Hi Dave, I think that, when Philpott advocates spinning the ball back towards the body, he means the conventional leg spin action. If you think abouit it, when delivering a leg-spinner from the side-on bowling position, you are effectively spinning the ball back towards yourself. In the same vein, when bowling the topspinner, you're doing the "across the body" drill.
@shutuprafa I've not used it for a long time, but I'm with you on the two fingered approach and the other attribute you need is the wrist mobility. When learning all these I noticed that if you bowl using the flipper click technique ( I'm beginning to realise has much in common with the finger spinners technique) and bowl it with the back of the hand facing the batsman and the wrist cocked backwards it produces a Leg Break - but you'd need Muralis arm and shoulder dexterity I reckon.
@Hassananime I suppose it would depend on which of them you practiced the most and which you were best at. Last summer I found the off-spiining version the best with the seam tilted forward worked well with me, it had a tendency to drify and I was able to bowl it a lot faster that most of my other deliveries. Another good one is the top spinning one. Lowest and fastest for me - the off-spinner.
@someblokecalleddave1 Thank you for the reply! Yes, I hope we see something like that again and it's not just a matter of pitches being too benign nowadays to do really well bowling like that. There's a footage of the New Zealander Simon Doull bowling Nasser Hussain on youtube which is maybe the kind of ball that Barnes was bowling.
@johnnycheck99 - Yeah, you're right it is and I gave myself medial epicondylitis getting my wrist round to be able to flick it in this manner. If you're under 18 or still growing Benaud advises that you don't try any varitaions of the flipper but if you carry a ball around and just flick it like this for a couple of weeks it comes together and you'll be able to convert the action to your bowling.
Are you talking in terms of one of the other videos (The recent clips shot indoors)? If so, have you read his book 'The art of wrist spin bowling'? In there he goes through all the deliveries using Grimmetts 'Round the loop' theory as explained in the 1930's book 'Taking Wickets'. There are images and explicit explanations using the wrist in 4 distinctive positions, the last one being backwards which produces the slider and with slight variation the big leg break.
@leftie600 Being a Wrist Spinner, my knowledge of Finger spinning is limited, but finger spinners on the big cricket forum have mentioned this before. Yeah, thinking about it you're right as they say the action is the 'Turning the door knob' analogy and this has distinct similarities. There's probably a lot more thumb action with this approach though?
@WhatElseExceptNature I get very little opportunity, I've kind of done quite well with some not outs seeing batsmen home to high scores and stuff like that. I suppose my best shot is a little glance of the face of the bat, angled down through slips to 3rd man. I have another 1 off shot when there's no-one at Leg slip position a one handed flail at the ball that goes for a couple of runs off slow bowlers. Hopefully as my sons get older I'll get more opportunity to practice?
Yeah one of the forum users is a bloke who lives in NSW, he's the bloke that brought our attentions to Grimmett and his genius. He does a lot of research and accesses newspaper cuttings via a library local to him. He's read a lot on the subject and contacted both Ashley Mallet (who wrote a biography on Grimmett) and Terry Jenner asking them their views on Grimmetts variations and his contribution to the art. The reality seems that neither Mallet or Jenner have read Grimmetts books continued....
@someblokecalleddave1 Contd. My point was that my reading of Philpott's suggestion of spinning the ball in towards the body or across the body is for the reasons you discussed in your last two videos. It seemed to me that some people on the forum were confusing this with his writings on flipper variants. For what little it's worth, my reading of his flipper discussion was that Grimmet used the flipper to generate backspin, but with a round arm action and the seam horizontal...
Not at the minute, I tend to only record my leg break bowling as it's the main delivery that I use and the one that needs to be constantly worked with. The back-spinning conventional flipper which is the one that swings only seems to (Like with seamers) in certain conditions. But yeah for sure if I've got the camera this summer and it's working I'll record it. I'll keep it in mind that you've requested this and I'll record the top - spinner and off spinner as well.
I'll have to look up 'The bowlers art' that's not one I've come across or heard of before. Is there much on the internet about the Warwick Armstrong grip and how far back does that date?
@someblokecalleddave1 Thanks for the reply. Another thing: can a left arm slow bowler bowl this delivery? (Stock: Off spin, but can also do leggies, orthodox bowling but no offies at the moment). I am 16 by the way. Most comfortable at batting in the middle order. Part time batting, specialist spinner. Weakness in batting: Yorkers, swinging fast balls. Just thought I should put some info about me :)! You seem like a talented cricketer.
Completely mental that I’ve stumbled across this video randomly while browsing leg break videos because this is exactly how I bowl as an off spinner. It’s very unorthodox but it’s just something I developed as a junior and never changed. I have a very Mushtaq-esque three-finger grip with the addition of my thumb resting against my index finger and I use it to flick the ball out like a flipper for all of my deliveries.
Do you click it between your fingers like Warne demonstrates and I demonstrate here and in my other vids? I can't remember where I read it, but I'm fairly certain that someone like Ashley Mallet or Peter Phillpot have said this it's impossible. I bowl flippers almost exclusively these days a cross seamed back-spinner, an upright back-spinner and the out the front of the hand off-spinner. I only ever bowled this for a period when I had a hand injury and this was my go to delivery over that period. It is difficult, if I try it now - there's no chance, it would probably take months to practice and get my wrist and arm in a position to bowl it. Do you have it as a variation or is it your stick ball?
@@someblokecalleddave1 It’s my stock ball! I click my fingers like you show in this video but with a different grip to you and the seam facing to the right for my stock off break. I bowl like in this video for my top spinning variation and released it with the back of my hand facing the batsman for a doosra esque ball.
@@someblokecalleddave1 I’ve never bowled a normal off break using a turning the knob technique. My hands are tiny and traditional grip was always really uncomfortable for me and I could never get it to turn at all.
@@davidthomas9960 So you're a pure flipper bowler - with a top-spinning flipper? That's really unique. Can you turn your wrist so that you get it coming out of the front of the hand with some off-spin as well?
@77Fortran I've read a couple of books that mention Barnes. Amol Rajans book 'The Twirlymen' highlights the points that you've made and as you've said there's not been a modern equivalent, I suppose the closest thing we've got at the minute is Afridi. I've never seen anyone who I'd describe as fast in that way or come across anyone who's considered trying it. I think I'd try it if I was 20-30 years younger!
