I misspoke! I actually believe that the Chinese youth selection system is the MOST important factor to their success. I made it seem like their drug program (whatever it may be) is the most important and I apologize for that.
Chinese really care about the Olympics. I read and researched that they recruit least 10,000 kids. Using the best of their genetics (along with pharmacology)
The sheer numbers in the Chinese sports university system and Olympic training system are staggering- not just in weightlifting, but all competitive sports. Take sanda (Chinese kickboxing) for example. I know guys who are absolute badass sanda fighters who got cut from their sports university programs for not being able to compete with their peers who moved on to the next level. It's hard for most people to wrap their heads around the extreme number of humans China has to draw from for sports that other countries don't.
Plus they are actively funneling these people into those programs. Most other countries are missing developmental programs to go from local/parochial to regional to national. Any random population has similar odds of high potential performers, they just go unnoticed or underdeveloped.
@@MairtinMcNamara yes, I dislike when people attribute China's success to trash they pulled out of their ass. China is one of the most active and hard-working country's for its own people. Their results speak for themselves.
A sad reality is that so many people are funnelled into these programmes that most of them won't make it to the more advanced level. They had often stopped their studies and everything to focus on training from a very young age, thus closing off most other paths in life. This and everything else make it very difficult for the people cut from the programmes to make a living afterwards.
In the US weightlifting lives in the niche of lifting sports and said lifting sports are themselves already niche, there is 0 state structure and 0 monetary incentives, weightlifting is a pure hobby sport, meanwhile you have these other countries with strong state founded programs that pump a lot of resources into the sport, and weightlifting is viewed has a salvation from poverty and a legitimate way of life , of course they are going to have athletes with higher genetic potential and generally more dedication, plus simply more people actually doing the sport, like Zack stated has soon has US weightlifting had a jump of popularity you saw better results.
I tell you one thing, as a middle aged lifter training in China with a local coach on my lunch break, Chinese system seems crazy technical to me. I had a 1 rep squat max of about 130kg and he had me training empty bar for almost a month before letting me squat any real weight. So much more emphasis on flexibility than anything I have seen on UA-cam so far.
@@DJBlackCard well, I've been with this guy for about 3 months and my previous 1rm was just thighs parallel. Last week I did 120x5 atg, followed by 100 for 5x5, so yeah. I don't believe in the geometry any more. I think it's more about taking flexibility seriously, and, at 51, I'm after staying healthy more than chasing numbers.
@@bailewen Serious progress, congrats. I do believe that geometry definitely plays a role, however. Especially in the snatch. I don’t think it’s anything a coach can’t work around, but I do think that if you don’t ever coach “long”, 6’3” guys and then you meet one and want his snatch to look just like Lu’s, you’re likely going to have a problem. I just don’t know to what extent Chinese coaches insist on the “aesthetic”, let’s say, of lifts. Or if they’re willing to work to find the optimal positions for each lifter.
Weightlifting in China might be like football (soccer for my US friends) in Spain, UK, Italy and many places of Europe: many people go into the sport, the best are selected and maybe, just maybe, a few of them get the chance to play professionaly. That way the best athletes are participating. Like you said in one video, maybe the best weightlifter out there is working at a seven-eleven job and it is completely oblivious to the sport of Olympic Weightlifting. Promotion is key.
I also think that with such a huge population, China is at an advantage in terms of its likelihood of having many gifted and skilled candidates to train. Like you said, you have to find them but even though, China might have roughly the same proportion of genetically advantage people for weightlifting as any other place they will have more in raw numbers. Not that only genetics matter of course.
I don’t think I can post links here, but a UA-camr called jxmyhighroller did a great video about one of the worst players in the NBA and how much better he is than your local gym hero, or even an extremely talented college player. Winnowing down a wide base to the top few hundred talents in the world produced some really incredible athletes
As someone who lifts at Westside and is in the gym with Lou 4 days a week, I will tell you that he does practice what he preaches. Reach out if you want some clarity or an explanation to some of your questions
I think this guy is just trying to get clicks. I watched some stuff from west side. And a lot with dave from elit and sounds like you guys know how to get strong.
@@douglasmueller4684 No Zack isn't. To think Lou has some magical ideas about how to get better at weightlifting that the we (the weightlifting community) just don't know about in the US is insane, arrogant, and silly.
Louie is a great guy and has successfully encouraged so many people around the world to get stronger. That makes this a difficult video to make. But I think Zack was very respectul and excellently articulated where he disagrees with Louie. Love the content, well done Coach ZT.
Zack i like your critical perspective ...it seems you worry a lot about offending these big names, but there is a subtle difference between “calling out the bullshit, and not the bullshitter”. Hopefully they can tell the difference, but if not, they just don’t get it. This is how the field advances, so keep it up - voices like yours are what push things forward.
I've never squatted or pulled as heavy and as frequently as I have on weightlifting programs. Since there's no reason to train the press like you would the bench press in powerlifting, tons of volume in every weightlifting program I've ever seen and used is devoted to heavy-ass pulls and squats. Louie is a legend in equipped powerlifting, and Rippetoe... uh, coaches some elderly people sometimes, I guess, but they're both way out of their depth every time they opine on a sport they do not participate in or contribute to in any meaningful way.
I actually love Louie Simmons. I've been a "fan" of Westside Barbell for nearly 20 years, mostly I found inspiration in the atmosphere and mentality that the Westside lifters seemed to have. That gym has produced not only some of the best powerlifters the sport has ever seen but also some of the most notable coaches and fitness personalities in the world today. Mark Bell, Dave Tate, John Meadows, JM Blakely, Swede Burns, Matt Wenning, etc. Even the great Ed Coan credits Louie as being a friend and mentor to him back in the day. That being said, I'll be the first to admit Louie is NOT always right.
I would like to see the clean and press added back into weightlifting or I’d like to see strengthlifting become even as half as powerlifting and weightlifting.
@@sushiter Never said that. However, if you watch John's videos, he mentions his time at Westside and refers to it every so often. He was also very good friends with Dave Tate, which stems from their time together at Westside, and they've discussed training there on the podcast. John had several videos where he's showing certain exercises and how he learned a lot there.
Great video Zack. WSBB does have an open door policy that I have taken advantage of a few times and this would also be a great discussion for their podcast. It might be worth considering taking the trip to share a qualified and current opinion with Louie and Tom. Thanks for all you do.
To argue against Louie's point at 10:00, I have a 275 front squat, a 365lb back squat, and a 425lb conventional deadlift. My snatch and c&j are 185 and 225 respectively. This correlates more with my squat than my deadlift, meaning my legs are the bottleneck here. If my legs were stronger, I could lift more weight on the olympic lifts. Upping my deadlift will add minimal improvement to my olympic lifts. Conversely, I know plenty of people who have a squat much closer to their deadlift, and their snatch and c&j are still correlating with their squat numbers in the same fashion, meaning they have higher numbers than me despite a weaker pull. Leg strength is king in weightlifting.
I would argue that. I have similar numbers but a 335 back squat, 310 front squat, 445 conventional deadlift. Snatch and c&j are 185 and 255. According to that I shouldn't c&j more than you since my back squat is weaker than yours. I think the main point for both of us is that we probably suck at technique big time since we should be able to c&j way more with these raw numbers. Watch Gabriel Sincraians videos about what your olympic lifts relative to your strength numbers should be.
Your take 13:30 makes his point. Too many American coaches are afraid to try new things. I very rarely see unorthodox pulls and back exercises being done. Maybe I live in a shoebox
Why nothing is said about the fact that you can make a living from just weightlifting if you make it on a team in Russia ( assuming China too). Like no job - you just lift weights. And you get decent salary. What do you get if you make it on US team (excluding possible sponsors or ad revenue)?
The slim chance of an Olympic medal. If I was a young HS star athlete who can play football and also clean heavy, the D1 scholarship and a potential lucrative NFL contract sounds more appealing.
Don't they take prize money too? Like they did with the tennis player i think it was Li Na. They do great things for their athletes but they do terrible things too
As always I love the content. I also really love the care taken to be clear that this is respectful critique from someone who is “one the same side,” given all the mindless beefing that happens on social. There is obviously a huge scientific component to this sport and respectfully debating what the data mean is an important part of science, even if it’s not the norm on UA-cam etc.
the problem for the US is lack of talent. and there's lack of talent because the best people don't want to put their effort into a sport that has a very low input:output payoff when they could be playing a high-profile and $$$$$ sport like football.
This 100%!!!! if u took even the low level nfl dudes amd just put em in other sports records would be torn to shreds. If u took saquon barkely who cleaned 405 wit absolute crap form he’d be a better clarenceO
This is 100% the case. It's the reason white athletes have been dropping out of football and basketball too. They have better prospects then getting into the NBA and NFL.
