Frank, thank you for being honest. I left evangelical Christianity in the 80's and have never regretted that! Today I am free and know that we are living love. As is, and loved!
I am so glad for people like you. I wish more evangelicals would abandon it also. When I hear them speak and support trump it truly scares me.
5 років тому
Roger Roberts you will regret it one day. Stop ignoring Judgement Day.
5 років тому
@Kyle Towers So why do you think there is a something and not what we would logically assume to be the most likely condition that nothing could exist.
5 років тому
@Kyle Towers What's exciting is that we cannot prove the existence of the spiritual world. What points to it is the fact that the universe came into existence. While some like you believe it came into existence out of nothing, others like myself realize that nothing can't be come unstable enough to explode, can't create dimension, time and energy and can't create matter. There we must conclude our existence is impossible. Yet here we are! Don't get me started on the first living cell which was packed with information and had the ability to replicate itself. You. Kyle, believe that cell created itself and its DNA coding system on the rocky lifeless planet known as earth. Kyle you have a whole lotta faith about some things. You just don't want to believe a God exists. He does and he's even greater than you.
5 років тому
@Kyle Towers waiting for your explanation about how nothing created time, space, matter and energy. Waiting for your explanation of how a living cell packed with information can be created on a rocky planet. Those are two basic elements of the belief system you claim is "scientific". Love to hear it. And if you don't know then how come you based your entire world view on ignorance?
Better yet..’open your mind’. Dogma closes your mind because by choosing to be ‘lie’ ve it...you give consent to attachment programming. That’s what we had before we broke free from it. It’s wonderful to be whole and complete and free from dogma. :)
As a former fundamentalist evangelical, I can say it's not that easy. It takes complete separation from this culture, therapy, even living in a different area.
Thanks! My story too. I was involved with your father in the 1970's. Took me until 1993 to admit that I was on a wrong and destructive path. I could not see anything but the bible for almost 35 years. It took the drowning death of my wife and a long stay in a hospital to wake me from my stupor. Many of us were held in fundamentalism by fear of hell. My life became so hell like I no longer feared it and was able to let go of the dogma. I am now very happy and at peace,able to care for and about myself.
You are right roder51. I still have many friends captive to fears in fundamental churches. Fortunately reality and personal experiences in their times of trouble will confirm a different reality. I am learning to stop believing and have become a seeker again. ( relying on experience rather than dogma)
I just got away from dating an evangelical - your videos are VERY helpful! His 'faith' was not Christian, and he used it for his own personal gain. Very dark. I am a Christian... but not like that!!!! Yikes!
@Gregory Jenkins If I may reply...Love is Sacrifice. Not eros love or self-serving love but a deeper love that almost hurts. We use stories to make our lives have meaning and deeper understanding. The story of an all-powerful creator becoming an ape and dying for his creation is a fascinating story to me. Parts of this story are backed by historical documents but for me, the understanding comes through considering God and stepping out in faith. Faith to me is like science. It starts out as multiple tests, but as the journey continues the walk deeps and God develops evidence and revelation for your faith. I may be romantically self-deluding but learning to live with less so I can give more and loving people who are unlovable yet needing grace and mercy points me back to that example of a God dying on a cross for some filthy apes. Thanks for letting me share and definitely no judgment for any counter thoughts.
@@BrianLindahl - Striving to be good and self-sacrificing for the benefit of your fellow humans and the good of humanity is a wonderful thing to do, but you don't need any "God" to do that or to make it good or worthwhile. In fact, introducing a "God" into that equation unnecessarily obfuscates the reasons for doing it and falsely supports the idea that humans are fundamentally flawed and cannot do anything good out of their own motivation. If a "God" metaphor helps you to remain humble, then I say whatever works for you, but the problem with so many of these "God" metaphors (Christianity, Islam, Hindu, insert-cult-here, etc.) is that they create oppressive "join-us-or-die" narratives that in fact, historically speaking, do result in the exportation of wholesale oppression and death in real life. Your story is very personal and idealistic, but religions are invasive and predatory.
@@spongebrainsqueezepants7175 I totally agree with you... Also love the name and "MeSpongeBobSquarePants"... Religions are pretty deadly and if I were to surmise not all to productive for humans to partake in. From my scarcely bare inept, knowledge of AA and from a movie I watched starring Ben Kingsley, people tend to drift toward finding something of a higher power, maybe a tradition or a ceremony or something that helps define them and ground them. In the movie, Kingsley's higher power was a Bridge. In the end, as you already stated, if something humbles one and makes them a better human being then all the better. Thanks for the feedback! I really enjoyed your insights.
Frank's most important point, perhaps, was at 22:00: "Dealing with my own little grandchildren, there's nothing these kids could ever do to me, get my name wrong or birthday or believe the wrong thing or think I have six arms, that's going to make me burn them forever." Well said, good interview.
+Adam WW But if they demanded to never see their grandpa Frank again, he might let them. And if the lack of his presence was horrible, so what, they always had the ability to choose to stay with their grandpa. If every time they went to grandpa Frank's house they attacked his other guests, and set his house on fire, he might just ban them from coming to his house. Grandpa Frank might say you've got to choose to live by my rules in my house. Frank gives us a childish argument as it is a dis-analogy. God may have the attribute of love but he also has the attribute of justice. While we have some idea what that looks like on an earthly level, on an eternal level, God's requirement for righteousness is not intuitive. Nor his justice. Frank misrepresents the scriptures here. The NT represents God humbling himself and taking the form of a servant Jesus and dying on the cross in our place. It may be true, it may be false. If true, God has gone a lot further than grandpa Frank suggests.
+Uber “Genius” Genie Hey Brother, I appreciate your comment and your ability to lead with a pretty affable tone. I understand how much these topics mean to people, and despite that there are several different angles to approach this type of discussion from, it’s vitally important to keep it friendly, so thank you for that, and I hope we can keep each other in friendliness-check if and as our conversation progresses :) My first point to your first analogy would be that, to demand to never see someone again, necessitates that person having been seen to begin with. So while this analogy may yet be useful for someone like Moses who has ‘seen’ God, or even perhaps like Frank, or someone who was a real believer and had ‘seen’ God in some spiritual/emotional sense, it does not work for those who have never seen or heard of Yaweh. So this is a bit of a dis-analogy here unless you believe that All people Always see God and thus anyone who does not believe in God has in fact rejected him and what they have seen. We see this can’t be true though as almost all children, tribes, and various peoples of the world never know the God of the ancient Israelites, Yaweh, or his fleshly incarnation, Jesus of Nazareth, unless this information is disclosed to them. Most Christians agree on this point which is why proselytizing the Bible is vitally important to them - without seeing or hearing God’s word people are left in the dark, unable to see or know the truth. (Even if you cite Romans 1:20 as a counter, all Christians already make exceptions to this verse, for example for children and youth, mentally slow individuals, etc.) Now you seem to make two different arguments. First, that if one chooses not to see (believe in?) God, then ‘so what’ if the alternative is horrible - it’s their choice. That sounds more like torture by default; there were only two options, you chose on your own accord the more painful option, so tough luck kid. That’s different than the second point you make, about God reeking punishment on individuals who burned his house down and killed his guests - That is more pragmatic and/or a form of torture for the purpose of retribution or justice. Now here you say God’s eternal justice is not intuitive. Yet historically it would seem that God’s justice is really quite intuitive to us. As humanity we have for the larger part of our history tortured, beaten, killed, and sought retribution through many forms of painful, agonizing, violent punishments. It is only recently that groups such as the UN have gone against our eye-for-an-eye intuitive sense of justice to say things like torture is fundamentally unjust, as well as capital punishment, or cutting thieves hands off for that matter. What was once intuitive, and happily aligned itself quite well with the God of the Israelites’ mandated justice, is only now in the better part of this century being called into question. Your final point is that God has gone much further by sending himself down in human form to die on the cross for us. Yet it seems you also hold a perspective that believes in eternal torture as the inevitable and just fate for all mankind without Jesus. In this case, without giving us the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, God would have effectively created beings with the sole fate and for the sole purpose of being tortured eternally, without the slightest hope or opportunity of escape. Such a situation, in which God never offers us Jesus, would truly render him an utterly disgusting, sadistic, omnipotent torture-bot. Yet, thank God for Jesus? Many liberal Christians, agnostics, atheists, and indeed any non-fundamentalists, often raise the argument that God would be sadistic for ever allowing a torture chamber to exists for the beings he loves so much and created, when he is all powerful and all-present, and thus could conceivably contrive a less gruesome outcome for non-believers. Yet this is at least in some thin way attackable, when you consider that God provided a sacrificial scapegoat for that which might condemn us to the gas chamber (sin). And so it becomes our choice to go to hell. (irrespective of not having a choice to be born to being with.) However, without that sacrificial lamb, Jesus - without the opportunity to have our sins cleansed by Christ - all of life becomes a short and disgusting exercise in futility, while we await our horrendous, morbid, unjustified and inescapable fate of endless torture. And so without taking too much away from the idea of God or your beliefs, I hope, given the entire premise of Christianity and original sin, Jesus really HAS to exist in order for God not to be a cruel sadistic freak. So you may consider it a ‘gift’ but it’s the very minimum that he is obliged to offer us to even begin to satisfy his self-proclaimed qualities of unending love and mercy. So you can praise God for giving us the gift of Jesus, but just know, really,...what else was he going to do? Allow little human babies to be born into sin by no fault of their own, die in infancy or adulthood of influenza, small pox, tsunamis, or some other hellish device he allows to exist, all the while with no chance of escaping a fateful consignment to a place of eternal torture? That would obviously be the definition of sadism. I know there are several points here, and theology is always fascinating and deep, so Ilook forward to hearing your responses man. I truly hope I did not offend you. I have every intention of having a productive and peaceful discussion here on this platform of UA-cam that can so quickly become a place for rancid personal attacks. Much love and peace.