@iammdeepak1 It may well be similar to an Offies Top-spinner, but they'll use their fingers rather than the thumb and fingers? It;s the use of the Thumb in conjunction with the with the finger that make it a Flipper variation. With regards batsmen knowing the difference - yeah they may see that your hand has changed position, but to be honest most professional commentators with the use of cameras and replays can't tell a flipper so most batsmen would be the same.
Yeah I'm personally undecided at the moment and will be practicing with both over the off-season period and will try them out in the nets in Jan 2010 against batsmen. You could in theory gain some advantage in that a normal Top-Spinner is potentially easily picked out of the hand, whereas this because it is so obscure wouldn't be so readily picked. Don Bradman rated this delivery off of Grimmett noting that it was one of Grimmetts more potent deliveries. It's a variation so use sparingly.
@WhatElseExceptNature Yeah I'm everywhere, I write a lot about this stuff, I've got two big blogs one of which I'm working on a massive update on. Ideally I'd like to update these videos but I'm waiting on two slo mo cameras so I can film stuff from two angles, but that's likely to be a project for next year now.
@shutuprafa Yeah my early attempts were 'Frog in blender-esque', But this winter I changed the way I bowl it, bowling primarily a Googly action (Shoulder, twisted arm and wrist) and flicked it using the Flipper click and it worked perfectly. I think you have to have a good solid Googly action in order to execute this ball with any verve and finesse, otherwise it's a bit of mess as I've described in the video!!
Grimmett, I seems to recall from one of his books, recommended using a far smaller - lighter ball. I think I started with tennis balls, but you could try table tennis balls? What you will notice though is that because this is a wholly unnatural action it's going to potentially cause mild discomfort in your hands. Benuad said kids shouldn't do it at all and that they should wait till they're 18 or older. But if you practice it daily and work up from a small ball I reckon you'll be there in a couple of weeks. I always flick a ball, orange or an apple when out of season to keep the muscle memory going and the strength in the fingers. Hope that helps.
@@kevinstoneham1245 I'd apply it to the basic back-spinner first. This variation with top/over-spin is extremely difficult to bowl and requires ridiculous wrist and arm dexterity.
I was wondering do you have some insights into the technique of the English bowler S.F.Barnes? He seems as far as I can tell to be someone who bowled at a medium pace but could still spin the ball enough to get a lot of drift and effective turn off the pitch. By his stupendous success with this he seems like a real anomaly and I wonder if he had some unusual physiological thing in his favour!
@Hassananime Practice is the key, if you try them all one by one, spending several hours/sessions on each, you'll get a feeling for one or two of them coming together and the others will seem impossible. I found the key to being able to bowl all of them was practicing the hand action for the top spinner which requires you holding the ball in front of you with the wrist angled and clicking the ball out of the hand with over-spin, as this strengthens the wrist.
Yeah a lot of people see this description as being really contentious and dismiss it as being nonsense, but there's a group of us on the forum that have tried it and had loads of success including some people that initially are dismissive. I've got to admit if I use that theory I'm able to bowl sliders, but as yet haven't mastered the slight variation between the backspinning approach and the side spinning approach the get the big leg break.
Part (2). the interest that was generated on the net just from the thread on big cricket and appeared to put up their prices accordingly. Even now if you type in Grimmett you get links generated through our discussions appear in the 1st 10 google options a whole year later! Just goes to show how obscure this subject is!
@someblokecalleddave1 But yea, batting is fun when you do it with a clear opinion. Its fun slogging and doing graceful shots and strokes. But its only fun below the middle order or below half of it - the pressure really gets onto you if you are the top 5 batsmen, and making a mistake is easy. But anyways, you should try batting! What's your favourite shot? Mines the sweep shot or the reverse sweep (reverse sweep is basically mirrored off the sweep shot, so same thing really).
No I haven't, I've read Amol Rajan's book "Twirlymen' which covers a lot of Barnes as I recall. Generally those old books are worth a read, they're just interesting and you can always sell them on again.
@someblokecalleddave1 contd... the horizsonatal seam therefore looking like the equator on a globe, whereas he seemed to me to say that the Benaud method, with the high arm action had the seam more upright. Given that people such as yourself who have rerad Grimmett's own books where he refers to the flipper as a topspun delivery rather than being underspun, it would indeed seem as though Philpott is vague on who used the flipper for what purpose.
I don't know if you've read the comments on the other videos, but I've pruned my bowling as Grimmett would have said down to 2 Flipper variations. When I made this video I'd worked on all of these variations over a period of about 3 years. As I figured one out, I then moved onto the next. This one was one of the last. You also may have read either here on UA-cam, or my blogs or websites that with hind-sight and lacking access to a high speed camera, I can't be sure how precise my release was with some of these more difficult variations... this one and the off-spinning one. At the time without the use of HS video, I was pretty sure that I was getting over-spin on the ball and it was coming off the wicket like a top-spinner, In practice as I recall (It was 8 or 9 years ago now) people facing it or catching it - (another wrist-spinner) when practicing, confirmed it had over-spin. These days, I only ever bowl the off-spinning variation and occasionally the basic back-spinner, therefore I only ever practice the off-spinner, so there's no way that without several weeks, possibly a season of continual practice I'd be able to bowl this variant. Additionally without the use of a HS video camera, any footage I could shoot would be inconclusive. What I do recall is this isn't going to come together over-night, I started clicking it from hand to hand, just to get the finger and wrist dexterity, with one of the deliveries I also had to stop bowling for a month or so whilst my thumb recovered from over and unusual use and that was probably this one. I then developed medial epicondylitis and again had to ease up and slowly develop the flexibility and muscles to execute the release. Initially I bowled it over about 8 yards and then over the weeks gradually got it up to 22 yards. What I would say about any Flipper, is... I wouldn't worry about whether you're able to execute the delivery 'Book perfect', just the fact that you're able to bowl the delivery as a variation and it gives you different attributes - I'd say these days, that you're probably good to go. My Offie Flipper is by no means perfect, but some days it'll come back in, most days it keeps low and just goes on straight and I'm fine with that.
sounds similar to one i used to bowl with my right arm. the real difficulty was the release point. cant remember (this is 30yrs ago) whether it was just in front or behind the body, but it had to be exact and bowled front on rather classic side position. it used to feel like i was pulling up on the ball, and was very under spun. when it pitched it stopped dead, kept low and turned from off to leg and was absolutely lethal. unfortunately i lost it one winter when trying to teach my left hand it and whatever i tried thereafter turned into a very side spun leg break. never got close to it with the left hand which is a shame.