@@HkFinn83 even more nonsense. garbage even. football was just one example (not to mention nfl players are not all "superheavyweight.") there's lots of other lucrative sports for athletes of all sizes. can't believe that even needs to be said.
@@HkFinn83Christian Ronaldo might not be a gold medal prospect but all those top soccer guys would be the best weightlifter in their country if they chose to focus on weightlifting from a young age. The fast twitch fibres can’t be taught, they are born that way and that talent will follow the money.
Small point: I think it would be more fair to say that, if Simmons (or Rippetoe or whoever) is going to say that American weightlifting coaches are not training strength correctly, it's not necessarily that they need to train lifters to do better (Zack's claim around 9:15), but that they need to specifically detail what the programming should be that is both (a) not what American coaches already do and (b) not contrary to what the winning teams are doing.
Please don’t put a legend like Louie in the same sentence as rippetoe (I don’t mind him but cmon now he’s not n never was at the same level as Louie n hasn’t ever produced athletes as strong as Louie has consistently). This isn’t a hater comment it’s just different levels of coaching n Louie’s life work & legacy, just a question of respect 💯💯💯
Louis means that our lifters are weak. They have weak CNS output. That they’re legs are strong but their backs are weak. He’s believes and built a lot of his own approaches to power from Russian weightlifting. Volume, resistance, accessory work. Good morning, reverse hypers, hamstrings.. it’s one of his first podcasts but he talks on weightlifting. He believes that America focus’s on form way to much. That when they put 10 more pounds on the bar they can’t make the list, that if they catch the bar wrong they don’t have the raw strength to save the lift. There’s substance in anything. Louis is rough around the edges and can be judged by his appearance but he is a smart man and has trained in weightlifting and trained weightlifters. He may not be right, but he’s not wrong. I like his quote that if strength didn’t matter there wouldn’t be weight classes.
I'm in the process of transitioning from CrossFit to Olympic Weightlifting only. I enjoy the technicality and the nuance of the lifts too much and would rather do that everyday. I believe it's important to remind ourselves that every individual has different aspects of their lifts to work on. I'm a small athlete (155#, 5'5"), and it's really tough for me to add strength. Therefore, I focus a lot on heavy pulls, squats, frequent near max snatch/cj attempts. Technique and speed have been something I can pick up much faster so there's less focus there in going for improvements. For example, my current clean is 255# and my front squat is 280# (~91% ratio). Lastly, I focus a lot on mobility as my hamstrings, mid/upper back, lats, shoulders are tight!
I think Louie was partially correct here. We have a strength difference with the other traditionally weightlifting countries. Look at our top athletes in the sport. They almost all exclusively come from crossfit. They weren't selected to be weightlifters, they became ones because they wanted to. How many of those athletes would Chinese or old school Bulgarians pick to be a part of the team? I tell ya, zero. Drugs are definitely a factor, but a factor after this selection process. Russians looked at children as young as 9 and determined if they could cut it. In the US, mainly former athletes (like gymnasts and cheerleaders) chose weightlifting AFTER completing their previous career. Plus, let's admit our girls won only because others where banned from competing.
I agree - weightlifting is still seen as more of a hobby sport in the US. For good reason too. If you're athletically gifted, why would you choose weightlifting over something like football, basketball, or baseball? There just isn't much money or prestige in it compared to the more popular sports.
This is exactly the issue idk how anyone is missing the point shits simple anyone who could be doing the best stuff usually goes into sports that have more money in em (or well compared to WL whatever money is more than WL 😂😂) so until there’s an actual incentive to do that it’s not very likely that the states will have athletes at the level of anyone from any of the countries that actually care about WL or PL etc… so many are quick to blame PEDs but it’s not that, it’s fkin participation mixed with effort n cultural significance 💯💯💯
It’s difficult to evaluate what Louie says when considering the disjointed presentation style that he articulates himself with. There’s reasons for that, of course, but it makes it harder to track and then engage the contentions he asserts and how he justifies them.
@@aidanivesdavis I mean it literally is a medical condition. I think he mentioned it once but don't remember it exactly. Complications during surgery or sth? Might be talking out of my ass but I believe there was sth like that.
Good vid and breakdown man. One Louie anecdote that sticks out to me is I remember reading he always asked somebody looking to train at WSBB one key question -- "Who do you want to train at Westside?" For which there was only one acceptable answer: "To break world records." Anyways, that's not really very relevant to the discussion but I thought I'd share it anyways.
Well, that's really where Louie's success as a powerlifting guru and the records his gym has achieved is all about. It's not his "method" as he likes to believe. It's the mindset, the mentality that he seems to engrain in is lifters. It's the atmosphere and the guys in that gym at any given time that made it great. If you listen to any lifter who actually trained at Westside, even if they were just guests for a time, that's the common philosophy they all have. The objective is to break records. If you aren't trying to break a PR, then there's no reason to be in the gym. It's just a mindset that Westside seemed to establish from the very early days. Louie readily admits this. It was the guys he had around him that made the gym great.
Yeah, we all watched Seb's video about them. But once again, what about their program is any different from literally any other? Can you name ONE weightlifting program that doesn't focus on squatting and doesn't have a big focus on leg strength? lol That's basically a toned down version of what Louie/Rippetoe say. Specially for developmental programs, squatting and pulling is often more frequent than snatch and clean and jerking. Check Gabriel Sincraian's takes on programming and how to get better at weightlifting. The answer is always the same: Get stronger.
Zack, if you noticed, our biggest improvements in weightlifting has come on the women's side not the men's side. And that's because the world isn't that far ahead of us on women's weightlifting because their countries haven't been vested in the sport that much longer than us (on the women's side). I think Louie (being an old man) was referring to men.
In terms of the mens side, most of the top male athletes in the US end up going to play D1 sports with a more potentially lucrative future. There is not much incentive besides a potential Olympic gold in mens weightlifting for a young athlete in most American schools. I do not doubt there is talent out there. Meanwhile other countries WL stars are considered how Americans see a Michael Jordan or Tom Brady
Please review lifts of Caeleb Dressel. His currently fastest swimmer in the world. Most of his dry land(strength training) is Olympic lifts. But his Olympic lifts doe not exceed above 70kg.
I notice that powerlifter always criticize weightlifting on performance. But on the other side weightlifters don't really give a shit about powerlifters lol. It's like they know they have bigger squats and deadlifts, but they know damn sure that doing a proper snatch with an empty bar ATG is hard AF for them lol.
Powerlifting is an inferior sport. It evolved as odd lifts from Weightlifting. Current and past weightlifters use power lifts as assistance lifts. The notable difference between the two sports is that ALL weightlifting mouvements are overhead lifts.
a very nice video.... I do have one thing to note about our coaches not stressing strength. Zack said he didn't know of any coaches not pushing strength.i have been in olympic lifting for 59 plus years . I can think of three coaches offhand in the midwest who don't push strength. one in particular told me it was only necessary to front squat 10 kilos more than the lifters best clean! no names obviously in this forum but maybe sometime over a beer,,,,
Lou's protocols for strength increase are pretty pretty pretty clear. Rogue used to have a T with his justification quote as well. "When i go to war i go to kill, not to get killed".
Former hockey player and weightlifter, here. For the most part you are correct about how the Russians learned to play hockey. Anatoly Tarasov, the father of Russian hockey was also a bandy coach. Bandy is similar to hockey where it's played on ice, but with a stick similar to a field hockey stick and a ball. The strategy of both sports is the same, put the puck or the ball in the net. The Russians used a finesse style of play where they would change positions during play such as the center moving to wings, defensemen moving to center, center moving to defenseman, ect. The Canadians used more of a zone defense and offense. The Russians focused mainly on skating drills and puck handling drills which are the basis of their play, and the fundamental hockey. How does this relate to Weightlifting in the USA? Stick to perfecting the snatch and clean and jerk, focus on the basics of Weightlifting training. We have a growing pool thanks to crossfit, with more and more coaches learning the fundamentals of Weightlifting. What is the point of getting a huge squat or deadlift if your technique is going to fall apart? It defeats the purpose. The Russians focused on the basics fundamentals of hockey, we need to focus on the basics of Weightlifting. Sorry for the long dissertation.
Only 6:06 into it and I had to make my first comment about the person who cleans 360 and front squats 370. First, this lifter has amazingly efficient technique. But more importantly, we don't know anything about this lifter or this lifter's coach. Louis wants us to infer that this lifter has a crappy coach because the lifter only front squats 370. If this lifter is in their mid 20s and lifting for over a decade, yeah, this lifter has a crappy coach. But this changes if the lifter is a teenager and their coach currently has the lifter on a strength cycle designed to increase squat strength. This cherry-picking of data with no context gets really tiresome really fast.
The point is simple: it is not that you dont train strenght, the point is that you dont train strenght ENOUGH. That it is. Sthephy Cohen said something similar in one of your own videos. She mentions that some poeple (in Crossfit I think) do a lot more than Olympic lifters in military/strict press. Put more priority into old fashion muscle and strenght and you will do better in Olympic lifting. And that means UPPER BODY AS WELL!!!
