right after they went quiet and nerfed any vehicle that came out. Buggy spam killed vehicles PERIOD, down to their soul within the very hearts of GW.
I think personally it was the bodyguard rule, for absolutely no reason they had to upgrade "look out sir" and with the way it was worded meant you had 2 untargetable characters on opposing armies death staring each other from across the battlefield while the unit that was supposed to take the bullet for them hid away in a terrain piece so you couldnt see them There was a marine version with a character dred I think but celestine was the biggest offender as she could basically create a minefield area you couldn't enter, and couldn't clear (by shooting her)
one of my favourite rules oversights is that until like the first January of 9th edition there was no rules to explain how to disembark large models I discovered it when I realised that Illuminor Szeras was legible to embark in a night scythe but was physically too large to be able to disembark without the emergency disembarkation stratagem and they fixed it a few months later by saying that if a model is physically too large to fit wholly within 3" of the transport then it has to be touching the base or hull of the transport when it disembarks
I liked how the Votann thing explicitly counted as unmodified. The whole reason the modified/unmodified distinction has created was to reign in exactly that type of busted shit.
Well it had to be written that way or you get the situation they're in now where handing out Judgement tokens makes your special weapons worse, which is confusing and counterintuitive. They're more balanced now, but also their rules are stupid and backwards to get there.
Heh, speaking of flamers and orks, it reminds me of the burna-wagons back in... 4th? Battlewagon full of burna-boys would roll up, then use Open Topped to attack with all the burnas, but the way it works in 4th for flamers was you had a template you'd use from each flamer model to see how many enemies were under the template and that's how many hits you got, except when you did it from a vehicle, then you just used 1 single template, then multiplied the result x14 and that's how many hits you got. So my squad of plague marines got rolled up on, not realizing what was about to happen, and the ork player is shortly rolling 98 to-wound rolls at once. I lost that game badly. It was hilarious though. So yeah, GW's problems with balancing flamers is just a tried and true tradition.
Being able to take 9 rukkatrukka's wasn't bad; it was their weapon loadout that made it atrocious (indirect, high AP, volume fire, damage 2); Deathguard can run 3x3 Myphitic Blighthaulers and it's never been a problem.
9th edition in a nutshell can be found if you take a detailed look at the Mypitic Blight-Haulers, they're pretty damn stacked when looked at in a vacuum. Good amount of anti-tank firepower, + an extra chaff clearing gun just as a free bonus. Very tanky for a light vehicle, boasting Disgustingly Resilient, T7, a 5++ invu, 9 wounds per piece (meaning no profile degredation) good target for Miasma of pestilence, and a strategem that gives them excellent protection against multi-meltas. Oh, and enemies get a -1 to hit them in melee too. They're reasonably fast with a 10 inch movement, and they even have a decent melee profile for clearing chaff, swinging 4 times with STR 6, AP 2, D1 plague weapon. And they're cheap too, only costing 110 points per model. How are they in the greater 9th edition meta? Eh, kinda mediocre. Just merely "Ok". That's a bit fucked.
@@LordZylok Funny you mention this - I actually play deathguard in tournaments and use up to six at a time (don't have a full nine). The "problem" with the MBH is that when in a unit, it's functionally just a helbrute with better movement, better save (5++!) but incredibly weak melee. People tend to just try and lock it in melee with chaff, so you have to either screen them (which is hard because they outpace all your infantry) or fire into melee with their heavy weapons (not actually that bad!). They are actually best used as a tanky blocking unit to move on objectives and prevent obsec units from taking it back by the sheer size of their bases - literally screening the objective off. The major downside and reason they don't do too well is a lack of CORE keyword and reliance on low volume, non plague-weapon firepower which does little to synergise with secondaries. Personally I think they are the dark horse of the range, and a simple army of blighthaulers and plaguemarines can take on all comers with the right tactical mindset.
Shout out to Abbadon being the best HQ in chaos knights, death guard, thousand sons and daemons, i feel he is worth a mention just for creating the nonsense that is Abbadon walking the dogs
Technically my favorite was a 8th edition thing. The Biovore Spore Carpet. Spore Mines technically counts as a model, and therefore blocked movement within a 1 inch radius around itself (which with the base, came out to be about a 3 inch diameter of nope). While you could trigger the mines to explode, you had to do that after moving into range of them or shooting at them, both of which meant that you wasted your movement for the turn. Biovores could spawn them ad infinium if they shot with the spore mine launcher and missed, especially before the 9th codex where you could intentionally move them out of synapse range and self-impose a -1 to hit modifier. And each spore mine, even if it was spawned from biovores all in the same mother unit, all counted as individual units so they didn't have to remain in coherency. My friend played Orks with no fly units. He very, very quickly learned that running forward did not work. This shenanigan traumatized him so much that he still winces whenever anything that even looks like the biovore (like the pyrovore or the exocrine) shows up in my list. They tried to fix this in the 9th edition Codex by making it so Spore Mines couldn't block movement (you could move through them as if the unit moving had Fly) but that still wasn't enough as while you could move *through* them, you could not end your movement on them or within 1". cue me and several others putting them in such a way that they would block everywhere the models could legally land. GW had to finally put the foot down on this by making Spore Mines cost points to summon and, as of this comment, has not rescinded this. My friend remains traumatized to this day. EDIT: As far as I know this never broke any tournaments, but it was just so hilariously annoying to play against. You basically had to be "that guy" to bring this to a match, as it signals you going "I don't wanna win, I want you to hate this game".
Not gonna lie, I wasn't aware of most of these because I always assumed some broken stuff was always happening in the meta scene. That being said, flamers of tzeentch change is so bad, it's hysterical.
I wonder if changing Votann to plus to wound would be better. This way you don't have the nonbo but also you could still roll a 1 to wound so it doesn't seem super OP.
With the increased toughness range in tenth, I hope that flamers won''t be able to deal with heavily armored and have a some trouble with even moderate armor.
I would have liked to see the rule changed to “if the target unit have 3 judgement tokens, 6’s to hit count as a unmodified wound roll of 6”. This would make Magna-rail feel less janky.
Wasn't there a Drukhari Succubus build where due to some quirk of writing you could just keep making attacks over and over again until basically everything in melee was dead?
