How to fit a Collar on a Draft Horse!! // D-Ring Harnesses

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  • Опубліковано 16 лис 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 112

  • @TubbyLadyDallas
    @TubbyLadyDallas Рік тому +31

    This is very interesting and I have never had horses and at age 72 it is highly unlikely I will ever have a horse, but I find this really interesting. Even the parts on how to place the equipment on a horse are extremely fascinating. I've watched Jim do this, but until he explained it to Chris, I didn't understand the nuances. Thank you.

    • @abr6480
      @abr6480 Рік тому

      O really enjoy what you do with the teams . It reminders me of when I spent time withy grand parents as a young kid.

  • @hughperkins707
    @hughperkins707 Рік тому +17

    Jim your knowledge and patience is incredible. Anyone who has ever worked with horses can learn from you simply because there’s always something new to learn..

  • @shelleyyates6855
    @shelleyyates6855 Рік тому +7

    Hi Jim, Brenda and Chris, hope that you're enjoying you stay Chris, do you have a UA-cam Channel, Jim thank you for sharing, sending hugs to all and kisses for Lady, Princess Bree Joy, Ken, Bill, Baron, Duke and earl I think that's a job for you Brenda, I'm sure it's your most favourite job to do, lol, sending hugs from Shropshire UK.💗

  • @susiejett8289
    @susiejett8289 Рік тому +13

    Jim can explain things so well. He is very easy to understand with his easy going way. Love all the videos and look forward to every one of them. Brenda you are very relaxing too when you are telling us things.

  • @bobogilvie4472
    @bobogilvie4472 Рік тому +1

    Even though I will never be able to use this knowledge I really enjoy your videos.

  • @TheGspencer
    @TheGspencer Рік тому

    Hi I am from Athens TX and for some time I have enjoyed watching you and your working horsed. During the 40's my father plowed thousand of acres of cotton in Eastern Oklahoma (Vian/Sallisaw... Drakes Parrie) When I was around 4 or 5 I noticed my father had a save to rub on the horses. Starting in the late winter / early spring my dad would harness each horse to a log for them to pull all day while they grazed. He said that he was doing this to toughen up their mussels and callous any sores before the work season started. When he was plowing the garden with a single horse he put me on so I could ride... at 80 I still remember the smell of the sweating horse. I am looking forward to more information on the Hems and their fit and purpose.
    You are showing me things that I never got to learn from my father... Thanks

  • @marionberry6909
    @marionberry6909 Рік тому +1

    Excellent! Excellent! Great video for us novice "wannabe" teamsters. The details of why you do, or need, certain things is paramount to know.

  • @dustincharleyboy
    @dustincharleyboy Рік тому

    Oh Jim, schooling this guy, so nice of you

  • @gaylesmith1738
    @gaylesmith1738 Рік тому +2

    First thing I saw at the beginning was the cane!! 😮 But, when Jim explained what it was I thought it was so cool!!! 😀 All this info is SO interesting! Jim, you really have a way of teaching things plainly! 🙂

  • @deannalemburg10
    @deannalemburg10 Рік тому +3

    Yup when you have been doing something for years it becomes an extension of yourself like putting on your shoes so hats off to Jim for being able to explain what he does and why

  • @territn8871
    @territn8871 Рік тому +6

    I'm enjoying your explanations on sizing up the proper size collar and sweat pad. I wonder if Chris will be able to find collars and harnesses in Germany like the ones Jim uses. Baron started pawing as though he was saying "let's quit talking and get to work"! I love Baron, he gets more handsome every time I see him. And he just keeps muscling up and lookin' good! Oooh, I got a peak at Baron's baby girl and Lady!! Hope Lady's milk is coming in more now that Bree has drunk all the colostrum!

    • @chrislittlefarm
      @chrislittlefarm Рік тому +3

      It's almost impossible to find these types of collars and harnesses over there. So I'm most probably going to purchase one while here and have it sent to Germany

  • @joqlady888
    @joqlady888 Рік тому +4

    It is going to be great that Chris will have this video as a learning tool also,,to go over and over if he needs to.

  • @Nordic_Mechanic
    @Nordic_Mechanic Рік тому +3

    Some people are great at doing but very poor at communicating it. You Jim are both knowledgeable AND able to pass on that knowledge. What a great way to learn than to find someone online who does what you want to do and fly over there for in-person experience.