@@bakarone and such means a lot lot lot more than that. and such means pull ups, many bodybulding accesosory, deadlifts, strenght pulls, combine streght with hipertrophy, and diet to reduce body fat and being usually far more lean than then opponents (fat to muscle ratio which in turn means more potential for strenght than their opponents). Klukov is another example with a 200kg bench press.
Most of the sports that "pay well" favor the taller athlete. Sure, you might have a 5' 9" running back on a football team, but your typical lineman is like 6' 6" 300 lbs. Then you have Jose Altuve who is a baseball phenom at 5' 6", but most baseball players are over 6". Heck even golfers seem to be over 6'. What we need is a recruitment/feeder program to steer into weightlifting those athletically talented people who otherwise would be "too small" to get to the professional level.
Leg strength will only get you so far in WL. You could back squat 400kg, but that doesn't mean you will clean and jerk it. The closer the Oly lifts are to your max squat numbers, the better technique you have.
Meanwhile recall someone said the snatch is 1/2 your deadlift. Standards based on percentages and reps work for squats amd deadlifts, but it does not always translate for movements like the clean and snatch. However, strength is a factor in WL success.
I matters who is in the room. Training partners matter. I was a very good weightlifter, took a break for a bit, returned but didn't have a gym to go to. I never reached my potential and burned myself out training alone. About 6 days a week for 3 years and I was never able to beat PRs that a hit 1 year into weightlifting. I had a coach who's name rhymes with snacks beta so I know the coaching was no point. Now when I look at a barbell it is with pure hatred and discust. For 3 years no fun was had. Training partners matter.
Also factor in the type of personality. Some people perform better around people, some without, then there's those who are anytime, anywhere, DGAF who are in the room. For serious competing lifters a coach is a must and even other high competitive athletes in the room.
I was an Olympic lifter in the 1970's and could overhead press my bodyweight for 10 reps. I've seen some of the modern lifters not even press their weight. I would back squat well over my best clean for sets of 10 and front squat my clean for reps ! Olympic lifters need to be strong.
It's so rare for old school weightlifters to make comments on videos like these. You all usually seem to keep to yourselves. Big fan of the old style of training and the focus on strength as a fundamental aspect of training for the sport.
I think on the topic of Chinese lifters that they specifically need more upper body strength training. They all have incredible cleans and snatches but tend to be weaker in the jerk and I think this is part of it. Especially strict pressing
8:44 I think one key factor in why Mr Simmons and Mr Rippetoe focus and harp on strength being the deficit in Oly weightlifting is because Strength focus is their specialty and having that be the single most important factor validates their methodology. It validates and projects their narrative and business, which to be fair is part of their job as business owners, its also their job to update their methods or step aside and allow the next generation to do so
But how are they wrong though? Louie specifically… I mean just look at the build of the chinese weightlifters compared to the US is obvious we’re not building enough muscle to move bigger weight strength.
About China selecting their lifters, i read a tweet from Steve Sailer (yes that guy) on how China's selection is. One girl wanted to be a vet, that was her dream. She had awesome leverages for weightlifting so she was selected even though she wasn't drawn to the sport. She was told she could pursue becoming a vet after she won a gold medal. That's how serious China is with weightlifting
Asians have been that way a long ass time. When I was a kid I remember hearing about how they would ask a kid what they wanted to be. The kid would say they wanted to be an astronaut or firefighter or whatever. Then they would ask the kids what they were going to be, and the kids would have an answer.
It sounds like he's saying that the first pull for the clean should set up more like a stiff-leg deadlift instead of relying primarily on leg-drive. I don't necessarily agree. It's just what I'm trying to gather from his comments.
You are quite well spoken and are walking a tightrope criticizing Simmons but your points were well made. Why do you think in all these years with his reputation nobody has recruited him to train Olympic lifting? First and probably foremost is Westside has many members using 'roids. I also don't believe he is the type to be part of a team of coaches, he has spent too many years coaching people that go to his gym only where his word is final. There is only so much time that Olympic lifters can spend on other exercises and don't believe for a second they are neglecting basic power movements.
I can't speak confidently as I've only really watched Louie and West Side in a couple of small docs but they seem like the type that'll aggravate injuries in the name of being tough. I've heard members saying that it's discouraged for them to take the right amount of time off and rehabilitating injuries. I'm sure this brand of hyper-macho, adrenaline-fueled lifting has its advantages to whatever the layman in the gym will do, but when competing against the top guys in 2021 who take adequate rest time and train with a 21st Century understanding of lifting, diet and recovery, they're surely fighting an uphill battle.
Full watched. I still love Louie and his ideas but as someone trying to grow we have to take certain useful things from multiple people and we don’t always have to agree with all of the ideology.
Man I’ve been wanting to get into weightlifting for a few years now, but there isn’t a coach close enough to me to teach me and I don’t really have to money to even if there was. It’s super tough but I suppose I’ll just enjoy this content either way
You could find a coach who doesnt specialize in oly lifting, but who trains athletes. There is a high chance he/she knows the basics. Or you can teach yourself to start. My point is dont procrastinate!
US has recently been dominating powerlifting, i.e John Hackk, Russel Orhii, Julius Maddox, Ray Williams due to its increasing popularity. I hope weightlifting sees the same surge and we get some freaks of nature with the spread of the sport
That's mostly true, but not the full truth. First of all, I was extremely surprised more than a decade ago, when I learned that my Eastern European country traded places in Powerlifting with the USA. We tended to do better in lower weight classes, so obviously it wasn't simply about the gear. The thing is, at the time around here nobody knew what Powerlifting even was? The gym goers were clueless about it. And they could beat you guys? Back then, when Louie was so universally regarded, you guys definitely did something wrong. Then you changed. I remember Smalcerz being hired by you guys, for a little while, because you couldn't be bothered to stick with the project. Anyway, he predicted you gonna do much better after about six years. And you did. So over all, Zack is most likely correct. Your training is fine right now. You are getting beat by mass selection and gear. But when Louie was in vogue, you were getting beat at *his* sport, not the sport he pretends to understand.
Simmons/Rippetoe are gonna continue to say this till they either drop dead or every weightlifter can go toe-to-toe with a similarly-sized powerlifter in the power lifts. They're butthurt over the prestige attributed to WL over PL. What they actually want is validation that powerlifters (esp. the ones they produce) are every bit as athletic/good/sexy as weightlifters. As long as they can hold 900lbs+ squats over the WL world's head they'll never shut the fuck up.
I think Louie is used to being almost the messiah of strength in the US, and therefore what he says is irrefutable in his mind. A lot of what he has done for strength sports in the US is great, but in the interest of sport specificity, especially on the world level, his reasoning lacks (I think) because of no exposure to that type of athlete. "I do not know what I do not know"
He used to do weightlifting but then switched to PL, imo it’s more likely that Louie has a way of speaking that many people can’t totally understand due to him assuming you already know half of what he’s trying to say, but he ain’t wrong the states suck at WL n it’s due to lots of naïveté n no money behind it plus the other countries outwork tf outta us so until people work as hard as the other countries shit won’t be fixed
You may have addressed this before, but coming from someone who has trained weightlifting 2 years very dedicated, trained powerlifting and strongman very dedicated for even longer. Both powerlifting and weightlifting focus on the same thing at the end of the day, the COMPETITION lifts. What does a powerlifters workout regimen generally include? Squat, bench, deadlift and accessories to improve those movements. I bet they wouldn’t tell their powerlifting students that they need to run faster to squat more weight, they would say they need to squat more often which means what? Improving technique. Yes there are accessories but at the end of the day no matter the sport, your majority of energy is put into the technique and strength of the fundamental movements of that sport. You don’t tell a sprinter to squat heavy everyday for hours and that’ll improve their sprint and you don’t tell a powerlifter to sprint jump and do handstands everyday to improve their SBD.
You kind of shot yourself in the foot at the end of your argument. Louie literally preaches doing jumps and weighted jumps to improve your squats. I’ve done a lot of sports even played football in college and trained with a coach who has an Olympic sprinter. And we only actually ever sprint 2x a week at the most 3 but that’s extremely rare and it would be very low volume. Most things we work on our drills and exercises that transfer to your sprint. A lot of conditioning. Not actually sprinting and it worked ran the fastest 40 I’ve ever ran in my life with that coach. I was of the school of belief if I wanted to sprint fast I need to sprint often and he showed me that was completely wrong.
@@footba11fan41ife oh okay, I guess I shouldn’t have referenced that then haha. I just know from the many competitions I’ve won and others I know have won nationals and worlds, when they are training for a competition they focus on competition lifts and as a side accessory maybe they’ll do a few plyos or sprints but it would mainly be competition lifts, but yeah I don’t know enough about track and field obviously 🤣 thanks for the info though nice
16:01 that's not true man, come to Europe, compete here and look with your eyes how it works. You can't generalize and say "worldwide". The world in not only America and Asia.
