Great video and demo .... subtle differences ... and now here comes the cork sniffer: - tubes are not used at their typical power dissipation spec. (well maybe the 6V6 ... )-> different characteristic - same output transformer ... not matched to the tube specs - same HV voltage supply (was it tube or silicon? -> another factor) - sniff sniff sniff Anyway ... getting an different speaker is getting you much further soundwise ...
Great Video Kris! Of course you should listen to this video with good headphones or speakers... not your iPhone... For my "5 cents" you showed clearly the following facts: 1. The Output Tubes will definitely influence the sound and feel of your amp, and you can fine-tune to your personal taste. My personal favourite is the KT66. 2. Switching from a 6L6 to a EL34 will not turn your Amp from "Fender" to "Marshall". There's so much more about it. Thanks for this video and using the TWS SingleSix. Obviously the TWS SingleSix is a great platform for this, as its design allows swapping Power Tubes without any adjustments.
I think I ended up with the same conclusion as Kris. Tube 1, sounds good a bit of flub Tube 2, bit bright Tube 3, sounds phenomenal Tube 4, muffled not great Tube 5, characterful. So my favourites ended up being 3, 5, 2, 1, 4 with 4 being a distant last place. Was stunned to find out what the tube I liked was when revealed. Very cool breakdown. Quite like this.
I agree, but KT88's sound like that. Ritchie Blackmore had them in his Marshall "Major". Check out a good Park 75 amp demo and prepare to be floored. They become monstrous when driven.
@@GCKelloch They are driven here. And in this comparison still my personal least favourite. So I wouldn't seek them out. But if it's inspiring to someone they'll make it sound great because their expression translates aurally.
@@GitShiddy Driven harder, though. KT88 are a comparatively high headroom tube, but more "crunchy" than a KT66. The issue here is the plate V of the amp is not up to the KT88 spec. That's really why it sounds dull and mushy. I too prefer a nice KT66, but that Park 75 amp sound is to die for.
Hi Kris, great content and a great job with the subject matter..!! well done... As an amp builder I can tell you the single greatest influence over any amp will be the speaker... A speaker model can make or break an amp,... the next greatest influence would be the pre-amp tube tied to your instrument input jack. This gain stage has by far the greatest amount of amplification factor of any tube in the amp's circuit... the rest is all minutia ... as i sometimes say... 'Picking the fly crap out of the pepper'... lol Now, that all said, that pre-amp tube location will still be subtle changes as you change from one brand of 12AX7 to another.... I would love to see a few swaps of 'brands' of 12AX7 pre-amp tubes in this same amp you used... that would be fun !! Again, well done !! 🙂
My own humble conclusion about all these kinds of things is this: when talking guitars or amps, we're talking about complex systems with lots of individual components. Changing any single component will likely have an effect versus the unaltered original. The question then really becomes how much of an effect and is that effect perceivable in ABX true blind testing situations. Maybe, maybe not. But the more components one changes, the further the drift you get from the unaltered original and then the effects become more and more noticeable, especially since the changes all stack together. Not exactly a genius conclusion. XD But it is the one that makes the most objective sense. The use of the looper pedal here is one I have been shouting from the rooftops for years. :) Take the inevitable human variable totally out of the equation. Superb video Kris. I would also submit, similar to Glenn Fricker's view, that the higher the gain signal used, the harder it can get to truly hear the difference blindfolded.
The differences are in compression, resonance and harmonic content & balance. Tonal differences have to do with plate impedance within the circuit. All those factors are also affected by the speaker impedance curve. You notice it make more difference as the tubes are driven harder.
An amp design factors in the sound as a whole. The preamp stage has a lot to do with it as well. I can use two of my amps as a comparison of how different they can be. One is an Ampeg V-4 head with 4) 7027a power tubes that can bring the amp up to 165 watts at the plate. No matter how loud you drive it, it will not distort. It's used for a great pedal format. I also own a Soldano slo 30 head that has 2) 6l6 power tubes. In the preamp stage, it can have clean, crunch, overdrive, and plenty of distortion even at low levels. It all depends on what you want to use it for, the same can be said about guitars.
Kris-- thank you for making this video. It was really helpful and informative. I think the power amp tube changes were most noticeable when the amp was distorted. I was listening on earbuds and I could easily hear the difference between, say the EL34 and the KT88. Very cool. I'm sure it took a lot of time!
I liked your comments about KT-66's. I've designed a lot of tube circuitry, and those are also my favorite output tubes for guitar amps. Some of my fellow tube circuit designers also characterize KT-66's with similar adjectives to yours. Another factor that is not mentioned often enough: Negative feedback (NFB) around the output section will linearize the response to some extent--that is, so differences between tubes will be somewhat diminished (though still there, obviously). When you get a chance, try a couple tube swaps in an amp with zero negative feedback. Preamp tubes also have characteristic distortion/overdrive sounds. For example, old Telefunken 12ax7's ($$$) are prized for their crystalline sound in hifi amps. But they don't overdrive that gracefully. There was a Yugoslavian manufacturer, "EI", who made what appeared to be cheap tubes. In fact, tons of them were microphonic. But when hand-sorted, those were my favorites for gradual overdrive in guitar amps. BTW, the KT-88's also sounded great in your demo.
Nice work, Kris. Some things worth noting: The power tube in the SE class A amp used in this video only generates even harmonics. So, the stronger 3rd harmonic normally present in pentode tubes is not represented. Finally, even different brands of tube types can sound significantly different. FI, the rebranded Shuguang “TAD” KT66 has one lower Voltage parameter than the original Genelex or Russian Gold Lion KT66. It is still a real KT66, but sounds a bit weaker and brighter. The JJ KT66 is more like a KT88. JJ makes a nice KT88, but you might try a GL KT66 sometime to compare. The GL sound warmer and fuller, assuming you get a good one.
Excellent video, very informative! Personally, I liked the 6V6 the most, it seemed a bit brighter than the others to my admittedly damaged hearing! But mostly, the differences were so minor, that a slight adjustment to the EQ of the amp would easily compensate for it. Great work!
The sound of power amp distortion is really the sort of sound that modern pre amp distortion designs are trying to emulate, and it's never quite the same as a real power amp compressing and becoming more harmonically dense. If the tone, distirtion etc is pre amp based, logically the output tubes should be suited to high headroom efficient reproduction of the sound the player has selected. This is a mire convenient way to use the amp in a real- life live situation, but short of the GrooveTubes STOG ( which has its own built in attenuater after the power tubes) or another real power amp plugged into a separate " power-soak" type device ,you can't get any kind of realistic power tube distortion ir harmonic generating character. The point I'd raise is that particular tubes sound different according to the design of amp they're in, so you can't turn your Fender twin into a Marshall by installing EL34's. Obviously certain tubes are selected because they complement and work well with certain circuit designs, so when you hear an EL84, it's probably in a Vox Top-boost or clone, 6V6's are usually associated with lower powered Fender amps like the deluxe, EL34's are tied up in one's mind's ear, so to speak with old plexi Marshalls ( probably cranked), so what you hear in any one amp will have smaller differences tube to tube than if one hears any of them in an amp they were suited to, and these legendary distinctions are more related to the amp sound overall than the power-tube "sound".