  • @thirzapeevey2395
    @thirzapeevey2395 Рік тому +4

    You are absolutely correct about the fitness issue. Some things that help, besides getting the horse fit, are washing the shoulders with liniment and keeping the collar very clean and wiped with oil so it stays smooth. This isn't instead of working, but while you are conditioning so they don't get a season ending sore while they are getting fit. Back in the day, it wasn't uncommon for a farmer to keep a (sealed) coffee can with a neatsfoot oil soaked rag where he hung his harness, and wipe over the collar face every time he put it away. Don't leave an open can with an oily rag. That was before collar pads were common, of course. I used to find collars at auctions all the time, where the face looked brand new, and the hame side of the collar was rotted and worn away to shreds, because that was the side that didn't get wiped daily. Having a smooth face against their shoulders is of prime importance.
    Another thing people don't think about is having the hames correctly fitted to the collar, and having the point of draft at the right place along the hame. On many hames, that point is fixed with the trace riveted onto the hame, but on the old Tennessee harnesses, such as Zach Odom is using, it was common to have a hame hook to attach the trace chains, and that enabled moving the trace chains up and down by as much as six inches. That meant that if your horse developed a sore shoulder, you could move that trace chain up or down find a better spot. I just went and checked Zach Odom's channel, and he does have hame hooks on his harness. I suspect that nicety might have been developed because there were a lot of mules and saddle horses in use in that region, and what fits one doesn't necessarily fit the other. Many people had a team of mules for heavy work, but used their little saddle horse for extra power, or for cultivating the tobacco or the garden. I wasn't in Tennessee, but rather in southern Kentucky, but that was the type of harness everyone in my area was using. My harness was some my grandfather had gotten for me in Pennsylvania, so I was the odd one out in my area. No one else had harness like mine. Mine was what you've been calling western harness, but it was made in Eastern Pa and was Amish harness.
    Besides the point of draft, having that bottom hame strap or chain TIGHT is paramount as well. Not only will the hame shift around if it isn't tight, but it can pop off the collar, which can be disastrous, depending on the type of harness you have. It might not be so bad with your D-ring harness, but with a "western" harness, as you call it, you lose your brakes, and if you have a slip on neck yoke, it can give you enough slack for that yoke to slip off the tongue.
    Bill has a much more sloping shoulder than Ken, and that will make the collar shift back more than a horse with a straighter shoulder like Ken. Baron has a very sloping shoulder, and he's a stallion as well, so he has a massive neck. Collars are regular or straight, half sweeney and full sweeney. I always had an issue with my team on this account. Kentucky Mountain Saddlehorses tend to have a very straight shoulder, and mind was no exception. It makes the collar fit very differently, and it makes their action/gait different from a horse with a sloped shoulder.

    • @leesvision
      @leesvision Рік тому +1

      That makes sense, and that was interesting. It seems like the different harness systems were developed with the kind of work load that was being done. And even to some extent the culture or location too.much ❤️

    • @leesvision
      @leesvision Рік тому +1

      I did notice with Jim's horses the one he was showing had a very straight shoulder , I have seen other horses that had more of a rounded shoulder. So it makes sense the build of the horse does affect at least to some degree the different harness systems.

    • @thirzapeevey2395
      @thirzapeevey2395 Рік тому +1

      @@leesvision That is true, but straight shoulder in this instance isn't in opposition to round, but rather where it falls between 60 degrees and maybe 80 degrees. A horse whose shoulder is more vertical will carry a collar differently than a horse whose shoulder slopes more toward horizontal. The collar will want to push back more toward the windpipe on a horse with a sloped shoulder, and will hang from the neck on a horse with a more vertical shoulder. The difference in shoulder slope also effects gait and shock absorption. A horse with a sloping shoulder is very prized in riding horses, because they jolt less than a straight shoulder. It will change how high they lift their feet, how likely they are to get navicular disease, and many other factors.

    • @leesvision
      @leesvision Рік тому +1

      @@thirzapeevey2395 that's Interesting i didn't know that. I dont have a whole lot of experience with horses but that makes alot of sense. Thank you for teaching me :) and also sharing your life experience. I love learning and I find that one can learn alot from others experience. I also have a intrest in the farming with horses or mules, and the equipment used to do it .

