My Theories For How Paper Mario TTYD Remake Was Even Possible | Discussion
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- Опубліковано 17 вер 2023
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If you're interested in the TTYD mod that I playing for the background footage, it's called Hero Mode and it's a more difficult version of the game with a new story and has a lot of new content and changes. It's really fun so I recommend checking the demo out if you like TTYD and want to play something before the remake: ua-cam.com/video/eM93faCK2uI/v-deo.html
Where the question block video?
As long as it's not mature and made for all ages and still has that Nintendo charm, then I'll play.
I can't wait until we get start seeing interviews about the thought process behind the remake. I think we're going to have a lot of our questions answered then
The fact the switch will have at least one game from each Mario RPG series is amazing.
Still no luck for the Mario & Luigi series though 😢
@@Goomba1309does NSO count?
@@instinctive3066 I mean... Kinda?
@@instinctive3066personally I dont think so, since NSO will eventually be discontinued
I hope there will be some way to play all the NSO games permanently once it's discontinued, no matter the cost.
It's my number 1 wish for the switch even more than good games or good controllers.
Personally, I think the reason why they tried to continuously move the paper mario series away from more traditional rpg elements are for a couple reasons. 1; I think the existence of the mario and luigi series made nintendo think paper mario had to be different. Mario and luigi didn’t have to be, it was only an rpg series so they couldn’t change what it was.
Super paper mario is the most sold game out of the PM series. Its also the most different, to nintendo they probably saw this and were like “right, paper mario can be whatever now”. To them, the main appeal of the game is the paper aesthetic and its what sets it apart from m&L.
This is even further proved when you see ttyd and superstar saga were released within about a year of each other. They both even used the same action commands, although this is still in paper mario so idk.
But i think the success of mario and luigi made nintendo think paper mario HAD to be made different. With the devs of mario and luigi gone, i think they just went ahead and remade 2 of the most iconic mario rpg games. If they really only looked at sales, SPM would have got a remaster/remake. If it was about oldies, paper mario 1 would have been the better choice. But they specifically chose ttyd. Which means i think they really did listen to fan feedback
So here's my theory. I think the ip control/character supervisors/the mandates and everything were real. It was probably because Nintendo got really protective over their IP. But why? And when did it start and what changed now?
I think it's because they wanted to set a clear standard of what Mario and the Mario world is supposed to be like. To avoid any confusion among the mainstream audience. Up till a certain point Mario games were very diverse. Kinda all over the place, which was great, there was something for everyone. But this also meant Mario meant something different for everyone. And this had to change, at least periodically.
If we take a look at when the Mario games really started to look like this "standard", a clear timeframe comes up. And this is around 2015/2016. There are a couple things noticeable about this timeframe.
Firstly Stickerstar Saga doesn't allign with this date. My guess would be that Stickerstar Saga was simply an unfortunate "accident". Maybe because of miscommunication, maybe because of a different vision, maybe something else altogether. But one thing is certain to me, it must have been an exception. Because if we take a closer look, we can see there are still a lot of games released afterwards that break the formula. M&L Dream Team Bros is probably the clearest example of this.
But starting from late 2015 we started seeing a change. Now the M&L series was also starting to look and feel more standarised, Colour Splash ofcourse right after that. And since then, most of the new releases would be remakes, ports etc. And even among the remakes like M&L changes were being made to fit more into the standard look of a Mario game. Sure, there were exceptions. Mario Odyssey being the clearest one, but that was made by Nintendo themselves. If anyone was allowed to break the norm, it was the ones who set it. There was also Mario+Rabbids, but I feel like that's a bad example. If I remember correctly, the thing that convinced Miyamoto during the first meeting was how faithful Mario and Luigi looked. They got the deal because they understood the Franchise. Sure they also impressed them with a fully playable demo and with how many new ideas they brought to the table, but at the core of it all was still faithfullness. Aka, the standard look of Mario.
So why did they want this standard look? Well, something else happened around that timeframe. Because around 2016, talks started for The Super Mario Bros Movie. And that's the final piece of the puzzle. It all starts to make sense now. Why? Because we have to remember the live action Mario movie. There was a clear lack of understanding what Mario as a franchise means. What makes Mario, well, Mario. And after that they got extremely cautious about making another movie. Now that they wanted to dip their toes in hot water again for a second attempt, there could be no doubt. They had to get this right. So all the games leading up to the development of this movie had to get it right as well. The audience had to get the right image, especially the new children playing the games. When they watch the movie you don't want them wondering "Where's Kammy?" for example, they would be disappointed.