Yeah all of these obscure flipper variation are bloody hard to master. So much time has to be put into developing and practicing them and that has to be to the detriment of your standard deliveries. I put some time into this one over one season with a lot of work pre-season and used it in practice. Similar to you I can't remember much about it now and I'm not sure if I ever used it in a match and we're only talking 13 years ago now. It worked well in the nets and people used to comment on how it rushed on and bounced. From Grimmetts books this is the one that he felt had the most potential and was working with over a period of 12 years! Similarly, I can't remember whether he recounts using it in any games, I think if he does so, it's likely to have been in discussion with Ashley Mallet in his book 'Clarrie Grimmett. The only ones I use now are the off-spinning out of the front of the hand one and the conventional back-spinner which I change up by bowling with a mixed or crossed seam - apparently it does weird things in the air like baseball pitchers knuckle ball with the mixed seam.
@@someblokecalleddave1 nice reply. you're some aficionado you are like. would have been fun to have shared a net session with someone like you. i found in club cricket all you really needed was the leggy, googly and top spinner and 90% of the batsmen had no clue which way it was going. i used to spin the ball square either way, but wasted sometime teaching myself the chinaman & variations. but i'm glad i did. even though it was my brain teaching my brain, the left hand was different; faster and slightly less spun, but when i wanted i could still rip a huge off break. i only dream i'm bowling these days, and when i do it's either a huge chinaman or right arm leg break. those images are burned into my memory and are very beautiful.
@@OrbvsTomarvm That's some feat being an ambidextrous wrist-spinner, in my wildest dreams I don't think I could ever do that. I think I've been so enthralled with the idea that there's potentially so many variations I've had to give all of them a go over the years. Quite early on in my wrist-spin journey I worked hard on the Googly and had a big turning Googly like you, but it was to the detriment of my Leg Break and I ended up losing it completely and I think this is where these Flippers were looked at as variations to the Googly as I ended up being a 'Googly bowler'. After 2-3 years of not being able to bowl a leg-break I spent the following 2 seasons re-learning the Leggie vowing never to bowl a Googly ever again and I've pretty much stuck to that, but you're right just two variations along with your Leggie pretty much does for most batters. I've been in the nets the last few weeks and picked up the wicket of our 1st opener where he played for a leggie and the ball was the off-breaking flipper - only went a little bit was enough. I'm hoping to go into the season with the leggie, top-spinner and the off-breaking Flipper. With your leg-breaks what line did you bowl and what field did you set?
@@someblokecalleddave1 hello, i cant remember my fields. if i had to guess it might go something like: slip, gulley, backward of square, third man, short leg, leg slip, someone square on the leg boundary, a silly mid off, someone for a straight hit. that's probably all over the shop, but it's just off the top of my head. i probably haven't even recalled some of those positions properly as well 😑 i always liked to start off with a big googly to confuse the batsman with the wrist spin action - and to make them think i was just a googly bowler (like you described) and considering it was always limited overs i'd bowl a whole heap of variations. my best set up ever iirc was bowling a big leggy on middle (to a rh batter) that went well past off stump. next delivery big leggy just outside off going further away (the batsman let it go) then pitching the googly in exactly the same spot next ball that the batter shouldered arms to and hit middle stump. one of those times everything was as exactly as planned and worked to perfection first 3 balls of the over.
@@OrbvsTomarvm I've had a good winter in the nets this year, but the first two games of the season haven't gone that well, just can't get any action on the ball with the Leg-Break and top-spinner. Thankfully I've been able to convince the batters that I'm a leggie despite the lack of turn off the wicket and then as soon as I see them stepping back opening up their shoulders to put me into the next county - I've fired in the Flipper. So few people bowl they don't expect it. First game - LBW and a bowled, which I guess were planned. This Saturday, the opposition were really weak. Got a bloke who was already flummoxed by the use of the leggie and the flipper, but he defended what he thought was another flipper, but was a top-spinner which bounced and hit further up the bat and dollied straight back to me for an easy catch. Can't remember the other wicket, I think he rocked back and it was a straight low one, the third was a kid and was caught in covers. I'm going for a pretty radical field this year after seeing some really good players in the nets fall for the trick of bowling wide of leg, tempting them to hit over deep set field and then firing in the flipper. I've been surprised how effective it is. Do us a favour type 'Bowlers Union' in google and see if it brings up my blog with the pitch maps as the first option for us please? Ta.
Kumble uses this delivery in utmost perfection, I have seen it with my own eyes. Anyways, just came back from practice. I tried this delivery and got smashed for a six and a four.. :L. Its one of those deliveries which is almost impossible to do with a bowling action legal in the ICC rulebook... tips?
@Hassananime I'll give it a go. I saw a vid on youtube where a bloke had filmed the deliveries from behind and that looked like a good way of filming them. If I remember this coming weekend and the weathers okay, I'll try it out and see if it's any good.
@WhatElseExceptNature There's a bloke on a forum I write on and when we were looking into this ball we found the Ashley Mallett reference to Jenner sayng it was impossible over 22 yards. The bloke got in touch with Jenner and Jenner back in 2009 was still of the opinion that it was impossible to bowl. I found initially it was very diificult and pulled all the muscles in my wrist and caused medial epicondylitis (Tennis elbow). I went back to it months later started off (Part 1) continued....
Part 2; Just clicking a tennis ball with the wrist in a very contorted position, until I built up the flexibility. Then still not bowling I introduce a kids size cricket ball doing the same thing and on the 3rd week a full size ball. I then found with a just a few balls I was able to bowl it over 22 yards. It's a ball you have to bowl frequently I think other-wise you lose the wrist dexterity.
someblokecalleddave1 Peter Philpott from NSW mentioned a ball similar to this in his book "Cricket Fundamentals" but instead of flipping it was bowled with a leg break grip, which is a natural progression of rotating the wrist past the conventional leg break. He called it a backspinner and with practice its quite a good ball as it dips and then "sits up" catching the batsman by surprise. Truly there is no new ball in cricket. Grimmet, SF Barnes, Jenner, Mallet, Benaud, O'Reilly, Iverson - we're just rediscovering what they already knew.