I started lifting as a 5'10 kid. I gained weight, gained weight, gained weight and my lifts went up. Then my BW continued to go up and my lifts didn't and in fact went down in the squat. I am currently, at 44, losing weight gradually to pump my lifts up again.
Quite difficult mobility and technique wise. If a strongman transitions to weightlifting he will have a large surplus of strength and low technical skill. So he would need to focus on technique for a long time. I would say the opposite is easier, transitioning from weightlifting to strongman.
@@adamevans1989 Pretty sure he was doing weightlifting before getting into strongman. I remember he used to split jerk in the log press when he was younger.
Even Westside Barbell alumni don't agree with a lot of what Louie Simmons preaches. I think people need someone like Louie at some point in their lives but will outgrow what they can offer. Louie seems very hard set in his way, I guess it fits the hole powerlifting trope of being inflexible.
Is there any chance you'd cover periodization and training programs at some point? I don't know who your target audience is, but if it's "normal" people, then there are so many who get stuck just training linearly. Years of training the same amount of sets, same amount of reps, just add more weight, until they get stuck and stop lifting.
Zack, I really Love and appreciate your work, the passion and all that, and have been following you almost since you started the channel. But seriously, you need to re-evaluate your positions on drug use. Kate Nye, in my opinion, is a very good example of it. Maybe (and I really don't know, honestly) you guys are selecting the wrong athletes, or Maybe the wrong methodology. Take Colombia, for example, they probably don't even have 10,000 People weightlifting, and the have much better results in weightlifting. The drug use argument, in my opinion, has been detrimental for you coaches to just get better.
Yea it’s such a lame excuse. We win gold literally everywhere else. Defending ones position is fine, but simply not trying methods and dismissing them is another
@@KalispellBarbell I don't think it is necessarily lame. But I think 1.) It diminishes the success other countries and athletes have (implying everyone is on gear) 2.) Makes an impossibly hard to circunvent excuse for not improving the whole process - Honestly, I'm not even from the US, and I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm Just very passionate about WL, and think that if the US succeeds at WL, it will be beneficiary to the sport as a whole.
But are you saying Kate Nye is on drugs or is not on drugs? Are you saying the Columbians are not on drugs but just have better programming? The Columbian team has been popped internationally a number of times, much more than the US, which seems like significant evidence to me.
@@hamm0155 I'm not saying People are or are not on drugs. What I'm saying is that I'm not speculating on either side. And also, americans athletes have been popped on a multitude of sports, probably much more then Colombians
I don’t understand if you’re implying Kate nye is a bad example bc she is or isn’t using PEDs but to say that basically every other country isn’t blatantly abusing PEDs is absurd. Sure Americans are super likely to be doing it to but to a lesser extent. Some of our top weightlifters get drug tested in and out of competition upwards of 50+ times , whereas in countries like China, Iran, North Korea etc , WADA can’t even get in. They have to be drug tested @ competitions and by then they can make sure they’re clean
Bit off topic, only a bit, but I wonder if Mat Fraser did Conjugate? What I think to know about Mat Fraser: he trained on his own after leaving weightlifting, so he must have used some programming, he loves to reach out for the best in any sport, he injured his spine (like Louie) and he has, rehabed with, and still uses a reverse hyper (invented by Louie btw), also he said in a podcast he snatched with bands in training, and he openly talks about isolated high repetition exercises... (what many CrossFitters do, but absolutely is not CrossFit) I haven‘t read and never will read his book, but anyone knows if he‘s a follower of Louie?
You gotta remember too, some of Americas top athletes go on to play football or basketball, not weightlifting. This is not the case in other countries where weightlifting and the Olympics is the highest goal.
Perhaps some sports, such as weightlifting, lend themselves to coercion and habitual/mechanical training. Snatch a child from the home, force child to train these simple movements (relative to other sports), and results follow. In a sport such as basketball, rote training doesn't necessarily lead to success.
A lot of great points raised all round. I do agree with Louie that American weightlifters aren't as strong as they should be. But they definitely are working on strength. I heard great things about Zaks programs. Loads of general strength that'll give the capability of supporting heavier Snatches and Cleans. I definitely felt Louie was better at conveying his point over Rip.
Louie said it himself: They dropped the press, and people started believing speed is more important than strength. In the press, speed is not a factor. In the jerk, it is probably the most important factor. Also, lifts were no contact in the old school days, so strength was much more important. With contact, however, speed becomes much more important. Seems like Louie just likes the old school days more. Which is cool, but contemporary weightlifting is just a different sport. Also, if you think strength is what's holding us back, you could just compare simple squat and pull numbers. My guess is that US athletes squat and pull numbers will ve similar to those of other countries. If strength were the primary issue, just increasing your squat and pull would be the answer, but anybody who has been in weightlifting knows that people with relatively lower strength numbers routinely outperform stronger people in the snatch and clean and jerk.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I misspoke! I actually believe that the Chinese youth selection system is the MOST important factor to their success. I made it seem like their drug program (whatever it may be) is the most important and I apologize for that.
Chinese really care about the Olympics. I read and researched that they recruit least 10,000 kids. Using the best of their genetics (along with pharmacology)
algorithmic selection and supraphysiological amounts of talent. also they have a solid trenning system
@@matsbartram7642 nice 👍🏽 😊
Nothing like having 10-20M new candidates per annum for your national grinder model
But it is kind of the drugs tho…
Louie Simmonds and the Chinese Weightlifters is my favourite band
With hits like
*I’m Not 5’1” and *Everyone Does Conjugate
Who would not love this band
😂😂😂 mine too!👍😂
Sounds like a band with a lot of tension
😂
Hannish Coles is my favorite fantasy Olympic weightlifting champion...
The sheer numbers in the Chinese sports university system and Olympic training system are staggering- not just in weightlifting, but all competitive sports. Take sanda (Chinese kickboxing) for example. I know guys who are absolute badass sanda fighters who got cut from their sports university programs for not being able to compete with their peers who moved on to the next level. It's hard for most people to wrap their heads around the extreme number of humans China has to draw from for sports that other countries don't.
Plus they are actively funneling these people into those programs. Most other countries are missing developmental programs to go from local/parochial to regional to national. Any random population has similar odds of high potential performers, they just go unnoticed or underdeveloped.
@@MairtinMcNamara exactly. A big population does not always equate to success in sports. There’s a lot more to it like what you mentioned
@@MairtinMcNamara yes, I dislike when people attribute China's success to trash they pulled out of their ass. China is one of the most active and hard-working country's for its own people. Their results speak for themselves.
xi is the world-spirit
A sad reality is that so many people are funnelled into these programmes that most of them won't make it to the more advanced level. They had often stopped their studies and everything to focus on training from a very young age, thus closing off most other paths in life. This and everything else make it very difficult for the people cut from the programmes to make a living afterwards.
In the US weightlifting lives in the niche of lifting sports and said lifting sports are themselves already niche, there is 0 state structure and 0 monetary incentives, weightlifting is a pure hobby sport, meanwhile you have these other countries with strong state founded programs that pump a lot of resources into the sport, and weightlifting is viewed has a salvation from poverty and a legitimate way of life , of course they are going to have athletes with higher genetic potential and generally more dedication, plus simply more people actually doing the sport, like Zack stated has soon has US weightlifting had a jump of popularity you saw better results.
Facts
I tell you one thing, as a middle aged lifter training in China with a local coach on my lunch break, Chinese system seems crazy technical to me. I had a 1 rep squat max of about 130kg and he had me training empty bar for almost a month before letting me squat any real weight. So much more emphasis on flexibility than anything I have seen on UA-cam so far.
You feel you got better, bruh? Also, you think their system translates well to people with, let’s say, less than optimal geometry?
thank you for the insight on your training.
@@DJBlackCard well, I've been with this guy for about 3 months and my previous 1rm was just thighs parallel. Last week I did 120x5 atg, followed by 100 for 5x5, so yeah. I don't believe in the geometry any more. I think it's more about taking flexibility seriously, and, at 51, I'm after staying healthy more than chasing numbers.
@@bailewen Serious progress, congrats. I do believe that geometry definitely plays a role, however. Especially in the snatch. I don’t think it’s anything a coach can’t work around, but I do think that if you don’t ever coach “long”, 6’3” guys and then you meet one and want his snatch to look just like Lu’s, you’re likely going to have a problem. I just don’t know to what extent Chinese coaches insist on the “aesthetic”, let’s say, of lifts. Or if they’re willing to work to find the optimal positions for each lifter.
How does the flexibility work look?