    • @thirzapeevey2395
      @thirzapeevey2395 Рік тому

      @@leesvision My pleasure.

  • @arlysdavis3694
    @arlysdavis3694 Рік тому +4

    As usual I enjoy and learn so much from your videos and how fun to have Chris there to learn what they do in Germany . Thank you, but I was so disappointed we didn’t get to see Bree.

  • @johncollins500
    @johncollins500 Рік тому

    Jim, you were talking about a framing square and I just thought that a drywall would work very well being that it is 48" long. Beautiful country Germany is. Wasn't in Bamberg Germany in 1972 serving in the U.S. Army loved it

  • @tylerwells9953
    @tylerwells9953 Рік тому +1

    Around here horses would generally have the summer off and start working sometime in the fall, as they were usually used for hauling firewood or pulp wood on snow . So their shoulders would be quite fat when they started working. To prevent sores my grandfather would put goat skin under the collar ( hair against hair) just like a sweat pad,because goat skin is so soft. Different times back then, but still did the trick.

  • @evabetlyon2693
    @evabetlyon2693 Рік тому

    Good lessons..I really like that Jim showed how to measure correctly..don't know a thing about harnesses or collars but it never hurts to learn..who knows maybe someday I'll have a buggy or wagon and will at least understand something about fit and the importance of toughening up the shouler..as always prayers and blessings

  • @sandyboe7344
    @sandyboe7344 Рік тому +3

    Baron really was determined to show his best side for the camera lol.

  • @garywilson12
    @garywilson12 Рік тому

    jim your explaining of collar size was so interesting and iam sure helpful for chris

  • @bain5872
    @bain5872 2 місяці тому

    I sometimes wonder what horses are thinking about us? Every time I do, I can't help but laugh, man we have got to be comical to animals.🤣

  • @malcolmthomas9953
    @malcolmthomas9953 Рік тому

    Thanks too you all , you know your stuff Jim l guess you had many years off working horses 🐎 so you can look at a horse and work thins out , yes hard work will tuffern things up like you said Jim about your hands ✋️ Harding up with hard work 👍

  • @jemreandeau3583
    @jemreandeau3583 Рік тому

    Love all your videos but this one is extra special. I have learned so much, I’ll never use that knowledge but it was fun learning. You’re a great instructor Jim.

  • @MikelJay
    @MikelJay Рік тому +2

    Great instructions, explanations of the hows and whys for proper fit with all the variables was fantastic.

  • @dr.b865
    @dr.b865 Рік тому +2

    There is so much valuable info in this vid. I really appreciate you passing all this knowledge along- documented for future gens as well. I have a 4 year old Polish Coldblood I use for dressage, but you inspire me to teach him to pull.

    • @thirzapeevey2395
      @thirzapeevey2395 Рік тому

      Driving is very beneficial for a dressage or event horse. Driving develops a lot of power in the hindquarter, back and belly muscles which makes the horse lighter on the front end. I trained a friend's gymkhana pony to drive decades ago, and when she tried jumping him after several months of pulling a carriage, he nearly jumped her out of the saddle. He had so much more power than he'd had before. There is also such a thing as dressage in harness. You'll also find that driving a horse in shafts pretty much forces him to learn to cross his feet, and will be much better at side passing and other such movement after learning to drive in harness.

  • @payntpot7623
    @payntpot7623 Рік тому +1

    Really helpful, thank you for this. What you say about tighter collars rubbing less on unfit shoulders makes a lot of sense.
    In English harness it is called a "breast collar" and in English riding tack it is called a "breast plate" or "breast girth". That was what I was taught when I studied saddlery and harness making in the UK.
    I was taught to put the angle of the square at the bottom ie, on the throat area rather than over the mane when measuring. That way, you have a direct and absolutely straight angle out from the throat to the outside of theshoulder where you then measure from. Using your arm/hand as you had to can be very subjective and the correct angle eliminates this and is more accurate. Having said that, you seem to have it down pat for your own needs. This advice may just help other people.

  • @leesvision
    @leesvision Рік тому +1

    So it seems like in general with collars if you can put your fist in the bottom Gap, it's too big , and if you can't get a flat hand in there it's to small. So ideally one to two flat hands in the gap is good fit. 👍 I learned something today. Much ❤️

  • @nenaddjuric6518
    @nenaddjuric6518 Рік тому +2

    Great video ! Collar harnesses are superior in every possible way other than being able to adjust to a lot of horses.