Personal favorite blunder was the Vehicles = Core buff for Necrons. Specifically making even Character vehicles core. Turning Szarekh into an unkillable monster with perfect synergy for himself. Bring Illuminor Szeras or play in the Szarekhan Dynasty and you can just keep reanimating the Menhirs. THEN it specifically says on his datasheet that all damage MUST go to the Menhirs first, superseding the core rule that the model with missing wounds dies before the others. Compound on it with a Spyder in Szarekhan and you can heal the king even faster than living metal while the menhirs sponge any new damage coming your way. Amazing
It was in 8th but salamanders had a stratagem where on a wound roll of 4+ you did a mortal wound with a flame weapon. Which is fine for like a flamer in a tactical squad but on agressors it was game breaking and you could get ridiculous quantities of mortals. I only played with it once before they capped it at 6 and 3 agressors killed a repulsor. There also made a relic and warlord trait combo that could make a damage 12 smash captain and they fixed that by saying people where doing the math wrong and it was actually damage 9, which was still insane.
My favourite was the brief few weeks before it was FAQ'd where you could roleplay a helicopter and use BA death company forlorn fury infinite times and get 144 inches pregame movement. It was never really abused at scale but with 3x10 death company if you got first turn it was essentially game over.
The Buggies thing could have been solved by them just letting every buggy after the first take no FoC slots. Note that I said "letting", not "must"; you could choose between it taking a slot or not so that you could still use them to fill compulsory slots if you wished. This makes it different from giving them a Combat Squad style rule while also letting them just be different units.
Actually with the ork thing in 8th you could take 9 buggies of one type, and they split up. Balanced the whole way through, 9th just messed up the balance lol
On some less fortunate but really funny Balance mistakes... The Demonic save meant that Grey Knights anti-demon weapons couldnt penetrate Chaos Demon saves... But weapons that could ignore any saves *except* invul because they were amazing physically but not against forcefields and demons suddenly could just ignore Demonic Save (iirc Eversor?)
when salamander supplement released in 8th it allowed a single aggressor sergeant to do 24 auto hitting flamer shots 2 damage each wounding on at least a 5+, 4+ dealing mortal wounds, rerolling all wounds. So 24 mortal wounds and 48 flamer damage from the sergeant alone.
I mean Votann happened so quickly because so many TO's were outright BANNING Votann before it was even released. And GW didn't want to lose out on the profit there. So you can say it was a risky move nerfing them before people bought it, but it meant people actually bought it in the first place
Games workshop don't understand that rules stack exponentially, not additively. A guardsman hitting on 4, autowounding on 6? That's fine. But now that guardsman has AP-1? And 5s autowound too? And every 6 to wound counts as a mortal wound? And there are full rerolls to hit and wound?
For the LoV judgement tokens, I would have preferred there still be some means of getting the wound roll of a 6. So have hit rolls of 6 against a marked target, regardless of judgement token count, count as a 6 to wound; or allow them to still roll to wound even after auto-wounding, which will still count as a wound regardless of what is rolled but gives them at least chance to roll the 6 to wound. So the rules aren't brokenly synergizing nor are they actively working against each other. This is primarily to help the trans-hyperian league, who was already considered the least powerful league before the nerf happened, now they are considered unplayable
... and I can't be the only one staring down some salivating try-hard Chad in the forums who wanted "Squats 2: The Resquattening" so unbearably badly that those of us who "could count to numbers bigger than four" were saying in formus before the army was released: '... these rules are garbage because they're *ludicrously* unfair,' and they're over here turning purple screaming: TRUST THE PROCESS. GW KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING. IT'S FINE IT'S FINE YOU'RE SO SENSITIVE YOU JUST HATE FUN.
Oh, I wish they'd removed Judgement Tokens from the Votann Index instead of what they did. Seemingly balancing all weaponry and BS around the assumption that what you're shooting has 2 tokens on it, so the supposedly high tech Votann guns are often actually worse than their Imperial/Tau counterparts. Combined with the entire range needing major point drops, making them not at all feel like an elite/tech tech army really undermined a lot of my enthusiasm for 10th edition. Major feels bad moment...
tyranids have some silly broken rules, here's 3 I can think of off the top of my head 1 - Hormagaunts could turn 1 charge. They can move 6 inches pre-game if you take that adaptive biology, then they move 8 inches normally, but with a stratagem you can advance one unit something like 18 inches instead of moving, and then they can still charge, so with the pre-game move that's 24 inch movement and THEN a charge. They're only hormagaunts, but get a unit of 30 and multi-charge 2 infantry units and those enemy units are just GONE in the blink of an eye given how many attacks hormagaunts have in 9th 2 - neuronthropes could keep vanishing off the board after they unleashed psychic powers, then re-appear next turn after movement phase to zap zap....before vanishing again until next turn. It was all thanks to a single stratagem for 1CP you could spam. Your enemy couldn't attack them as long as you had command points. 3 - there was some crazy combo you could do with the big psychic beastie, I don't remember what it was exactly, but you could pump out something like 24 mortal wounds in a single turn from that one unit, which is INSANE.
Random question that may never get answered… Do you guys ever plan on doing AoS content as well? So I just found you guys like… a few days ago (might have been weeks, it’s been a crazy point for me atm) and I am really jiving with what you guys are doing with this. However while I do own 40k armies (my Grey Knights can even push up to the 2000 point level), I’m more of an AoS player (kharadron are best and if you don’t agree I’m putting names in a book somewhere!). I’ve heard that you guys do have AoS armies, so I’m super interested to see if you guys do end up dipping a toe every so often into AoS!
Funny thing about DT "fix": it didn't fix the problem. A bit later on, we had people with 9 chronos cheerfully roasting people with s5 flamers. Why couldn't GW just return the obsession to the way it worked back in 8e? Wound rolls of 1 dealing damage/killing the shooting model would be so much better and more elegant.
Ok my very first game of 1k points of 40k I ever played at a store was 9th ed. I was playing Ultramarines vs Orks since I only had about 1k points from the Dark Imperium box and a few other units to get it up to 1k points. My opponent just fielded 1 Warboss (not sure what exactly) and the rest of their points was those fucking trucks. I got tabled and didn't even take out a single vehicle. Honestly, it turned me off playing the game entirely for basically a year.