+Uber “Genius” Genie Hahahaha.. A Christian claiming another person presents childish arguments is laughable. An adult who believes in absurd fairy tales is childish. You describe your fictional god as loving, yet that supposed love is conditional based upon worship. Biblical texts show that your god was obviously created in man's image not the other way around. His actions according to the bible are vain, vindictive and jealous. According to biblical texts, your god not only condones theft, kidnapping, slavery, rape, murder, and even genocide. he actually commanded those actions. Claiming some moral superiority of Christianity is also laughable. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I am an atheist. My morals are based on intelligent thought, logic, empathy and an adherence to justice and equality. Christian morals are based on reward and punishment, Heaven and Hell. It would seem that my morals are superior to Christian morals in that they don't require an overseer who bribes or threatens me to be a good person." -Uncle Matt
I do believe that people can reach such a level of depravity that they shut off any sense of empathy, regret, repentence and sorrow. So given a hundred years or ten thousand or forever, such people would continue with evil doing. Hell is for people who choose to act worse than demons. We need to know there is a hell, so we feel there is a sense of justice as much as we know God is Love. In that Justice, God knows who sold out their souls with or without Jesus Christ as Saviour.
Thanks Frank, Fellow survivor of the Christian Right, I appreciate your stories of your path toward a greater understanding of yourself and your spirituality and that you survived with your family intact. Thanks for your honesty and willingness to be "out there". Cheers :)
5 років тому
What about your salvation and the day of judgement? On the Day of Judgement you will be judged based on what you did about Jesus. How good a person means nothing. Every human is a sinner in front of a sinless God. Anyone who claims to be good is a liar. So what did you do about Jesus? Remember, if you didn't choose to be with Jesus in this life, he isn't going to force you to be with him in the next.
@ Jesus Christ isn't going to force anyone to do anything because Jesus, God, Allah etc. don't exist. I believe in the Constitution and Freedom of Religion so you can believe and practice as you like but I'm an atheist who needs proof or scientific evidence of God's existence.
@ - "On the Day of Judgement you will be judged based on what you did about Jesus. How good a person means nothing. Every human is a sinner in front of a sinless God." its not clear to me why that would be the case? in the 1970s, when pastors were asked what is the fate of babies who die under the age of 2, they usually would reply that children who die in say car accidents or various accidents might go to heaven or they might go to something they called "limbo" limbo was apparently a state of existence that had a sort of neutral quality to it i find the response kind of silly because how would the pastors know the answer to such a question? :) however, in their replies was a hint of recognition that human destinies varied wildly over a vast spectrum, and it would be difficult to collapse all of those destinies into either heaven or hell. thus there were speculations that realms other than heaven or hell existed. some of their names were "Limbo", "Arcadia", and various others i cannot recall at the moment i think similar questions apply to native americans and aboriginal indians. suppose a person is a member of a tribe in the Amazon rain forest. there is a good chance that they will live out their entire lives having never heard of Jesus, because their society is cutoff from the wider world. they live in isolated forests. why would such indians go to a hell simply for having never heard of Jesus? does that not strike you as a bit absurd? :) might they not instead end up in "Junglevania", some kind of jungle kingdom in the after-life?
5 років тому
@@moegreen3870 Put your trust in Jesus and you can stop having self righteous conversations with your self. You will have to admit you're a sinner and do lotswrong, though. Heaven is for baddies like you and me.
@ - i don't disagree with you that humans can go very far astray and very deep into sinful behaviour. one merely needs to glance at newspaper headlines to see that but do you not have a feeling of profound absurdity in thinking that children who die by accidents, such as car accidents, plane crashes, etc... that those children are in danger of hell if they didn't hear of Jesus yet? because how is it possible for a one year old or a two year old who cant even process English words yet to understand or "hear of Jesus"? to me that seems very absurd. because while children might not qualify as "utterly perfect", why would they be in danger of going to hell? and what of children from indian tribes that have never heard of Jesus. they are in danger of going to hell if they die young? to me that sounds quite ridiculous :) why would God be sending innocent children to hell? in the 1970s the way pastors got around that absurd idea was to say that such children instead went to "Limbo" and so forth
I, too, am a preacher's kid, the only son of six kids; my dad died a few years ago and my mom last year. Finally I feel free to be myself, knowing I won't hurt them .. I'm poor, but happy. I am content not knowing, embracing the mystery and dumping all dogmatism in the dumpster. I've followed you for years, Frank, and you've always been more than an inspiration to me. You've made me feel like I'm not the only one in this odd but comfortable boat. Thank you.
uranomichiaruki1 With respect his perspective is not unique. His rescue from institutionalized insanity ( the purpose of which is control) is unfortunately rare in the USA (see the last 4 years of your government and the massive vote number for a psychopath) but his perspective on life is common in non-insane societies.
Let's start with my philosophy: I am an atheist. I am confident there is no evidence for a god or any type of higher power. However, I must say Frank Schaeffer struck me as a unique individual; someone with the ability to step back from his culture and critically examine it; someone with the honesty to see outside the culture he had been marinating in for much of this life. Very few people possess that level of courage. Good luck to you! I'm buying your book; not to be converted, but just on the chance I can learn something more about life and myself.
Financial gain, privilege, and power are key elements in these movements.
5 років тому+1
But true Christianity is salvation for those accept Jesus as their savior. It is the ultimate investment in the future. The bay off is worth every lottery ever run totalled together and then some.
Religious stardom. Know who the first Religious star was? The same serpent that now hates man and roams the Earth seeking whom he may devour. And he's not a character on TV: Lucifer
+Anna Bell I get that he is doing what publishers like and coming up with a provocative title, but I admit I do find it confusing. Im not about to criticize but it would have been nice to hear him unpack his thoughts regarding that. He kind of seems to side-step the question posed to him about this.
His book is basicly about life. It's about what is real. It's about _being_ real. That's what ideologies on either side don't get. Dawkin.Atheists and Evangelists have one thing in common: They are both Metaphysics driven by a collective "We are always right!" narcissism. We can call all forms of certainty-driven Ideologies as *Metanarcissism.*
I J LOL "Really wise?" He started by creating a false analogy and sweeping generalization followed by mass appeals to snobbery. He gives no reason in support of his view that Evangelism is false. He gives no reason to believe that Christianity as represented in the Bible is false, he gives no ground for why his version of humanism is any less self-serving and meaningless than the Enlightenment, or Existentialism, or Postmodernism were. He has no answers available to him for any of the great questions in life such as where we came from, how should we live, how do we relate to God if God exists and if God doesn't exist in the way the Bible conceives of him then where do we get evil? Please gives us some insight into why you would possibly consider those things above "Wise?"
My parents created their own sect and had a Demonic deliverence ministry. It was crazy to me. They thought almost everyone had demons and I did witness demons come out of people so I reallly was scared of the devil. I was also afraid of God because if you made a wrong move he would punish you. My mom was extremely verbally abusive with Bible thumping scriptures of condemnation. I have been forever affected because of my sensitive nature. My brain waves changed forever and am forever going to battle depression. But my medications help me immensely. And I thank God for Psychiatrists who prescribe it. It saved my life. I am more at peace in my life now and have found more freedom of thought.
Interesting point about your sensitivity. Children are individuals and some simply are more sensitive than others. If you have the misfortune to be born into a stressful, even abusive household philosophy of any kind, it can make life different for you than for others who can casually shake it off. Then the work begins of making ourselves okay. It's why I took a different spiritual path. One that allows for us to be individual.
Francis Schaeffer had a significant career. Really, the guy was a rock star in Protestant theology. Regardless of what you believe, it's pretty wild to be interviewing his son!
I think that what sends people seeking the certainty of fundamentalist religion is when sudden trauma or loss makes people desperate to cling to something. That's when they may either fall in love or find religion. Teenagehood when hormones create a shocking change of outlook can be a time when people fall in love or find religion but also a death in the family or a sudden change e.g. a loss of a job, can have the same effect.
I'm so glad I came across this. I grew up with Francis Schaeffer books on my shelf, but also having gone through the same kinds of experiences that Frank describes here. This is SO refreshing.
I think the thing that was appealing about fundamentalism was that it made you a member of the sanctioned by God club. The rules were strong and sure. You knew who the "right" people were and you knew who the sinners were. And if you learned to do the patter, (God told me [then quote what you've heard]. God wants me to. . . God doesn't like it when we. . . God wants us to hear this. . . The Lord spoke to me. . ) then you were definitely on God's "approved" list, a member of the Christian "In" club. It was great to feel you were sponsored, approved, the legitimate heir to all things good, as long as you didn't break those fundamental rules.
Yes. Whereas new atheists and evangelicals are only talking about who should have the most power - who is "superior" (a term we hear in fascism), Frank is talking about life. About reality. About everyday experience with neighbors getting along. About women and children. About family. Everything that ideologies hardly ever speak about.
Human beings are learning to say “I don’t know” in a very slow, painful and humbling way. At the end of the show, we’ll all say with a big liberating smile: I DON'T KNOW, AND IT'S OK! And then it will be the first step of maturity done by mankind and we'll be in a new stage of human awareness: the stage in which we all understand the very first lesson: we know nothing.
Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and even the broadly beloved, James Dobson and the iconic Billy Graham, do not reflect biblical, historic Christianity. They are unfortunately the face of the "Evangelicalism" (as the term is used today), but that is a far cry from historic, biblical Christianity.