Sorry this reply is a year late, sometimes I seem to be notified when people message me and other times I don't and yours is one that got past me. Yeah you're right about the variations and the fact that almost everything has been done before. The thing that interests me is the bluff that goes on especially with the ball that people refer to as the slider especially with regards to Warne. More and more it's becoming evident that as far as Warne himself is concerned there was no such thing, I've always thought it was total BS, and the more Warne talks about it in recent times it never existed. He bowled 'Big' Leg breaks with an angled seam which had the characteristics where if the seam was angled so much the seam wouldn't grip and the ball would skid on. In recent discussions with people on SKY here in the UK he's talked about and laughed at the idea that he bowled a slider saying that it was just a big Leg Break as described above and was just natural variation of that delivery. There is no such thing as a Slider, it's total nonsense and you'll never find it written about in any book because it's a total misnomer. Although - there's some footage of Jateen Patel on here from 2014 bowling an amazing spell where he bowls orthodox finger spin and looks as though unlike Warne who put his skiddy leg breaks down to (a) Cold hands or (b) Natural variation, Patel appears in the video footage to very intentionally angling the ball so that it skids on. Again the commentators who are not bowlers and have never had the pedigree to be able to name a delivery, call it a slider, but in essence it's his usual Off-Break, but with an angled seam. I'm of the opinion that someone with some pedigree needs to write a Peter Philpott or Clarrie Grimmett style book on the art of bowling and describe a 'Slider'. I doubt if anyone will because it doesn't exist, it's just a normal delivery that skids on for what-ever reason.
I'd not considered that possibility, Dave - I've always been suspicious of the idea that you can push the ball out of the front of the hand with minimal spin yet disguise it as the stock ball - I presume that's what you mean by the slider? If you mean the "round the loop" backspun ball, Philpott describes it in detail and even comments that it doesn't work on soft wickets as it always has plenty of sidespin in addition to the backspin.
A book that's essential in the library is "The Bowlers Art" by Brian Wilkins where he describes spinning the ball with a seam angled off the vertical and at an angle from the batsman as practised by S.F. Barnes. Taking a natural progression of the angling of the wrist so the ball spins more in the horizontal plane (I coach players to think of it spinning like a UFO), which will gain more "drift" from the Magnus affect and not turn (as it lands on the smooth surface of the ball) thus appearing to "skid" or "slide" to the untrained [or commentators' eye ;-)]
Chris, the day someone with some pedigree writes that down in a book with a clear description of the delivery and says "That is 'The Slider' I'll be right behind them, till then I'm not having it, it's the work of amateurs, pundits and commentators.
@leftie600 Yeah I've just ordered Twirlymen just 1/2 hour ago, a bloke on bigcricket was also on about both these books and I didn't make the connection, he's obviously reading the thread here and he's been quicker than me to pick up on your recommendations! I had a look for the Wilkins book, but they're most over your side of the world, I'll have to bide my time to pick up one on the cheap, although this happened with the Grimmett books and the retailers seemed to notice - continued..........
@someblokecalleddave1 You should also try batting! Its great fun once you get into the real thing. From when I was 12 to just a month back, I was completely biased towards bowling, and regarded batting as "easy - at least easier than bowling, with way too much luck" - in other wors, inferior. I still believe it is easier than bowling, at least spin bowling, and you can get really lucky while there is no such thing as 'luck' when bowling - even if there is, only a little luck.
@someblokecalleddave1 Sorry Dave, I wrote that as a reply to one of your blog posts, but I haven't got the right account. It is out of context in this video - my apologies. You know far more about this trhan I ever will, and, as a wheelchair user, I can't bowl properly in the sense that I can't run up, jup into a delivery stride etc. Having recently read Philpott's book, I'm reading the forum you mentioned and your blog to see how those that actually put this theory into practice see it.
@WhatElseExceptNature No far from it! I came to cricket far too late in life, brain washed by the idea that England is great footballing nation (I was 6 when we won the world cup). I read a lot about it and have experimented with a lot of these deliveries and used many in match situations. Gone through the googly syndrome and still trying to recover from that properly. I bat at No11 and get quite a few not outs. But I probably experiment and bowl a lot of wrist spin - good and bad!
w0033944 - I have to concede I'm no expert, I bowl a bit, but I'm sure you'll probably agree this very subjective and if you read the book open to interpretation. There's a lot of discussion on the Big Cricket forum (Wrist spin thread) between me and several others on this these deliveries, by all means log on and discuss this in far more detail over there, as there's not enough room to do so here. Dave
@someblokecalleddave1 Haha you are an interesting guy! And oh I was looking up tips for flight and dip on google and I read an article and I saw a comment by you on it. Site is htt ://ww.pitchvision. com/spin-bowling-flight-and-guile. And its recent as well! What a coincident. I also am messaging you for some things.
No, I'm in England mate. I've heard about the caste situation over there, but thought it was something that was in decline these days? Is there no way you can play for a lower level team and just play well and get noticed and selected on merit?
+someblokecalleddave1 I can only play Play T 20 unoofical like I only pay entrance fee to play n even after takin 5 wickets n scoring ,50 ,noone notices
@shutuprafa You're getting too technical for me now Shutuprafa! I've very little knowledge of many of the bowlers you mention, but it's interesting in what you're saying about the Pakistani bowlers & drift. Drift is something I'm interested in at the moment, but there's very little footage of Qadir and Mustaq to have a look at and see what you mean, I'll go and have a look at them now. I always thought that Warne was well known for his ability to get the ball to drift?
Hi Dave, I think that, when Philpott advocates spinning the ball back towards the body, he means the conventional leg spin action. If you think abouit it, when delivering a leg-spinner from the side-on bowling position, you are effectively spinning the ball back towards yourself. In the same vein, when bowling the topspinner, you're doing the "across the body" drill.
@shutuprafa I've not used it for a long time, but I'm with you on the two fingered approach and the other attribute you need is the wrist mobility. When learning all these I noticed that if you bowl using the flipper click technique ( I'm beginning to realise has much in common with the finger spinners technique) and bowl it with the back of the hand facing the batsman and the wrist cocked backwards it produces a Leg Break - but you'd need Muralis arm and shoulder dexterity I reckon.