Sadly we already know GW doesn’t play test and as was mentioned Gw only makes a handful of models and copy pasted them. Look at any codex or specifically chaos knights. You’ll see the exact SAME big knight used three times in one picture as an example. 9th was a dumpster fire and this is from someone who was forced to quit in 7th. I’m worried about tenth even though I have enough for five different armies but shit like combi weapons being all melta when I play and use combi-flamers for sisters…
in balance discussions for smaller games, sometimes people who aren't into 40k will dismissively refer to GW's balancing, and I'll jokingly refer to one of these instances. they won't know what I'm talking about, unfortunately... but yeah. might start having to link this episode
I think the funniest balance mistake was nerfing an army that nobody played and taking almost all of their cool shit away, and giving it to a smaller group of that larger force, and letting them have access to tons of equipment the other army did. Tempestus Scions got nerfed in 8th edition _and_ 9th edition, and they can't take tanks, they can't take most support units, they can't take most vehicles, only Taurox Primes (which also got nerfed with the removal of the [Blast] and [Assault] keywords from most of its weapons, making it simply inherently worse,) and you can only take 2 aircraft due to that moronic change, so now you can't even have a flexible army, it can only do one thing. That was the stupidest nerf that I've ever witnessed for _any_ game. Why did they do this? Oh, the last time any new Tempestus Scions models were created was well over a decade ago, but the Kasrkin? Which are the Cadian members _of the Tempestus Scions,_ get all the regimental doctrines that got removed from Scions which made them effective, they just can only have one gun. But the Kasrkin...which are _part of the Scions,_ can take Lord Solar, but the Scions can't. What the hell?
With flamers & flamer-like weapons sounding pretty strong why are the flamer heavy marines (i.e. Salamanders) not OP in a similar way? I'm someone who's not familiar with the tabletop rules, I'm just asking out of curiosity.
It's a big, quite complex game with all the (suc)factions around, but boy, oh boy did GW drop the ball on some of these releases. Even as a more casual fan who is in this madness more for the hobby than the gaming side there have been so many dumb moments where the game / company's sales approach just ruined the entire experience. I have zero problems with loosing a game if I bring a fun, thematic list and the other player is more focused on efficiency. But there are simply armies that cannot keep up even if they'd tried, while others even in the hands of a fluffy or less experienced player are just vastly superior. I gave up editions ago on the idea of 40K ever being balanced, but at this point GW has even given up on lying to us that they're trying to balance things. Flamers show the lack of actual betatesting, while Votann demonstrates the utter greed. At times it feels like GW are intentionally trying to destroy the game.........then I wake up and realize that we're not the actual customers. We are the resource being mined for the shareholders and investors. ;-)
As a lover of playing votann. I agreed with the nerf to votann judgment tokens. I think we can all agree that auto wounding on 4’s, and it counting as 6’s was too much. My only gripe was the point increases. Fortress and berserks yes, but I feel like hearthguard and warriors didn’t need a nerf. Especially with warriors being our only troop choice right now, and hearthguard aren’t really a problem. Seeing as they only have 2 wounds, -1 damage. It should have been the bikes to get the nerf bat. Ok love you bye!!!
yeah but if the the hearthguard has a medic they keep protected in the center, theyre basically regenning 1-3 guys every turn assuming you dont whipe them (which isnt easy to do w their toughness and two wounds each). Imo the fact that the medic is part of a regular troop unit, and the player can choose not to allocate wounds to them till theyve all died- justifies them being more expensive than standard troops.
@@lemonworm Hearthkyn warriors* have 1 wound except for the theyn. The unit on its own is 130pts. The med pack you have to pay 5pts for, and can only be used once per battle round. Also, using one CP a turn just to possible bring back 1-3 models in the unit isn’t really that crazy. Warriors are tough, but there not as tough as people make them out to be. I could go on for a good while about thing that make the unit good or bad, but for a base pt cost of 130. 155 if there souped up. Nah not worth it.
I think Judgement Tokens could have been okay as they were in power, if they were slower to build. It was the conjunction of being so powerful and the army having so many ways to just dump them all over the enemy that was the problem. Like wound on a 4+ to hit is super nuts but if the army is 'slow to get going' and has a weak turn 1-2, and 3 tokens is only feasible turn 3, or even 4 and up, then it would likely work out. I feel like that's the design they were GOING for with Votann; start slow, hang in there, build up grudge, finish strong. But they gave them too many options to drown the enemy in judgement tokens and then had to nerf it all into the dirt.
I am wondering why they did away with the balance that demons used to have a while ago. Flamers still got a bunch of shots, not as much as the 9th ed ones, but most minor demons outside of Khorne only had an invulnerable save. Also, if I remember correctly, they transitioned from a unit that actually shot a weapon to a auto hit style weapon, whether 7th ed- templates or 8th ed forward auto hit. I do think that simply including, or bringing back at least flamer templates would fix a lot of issues. They are really easy to use and made a lot more sense. It would auto hit anything that touches the template, at weapon strength, then calculate armor saves and damage. Twin linked or dual flame template rerolled to wound. Not OP but still powerful and easy to understand. Pulling back to a purely dice based system kind of messes things up with weapons that automatically hit.
9th has been one of my least favourite editions of all time. I'm so glad 10th is starting on a high note. I like how you're able to dissect all the problem cases and even see overall trends that were an issue, but for me, 9th was just a clusterfuck of rules overlap. The bloat with stratagems really killed the game for me. I could not enjoy it.
I recently played against a tyranid list that was like Tyrannifexes with flamers and pyrovores, thats it, all his stuff killed a third of my stuff turn one (Which was my tanks), and the rest died the following turns, my entire army just folded, flamers in general seem busted right now.
They had Ahriman and the flamers in a "Tzeentch" detachment. Detachments just need a shared keyword, other than xeno, chaos, imperium... and they all share tzeentch. lol
Ork armies grew to unmanageable levels, Tzeentch was the demon behind the demons you thought were the problem, Votann crafted themselves overpowered weapons, and Drukhari made everyone suffer and feel the pain. GW sure knows how to make flavorful fuckups.
I think my favorite rules mistake was for Trooper 'try again' Bragg. His rules were worded originally that he could throw infinite frag grenades a turn and kill anything within 6 inches.
You say mistake, I say Sly Marbo's got a rival!
Not infinite just very unlikely to stop chaining.