It's just an extra stage of gain without a tonestack lmao... Just put an extra tube distortion on the FX loop without any eq and there you go, enjoy your "power tube distortion.
These tubes may be pin compatible but they have different power ratings. For example, a 6V6 is rated at 14 watts the KT88 is rated at 42 watts, and the others are rated at 25 watts. So, are there other concerns besides sound?
Very comprehensive and well thought out comparison Kris. I found the differences subtle but recognizable, the KT88 suffered as it was an "elephant in a canoe", not suitable for this circuit. For me, as an amp designer and builder, the most important parameter in tube swaps is whether the amp used has a feedback circuit. The most commonly used feedback loop is from the OPT to the power tube (Champ 5F1) or to the power tube driver (Champ AA764). Feedback tends to even out response of the different tubes and make them quite similar. I do not know if the amplifier used has a feedback loop, I suspect it does. If so, disconnect it and you should hear and feel more differences. Another criterion is the different output impedances of the tubes used. Each is optimum with different output transformer primary impedances. Single ended amps such as this tend to use a "middle value" impedance if tube swapping will be an option.
Hi, thanks for the comment and for watching the video. This amp is a true Class A, single poweramp tube amp with practically no negative feedback. Is that what you mean with feedback loop? I’m just a player, not an engineer 😅
@@KrisBarocsi "Practically" means "none"? If so, then yes, the differences were subtle. My favourite amplifier for comparing certain tubes (12AX7, EL84) is the VOX AC30, zero feedback. Thanks again, good stuff.
@@KrisBarocsi Feedback is used in power amps to make a more linear response across the frequency range. It makes the amp more stable and is typically used in high power applications. It makes the measured specs look better, as well. Its a design choice. Some people like it, while others don't. There are 2 kinds of negative feedback. Global and local. Any time you are talking about negative feedback in the context of a discussion like this, global negative feedback is implied. An amp can be designed with, or without global negative feedback. Local negative feedback is applied to subcircuits within the amp. Its only used in specific areas. As far as I know, all power amps use some negative local feedback. So, any time feedback comes up, 99% of the time, global is what they are referring to. Also, single ended doesn't mean an amp has just 1 power tube. Its how the tube is wired. When you have more than 1 power tube, they can be wired as either single ended or push pull. With multiple power tubes, push pull is the more popular option because the end result is more power.
You did great on this & nailed it. Tubes types don't matter for the hype they get. Anyone saying otherwise believes def needs to practice more & worry about their gear less.
This was an interesting video! And well done as always! Thanks Kris! By the way, I know you are talkin' about real tubes. But I have a Blackstar ID:60 TVP combo. The TVP section of it lets you choose the power amp tube model. It has a very noticeable effect on the sound and the feel! I like it a lot (and miss it on other modeller amps)! It has a KT66 option that is (one of) my favourite(s): it makes the sound of an s-type guitar just "more starty", more quack, more bite, more… dunno. (I can't tell like you if it's more compression, more drive or more midrange or what - but it just sounds cooler for my ears. )
Great video demonstrating the subtle differences! I prefer certain tubes over others but in the end it all comes down to the player to decide how important these differences are. Subtle touches in sound are for subtle players, and these will matter FOR the player. If you feel motivated by a small change in sound, it will impact your playing.
I think this is where Jim lill gets misunderstood he really never says things don't make a difference he just trying to show you what makes the most difference so you can concentrate on that first
Thanks for making this video. Agreed....Yes, very subtle difference yet obvious. My stock has more bottom/punch but after changing new. More mid and clarity.
Hey Kris! You really Spot the Matter! this is a Superb Video! and really well done! I'm glad for the part You pay attention to the Player's feeling VS Loop ''flat'' response. That's the Main point in the end.....as always Right?!
I recently had some of my amps biased with 5881's, replacing the 6L6's. I have long preferred the 81's, as they are less boomy in the bottom. Sound really fine!
Very good. Very true.These things should be done with a clean(ish) amp, as you did. Indeed, a very small difference in sound , and this is even with different types of tubes, not even the same type by different companies. One other question. Ruggedness, reliability ?
Thanks for this video, Kris, always appreciate this kind of nerdy stuff! 👍My favourites were el34 and 6v6 with kt66 and 6l6 being quite neutral sounding in a good way and the kt88 the least favourite, a little too dull for my ears with this amp in the blind test. That doesn't really surprise me, cause i tend to like el34 and 6v6 amps, even if the differences were small. Cheers Kris!
Things like tube bias, and many details of an amp's circuit like negative feedback, number of gain stages in the preamp, how the eq section is designed, the output transformer, how stiff or loose the power supply is and the combinations of these factors are what truly make different amps "sound" different. EL84's (which you didnt demo) can lack a bit of headroom while a tube like a 6550 or a KT66 or KT88 have a bit more than most and the rest fall somewhere in the middle... while this effects tone and feel a small amount it is indeed small out of all of the attributes of an amp. Even an EL84 amp can be built to have pretty good headroom if the amp is designed with that in mind. Obviously one would not choose to build an amp with EL84's if a really loud clean amp was what you were after and not every amp with EL84's sounds like a vintage Vox. Anyway the real answer is tubes matter a bit if you are designing an amp but they are all just amplifying devices and how they are actually implemented in the circuit is what actually matters.
Nice video Kris. I am like you, I like the KTs the best of the 5. But to be honest I hear more of a difference in the distorded clips, certainly because the power tubes are working more in this setting. But like Phil McKnight often says, this tiny difference can certainly be compensated by the EQ on the amp or with a pedal. So I would not make a big deal of this tube swaping thing, unless you go direct to the amp with no pedal ... I am not sure this is a very typical kind of setup for most guitar player afflicted with GAS like we all are ...
We lie to ourselves, how ever you get YOUR sound is up to you. Everything has an effect but what goes on tape vs what you’re ear needs to make your hands happy. Happily tube free since 1998. I still have an awesome tube amp… it just needs a crap ton of work to get it running again, and its weighs about 50 megatons. Oooh Fender why you put one lil handle on a 160kg combo!?!
Great!!! This is after listening to the first four minutes. I hear the 1and 3 brighter with tighter low end. 2 and 4 warmer with some top end roll off. 4 is the darkest to me with some low mids push. 5 is my favorite because sounds full and with a wider and more balance frequency response. Differences are not that big indeed but to me noticeable enough to have a preference. Then went back and listened again twice. It is 3 my favorite. It does what I said 5 did. There is no more low end tightness on 1 and three. It’s the extended top that makes you feel that. So my favorite 3 followed by 1 and 5, then 2 and didn’t like 4 at all on that amp. Now that I saw the complete video makes sense to me what I heard because among all tubes in the comparison kt66 it’s been my favorite on the amps I’ve built. I’m guessing that if that’s an amp that you swap the tubes and no bias adjustment is made, the kt88 is not on an optimum bias point. Maybe running cold I guess. Anyways. Great comparison, very nice!!