@Hassananime I suppose it would depend on which of them you practiced the most and which you were best at. Last summer I found the off-spiining version the best with the seam tilted forward worked well with me, it had a tendency to drify and I was able to bowl it a lot faster that most of my other deliveries. Another good one is the top spinning one. Lowest and fastest for me - the off-spinner.
@someblokecalleddave1 Thank you for the reply! Yes, I hope we see something like that again and it's not just a matter of pitches being too benign nowadays to do really well bowling like that. There's a footage of the New Zealander Simon Doull bowling Nasser Hussain on youtube which is maybe the kind of ball that Barnes was bowling.
@johnnycheck99 - Yeah, you're right it is and I gave myself medial epicondylitis getting my wrist round to be able to flick it in this manner. If you're under 18 or still growing Benaud advises that you don't try any varitaions of the flipper
but if you carry a ball around and just flick it like this for a couple of weeks it comes together and you'll be able to convert the action to your bowling.
Are you talking in terms of one of the other videos (The recent clips shot indoors)? If so, have you read his book 'The art of wrist spin bowling'? In there he goes through all the deliveries using Grimmetts 'Round the loop' theory as explained in the 1930's book 'Taking Wickets'. There are images and explicit explanations using the wrist in 4 distinctive positions, the last one being backwards which produces the slider and with slight variation the big leg break.
@leftie600 Being a Wrist Spinner, my knowledge of Finger spinning is limited, but finger spinners on the big cricket forum have mentioned this before. Yeah, thinking about it you're right as they say the action is the 'Turning the door knob' analogy and this has distinct similarities. There's probably a lot more thumb action with this approach though?
@WhatElseExceptNature I get very little opportunity, I've kind of done quite well with some not outs seeing batsmen home to high scores and stuff like that. I suppose my best shot is a little glance of the face of the bat, angled down through slips to 3rd man. I have another 1 off shot when there's no-one at Leg slip position a one handed flail at the ball that goes for a couple of runs off slow bowlers. Hopefully as my sons get older I'll get more opportunity to practice?
@leftie600 Have you read the Grimmett books?
Yeah one of the forum users is a bloke who lives in NSW, he's the bloke that brought our attentions to Grimmett and his genius. He does a lot of research and accesses newspaper cuttings via a library local to him. He's read a lot on the subject and contacted both Ashley Mallet (who wrote a biography on Grimmett) and Terry Jenner asking them their views on Grimmetts variations and his contribution to the art. The reality seems that neither Mallet or Jenner have read Grimmetts books continued....
@someblokecalleddave1 Contd. My point was that my reading of Philpott's suggestion of spinning the ball in towards the body or across the body is for the reasons you discussed in your last two videos. It seemed to me that some people on the forum were confusing this with his writings on flipper variants. For what little it's worth, my reading of his flipper discussion was that Grimmet used the flipper to generate backspin, but with a round arm action and the seam horizontal...
Not at the minute, I tend to only record my leg break bowling as it's the main delivery that I use and the one that needs to be constantly worked with. The back-spinning conventional flipper which is the one that swings only seems to (Like with seamers) in certain conditions. But yeah for sure if I've got the camera this summer and it's working I'll record it. I'll keep it in mind that you've requested this and I'll record the top - spinner and off spinner as well.
I'll have to look up 'The bowlers art' that's not one I've come across or heard of before. Is there much on the internet about the Warwick Armstrong grip and how far back does that date?
@leftie600 Yeah I'll have a look, how old is it, can you still buy it in the shops or is it out of print?
@someblokecalleddave1 Thanks for the reply. Another thing: can a left arm slow bowler bowl this delivery? (Stock: Off spin, but can also do leggies, orthodox bowling but no offies at the moment). I am 16 by the way. Most comfortable at batting in the middle order. Part time batting, specialist spinner. Weakness in batting: Yorkers, swinging fast balls. Just thought I should put some info about me :)! You seem like a talented cricketer.
Completely mental that I’ve stumbled across this video randomly while browsing leg break videos because this is exactly how I bowl as an off spinner. It’s very unorthodox but it’s just something I developed as a junior and never changed. I have a very Mushtaq-esque three-finger grip with the addition of my thumb resting against my index finger and I use it to flick the ball out like a flipper for all of my deliveries.
Do you click it between your fingers like Warne demonstrates and I demonstrate here and in my other vids? I can't remember where I read it, but I'm fairly certain that someone like Ashley Mallet or Peter Phillpot have said this it's impossible. I bowl flippers almost exclusively these days a cross seamed back-spinner, an upright back-spinner and the out the front of the hand off-spinner. I only ever bowled this for a period when I had a hand injury and this was my go to delivery over that period. It is difficult, if I try it now - there's no chance, it would probably take months to practice and get my wrist and arm in a position to bowl it. Do you have it as a variation or is it your stick ball?
@@someblokecalleddave1 It’s my stock ball! I click my fingers like you show in this video but with a different grip to you and the seam facing to the right for my stock off break. I bowl like in this video for my top spinning variation and released it with the back of my hand facing the batsman for a doosra esque ball.
@@davidthomas9960 So your variation is your bog standard off-break using the 'Turning the knob technique'?
@@someblokecalleddave1 I’ve never bowled a normal off break using a turning the knob technique. My hands are tiny and traditional grip was always really uncomfortable for me and I could never get it to turn at all.
@@davidthomas9960 So you're a pure flipper bowler - with a top-spinning flipper? That's really unique. Can you turn your wrist so that you get it coming out of the front of the hand with some off-spin as well?
@77Fortran I've read a couple of books that mention Barnes. Amol Rajans book 'The Twirlymen' highlights the points that you've made and as you've said there's not been a modern equivalent, I suppose the closest thing we've got at the minute is Afridi. I've never seen anyone who I'd describe as fast in that way or come across anyone who's considered trying it. I think I'd try it if I was 20-30 years younger!
@iammdeepak1 It may well be similar to an Offies Top-spinner, but they'll use their fingers rather than the thumb and fingers? It;s the use of the Thumb in conjunction with the with the finger that make it a Flipper variation. With regards batsmen knowing the difference - yeah they may see that your hand has changed position, but to be honest most professional commentators with the use of cameras and replays can't tell a flipper so most batsmen would be the same.