@@w.callens1629 trump is a dictator. i have been saying this for a long time. if he gets pres in 2020 he will be a full blown dictator like his friend putin & kim, who by the way are playing him for a fool. putin luck out getting trump. he had a vendetta against hillary & wanted to keep her from being elected. well he did & got trump. trump will never admit he did not get him self elected because he is narcissist. narcissist are not nice people & can be dangerous. they expected him to go to texas & have empathy for the people who were shot. he is a sociopath & is not cable of feeling empathy & another reason to think he is dangerous. look what he is doing to the kurds. they were our allies & even the women came out with the men to fight with our soldier againt isis. but hey trump said he got rid of isis all by him self. isis men got out so now more isis? he destroys ever thing he touches. he has another year & look at all he could do in one year. he wont testify or he wont let any one else testify so how can we accomplish any thing? he will not be easy to get out & when cohen testify before congress he said it would not be a good transition. i hope one day when i turn on the t v they say trump is gone. wishful thinking.
I looked up Creflo Dollar in Wikipedia. Then I remembered him from before as the church of the entrepreneur how God wants you to make money and stuff. It bothers me that its always the poorest of the poor who send money to these guys and it seems to get worse each year beginning with the advent of the radio when these pastors could reach and collect money from larger and larger audiences. Preachers found how much money could be had during the dirty thirties when people were so absolutely desperate. I have studied religion all my life - every group I can find. I started doing that when I was a kid because I thought my inability to believe was something wrong with me. There isn't. But, with modern MRIs and stuff physiologists have discovered that those who have the most vivid religious experiences have temporal lobe epilepsy. Religion is actually located in the temporal area of the brain close to the hearing centres. Richard Dawkins explains the evolutionary advantage of belief. And while the ability to believe in stuff that does not exist may have meant survival in the jungle in caveman days, in the modern world it may mean the deaths of us all. Interestingly, I was writing this anti-utopian novel about religious belief in which I speculated that religious belief may cause physical harm to the growth and development of child's brain, I have recently come across, in searches through religious internet sites, that this is actually an area of study.
Very interesting. I think I need to friend you on facebook so I don't have to keep jumping back to youtube for conversation. I studied the Siege of Munster when I was doing history in University. In my novel I pay tribute to George Orwell. I think our society needs journalists like him more than ever in today's world. My novel is called ISIS future 2051. It is an extrapolation of ISIS goals of world wide Caliphate, and although we know that this is unlikely to occur the extrapolation into the future makes criticism of extremely touchy subjects easier.
I left fundamentalist Christianity 5 years ago now. Hence why my youtube name is Mr Happy 😊 . The cult I left made me miserable, incapable of rational thought, unable to accept other humans even Christians as true belivers. I'm now free and happy to think, go where I want. I've no enemies now. More accepting and at peace. Btw the cult I was in was the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster.
For me, one of the most brutally ridiculous paradoxes in life is this belief people have about an all-powerful, all-present Being, creator and ruler of *THE UNIVERSE*, but at the same time, people want this entity to be _understandable_ and within *our* grasp of reality. I think that it would be easier to teach many-variables integrals to my dog, than me being able to understand "God" or his "work". #agnostic #believe
"My mom and dad were better than their ideology." What a nice thing to say about your parents. Frank Schaeffer is the best writer - in the sense that he writes elegantly and precisely far above the literary quality of anything you are likely to pick up in this section of the bookstore or the Library of Congress. Of course, on top of skill he was given a unique window on the world of Fundamentalism. "Where ever they started out these guys were running empires." "Certainty addiction..." is an example of what I said above. What I have called "the crack of conviction..." For all the similarities with Evangelicals, remember FS was raised in Switzerland not in America which makes a significant difference. There was the chasm of his lack of ignorance that he could never bridge with American Evangelicals. "Ok... I'm still a schmuck but at least it was me..." Frank Schaeffer seems driven by demons to become an honest man. These are just random notes but it is so entertaining to hear someone -‚ anyone - honestly relate the complexity of the major transitions they have made n their life with clear understanding of the before & after separation yet without the the need to gratuitously put down their past. This is a delight... Thank you both...jt ua-cam.com/video/e_fNTRWsKUY/v-deo.html
The solution to christian fundamentalism is not in relativism/liberalism, but in acquiring deep HUMILITY....that's the reason why I'm a member of the orthodox church like Frank Schaeffer
+contactkeithstack No opposition, but the statement is still true. There's no opposition between an knife and a sword, but a sword would be a better tool than a knife if you were going into a sword fight. (man, and you almost had em, huh....)
Frank, I haven't read your book, but I come from the same background. Even though I'm like four decades younger than you. I grew up in rural Georgia. I was the black sheep. I had my rebellious stage that ended up with our eventual distancing and separation. I did not know why my parents acted as the voice of reason and didn't have a problem with others reinterpreting their words, and yes, you would ask them a remote theological question, you'll get textbook basic answers. I attended a Catholic School from fifth grade until eighth grade. I had to read the entirety of the Bible - uncut and uncensored. At the time, I was surprised that all this "dirt" can come from something marketed as so pure. I don't necessarily have a problem with certain religious texts, I know they're sacred and should stay that way. The Evangelical Right especially takes everything at its most earnest and most literal (no entendre or second definition). I preferred a loving God, not one that condemns random people to eternal damnation and is very thin-skinned and insecure, which heightens the aggression and bitter vengefulness. The same goes with the Qu'ran, how many groups with a classist/racist/homophobic agenda spring up from religion and what happens when you dedicate your whole life into it until the point you're unable to breathe. These groups commit mass genocide, bombings, and lynchings, holding a demographic they deem unholy or inherently evil, hostage all for the sake of "God telling them to do it", not them acting impulsively on their biased, bigoted, ill-gotten gains. I had my gay friends, Muslim and Jewish friends, and was open to higher learning by studying a religion of another person. I was shut out immediately for being friendly towards people who consider themselves other than "Christian", "Conservative-leaning" and dare I say, "White". My folks worshipped figures such as Billy Graham, Ronald Reagan (who IS more pragmatic than 100% fundamentalist, contrary to popular belief), Pat Boone, and Jerry Falwell, saying that "these are the people I aspire to be or base the majority of my life upon" or "as close to perfect a person can ever achieve." Completely ignoring the greed and materialism that stink up their reputation. In the 80's, my grandparents were massively in debt, and they blamed it on themselves, not the massive tax cut, anonymous labor union shutdowns, or the widening gap between rich and working class, or even over-dedication to these money-hungry individuals.
Nothing exploded and created all the energy, matter, time and space of the Universe. Hey Gerald, why aren't you scared nothing is going to explode again destroying this finely balanced Universe? You need to think for yourself !!! Where did the DNA code come from? You make big statements about the Universe. Let's hear your explanation !!!
@Edward Verda The Egyptian god Ra started thing going by masturbating. The seed from his right testicle became Shu (Air) and the seed from his left testicle became Tefnut (Moisture)
Margrit Kaminsky First of all God understands all things and if you do not believe in him that is your choice but there are consequences to unbelief. Try reading John 3:16-21. God will not force no one to repent of their sin and trust in His one and only Son Jesus Christ. You do have a right to choose to believe or not believe. So, you don’t need God to understand anything, He is all knowing dear one.
+mangaas Hi Mangaas. Not sure how this could confirm ideas about mega church pastors since Frankies' dad never was one. Frances was a very kind and loving person who also had a brain. He also was thoroughly familiar with opposing viewpoints, and he would interact with those who held them. with great respect. I find fewer people today either on the faith side or the doubt side who will do that. Perhaps you would find the time to read him. Cheers!Chris
+mangaas The more religious a person professes to be, the less educated, less intelligent and even less civil they are. In other words, if you seek the stupid, the mean spirited, the profane and the pathetic, you will be much more successful in finding these people among the "Godly". I don't believe in God. This fact seems to be a crime in your circles. I am very intelligent, very educated, and also a very productive, kind, generous and loving human being. For some reason all of this doesn't sit well with...religious people. Atheists are superior human beings. Is THAT what upsets you so much?
+schlummieleinchen1 Francis Shaeffer proved it was possible to be intelligent, cultured, conservative and religious. Evangelical Christianity can dumb you down but many intelligent young people are attracted to it. What I have found amongst the New Atheist movement is that they are extremely left brained. Very ISTJ.
+lemsip Preach to atheists at your own risk. You only make yourself look and sound like the fool you are. I merely gave you the option to avoid ridicule by not being so openly ridiculous. Your faith is utterly ridiculous to us atheists. If you refuse to acknowledge this, you are proving my point. Religion is bull shit, and you're pretending it's chocolate mousse. Eat up, sweetheart, more for you!
Marlene Winell's book "Leaving the Fold" was recommended to me by my best friend from Liberty. I'll have to check out Franky's works. I was at Liberty in the early 80's and was brought up in Fundamentalism. I remember him and his father. Honestly, I could never figure out then how anyone who knew how to think could even begin to want to align that ability with this religion. I was 'forced' to go there; packed up and dropped off and I escaped. And in a way, I will always be escaping.
"Let's stop thinking of a creator that's stupider than we are". Love it. Eternal damnation really is stupid. If our God is down for that, I'm smarter than he is.
Frank gave up on Christ because he didn't like the people who were part of the American Evangelical community. I don't blame him, I wouldn't be a Christian if I followed many leaders of the American Evangelical community. Personally, I believe that American Evangelicalism (as it is represented by many of its leaders and their followers) is giving Christ a bad name. However, a true Christian is one who has questioned whether or not Jesus is who he said he is, and have truly had a life changing personal experience with the living Christ. Once that happens, they won't look like the the Christians Frank has so aptly described. Frank experienced a religion, but true Christianity is not a religion, it is a personal relationship with Christ. I know, becasue I have experienced it and continue to do so.
Might I add that after having our lives changed by the personal relationship with Christ that we have, it's supposed to bleed out into other areas of our lives... so personally think it shouldn't stop there.
+Dan Brown I wouldn't even categorize Evangelicals as Christians. They are so far from what Christian belief should be. They only care about spewing hate on everybody that disagrees with them.