I agree. About the bias: this is a single ended, single tube class A amp with barely any negative feedback. That’s why bias isn’t necessary. But as you said, the KT88 might just not be as ideal as the others. Unless you want a warm jazzy tone. 👍
An experienced guitarist has got a sort of magnifying lens in his ears. It’s like when you start playing guitar, you hear Johnny B. Goode (Back to the Future version) for the first time and think it is fast… then you grow up as a guitarist and your hearing gets so good at tracking high speed notes, that you learn to “follow” them clearly, while non-musicians still only hear a blur of notes. Similarly, all this little tonal differences of tubes, pickups, single-value changes in circuits, etc, which are a field of debate, really do exist… some hear them more clearly, some don’t, but they do exist. Once you are able to hear them, you can’t un-hear them! On top of that, being able to hear them and to play guitar well, they transform from nuances to obvious and definite differences while playing. Sometimes they are just little differences and you might not tell what you prefer. Sometimes they can transform a good tone into a fantastic tone. And when you add up all these little pieces of the puzzle, the picture can really change!
You really couldn't have laid that out any better. If someone doesn't hear something, they label it as snake oil. Or, if they hear something and you can't, you must be deaf.
I have not used a KT66 before but the rest I have, and they sounded just like I have always thought they did. I think a better test is to use a looper and a preamp and run through different power amps. That will be much more different. All power amps are not built the same and you have transformers and negative feedback which can make the tones drastically different. Great test!
To me, the differences are most apparent in the breakup area. This is where distortions and nonlinearities prevail. Although all tubes emphasize even-order harmonics (which are pleasant and consonant sounding), it is the proportion and amplitude of these harmonics which impart the “sound” of the tube. An FFT analysis would shed further light on this. Good job!
I made a small amp that can swap octal tubes with switches to changes bias and load to match the tube. I like el34 most of the time. It's more about where and how it breaks up. 6V6 goes dirty quick. 6L6 has lots of headroom. el34 beaks up a bit sooner and with thicker harmonics. I haven't tried a KT66. Even brand of tube changes the sound and dynamics. It's fun to play with, but tubes cost an arm and a leg these days.
I'm putting a ranking from most colored tone to least. el34s as most colored, I put the kt66 as in the middle, and the 6L6 as the cleanest of these three.
The 1 power tube in this that I didn't like was the EL34, which is what I've always used. As well, the differences in the preamp tubes were small, but in both cases (power tube and pre amp tube) the difference is enough to warrant changing tubes for me.
I listened to this on a quality studio monitor playback system. They also sounded very similar to me, mainly the difference was that some were darker than others. However, in the blind test I thought #1 (6L6) sounded the most different from the others. Once the tubes were revealed my opinion didn't change. But I think my perception may have been affected by the order. I'm wondering if the 6L6 was in the middle of the sequence if I would still think it sounded as different from the others. My guess would be that it would not. Another idea for a related experiment would be to run a similar comparison except for the tubes being pushed into significant distortion in order to try to accentuate the differences. I'm no expert on this topic but I would think at lower gain levels (clean to mild break up) the differences are likely minimal. It would be interesting to hear the amount of difference under more extreme conditions.
Listening order does matter a lot. The brain can't retain sound identity well for more than a few seconds. Listening to one tube compared to each other one in quick succession would work better. I was surprised how much the high end of the EHx 6V6GT sounded like the 6L6GC, but EHx tubes tend to sound bright and "wild". Yes, driving them more might reveal more difference, but too much overdrive would mask the clipping knee character, and the high-end ducking effect and harmonic clarity is dependent on the circuitry with each tube. I'm not sure of the plate voltage in this amp. Some tubes are designed for higher V (like the KT88), and sound darker and more mushy when underpowered. Incidentally, some EL34's can take up to 700V.
If the anode and cathode resistor values match the different tubes so that the outputswing dont go into the unlinear region of the tubes you dont really hear any difference, that is correct.
One thing I can say, is that you get a huge diference between EL34 and KT88. EL 84 compress more than the others, KT88 being the less compression in sound and the more solid/ ballsy.
As usual, nice work, Kris! Funny - as a Single-Six-Player I also prefer the KT66. Let me compare it this way: If you are cooking a dish with very few ingredients, then the choice of the right olive oil can be decisive. And the KT66 is simply "Extra Vergine" ;-)
One thing I noticed in the distorted clips is the EL34 has that signature velvety dirty high end the others don't. I wonder if that's ' the "swirl" effect associated with EL34's-- possible stemming from electron scatter in the unaligned grids? That may be somewhat true of the KT88 as well, but it would be from the amp plate V being lower than they are designed for.
Just FYI I use an AMT tube preamp pedal into an ISP Power Amp into real guitar cabs. If I am missing something from a full tube amp I don't know, all I can say it sounds good enough to me and it is still very portable lightweight rig.
@@KrisBarocsi I am not a pro musician so I cannot tell if it sounds killer. I am actually very intrigued on how modelers like ToneX can become a virtual preamp in my rig but I dont feel the need to keep chasing tone amp wise.
I listened through my trusted AKG studio headphones and there was a slight difference, i think the 6L6 and 6V6 sounded pretty much identical though. As far as sound i doubt it really makes much of a difference, sure i hear it here when the guitar is soloed and im using my nice old AKGs but i doubt you could be sure that there is a difference in a blind test when you sit there playing the amp or in a mix. Maybe that could be an interesting test if you can get someone else to change the tubes without you knowing what has changed and also not change every time to see if you are affected by the placebo effect. We are talking about quite small differences here and it might be almost impossible to pass such a test.
It probably depends on the amp, I guess. Sure no tube swap can change the character of the amp but I could definitely get some better tone and feeling from a tube change.
So, just based upon the dirty clips, because I'm not sure I got a good listen of the clean clips the first time around, I will say that I didn't like #1 or #4 at all, I thought #3 and #5 sounded best, and I though #2 sounded okay. Going back and listening to the clean clips, I will say that the only one I definitely wouldn't use was #4, and my second-least favorite was #2, but #3 was my favorite over #1 and #5 by a small margin. The only thing that surprised me about this, having then watched the reveals, is that #5 was the 6V6GT. I happen to use KT66s in my Mesa/Boogie F-50, to replace the originally specified 6L6GC. I have played many amps with 6L6GC and KT88 tubes and liked them, but I definitely do prefer the KT66 to the 6L6GC. I don't mind EL34s, but I'm not an especial fan of them, unless the amp is specifically built for them. One thing that does need to be said, however, is that 6V6GTs and KT88s have very different voltage characteristics to the 6L6GC, EL34, and KT66, all of which are fairly similar types, thought KT66 and 6L6GC are more similar to each other than either is to the EL34. I'm curious to know more about this specific model of amp, and how it handles B+ voltage and bias for each of these tube types. In addition, all of these tubes have different characteristic impedances, while the output transformer obviously doesn't change, so the particular relationship of each tube's characteristic impedance with the output transformer has a lot to do with how each tube type is going to sound in a given amplifier. I suspect that this particular amp just really isn't driving the KT88 hard enough to get the best out of it, and the component specifications are probably much better for the 6L6GC and KT66 than they are for the EL34.
I'm very glad that I have laid in a stock of my favorite KT66 type that will probably last me the rest of my life, because they aren't made anymore, the famed Groove Tubes KT66HP.