@@mk-ultraviolence1760 Limited only by the number of targets within range. Since the ability let him shoot again if he didn't injure anyone with his autogun, as long as he never fired the autogun he could throw the exact number of grenades needed to kill whatever number of targets was in front of him.
@@mk-ultraviolence1760 you can go for as long as you like, you weren't forced to use your autocanon
It actually never happened because you can shoot again only once and people (especially Auspex) didn't see that
Huge fan on the Votann slide that we got 3 spellings of the word "Judgement".
Judgment
Judgement
Judment
Ju'ment
J'm'nt
J’n’n’t
Jug
As someone who has literally never played a game of tabletop 40k, I find these episodes incredibly entertaining. So, bravo
same
I liked the part where Fortifications were so useless they might aswell not be in the game, infact they weren't, cause noone could place them without violating terrain rules lol
Once upon a time there was a feature of rules bloopers that was in Dork Tower, iirc. They made a collection of them called “Murphy’s Rules”. Some old 2nd Ed 40k rules made it in there. Fun book.
As a necron player i still laugh about how slapped together with duct tape the 9th codex is after all the fixes. They just couldnt figure out how to fix it proper so they gave the entire army core except for canoptek.
and c'tan of course
11:23 It was a Tzeench detachment. Ariman AND Flammers in the same detachment.
How??? Is that like a special detachment or something? Bc they are in two separate armies
@@justinreynolds731 they both have the tzeentch faction rule
@@justinreynolds731 Yeah, you cant use the Chaos keyword, but can use the Tzeench one. You just dont get any boni from it. But since that list had death guard as the main army, that wouldnt mattered anyway.
God soup is so dumb
I did 126 mortal wounds in a single game when the Tyranid codex first released. Maleceptors went brrrrrr to a ridiculous extent.
Not gonna lie, at the very end of 5th edition Grey Knights Razorbacks with Psybolt Ammo and three Inquisitiorial Acolytes was a fun shitshow to live through.
I like the idea of Votann having a "Judgement Ability". Like, enemy units still accumulate judgement tokens, and you can use an ability, like once or twice per game, to give them a strong debuff. A sort of "straw that broke the camel's back" situation, where Votann all get a huge to hit or to wound buff on that enemy unit.
That would make the game a lot more dynamic, while not raising the power level of each Votann unit by default.
I also think Judgement tokens need to have a range, it can be long like a sniper, but votann being like "my one goon can see the tiniest sliver of ur transports prow through the gaps in all this terrain from across the entire map: judgement token." is bullshit lol
I’ve got a proposal to fix a lot of the problems with flamers. I doubt they’ll do it next edition, but I feel it would be a massive fix. Change flamer weapons to be as follower
“Each time the bearer makes an attack, a hit roll of 2+ is always successful (including when firing Overwatch), irrespective of any modifiers or abilities that the target may have.” This prevents any major issues with them not being able to roll ones, allows them to be able to get the benefits of stuff that does extra on 6s (so let the galaxy burn wouldn’t need a flamer specific thing), still let’s them fire well on Overwatch, but doesn’t overcorrect. At worse they’re 5/6 the damage they were, which is a pretty minor nerf and could be easily fixed with points costs over time as you saw what is weak. And it pretty much solves the problem of having to consider flamers as a whole different type of ranged weapon, instead they function effectively the same as any other ranged weapon when interacting with abilities and what not, with the exception that they’ll be good in Overwatch and have a better hit chance than normal weapons (but that’s pretty easily balancable by just balancing average wounds. If you want a flamer gun to be about equal two storm bolters, the expected hits that go through should be about them same.)
The best one I came across was, I think, for one specific squad of marines. The sergeant could swap out their bolt pistol for another weapon. But if it did not have a bolt pistol, it could be given one. So you swap out your pistol for a better one, then get a bolt pistol anyway because the model no longer had one.
You're wrong on the cap on buggies. They were always three to a unit. In 8th, you could have nine of each, and /then they split up/. It was actually a minor nerf to orks (though not nearly enough to compensate for the big buffs buggies received at the same time.
Comin in from a Dawn of War perspective it's so funny that the same issue that made fighting Orks in the game a nightmare (ahem, Wartraks mortar artillery) translated over to the tabletop a decade later
My favorite (might have been 8th) was when knights or other vehicles couldnt fight infantry on the second floor of building even if they were basically at eye level with each other
Lads! great video, loved the recap of the edition... buttttt What about Crusher Stampede and Harlies ? :)
not sure of the edition it was but i remember the grey knights nemesis dread knight doom stack
that came first and second at a torment lol
I'm not an expert on tournament play by any means, but I really don't understand why Dark Technomancers was changed from being penalized for rolling a 1 in the wound roll to rolling a 1 in the hit roll when you consider that almost every coven unit can auto-hit. It almost seems like they were too embarrassed to admit that they wrote the 9th codex without checking the rule in the Psychic Awakening book it was introduced.
Good video guys!
Y'all weren't playing back in the day of the funniest overpowered rule abuse: Nob Bikers.
If you know you know
With the Votann rule I think the way to fix it(besides capping at 5) would be just make it so if you auto-wound, roll a dice to determine the effect...that's all they have to do!! However they now have rules that actively sabotage themselves *sigh*
Very good episode
do you think "using up" judgement tokens would work? like: they wont stay on an enemy unit the entire game. You can use 1 token to auto wound on a 6, but if you choose to do that, that token is then removed from the unit. So you can stack up to 3 and still get your auto wounds to 4, but as soon as you use that ability, the 3 tokens are removed and the Votaan player has to re-judge that unit again.
just brainstorming :)
Wasn't there an issue where Paragon Warsuits in SoB reduced damage by 1... but not to a minimum of 1? So they reduced 1d weapons to 0 damage?
You'd think that one fix to flamers would be to just make them 'hit on 2+', which still makes you expect a hit almost all the time, but still provides the potential for misses and preserves any additional negatives that occur on a 1. Or if they want to keep flamers always hitting, then if there's a negative aspect on 1's, add onto that rule a statement that flamers still roll the to-hit roll just to see if they get the 1 and take the negative.
as if GW ever does ANY Beta Testing of their rules
I always forget Votann exist, weird
To be fair GW seems quite oblivious to orky stuff. A 5th horsemen in the other side showing very week unit would be SAG big mek. This unit shows that GW really do not understand statistics ;P.
if literaly every 9th codex needed a nerf the issue was 8th edition army books not 9th. shitting on current edition content so that old un updated content can feel special doesnt fix any issues.