It feels personal until you get hit where it hurts. Then it doesn't make sense, and then it gets twisted into some kind of lesson to teach us patience, love, etc. Whatever you want to fill it in with. You are clearly making an excuse to fit your paradigm as to why he didn't have the same experience as you, because you are convinced your way is right and can't fathom why anyone wouldn't find the same thing. We say these things to make ourselves feel more comfortable with what we don't understand. And then write off the experience to ease the discomfort. I used to think the same things about people, and felt so fortunate to know that I had a personal relationship with jesus. I worked as a hospice nurse, and although I had a lot of wonderful growth during this time, I had a lot of challenges to my faith. I saw the random indiscriminate suffering of the people. The holy words don't mean much when you're dying alone. All that matters is action, love, and physical presence. It becomes difficult to even believe jesus is with you when in your darkest hour you feel abandoned. Ask the parents of the 4 yo girl who they watch slowly deteriorate from the brain tumor, paralyzed down one side of her body and no longer able to speak, only able to look you in the eyes with fear. I go to help her and find her on her bedroom floor after seizing and vomiting all over herself while her older brother watches helplessly. Having to load her little body up with medications so she can feel some comfort, begging god to heal her along with her parents who are asking God to heal her as well as they try to understand why. So let's stop talking about a personal jesus bud. You are just trying to reassure yourself to avoid personal suffering as much as possible.
I left evangelical Christianity 16 years ago after being entrenched and brainwashed for 30years. So grateful that God took me out of it and I am now apart of an independent spiritual network
I came from the fundamentalist evangelical background, Frank Schaeffer's writing have been very helpful, he explains my experience within the evangelical church. His insights into the Republican Party and the evangelical church are very important for any Christian living in North America. The GOP and the evangelical church are a disaster.
Love you Frank for being true to yourself, we all have free will to beat our own drum as long as it’s based on unconditional love and respect for each other’s opinions and beliefs everybody walks their own path ♥️
Frank said his father was better than the theology early in the conversation and gave examples at the end of why the theology is inhumane. Good interview, thanks
@@bigtobacco1098 The point of the statement is that Christianity will evolve into something that transcends canonical prescriptions such as the Bible. This view has three merits: 1. It's consistent with how Jesus' desciples may have been "Christians" without "Christianity of the Christian bible" created by the later generations. 2. It allows for the possibility of people exploring and achieving a more-sophisticated understanding or higher awareness of what Jesus was on to (the so-called "Christ consciousness"), through meditations, which by itself is empirical rather than scriptural. 3. It allows for the possibility of a community of spiritual people that is more conducive to peace by bypassing scriptural divisions.
Frak shaefer is a great writer of religious issues and insight into evangelical. Churches. He is a real decent human being. Also exposing the hypocricy of the fundamentalist world. He expose the wickedness of trump and his supporters.
That was fantastic David. I hope everyone can get connected enough to find their own way, and feel when something's not right. People like the ones who get caught up in this, to me, are the sweetest, kindest ones among us, and they are getting used for profit. It's hard to dislike them until they start spewing the hate they're taught to believe.
It's interesting to hear all this. I belonged to a Bible study back in the 70's. Even though we considered ourselves fundamentalists we also considered ourselves all-inclusive, meaning it didn't matter if you were gay, straight, black, white, rich or poor, God's plan of salvation was available to all. It was by faith alone and not of works. Most important of all, we were apolitical. Some of the books we were encouraged to read were the ones by Francis Schaeffer, because we felt his understanding of the Gospel was accurate. Today the word fundamentalism has a negative connotation for me, mostly because it has joined forces with the political right. People don't realize that the true message of the Gospel has been pushed aside and political activism has taken its place. Am I an atheist who believes in God? Perhaps I am. The other options that are out there these days just don't appeal to me.
Fantastic talk and a topic and journey that I can very much relate to! Former Operation Rescuer here 🙋🏽♂️. I was influenced greatly by A Time For Anger as a young man. In a better place now - but Frank Shaffer provides a sense of validation to my own personal evolution. Thank you!
10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours. 9 - You feel insulted and “dehumanized” when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt. 8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God. 7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” including women, children, and trees! 6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky. 5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old. 4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs - though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving.” 3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to “prove” Christianity. 2 - You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God. 1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
I attended Liberty when Frank and his mother and father spoke there...they were indeed venerated "popes" of the evangelical world. My journey with an exodus is similar to Franks...although it took me longer...I was in my 40's when I began to really think for my self....that brings me some sadness and yet better late that never right. I've emailed Frank and bought a piece of his art...I really appreciate his honesty...so many stayed just for the money and career leaving took courage!
I know this is an old vid but I still need to comment-this guys views on religion is what many Christians here in the uk think, I'm an atheist myself but my mum is from the Scottish church and it's a whole lot different from American puritanical thought and evangelicalism. We have Catholics too (mostly in Glasgow) but in the main the uk as far as Christianity goes follows a similar line to this guy as far as I'm can tell. The reason this guy is "different" is because of the foundation of puritanical pilgrims who settled in America and that thought still filters down today
I disagree that he was raised a fundamentalist. Francis Schaeffer was definitely not a fundamentalist at least not in the modern American sense of the term, he did actually embrace label at one point in his life but what he meant by that was to hold to the fundamentals of the Christian Faith, nowhere near what we mean by fundamentalism today. A brilliant thinker through and through.
All I can say is Amen. I was once a Fundamental Christian but I have been set free, I still believe in God but am nauseated by the corrupt unholy thing the fundamental/Conservative thing that much of Christianity has become. Jesus would drive them out of the Temple.
Think for yourself , run things through your mind and determine issues for yourself.........Do not be a pawn , another vote or allow yourself to be manipulated shamed or confused. I am a christen minded man and like to conduct myself with certain christen values. I am not over the top or an out of control fanatic. Peace on earth good will towards man. ( all men )
I just stumbled into this interview. I have never heard of the man but believe me he knows of what he speaks. I was raised in a Southern Baptist Preachers home. I got to see what the doctrine does to many people. Many become hate driven know it all's who often, at least in the church, turn on themselves. Many of these churches split, vote their pastors out and spend time fighting and arguing over doctrine. Truly some of the most unhappy people you will ever meet. And of course that's not all of them but believe me I've seen them in real time and heard the stories from the inside. Personally I gave up on religion at a young age. I still played the part for a few years while living at home but I was never with it in my heart. I went 180 degrees out for years after leaving home, caused much misery to myself and family and ended up an alcoholic, dope fiend and eventually ended up in prison. And that was the good part (smile), prison. Prison was my University. I got to see reality. What, if I continued on my path, I would look like in 5, 10, 20 years and even more. The examples were all around me in living color. I was miserable and cried out every day for help. And guess what it came. And it came in the most amazing and unimagined way. This is getting too long so I'll conclude but I'll just say I came back to God but surprisingly not as a Christian. A pharmacists in prison turned me on to the Quran. I started reading the Quran in the prison library everyday after supper for 6 months. There, along with the teachings of WD Muhammad, I found the answer to all the religious questions that had troubled me throughout my earlier life. I made it folks. I'm now a good citizen and have been for 40 years. I have 3 lovely children/adults now and a beautiful, loving and gracious wife. Compared to my previous life I have a heaven on earth. Thanks for the post I was able to reflect on my many blessings. Peace.
What a lovely human being. I really did not expect to hear my own stumbling take on the understanding of reality to be reflected back to me in such an eloquent and compassionate way.
10:22 reminds me of the advice from Paul about being an overseer in the church: "He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil."
An organization called "the clergy project" assists clergy who has woken up to find a way to transition to other professions and deal with the mental anguish of shunning by former friends and family.
Such a breath of fresh air. My history is just a tad bit different in that I was Bible beaten but just blew it off. It meant nothing to me one way or the other. Then after the fact I simply started asking questions not to any person, but let's just say for the purpose here. I guess introspective. I got definitive answers. That was 40+ years ago has made me who I am today, someone that likes himself. I just so appreciated the way he used the word empathy, just a point I cannot drive home to all of my "religious saved friends and family, biological that is." Dogmatically believing everything they've ever been told, with absolutely no concern for compassion, not being able to understand others are capable of feeling the same kind of joys and pains as they are. Dogmatic blind doctrine reigns supreme, and it's okay to hate others as long as they sin differently than you do. Thanks Dave an excellent interview.
Frank, thank you for being honest. I left evangelical Christianity in the 80's and have never regretted that! Today I am free and know that we are living love. As is, and loved!
I am so glad for people like you. I wish more evangelicals would abandon it also. When I hear them speak and support trump it truly scares me.
Roger Roberts you will regret it one day. Stop ignoring Judgement Day.
@Kyle Towers So why do you think there is a something and not what we would logically assume to be the most likely condition that nothing could exist.
@Kyle Towers What's exciting is that we cannot prove the existence of the spiritual world. What points to it is the fact that the universe came into existence. While some like you believe it came into existence out of nothing, others like myself realize that nothing can't be come unstable enough to explode, can't create dimension, time and energy and can't create matter. There we must conclude our existence is impossible. Yet here we are! Don't get me started on the first living cell which was packed with information and had the ability to replicate itself. You. Kyle, believe that cell created itself and its DNA coding system on the rocky lifeless planet known as earth. Kyle you have a whole lotta faith about some things. You just don't want to believe a God exists. He does and he's even greater than you.
@Kyle Towers waiting for your explanation about how nothing created time, space, matter and energy. Waiting for your explanation of how a living cell packed with information can be created on a rocky planet. Those are two basic elements of the belief system you claim is "scientific". Love to hear it. And if you don't know then how come you based your entire world view on ignorance?
" How to stop being a fundamentalist evangelical christian".
Open your eyes.
@
Thanks for proving my point.