I listened on my phone but I found myself coming to pretty much all the same opinions you voiced. The differences were indeed very subtle but the one tube that did not sound bappy in that amp was the KT88 which sounded just dull to me. Great test!
Swapping the bottles out on my Epi BC30 does make a big difference. A Soldano design for Gibson, built cheap in China. Quality of the valves does seem to be important. The chinese wasp in a jam jar type are pretty useless. The Eminence Pot Luck speakers were poor, very thin brittle sound, Greenbacks sorted that. With the right bottles used it is a Bluesbreaker clone. And a master volume added without which the volume is fearsome. It is difficult to make the output valves sag until the volume is too high to use. Not my only valve amp. The bottles do make a difference.
Very interesting. If you listen closely the 6L6 has more midrange than the EL34. I had read this before but I never believed it. I suppose I just assumed EL34 had more midrange because of the amp circuits that they are associated with
Oh, and that's a rebranded ShuGuang EL34B. Nice sounding tube. EL34B and the JJ EL34II sound like a cross between an EL34 and 6L6: fatter tonality than an EL34.
Yes...but I can hear a difference in the tone produced by each tube? Albeit - as you say - its a matter of fine tuning there is an audible difference in tone in your demo and therefore we can conclude that different tubes do affect tone. In which case its not a myth to say or argue this.
I think you see small difference because you have 1 power tube. On a 4 power tube amp o a 6 one (like the Diezel Herbert) the difference is more apparent.
I swapped the JJ EL34's in my marshall with JJ E34L's (slightly higher headroom), with the same settings, and the same fuzz face, set the same as always, it sounded awful. Put the EL34's back in, sounded fine again. My amp is cathode biased, meaning swapping tubes doesnt require rebiasing. So yeah tubes can make a difference.
The only difference I’ve noticed is the jj tubes aren’t very good and then if I change to tung sol, mesa boogie , or ehx tubes. I hear the amp come alive can be a bit louder and warmer.
Fully agree with your "Expectation". But here's the the truth when running the different Tubes as Pentodes in the same environment. Clearly shows that not he Tube "itself" is making the BIG DIFFERENCE, but always the Tube embedded in a certain circuitry. So, different Output Tubes absoluterly make a difference... but perhaps they're not the "Main Actor".
@@tubeworkshop I agree that there's no good way comparing different tubes. If you put them into the same circuit they might sound differently since the operating conditions are not tailored for all of them. If you put them into different circuits, well, then it's a different circuit. (Also, in my first reply I had the impression that this is a triode amp but with 6W for 6V6 it must be a pentode config)
@@youkenez You're absolutely right. Comparing Tubes is a very difficult task, as it you always have to consider them in different environments according to their specs. But I think that's the essence of Kris's Video. There are noticeable differences in Output Tubes when comparing them under the exact same conditions. But they are not a "Game-Changer", as you often read in internet forums. Really pronouncing the sonic characteristics of a certain Tube will always need to completely adapt the amp-design to it.
Dive into the technical details and what makes the tubes different in order to understand the window in which they supposed to operate. With speakers seldomly hear anybody about the sensitivity (db/watt/meter) but mainly impedance and the size as wattage. It goes even as far that the same speaker in one combo considered good and another is bad (the very same speaker 😂). A complete lack of understanding.
just put an old mullard in v1 and listen if you can't tell a difference you don't have ears which is great cause you will save a lot of money on vintage tubes
You can't just change tube types without considering the relationship with the output transformer primary windings, because that might not be optimised for that particular tube, which will affect performance. EG. A 6v6/Kt66 prefer a primary value around twice that for a say a 6L6. So you are not comparing apples and apples there. And I'm afraid I disagree that the tube type didn't matter. In that amp maybe, but you don't say if there is some kind of transformer impedance switching going on when you swap tubes?. These tubes will all respond differently IF the tube type is optimised wrt operating conditions, voltage and output transformer spec etc.
@@KrisBarocsiI took a little bit time to consider. Im always surprised by videos like this, that the differences are much bigger then expected. I was expecting to like KTs the most and was suprised, that good old El34 made it for me. On simple amp like this, its so obvoius how the character changes.
This tubes issue is very complicated and it mostly is not what people think it is. We now have so many videos showing that nothing really matters. And they are all wrong, because they are answering the wrong question. Like for example, Im starting to develop alergy for videos from Jim Lill and similar people, cause they are proveing things, that I dont even carre about, with methods, that are absolutely irrelevant for me. Tough debate this is :D
3 minutes in and already saw an issue with your test. You gave visual cues when the tube type changed. Human brains trigger on this and will “hear” a difference even when there may not be one. It should be a true blind test.
Hey Kris! I know it was a lot of work to get this done right, but I appreciate it.
Love your videos. You rule.
Great video and demo .... subtle differences ...
and now here comes the cork sniffer:
- tubes are not used at their typical power dissipation spec. (well maybe the 6V6 ... )-> different characteristic
- same output transformer ... not matched to the tube specs
- same HV voltage supply (was it tube or silicon? -> another factor)
- sniff sniff sniff
Anyway ... getting an different speaker is getting you much further soundwise ...
Great Video Kris!
Of course you should listen to this video with good headphones or speakers... not your iPhone...
For my "5 cents" you showed clearly the following facts:
1. The Output Tubes will definitely influence the sound and feel of your amp, and you can fine-tune to your personal taste. My personal favourite is the KT66.
2. Switching from a 6L6 to a EL34 will not turn your Amp from "Fender" to "Marshall". There's so much more about it.
Thanks for this video and using the TWS SingleSix. Obviously the TWS SingleSix is a great platform for this, as its design allows swapping Power Tubes without any adjustments.
Yes, but the KT88 sounds comparatively dull and mushy at the low plate V. It's designed for higher V.
I think I ended up with the same conclusion as Kris. Tube 1, sounds good a bit of flub Tube 2, bit bright Tube 3, sounds phenomenal Tube 4, muffled not great Tube 5, characterful. So my favourites ended up being 3, 5, 2, 1, 4 with 4 being a distant last place. Was stunned to find out what the tube I liked was when revealed. Very cool breakdown. Quite like this.
Gear to hear that, thanks for sharing your conclusion.
I agree, but KT88's sound like that. Ritchie Blackmore had them in his Marshall "Major". Check out a good Park 75 amp demo and prepare to be floored. They become monstrous when driven.
@@GCKelloch They are driven here. And in this comparison still my personal least favourite. So I wouldn't seek them out. But if it's inspiring to someone they'll make it sound great because their expression translates aurally.
@@GitShiddy Driven harder, though. KT88 are a comparatively high headroom tube, but more "crunchy" than a KT66. The issue here is the plate V of the amp is not up to the KT88 spec. That's really why it sounds dull and mushy. I too prefer a nice KT66, but that Park 75 amp sound is to die for.
Awesome video, thank you for taking the time to break it down for us. I liked the 6L6, 6V6, KT66, EL34, and KT88 in that order based on just sound.
