Are Real Guitar Amps Still Better Than Modeling Amps?
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- Опубліковано 18 кві 2024
- In this episode we discuss the advantages and disadvantages of Big Amps vs Small Amps vs No Amp (Modeling or Profiling Amplifiers) in today's music. Amps discussed : Marshall, Fender, Vox, Suhr, Park, Orange, Hiwatt, Ampeg, Fractal Audio Axe-Fx, Kemper Profiling, Line 6 Helix and other amplifier models.
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Big amp.... small amp.... no amp.... getting cramps.... it's still Rock & Roll to me. - Silly Joel
LMAO good job
Damn, that was a good one!
Well played, sir! Well played, indeed!
You sir... are gonna go far in life ;)
Dark Side of Synth - You never know. He may be an elderly guy. ;-)
When I went to see bands in nightclubs back in the late 70s/early 80s, the band's stage gear was typically a Marshall full stack or a Fender Twin Reverb for each guitar, an Ampeg or Sunn 8x10 stack for the bass player, a 220W/80W Hammond Leslie for the the keys, and a full set of mics - at least 6 - on the drums (snare, kick, toms, hihat, crash, ride).
Today, the guitars are running through a 1x12 Vox AC15, the bass in a Roland 1x15, the keys also in a Roland 1x15, and either no mic on the drums or maybe one on the kick only. AND THE BARS STILL TELL THEM TO TURN DOWN.
People are finding out now, with the invention of the internet, that a 50w amp isn’t 2x the loudness of a 25w amp, and that there really isn’t a point in buying a 200w amp if you're playing bars, and if you're playing stadiums then yoiu're going to be miced up anyways
Musicians and fans were into the big sound back then and listening in general. The first time I remember the change to a "Garden party scene" was when Hootie and the Blowfish started to get popular. Only the first 30 people were listening and the majority were there for the scene. Live, real rocknroll bands are virtually extinct now. Hardly any real performer/entertainers left in the world now.
honestly I've own a twin reverb..love the sound but never turn it more than 3..and I kill my back...for our time with is no cars or no parking I figured out a simple vox vt 20 and some pedals..things you can carry in the subway..
I mean amps only got so big because PA technology wasn't very powerful or good yet. But now with affordable and great loud PAs in every club there's no need for giant amps anymore other than for looks. Combine that with the invention of modelers and great sounding affordable small combo amps etc, there's VERY few situations where a 50-100w stack makes any sense. The only situation I can think of where large powerful amps could be useful might be a big outdoor show that has an underpowered PA or not enough mics; so basically a poorly organized outdoor event.
LOL Some of those bars used to have very insolated walls and two doors to get inside. They were that loud.
BEST QUOTE OF THIS VIDEO: "You can't have a Kemper without a bunch of really good amps to model" ~ Dave Onorato
Glad those amps are taking up space in someone else’s house!
Helix has changed my life. You don't have to be a tweaker but it helps. It has saved my back, my ears and I play a LOT more since gigging with this. The routing capabilities alone are amazing and once you get good IR's in it the Helix really shines. I find that even with in ears I like to crank an FRFR in front of me pointing up towards my strings to get the controlled feedback and wallop you lose if you don't push air. The cool thing is you don't have to push as much air. I think that would change the attack our man in the hat was talking about. I think you can play the same on it as an amp if you set it up right. I play in a Genesis tribute act as well (Genesis Visible Touch) and I have guitar, bass, variax and double-neck bass/guitar all hooked up at once and have Line level sends to my soundman plus individual control over my monitor (which is basically my cab) on stage. You can't do that on any rig other than a Helix. I could go on all day but it really has changed my life for the better. I just use the same amps. 90 percent of the amps you won't use but that 10 percent is worth their weight in gold.
This was really interesting -- beyond just the discussion of the amps themselves, I love how this chat goes into the evolution of how and where musicians work, and how the popularity of certain gear reflects that for each generation.
I agree, Nahre! The analogy I think is acoustic piano versus digital piano. They each have their place and their uses; one isn't better than the other, one simply has options and choices. What do you think?
That’s a really good point. I guess too the type of gigs can certainly determine gear choices. We are currently spoilt for choice...if you’ve got the cash!
Late to this video, but it really got me thinking about the musicians I play with in my mid 20s age group. I use a solid state amp, but everyone else just goes through their PC. I don’t want the grief of a tube amp and most of my friends don’t want the grief of any box.
Back in the late 60's Kustom amps with their tuck and roll in candy apple colors were the thing.
"Rock and Roll Excess, As Digested by a Classical Musician." 😎💜🤙🏼
This debate we have as guitar players about digital vs tube, about digital vs analog is a debate a lot of industries are having or have already had a few years back. I'm a professional photographer, aside from playing guitar as a passion. I had to change all my gear back in 2008 because my clients (magazines, newspapers, institutions, corporations, etc) would not pay for negative films and chemical stuffs any longer. And portraits, reportages, images had to be delivered the same day they were shot. We could not go to the lab like we used to. It was 10-11 years ago. The gear had arrived to a point of quality that the digital image was more convenient, quicker, more usable, more flexible and cheaper to produce than the real deal. Today it has even gone a step further as the technology in our pro gear forces us to become also videographers! Digital has completely changed our way to look at the world and tell about the world. My profession has had to reinvent itself totally. We had to invest in very expensive gear (cameras, softwares, hardware) and training courses because we had to adapt to new skills and transform our profession. Is it good? I don't really know. Many great photographers could not and would not keep up and disappeared. It's always a great loss when creators decide to quit the game for other reasons than the quality of their speech. For me the only relevant question is : is this digital revolution meaningful in its art form? Is digital guitar sound bringing something to the table? Is digital image bringing something unique in the evolution of Arts?
Thanx guys for the show.
for every single person that "could not or would not keep up" that was "lost", orders and orders of magnitudes of people that could not afford analog gear were given a way to express themselves with the same or better quality. there is no lose in that situation. I say this as a professionally trained commercial artist that was a sophmore in college when Apple introduced the laser printer. I immediate knew my option of getting a $65K/85K year job right out of college doing mechanicals had ended before it even started. I changed my major to video/film production the next day. That took longer to democratize and lower the barrier to entry in $ and knowledge the same way but it did eventually. I wrote my own 3D modeling and animation software in the 80s/90s and transistioned to just writing software for a living in the mid-90's. The software industry is being transformed and lowering the barrier to entry as well, just not as quickly. There will always be a very high end in creative careers that 99.999999% of people can not reach, but the more people that can contribute to the arts the better. And yes, software is an art form as much as anything else that requires creative thinking.