Better yet..’open your mind’. Dogma closes your mind because by choosing to be ‘lie’ ve it...you give consent to attachment programming. That’s what we had before we broke free from it. It’s wonderful to be whole and complete and free from dogma. :)
As a former fundamentalist evangelical, I can say it's not that easy. It takes complete separation from this culture, therapy, even living in a different area.
Thanks! My story too. I was involved with your father in the 1970's. Took me until 1993 to admit that I was on a wrong and destructive path. I could not see anything but the bible for almost 35 years. It took the drowning death of my wife and a long stay in a hospital to wake me from my stupor. Many of us were held in fundamentalism by fear of hell. My life became so hell like I no longer feared it and was able to let go of the dogma. I am now very happy and at peace,able to care for and about myself.
+Rob Noll If Religitards didn't have the Hell threat they wouldn't have a life. Not that they have much of one with it.
You are right roder51. I still have many friends captive to fears in fundamental churches. Fortunately reality and personal experiences in their times of trouble will confirm a different reality. I am learning to stop believing and have become a seeker again. ( relying on experience rather than dogma)
My brother in Eire is involved we are so worried about him , it’s crazy the stuff
@
So what is Heaven like? The bible doesn't say much of anything about what it is actually like. Are you sure it is a place you want to go?
Good for you. Sorry for your loss but at least you gained your freedom.
I left the Evangelical chaos three decades ago, it had really done a beating on my mind.
Cults tend to do that.
Ditto
Schaeffer's "Frank" honesty is so raw it almost hurts.
I just got away from dating an evangelical - your videos are VERY helpful! His 'faith' was not Christian, and he used it for his own personal gain. Very dark. I am a Christian... but not like that!!!! Yikes!
Rebecca O'Sullivan good for you😊
@Gregory Jenkins If I may reply...Love is Sacrifice. Not eros love or self-serving love but a deeper love that almost hurts. We use stories to make our lives have meaning and deeper understanding. The story of an all-powerful creator becoming an ape and dying for his creation is a fascinating story to me. Parts of this story are backed by historical documents but for me, the understanding comes through considering God and stepping out in faith. Faith to me is like science. It starts out as multiple tests, but as the journey continues the walk deeps and God develops evidence and revelation for your faith. I may be romantically self-deluding but learning to live with less so I can give more and loving people who are unlovable yet needing grace and mercy points me back to that example of a God dying on a cross for some filthy apes. Thanks for letting me share and definitely no judgment for any counter thoughts.
They are not Christians, they are religious and lost.
@@BrianLindahl - Striving to be good and self-sacrificing for the benefit of your fellow humans and the good of humanity is a wonderful thing to do, but you don't need any "God" to do that or to make it good or worthwhile. In fact, introducing a "God" into that equation unnecessarily obfuscates the reasons for doing it and falsely supports the idea that humans are fundamentally flawed and cannot do anything good out of their own motivation. If a "God" metaphor helps you to remain humble, then I say whatever works for you, but the problem with so many of these "God" metaphors (Christianity, Islam, Hindu, insert-cult-here, etc.) is that they create oppressive "join-us-or-die" narratives that in fact, historically speaking, do result in the exportation of wholesale oppression and death in real life. Your story is very personal and idealistic, but religions are invasive and predatory.
@@spongebrainsqueezepants7175 I totally agree with you... Also love the name and "MeSpongeBobSquarePants"... Religions are pretty deadly and if I were to surmise not all to productive for humans to partake in. From my scarcely bare inept, knowledge of AA and from a movie I watched starring Ben Kingsley, people tend to drift toward finding something of a higher power, maybe a tradition or a ceremony or something that helps define them and ground them. In the movie, Kingsley's higher power was a Bridge. In the end, as you already stated, if something humbles one and makes them a better human being then all the better. Thanks for the feedback! I really enjoyed your insights.
I like this guy. Very straight forward thinker.
Thanks for having him on, I can't wait to read his book.
Straight forward!!
cm cmancuso717 you should be concerned
@@cmcm1908 How on earth can you accuse this man of being "outrageous"? I can't fathom what you mean. It must be the opposite of what he is.
Frank's most important point, perhaps, was at 22:00: "Dealing with my own little grandchildren, there's nothing these kids could ever do to me, get my name wrong or birthday or believe the wrong thing or think I have six arms, that's going to make me burn them forever." Well said, good interview.
+Adam WW But if they demanded to never see their grandpa Frank again, he might let them. And if the lack of his presence was horrible, so what, they always had the ability to choose to stay with their grandpa.
If every time they went to grandpa Frank's house they attacked his other guests, and set his house on fire, he might just ban them from coming to his house. Grandpa Frank might say you've got to choose to live by my rules in my house.
Frank gives us a childish argument as it is a dis-analogy. God may have the attribute of love but he also has the attribute of justice. While we have some idea what that looks like on an earthly level, on an eternal level, God's requirement for righteousness is not intuitive. Nor his justice.
Frank misrepresents the scriptures here. The NT represents God humbling himself and taking the form of a servant Jesus and dying on the cross in our place. It may be true, it may be false. If true, God has gone a lot further than grandpa Frank suggests.
+Uber “Genius” Genie
Hey Brother, I appreciate your comment and your ability to lead with a pretty affable tone. I understand how much these topics mean to people, and despite that there are several different angles to approach this type of discussion from, it’s vitally important to keep it friendly,
so thank you for that, and I hope we can keep each other in friendliness-check if and as our conversation progresses :)
My first point to your first analogy would be that, to demand to never see someone again, necessitates that person having been seen to begin with.
So while this analogy may yet be useful for someone
like Moses who has ‘seen’ God, or even perhaps like Frank, or someone who was a real believer and had ‘seen’ God in some spiritual/emotional sense, it does not
work for those who have never seen or heard of Yaweh. So this is a bit of a dis-analogy here unless you believe that All people Always see God and thus anyone who does not believe in God has in fact rejected him and what they have seen. We see this can’t be true though as almost all children, tribes, and various peoples of the world never know the God of the ancient Israelites,
Yaweh, or his fleshly incarnation, Jesus of Nazareth, unless this information is disclosed to them. Most Christians agree on this point which is why
proselytizing the Bible is vitally important to them - without seeing or hearing God’s word people are left in the dark, unable to see or know the truth. (Even if you cite Romans 1:20 as a counter, all Christians already make exceptions to this verse, for example for children and youth, mentally slow individuals, etc.)
Now you seem to make two different arguments.
First, that if one chooses not to see (believe in?) God, then ‘so what’ if the alternative is horrible - it’s their choice. That sounds more like torture by default; there were only two options, you chose on your own accord the more painful option, so tough luck kid.
That’s different than the second point you
make, about God reeking punishment on individuals who burned his house down and killed his guests - That is more pragmatic and/or a form of torture for the purpose of retribution or justice.
Now here you say God’s eternal justice is not
intuitive. Yet historically it would seem that God’s justice is really quite intuitive to us. As humanity we have for the larger part of our history tortured, beaten, killed, and sought retribution through many forms of painful, agonizing, violent punishments. It is only recently that groups such as the UN have gone against our eye-for-an-eye intuitive sense of justice to say things like torture
is fundamentally unjust, as well as capital punishment, or cutting thieves hands off for that matter. What was once intuitive, and happily aligned itself quite well with the God of the Israelites’ mandated justice, is only now in the
better part of this century being called into question.
Your final point is that God has gone much further by sending himself down in human form to die on the cross for us. Yet it seems you also hold a perspective that believes in eternal torture as the inevitable and just fate for all mankind without Jesus. In this case, without giving
us the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, God would have effectively created beings with the sole fate and for the sole purpose of being tortured eternally, without the slightest hope or opportunity of escape. Such a situation, in which God never offers us Jesus, would truly render him an utterly disgusting, sadistic, omnipotent torture-bot. Yet, thank God for Jesus? Many liberal Christians, agnostics, atheists, and indeed any non-fundamentalists, often raise the argument that God would be sadistic for
ever allowing a torture chamber to exists for the beings he loves so much and created, when he is all powerful and all-present, and thus could conceivably contrive a less gruesome outcome for non-believers. Yet this is at least in some thin way attackable, when you consider that God provided a sacrificial scapegoat for that which might condemn us to the gas chamber (sin). And so it
becomes our choice to go to hell. (irrespective of not having a choice to be born to being with.) However, without that sacrificial lamb, Jesus - without the opportunity to have our sins cleansed by Christ - all of life becomes a short and disgusting exercise in futility, while we await our horrendous, morbid, unjustified and inescapable fate of endless torture. And so without
taking too much away from the idea of God or your beliefs, I hope, given the entire premise of Christianity and original sin, Jesus really HAS to exist in order for God not to be a cruel sadistic freak. So you may consider it a ‘gift’ but it’s the very minimum that he is obliged to offer us to even begin to satisfy his self-proclaimed qualities of unending love and mercy.
So you can praise God for giving us the gift
of Jesus, but just know, really,...what else was he going to do? Allow little human babies to be born into sin by no fault of their own, die in infancy or adulthood of influenza, small pox, tsunamis, or some other hellish device he
allows to exist, all the while with no chance of escaping a fateful consignment to a place of eternal torture? That would obviously be the definition of sadism.
I know there are several points here, and theology is always fascinating and deep, so Ilook forward to hearing your responses man. I truly hope I did not offend you. I have every intention of having a productive and peaceful discussion here on this platform of UA-cam that can so quickly become a place for rancid personal attacks. Much love and peace.
+Uber “Genius” Genie Hahahaha.. A Christian claiming another person presents childish arguments is laughable. An adult who believes in absurd fairy tales is childish. You describe your fictional god as loving, yet that supposed love is conditional based upon worship. Biblical texts show that your god was obviously created in man's image not the other way around. His actions according to the bible are vain, vindictive and jealous. According to biblical texts, your god not only condones theft, kidnapping, slavery, rape, murder, and even genocide. he actually commanded those actions. Claiming some moral superiority of Christianity is also laughable.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I am an atheist. My morals are based on intelligent thought, logic, empathy and an adherence to justice and equality. Christian morals are based on reward and punishment, Heaven and Hell. It would seem that my morals are superior to Christian morals in that they don't require an overseer who bribes or threatens me to be a good person."