Hi Kris, great content and a great job with the subject matter..!! well done... As an amp builder I can tell you the single greatest influence over any amp will be the speaker... A speaker model can make or break an amp,... the next greatest influence would be the pre-amp tube tied to your instrument input jack. This gain stage has by far the greatest amount of amplification factor of any tube in the amp's circuit... the rest is all minutia ... as i sometimes say... 'Picking the fly crap out of the pepper'... lol Now, that all said, that pre-amp tube location will still be subtle changes as you change from one brand of 12AX7 to another.... I would love to see a few swaps of 'brands' of 12AX7 pre-amp tubes in this same amp you used... that would be fun !! Again, well done !! 🙂
My own humble conclusion about all these kinds of things is this: when talking guitars or amps, we're talking about complex systems with lots of individual components. Changing any single component will likely have an effect versus the unaltered original. The question then really becomes how much of an effect and is that effect perceivable in ABX true blind testing situations. Maybe, maybe not. But the more components one changes, the further the drift you get from the unaltered original and then the effects become more and more noticeable, especially since the changes all stack together.
Not exactly a genius conclusion. XD But it is the one that makes the most objective sense.
The use of the looper pedal here is one I have been shouting from the rooftops for years. :) Take the inevitable human variable totally out of the equation.
Superb video Kris.
I would also submit, similar to Glenn Fricker's view, that the higher the gain signal used, the harder it can get to truly hear the difference blindfolded.
Great comparison. Nothing here that you couldn’t trivially adjust in post EQ in the studio.
The differences are in compression, resonance and harmonic content & balance. Tonal differences have to do with plate impedance within the circuit. All those factors are also affected by the speaker impedance curve. You notice it make more difference as the tubes are driven harder.
Great tubes make a difference.
I also liked the KT66 the best. To be honest I'm surprised that there was a difference at all, albeit very small!
An amp design factors in the sound as a whole. The preamp stage has a lot to do with it as well. I can use
two of my amps as a comparison of how different they can be. One is an Ampeg V-4 head with 4) 7027a
power tubes that can bring the amp up to 165 watts at the plate. No matter how loud you drive it, it will not
distort. It's used for a great pedal format. I also own a Soldano slo 30 head that has 2) 6l6 power tubes. In the preamp stage, it can have clean, crunch, overdrive, and plenty of distortion even at low levels. It all depends on what you want to use it for, the same can be said about guitars.
Kris-- thank you for making this video. It was really helpful and informative. I think the power amp tube changes were most noticeable when the amp was distorted. I was listening on earbuds and I could easily hear the difference between, say the EL34 and the KT88. Very cool. I'm sure it took a lot of time!
I liked your comments about KT-66's. I've designed a lot of tube circuitry, and those are also my favorite output tubes for guitar amps. Some of my fellow tube circuit designers also characterize KT-66's with similar adjectives to yours.
Another factor that is not mentioned often enough: Negative feedback (NFB) around the output section will linearize the response to some extent--that is, so differences between tubes will be somewhat diminished (though still there, obviously). When you get a chance, try a couple tube swaps in an amp with zero negative feedback.
Preamp tubes also have characteristic distortion/overdrive sounds. For example, old Telefunken 12ax7's ($$$) are prized for their crystalline sound in hifi amps. But they don't overdrive that gracefully. There was a Yugoslavian manufacturer, "EI", who made what appeared to be cheap tubes. In fact, tons of them were microphonic. But when hand-sorted, those were my favorites for gradual overdrive in guitar amps.
BTW, the KT-88's also sounded great in your demo.
my favorite combo is the Matchless Chieftain with the KT77s inlace of the EL34's... it's so nice!
Nice work, Kris. Some things worth noting:
The power tube in the SE class A amp used in this video only generates even harmonics. So, the stronger 3rd harmonic normally present in pentode tubes is not represented.
Finally, even different brands of tube types can sound significantly different. FI, the rebranded Shuguang “TAD” KT66 has one lower Voltage parameter than the original Genelex or Russian Gold Lion KT66. It is still a real KT66, but sounds a bit weaker and brighter. The JJ KT66 is more like a KT88. JJ makes a nice KT88, but you might try a GL KT66 sometime to compare. The GL sound warmer and fuller, assuming you get a good one.
Excellent video, very informative! Personally, I liked the 6V6 the most, it seemed a bit brighter than the others to my admittedly damaged hearing! But mostly, the differences were so minor, that a slight adjustment to the EQ of the amp would easily compensate for it. Great work!
You can change tubes to your hearts content but it's generally the quality if the output transformer that makes a great tube amp.
Thanks for the insight Kris, I’ll definitely stay on the fence when it comes to tube debate.
The sound of power amp distortion is really the sort of sound that modern pre amp distortion designs are trying to emulate, and it's never quite the same as a real power amp compressing and becoming more harmonically dense. If the tone, distirtion etc is pre amp based, logically the output tubes should be suited to high headroom efficient reproduction of the sound the player has selected. This is a mire convenient way to use the amp in a real- life live situation, but short of the GrooveTubes STOG ( which has its own built in attenuater after the power tubes) or another real power amp plugged into a separate " power-soak" type device ,you can't get any kind of realistic power tube distortion ir harmonic generating character. The point I'd raise is that particular tubes sound different according to the design of amp they're in, so you can't turn your Fender twin into a Marshall by installing EL34's. Obviously certain tubes are selected because they complement and work well with certain circuit designs, so when you hear an EL84, it's probably in a Vox Top-boost or clone, 6V6's are usually associated with lower powered Fender amps like the deluxe, EL34's are tied up in one's mind's ear, so to speak with old plexi Marshalls ( probably cranked), so what you hear in any one amp will have smaller differences tube to tube than if one hears any of them in an amp they were suited to, and these legendary distinctions are more related to the amp sound overall than the power-tube "sound".
It's just an extra stage of gain without a tonestack lmao... Just put an extra tube distortion on the FX loop without any eq and there you go, enjoy your "power tube distortion.
These tubes may be pin compatible but they have different power ratings. For example, a 6V6 is rated at 14 watts the KT88 is rated at 42 watts, and the others are rated at 25 watts. So, are there other concerns besides sound?
Very comprehensive and well thought out comparison Kris. I found the differences subtle but recognizable, the KT88 suffered as it was an "elephant in a canoe", not suitable for this circuit. For me, as an amp designer and builder, the most important parameter in tube swaps is whether the amp used has a feedback circuit. The most commonly used feedback loop is from the OPT to the power tube (Champ 5F1) or to the power tube driver (Champ AA764). Feedback tends to even out response of the different tubes and make them quite similar. I do not know if the amplifier used has a feedback loop, I suspect it does. If so, disconnect it and you should hear and feel more differences. Another criterion is the different output impedances of the tubes used. Each is optimum with different output transformer primary impedances. Single ended amps such as this tend to use a "middle value" impedance if tube swapping will be an option.
Hi, thanks for the comment and for watching the video. This amp is a true Class A, single poweramp tube amp with practically no negative feedback. Is that what you mean with feedback loop? I’m just a player, not an engineer 😅
@@KrisBarocsi "Practically" means "none"? If so, then yes, the differences were subtle. My favourite amplifier for comparing certain tubes (12AX7, EL84) is the VOX AC30, zero feedback. Thanks again, good stuff.