  • @jamesabare4877
    @jamesabare4877 Рік тому +2

    Great teaching video on collars.

  • @randybutler4772
    @randybutler4772 Рік тому +1

    This is very interesting and important information. Thank you for sharing.🐴🐴🐴

  • @joqlady888
    @joqlady888 Рік тому

    Chris so glad you have this opportunity to have such an excellent teacher...lov from south alabama.

  • @bhensel100
    @bhensel100 Рік тому +1

    Great information and explanation, Jim.
    Thank you for the time to give me, a novice, your shared wisdom.

  • @Ronald-hx6zn
    @Ronald-hx6zn Рік тому +1

    Really enjoy Jim's teaching moments proving everyone can always learn something.
    Thanks.
    Looking forward to Brees growth.

  • @benbrown8258
    @benbrown8258 Рік тому

    This video was worth gold. I only had a couple of weeks for a couple of summers to help the teamsters with their draft horses years ago and this helped me understand better what a couple of them had been trying to explain. Gosh... Baron makes me think Suffolk are just massive punch size draft. It could be because he is a stud, but, thinking back, even local Suffolk I've seen look heavily muscled. I wonder how they compare to a purebred heavily working American Cream Draft?

  • @jamescox8233
    @jamescox8233 Рік тому +1

    Hi, Jim, Brenda, and Chris. This was a fantastic learning video on collar's, for draft horses. Jim, I have learned so much from you over the years, I learn somthing new every time i am on your farm in the video's. That's what makes your video's so interesting..GOD BLESS >>Jim, Nova Scotia, Canada.

    • @chrislittlefarm
      @chrislittlefarm Рік тому

      Hi Jim, always enjoy reading your comments! Have a wonderful day! -Chris

  • @debbievogt9881
    @debbievogt9881 Рік тому

    Wow Brenda, all the boys are super patient

  • @dianestoltz8502
    @dianestoltz8502 Рік тому +1

    You make it look easy when you do it Jim 😊

  • @mickholroyd2190
    @mickholroyd2190 Рік тому +1

    Hello, I use 2 squares to get a line top n bottom...I also come off the shoulder about 2 or 3 fingers that gives a more accurate measurement...

  • @tracyjohnson2992
    @tracyjohnson2992 Рік тому +2

    I found this video very interesting lots of great tips and tricks in how you fit your horses collars. Its always great to hear how the harness fits and how it is supposed to fit. I know there are suttle differences between the size of the horses neck sizes but this has shown it in better explanation on the harness and neck collar fitting. I have never owned a harness horse but harness for working and a harness for racing are two different harness and now i know more about the working harness. It has been enlightening. So thanks for that Jim. I wish Chris all the best for buying the working harness for his horses. Have a great day Jim Brenda and Chris. Take care, God bless. Please stay safe, and see you in the next video.

  • @melanierandolph6953
    @melanierandolph6953 Рік тому +1

    Really enjoyed this. I had basically forgotten what I knew. We used to have a poney that I harnessed regularly. I was afraid you had injured yourself when you came out with the cane, glad all is well.!

  • @loriegreene9375
    @loriegreene9375 Рік тому +2

    Once again I learned so much from this video. Although, I do not have a horse, I guess I am just curious how this works. Jim, you are a good instructor and Brenda you are a good videographer. You make a good team. I love the horses!

  • @ericvogel1126
    @ericvogel1126 Рік тому +1

    😂A very interesting video. As always we learn something new about working with draft horses. Thanks, Jim, you explain things in a way that we can understand. A welcome to Chris, we hope you enjoy your visit to the US.

    • @chrislittlefarm
      @chrislittlefarm Рік тому

      Thanks! Really enjoy the visit. Great people and a great country here!!!

  • @stumpy2816
    @stumpy2816 Рік тому

    Very interesting Jim👍👍

  • @uchiharose9927
    @uchiharose9927 Рік тому +2

    Love the video and your channel❤

  • @paultighe3735
    @paultighe3735 Рік тому +1

    Great video Jim and Brenda

  • @kentcorbett5436
    @kentcorbett5436 Рік тому +4

    We didn't get to see lady and bree lol have to add a minutevor two to every video so we can see them

    • @Cricket2731
      @Cricket2731 Рік тому

      There was a glimpse of Lady in one shot...