23:30 Why do you hate necrons so much? Silent King is the only Supreme Commander that can't get rerolls from his own abilities and it makes him nauseatingly unreliable. He is also the only one that can't benefit from his own subfaction. This is what's dumb, not the fact, that he finally felt good to play for three months!
And everybody acts like it's OK and necrons deserve all this crap.
I'm just sad that GW hates Death Guard
I don't even play 40k, but that votann rule just seems absolutely stupid. Am I right in thinking you'd just pile all your judgment tokens on to the biggest threat with the highest toughness, fire at it with something with low strength but a lot of shots, get a million hits which results in half a million auto wounds? Seems incredibly dumb. And if that's the case, does that mean I understand 40k rules better than gw does despite not playing it?
I'm so happy 9th is being burned down
Algorithm comment
It’s got to be nerve wracking to be a rules writer knowing that even the slightest error can and will be abused.
10th will be bad on purpose
My favourite part of the orks and tzeentch issues is that GW don't just test in house they love to send books out early to some battle report channels one of the main ones being tabletop tactics.
Who don't own ork buggies or any tzeentch demons.
Or they send them to some high level Comp players.
Who only own models / armies that used to be broken.
Tzeentch has always been kinda garbage so no one really owned tzeenth.
TT have also stated that when they were playtesters they were told what lists they would be testing at any given time.
My favorite rules mistake is waaaaaaaay back in 5th edition. Honestly it was more of a typo than anything, but RAW, the pyrovore nuking the entire board on death is hilarious
Accidentally didn't specify an explosion range? That's hilarious.
@Dycie Fisk the wording was so bad, it said it hit EVERY UNIT FOR each model within 6" of the pyrovore when it died.
Cram a bunch of gaunts next to your pyrovore, let him pop, then roll about 100 dice for every single unit lol
Ah I remember ... good times.
Pyrovore with 2 unit of gaunt next to it: i have become death, destroyer of world
Who could forget Apothecaries bringing back Invader ATVs each turn.
In an ideal world, they could have made the votan ability work on some sort of a curve where every new tier requires more tokens, but the book was way too busted.
In an ideal world they wouldn’t have written the railguns the way they did. A not heavy lascannon ignoring invulns, and dealing mortal wounds but not mortal wounds getting around all the feel no pains against mortals. And that was just the infantry version. Nvm the heavy one doing 8-12 damage.
Tokens were too strong offenesively and too easy to get. Combined with strong defensive rules and common invulnerability-bypass weaponry on resilient platforms and you have a recipe for disaster
Grudges should be a melee only ability.
Think about it: GSC have terrible shooting for their decent melee. So GW made a mechanic to uplift their shooting.
Votann shoots like crazy, but Berserkers aside, their CC leaves much to be desired. So why not make a mechanic that improves their close combat potential?
I reckon a few things might have worked, like for instance if you attack a unit with judgement tokens then after that attack the tokens are removed.
Or just have it so if you auto-wound with a weapon that has special effects on a wound roll of 6, then you can roll an additional D6 to fish for 6s.
@@sonicwingnut oh without a doubt they should have been removed in the same way markerlights are
Hey Brad and Eric it may not mean much but your honest way of speaking and covering of unique and hot topics in Warhammer has helped to get a lot of my more cynical friends into Warhammer due to your podcasts very nature. Thank you for what you do and never change 👍🏻😎
Wow imagine GW actually making a mistake. And then make a mistake in order to fix their mistake.
I just realized I haven’t been subscribed after 4 months of watching every episode basically on release
How dare you!!
@@alnilam8933 they just pop up in my home recommended and I just assumed I was subbed 🤣
Same wtf
For me, the funniest broken moment was Trajan being a highlarious autoinclude in the codex yet still receiving a points drop in the first balance pass
And Ild One Eye is getting his prices increased several times...
While no one play him. Basically
Another thing that was busted about TSK being core, you could have a technomancer babysit him and have it revive his Triarchal Menhirs and keep him perpetually alive.
But you had to play Szarakhan for that to work and the competitive build was Relentless Expansionists/Eternel Conquerers.
@@andrewcarter9649 Nah, TSK has the dynastic agent keyword, so while he doesn’t have a dynastic code and while he must be the Warlord you can still make it a custom dynasty.
Edit: Scratch that, Technomancer’s rites of reanimation specify that the target must be from the same dynasty.
@@The.Orange.Wizard Yeah, it's a bit confusing because he's both Szarakhan and Dynastic Agent.
The orc one is incredibly significant. Literally right before they literally said they were “going to make sure that vehicles will always have a competitive place on the table” and right after they went quiet and nerfed any vehicle that came out. Buggy spam killed vehicles PERIOD, down to their soul within the very hearts of GW.
Definitely surprised the Gaunt's Ghosts infinite damage wasn't brought up
It actually never happened because you can shoot again only once and people (especially Auspex) didn't see that
@@malakimphoros2164 incorrect
@@malakimphoros2164 Specific beats general.
I think personally it was the bodyguard rule, for absolutely no reason they had to upgrade "look out sir" and with the way it was worded meant you had 2 untargetable characters on opposing armies death staring each other from across the battlefield while the unit that was supposed to take the bullet for them hid away in a terrain piece so you couldnt see them
There was a marine version with a character dred I think but celestine was the biggest offender as she could basically create a minefield area you couldn't enter, and couldn't clear (by shooting her)
If anyone needs an explanation another youtuber hellstormwargaming did a great video where he visually walks through it on a tabletop
one of my favourite rules oversights is that until like the first January of 9th edition there was no rules to explain how to disembark large models
I discovered it when I realised that Illuminor Szeras was legible to embark in a night scythe but was physically too large to be able to disembark without the emergency disembarkation stratagem and they fixed it a few months later by saying that if a model is physically too large to fit wholly within 3" of the transport then it has to be touching the base or hull of the transport when it disembarks
my favorite was saint celestine being immune to damage 1, and paragon warsuits costing 270 point/model.
I'm surprised you didn't mention that Logan Heath SMASHED a Tournament Finals with the booters...so hard it was by Turn 1.