And what do we see? Right after the movies release, all these projects get announced. Mario Bros Wonder especially is a clear change from the formula. And now with Charles Martinet stepping down, a clear new era for Mario has begun. With the movie serving as the middle point of the franchise going forward, the reference for any new fans to gets the point across. You couldn't have it more mainstream than a movie. With the movies succes, nintendo can start taking risks again. In fact, they have to take risks again to keep things interesting and keep the audience engaged. If we know one thing about Miyamoto, it's that he always wants to bring something new to the table. No 3D mario game is allike. That's why he wasn't too happy with Sticker Star's early build. Now it's just a matter of seeing what sticks, and what better time to experiment with what works than at the end of a consoles life, when the consoles succes isn’t depending on a game's succes.
18:00 Self-sabotage, I believe that's the word you're looking for to describe their direction post SPM. At least, that's how I believed.
The more we looking back the past dev interviews, it seems like there's a serious controversy going on in behind the scenes between Intelligent System and Nintendo over the recent years, over the past decade. Someone in the higher position, intentionally or unintentionally, was trying to hold dev creativity back over Mario spinoff specifically.
It was thank to the fans and the community's love this paper spinoff franchise lived.
Now that TTYD is greenlight approvaled to be remastered.
I just hope to god that this whole creativity debacle is officially over, never to hunting over this franchise from the dark.
SPM was self sabotage. Everything after was damage control.
Nah, I'm p sure it's because IS sabotaged themselves, and lied. They made up a Mario Restriction, because if said restriction was true, we wouldve have seen so many new and wild enemy designs over the same course of time.
iirc, I heard somewhere that the designers who were working on Sticker Star were constantly clashing with Tanabe to keep the game similar to earlier entries. Not to mention, he apparently frequently yelled at his employees. So I think there was a lot of internal developer conflict involved as well
Edit: I'm trying to find the source to this, but I can't find it. I'll keep looking though
@@squid_cake Yeah, plus, IS doesnt have the best track record of doing what fans want, I know Fire Emblem fans always have little faith in IS due to them making bad decisions.
Ok so i think the source is on a japanese job review thingy. But apparently I can't access it without living in japan and paying for a subscription so I can't look any further. I'm sorry
TTYD has been my favorite game forever and I've been hearing rumors about a possible remake/remaster for the past year or two, although I've definitely been trying to curb my expectations. As much as I can't believe it's actually happening, I'm even more surprised it seems to be getting the full remake treatment. While I really hope this is a good sign for the series going forward and hopefully they'll realize people want classic PM, I'm honestly just insanely excited to have a new definitive version of my favorite game of all time.
I think it was the Mario Movie. Story and characters are suddenly more important to them.
Nah, Odyssey was the start. Odyssey just had a lot of new ideas that broke away from the traits that the "New Soup" games started.
@@slumburger1145odyssey was 6 years ago? Tf are u on about 💀
@@slumburger1145Odyssey basically had it's story elementals squeezed in though. Maybe the positive reaction caused them to consider it, but they definitely didn't make Odyssey with that in mind.
@@slumburger1145 odyssey was 3 years before origami king
I had wondered a little if one of the reasons for the NSMB plainness of the Mario series was the upcoming movie. Making specifically certain aspects of Mario’s world be considered part of the general viewer’s expectations. It also makes sense Mario is heavily involved in the Nintendo theme park. Now that the development has concluded that major cycle, Mario is as on top of his game in a number of ways and is safe enough for his leeways again like on GameCube, more so than the disillusionment of Mario needing to be very vanilla.
this is exactly what i’ve been thinking! i think the “vanilla era” was a necessary evil to get to where we are now. Mario is more popular than ever, and now when the series strays from the norm, it feels that much more special.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a game’s release put more UA-cam channels I’ve never encountered before in my recommended feed than this one.
Just a counter to your point at 6:30. Mario Odyssey apparently started development right after Mario 3D World, a game that was released at the height of all these design restrictions, was released. Even if intelligent systems thought that they had to abide by these restrictions, it's clear that Nintendo was no longer enforcing them.
I think the 3D Mario games are a separate case and had any restrictions lifted much earlier (or have possibly had no restrictions at all). The Mario spin-offs seem to be treated a little differently and in Paper Mario's case, Nintendo might've assigned a strict "design supervisor" team during Sticker Star or Color Splash's development that stuck with Intelligent Systems during TOK's development.
Honestly I think Tanabe was lying out his ass about the supposed IP team.