Weightlifting in China might be like football (soccer for my US friends) in Spain, UK, Italy and many places of Europe: many people go into the sport, the best are selected and maybe, just maybe, a few of them get the chance to play professionaly. That way the best athletes are participating. Like you said in one video, maybe the best weightlifter out there is working at a seven-eleven job and it is completely oblivious to the sport of Olympic Weightlifting. Promotion is key.
100%. Another great example is rugby.
I also think that with such a huge population, China is at an advantage in terms of its likelihood of having many gifted and skilled candidates to train. Like you said, you have to find them but even though, China might have roughly the same proportion of genetically advantage people for weightlifting as any other place they will have more in raw numbers. Not that only genetics matter of course.
I don’t think I can post links here, but a UA-camr called jxmyhighroller did a great video about one of the worst players in the NBA and how much better he is than your local gym hero, or even an extremely talented college player. Winnowing down a wide base to the top few hundred talents in the world produced some really incredible athletes
No, they don't have so many lifters. They just select the people with the wright attributes
Does their tiny size work for or against them ? Probably for if you had the right body to go with short height right?
Yeah but the snatch is only 1/5th of your equipped bench so yeah hard to see where you're coming from here Zack
All I know is I’m way stronger in everything ever since I started following the westside barbell method. But hey you can miss out if you want to bro
Westside Barbell believes raw strength is more important than speed. Raw strength is the ultimate...even if you need to compete equipped.😂
@@MarkoAssi_pokervloggerexactly
As someone who lifts at Westside and is in the gym with Lou 4 days a week, I will tell you that he does practice what he preaches. Reach out if you want some clarity or an explanation to some of your questions
I think this guy is just trying to get clicks. I watched some stuff from west side. And a lot with dave from elit and sounds like you guys know how to get strong.
@@douglasmueller4684 No Zack isn't. To think Lou has some magical ideas about how to get better at weightlifting that the we (the weightlifting community) just don't know about in the US is insane, arrogant, and silly.
@@andrewmontgomery1763 actually your response sounds arrogant and silly.
@@marcoleone8189 No it doesn't.
@@calumbell2276 Now you do too.🤣
Louie is a great guy and has successfully encouraged so many people around the world to get stronger. That makes this a difficult video to make. But I think Zack was very respectul and excellently articulated where he disagrees with Louie. Love the content, well done Coach ZT.
Zack i like your critical perspective ...it seems you worry a lot about offending these big names, but there is a subtle difference between “calling out the bullshit, and not the bullshitter”. Hopefully they can tell the difference, but if not, they just don’t get it. This is how the field advances, so keep it up - voices like yours are what push things forward.
I feel like it's more to avoid stupid ass people in the comments section who don't understand criticism isn't attacking.
I've never squatted or pulled as heavy and as frequently as I have on weightlifting programs. Since there's no reason to train the press like you would the bench press in powerlifting, tons of volume in every weightlifting program I've ever seen and used is devoted to heavy-ass pulls and squats. Louie is a legend in equipped powerlifting, and Rippetoe... uh, coaches some elderly people sometimes, I guess, but they're both way out of their depth every time they opine on a sport they do not participate in or contribute to in any meaningful way.
I actually love Louie Simmons. I've been a "fan" of Westside Barbell for nearly 20 years, mostly I found inspiration in the atmosphere and mentality that the Westside lifters seemed to have. That gym has produced not only some of the best powerlifters the sport has ever seen but also some of the most notable coaches and fitness personalities in the world today. Mark Bell, Dave Tate, John Meadows, JM Blakely, Swede Burns, Matt Wenning, etc. Even the great Ed Coan credits Louie as being a friend and mentor to him back in the day. That being said, I'll be the first to admit Louie is NOT always right.
I would like to see the clean and press added back into weightlifting or I’d like to see strengthlifting become even as half as powerlifting and weightlifting.
@@damionjackson1743 What exactly is strengthlifting? I don't think I've heard that term before. Pardon my ignorance.
John Meadows trained there for 6 months, of course he learned a great deal but it's not like Louie made him
@@maxxxmodelz4061 Squat, strict press, and conventional dead.
@@sushiter Never said that. However, if you watch John's videos, he mentions his time at Westside and refers to it every so often. He was also very good friends with Dave Tate, which stems from their time together at Westside, and they've discussed training there on the podcast. John had several videos where he's showing certain exercises and how he learned a lot there.
He’s back!
Yesterday I watched this video, and today Hampton Morris did USA's first WR in 55 years.
Great video Zack. WSBB does have an open door policy that I have taken advantage of a few times and this would also be a great discussion for their podcast. It might be worth considering taking the trip to share a qualified and current opinion with Louie and Tom. Thanks for all you do.
Louie is a great guy and has helped me and countless others
Guys a legend.
To argue against Louie's point at 10:00, I have a 275 front squat, a 365lb back squat, and a 425lb conventional deadlift. My snatch and c&j are 185 and 225 respectively. This correlates more with my squat than my deadlift, meaning my legs are the bottleneck here. If my legs were stronger, I could lift more weight on the olympic lifts. Upping my deadlift will add minimal improvement to my olympic lifts.
Conversely, I know plenty of people who have a squat much closer to their deadlift, and their snatch and c&j are still correlating with their squat numbers in the same fashion, meaning they have higher numbers than me despite a weaker pull. Leg strength is king in weightlifting.
I would argue that. I have similar numbers but a 335 back squat, 310 front squat, 445 conventional deadlift. Snatch and c&j are 185 and 255. According to that I shouldn't c&j more than you since my back squat is weaker than yours. I think the main point for both of us is that we probably suck at technique big time since we should be able to c&j way more with these raw numbers. Watch Gabriel Sincraians videos about what your olympic lifts relative to your strength numbers should be.
Your take 13:30 makes his point. Too many American coaches are afraid to try new things. I very rarely see unorthodox pulls and back exercises being done. Maybe I live in a shoebox
Exactly!! How can you know if you don’t try?
Why nothing is said about the fact that you can make a living from just weightlifting if you make it on a team in Russia ( assuming China too). Like no job - you just lift weights. And you get decent salary. What do you get if you make it on US team (excluding possible sponsors or ad revenue)?
And China covers college too
The slim chance of an Olympic medal.
If I was a young HS star athlete who can play football and also clean heavy, the D1 scholarship and a potential lucrative NFL contract sounds more appealing.
Don't they take prize money too? Like they did with the tennis player i think it was Li Na.
They do great things for their athletes but they do terrible things too
@@phanphan2251 yh but you are basically secure pretty much
@@cjpearce1407 True, just don't talk shit about Xi or you'll get JackMa
As always I love the content. I also really love the care taken to be clear that this is respectful critique from someone who is “one the same side,” given all the mindless beefing that happens on social. There is obviously a huge scientific component to this sport and respectfully debating what the data mean is an important part of science, even if it’s not the norm on UA-cam etc.
Thanks for reacting on the podcast. Great content!
the problem for the US is lack of talent. and there's lack of talent because the best people don't want to put their effort into a sport that has a very low input:output payoff when they could be playing a high-profile and $$$$$ sport like football.
This 100%!!!! if u took even the low level nfl dudes amd just put em in other sports records would be torn to shreds. If u took saquon barkely who cleaned 405 wit absolute crap form he’d be a better clarenceO
This is 100% the case. It's the reason white athletes have been dropping out of football and basketball too. They have better prospects then getting into the NBA and NFL.
Nonsense. Unless you’re superheavyweight sized you’re not playing in the nfl anyway. Also limby football wouldn’t make good lifters anyway.
@@HkFinn83 even more nonsense. garbage even. football was just one example (not to mention nfl players are not all "superheavyweight.") there's lots of other lucrative sports for athletes of all sizes. can't believe that even needs to be said.
@@HkFinn83Christian Ronaldo might not be a gold medal prospect but all those top soccer guys would be the best weightlifter in their country if they chose to focus on weightlifting from a young age. The fast twitch fibres can’t be taught, they are born that way and that talent will follow the money.
Louie is the skinner meme.
Am I wrong?
No, no it's the kids who are wrong.
If Louis Simmons says you need to do more snatch grip deadlifts, then God dammit you need to do more snatch grip deadlifts!!
Your arguments are so structured and respectful. Bow to you, sir.
Small point: I think it would be more fair to say that, if Simmons (or Rippetoe or whoever) is going to say that American weightlifting coaches are not training strength correctly, it's not necessarily that they need to train lifters to do better (Zack's claim around 9:15), but that they need to specifically detail what the programming should be that is both (a) not what American coaches already do and (b) not contrary to what the winning teams are doing.