-Uncle Matt
+Adam WW So much typing. So many errors.
I do believe that people can reach such a level of depravity that they shut off any sense of empathy, regret, repentence and sorrow. So given a hundred years or ten thousand or forever, such people would continue with evil doing. Hell is for people who choose to act worse than demons. We need to know there is a hell, so we feel there is a sense of justice as much as we know God is Love. In that Justice, God knows who sold out their souls with or without Jesus Christ as Saviour.
"Nothing destroys faith quicker than religious stardom" ........ interesting
"let's stop thinking of a Creator who is stupider than we are"
Thanks Frank,
Fellow survivor of the Christian Right, I appreciate your stories of your path toward a greater understanding of yourself and your spirituality and that you survived with your family intact. Thanks for your honesty and willingness to be "out there". Cheers :)
What about your salvation and the day of judgement? On the Day of Judgement you will be judged based on what you did about Jesus. How good a person means nothing. Every human is a sinner in front of a sinless God. Anyone who claims to be good is a liar. So what did you do about Jesus? Remember, if you didn't choose to be with Jesus in this life, he isn't going to force you to be with him in the next.
@ Jesus Christ isn't going to force anyone to do anything because Jesus, God, Allah etc. don't exist. I believe in the Constitution and Freedom of Religion so you can believe and practice as you like but I'm an atheist who needs proof or scientific evidence of God's existence.
@ - "On the Day of Judgement you will be judged based on what you did about Jesus. How good a person means nothing. Every human is a sinner in front of a sinless God."
its not clear to me why that would be the case?
in the 1970s, when pastors were asked what is the fate of babies who die under the age of 2, they usually would reply that children who die in say car accidents or various accidents might go to heaven or they might go to something they called "limbo"
limbo was apparently a state of existence that had a sort of neutral quality to it
i find the response kind of silly because how would the pastors know the answer to such a question? :)
however, in their replies was a hint of recognition that human destinies varied wildly over a vast spectrum, and it would be difficult to collapse all of those destinies into either heaven or hell. thus there were speculations that realms other than heaven or hell existed. some of their names were "Limbo", "Arcadia", and various others i cannot recall at the moment
i think similar questions apply to native americans and aboriginal indians. suppose a person is a member of a tribe in the Amazon rain forest. there is a good chance that they will live out their entire lives having never heard of Jesus, because their society is cutoff from the wider world. they live in isolated forests.
why would such indians go to a hell simply for having never heard of Jesus?
does that not strike you as a bit absurd? :)
might they not instead end up in "Junglevania", some kind of jungle kingdom in the after-life?
@@moegreen3870 Put your trust in Jesus and you can stop having self righteous conversations with your self. You will have to admit you're a sinner and do lotswrong, though. Heaven is for baddies like you and me.
@ - i don't disagree with you that humans can go very far astray and very deep into sinful behaviour.
one merely needs to glance at newspaper headlines to see that
but do you not have a feeling of profound absurdity in thinking that children who die by accidents, such as car accidents, plane crashes, etc... that those children are in danger of hell if they didn't hear of Jesus yet?
because how is it possible for a one year old or a two year old who cant even process English words yet to understand or "hear of Jesus"?
to me that seems very absurd. because while children might not qualify as "utterly perfect", why would they be in danger of going to hell?
and what of children from indian tribes that have never heard of Jesus. they are in danger of going to hell if they die young?
to me that sounds quite ridiculous :)
why would God be sending innocent children to hell?
in the 1970s the way pastors got around that absurd idea was to say that such children instead went to "Limbo" and so forth
I, too, am a preacher's kid, the only son of six kids; my dad died a few years ago and my mom last year. Finally I feel free to be myself, knowing I won't hurt them .. I'm poor, but happy. I am content not knowing, embracing the mystery and dumping all dogmatism in the dumpster. I've followed you for years, Frank, and you've always been more than an inspiration to me. You've made me feel like I'm not the only one in this odd but comfortable boat. Thank you.
What a unique perspective this guy has, great interview.
uranomichiaruki1 With respect his perspective is not unique. His rescue from institutionalized insanity ( the purpose of which is control) is unfortunately rare in the USA (see the last 4 years of your government and the massive vote number for a psychopath) but his perspective on life is common in non-insane societies.
Let's start with my philosophy: I am an atheist. I am confident there is no evidence for a god or any type of higher power. However, I must say Frank Schaeffer struck me as a unique individual; someone with the ability to step back from his culture and critically examine it; someone with the honesty to see outside the culture he had been marinating in for much of this life. Very few people possess that level of courage. Good luck to you! I'm buying your book; not to be converted, but just on the chance I can learn something more about life and myself.
You are a breath of fresh air! Thank you.
Financial gain, privilege, and power are key elements in these movements.
But true Christianity is salvation for those accept Jesus as their savior. It is the ultimate investment in the future. The bay off is worth every lottery ever run totalled together and then some.
Perversion knows no barriers. Absolute power is very cult MINDED no different than Jim Jones or Sun Yung Moon.
Religious stardom. Know who the first Religious star was? The same serpent that now hates man and roams the Earth seeking whom he may devour. And he's not a character on TV: Lucifer
I love Frank Schaeffer!!!! Intelligent, honest and brave. Thank you!!
Denny DeGorio A
This man is wise. The people harping about his book cover clearly didn't get it. It's a paradox. Isn't that what we live in anyways?
Wise!
+Anna Bell I get that he is doing what publishers like and coming up with a provocative title, but I admit I do find it confusing. Im not about to criticize but it would have been nice to hear him unpack his thoughts regarding that. He kind of seems to side-step the question posed to him about this.
His book is basicly about life. It's about what is real. It's about _being_ real.
That's what ideologies on either side don't get. Dawkin.Atheists and Evangelists have one thing in common: They are both Metaphysics driven by a collective "We are always right!" narcissism. We can call all forms of certainty-driven Ideologies as *Metanarcissism.*
🖒 Exactly, This Guy Gets It! 👏😊
I J LOL "Really wise?" He started by creating a false analogy and sweeping generalization followed by mass appeals to snobbery. He gives no reason in support of his view that Evangelism is false. He gives no reason to believe that Christianity as represented in the Bible is false, he gives no ground for why his version of humanism is any less self-serving and meaningless than the Enlightenment, or Existentialism, or Postmodernism were. He has no answers available to him for any of the great questions in life such as where we came from, how should we live, how do we relate to God if God exists and if God doesn't exist in the way the Bible conceives of him then where do we get evil?
Please gives us some insight into why you would possibly consider those things above "Wise?"
My parents created their own sect and had a Demonic deliverence ministry. It was crazy to me. They thought almost everyone had demons and I did witness demons come out of people so I reallly was scared of the devil. I was also afraid of God because if you made a wrong move he would punish you. My mom was extremely verbally abusive with Bible thumping scriptures of condemnation. I have been forever affected because of my sensitive nature. My brain waves changed forever and am forever going to battle depression. But my medications help me immensely. And I thank God for Psychiatrists who prescribe it. It saved my life. I am more at peace in my life now and have found more freedom of thought.
Interesting point about your sensitivity. Children are individuals and some simply are more sensitive than others. If you have the misfortune to be born into a stressful, even abusive household philosophy of any kind, it can make life different for you than for others who can casually shake it off. Then the work begins of making ourselves okay. It's why I took a different spiritual path. One that allows for us to be individual.
Francis Schaeffer had a significant career. Really, the guy was a rock star in Protestant theology. Regardless of what you believe, it's pretty wild to be interviewing his son!
That was a terrific interview with a fascinating guest.
I think that what sends people seeking the certainty of fundamentalist religion is when sudden trauma or loss makes people desperate to cling to something. That's when they may either fall in love or find religion. Teenagehood when hormones create a shocking change of outlook can be a time when people fall in love or find religion but also a death in the family or a sudden change e.g. a loss of a job, can have the same effect.
I'm so glad I came across this. I grew up with Francis Schaeffer books on my shelf, but also having gone through the same kinds of experiences that Frank describes here. This is SO refreshing.
Let's not forget that it was the "Religious" leaders that arrested Jesus and demanded that he be crucified by the Government.
Good point!
I think the thing that was appealing about fundamentalism was that it made you a member of the sanctioned by God club. The rules were strong and sure. You knew who the "right" people were and you knew who the sinners were. And if you learned to do the patter, (God told me [then quote what you've heard]. God wants me to. . . God doesn't like it when we. . . God wants us to hear this. . . The Lord spoke to me. . ) then you were definitely on God's "approved" list, a member of the Christian "In" club. It was great to feel you were sponsored, approved, the legitimate heir to all things good, as long as you didn't break those fundamental rules.
" Let's stop thinking about a creator that's stupider than we are!"
No wiser words have ever been spoken.
Frank Schaeffer is a beautiful human-being.
Beautiful!
Yes. Whereas new atheists and evangelicals are only talking about who should have the most power - who is "superior" (a term we hear in fascism), Frank is talking about life. About reality. About everyday experience with neighbors getting along. About women and children. About family.
Everything that ideologies hardly ever speak about.
I loved his dad back in the day but more glad I also saw the light and escaped from fundamentalism.
Human beings are learning to say “I don’t know” in a very slow, painful and humbling way. At the end of the show, we’ll all say with a big liberating smile: I DON'T KNOW, AND IT'S OK! And then it will be the first step of maturity done by mankind and we'll be in a new stage of human awareness: the stage in which we all understand the very first lesson: we know nothing.
Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and even the broadly beloved, James Dobson and the iconic Billy Graham, do not reflect biblical, historic Christianity. They are unfortunately the face of the "Evangelicalism" (as the term is used today), but that is a far cry from historic, biblical Christianity.
You mean the Jewish splinter group, prior to Paul's conversion & recruitment?
That's the politically correct approach. I would say they're a bunch of turds who have nothing to do with God or Jesus.
👍
how to stop? start living like jesus.
@@cmcm1908 your nation is falling apart because to much people treath trump as a God.
@@w.callens1629 trump is a dictator. i have been saying this for a long time. if he gets pres in 2020 he will be a full blown dictator like his friend putin & kim, who by the way are playing him for a fool. putin luck out getting trump. he had a vendetta against hillary & wanted to keep her from being elected. well he did & got trump. trump will never admit he did not get him self elected because he is narcissist. narcissist are not nice people & can be dangerous. they expected him to go to texas & have empathy for the people who were shot. he is a sociopath & is not cable of feeling empathy & another reason to think he is dangerous. look what he is doing to the kurds. they were our allies & even the women came out with the men to fight with our soldier againt isis. but hey trump said he got rid of isis all by him self. isis men got out so now more isis? he destroys ever thing he touches. he has another year & look at all he could do in one year. he wont testify or he wont let any one else testify so how can we accomplish any thing? he will not be easy to get out & when cohen testify before congress he said it would not be a good transition. i hope one day when i turn on the t v they say trump is gone. wishful thinking.
Democrats are nasty
VERY interesting. Wish the interview was longer so they could just let him talk more. Many parallels with my own life. Amazing. Funny that.
I looked up Creflo Dollar in Wikipedia. Then I remembered him from before as the church of the entrepreneur how God wants you to make money and stuff.
It bothers me that its always the poorest of the poor who send money to these guys and it seems to get worse each year beginning with the advent of the radio when these pastors could reach and collect money from larger and larger audiences. Preachers found how much money could be had during the dirty thirties when people were so absolutely desperate.
I have studied religion all my life - every group I can find. I started doing that when I was a kid because I thought my inability to believe was something wrong with me. There isn't. But, with modern MRIs and stuff physiologists have discovered that those who have the most vivid religious experiences have temporal lobe epilepsy. Religion is actually located in the temporal area of the brain close to the hearing centres. Richard Dawkins explains the evolutionary advantage of belief. And while the ability to believe in stuff that does not exist may have meant survival in the jungle in caveman days, in the modern world it may mean the deaths of us all.
Interestingly, I was writing this anti-utopian novel about religious belief in which I speculated that religious belief may cause physical harm to the growth and development of child's brain, I have recently come across, in searches through religious internet sites, that this is actually an area of study.
Very interesting. I think I need to friend you on facebook so I don't have to keep jumping back to youtube for conversation.
I studied the Siege of Munster when I was doing history in University.
In my novel I pay tribute to George Orwell. I think our society needs journalists like him more than ever in today's world.
My novel is called ISIS future 2051. It is an extrapolation of ISIS goals of world wide Caliphate, and although we know that this is unlikely to occur the extrapolation into the future makes criticism of extremely touchy subjects easier.
He did an hour long interview I just recently watched
Great interview, David. Looking forward to reading Frank Schaeffer's book.
Great!
Didn't know you interviewed this guy. Just discovering it!
I left fundamentalist Christianity 5 years ago now. Hence why my youtube name is Mr Happy 😊 . The cult I left made me miserable, incapable of rational thought, unable to accept other humans even Christians as true belivers. I'm now free and happy to think, go where I want. I've no enemies now. More accepting and at peace. Btw the cult I was in was the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster.
Narcissists abusing faith = Evangelicals
I like this guy. He speaks my mind.
Frank came across to me as very refreshing, he thinks as I do. Thanks for having him on.
My life wasn't the same as Frank Schaeffer's but he gives many of the same reasons why I am no longer an evangelical Christian.
Thank you for the breath of fresh air.
Wow! One of your best interview subjects ever. Sure would be nice if a lot of the people who will never see it could see it.
My thoughts also.
Wow!
For me, one of the most brutally ridiculous paradoxes in life is this belief people have about an all-powerful, all-present Being, creator and ruler of *THE UNIVERSE*, but at the same time, people want this entity to be _understandable_ and within *our* grasp of reality.
I think that it would be easier to teach many-variables integrals to my dog, than me being able to understand "God" or his "work".
#agnostic #believe
xithappens What religion teaches that God is within our grasp of understanding?
"My mom and dad were better than their ideology."
What a nice thing to say about your parents.
Frank Schaeffer is the best writer - in the sense that he writes elegantly and precisely far above the literary quality of anything you are likely to pick up in this section of the bookstore or the Library of Congress. Of course, on top of skill he was given a unique window on the world of Fundamentalism.
"Where ever they started out these guys were running empires."
"Certainty addiction..." is an example of what I said above.
What I have called "the crack of conviction..."
For all the similarities with Evangelicals, remember FS was raised in Switzerland not in America which makes a significant difference. There was the chasm of his lack of ignorance that he could never bridge with American Evangelicals.
"Ok... I'm still a schmuck but at least it was me..."
Frank Schaeffer seems driven by demons to become an honest man.
These are just random notes but it is so entertaining to hear someone -‚
anyone - honestly relate the complexity of the major transitions they have made n their life with clear understanding of the before & after separation yet without the the need to gratuitously put down their past. This is a delight... Thank you both...jt
ua-cam.com/video/e_fNTRWsKUY/v-deo.html
"Lets stop thinking of a Creator who is stupider than us." Cheers to that.
+Tangerine Farmer
:(
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. Romans 1, 25
Tangerine Farmer "Let's stop thinking," is Frank's method. No modifiers necessary.
The solution to christian fundamentalism is not in relativism/liberalism, but in acquiring deep HUMILITY....that's the reason why I'm a member of the orthodox church like Frank Schaeffer
+lessthandust
I totally agree
The is no opposition between relativism and humility.
+contactkeithstack No opposition, but the statement is still true. There's no opposition between an knife and a sword, but a sword would be a better tool than a knife if you were going into a sword fight. (man, and you almost had em, huh....)
humility is more an attitude of heart. On the contrary relativism is only an attitude of our anayltic mind, has nothing common with our heart.
lessthandust What is it that relativism uses as its compass? That is to say, relative to "what"?
Great interview. Thanks for having Frank.
There are only three lies (intentonal mistranslations) in the first two verses of Genesis. Recommend "Hebrew Mythology" by Milton Woolley.
The American Evangelical movement is a scary one.
Excellent insight and perspective applied to social issues are always worth reviewing. Thanks, David and Frank for sharing this dialogue.
THAT was a great interview. What an interesting and honest man.
Evangelicals are noted for what they hate instead of what they love ...they never stop talking about everything they hate.
Great interview! Thank you!
"The idiots have taken over the asylum." sums it up right there.
Frank, I haven't read your book, but I come from the same background. Even though I'm like four decades younger than you. I grew up in rural Georgia. I was the black sheep. I had my rebellious stage that ended up with our eventual distancing and separation. I did not know why my parents acted as the voice of reason and didn't have a problem with others reinterpreting their words, and yes, you would ask them a remote theological question, you'll get textbook basic answers. I attended a Catholic School from fifth grade until eighth grade. I had to read the entirety of the Bible - uncut and uncensored. At the time, I was surprised that all this "dirt" can come from something marketed as so pure. I don't necessarily have a problem with certain religious texts, I know they're sacred and should stay that way. The Evangelical Right especially takes everything at its most earnest and most literal (no entendre or second definition). I preferred a loving God, not one that condemns random people to eternal damnation and is very thin-skinned and insecure, which heightens the aggression and bitter vengefulness. The same goes with the Qu'ran, how many groups with a classist/racist/homophobic agenda spring up from religion and what happens when you dedicate your whole life into it until the point you're unable to breathe. These groups commit mass genocide, bombings, and lynchings, holding a demographic they deem unholy or inherently evil, hostage all for the sake of "God telling them to do it", not them acting impulsively on their biased, bigoted, ill-gotten gains. I had my gay friends, Muslim and Jewish friends, and was open to higher learning by studying a religion of another person. I was shut out immediately for being friendly towards people who consider themselves other than "Christian", "Conservative-leaning" and dare I say, "White". My folks worshipped figures such as Billy Graham, Ronald Reagan (who IS more pragmatic than 100% fundamentalist, contrary to popular belief), Pat Boone, and Jerry Falwell, saying that "these are the people I aspire to be or base the majority of my life upon" or "as close to perfect a person can ever achieve." Completely ignoring the greed and materialism that stink up their reputation. In the 80's, my grandparents were massively in debt, and they blamed it on themselves, not the massive tax cut, anonymous labor union shutdowns, or the widening gap between rich and working class, or even over-dedication to these money-hungry individuals.
Fascinating story. Thanks so much for sharing all the details and being so honest, that must have been hard to write.
I love me some Frank Schaeffer...
Guess he won't be appearing on the "700 Club" any time soon... or Fox News for that matter.
great interview now i want to buy the book
Frank Schaeffer - What a refreshingly honest interview!
"God" is nothing more than Nature.
Nothing exploded and created all the energy, matter, time and space of the Universe. Hey Gerald, why aren't you scared nothing is going to explode again destroying this finely balanced Universe? You need to think for yourself !!! Where did the DNA code come from? You make big statements about the Universe. Let's hear your explanation !!!
@
I could worry about a giant comet hitting the earth. But then again, this might be a good thing for it would end the religious shit.
Actually "God" is nothing more than a fiction propagated by societal indoctrination.
@Edward Verda
The Egyptian god Ra started thing going by masturbating. The seed from his right testicle became Shu (Air) and the seed from his left testicle became Tefnut (Moisture)
No, God is a Spirit .
I am a person, who needs a God who understands that I do not believe in him.