  • @GeraldCraig-n2q
    @GeraldCraig-n2q Рік тому +1

    Take two framing squares put short end of one on top of neck other short end at bottom of neck hold tight pull off measure inside size of neck

  • @martyjones9043
    @martyjones9043 Рік тому +1

    Great job Jim I learned a ton 👍

  • @deejochen9106
    @deejochen9106 Рік тому

    So much helpfulness! Learned alot as usual. Thank you

  • @strub6732
    @strub6732 Рік тому +3

    Can you show Baron next to the other two Suffolks. I think Baron looks a lot bigger since he first came to the farm.

  • @dianehookham
    @dianehookham Рік тому

    This was a really interesting video

  • @rodneywroten2994
    @rodneywroten2994 Рік тому +2

    very nice video

  • @coreywest1183
    @coreywest1183 Рік тому

    Very very interesting!

  • @laidoffjournalist
    @laidoffjournalist Рік тому

    Great info. Thanks.

  • @tinachambers4887
    @tinachambers4887 Рік тому

    Hi Chris have a day love from TEXAS

  • @debbievogt9881
    @debbievogt9881 Рік тому +1

    All Bill wants is a little love

  • @sueheaman7186
    @sueheaman7186 Рік тому

    Very good video. I only occasionaly work mine, fall, winter and spring. I sometimes jump between two different sizes of collars. In winter and spring an inch smaller one as he loses weight over the winter. I still don’t fully understand what you mean by half Sweeney / full Sweeney. I use the western harness and it is sloppy as that is what my dad used. Didn’t know anything about a D-Ring harness until I started watching your videos. Thanks for the eduction on them 🙌🏼 🤠🐴🇨🇦

  • @todd1808
    @todd1808 Рік тому

    Master Teamster !!

  • @Nordic_Mechanic
    @Nordic_Mechanic Рік тому +1

    that cane is awesome. Our horses are slow growing and we wait til fully grown to work with. Does the cane go to 20 hands?

  • @tomstillman7143
    @tomstillman7143 Рік тому

    For a new teamster, I’d recommend an adjustable collar.

  • @kimcool6327
    @kimcool6327 Рік тому

    Very interesting

  • @sueupham2519
    @sueupham2519 Рік тому

    very good information

  • @stuglenn1112
    @stuglenn1112 Рік тому +1

    I've seen enough YT video's to know they use neck collars and harness with hames over in Europe, but the construction of the collar looks totally different than what we use here in the States. Does Chris plan on using American Harness? I guess with on-line shopping not a problem.

  • @michaelmeyers1827
    @michaelmeyers1827 Рік тому

    I think your reasons why are great

  • @terrywhitenight9188
    @terrywhitenight9188 Рік тому

    Use to squares held together to measure. Will you have aces to those European neck coalers ?

  • @printaboul
    @printaboul Рік тому +1

    Printaboul = Gaëtan
    About that stud neck of Baron ... Does a horse made gelding, like your two colt, will develop a less full neck?

  • @janellevoigt5481
    @janellevoigt5481 Рік тому

    Ok, Jim, what a half sweeney collar? I might have missed that... thanks!

  • @mariephenix7168
    @mariephenix7168 Рік тому

    WoW thanks

  • @wildedibles819
    @wildedibles819 11 місяців тому

    Like working hard in new work boots

  • @richardsurber8226
    @richardsurber8226 Рік тому

    there has to be a lot of english to metric conversion if Chris wants to try the western harness parts

  • @TallPaul1288
    @TallPaul1288 Рік тому +1

    Been nice to see a collar too small or big compared to the one you use on a horse. Maybe,
    Seems like the shape or size of their shoulders determines the collar size. Yes/no?

  • @beatapierzchala9428
    @beatapierzchala9428 Рік тому +5

    In Europe peoples use inch to measured fit collar or hams. Then is not so different than US

    • @TigreQuiMiaule
      @TigreQuiMiaule Рік тому

      Yes is true. it is the same tecnologi. Wath are you from?