I actually started on digital photography and gave it up when I learned how to do black and white chemical photography. Digital bores me to death. But I'm a hobbyist, not a pro, and I have enough income to afford it. If I were a pro it's be digital 100%.
Well, in the guitar world it certainly does. I watched a video where a musician built an axe fx patch which included several effects, a couple of amps blended together, different cabs, mic positions, etc. Try doing that with analog equipment! Of course just having the tools doesn't make your art better, but the few that excel in this new way of doing things are bringing new sounds and pushing things forward
Jarrod Roberson Yes I’m with you when you say that it allowed so many people to get to express themselves. That is a good thing for sure. But i’m more reserved when one can see that the evolution of arts is driven by the evolution of the gear, rather than by a pure creative and philosophical thinking.
Digital gear lets me explore varied sounds and artists much more quickly, easily and inexpensively, which inspires me to play more and use different techniques that go with the varied sounds, which makes me a better player. So for me, the answer is absolutely "Yes".
My first guitar teacher (when I was around 14) had a Marshall 8x12 full stack in his tiny apartment above some shops. Most of the time he'd play and teach on an acoustic but for a treat he'd crank it up play some Hendrix or AC/DC on his Les Paul standard. Visceral and unforgettable impression on me. Shame less and less people will hear that now.
I'm too poor for tubes, so I bought a Peavy Vypyr...
Once I learned how to use it, I don't regret it. I'm just a hobbyist, so it serves my needs well.
I think y'all need to plug a kemper into a 4x12...
Seems like the point that you kept coming back to is 'I like to feel the air of a 4x12, it feels so huge and punches you in the chest' and then you compare that to playing a Kemper through studio monitors or IEMs.
You're comparing the speaker, not the amp. You can plug a Marshall head into monitors with a cab sim and you can plug a kemper into a 4x12 without a cab sim.
Rhett even said 'Kemper doesn't sound the same as a marshall head running through the power section of an amp' - Yes exactly, because you aren't running the Kemper through the power section of the amp, which is what you would be doing if you were playing it through a cab, like the Marshall you're comparing it to.
To me, this video should be called 'Are real cabs better than Cab sims?'
agree. if you "need to fell the air behind" just put an axe fx or whatever you whant over a 200W poweramp. the point is if you like what you get compared with "hardware" ones. to me you could find something you couldn't get with a phisycal one.. better to have the choice.
This is exactly what I was thinking! A huge part of why I love my 60w Fender 410 Deville so much is that those Jensen blue speakers start breaking up at full volume (this amp only has 2 volumes lol) along with all the air they move in the room. I have yet to hear a cab modeler really emulate the sound of speakers breaking up like this, so even when cranked through a PA where lots of air is moving, it's still missing that extra something. But this amp is one of the loudest amps I've ever heard and is absolute overkill for literally every single situation I've ever been in outside of recording it in an iso booth so I'll probably just end up selling it and getting a Helix type unit.
AC-30 - 70 lbs of small
Good point. An extremely heavy dude for its size.
The question is, when are we going to use this exciting new technology to define a new sound for the guitar, instead of replicating ad nauseam sounds that were stumbled upon decades ago? We didn't get the classic overdrive sound from someone trying to replicate old gear, we got it from someone abusing new gear and realizing that the sound coming out of the speakers was frickin' cool.
your interesting observation reminds me of all the movie remakes that were being made in the last couple of years (new SW Trilogy, Jumanji, King Kong, several superhero remakes, etc.) - hardly any mainstream movies with completely original scripts & content, it's driven by nostalgia to a large extent. Could that be a broader phenomenon across different forms of arts currently...?
Alan D Moore: " ad nauseam " bravo, notevole ! Apreciate, wow. pls excuse my eng :)
The answer is now-go ahead and do it and let us know what you come up with!
Electronic music
@@sarahtonin4649 I get what you're saying, but in fact *many* guitarists have "come close" to Jimi's sounds. By all means he was an innovator of incalculable dimension, but over the years his sounds, tones, techniques, and tricks have all been convincingly replicated. That's not to say anyone out there sounds just like him, but in fact nothing he was doing then stayed out of reach as his fans and devotees sought to imitate. This doesn't detract ONE BIT from his genius or his contribution, but it's similar to Van Halen and others: It was earth-shattering at the time, but extremely talented people came along later and figured out pretty much all the "secret sauce."
So thankful to be gigging in the doom metal world where no one blinks at two full stacks and two bass amps. That midrange chest feeling y'all talk about is why I love playing live music
Haha! An AC30 falls into Rick's "small amp" category :D. Seriously though, great discussion, gents.
lol yeah I thought that was funny too. Those things are hella loud.
Compared to 100 watt plexi or SVT ampeg . Seriously you can change your life for the worst playing a plexi at full volume and standing in front of it. Forever changing your hearing.
I traded my AC30 for my brothers Fender DeVille (4x10) cause I was tired of lugging around the ridiculously heavy Vox. I thought about casters but after one gig using the Fender I was sold.
I even made pinky swear no trade backs! Haha. The DeVille isn’t as heavy and sooooll good.
It’s LOUD. Madison Square Garden didn’t even bother mic’ing it up.
I was a circuit designer for Texas Instruments in the late 70's early 80's and geeked out on guitar and stereo amps. Both guitar and stereo amp designers were searching for tube sound with SS reliability/cost then. Some of those solid state amps used JFET and MOSFET transistors in some stages which distort/clip similar to tubes (unlike BJT's which were capable of higher power). The secret is even vs. odd order harmonics when they start to clip.
The theory of vacuum tubes is quite complicated, and the ability to model of the current-voltage relationship is not exact due to manufacturing considerations. First there is no such thing as linearity. All electronic devices are nonlinear to some extent, and very nonlinear in saturation. Readers should download Reich's book, Principles of Electron Tubes. Neither JFETs or MOSFETs follow the same "approximation" equations that govern tubes. This is apparent in digital modeling which falls into the trap that an FFT can capture what a Fourier Transform does with an analog signal. Furthermore, since a tube amp relies on an output transformer, this is one more nonlinear device in the chain. Eventually the digital modelers will reach Nirvana, but they need to get their theory down pat first.