Yeah I'm personally undecided at the moment and will be practicing with both over the off-season period and will try them out in the nets in Jan 2010 against batsmen. You could in theory gain some advantage in that a normal Top-Spinner is potentially easily picked out of the hand, whereas this because it is so obscure wouldn't be so readily picked. Don Bradman rated this delivery off of Grimmett noting that it was one of Grimmetts more potent deliveries. It's a variation so use sparingly.
@WhatElseExceptNature Yeah I'm everywhere, I write a lot about this stuff, I've got two big blogs one of which I'm working on a massive update on. Ideally I'd like to update these videos but I'm waiting on two slo mo cameras so I can film stuff from two angles, but that's likely to be a project for next year now.
@shutuprafa Yeah my early attempts were 'Frog in blender-esque', But this winter I changed the way I bowl it, bowling primarily a Googly action (Shoulder, twisted arm and wrist) and flicked it using the Flipper click and it worked perfectly. I think you have to have a good solid Googly action in order to execute this ball with any verve and finesse, otherwise it's a bit of mess as I've described in the video!!
Has anyone got any tips for getting the clicking of the fingers?
Grimmett, I seems to recall from one of his books, recommended using a far smaller - lighter ball. I think I started with tennis balls, but you could try table tennis balls? What you will notice though is that because this is a wholly unnatural action it's going to potentially cause mild discomfort in your hands. Benuad said kids shouldn't do it at all and that they should wait till they're 18 or older. But if you practice it daily and work up from a small ball I reckon you'll be there in a couple of weeks. I always flick a ball, orange or an apple when out of season to keep the muscle memory going and the strength in the fingers. Hope that helps.
Okay thanks. I can do it with a tennis ball, it not a cricket ball yet.
@@kevinstoneham1245 I'd apply it to the basic back-spinner first. This variation with top/over-spin is extremely difficult to bowl and requires ridiculous wrist and arm dexterity.
I was wondering do you have some insights into the technique of the English bowler S.F.Barnes? He seems as far as I can tell to be someone who bowled at a medium pace but could still spin the ball enough to get a lot of drift and effective turn off the pitch. By his stupendous success with this he seems like a real anomaly and I wonder if he had some unusual physiological thing in his favour!
@Hassananime Practice is the key, if you try them all one by one, spending several hours/sessions on each, you'll get a feeling for one or two of them coming together and the others will seem impossible. I found the key to being able to bowl all of them was practicing the hand action for the top spinner which requires you holding the ball in front of you with the wrist angled and clicking the ball out of the hand with over-spin, as this strengthens the wrist.
Yeah a lot of people see this description as being really contentious and dismiss it as being nonsense, but there's a group of us on the forum that have tried it and had loads of success including some people that initially are dismissive. I've got to admit if I use that theory I'm able to bowl sliders, but as yet haven't mastered the slight variation between the backspinning approach and the side spinning approach the get the big leg break.
Part (2). the interest that was generated on the net just from the thread on big cricket and appeared to put up their prices accordingly. Even now if you type in Grimmett you get links generated through our discussions appear in the 1st 10 google options a whole year later! Just goes to show how obscure this subject is!
@someblokecalleddave1 But yea, batting is fun when you do it with a clear opinion. Its fun slogging and doing graceful shots and strokes. But its only fun below the middle order or below half of it - the pressure really gets onto you if you are the top 5 batsmen, and making a mistake is easy. But anyways, you should try batting! What's your favourite shot? Mines the sweep shot or the reverse sweep (reverse sweep is basically mirrored off the sweep shot, so same thing really).
im very fascinated with sf barnes. have you read his biography and is it worth the 20 quid?
No I haven't, I've read Amol Rajan's book "Twirlymen' which covers a lot of Barnes as I recall. Generally those old books are worth a read, they're just interesting and you can always sell them on again.
@someblokecalleddave1
contd... the horizsonatal seam therefore looking like the equator on a globe, whereas he seemed to me to say that the Benaud method, with the high arm action had the seam more upright. Given that people such as yourself who have rerad Grimmett's own books where he refers to the flipper as a topspun delivery rather than being underspun, it would indeed seem as though Philpott is vague on who used the flipper for what purpose.
can you do a close-up video of you bowling this delivery? Will be interesting to see how it looks like over 22 yards.
I don't know if you've read the comments on the other videos, but I've pruned my bowling as Grimmett would have said down to 2 Flipper variations. When I made this video I'd worked on all of these variations over a period of about 3 years. As I figured one out, I then moved onto the next. This one was one of the last. You also may have read either here on UA-cam, or my blogs or websites that with hind-sight and lacking access to a high speed camera, I can't be sure how precise my release was with some of these more difficult variations... this one and the off-spinning one. At the time without the use of HS video, I was pretty sure that I was getting over-spin on the ball and it was coming off the wicket like a top-spinner, In practice as I recall (It was 8 or 9 years ago now) people facing it or catching it - (another wrist-spinner) when practicing, confirmed it had over-spin. These days, I only ever bowl the off-spinning variation and occasionally the basic back-spinner, therefore I only ever practice the off-spinner, so there's no way that without several weeks, possibly a season of continual practice I'd be able to bowl this variant. Additionally without the use of a HS video camera, any footage I could shoot would be inconclusive. What I do recall is this isn't going to come together over-night, I started clicking it from hand to hand, just to get the finger and wrist dexterity, with one of the deliveries I also had to stop bowling for a month or so whilst my thumb recovered from over and unusual use and that was probably this one. I then developed medial epicondylitis and again had to ease up and slowly develop the flexibility and muscles to execute the release. Initially I bowled it over about 8 yards and then over the weeks gradually got it up to 22 yards. What I would say about any Flipper, is... I wouldn't worry about whether you're able to execute the delivery 'Book perfect', just the fact that you're able to bowl the delivery as a variation and it gives you different attributes - I'd say these days, that you're probably good to go. My Offie Flipper is by no means perfect, but some days it'll come back in, most days it keeps low and just goes on straight and I'm fine with that.
sounds similar to one i used to bowl with my right arm. the real difficulty was the release point. cant remember (this is 30yrs ago) whether it was just in front or behind the body, but it had to be exact and bowled front on rather classic side position. it used to feel like i was pulling up on the ball, and was very under spun. when it pitched it stopped dead, kept low and turned from off to leg and was absolutely lethal. unfortunately i lost it one winter when trying to teach my left hand it and whatever i tried thereafter turned into a very side spun leg break. never got close to it with the left hand which is a shame.