@@KrisBarocsi Feedback is used in power amps to make a more linear response across the frequency range. It makes the amp more stable and is typically used in high power applications. It makes the measured specs look better, as well. Its a design choice. Some people like it, while others don't. There are 2 kinds of negative feedback. Global and local. Any time you are talking about negative feedback in the context of a discussion like this, global negative feedback is implied. An amp can be designed with, or without global negative feedback. Local negative feedback is applied to subcircuits within the amp. Its only used in specific areas. As far as I know, all power amps use some negative local feedback. So, any time feedback comes up, 99% of the time, global is what they are referring to.
Also, single ended doesn't mean an amp has just 1 power tube. Its how the tube is wired. When you have more than 1 power tube, they can be wired as either single ended or push pull. With multiple power tubes, push pull is the more popular option because the end result is more power.
Interesting. I found the KT88 my favorite, before finding out which was which. But I am a bass player, so there's that.
You did great on this & nailed it. Tubes types don't matter for the hype they get. Anyone saying otherwise believes def needs to practice more & worry about their gear less.
This was an interesting video! And well done as always! Thanks Kris!
By the way, I know you are talkin' about real tubes. But I have a Blackstar ID:60 TVP combo. The TVP section of it lets you choose the power amp tube model. It has a very noticeable effect on the sound and the feel! I like it a lot (and miss it on other modeller amps)!
It has a KT66 option that is (one of) my favourite(s): it makes the sound of an s-type guitar just "more starty", more quack, more bite, more… dunno. (I can't tell like you if it's more compression, more drive or more midrange or what - but it just sounds cooler for my ears. )
Great video demonstrating the subtle differences! I prefer certain tubes over others but in the end it all comes down to the player to decide how important these differences are. Subtle touches in sound are for subtle players, and these will matter FOR the player. If you feel motivated by a small change in sound, it will impact your playing.
I think this is where Jim lill gets misunderstood he really never says things don't make a difference he just trying to show you what makes the most difference so you can concentrate on that first
Thanks for making this video.
Agreed....Yes, very subtle difference yet obvious.
My stock has more bottom/punch but after changing new. More mid and clarity.
Thanks dude, much appreciated!
Hey Kris! You really Spot the Matter! this is a Superb Video! and really well done! I'm glad for the part You pay attention to the Player's feeling VS Loop ''flat'' response. That's the Main point in the end.....as always Right?!
I recently had some of my amps biased with 5881's, replacing the 6L6's. I have long preferred the 81's, as they are less boomy in the bottom. Sound really fine!
Very good. Very true.These things should be done with a clean(ish) amp, as you did. Indeed, a very small difference in sound , and this is even with different types of tubes, not even the same type by different companies. One other question. Ruggedness, reliability ?
This was excellent! 2&4 won my blind test.
So you’re into warmer guitar tones, right? Those definitely sound rounder and smoother than the others.
@@KrisBarocsi I love fat round cleans. Orange Amps, big Marshall’s, even my EL34 EVH does great big cleans for me.
Thanks for this video, Kris, always appreciate this kind of nerdy stuff! 👍My favourites were el34 and 6v6 with kt66 and 6l6 being quite neutral sounding in a good way and the kt88 the least favourite, a little too dull for my ears with this amp in the blind test. That doesn't really surprise me, cause i tend to like el34 and 6v6 amps, even if the differences were small. Cheers Kris!
Things like tube bias, and many details of an amp's circuit like negative feedback, number of gain stages in the preamp, how the eq section is designed, the output transformer, how stiff or loose the power supply is and the combinations of these factors are what truly make different amps "sound" different. EL84's (which you didnt demo) can lack a bit of headroom while a tube like a 6550 or a KT66 or KT88 have a bit more than most and the rest fall somewhere in the middle... while this effects tone and feel a small amount it is indeed small out of all of the attributes of an amp. Even an EL84 amp can be built to have pretty good headroom if the amp is designed with that in mind. Obviously one would not choose to build an amp with EL84's if a really loud clean amp was what you were after and not every amp with EL84's sounds like a vintage Vox. Anyway the real answer is tubes matter a bit if you are designing an amp but they are all just amplifying devices and how they are actually implemented in the circuit is what actually matters.
Yes. All the yesses. 🙌
Tried several different makes of power tubes in one amp, all 6L6's, they were all subtly different in tone. I settled on JJ's.
Ps, I love this video, it shows so much, that many other "does tube matters" videos totaly miss.
Nice video Kris.
I am like you, I like the KTs the best of the 5.
But to be honest I hear more of a difference in the distorded clips, certainly because the power tubes are working more in this setting.
But like Phil McKnight often says, this tiny difference can certainly be compensated by the EQ on the amp or with a pedal.
So I would not make a big deal of this tube swaping thing, unless you go direct to the amp with no pedal ... I am not sure this is a very typical kind of setup for most guitar player afflicted with GAS like we all are ...
We lie to ourselves, how ever you get YOUR sound is up to you. Everything has an effect but what goes on tape vs what you’re ear needs to make your hands happy. Happily tube free since 1998.
I still have an awesome tube amp… it just needs a crap ton of work to get it running again, and its weighs about 50 megatons. Oooh Fender why you put one lil handle on a 160kg combo!?!
Great!!! This is after listening to the first four minutes. I hear the 1and 3 brighter with tighter low end. 2 and 4 warmer with some top end roll off. 4 is the darkest to me with some low mids push. 5 is my favorite because sounds full and with a wider and more balance frequency response. Differences are not that big indeed but to me noticeable enough to have a preference.
Then went back and listened again twice. It is 3 my favorite. It does what I said 5 did. There is no more low end tightness on 1 and three. It’s the extended top that makes you feel that. So my favorite 3 followed by 1 and 5, then 2 and didn’t like 4 at all on that amp.
Now that I saw the complete video makes sense to me what I heard because among all tubes in the comparison kt66 it’s been my favorite on the amps I’ve built. I’m guessing that if that’s an amp that you swap the tubes and no bias adjustment is made, the kt88 is not on an optimum bias point. Maybe running cold I guess. Anyways. Great comparison, very nice!!
I agree. About the bias: this is a single ended, single tube class A amp with barely any negative feedback. That’s why bias isn’t necessary. But as you said, the KT88 might just not be as ideal as the others. Unless you want a warm jazzy tone. 👍
An experienced guitarist has got a sort of magnifying lens in his ears. It’s like when you start playing guitar, you hear Johnny B. Goode (Back to the Future version) for the first time and think it is fast… then you grow up as a guitarist and your hearing gets so good at tracking high speed notes, that you learn to “follow” them clearly, while non-musicians still only hear a blur of notes.
Similarly, all this little tonal differences of tubes, pickups, single-value changes in circuits, etc, which are a field of debate, really do exist… some hear them more clearly, some don’t, but they do exist. Once you are able to hear them, you can’t un-hear them!
On top of that, being able to hear them and to play guitar well, they transform from nuances to obvious and definite differences while playing.
Sometimes they are just little differences and you might not tell what you prefer. Sometimes they can transform a good tone into a fantastic tone.
And when you add up all these little pieces of the puzzle, the picture can really change!