My pioneer elite stereo amp has mosfet and sounds incredible! But for guitar amps I will only use tubes. Mesa rules!
For overdrive, I think the power delivery is one of the biggest factors. I love when the voltage sags on the transient, you get a unique compression.
Standing in front of a cranked Marshall and banging an E chord on a Les Paul is the original visceral experience because it's literally shaking your guts and it's a thrill. But I'm in a condo nowadays so my Axe Fx and a good pair of near-field monitors sound so good and don't get complaints. I still have my Marshall 30th Anniversary half-stack, but it's now effectively an art object in my living room that never gets turned on. These digital modelers are like a dream where you're a kid at an amusement park, but instead of ride, there's every great guitar amp and speaker and pedal and studio effect you've ever wanted and you've got all day to play with it all.
I prefer an A chord
@@kianshahrokh AAAAAAAaaaaaaaay.
You can get lost chasing tones in those amp modellers though. I like having my custom designed rig where I plug in and have my few tones right there so I can just get to playing.
@@joshuamichael4312 I need to get an amplifier for practicing and developing my sound. Thoughts on what to start with. I know that's vague. Where should I start ? thanks.
@@crazywisdom2 I just picked up a Yamaha thr30ii and I'm blown away. It's a desktop amp, fairly small loud and sounds great. Sounds like a tube amp. It has Bluetooth for streaming backing tracks. Line out for recording. Go look it up, it's great.
“If it sounds good, it is good” someone smarter than I once said.
Eddie Van Halen's music teacher
Not sure if he is the originator of it , but Yngwie Malmsteen said this exact thing in an instructional video. I'm not really the biggest Yngwie fan , but I thought that was a brilliant sentiment.
Always heard it attributed to Joe Meeks
I'm an amp guy, I can say that I'm amp fanatic. I love the feel of the valves, it's so satisfying and irreplaceable. personally I have a 50watt amp with a 1x12 speaker in my apartment and a modded Marshall DSL with a master volume and it's amazing how they can sound great at low volumes. Nowadays we have outstanding amps for every need and every situation and there's nothing satisfying like the attack of a valve amp. And look what boss just made, with that box everyone will be able to crank his amp and make it be as quiet as he wants or record it directly via USB. Anyway it's undoubted that modeling amps are really practical and solve a lot of problems, and we also can say that they reached a good quality of sound that appears really credible. It's right to say that in a live situation none in the audience would hear the difference between a real amp and the digital version, but to me they sound really different, and most of all the feel is different. Even if the audience could not spot the difference we don't play only for the audience, we play also for our personal satisfaction, like we don't have sex only for our partner's pleasure but for ours too. We live in a magic moment where we have an infinite number of pretty good options, everyone can find the one that is perfect for him and sound really good, but in my honest opinion valve amps are still a step forward.
Absolutely! Never cared much for modeling amps compared to a good tube amp.
The audience will spot the difference if you play better when using a real valve amp.
I can't play without a real valve amp. Or even solid-state, in a pinch. Modeling sucks the life out of me.
What’s the boss thing you mentioned?
@@84kjk boss waza tube amp expander
@@mattgilbert7347 they won't
You three got some good back and forth and some good genuine laughs in this one, I thoroughly enjoy these casual podcast type videos, nice work.
LOL. I have played a mic'ed Roland Cube live for years for classic rock. Sometimes hidden behind a stack. Other players always compliment me on my sound. The secret is out!
tone comes from within
yes i love my cube tones, even recorded with it once with its phaser effect
Always been very impressed with the Cubes. Sound pretty amazing for the money. My guitar shop always had a cube to test effects on and only in that case it sometimes sounded crappy. Built in distortion always sounded better than any stompbox you'd put in front of it. Newbie guitar player me always felt like the clean wasn't actually clean or something. Always asked if I could drag a different amp there to test pedals, even a crappy 15 watt Marshall. Do you use built in FX or external?
Those Cubes always surprised the hell out of me whenever I hear them. I played briefly in a death metal band and the lead guitarist literally ran a cube into a poweramp rack and the tone was 10x better than the other guitarist with a giant Mesa Boogie stack. It was hilarious.
I want more of these roundtable discussions. You 3 have great chemistry and a ton of knowledge to offer. I would to see you three breakdown recording process, guitar set ups, and maybe have you 3 play the riffs that changed your life
I, like, big, amps and i cannot lie...
My axe and chord don't want none un less you got 4 12's hon!
The smaller the better.
Are you making Rick's hand gesture when he said "big", too? 😄
😂
@@brianlee5455 Four 12" JB Lansing's? Gourmet!
When you said it “sounded like NAMM” I thought you were talking about the Vietnam War. 😂
me too!
That's the joke.
I swear I thought he was talking about Vietnam as well !
Me too!
Sam Haas Yeah, I imagine napalm and machine gun fire are loud as hell
Love watching you three together. You all have different experiences and knowledge and are all incredibly talented. It's a great mix.
Right now Im using a small amp because im just starting out. I dont ever really plan on gigging so big amps dont really interest me for my own playing. I dug hearing everyones thoughts on the state of gear today. Really cool topic.
Good to see the crew back together! Love you guys!!
Younger people don't seem to grasp the cycle phenomena. If you live long enough, you can watch how things go out of fashion and come back again. Rhett has a Moog shirt. I had a minimoog that wasn't cool anymore when the Yamaha DX7 (digital) came out. I recently sold the Moog for $4200 and the DX7 is worth about $250. Get rid of your tube amps at your own peril.
I'd love to get a Kemper for $250 in a couple years. Sadly it already outlived the decade still being the best. Seems it will continue to be so.
I had a 1965 fender bassman tweed (dad got at an auction for $500)between the ages of 15-19 it died and had it worked on and still didn't want to work. So I sold it to a friend for $300 broken and bought a surround sound system. Worst decision in my music career. Buddy went to music engineering school and got it going and still has it.
Hopefully the DX7 will get into fashion again soon, too! That thing has a charm of its own.
I agree. Thats why I still have it. My original Axe-FX took the same hit in $value but I still have it too. I love digital stuff. I"m just sayin.
It has nothing to do with cycles. Moog is an analog synthesizer - for a long time (it's getting close now) digital could only roughly approximate those warm analog sounds. The DX7 is a digital synth, it's much more easily recreated as a plugin or digital instrument than an analog synth. Most professional Yamaha keyboards include DX7 sounds and past digital sound libraries, the same principle does not apply to analog synths. Also the DX7 was far more mass produced than anything Moog. Also the DX7 was/is a nightmare to program...