Fair point
Please don’t put a legend like Louie in the same sentence as rippetoe (I don’t mind him but cmon now he’s not n never was at the same level as Louie n hasn’t ever produced athletes as strong as Louie has consistently). This isn’t a hater comment it’s just different levels of coaching n Louie’s life work & legacy, just a question of respect 💯💯💯
Louis means that our lifters are weak. They have weak CNS output. That they’re legs are strong but their backs are weak. He’s believes and built a lot of his own approaches to power from Russian weightlifting. Volume, resistance, accessory work. Good morning, reverse hypers, hamstrings.. it’s one of his first podcasts but he talks on weightlifting. He believes that America focus’s on form way to much. That when they put 10 more pounds on the bar they can’t make the list, that if they catch the bar wrong they don’t have the raw strength to save the lift. There’s substance in anything. Louis is rough around the edges and can be judged by his appearance but he is a smart man and has trained in weightlifting and trained weightlifters. He may not be right, but he’s not wrong.
I like his quote that if strength didn’t matter there wouldn’t be weight classes.
The strongest enemy of Louie Simmons is Louie Simmons
Just like mark?
I'm in the process of transitioning from CrossFit to Olympic Weightlifting only. I enjoy the technicality and the nuance of the lifts too much and would rather do that everyday.
I believe it's important to remind ourselves that every individual has different aspects of their lifts to work on. I'm a small athlete (155#, 5'5"), and it's really tough for me to add strength. Therefore, I focus a lot on heavy pulls, squats, frequent near max snatch/cj attempts. Technique and speed have been something I can pick up much faster so there's less focus there in going for improvements. For example, my current clean is 255# and my front squat is 280# (~91% ratio). Lastly, I focus a lot on mobility as my hamstrings, mid/upper back, lats, shoulders are tight!
Has Louis ever trained someone to the peak of weightlifting even national ?
I think Louie was partially correct here. We have a strength difference with the other traditionally weightlifting countries. Look at our top athletes in the sport. They almost all exclusively come from crossfit. They weren't selected to be weightlifters, they became ones because they wanted to. How many of those athletes would Chinese or old school Bulgarians pick to be a part of the team? I tell ya, zero. Drugs are definitely a factor, but a factor after this selection process. Russians looked at children as young as 9 and determined if they could cut it. In the US, mainly former athletes (like gymnasts and cheerleaders) chose weightlifting AFTER completing their previous career. Plus, let's admit our girls won only because others where banned from competing.
I agree - weightlifting is still seen as more of a hobby sport in the US. For good reason too. If you're athletically gifted, why would you choose weightlifting over something like football, basketball, or baseball? There just isn't much money or prestige in it compared to the more popular sports.
This is exactly the issue idk how anyone is missing the point shits simple anyone who could be doing the best stuff usually goes into sports that have more money in em (or well compared to WL whatever money is more than WL 😂😂) so until there’s an actual incentive to do that it’s not very likely that the states will have athletes at the level of anyone from any of the countries that actually care about WL or PL etc… so many are quick to blame PEDs but it’s not that, it’s fkin participation mixed with effort n cultural significance 💯💯💯
This is my 2nd video of you that I've watched. I like your vibe man.
It’s difficult to evaluate what Louie says when considering the disjointed presentation style that he articulates himself with. There’s reasons for that, of course, but it makes it harder to track and then engage the contentions he asserts and how he justifies them.
The easiest way to understand Louie is find the relevent Elite FTS video where Dave Tate explains wtf he actually means
well said
It’s because his brain is melted.
@@aidanivesdavis I mean it literally is a medical condition. I think he mentioned it once but don't remember it exactly. Complications during surgery or sth?
Might be talking out of my ass but I believe there was sth like that.
@@MellonVegan yes they messed on a surgery and he had some brain damage and when they cut his throat , he can only sleep a few hours at a time
Good vid and breakdown man.
One Louie anecdote that sticks out to me is I remember reading he always asked somebody looking to train at WSBB one key question -- "Who do you want to train at Westside?" For which there was only one acceptable answer: "To break world records."
Anyways, that's not really very relevant to the discussion but I thought I'd share it anyways.
Well, that's really where Louie's success as a powerlifting guru and the records his gym has achieved is all about. It's not his "method" as he likes to believe. It's the mindset, the mentality that he seems to engrain in is lifters. It's the atmosphere and the guys in that gym at any given time that made it great. If you listen to any lifter who actually trained at Westside, even if they were just guests for a time, that's the common philosophy they all have. The objective is to break records. If you aren't trying to break a PR, then there's no reason to be in the gym. It's just a mindset that Westside seemed to establish from the very early days. Louie readily admits this. It was the guys he had around him that made the gym great.
SPF squat records don't count.
@@maxxxmodelz4061 You don't think Louie knows his coaching involves as much mental work as physical? Seriously? His method almost revolves around it
13:10 about that, the Italians are having pretty good success with a rather squat heavy approach/a big focus on leg strength.
Yeah, we all watched Seb's video about them.
But once again, what about their program is any different from literally any other? Can you name ONE weightlifting program that doesn't focus on squatting and doesn't have a big focus on leg strength? lol
That's basically a toned down version of what Louie/Rippetoe say.
Specially for developmental programs, squatting and pulling is often more frequent than snatch and clean and jerking. Check Gabriel Sincraian's takes on programming and how to get better at weightlifting. The answer is always the same: Get stronger.
@@kblkbl I guess Chinese pull more than they squat (squat 2x week only)
Let’s go morning upload squad 🤝✅
Here for the algo, keep up the consistent content zach channels really been blowing up’
🤝
Never acknowledge the algo. Just comment.
@@derrick_v shut up lmao
Just stumbled onto your channel! Just wanted to say I’m loving the content!
Zack, if you noticed, our biggest improvements in weightlifting has come on the women's side not the men's side. And that's because the world isn't that far ahead of us on women's weightlifting because their countries haven't been vested in the sport that much longer than us (on the women's side). I think Louie (being an old man) was referring to men.
In terms of the mens side, most of the top male athletes in the US end up going to play D1 sports with a more potentially lucrative future. There is not much incentive besides a potential Olympic gold in mens weightlifting for a young athlete in most American schools. I do not doubt there is talent out there.
Meanwhile other countries WL stars are considered how Americans see a Michael Jordan or Tom Brady
China begs to difer...
The same thing that Japanese coach was saying in Japan. Good lifters have strong back, Mr louie was saying it also 2 years ago.
Please review lifts of Caeleb Dressel. His currently fastest swimmer in the world. Most of his dry land(strength training) is Olympic lifts. But his Olympic lifts doe not exceed above 70kg.
Probably because if he risks lifting above his BW he risks injury doing a totally different sport and then team USA is screwed
I notice that powerlifter always criticize weightlifting on performance. But on the other side weightlifters don't really give a shit about powerlifters lol. It's like they know they have bigger squats and deadlifts, but they know damn sure that doing a proper snatch with an empty bar ATG is hard AF for them lol.
Powerlifting is an inferior sport. It evolved as odd lifts from Weightlifting. Current and past weightlifters use power lifts as assistance lifts. The notable difference between the two sports is that ALL weightlifting mouvements are overhead lifts.
Every country needs this kind of support @03:32
I know this may sound pedantic, but ku Xiaojun has always been 77-81 kg as a senior (170-179 lbs), not 154 lbs. That's a 16-25 lb difference...
a very nice video.... I do have one thing to note about our coaches not stressing strength. Zack said he didn't know of any coaches not pushing strength.i have been in olympic lifting for 59 plus years . I can think of three coaches offhand in the midwest who don't push strength. one in particular told me it was only necessary to front squat 10 kilos more than the lifters best clean! no names obviously in this forum but maybe sometime over a beer,,,,
Lou's protocols for strength increase are pretty pretty pretty clear. Rogue used to have a T with his justification quote as well. "When i go to war i go to kill, not to get killed".
Enjoyed this video Zack. Good one
Zack the ending music seems like Denis & Denis' (Yugoslav pop duo)'program tvog kompjutera' ?
Former hockey player and weightlifter, here. For the most part you are correct about how the Russians learned to play hockey. Anatoly Tarasov, the father of Russian hockey was also a bandy coach. Bandy is similar to hockey where it's played on ice, but with a stick similar to a field hockey stick and a ball. The strategy of both sports is the same, put the puck or the ball in the net. The Russians used a finesse style of play where they would change positions during play such as the center moving to wings, defensemen moving to center, center moving to defenseman, ect. The Canadians used more of a zone defense and offense. The Russians focused mainly on skating drills and puck handling drills which are the basis of their play, and the fundamental hockey.
How does this relate to Weightlifting in the USA? Stick to perfecting the snatch and clean and jerk, focus on the basics of Weightlifting training. We have a growing pool thanks to crossfit, with more and more coaches learning the fundamentals of Weightlifting. What is the point of getting a huge squat or deadlift if your technique is going to fall apart? It defeats the purpose. The Russians focused on the basics fundamentals of hockey, we need to focus on the basics of Weightlifting. Sorry for the long dissertation.
No need to apologize I appreciate it!