You really couldn't have laid that out any better. If someone doesn't hear something, they label it as snake oil. Or, if they hear something and you can't, you must be deaf.
I have not used a KT66 before but the rest I have, and they sounded just like I have always thought they did. I think a better test is to use a looper and a preamp and run through different power amps. That will be much more different. All power amps are not built the same and you have transformers and negative feedback which can make the tones drastically different. Great test!
To me, the differences are most apparent in the breakup area.
This is where distortions and nonlinearities prevail.
Although all tubes emphasize even-order harmonics (which are pleasant and consonant sounding), it is the proportion and amplitude of these harmonics which impart the “sound” of the tube.
An FFT analysis would shed further light on this.
Good job!
I made a small amp that can swap octal tubes with switches to changes bias and load to match the tube. I like el34 most of the time. It's more about where and how it breaks up. 6V6 goes dirty quick. 6L6 has lots of headroom. el34 beaks up a bit sooner and with thicker harmonics. I haven't tried a KT66.
Even brand of tube changes the sound and dynamics. It's fun to play with, but tubes cost an arm and a leg these days.
Great video man!!
I'm putting a ranking from most colored tone to least. el34s as most colored, I put the kt66 as in the middle, and the 6L6 as the cleanest of these three.
The 1 power tube in this that I didn't like was the EL34, which is what I've always used. As well, the differences in the preamp tubes were small, but in both cases (power tube and pre amp tube) the difference is enough to warrant changing tubes for me.
An amps pre amp, eq circuit, and speaker choice make all the major differences in my opinion
That’s right!
No need to buy any “special” tubes.
Anything will do.
I listened to this on a quality studio monitor playback system. They also sounded very similar to me, mainly the difference was that some were darker than others. However, in the blind test I thought #1 (6L6) sounded the most different from the others. Once the tubes were revealed my opinion didn't change. But I think my perception may have been affected by the order. I'm wondering if the 6L6 was in the middle of the sequence if I would still think it sounded as different from the others. My guess would be that it would not. Another idea for a related experiment would be to run a similar comparison except for the tubes being pushed into significant distortion in order to try to accentuate the differences. I'm no expert on this topic but I would think at lower gain levels (clean to mild break up) the differences are likely minimal. It would be interesting to hear the amount of difference under more extreme conditions.
The distorted tones definitely showcased the differences better than the clean tones. Still, the differences were relatively minor-which surprised me!
Listening order does matter a lot. The brain can't retain sound identity well for more than a few seconds. Listening to one tube compared to each other one in quick succession would work better. I was surprised how much the high end of the EHx 6V6GT sounded like the 6L6GC, but EHx tubes tend to sound bright and "wild".
Yes, driving them more might reveal more difference, but too much overdrive would mask the clipping knee character, and the high-end ducking effect and harmonic clarity is dependent on the circuitry with each tube. I'm not sure of the plate voltage in this amp. Some tubes are designed for higher V (like the KT88), and sound darker and more mushy when underpowered. Incidentally, some EL34's can take up to 700V.
If the anode and cathode resistor values match the different tubes so that the outputswing dont go into the unlinear region of the tubes you dont really hear any difference, that is correct.
One thing I can say, is that you get a huge diference between EL34 and KT88.
EL 84 compress more than the others, KT88 being the less compression in sound and the more solid/ ballsy.
Hv a Peavey classic 50 4x10. It matters. Good video!
I got a Harley Benton Tube 15 with a Vintage 30 speeker, best amp ever made! 😉
As usual, nice work, Kris!
Funny - as a Single-Six-Player I also prefer the KT66.
Let me compare it this way:
If you are cooking a dish with very few ingredients,
then the choice of the right olive oil can be decisive.
And the KT66 is simply "Extra Vergine" ;-)
Haha, I love the olive oil reference 😆👌
I love the Olive-Oil comparission. So true!
Ken Fischer would have had a field day with this video 🤣
One thing I noticed in the distorted clips is the EL34 has that signature velvety dirty high end the others don't. I wonder if that's ' the "swirl" effect associated with EL34's-- possible stemming from electron scatter in the unaligned grids? That may be somewhat true of the KT88 as well, but it would be from the amp plate V being lower than they are designed for.
i had a valve 105 bimbo back in the day that did the same thing. miss that amp
Excellent video thank you!!!
Have you gotten your hands on a VHT-D50 amp yet and if you have what's your thoughts on it? I would appreciate it. Thanks
I find preamp tubes make a much bigger difference than power amp tubes.
I have a Randall RD100. Can I use EL34 tubes by adjusting the bias of the amplifier without causing problems for the transformers?
The kt66 sounded so good for me
4 was notably darker.
Hoping you used the looper on tube 1? That would create a difference if you played as opposed to use the looped playback.
Just FYI I use an AMT tube preamp pedal into an ISP Power Amp into real guitar cabs. If I am missing something from a full tube amp I don't know, all I can say it sounds good enough to me and it is still very portable lightweight rig.
I’m sure that rig sounds killer. 💪
@@KrisBarocsi I am not a pro musician so I cannot tell if it sounds killer. I am actually very intrigued on how modelers like ToneX can become a virtual preamp in my rig but I dont feel the need to keep chasing tone amp wise.
I listened through my trusted AKG studio headphones and there was a slight difference, i think the 6L6 and 6V6 sounded pretty much identical though. As far as sound i doubt it really makes much of a difference, sure i hear it here when the guitar is soloed and im using my nice old AKGs but i doubt you could be sure that there is a difference in a blind test when you sit there playing the amp or in a mix. Maybe that could be an interesting test if you can get someone else to change the tubes without you knowing what has changed and also not change every time to see if you are affected by the placebo effect. We are talking about quite small differences here and it might be almost impossible to pass such a test.
It probably depends on the amp, I guess. Sure no tube swap can change the character of the amp but I could definitely get some better tone and feeling from a tube change.
asking how they 'feel' is the right question.
Honestly, that’s the only aspect I really care about when it comes to tubes and such. With pickups it’s the same. 👍
So, just based upon the dirty clips, because I'm not sure I got a good listen of the clean clips the first time around, I will say that I didn't like #1 or #4 at all, I thought #3 and #5 sounded best, and I though #2 sounded okay. Going back and listening to the clean clips, I will say that the only one I definitely wouldn't use was #4, and my second-least favorite was #2, but #3 was my favorite over #1 and #5 by a small margin.
The only thing that surprised me about this, having then watched the reveals, is that #5 was the 6V6GT. I happen to use KT66s in my Mesa/Boogie F-50, to replace the originally specified 6L6GC. I have played many amps with 6L6GC and KT88 tubes and liked them, but I definitely do prefer the KT66 to the 6L6GC. I don't mind EL34s, but I'm not an especial fan of them, unless the amp is specifically built for them.
One thing that does need to be said, however, is that 6V6GTs and KT88s have very different voltage characteristics to the 6L6GC, EL34, and KT66, all of which are fairly similar types, thought KT66 and 6L6GC are more similar to each other than either is to the EL34. I'm curious to know more about this specific model of amp, and how it handles B+ voltage and bias for each of these tube types. In addition, all of these tubes have different characteristic impedances, while the output transformer obviously doesn't change, so the particular relationship of each tube's characteristic impedance with the output transformer has a lot to do with how each tube type is going to sound in a given amplifier.