Thank you-I really enjoy these group talks!
Thanks for this UA-cam discussion with its vocabulary and equipment references. Fifty years ago, we had precious little knowledge of other musicians and their practices. I'm watching your channel with the hope that I can compose a decent arrangement.
Nice to hear you guys giving Lab Series amps some love. I’ve got a rare K-5 (the keyboard amp), took the old tweeters out, and it sounds great.
I'd like to see Rick do an episode on the Beatles recorded guitar sounds at EMI. What went directly into the board, amps , etc.
Pretty sure they're blockers
I tend to be a tone snob. Used to have a Boss GT-10 before I started playing tube. Got a Peavey Classic 50, was convinced the GT-10 sucked tone, ditched it. Went all analog, got an all-tube AC30, worked insanely hard to perfect gain stage tones for several years. Got a tone I really LOVE, added an analog delay and experienced tone change in my dry signal. Started thinking about the costs of expanding my stompbox pedalboard, adding modulation effects, adding proper power supply, LOTS OF MONEY! Dug my GT-10 back out, did a factory reset, dimed the volume knob and pedal, A/B'd between guitar straight to AC30 and guitar into GT-10 with all effects bypassed and into AC30. Could hear NO difference! So I started dialing in effects as transparently as possible with the goal of enhancing my amp tone rather than changing it (just like I would with my stompboxes), and have been having a ton of fun and feeling way more inspired! Which is funny because A.) I'm a total tone snob, and B.) I'm a total tone snob. So even with an older modeling/multi-effects unit that a lot of people actually hate, great results are available. A little real-world experience with the actual physical gear goes a long way when dialing in tone on a digital modeling spaceship. So, I think I'm gonna keep all of the above :)
Good video. I've been using plugins for recording almost exclusively for almost twenty years, but still used tube amps, and usually 50W or more, for live playing. I could never get modelers to cut right live. That opinion changed with the Kemper. The key for me, aside from the cut, was that I let go of the question, "Does it sound just like ?", and instead asked, "Does it sound good?"
Love the idea of 4x12s as furniture
Love Rick’s laugh at the furniture comment.
I have too many cabs but don't want to sell them.
My TV is on a 2*15 and I'm using a 1*15 as a side table, next to my armchair.
There's an Orange 2*12 being used as a bedside table.
There are two 2*12 PA cabs in the attic.
I also have cabs in 'proper' use.
That's about average, isn't it?
@@pd4165 - Sure is! 😊
LOL. 4x12s comes from a time when adressing air movement to the audience was the guitarrist resposability. Nowadays, just let the PA do the job! Why crack your back moving 4x12s?
All three. Enjoy it all. Use it for the intended purpose. Fantastic discussion. Thank you guys for the intellectual debate and honest opinions.
Finally some reasonable, balanced conversation on the real vs modeling amp topic! Great job Rick.
I'm with Rick, I like having option's. Live outdoor's we have the Marshall DSL 100 with a 4X12 A cabinet, indoor's we use a BlackStar HT club 40 1x12 combo with a 1x12 expansion cabinet. On a budget it sound's very close to the DSL. We've tried multiple option's from Orange, Line6 and other vendor's that just didn't work, I also have a 1966 Fender BassMan amp, AMPEG Bass rig as well as a 1989 Fender Twin, and a Vox AC30 that I love! I've tried the amp model's from multiple vendor's including Marshall, VOX, even TCHelicon (that was over $1k wasted) and they just don't have the feel of a real Amp.
Just a hack home office hobbyist player, and the Kemper with studio monitors is the best thing I've ever done for my enjoyment in playing. I'm not playing loud (late at night, wife's sleeping), and can get such a variety of sounds, that sound good at low volume. I have more fun with this setup than I ever did even going back 35 years as a kid. I have fun playing, so I play more, practice more... My 40w Marshall DSL makes a good stepping stone for our fat cat to jump up onto the widow sill. lol I've never turned that amp up past 2, so kind of defeats the purpose.
Minus a few minor details, I could have written that myself.
@@nogripes So true. I don't get crank my DSL40 very often but when I do I'm so glad I got an amp that was "too big"
Almost all of the kemper profiles sound the same to me…or very similar. Which ones do you use, and how do you get more varied tone without changing guitars?
So many guitarists refer to their amp sound as if they chose it. Bottom line is they got whatever amp they could afford, or whatever was loudest, and that became their sound. Claiming creative genius for something that they got stuck with or stumbled upon accidentally. Cranking a Marshall up to 10 isn't creative genius. It's just what was available.
Indeed. I have to cope with a MG and it's really sensitive on how you dial it in. For example the gain stage is supersensitive. There's no need to crank it because after that it sounds garbage. If not talking about a tube amp less is more. So that's what I've been playing with. No disrespect to anyone intended (if such is perceived).
I love this. I never got the idea of 'my sound.' I have a lot of sounds I like that are totally different from each other. For me I'd love to have a high class modeller someday soon so I can really have fun with this range of tones and maybe one day get a few big old amps if I have a place to play them
back in the late 90's i jammed with this bunch and the dude had a laney half stack and it was great for the alt grungy stuff we were doing, great sound for that, but i wouldnt use it for metal. its worth the extra time and effort to try amps out first instead of just doing like you said, being stuck with whatever you could afford.
Wow, great commentary in this video. The comments about modeled amps creating overwhelming number of options really resonates with me. I dumped most of my modeling gear and moved to a 65 Princeton Reverb clone and some of my favorite pedals. It's very simple and the limited nature nature let me focus on my playing/recording and not my rig.
Totally agree, wish I had a Helix or whatever when I was gigging and rehearsing. Love small amps for recording at home, but our producer used a combination of amps and plugins and I'm proud of the sound we got on recordings when I listen back.
i used a marshall jcm800 for years. used a baffle and ran it on 7. sounded phenomenal. i switched to a kemper for weight and volume issues. i have found it still have to be loud to be right. the speaker struggling is key to a great guitar sound.
and the reaction of the speaker will influence your playing . At least the combination of You, the Guitar, the Amp- and the Cabinet is the full instrument .
@@MrTONESHOP yes sir!
Yeah, I'm a big fan of using the right tools rather than making certain types of gear a religious thing. I have a large and small tube amp, Kemper, and misc other pedals and older modelers. They're all valuable and I use everything I haven't sold. :)
Rick: "I'm interested in knowing what you all think..."