Yeah all of these obscure flipper variation are bloody hard to master. So much time has to be put into developing and practicing them and that has to be to the detriment of your standard deliveries. I put some time into this one over one season with a lot of work pre-season and used it in practice. Similar to you I can't remember much about it now and I'm not sure if I ever used it in a match and we're only talking 13 years ago now. It worked well in the nets and people used to comment on how it rushed on and bounced. From Grimmetts books this is the one that he felt had the most potential and was working with over a period of 12 years! Similarly, I can't remember whether he recounts using it in any games, I think if he does so, it's likely to have been in discussion with Ashley Mallet in his book 'Clarrie Grimmett. The only ones I use now are the off-spinning out of the front of the hand one and the conventional back-spinner which I change up by bowling with a mixed or crossed seam - apparently it does weird things in the air like baseball pitchers knuckle ball with the mixed seam.
@@someblokecalleddave1 nice reply. you're some aficionado you are like. would have been fun to have shared a net session with someone like you. i found in club cricket all you really needed was the leggy, googly and top spinner and 90% of the batsmen had no clue which way it was going. i used to spin the ball square either way, but wasted sometime teaching myself the chinaman & variations. but i'm glad i did. even though it was my brain teaching my brain, the left hand was different; faster and slightly less spun, but when i wanted i could still rip a huge off break. i only dream i'm bowling these days, and when i do it's either a huge chinaman or right arm leg break. those images are burned into my memory and are very beautiful.
@@OrbvsTomarvm That's some feat being an ambidextrous wrist-spinner, in my wildest dreams I don't think I could ever do that. I think I've been so enthralled with the idea that there's potentially so many variations I've had to give all of them a go over the years. Quite early on in my wrist-spin journey I worked hard on the Googly and had a big turning Googly like you, but it was to the detriment of my Leg Break and I ended up losing it completely and I think this is where these Flippers were looked at as variations to the Googly as I ended up being a 'Googly bowler'. After 2-3 years of not being able to bowl a leg-break I spent the following 2 seasons re-learning the Leggie vowing never to bowl a Googly ever again and I've pretty much stuck to that, but you're right just two variations along with your Leggie pretty much does for most batters. I've been in the nets the last few weeks and picked up the wicket of our 1st opener where he played for a leggie and the ball was the off-breaking flipper - only went a little bit was enough. I'm hoping to go into the season with the leggie, top-spinner and the off-breaking Flipper. With your leg-breaks what line did you bowl and what field did you set?
@@someblokecalleddave1 hello, i cant remember my fields. if i had to guess it might go something like: slip, gulley, backward of square, third man, short leg, leg slip, someone square on the leg boundary, a silly mid off, someone for a straight hit. that's probably all over the shop, but it's just off the top of my head. i probably haven't even recalled some of those positions properly as well 😑 i always liked to start off with a big googly to confuse the batsman with the wrist spin action - and to make them think i was just a googly bowler (like you described) and considering it was always limited overs i'd bowl a whole heap of variations. my best set up ever iirc was bowling a big leggy on middle (to a rh batter) that went well past off stump. next delivery big leggy just outside off going further away (the batsman let it go) then pitching the googly in exactly the same spot next ball that the batter shouldered arms to and hit middle stump. one of those times everything was as exactly as planned and worked to perfection first 3 balls of the over.
@@OrbvsTomarvm I've had a good winter in the nets this year, but the first two games of the season haven't gone that well, just can't get any action on the ball with the Leg-Break and top-spinner. Thankfully I've been able to convince the batters that I'm a leggie despite the lack of turn off the wicket and then as soon as I see them stepping back opening up their shoulders to put me into the next county - I've fired in the Flipper. So few people bowl they don't expect it. First game - LBW and a bowled, which I guess were planned. This Saturday, the opposition were really weak. Got a bloke who was already flummoxed by the use of the leggie and the flipper, but he defended what he thought was another flipper, but was a top-spinner which bounced and hit further up the bat and dollied straight back to me for an easy catch. Can't remember the other wicket, I think he rocked back and it was a straight low one, the third was a kid and was caught in covers. I'm going for a pretty radical field this year after seeing some really good players in the nets fall for the trick of bowling wide of leg, tempting them to hit over deep set field and then firing in the flipper. I've been surprised how effective it is. Do us a favour type 'Bowlers Union' in google and see if it brings up my blog with the pitch maps as the first option for us please? Ta.
Kumble uses this delivery in utmost perfection, I have seen it with my own eyes.
Anyways, just came back from practice. I tried this delivery and got smashed for a six and a four.. :L. Its one of those deliveries which is almost impossible to do with a bowling action legal in the ICC rulebook... tips?
@Hassananime I'll give it a go. I saw a vid on youtube where a bloke had filmed the deliveries from behind and that looked like a good way of filming them. If I remember this coming weekend and the weathers okay, I'll try it out and see if it's any good.
@WhatElseExceptNature There's a bloke on a forum I write on and when we were looking into this ball we found the Ashley Mallett reference to Jenner sayng it was impossible over 22 yards. The bloke got in touch with Jenner and Jenner back in 2009 was still of the opinion that it was impossible to bowl. I found initially it was very diificult and pulled all the muscles in my wrist and caused medial epicondylitis (Tennis elbow). I went back to it months later started off (Part 1) continued....
Part 2; Just clicking a tennis ball with the wrist in a very contorted position, until I built up the flexibility. Then still not bowling I introduce a kids size cricket ball doing the same thing and on the 3rd week a full size ball. I then found with a just a few balls I was able to bowl it over 22 yards. It's a ball you have to bowl frequently I think other-wise you lose the wrist dexterity.
Yo mate very long time today i got a wicket wid dis one i had stopped bowling dis for a long tyme
Mate how r u.........have a great tyme......
someblokecalleddave1 Peter Philpott from NSW mentioned a ball similar to this in his book "Cricket Fundamentals" but instead of flipping it was bowled with a leg break grip, which is a natural progression of rotating the wrist past the conventional leg break. He called it a backspinner and with practice its quite a good ball as it dips and then "sits up" catching the batsman by surprise. Truly there is no new ball in cricket. Grimmet, SF Barnes, Jenner, Mallet, Benaud, O'Reilly, Iverson - we're just rediscovering what they already knew.