Only 6:06 into it and I had to make my first comment about the person who cleans 360 and front squats 370. First, this lifter has amazingly efficient technique. But more importantly, we don't know anything about this lifter or this lifter's coach. Louis wants us to infer that this lifter has a crappy coach because the lifter only front squats 370. If this lifter is in their mid 20s and lifting for over a decade, yeah, this lifter has a crappy coach. But this changes if the lifter is a teenager and their coach currently has the lifter on a strength cycle designed to increase squat strength. This cherry-picking of data with no context gets really tiresome really fast.
@@22448824 Could be. Alexeev apparently could C&J more than he could front squat, but that was Alexeev.
The point is simple: it is not that you dont train strenght, the point is that you dont train strenght ENOUGH. That it is. Sthephy Cohen said something similar in one of your own videos. She mentions that some poeple (in Crossfit I think) do a lot more than Olympic lifters in military/strict press. Put more priority into old fashion muscle and strenght and you will do better in Olympic lifting. And that means UPPER BODY AS WELL!!!
Cause in CF they train more strict press and such, for a WLer an increase in strict press doesn't mean an increase in snatch not even in jerk,
@@bakarone and such means a lot lot lot more than that. and such means pull ups, many bodybulding accesosory, deadlifts, strenght pulls, combine streght with hipertrophy, and diet to reduce body fat and being usually far more lean than then opponents (fat to muscle ratio which in turn means more potential for strenght than their opponents). Klukov is another example with a 200kg bench press.
Love the vids! Was wondering, have you ever used UESAKA bars and plates? And if so, what is your opinion on them, Thanks
This video has single handedly inspired me to try weightlifting.
what zack said made a lot of sense, based on the info given i would be inclined to agree
RIP to the LEGEND! 🇺🇸🇺🇸
thank you zack for yet another wholesome lunch
What if it's not a programming or technique problem? What if it's just that anyone who has Olympic potential goes into a sport that pays well?
Most of the sports that "pay well" favor the taller athlete. Sure, you might have a 5' 9" running back on a football team, but your typical lineman is like 6' 6" 300 lbs. Then you have Jose Altuve who is a baseball phenom at 5' 6", but most baseball players are over 6". Heck even golfers seem to be over 6'. What we need is a recruitment/feeder program to steer into weightlifting those athletically talented people who otherwise would be "too small" to get to the professional level.
Leg strength will only get you so far in WL. You could back squat 400kg, but that doesn't mean you will clean and jerk it. The closer the Oly lifts are to your max squat numbers, the better technique you have.
Meanwhile recall someone said the snatch is 1/2 your deadlift.
Standards based on percentages and reps work for squats amd deadlifts, but it does not always translate for movements like the clean and snatch. However, strength is a factor in WL success.
I really like this long form type of video
Watching this again after Hamp broke a Sr. world record
I matters who is in the room. Training partners matter. I was a very good weightlifter, took a break for a bit, returned but didn't have a gym to go to. I never reached my potential and burned myself out training alone. About 6 days a week for 3 years and I was never able to beat PRs that a hit 1 year into weightlifting. I had a coach who's name rhymes with snacks beta so I know the coaching was no point. Now when I look at a barbell it is with pure hatred and discust. For 3 years no fun was had. Training partners matter.
Also factor in the type of personality. Some people perform better around people, some without, then there's those who are anytime, anywhere, DGAF who are in the room.
For serious competing lifters a coach is a must and even other high competitive athletes in the room.
I was an Olympic lifter in the 1970's and could overhead press my bodyweight for 10 reps. I've seen some of the modern lifters not even press their weight. I would back squat well over my best clean for sets of 10 and front squat my clean for reps ! Olympic lifters need to be strong.
so, did you have better results in competition than those modern lifters you mention?
It's so rare for old school weightlifters to make comments on videos like these. You all usually seem to keep to yourselves. Big fan of the old style of training and the focus on strength as a fundamental aspect of training for the sport.
I think on the topic of Chinese lifters that they specifically need more upper body strength training. They all have incredible cleans and snatches but tend to be weaker in the jerk and I think this is part of it. Especially strict pressing
I'm doing one of your programs right now and it has and I expect will continue to make me stronger. My pulls have improved immensely.
Also, it's one of the programs where you have a few weeks of eccentric work, so bust that other point from him.
@@PeteBlair is that pull volume program or the positional program.
@@nischal711 It is the 8 week hypertrophy program.
How’s sikastan s youth selection system
I bet the Chinese are getting nervous
8:44
I think one key factor in why Mr Simmons and Mr Rippetoe focus and harp on strength being the deficit in Oly weightlifting is because Strength focus is their specialty and having that be the single most important factor validates their methodology. It validates and projects their narrative and business, which to be fair is part of their job as business owners, its also their job to update their methods or step aside and allow the next generation to do so
True. Life is about money
But how are they wrong though? Louie specifically… I mean just look at the build of the chinese weightlifters compared to the US is obvious we’re not building enough muscle to move bigger weight strength.
@@footba11fan41ife Toshiki Yamamoto is a perfect example of this...
About China selecting their lifters, i read a tweet from Steve Sailer (yes that guy) on how China's selection is. One girl wanted to be a vet, that was her dream. She had awesome leverages for weightlifting so she was selected even though she wasn't drawn to the sport. She was told she could pursue becoming a vet after she won a gold medal. That's how serious China is with weightlifting
Asians have been that way a long ass time. When I was a kid I remember hearing about how they would ask a kid what they wanted to be. The kid would say they wanted to be an astronaut or firefighter or whatever. Then they would ask the kids what they were going to be, and the kids would have an answer.
@@cjparkeffaking4551 huh??
It sounds like he's saying that the first pull for the clean should set up more like a stiff-leg deadlift instead of relying primarily on leg-drive. I don't necessarily agree. It's just what I'm trying to gather from his comments.
Do they still think that thé first pull when performing a clean is similar to a deadlift?
You are quite well spoken and are walking a tightrope criticizing Simmons but your points were well made. Why do you think in all these years with his reputation nobody has recruited him to train
Olympic lifting? First and probably foremost is Westside has many members using 'roids. I also don't believe he is the type to be part of a team of coaches, he has spent too many years coaching
people that go to his gym only where his word is final. There is only so much time that Olympic lifters can spend on other exercises and don't believe for a second they are neglecting basic
power movements.
I can't speak confidently as I've only really watched Louie and West Side in a couple of small docs but they seem like the type that'll aggravate injuries in the name of being tough. I've heard members saying that it's discouraged for them to take the right amount of time off and rehabilitating injuries. I'm sure this brand of hyper-macho, adrenaline-fueled lifting has its advantages to whatever the layman in the gym will do, but when competing against the top guys in 2021 who take adequate rest time and train with a 21st Century understanding of lifting, diet and recovery, they're surely fighting an uphill battle.
Full watched. I still love Louie and his ideas but as someone trying to grow we have to take certain useful things from multiple people and we don’t always have to agree with all of the ideology.
100% Take what is useful, disregard what is useless. Empty your cup and be willing to learn.
Hello....what you think about the documentary "American Weightlifting " directed by Gregg Everett?
Man I’ve been wanting to get into weightlifting for a few years now, but there isn’t a coach close enough to me to teach me and I don’t really have to money to even if there was. It’s super tough but I suppose I’ll just enjoy this content either way
It’s hard to find Olympic weightlifting trainer I hope you find one, trust me you will be glad you did.
You could find a coach who doesnt specialize in oly lifting, but who trains athletes. There is a high chance he/she knows the basics. Or you can teach yourself to start. My point is dont procrastinate!
Someone tell Louie about Vardanyan's absurd c&j to front squat ratio
14:55 "Steroids doesn't make you stronger, you are just born that way" - Loui Simmons
🤣
steroids make a lifter stronger relative to them not being on anything, but they do not on their own make a person "strong"
US has recently been dominating powerlifting, i.e John Hackk, Russel Orhii, Julius Maddox, Ray Williams due to its increasing popularity. I hope weightlifting sees the same surge and we get some freaks of nature with the spread of the sport
That's mostly true, but not the full truth. First of all, I was extremely surprised more than a decade ago, when I learned that my Eastern European country traded places in Powerlifting with the USA. We tended to do better in lower weight classes, so obviously it wasn't simply about the gear.
The thing is, at the time around here nobody knew what Powerlifting even was? The gym goers were clueless about it. And they could beat you guys?
Back then, when Louie was so universally regarded, you guys definitely did something wrong.
Then you changed. I remember Smalcerz being hired by you guys, for a little while, because you couldn't be bothered to stick with the project. Anyway, he predicted you gonna do much better after about six years. And you did.
So over all, Zack is most likely correct. Your training is fine right now. You are getting beat by mass selection and gear. But when Louie was in vogue, you were getting beat at *his* sport, not the sport he pretends to understand.