I think this was an awesome discussion. Great job, guys.
My big amp now is a maz 18 and a lot of time I have used a blues jr when playing out at gigs. I think that I have used almost everything thats available today in the studio...it is the golden age of guitar gear, but I find it's to the point of distraction now. One thing nobody mentioned was using a real amp with a good load box and running an IR in DAW. This is someting I do a lot and it really works well..kind of best of both worlds. I also use s gear sometimes...best ampsim for me. Great video!
Talking about loud amps, please do a video on how to prevent hearing damage. I think this would be interesting not only for musicians but also for people going to concerts.
I have 9 guitars and a few big and small amps. Lots of care and feeding involved, like changing strings, tuning up the tube amps, etc. So I decided to simplify things. I bought a used Pod Xt to play with and liked it, but wanted more. So I decided to jump in with both feet and bought a JTV-69 (HSS strat style-but I never use the magnetic pickups) modeling guitar and rack mounted Pod HD Pro-X along with a light weight digital clean amp (Crown) and a 2x12 cab with tweeters. I couldn't justify spending even Helix money, let alone Kemper or AxeFx money. Best investment I ever made. I never even pull out any of my other guitars or amps. I'm not a tube snob or even an old school snob because this new rig does SO much more. Are the models a perfect representation? Of course not! But I can always get a sound that is exactly what I need. And more importantly, I can do all the work setting things up ahead of time rather than fiddling with knobs all the time while I'm playing. Since I do mostly covers, I need a large variety of guitar, amp, and effects sounds that would be nearly impossible to do with "real" gear. I also can put all those sounds (including alternate tunings) in memory presets, so when I'm playing, I can sequentially go through those presets during a show, no muss, no fuss. Yes, it does take a lot of time initially, but I find that preferable to search for the right sounds during a show. As for adjusting how to play through digital vs "real" equipment, I find that playing one guitar is a whole lot less adjusting than playing strat, then my SG with a different scale length, or an acoustic 12 string with the thick body. All those things take adjustment on my playing much more so. I could go on, but you get the point. I'm all in at this point for all of the reasons above, and all the excellent points you guys made in the video. Thanks for making this video! You do a great job, Rick!
Thanks for making these videos, I always learn something from them. I just picked up a Katana Boss 50 watt and love it. I may buy the artist series if I start playing out again, but, for now....the Katana is so flexible, easy to dial in patches and is light.....I may never go back to a tube amp. BTW, use the 0.5 watt setting and usually don't turn it up past 4-5 and it's plenty loud. Thanks again!
Thanks Dave for mentioning the attack behavior of the Kemper. To me it’s a big issue and the main reason I ditched the Kemper and returned to tube amps.
At some point I compared the Kemper running a profile of a Tone King Falcon with the real thing, both monitored over the same cab. I recorded a tune with my JM on a ditto and started comparing. I couldn’t believe the difference and checked and re-checked: all the attack transients were gone on the Kemper. Tried each and every parameter on the Kemper to no effect. Eventually I simply started dialing through tens and tens of commercial profiles from different sources I had stored on the Kemper, and they all demonstrated the same mellow attack, like playing an acoustic nylon string guitar. Once you spot it you can no longer ignore it.
Strangely enough this behavior never gets mentioned. Maybe it’s less noticeable when playing heavy lead sounds with lots of amp compression, no idea.
I love tube amps. Big, small, or mid sized, I like them all. I play with other musicians. It's a ton of work moving the amp, cabinet, and pedal board around. Also stage "volume" issues are a real thing these days. So I get the digital modeling side. Recent developments have made the modelling amps sound great. Modelling is a big cost saver for working musicians. That will make modelling a successful product even if real tube amps are more fun to play and slightly better sounding.
So I had a dilemma when deciding on getting a new gigging amp. It was between dishing out all this cash for a Kemper and going all digital or staying true to what I love in classic valve amps.
I ended up picking up a classic Vox-AC15 and grabbing a Tone King Attenuator to handle the volume on stage and in apartment (I live and play in NYC) and its been working fine.
There are so many alternatives these days!
Hi Rick. I really like your videos on the greatest guitarists of the decades. I would love to see you do a list of the greatest or your favorite producers. You have really opened my eyes to the incredible impact producers have on the music. Thanks!
Great chat as always Rick! The only thing i'll say about all this is there is a point at which the amount of time we spend learning the technology and fiddling with settings is a very SERIOUS COMPROMISE. How many times have we felt inspired to play and by the time it took us to get our rig setup and running did we lose that vibe due to the sheer frustration of learning the parameters and other technicalities related to getting our equipment to cooperate? Thats the conundrum...unless you're a technical wizard and can navigate this stuff in short order, the tradeoff sometimes seems too great...guess we all have our own idea of what is tolerable but lets not get so caught up that we spend less time with our instrument and more time figuring out how it all works!
In the Studio I have grown to like the Boss Katana 100 Watt Single 12" - Love the 5 Watt Setting. I don't have the luxury of the Iso Booth.
Having owned big amps and now being a Fractal user, a couple of thoughts...
When using a program like AX8 Edit, I find setting up my Fractal to be "as complicated as I want to make it". I have the attention span of a fruit fly when it comes to manuals and I had no "option overload" with my AX8. You can go and set up an amp/cab combo and turn the main amp controls and get a good sound without going into all the crazy tweaking options. The only "deep" option I use are the low and high cut filters to remove mud and harsh high end frequencies. This lamentation of "Oh... There are just TOO many options!!!" is just BS.
The one thing that is becoming a big issue is stage volume. In my own experiences as a weekend warrior playing small bars, the owners have become very stringent about volume. I got rid of my JCM800 because I couldn't get it to a volume where it sounded "right" without it being stupid loud and destroying the overall mix. I got the Fractal and run it direct to the board, and get a great sound in my wedge and in the FOH. Regardless of where my volume gets put in the mix, the guitar sound stays constant. As was mentioned in the video, even arena guys are running rigs backstage into a 1x12 and a mic. John Pretrucci and Rick Neilsen are two that come to mind.
Ask big amp guys from the 60s and 70s like Pete Townshend and Neal Schon how cool tinnitus is...