I liked how the Votann thing explicitly counted as unmodified. The whole reason the modified/unmodified distinction has created was to reign in exactly that type of busted shit.
Well it had to be written that way or you get the situation they're in now where handing out Judgement tokens makes your special weapons worse, which is confusing and counterintuitive. They're more balanced now, but also their rules are stupid and backwards to get there.
Heh, speaking of flamers and orks, it reminds me of the burna-wagons back in... 4th? Battlewagon full of burna-boys would roll up, then use Open Topped to attack with all the burnas, but the way it works in 4th for flamers was you had a template you'd use from each flamer model to see how many enemies were under the template and that's how many hits you got, except when you did it from a vehicle, then you just used 1 single template, then multiplied the result x14 and that's how many hits you got.
So my squad of plague marines got rolled up on, not realizing what was about to happen, and the ork player is shortly rolling 98 to-wound rolls at once. I lost that game badly. It was hilarious though.
So yeah, GW's problems with balancing flamers is just a tried and true tradition.
Hmmm, wonder if something reminiscent of that will be possible in 10th with the firing deck changes......
The Throne of God was that balanced Codices to be good against the two that came before it… before those two were nerfed.
But which rule was the Apocalypse? Armour of Contempt?
Being able to take 9 rukkatrukka's wasn't bad; it was their weapon loadout that made it atrocious (indirect, high AP, volume fire, damage 2); Deathguard can run 3x3 Myphitic Blighthaulers and it's never been a problem.
9th edition in a nutshell can be found if you take a detailed look at the Mypitic Blight-Haulers, they're pretty damn stacked when looked at in a vacuum.
Good amount of anti-tank firepower, + an extra chaff clearing gun just as a free bonus. Very tanky for a light vehicle, boasting Disgustingly Resilient, T7, a 5++ invu, 9 wounds per piece (meaning no profile degredation) good target for Miasma of pestilence, and a strategem that gives them excellent protection against multi-meltas. Oh, and enemies get a -1 to hit them in melee too. They're reasonably fast with a 10 inch movement, and they even have a decent melee profile for clearing chaff, swinging 4 times with STR 6, AP 2, D1 plague weapon. And they're cheap too, only costing 110 points per model.
How are they in the greater 9th edition meta? Eh, kinda mediocre. Just merely "Ok". That's a bit fucked.
@@LordZylok Funny you mention this - I actually play deathguard in tournaments and use up to six at a time (don't have a full nine). The "problem" with the MBH is that when in a unit, it's functionally just a helbrute with better movement, better save (5++!) but incredibly weak melee. People tend to just try and lock it in melee with chaff, so you have to either screen them (which is hard because they outpace all your infantry) or fire into melee with their heavy weapons (not actually that bad!). They are actually best used as a tanky blocking unit to move on objectives and prevent obsec units from taking it back by the sheer size of their bases - literally screening the objective off. The major downside and reason they don't do too well is a lack of CORE keyword and reliance on low volume, non plague-weapon firepower which does little to synergise with secondaries.
Personally I think they are the dark horse of the range, and a simple army of blighthaulers and plaguemarines can take on all comers with the right tactical mindset.
Honestly, the Votann railguns were really the only on 6 ability that needed a nerf in my opinion.
Shout out to Abbadon being the best HQ in chaos knights, death guard, thousand sons and daemons, i feel he is worth a mention just for creating the nonsense that is Abbadon walking the dogs
Technically my favorite was a 8th edition thing. The Biovore Spore Carpet. Spore Mines technically counts as a model, and therefore blocked movement within a 1 inch radius around itself (which with the base, came out to be about a 3 inch diameter of nope). While you could trigger the mines to explode, you had to do that after moving into range of them or shooting at them, both of which meant that you wasted your movement for the turn.
Biovores could spawn them ad infinium if they shot with the spore mine launcher and missed, especially before the 9th codex where you could intentionally move them out of synapse range and self-impose a -1 to hit modifier. And each spore mine, even if it was spawned from biovores all in the same mother unit, all counted as individual units so they didn't have to remain in coherency.
My friend played Orks with no fly units. He very, very quickly learned that running forward did not work. This shenanigan traumatized him so much that he still winces whenever anything that even looks like the biovore (like the pyrovore or the exocrine) shows up in my list.
They tried to fix this in the 9th edition Codex by making it so Spore Mines couldn't block movement (you could move through them as if the unit moving had Fly) but that still wasn't enough as while you could move *through* them, you could not end your movement on them or within 1". cue me and several others putting them in such a way that they would block everywhere the models could legally land. GW had to finally put the foot down on this by making Spore Mines cost points to summon and, as of this comment, has not rescinded this.
My friend remains traumatized to this day.
EDIT: As far as I know this never broke any tournaments, but it was just so hilariously annoying to play against. You basically had to be "that guy" to bring this to a match, as it signals you going "I don't wanna win, I want you to hate this game".
Not gonna lie, I wasn't aware of most of these because I always assumed some broken stuff was always happening in the meta scene. That being said, flamers of tzeentch change is so bad, it's hysterical.
I wonder if changing Votann to plus to wound would be better. This way you don't have the nonbo but also you could still roll a 1 to wound so it doesn't seem super OP.
With the increased toughness range in tenth, I hope that flamers won''t be able to deal with heavily armored and have a some trouble with even moderate armor.
my favourite was in the Tau codex when broadsides had core.
They now have core again lol
I liked when GW nerfed Drukhari with various points hikes, so players moved to use almost pure covens and their tourny win rate went up.
and then they proceeded to nerf coven exclusively for months
As a brand new death guard player learning that nurgle daemons were broken at one point breaks my heart
I thought with the judgement tokens it should have been 1 token auto wound on 6 2 tokens plus 1 to wound 3 tokens re roll wound rolls of 1
I would have liked to see the rule changed to “if the target unit have 3 judgement tokens, 6’s to hit count as a unmodified wound roll of 6”. This would make Magna-rail feel less janky.
Wasn't there a Drukhari Succubus build where due to some quirk of writing you could just keep making attacks over and over again until basically everything in melee was dead?
Personal favorite blunder was the Vehicles = Core buff for Necrons.
Specifically making even Character vehicles core. Turning Szarekh into an unkillable monster with perfect synergy for himself.