    • @uteschneider3349
      @uteschneider3349 Рік тому

      In Großbritannien gilt Zoll. Die anderen Länder nehmen meist dss metrische System. Deutschland hat das metrische System.

  • @nicolaraine3204
    @nicolaraine3204 Рік тому

    In England working horses use the same collars you use.

  • @boscodog4358
    @boscodog4358 Рік тому +1

    How do you measure a collar?

  • @d.g.n9392
    @d.g.n9392 Рік тому

    Interesting video, understand a little better. I’m going to google the English harness and breast plate, breast collar, breast girth, as one other viewer has mentioned, just for my curiosity 🙋‍♂️🐈🐈

  • @jamesabernathy6470
    @jamesabernathy6470 Рік тому

    Full face which is a mule collar half sweeny and full sweeny for a stud with a thick top line

  • @benrogers5808
    @benrogers5808 Рік тому

    Do draft horses pull or push? 🦞🤷

  • @abr6480
    @abr6480 Рік тому

    why do you keep there neck main cit shot
    On the horse's ?

  • @christelchristely2816
    @christelchristely2816 Рік тому +2

    Of course collars are in use in Europe. Its a Kummet in German.

  • @sheilapalmer1138
    @sheilapalmer1138 Рік тому +1

    Love your videos, but where is the baby !!!! 😆 🤣 😂 😹 😆 ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

  • @susangonzalez6200
    @susangonzalez6200 Рік тому

    Does he have a phone that he can have Brenda Video record all of this information?

  • @carolynharmon7074
    @carolynharmon7074 Рік тому

    😊

  • @joqlady888
    @joqlady888 Рік тому

    Dear Jim and Brenda I hope you and your animals and farm are ok...have read about the smoke from Canada coming your way. May God's Angel Army put a shield around your property.

  • @highlyunlikely3698
    @highlyunlikely3698 Рік тому +1

    Breast harness..we call them breast harness. Here in uk Most of us still measure in inches too

  • @richardsurber8226
    @richardsurber8226 Рік тому

    pretty technical. But please don't take that wrong. I like tech

  • @smilingsun581
    @smilingsun581 Рік тому

    Hopefully, this horse receives proper shoeing and vet care. Most of this draft horses are literally worked into the ground for years, over-grown hooves, infections, halter digging into their faces and never turned out, the list goes on. Hopefully, this beautiful animal will not end up at the auctions like 90% of them.

  • @boathead22000
    @boathead22000 Рік тому

    jim got his 1,0000 mords in

  • @gwilliams4444
    @gwilliams4444 Рік тому

    👍🏽👍🏽

  • @casinogotthis5462
    @casinogotthis5462 Рік тому +1

    Love watching you guys but I still think you need a good dog, a germen shepherd🐕‍🦺

    • @uteschneider3349
      @uteschneider3349 Рік тому

      Ich dachte auch, wo ist der Wachhund?
      Ich würde aber einen Deutschen Spitz empfehlen. Einen Großspitz, oder einen Mittelspitz.
      Das sind sehr gute Wachhunde. Alarmanlagen auf 4 Pfoten. Kein Mensch oder Tier kann sich unbemerkt dem Grundstück nähern.

    • @chips4974
      @chips4974 Рік тому +1

      Breed of dog may not be important. But if the dog chases and harases Jim's horses it might have a shortened life span .Upstate N Y is a low crime area .Yes lots of criminals, but they are all behind bars (Donammora) . Plattsburgh . State prison at Burk farm dogs Nick name (the 4 legged doorbell ).

  • @dannygoin6552
    @dannygoin6552 Рік тому

    🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🍻🍻🍻🥃🥃🥃👀👀👀👍👍👍☕️☕️☕️🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

  • @sammybailey5543
    @sammybailey5543 Рік тому

    Jim areyou going to breed Lady back

    • @chips4974
      @chips4974 Рік тому

      Oh Sammy let's have some fun with this . Jim no ,Baron yes or maybe ( if Jim let's him ).My question is how will Jim control Baron once he ( smells) Lady in season .

  • @robertdonaldson6584
    @robertdonaldson6584 Рік тому

    2 feet is 61cm

  • @larrydog9832
    @larrydog9832 Рік тому

    why are you using a cane??

    • @chips4974
      @chips4974 Рік тому

      This is fun . When is a cane not a cane but a measuring stick ?