My main amp is a Groove Tubes Soul-o-Single: small and light combo with a 10” speaker. I own many different tubes (mostly NOS) some very old. I’m amazed by how different all these tubes can sound (even same types) and there are many possible combinations, even with only 1 power tube and 2 preamp tubes. Haven’t tried them all out yet, even after 17 years of using this amp. This is my way of doing amp modelling!
Great chat, I felt like I was in the room hanging out with you guys. My take is the same as what was stated around the 10:00 (and throughout the video thereafter); it depends on the situation.
I also think what’s ideal for most venues are the 50 watt heads with 2x12 cabinets, like the EVH 5150 III. Those are going to be loud enough without being overkill on stage.
Now, let’s talk recording. Playing with virtual amps are, of course, easier to work with and there’s a ton of options you have. Not to mention many have small home studios these days and it’s not practical to crank up a half stack.
In addition, I think the perfect recording scenario, when possible, is recording your rhythm tracks with a real amp, and laying down leads and any ambient style tracks (that need heavy effects) with something like the Kemper or plugins.
I used 4/12 Marshall cabs for years, now I use combo amps, they usually run through the monitors anyway. Some of the smaller more intimate clubs the big amps are just too much, ya can't really crank em. Where a smaller amp just is more suitable. Bigger venues, by all means, bring out the stack. For me it just depends on the venue.
Agreed!
Rhett, you are SO RIGHT!!! *WE ARE IN THE GOLDEN AGE OF GEAR!!!* 🎸😎💸😫
And before that we were in the Golden Age of Rock. Now someone please combine both. ;)
As shown by my wallet
Love these videos. The 3 of you together is awesome
28:51 This is what I thinks it's the ultimate important thing as an guitar player, this dude just put it out perfectly. Amazingly good content, thanks!
Hey Dave !! Long time no see !! Don't forget that Tom Scholz recorded the first Boston album without a Rockman.
Brooks Hood The second Boston album was recorded before the Rockman had been invented; not until Third Stage.
The greatest amp ever was (even if it was only in a movie) the Back to the Future AMP , simply the best re-creation of what we thought of as kids.
🤣 yeah
Perfect guitar therapy video, as I have changed my world of guitar to play thru eleven rack because of the constant complaints to turn down.
Just noticed Daves shirt!! I just started playing with a new band and our guitar player and bass player are good friends with George from Metropoulos!! I'm building a couple custom 100W walnut boxes for a couple heads he's doing, Just thought its crazy what a small world it is in the music ind, love the channel and love to see the good stuff out of Detroit everywhere!!
Yes, even if the "listner" cant tell the diff, I still can because of the touch and response i feel as a player. Now the tech may close the gap soon and it's probably close even now.
Pushing Air Is Rock N Roll! That is the truth!
Loved the episode! Thank so you much for developing such interesting content for musicians. I would like to hear your opinion on using a tube amp with a load box and impulse responses, versus miking up a real cab. Thanks again.
Great video Rick! I’m with you, I love having options, i don’t have your collection but I have my 100watt plexi style rig, I have my 50watt pedal platform rig, and I have my direct rig for when they don’t want any stage volume and I love using my iPad or laptop to practice, experiment, sketch out stuff, and ultimately record, Bias has some really fun stuff and Universal Audio’s plug-ins are amazing as mentioned in your video!
MORE bass stuff in the future please. We bass players feel left out
For practice and fly rigs yes, modelers are great and easy to record direct. But tube amps are more fun!
Thank you guys for doing this!!! Even for a bass/music enthusiast not playing any more this hits so many spots I am in the realm of Ricks age I grew up with the 70s and all the great music that was made at that time and I mean no style limits existed there. That was the time when the racks got bigger and bigger - great time ;-)
great chat on this one! I'm a gigging musician and front of house guy (think hundreds of people, not thousands). I used to play bass with a crappy metal band that had the 100 watt marshalls and we sounded garbage, they were either turned down and sounded fizzy and piercing in all the wrong ways, or they were too loud for the venue we were in. Now when I play bass it's a sansamp to FOH with a fliptop for me on stage, when I play guitar it's my helix for fake amps 99% of the time, or my AC30 the 1% I'm playing outdoors or somewhere where they want the stage volume.
As a front of house guy, I've had to fix SO many "tone players" fizzy tones. The best guitarists I've met usually think ahead and try to bring the right amp for the right room. And honestly for live applications modellers typically sound better in the house because there's no bleed, no compromising sound for volume, and no issue of the stage amps being out of phase with the mains for the audience, the sound you practiced with is the sound you're playing live.
When I'm recording, I love really taking the time to get the right amp with the right mic(s) in the right place(es). Getting it all dialed in is magic.... and then I grab a DI and double it with a modeller. Some of the best guitar sounds I've ever recorder were a real amp mixed with Bias Amp.
All this doesn't even mention the value I've gotten out of my helix when I'm practicing at night using in-ears, demoing/writing songs where taking time to carefully mic up an amp would kill the workflow, playing quiet stages, or showing up to a rehersal and just plug in a few cables and I'm ready to go.
If I were playing venues where it worked well, I'd LOVE to run a multi amp rig and ditch the in-ears. But until that happens I'll just keep rocking that amp-sim life.
As a new Axe-FX user Rhett forgets to mention that 10 minutes tone chasing becomes an hour real quick, so 3 hours to tweak a patch goes by reallll fast LOL. Lots of fun, not to mention it's always sparking creativity when I play through it.
How much of that time tweaking is playing? Just curious, no judgement
@@niels9875 I'll make a patch, and try different eq/pedals/cabs/stuff while writing/jamming . How can you tweak a tone without playing and feeling the differences you've made?
Ed said, in the Roth years, that on stage it was so loud it made the hairs on his arms vibrate.
That's loud! Lol
I remember going to see Ry Cooder and David Lindley maybe 30 years ago and when we were taking our seats I was amazed by the amount of small amps onstage. There were a few Fender Champs, a White, a small Vox but this was all among maybe 20 different amps, perhaps more. All low power and I don't think anything was more than a 20 watter. The guys played an amazing set and everything sounded huge. I remember reading an interview with RC and he described how he loved to work with small amps and that it is a lot of work but you can do it.