This is simply what happens when a Strength only coach starts criticizing a sport where Strength is only 1 major part of a sport.
10:26 look at ed coan deadlift form compared to the girl you just showed that is what Louie is referring to there
Simmons/Rippetoe are gonna continue to say this till they either drop dead or every weightlifter can go toe-to-toe with a similarly-sized powerlifter in the power lifts. They're butthurt over the prestige attributed to WL over PL.
What they actually want is validation that powerlifters (esp. the ones they produce) are every bit as athletic/good/sexy as weightlifters. As long as they can hold 900lbs+ squats over the WL world's head they'll never shut the fuck up.
I think Louie is used to being almost the messiah of strength in the US, and therefore what he says is irrefutable in his mind. A lot of what he has done for strength sports in the US is great, but in the interest of sport specificity, especially on the world level, his reasoning lacks (I think) because of no exposure to that type of athlete. "I do not know what I do not know"
He used to do weightlifting but then switched to PL, imo it’s more likely that Louie has a way of speaking that many people can’t totally understand due to him assuming you already know half of what he’s trying to say, but he ain’t wrong the states suck at WL n it’s due to lots of naïveté n no money behind it plus the other countries outwork tf outta us so until people work as hard as the other countries shit won’t be fixed
Now this is how to put out a respectful disagreeing video.
Now this is how to put out a respectfully disagreeing video. Props to you as a man dude!
Louie is to Oly lifting as a soggy potato is to a advanced supercomputer
Nothing
@@meruem6995ujjoooo 😂😂😂😂
Nice 😊 😂😂
You may have addressed this before, but coming from someone who has trained weightlifting 2 years very dedicated, trained powerlifting and strongman very dedicated for even longer. Both powerlifting and weightlifting focus on the same thing at the end of the day, the COMPETITION lifts. What does a powerlifters workout regimen generally include? Squat, bench, deadlift and accessories to improve those movements. I bet they wouldn’t tell their powerlifting students that they need to run faster to squat more weight, they would say they need to squat more often which means what? Improving technique. Yes there are accessories but at the end of the day no matter the sport, your majority of energy is put into the technique and strength of the fundamental movements of that sport. You don’t tell a sprinter to squat heavy everyday for hours and that’ll improve their sprint and you don’t tell a powerlifter to sprint jump and do handstands everyday to improve their SBD.
You kind of shot yourself in the foot at the end of your argument. Louie literally preaches doing jumps and weighted jumps to improve your squats. I’ve done a lot of sports even played football in college and trained with a coach who has an Olympic sprinter. And we only actually ever sprint 2x a week at the most 3 but that’s extremely rare and it would be very low volume. Most things we work on our drills and exercises that transfer to your sprint. A lot of conditioning. Not actually sprinting and it worked ran the fastest 40 I’ve ever ran in my life with that coach. I was of the school of belief if I wanted to sprint fast I need to sprint often and he showed me that was completely wrong.
@@footba11fan41ife oh okay, I guess I shouldn’t have referenced that then haha. I just know from the many competitions I’ve won and others I know have won nationals and worlds, when they are training for a competition they focus on competition lifts and as a side accessory maybe they’ll do a few plyos or sprints but it would mainly be competition lifts, but yeah I don’t know enough about track and field obviously 🤣 thanks for the info though nice
16:01 that's not true man, come to Europe, compete here and look with your eyes how it works. You can't generalize and say "worldwide". The world in not only America and Asia.
I started lifting as a 5'10 kid. I gained weight, gained weight, gained weight and my lifts went up. Then my BW continued to go up and my lifts didn't and in fact went down in the squat. I am currently, at 44, losing weight gradually to pump my lifts up again.
How difficult would it be for a strongman to transition to weightlifting?
Quite difficult mobility and technique wise. If a strongman transitions to weightlifting he will have a large surplus of strength and low technical skill. So he would need to focus on technique for a long time. I would say the opposite is easier, transitioning from weightlifting to strongman.
@@KhanBalkan I think the only one who could do it somewhat easily is Martins. Guy is crazy mobile.
@@adamevans1989 Pretty sure he was doing weightlifting before getting into strongman. I remember he used to split jerk in the log press when he was younger.
Even Westside Barbell alumni don't agree with a lot of what Louie Simmons preaches. I think people need someone like Louie at some point in their lives but will outgrow what they can offer. Louie seems very hard set in his way, I guess it fits the hole powerlifting trope of being inflexible.
Is there any chance you'd cover periodization and training programs at some point? I don't know who your target audience is, but if it's "normal" people, then there are so many who get stuck just training linearly. Years of training the same amount of sets, same amount of reps, just add more weight, until they get stuck and stop lifting.
Zack, I really Love and appreciate your work, the passion and all that, and have been following you almost since you started the channel. But seriously, you need to re-evaluate your positions on drug use. Kate Nye, in my opinion, is a very good example of it. Maybe (and I really don't know, honestly) you guys are selecting the wrong athletes, or Maybe the wrong methodology. Take Colombia, for example, they probably don't even have 10,000 People weightlifting, and the have much better results in weightlifting. The drug use argument, in my opinion, has been detrimental for you coaches to just get better.
Yea it’s such a lame excuse. We win gold literally everywhere else. Defending ones position is fine, but simply not trying methods and dismissing them is another
@@KalispellBarbell I don't think it is necessarily lame. But I think 1.) It diminishes the success other countries and athletes have (implying everyone is on gear) 2.) Makes an impossibly hard to circunvent excuse for not improving the whole process - Honestly, I'm not even from the US, and I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm Just very passionate about WL, and think that if the US succeeds at WL, it will be beneficiary to the sport as a whole.
But are you saying Kate Nye is on drugs or is not on drugs? Are you saying the Columbians are not on drugs but just have better programming? The Columbian team has been popped internationally a number of times, much more than the US, which seems like significant evidence to me.
@@hamm0155 I'm not saying People are or are not on drugs. What I'm saying is that I'm not speculating on either side. And also, americans athletes have been popped on a multitude of sports, probably much more then Colombians
I don’t understand if you’re implying Kate nye is a bad example bc she is or isn’t using PEDs but to say that basically every other country isn’t blatantly abusing PEDs is absurd. Sure Americans are super likely to be doing it to but to a lesser extent. Some of our top weightlifters get drug tested in and out of competition upwards of 50+ times , whereas in countries like China, Iran, North Korea etc , WADA can’t even get in. They have to be drug tested @ competitions and by then they can make sure they’re clean
Louie Simmons and Westside Barbell should focus more on perfecting the art of quarter squats.
How about a follow up video on that patriotic young American at 3:33
Holy shit that outro. This was the last place I thought I'd hear that song.
Bit off topic, only a bit, but I wonder if Mat Fraser did Conjugate? What I think to know about Mat Fraser: he trained on his own after leaving weightlifting, so he must have used some programming, he loves to reach out for the best in any sport, he injured his spine (like Louie) and he has, rehabed with, and still uses a reverse hyper (invented by Louie btw), also he said in a podcast he snatched with bands in training, and he openly talks about isolated high repetition exercises... (what many CrossFitters do, but absolutely is not CrossFit) I haven‘t read and never will read his book, but anyone knows if he‘s a follower of Louie?
I love that you chose Ovie highlights of him crushing people instead of his goal scoring ability 🤣12:39
You gotta remember too, some of Americas top athletes go on to play football or basketball, not weightlifting. This is not the case in other countries where weightlifting and the Olympics is the highest goal.
Perhaps some sports, such as weightlifting, lend themselves to coercion and habitual/mechanical training. Snatch a child from the home, force child to train these simple movements (relative to other sports), and results follow. In a sport such as basketball, rote training doesn't necessarily lead to success.
A lot of great points raised all round.
I do agree with Louie that American weightlifters aren't as strong as they should be.
But they definitely are working on strength.
I heard great things about Zaks programs. Loads of general strength that'll give the capability of supporting heavier Snatches and Cleans.
I definitely felt Louie was better at conveying his point over Rip.
Chinese lifter also get randomly tested, they follows the same protocol.
I can’t understand how one would benefit from training for a consistent force (gravity) by using banded weight. Maybe empty bar with bands
Louie said it himself: They dropped the press, and people started believing speed is more important than strength. In the press, speed is not a factor. In the jerk, it is probably the most important factor. Also, lifts were no contact in the old school days, so strength was much more important. With contact, however, speed becomes much more important. Seems like Louie just likes the old school days more. Which is cool, but contemporary weightlifting is just a different sport.
Also, if you think strength is what's holding us back, you could just compare simple squat and pull numbers. My guess is that US athletes squat and pull numbers will ve similar to those of other countries.
If strength were the primary issue, just increasing your squat and pull would be the answer, but anybody who has been in weightlifting knows that people with relatively lower strength numbers routinely outperform stronger people in the snatch and clean and jerk.
You did a great job. Yes, strength first.