Bring Illuminor Szeras or play in the Szarekhan Dynasty and you can just keep reanimating the Menhirs.
THEN it specifically says on his datasheet that all damage MUST go to the Menhirs first, superseding the core rule that the model with missing wounds dies before the others.
Compound on it with a Spyder in Szarekhan and you can heal the king even faster than living metal while the menhirs sponge any new damage coming your way.
Amazing
It was in 8th but salamanders had a stratagem where on a wound roll of 4+ you did a mortal wound with a flame weapon. Which is fine for like a flamer in a tactical squad but on agressors it was game breaking and you could get ridiculous quantities of mortals. I only played with it once before they capped it at 6 and 3 agressors killed a repulsor. There also made a relic and warlord trait combo that could make a damage 12 smash captain and they fixed that by saying people where doing the math wrong and it was actually damage 9, which was still insane.
My favourite was the brief few weeks before it was FAQ'd where you could roleplay a helicopter and use BA death company forlorn fury infinite times and get 144 inches pregame movement. It was never really abused at scale but with 3x10 death company if you got first turn it was essentially game over.
The Buggies thing could have been solved by them just letting every buggy after the first take no FoC slots. Note that I said "letting", not "must"; you could choose between it taking a slot or not so that you could still use them to fill compulsory slots if you wished. This makes it different from giving them a Combat Squad style rule while also letting them just be different units.
Actually with the ork thing in 8th you could take 9 buggies of one type, and they split up. Balanced the whole way through, 9th just messed up the balance lol
On some less fortunate but really funny Balance mistakes...
The Demonic save meant that Grey Knights anti-demon weapons couldnt penetrate Chaos Demon saves... But weapons that could ignore any saves *except* invul because they were amazing physically but not against forcefields and demons suddenly could just ignore Demonic Save (iirc Eversor?)
when salamander supplement released in 8th it allowed a single aggressor sergeant to do 24 auto hitting flamer shots 2 damage each wounding on at least a 5+, 4+ dealing mortal wounds, rerolling all wounds. So 24 mortal wounds and 48 flamer damage from the sergeant alone.
I mean Votann happened so quickly because so many TO's were outright BANNING Votann before it was even released. And GW didn't want to lose out on the profit there. So you can say it was a risky move nerfing them before people bought it, but it meant people actually bought it in the first place
Games workshop don't understand that rules stack exponentially, not additively. A guardsman hitting on 4, autowounding on 6? That's fine.
But now that guardsman has AP-1? And 5s autowound too? And every 6 to wound counts as a mortal wound? And there are full rerolls to hit and wound?
For the LoV judgement tokens, I would have preferred there still be some means of getting the wound roll of a 6. So have hit rolls of 6 against a marked target, regardless of judgement token count, count as a 6 to wound; or allow them to still roll to wound even after auto-wounding, which will still count as a wound regardless of what is rolled but gives them at least chance to roll the 6 to wound. So the rules aren't brokenly synergizing nor are they actively working against each other. This is primarily to help the trans-hyperian league, who was already considered the least powerful league before the nerf happened, now they are considered unplayable
My favorite was tau fire warriors getting to ap-5 on their guns, and that wasn't even good enough compared to our crisis suit spam
... and I can't be the only one staring down some salivating try-hard Chad in the forums who wanted "Squats 2: The Resquattening" so unbearably badly that those of us who "could count to numbers bigger than four" were saying in formus before the army was released: '... these rules are garbage because they're *ludicrously* unfair,' and they're over here turning purple screaming: TRUST THE PROCESS. GW KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING. IT'S FINE IT'S FINE YOU'RE SO SENSITIVE YOU JUST HATE FUN.
Oh, I wish they'd removed Judgement Tokens from the Votann Index instead of what they did. Seemingly balancing all weaponry and BS around the assumption that what you're shooting has 2 tokens on it, so the supposedly high tech Votann guns are often actually worse than their Imperial/Tau counterparts. Combined with the entire range needing major point drops, making them not at all feel like an elite/tech tech army really undermined a lot of my enthusiasm for 10th edition. Major feels bad moment...
tyranids have some silly broken rules, here's 3 I can think of off the top of my head
1 - Hormagaunts could turn 1 charge. They can move 6 inches pre-game if you take that adaptive biology, then they move 8 inches normally, but with a stratagem you can advance one unit something like 18 inches instead of moving, and then they can still charge, so with the pre-game move that's 24 inch movement and THEN a charge. They're only hormagaunts, but get a unit of 30 and multi-charge 2 infantry units and those enemy units are just GONE in the blink of an eye given how many attacks hormagaunts have in 9th
2 - neuronthropes could keep vanishing off the board after they unleashed psychic powers, then re-appear next turn after movement phase to zap zap....before vanishing again until next turn. It was all thanks to a single stratagem for 1CP you could spam. Your enemy couldn't attack them as long as you had command points.
3 - there was some crazy combo you could do with the big psychic beastie, I don't remember what it was exactly, but you could pump out something like 24 mortal wounds in a single turn from that one unit, which is INSANE.
Random question that may never get answered…
Do you guys ever plan on doing AoS content as well?
So I just found you guys like… a few days ago (might have been weeks, it’s been a crazy point for me atm) and I am really jiving with what you guys are doing with this. However while I do own 40k armies (my Grey Knights can even push up to the 2000 point level), I’m more of an AoS player (kharadron are best and if you don’t agree I’m putting names in a book somewhere!). I’ve heard that you guys do have AoS armies, so I’m super interested to see if you guys do end up dipping a toe every so often into AoS!
Funny thing about DT "fix": it didn't fix the problem. A bit later on, we had people with 9 chronos cheerfully roasting people with s5 flamers. Why couldn't GW just return the obsession to the way it worked back in 8e? Wound rolls of 1 dealing damage/killing the shooting model would be so much better and more elegant.
Ok my very first game of 1k points of 40k I ever played at a store was 9th ed. I was playing Ultramarines vs Orks since I only had about 1k points from the Dark Imperium box and a few other units to get it up to 1k points. My opponent just fielded 1 Warboss (not sure what exactly) and the rest of their points was those fucking trucks. I got tabled and didn't even take out a single vehicle. Honestly, it turned me off playing the game entirely for basically a year.
Sadly we already know GW doesn’t play test and as was mentioned Gw only makes a handful of models and copy pasted them.