Great topic Rick. It's on the minds of guitarists today for sure. I have a large assortment of half stacks, combos, UA plugins, rack multi fx, pedals and a Kemper rack. I sent the AXE FX back. I record and play out professionally, but have a great straight gig on a TV show, so music gets what's left after family time. I couldn't agree more with everything you guys covered here. Some thing you missed is the combination of rigs. The best, to my ears, is my Friedman Small Box 50, JCM800, 2-4×12's, pedal board fx and my Kemper, running in a wet dry type of setup for live. I think the other thing I would add, and you guys touched on it while commenting on attack, is that on the digital stuff...the harder I play, the louder it doesn't get. I'm satisfied with an old Blues deluxe and a old 52 Tele reissue straight in. Keeps me honest.
THIS is the modern debate. With the right plugins it's so hard to tell the difference and honestly in a lot of cases most people can't hear the differences. Even using an older Line 6 POD HD500 can be re-routed to use IR's and it makes them sound as good as anything else out there. I love a real tube sound. A BIG amp sound.
It's not the sound to me much as how it acts playing it. The whole modelling doesn't do what your fingers do to the strings with a good tube amp... sure, it might "sound" the same, but they just don't respond the same. Stuff like the Fractal modellers are great for effects, but I don't want ANYTHING to do with amp or cabinet modelling... at least not at this point in technology.
@@michaelcarey9359 I think that, for me, it's a convenient way to get recordings done in an apartment but live I really wanna feel that amp sound. I've found ways around it by using my Quilter Labs stuff. I can use a small cab and still run directly into the board as well. I really feel like I need that amp response.
@Rumy 73 Indeed! I have a small wall of amps. Small to large and modeling amps and stuff. I've found that all.of them have their place. There are lots of way to update the older modeling amps and use their base amps and people seriously NEVER know the difference. Some people bash this brand or that brand and then are shocked to know you just crushed it on that brand they hated. Haha!
You are so right! Find what works and just crush it!
@Lucas Robinett Haha It took me a LONG time to accept them. That was ONLY with making alterations. The ONLY amp I liked from them until recently was the DT50.
I still try not to gag when I admit that they have products I like. Haha
As I get older, 69 this month, I can’t carry those amps around. I use a line 6 into 1 or 2 QSC K10s. It just works.
Lovin' it! Been playing for money since 1958, lotsa small clubs, duos, trios, four-piece groups country and rock and blues, many years with Fender Supers and Twins and years with Kustom and Peavey, love the sound of four 6L6s but modern MOSFET is great too. Now I'm playing through a Peavey Studio One (maybe thirty watts?) that I found in a pawn shop for $30. It does EVERYTHING I need with my old Strat. If you need more, drop a mic in front of it. Wish I had the $1000s back spent on big gear over the years--and I'm not even talking about the truckloads of gear the arena rockers are talking about. All I really need is a satisfying ball of sound around my head so that I can get into it! And I can carry my whole setup into the room in one trip! Really appreciated your discussion!
You guys are SO Spanning the Generations of Equipment of Analog developed over 50 years Vs The Digital World starting 2000 now the year 2020 took 20 years to get to this point where your trying to compare or Predict "how long of time to get the other 5% of digital development to Complete Build Match the Analog Sound" is done each day by using your existing equipment and tweaking in the "Studio" TODAY. Myself as a starter common folk on a budget of $500/yr on any gigging (now being double duty) to build our own Studios of sorts is what I will do to get the last 5% sound no one will notice. Great Point. Such a GREAT Video ! Thank you.
Rick, I appreciate all you do. I’ve been playing over 50 years. Own LOTs of gear. Finally parted with my 32x8 analogue board. Although my chops are decent, I admit I’ve never stood in front of duel 4x12s on a big stage. So take my opinion with a grain of salt.
My guess is you are the same guys who 20 years ago were lamenting the coming of digital recording as too sterile....but I’ll bet you don’t pull out the reel to reel often. Your video started all pumped up on the power and authenticity of these big amps but as you analyzed further you all came around to agreeing that the raw acoustics of the room you’re playing negates the subtle sound you perfected in the studio.
I am a physician. If you went to an audiologist and mapped your frequency range, my guess is you can’t even hear the nuances in your sound. I know I can’t anymore and you’ve been standing in front of 4x12s!
I still see my patients with my stethoscope around my neck but I’m the first to admit that it’s a showpiece. 30 years ago it was indispensable. Today I would never make an important treatment decision based on what I hear through it. It’s been replaced by ultrasound, echo, digital angiography. But still the old guard doctors teach training residents how important it is to develop good skills with the stethoscope. It pretty much belongs on the ash heel of history. Unfortunately, the big amps will end up in museums
Until an amp simulation, gives me the same weight, and throw in a mix as, a live amplifier, I cannot compromise. This past weekend, I recorded a player using a Marshall DSL40, a 1-12" combo. I blasted the tracks, and you could still hear them 20 feet away from the monitors, down the hallway with the control room door open. Do this with simulated amps, and they almost vanish, they have no weight, and zero throw. Nice to practice in headphones with but, for a professional recording, amps win every time imho.
What’s the address of this museum ?? What do say we break in after hours and crank those amps until the windows break ??? lol
There has never been a time in my life when I could practically play a big amp for any length of time. So I’ve never gotten used to them. As much as I do enjoy small amps, I’m trying to move to no amp because I want consistency. I want to use mostly the same gear no matter what the context. Most of all, though, I wish there were more companies developing new technology weren’t spending so much time on emulating old technology. Sure, the old amps sound great, and emulating them is good, but there ought to be more focus on creating new sounds.
I completely second that.
With the advent of impulse response capturing I'm sure there's a lot of room for creativity. The first modeler that allows you to design your own amplifier circuits to emulate is gonna be huge for new sounds too. Emulating amps that only exist on paper would be so cool
Another UA-cam video I actually watched all the way through. Yay! I like your vids. I use a fourth alternative. A pedal board with quality tube pre-amp (Effectronics Blackbird) and a cab sim (Two Notes C.A.B.), then into an XR-18 mixer (or whatever) and out into two Bose L1 compact line array amps. I also use a SY-300 guitar synth mixed in separately. This setup is also used for keyboards and electronic percussion. Flexible, great sound, and the guitar sounds great using a Strymon Sunset and Revv G3. The drawback is the complexity, cables, and keeping gain stages consistent (lots of FX). I tried the Amplifire, but too much fiddleyness. It tries to do too much. The blackbird is simple, has a gorgeous clean channel, a good dirty channel, but really shines when used with good distortion pedals. The Bose L1Cs are very loud. Louder than I will ever need.
Can’t wait to see the video on the profile vs real amp sounds!