Sorry this reply is a year late, sometimes I seem to be notified when people message me and other times I don't and yours is one that got past me. Yeah you're right about the variations and the fact that almost everything has been done before. The thing that interests me is the bluff that goes on especially with the ball that people refer to as the slider especially with regards to Warne. More and more it's becoming evident that as far as Warne himself is concerned there was no such thing, I've always thought it was total BS, and the more Warne talks about it in recent times it never existed. He bowled 'Big' Leg breaks with an angled seam which had the characteristics where if the seam was angled so much the seam wouldn't grip and the ball would skid on. In recent discussions with people on SKY here in the UK he's talked about and laughed at the idea that he bowled a slider saying that it was just a big Leg Break as described above and was just natural variation of that delivery. There is no such thing as a Slider, it's total nonsense and you'll never find it written about in any book because it's a total misnomer. Although - there's some footage of Jateen Patel on here from 2014 bowling an amazing spell where he bowls orthodox finger spin and looks as though unlike Warne who put his skiddy leg breaks down to (a) Cold hands or (b) Natural variation, Patel appears in the video footage to very intentionally angling the ball so that it skids on. Again the commentators who are not bowlers and have never had the pedigree to be able to name a delivery, call it a slider, but in essence it's his usual Off-Break, but with an angled seam. I'm of the opinion that someone with some pedigree needs to write a Peter Philpott or Clarrie Grimmett style book on the art of bowling and describe a 'Slider'. I doubt if anyone will because it doesn't exist, it's just a normal delivery that skids on for what-ever reason.
I'd not considered that possibility, Dave - I've always been suspicious of the idea that you can push the ball out of the front of the hand with minimal spin yet disguise it as the stock ball - I presume that's what you mean by the slider? If you mean the "round the loop" backspun ball, Philpott describes it in detail and even comments that it doesn't work on soft wickets as it always has plenty of sidespin in addition to the backspin.
A book that's essential in the library is "The Bowlers Art" by Brian Wilkins where he describes spinning the ball with a seam angled off the vertical and at an angle from the batsman as practised by S.F. Barnes. Taking a natural progression of the angling of the wrist so the ball spins more in the horizontal plane (I coach players to think of it spinning like a UFO), which will gain more "drift" from the Magnus affect and not turn (as it lands on the smooth surface of the ball) thus appearing to "skid" or "slide" to the untrained [or commentators' eye ;-)]
Chris, the day someone with some pedigree writes that down in a book with a clear description of the delivery and says "That is 'The Slider' I'll be right behind them, till then I'm not having it, it's the work of amateurs, pundits and commentators.
@leftie600 Yeah I've just ordered Twirlymen just 1/2 hour ago, a bloke on bigcricket was also on about both these books and I didn't make the connection, he's obviously reading the thread here and he's been quicker than me to pick up on your recommendations! I had a look for the Wilkins book, but they're most over your side of the world, I'll have to bide my time to pick up one on the cheap, although this happened with the Grimmett books and the retailers seemed to notice - continued..........
@someblokecalleddave1 You should also try batting! Its great fun once you get into the real thing. From when I was 12 to just a month back, I was completely biased towards bowling, and regarded batting as "easy - at least easier than bowling, with way too much luck" - in other wors, inferior. I still believe it is easier than bowling, at least spin bowling, and you can get really lucky while there is no such thing as 'luck' when bowling - even if there is, only a little luck.
@johnnycheck99 This needs a long answer, I'll email you.
Yesterday i bowled couple of these...basically its a top spin.........swing a bit when bowled form over da wicket...........
@Hassananime The back-spinner; Back of your hand faces you.
w003394 I'll reply on the previously mentioned forum and it'll probably generate more comment from some of the others.
@someblokecalleddave1
Sorry Dave, I wrote that as a reply to one of your blog posts, but I haven't got the right account. It is out of context in this video - my apologies. You know far more about this trhan I ever will, and, as a wheelchair user, I can't bowl properly in the sense that I can't run up, jup into a delivery stride etc. Having recently read Philpott's book, I'm reading the forum you mentioned and your blog to see how those that actually put this theory into practice see it.
@WhatElseExceptNature No far from it! I came to cricket far too late in life, brain washed by the idea that England is great footballing nation (I was 6 when we won the world cup). I read a lot about it and have experimented with a lot of these deliveries and used many in match situations. Gone through the googly syndrome and still trying to recover from that properly. I bat at No11 and get quite a few not outs. But I probably experiment and bowl a lot of wrist spin - good and bad!
w0033944 - I have to concede I'm no expert, I bowl a bit, but I'm sure you'll probably agree this very subjective and if you read the book open to interpretation. There's a lot of discussion on the Big Cricket forum (Wrist spin thread) between me and several others on this these deliveries, by all means log on and discuss this in far more detail over there, as there's not enough room to do so here.
Dave
@someblokecalleddave1 Haha you are an interesting guy! And oh I was looking up tips for flight and dip on google and I read an article and I saw a comment by you on it. Site is htt ://ww.pitchvision. com/spin-bowling-flight-and-guile. And its recent as well! What a coincident. I also am messaging you for some things.
sir r u some coach in australia i want to play at some decent level cricket i am very talented but india very corrupt and racist.(caste based)
No, I'm in England mate. I've heard about the caste situation over there, but thought it was something that was in decline these days? Is there no way you can play for a lower level team and just play well and get noticed and selected on merit?
+someblokecalleddave1 I can only play Play T 20 unoofical like I only pay entrance fee to play n even after takin 5 wickets n scoring ,50 ,noone notices
+someblokecalleddave1 can I cme to england n play county I m gud n got lot of mystery
@shutuprafa You're getting too technical for me now Shutuprafa! I've very little knowledge of many of the bowlers you mention, but it's interesting in what you're saying about the Pakistani bowlers & drift. Drift is something I'm interested in at the moment, but there's very little footage of Qadir and Mustaq to have a look at and see what you mean, I'll go and have a look at them now. I always thought that Warne was well known for his ability to get the ball to drift?