We currently have 7 mario rpgs on the switch:
Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle
Paper Mario: The Origami King
Mario + Rabbids: Sparks OF Hope
Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga (Switch Online)
Paper Mario (Switch Online)
Super Mario RPG (Remake)
Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door (Remake/Remaster?)
I wouldn't consider the Rabbid games RPGs. Those are Tactical Strategy games without almost no RPG elements beyond weapon damage a limited skill tree.
And Origami King is not an RPG, period.
@@dukemon6163paper Mario the origami king is a game in a rpg series so it's a rpg by default.
@@ahmedhasan4966 Non-sense logic. Then Pokémon *Pinball* is an turn based RPG by default? Is Kirby *Fighters* a platformer? Is Hyrule Warriors an aventure game?
Mario doesn't get stronger by battling in Origami King, EXP doesn't exist, you can't customize Mario beyond equipping a few accesories that barely matter in battle. It's not an RPG by definition.
@@dukemon6163 ok that's not what I meant I wasn't comparing a spinoff to a mainline game.
@@ahmedhasan4966 Is Castlevania Symphony of the Night a stage based action-platformer? Is Resident Evil 5 a Survival Horror? Is Yakuza: Like a Dragon a Real Time Beat Them Up?
None of those are spin offs.
im just happy the big falic door design is still there
I'll say this right now, while I'm glad this is happening, I do not want to see more older fans lashing out at newer fans that may enjoy the more recent games. I've already seen some on Twitter tell them they're not real fans and that they don't need people like them in the fandom because they're the ones holding the series back. That right there is not cool.
this isn't a large scale project like a TOTK remastering a old GameCube game is low risk high reward
What mod/fangame was playing in the background of this video?
Hero mode. It doesnt go pass chapter 2
It's a mod called Hero Mode, it's a more difficult version of the game that includes a new story and features, there's a demo available now: ua-cam.com/video/eM93faCK2uI/v-deo.html
The writing felt like i was watching a book of mario game
I’m glad I wrote Nintendo a while back for thousand year door and fantasy life. I wrote level 5 for that
Do you think it will outsell TOK or Even Super?
I think it will easily be the highest selling Paper Mario game
I know some casual-nintendo gamers that bought TOK and didnt like it, so it may turned off a lot of gamers to buy another PM
zelda is a completely diffrent franchise@@RosbifChaud
@@winksice Yeah and i feel like the sales will get boosted thanks to the switch 2 coming out and people buying it on that system
@@ihaveanewchannle1188TOK is referring to Paper Mario's "The Origami King" not Zelda's "Tears Of the Kingdom"
My main question is who’s the director and producer for the remake and hoping that it’s the original who did the first 3
We would hope so, because I heard said original director just finished up some Fire Emblem card project that he's been working on for quite a while.
I would hope he sticks around for a good while longer for PM.
Tanabe is the producer for the sure. Hes the nintendo producer for the series since super paper mario.
first 2*
Actually, the characters thing being a mandate is a common misconception. It was just a request from miyamoto, it was never set in the rules they couldn’t
I honestly think mario vs donkey kong is being remade based on name alone.
A game just titled "mario vs donkey kong" will appeal immensely to normies and younger folks.
But, i actually knew nobody as a kid who had and played that game on gba lol
The reason why they're remaking SMRPG and TTYD is simple. There's not a whole lot of Mario RPG's on the Switch. While Mario RPG's are not the best selling games, they are without a doubt some of the best games ever made. Yes, we have Origami King and the Mario + Rabbids games, but they are a far cry to TTYD. OK was alright. I like the big connected world, but I hated the battle system. Like why? I'm not a fan of tactical RPG's, which is what Mario + Rabbids is, so I haven't played them and I'm not planning on to either. I know Mario & Luigi is essentially dead at this point because of Alpha Dream being out of business, but Mario RPG's look like they can survive for a long time with SMRPG and Paper Mario if they keep things up.
So you think OK was... OK?
I feel like you’re overthinking this. They wanted to do a remake, they likely figured doing a remake of the more popular game was better (and the one that isn’t on NSO) and they just did it. Just because the series has taken a different direction doesn’t mean the devs have to pretend the older games don’t exist; in their eyes the new games are just as good as the old ones (or maybe better) it’s not as if higher ups are afraid to bring up the old games exist or something. They have just moved on from that style of gameplay so they have no reason to really bring them up. They’re still licensed and fully recognized Mario games, they’re not Hotel Mario or something.