I suspect that this particular amp just really isn't driving the KT88 hard enough to get the best out of it, and the component specifications are probably much better for the 6L6GC and KT66 than they are for the EL34.
I'm very glad that I have laid in a stock of my favorite KT66 type that will probably last me the rest of my life, because they aren't made anymore, the famed Groove Tubes KT66HP.
Absolutely! They were all different!
I listened on my phone but I found myself coming to pretty much all the same opinions you voiced. The differences were indeed very subtle but the one tube that did not sound bappy in that amp was the KT88 which sounded just dull to me. Great test!
I was also surprised about the KT88. Then again, it might be just perfect in another amp design.
They all sound great when a tele is playing!!
6v6 or 6L6 for me. KT66 was good also.
I was thinking, damn not even a hint of difference, until the overdriven
There is clearly a noticible change in tone! No more discussion at this point...
big change in tube #4
I don't feel any huge differences either, rather just details
But what about preamp tubes tho?
How much difference do those make?
Swapping the bottles out on my Epi BC30 does make a big difference. A Soldano design for Gibson, built cheap in China. Quality of the valves does seem to be important. The chinese wasp in a jam jar type are pretty useless. The Eminence Pot Luck speakers were poor, very thin brittle sound, Greenbacks sorted that. With the right bottles used it is a Bluesbreaker clone. And a master volume added without which the volume is fearsome. It is difficult to make the output valves sag until the volume is too high to use. Not my only valve amp. The bottles do make a difference.
Very interesting. If you listen closely the 6L6 has more midrange than the EL34. I had read this before but I never believed it. I suppose I just assumed EL34 had more midrange because of the amp circuits that they are associated with
Not at all! I hear the exact opposite! The 6L6 sounds scooped compared to the EL34, maybe because it has more bass
Oh, and that's a rebranded ShuGuang EL34B. Nice sounding tube. EL34B and the JJ EL34II sound like a cross between an EL34 and 6L6: fatter tonality than an EL34.
Yes...but I can hear a difference in the tone produced by each tube? Albeit - as you say - its a matter of fine tuning there is an audible difference in tone in your demo and therefore we can conclude that different tubes do affect tone. In which case its not a myth to say or argue this.
I think you see small difference because you have 1 power tube. On a 4 power tube amp o a 6 one (like the Diezel Herbert) the difference is more apparent.
6L6 and KT66 were best. The difference was bigger than I expected.
what really shape the sound of your amp is the cabinet and the speakers
I swapped the JJ EL34's in my marshall with JJ E34L's (slightly higher headroom), with the same settings, and the same fuzz face, set the same as always, it sounded awful. Put the EL34's back in, sounded fine again.
My amp is cathode biased, meaning swapping tubes doesnt require rebiasing. So yeah tubes can make a difference.
The only difference I’ve noticed is the jj tubes aren’t very good and then if I change to tung sol, mesa boogie , or ehx tubes. I hear the amp come alive can be a bit louder and warmer.
I expect much more pronounced differences when running these tubes as pentodes in a push-pull power amp.
Fully agree with your "Expectation". But here's the the truth when running the different Tubes as Pentodes in the same environment. Clearly shows that not he Tube "itself" is making the BIG DIFFERENCE, but always the Tube embedded in a certain circuitry. So, different Output Tubes absoluterly make a difference... but perhaps they're not the "Main Actor".
@@tubeworkshop I agree that there's no good way comparing different tubes. If you put them into the same circuit they might sound differently since the operating conditions are not tailored for all of them. If you put them into different circuits, well, then it's a different circuit.
(Also, in my first reply I had the impression that this is a triode amp but with 6W for 6V6 it must be a pentode config)
@@youkenez You're absolutely right. Comparing Tubes is a very difficult task, as it you always have to consider them in different environments according to their specs. But I think that's the essence of Kris's Video. There are noticeable differences in Output Tubes when comparing them under the exact same conditions. But they are not a "Game-Changer", as you often read in internet forums. Really pronouncing the sonic characteristics of a certain Tube will always need to completely adapt the amp-design to it.
my top 3
1. 6L6
2. EL34
3. EL84
Dive into the technical details and what makes the tubes different in order to understand the window in which they supposed to operate.
With speakers seldomly hear anybody about the sensitivity (db/watt/meter) but mainly impedance and the size as wattage. It goes even as far that the same speaker in one combo considered good and another is bad (the very same speaker 😂). A complete lack of understanding.
I know it's all preference, but tube 3 sounds the best to me.
How’s the amp
Biased tho is the question. ?
Hallo Kris. Ich habe Engl Ironball SE. :) ❤
I will say I have owned a few Peavey Triple X's and I absolutely think EL34s sound way better in that amp lmao!!!
just put an old mullard in v1 and listen if you can't tell a difference you don't have ears which is great cause you will save a lot of money on vintage tubes
You can't just change tube types without considering the relationship with the output transformer primary windings, because that might not be optimised for that particular tube, which will affect performance. EG. A 6v6/Kt66 prefer a primary value around twice that for a say a 6L6. So you are not comparing apples and apples there. And I'm afraid I disagree that the tube type didn't matter. In that amp maybe, but you don't say if there is some kind of transformer impedance switching going on when you swap tubes?. These tubes will all respond differently IF the tube type is optimised wrt operating conditions, voltage and output transformer spec etc.
Personally I liked the tube sound better. I could feel it. The solid state was just mehhhh. 😮😮😮😮
A pedal that changes the nature of the amp tubes like the Keystone Exchanger does with the pickups would be cool 😊 useless , but cool 😂😂
I liked tubes #2 best. Lets see what it is
And? Are you surprised to see what it was? Or does it fit your expectations?
@@KrisBarocsiI took a little bit time to consider. Im always surprised by videos like this, that the differences are much bigger then expected.
I was expecting to like KTs the most and was suprised, that good old El34 made it for me.
On simple amp like this, its so obvoius how the character changes.
This tubes issue is very complicated and it mostly is not what people think it is. We now have so many videos showing that nothing really matters. And they are all wrong, because they are answering the wrong question. Like for example, Im starting to develop alergy for videos from Jim Lill and similar people, cause they are proveing things, that I dont even carre about, with methods, that are absolutely irrelevant for me.
Tough debate this is :D
@@KrisBarocsips: rewatching it again, the "presumtions" kick in and I liked the KT66 the most, haha :D
EL34
Your guitar amp is not a hifi system. The tubes you need as musicians travel is cheap and widely available.
Rookie stuff here.
they sound almost the same, maybe some more gain on some.
3 minutes in and already saw an issue with your test. You gave visual cues when the tube type changed. Human brains trigger on this and will “hear” a difference even when there may not be one. It should be a true blind test.
On “cranked tube two” the volume know changes. 4 as well.
Other than these issues, solid video. Fact is, tubes are a very minor part. To the point of trivial. Change the speaker and see what happens.
Как по мне один хрен. Может быть только tube 3 звучит чуть по чище и яснее что ли.
No noticeable difference