Look at any codex or specifically chaos knights. You’ll see the exact SAME big knight used three times in one picture as an example.
9th was a dumpster fire and this is from someone who was forced to quit in 7th. I’m worried about tenth even though I have enough for five different armies but shit like combi weapons being all melta when I play and use combi-flamers for sisters…
in balance discussions for smaller games, sometimes people who aren't into 40k will dismissively refer to GW's balancing, and I'll jokingly refer to one of these instances. they won't know what I'm talking about, unfortunately... but yeah. might start having to link this episode
I think the funniest balance mistake was nerfing an army that nobody played and taking almost all of their cool shit away, and giving it to a smaller group of that larger force, and letting them have access to tons of equipment the other army did. Tempestus Scions got nerfed in 8th edition _and_ 9th edition, and they can't take tanks, they can't take most support units, they can't take most vehicles, only Taurox Primes (which also got nerfed with the removal of the [Blast] and [Assault] keywords from most of its weapons, making it simply inherently worse,) and you can only take 2 aircraft due to that moronic change, so now you can't even have a flexible army, it can only do one thing.
That was the stupidest nerf that I've ever witnessed for _any_ game. Why did they do this? Oh, the last time any new Tempestus Scions models were created was well over a decade ago, but the Kasrkin? Which are the Cadian members _of the Tempestus Scions,_ get all the regimental doctrines that got removed from Scions which made them effective, they just can only have one gun. But the Kasrkin...which are _part of the Scions,_ can take Lord Solar, but the Scions can't. What the hell?
With flamers & flamer-like weapons sounding pretty strong why are the flamer heavy marines (i.e. Salamanders) not OP in a similar way? I'm someone who's not familiar with the tabletop rules, I'm just asking out of curiosity.
It's a big, quite complex game with all the (suc)factions around, but boy, oh boy did GW drop the ball on some of these releases. Even as a more casual fan who is in this madness more for the hobby than the gaming side there have been so many dumb moments where the game / company's sales approach just ruined the entire experience.
I have zero problems with loosing a game if I bring a fun, thematic list and the other player is more focused on efficiency. But there are simply armies that cannot keep up even if they'd tried, while others even in the hands of a fluffy or less experienced player are just vastly superior. I gave up editions ago on the idea of 40K ever being balanced, but at this point GW has even given up on lying to us that they're trying to balance things. Flamers show the lack of actual betatesting, while Votann demonstrates the utter greed. At times it feels like GW are intentionally trying to destroy the game.........then I wake up and realize that we're not the actual customers. We are the resource being mined for the shareholders and investors. ;-)
As a lover of playing votann. I agreed with the nerf to votann judgment tokens. I think we can all agree that auto wounding on 4’s, and it counting as 6’s was too much. My only gripe was the point increases. Fortress and berserks yes, but I feel like hearthguard and warriors didn’t need a nerf. Especially with warriors being our only troop choice right now, and hearthguard aren’t really a problem. Seeing as they only have 2 wounds, -1 damage. It should have been the bikes to get the nerf bat. Ok love you bye!!!
yeah but if the the hearthguard has a medic they keep protected in the center, theyre basically regenning 1-3 guys every turn assuming you dont whipe them (which isnt easy to do w their toughness and two wounds each). Imo the fact that the medic is part of a regular troop unit, and the player can choose not to allocate wounds to them till theyve all died- justifies them being more expensive than standard troops.
@@lemonworm Hearthkyn warriors* have 1 wound except for the theyn. The unit on its own is 130pts. The med pack you have to pay 5pts for, and can only be used once per battle round. Also, using one CP a turn just to possible bring back 1-3 models in the unit isn’t really that crazy. Warriors are tough, but there not as tough as people make them out to be. I could go on for a good while about thing that make the unit good or bad, but for a base pt cost of 130. 155 if there souped up. Nah not worth it.
@@GillySquid They are only T4 4+ save in the end
I think Judgement Tokens could have been okay as they were in power, if they were slower to build. It was the conjunction of being so powerful and the army having so many ways to just dump them all over the enemy that was the problem. Like wound on a 4+ to hit is super nuts but if the army is 'slow to get going' and has a weak turn 1-2, and 3 tokens is only feasible turn 3, or even 4 and up, then it would likely work out. I feel like that's the design they were GOING for with Votann; start slow, hang in there, build up grudge, finish strong. But they gave them too many options to drown the enemy in judgement tokens and then had to nerf it all into the dirt.
I am wondering why they did away with the balance that demons used to have a while ago. Flamers still got a bunch of shots, not as much as the 9th ed ones, but most minor demons outside of Khorne only had an invulnerable save. Also, if I remember correctly, they transitioned from a unit that actually shot a weapon to a auto hit style weapon, whether 7th ed- templates or 8th ed forward auto hit.
I do think that simply including, or bringing back at least flamer templates would fix a lot of issues. They are really easy to use and made a lot more sense. It would auto hit anything that touches the template, at weapon strength, then calculate armor saves and damage. Twin linked or dual flame template rerolled to wound. Not OP but still powerful and easy to understand.
Pulling back to a purely dice based system kind of messes things up with weapons that automatically hit.
*UA-cam Pleasantries*
I haven't played 40k in years, but I enjoyed listening to the shitshow it became every time a new codex was released. :P
9th has been one of my least favourite editions of all time. I'm so glad 10th is starting on a high note. I like how you're able to dissect all the problem cases and even see overall trends that were an issue, but for me, 9th was just a clusterfuck of rules overlap. The bloat with stratagems really killed the game for me. I could not enjoy it.
I recently played against a tyranid list that was like Tyrannifexes with flamers and pyrovores, thats it, all his stuff killed a third of my stuff turn one (Which was my tanks), and the rest died the following turns, my entire army just folded, flamers in general seem busted right now.
Good choices, however Craigslist bodyguard spam and resurrecting Invader ATVs could also have been on this list lol
GW would probably have less trouble with this if "you automatically hit/wound" rules were removed and stopped ruining the bell curve for rolls.
When you played one of the few lists that just roflsstomped the rukkatruk spam list xD best of luck wounding belakor and my keeper on 6's xD
They had Ahriman and the flamers in a "Tzeentch" detachment.
Detachments just need a shared keyword, other than xeno, chaos, imperium... and they all share tzeentch. lol