I’m not saying this remake doesn’t mean anything; I do think it does show a shift in their mindset somewhat that they chose to remake the game emblematic of the classic PM fans want, on the same system as the “ultimate” PM that the new devs wanted to create. But I don’t think there’s been any changes in higher-up management here when it comes to PM. This isn’t an IP protection team finally allowing new experimentation with the IP, it’s that team allowing the reuse of concepts that technically at this point are already established parts of the Mario/PM universe
Forgive me if I sound like I'm bashing on Tanabe, but let's be real, the man's dense.
Even if Miyamoto never suggested him to make changes to Sticker Star, Tanabe is the kind of guy who would take anything that's successful and turn it all upside down just for his claims of innovation, even if it means running that 'new idea' for 3-4 games in a row (Paper Mario and Mario vs DK), or once (Chibi-Robo Zip-Lash)
And even for the better games that he was involved in (Luigi's Mansion and Retro's DKC), the real problem with the guy is that he's so stuck up there with his ideas is that he refuses to take in actual criticisms that aren't Miyamoto, even when the final product is poorly received. The only reason why Luigi's Mansion 3 had actual portrait ghost styled bosses again is because Tanabe had less direct control over the game as stated by a Next Level Games rep, letting the creative team to do their thing.
Now for the TTYD remake, I can guess why it's happening based off of two assumptions:
1) The original director & producer for the classic Paper Marios are back and are involved with the remake
Or
2) If Tanabe's still in charge of this (surprise surprise), he ran out of craft themed ideas for a brand-new PM title, so he's gone back to the basics.
In any case, if this manages to outperform the original, if not Origami King, then we can hope that Nintendo realizes what people really wanted and applies that to any new titles going forward, provided that Tanabe cleans the wax out of his ears and gets the memo if he's still sticking around.
NLG didnt say anything about Tanabe, they cant even do that. Blaming tanabe for everything hes involved when hes just a nintendo producer for a third party developed game is insane, even more when none of you care about other nintendo producers in other franchises outside of these.
@@ausgod538 Tanabe was co into full producer for the series, and is the one making the new gimmicks per entry (he made the flip gimmick for SPM). He's the one that went on public record to admitting to be directly inspired by the Japanese exclusive spinoff Zelda game, Tingle's Rupeeland, questioning in the rpg series needed rpg elements when later producing SS and onward.
I feel like I can be less harsh on the new titles now since I have hoped to return to the format that made me love it. Appreciate them for what they are instead of aren't.
Honestly, I actually kinda agree. I was just discussing the modern games from the perspective of the fanbase but I can definitely appreciate the modern games a bit more now.
given that the Wii U era was the worst financial era for Nintendo i think it makes more sense that the "restrictions" came from tight budgets, it would explain why the IP team was suddenly very strict only to then go back to being very loose
the Mario & Luigi remakes where the last things Alphadream made before going bankrupt so it would make more sense to use established designs instead of the "creative" designs
you all are nicer to origami king then i am. i hated that game with a burning resentment.
But it's a remake.
Don't expect new games to be like TYD
You are overthinking it imo
The remake was possible because 1: There's not any Mario RPGs on the switch, and 2: The "Mario mandates" aren't real and intellegent systems limitations were self imposed.
The Mario Mandate was absolutely real. Nintendo seems to just be lifting it after seeing how destructive it's been.
Even then, as a remake, this doesn't even confirm the Mario Mandates are actually gone. We'll have to wait for a new game to see if new original characters could be created.
"Looks at all the Mario spin offs between 2012-2017, including Paper Jam and the Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga remake"
The mandates were absolutely real. Dream Team is the only game that somehow managed to have something original and creative done from that era.
why settle on wanting a remake when you could want something new and better? Nintendo really got fans black-pilled on their ability to make a good sequel I guess. this is cool, but it's still the same story and characters. I just can't settle on remaking a good game after 2 decades of mediocre new releases.
And I don't want to come off rude here, but I was expecting to hear a bunch of different theories, and I started skimming through honestly cuz like I got 7 minutes and then I stopped watching cuz it was mostly just you rambling. And that's fine if you want to talk to some ideas unscripted and all that, but I feel like it was misleading and kind of wasting my time.
To save everyone 25 minutes, Nintendo owned the rights. End of story. Jeez, it's not that deep and whatever you think happened clearly had no impact.
That has nothing to do with what I was discussing... Just because Nintendo owns the rights to it doesn't mean that it's likely that they'll remake it. There are still so many series that Nintendo owns the rights to that they decide not to touch at all, like Star Fox or Wario Land for example.
@@Reecee That really is an entirely separate point.