Have they fixed the latency on the Kemper. My friend has one and it sounds great but, when I play super fast lead runs, it is super apparent. I know that standing 10ft from an amp adds up too, but this is worse. Other than that, it's great, but it still amazes me that some people can't hear it.
Some just aren't sensitive to latency. It drives me crazy because I can hear it so clear.
Let's not forget that Eric Clapton used a Fender tweed Champ to record "Layla & Other Loves Songs" and "461 Ocean Blvd." That's all of 5w through a single 8" speaker; add a Tube Screamer and a reverb pedal and who needs a Twin Reverb?
My brother had an original 56 tweed champ... The tone is priceless.
Jeff Back recorded using a small Fender Pro Jr 1x10 with fantastic tone.
Good point, but then I always preferred his "loud marshalls" tone with the Bluesbreakers and Cream.
Love you guys when you are together. Real music lovers, real guitar lovers, honest opinions and great advice and info. Best Guitar channel - hell, best music channel on the web!
Only amp I ever really loved and owned for 20 years was a 1970s Marshall Bluesbreaker 2 x 12. This amp made me sound good no matter what guitar I plugged into it. I lost it in the 2008 crash when I had to sell it to pay the rent for £600 ($800) along with a beautiful Les Paul for about $1500. I now have 15 guitars of all shapes and sizes but have Line 6 modelling amps as - like most of you guys were saying - lugging 4x12s and heads around when you haven't got a crew to do all the work is just insane.
Having said that, back in the 70s they made musicians out of granite cos the Bluesbreaker had just one handle on the top and it was impossible for anyone smaller than Hulk Hogan to carry that mutha up a flight of stairs lol. Still sob at losing it to the dumb recession. Anyway, music never dies. We rock on ever more 🤘🤘🤘
I have been using Amp Modeling software for about almost 10 years now. When the software first came out I was not very impressed but since that time I can honestly say that the software and plugins keep getting better and better every year . I have an original '65 fender super reverb amp that I use basically as a monitor and to create those sweet " feedback " harmonics . A lap top , audio/midi interface and foot pedal with amp and speaker modeling along with virtual effects and I believe this is really the way to go . I do not have to spend hours and hours tweaking my setups because everything is saved and accessible with a foot switch . I can choose between hundreds of different Amp, Speakers, Mic setups and custom effects combinations all with the foot switch .
My wife said, “It’s either me or that Marshall!”
I’ve bought 5 more amps since I left! 🇨🇦
I love big amps (heads) into a loadbox (fryette or the new Boss Waza) for volume control and then mic that. Not a fan of impulse responses etc.
Totally agree, the Fryette is the best investment I've made in many years and you have a great effects loop. Have fun with your computer amps boys, I'm keeping the Marshalls
I have gone to a simple 5/10 watt custom champ amp combo, all hand built from scratch, finger jointed 1 x 12s pine with vintage 12" alnico speaker. It is small, 30 pounds, easy to maintain with just 3 tubes and takes pedals well. I mike it. I love the tone and never heard anything digital sounding that good. The warmth & clarity it has with a custom tone knob by pass switch, just having a volume knob, is amazing.
I just stumbled into a few incredible vintage amps at a "barn find" which I have decided to document over time. Fender Delux Reverb, Fender Twin Reverb, vintage Marshall White Vinyl 100 Watt Head with slant cabinet, Fender Bassman amp and few others. I just got power turned on up there today, so excited to try out this stuff!
I've tried almost everything. Everything has it's place.
But without at least one great sounding tube amp around to plug my guitar into something vital is missing.
Strings > magnetic pickups > tube amp (any size you want) > speaker moving real air : nothing else is quite the same.
And yeah if you listen to tom petty albums (and many others): small tube amps like champs, princetons, etc sound GREAT.
It's not "the same" as a 100 watt marshall on 3-5 with a 4X12 cab murdering eardrums. But it still sounds great. It's tactile. Air is still moving. Tubes are still squishing.
Totally different thing from all the digital modeling scenarios.
What about the UA Ox and the boss waza amp expander?
I have a Fender Mustang GT, Peavey Classic 30, and a Peavey Valveking 212. Here lately I have been using my Headrush MX5 and Headrush FRFR-112 more than my actual amps. Ease of use on that for me has been a real thing. That MX5 does way more than I know what to do with, plus there are so many more options with it that I don't have to shell out extra cash for.
Really interesting discussion. For me personally I dabble a bit in live music, often times being a session guy for the local symphony orchestra when they’re doing pieces that require a guitarist. For this application my Helix is better than every tube amp in the world for 3 reasons: 1- I can turn up with my guitar in 1 hand and the helix in the other, and plug straight into the PA. 2: I can be turned right down as often the parts are textural and shouldn’t be jumping out of the mix. This also helps the others so they aren’t deafened by stage volume. 3: I can run a sub mix out of the desk into the helix and monitor myself with some studio headphones, which is very useful. I used to use a Blackstar Series One 45, which I love and often use when at home but for modern live gigs it’s very difficult to beat modelling purely for the convenience. As you rightly say it’s not 100%, but it’s 95% and that difference you usually can’t hear live. I can understand the debate in live rock/metal applications as it would probably be easier to hear the difference live.
Years ago I got a Zoom G9.2tt and honestly I've not really felt the need to buy any other amp or effect since then (except wahs but that's a special case). Maybe that's why they stopped making it...it was too good :O
Not familiar with the G9, but the G5 is amazing. I dread the day mine stops working.
Every time Rick namedrops somebody, I can't help but wish Mick was there to honk his horn.
Currently in Jazz School, and definitely small amp. I recently picked up a 100watt modelling combo amp. Its loud enough to gig with, it's got XLR Outs to go into the PAs, and it's light so you can carry it on the bus and never have it out of your sight. These are the kind of things that I look for more than tone. Every room is going to be different and every group you play with is going to be different. Often time just gotta work with what you got, but if what you got is, reliable and always with you, and doesn't break your back, then that's a win.
I began playing out in the late 70's with a full Hiwatt 100 stack and an ES 345. (Alex Lifeson was my big influence) My first gig was in a decent sized rock club, and after playing so long in a practice room (my basement), I was so blown away with the way my amp sounded cranked. That "bark"... I'd not heard that from the amp before. It reflected off the back wall of the club back in my face, the vibration came through wooden stage floor through the bottom of my shoes... A thrill I'll never forget. Those days are gone forever, but I feel so fortunate to have experienced that.