Margrit Kaminsky First of all God understands all things and if you do not believe in him that is your choice but there are consequences to unbelief. Try reading John 3:16-21. God will not force no one to repent of their sin and trust in His one and only Son Jesus Christ. You do have a right to choose to believe or not believe. So, you don’t need God to understand anything, He is all knowing dear one.
Be ‘LIE’ f... ; )
interesting interview, actually sat through the whole thing. Pretty much confirms what most people would guess about those mega churches and pastors.
***** agreed
+mangaas Hi Mangaas. Not sure how this could confirm ideas about mega church pastors since Frankies' dad never was one. Frances was a very kind and loving person who also had a brain. He also was thoroughly familiar with opposing viewpoints, and he would interact with those who held them. with great respect. I find fewer people today either on the faith side or the doubt side who will do that. Perhaps you would find the time to read him. Cheers!Chris
+mangaas The more religious a person professes to be, the less educated, less intelligent and even less civil they are. In other words, if you seek the stupid, the mean spirited, the profane and the pathetic, you will be much more successful in finding these people among the "Godly". I don't believe in God. This fact seems to be a crime in your circles. I am very intelligent, very educated, and also a very productive, kind, generous and loving human being. For some reason all of this doesn't sit well with...religious people. Atheists are superior human beings. Is THAT what upsets you so much?
+schlummieleinchen1 Francis Shaeffer proved it was possible to be intelligent, cultured, conservative and religious. Evangelical Christianity can dumb you down but many intelligent young people are attracted to it. What I have found amongst the New Atheist movement is that they are extremely left brained. Very ISTJ.
+lemsip Preach to atheists at your own risk. You only make yourself look and sound like the fool you are. I merely gave you the option to avoid ridicule by not being so openly ridiculous. Your faith is utterly ridiculous to us atheists. If you refuse to acknowledge this, you are proving my point. Religion is bull shit, and you're pretending it's chocolate mousse. Eat up, sweetheart, more for you!
Marlene Winell's book "Leaving the Fold" was recommended to me by my best friend from Liberty. I'll have to check out Franky's works. I was at Liberty in the early 80's and was brought up in Fundamentalism. I remember him and his father. Honestly, I could never figure out then how anyone who knew how to think could even begin to want to align that ability with this religion. I was 'forced' to go there; packed up and dropped off and I escaped. And in a way, I will always be escaping.
"Let's stop thinking of a creator that's stupider than we are". Love it. Eternal damnation really is stupid. If our God is down for that, I'm smarter than he is.
Very interesting interview with an amazing person, thanks guys!
Great interview Pakman! You keep raising the bar. Pakman, you need a time-slot around 7pm every Sunday on MSM. I'd dump 60 Minutes to watch you.
Great!
Frank gave up on Christ because he didn't like the people who were part of the American Evangelical community. I don't blame him, I wouldn't be a Christian if I followed many leaders of the American Evangelical community. Personally, I believe that American Evangelicalism (as it is represented by many of its leaders and their followers) is giving Christ a bad name. However, a true Christian is one who has questioned whether or not Jesus is who he said he is, and have truly had a life changing personal experience with the living Christ. Once that happens, they won't look like the the Christians Frank has so aptly described. Frank experienced a religion, but true Christianity is not a religion, it is a personal relationship with Christ. I know, becasue I have experienced it and continue to do so.
Might I add that after having our lives changed by the personal relationship with Christ that we have, it's supposed to bleed out into other areas of our lives... so personally think it shouldn't stop there.
I agree totally.
+Dan Brown I wouldn't even categorize Evangelicals as Christians. They are so far from what Christian belief should be. They only care about spewing hate on everybody that disagrees with them.
It feels personal until you get hit where it hurts. Then it doesn't make sense, and then it gets twisted into some kind of lesson to teach us patience, love, etc. Whatever you want to fill it in with. You are clearly making an excuse to fit your paradigm as to why he didn't have the same experience as you, because you are convinced your way is right and can't fathom why anyone wouldn't find the same thing. We say these things to make ourselves feel more comfortable with what we don't understand. And then write off the experience to ease the discomfort. I used to think the same things about people, and felt so fortunate to know that I had a personal relationship with jesus. I worked as a hospice nurse, and although I had a lot of wonderful growth during this time, I had a lot of challenges to my faith. I saw the random indiscriminate suffering of the people. The holy words don't mean much when you're dying alone. All that matters is action, love, and physical presence. It becomes difficult to even believe jesus is with you when in your darkest hour you feel abandoned. Ask the parents of the 4 yo girl who they watch slowly deteriorate from the brain tumor, paralyzed down one side of her body and no longer able to speak, only able to look you in the eyes with fear. I go to help her and find her on her bedroom floor after seizing and vomiting all over herself while her older brother watches helplessly. Having to load her little body up with medications so she can feel some comfort, begging god to heal her along with her parents who are asking God to heal her as well as they try to understand why. So let's stop talking about a personal jesus bud. You are just trying to reassure yourself to avoid personal suffering as much as possible.
He gave up on Christ because he saw the whole thing was a farce. Stop making excuses
I left evangelical Christianity 16 years ago after being entrenched and brainwashed for 30years. So grateful that God took me out of it and I am now apart of an independent spiritual network
Once again David excellent interview, top quality 10/10.
I came from the fundamentalist evangelical background, Frank Schaeffer's writing have been very helpful, he explains my experience within the evangelical church. His insights into the Republican Party and the evangelical church are very important for any Christian living in North America. The GOP and the evangelical church are a disaster.
Love you Frank for being true to yourself, we all have free will to beat our own drum as long as it’s based on unconditional love and respect for each other’s opinions and beliefs everybody walks their own path ♥️
Excellent interview David.
Frank said his father was better than the theology early in the conversation and gave examples at the end of why the theology is inhumane. Good interview, thanks
That was a good interview, i enjoyed listening.
Very interesting interview dudes.
I have had some great conversations with Frank. He had a unique view from the inside the fundamentalist empires.
"The Christian of tomorrow will be a mystic, or not a Christian at all."
-- Karl Rahner
How about "biblical" ??
@@bigtobacco1098
The point of the statement is that Christianity will evolve into something that transcends canonical prescriptions such as the Bible. This view has three merits:
1. It's consistent with how Jesus' desciples may have been "Christians" without "Christianity of the Christian bible" created by the later generations.
2. It allows for the possibility of people exploring and achieving a more-sophisticated understanding or higher awareness of what Jesus was on to (the so-called "Christ consciousness"), through meditations, which by itself is empirical rather than scriptural.
3. It allows for the possibility of a community of spiritual people that is more conducive to peace by bypassing scriptural divisions.
@mirandansa 1... Jesus lived by the scripture, the old testament... even quoted them extensively
@@mirandansa 2... purely subjective...
@@mirandansa 3... goes against Jesus's own teaching
the last couple minutes of this interview are the best. good stuff.
Frak shaefer is a great writer of religious issues and insight into evangelical. Churches. He is a real decent human being. Also exposing the hypocricy of the fundamentalist world. He expose the wickedness of trump and his supporters.
That was fantastic David. I hope everyone can get connected enough to find their own way, and feel when something's not right. People like the ones who get caught up in this, to me, are the sweetest, kindest ones among us, and they are getting used for profit. It's hard to dislike them until they start spewing the hate they're taught to believe.
It's interesting to hear all this. I belonged to a Bible study back in the 70's. Even though we considered ourselves fundamentalists we also considered ourselves all-inclusive, meaning it didn't matter if you were gay, straight, black, white, rich or poor, God's plan of salvation was available to all. It was by faith alone and not of works. Most important of all, we were apolitical. Some of the books we were encouraged to read were the ones by Francis Schaeffer, because we felt his understanding of the Gospel was accurate. Today the word fundamentalism has a negative connotation for me, mostly because it has joined forces with the political right. People don't realize that the true message of the Gospel has been pushed aside and political activism has taken its place. Am I an atheist who believes in God? Perhaps I am. The other options that are out there these days just don't appeal to me.
Grew up in a talibaptist church and they were nuts. If the lord would just go ahead and take them away. They’re tired of waiting.
I'm watching this 5 years late, but I really liked it. You and Frank are two if my favorites!
This video needs to recirculate. If I tried, I’d lose a lot of people.
As an artist it's great to see Frank creating.
Fantastic talk and a topic and journey that I can very much relate to! Former Operation Rescuer here 🙋🏽♂️. I was influenced greatly by A Time For Anger as a young man. In a better place now - but Frank Shaffer provides a sense of validation to my own personal evolution. Thank you!
True Followers is Christ Take Care the Environment and Love All People,
10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 - You feel insulted and “dehumanized” when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” including women, children, and trees!
6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs - though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving.”
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to “prove” Christianity.
2 - You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
I attended Liberty when Frank and his mother and father spoke there...they were indeed venerated "popes" of the evangelical world. My journey with an exodus is similar to Franks...although it took me longer...I was in my 40's when I began to really think for my self....that brings me some sadness and yet better late that never right.
I've emailed Frank and bought a piece of his art...I really appreciate his honesty...so many stayed just for the money and career leaving took courage!
Good for you! JerryJr still fleecing the flock at Liberty!! Private planes, But Trump supporter, you know the pussygrabber Christian?? 😂
I know this is an old vid but I still need to comment-this guys views on religion is what many Christians here in the uk think, I'm an atheist myself but my mum is from the Scottish church and it's a whole lot different from American puritanical thought and evangelicalism. We have Catholics too (mostly in Glasgow) but in the main the uk as far as Christianity goes follows a similar line to this guy as far as I'm can tell. The reason this guy is "different" is because of the foundation of puritanical pilgrims who settled in America and that thought still filters down today
I disagree that he was raised a fundamentalist. Francis Schaeffer was definitely not a fundamentalist at least not in the modern American sense of the term, he did actually embrace label at one point in his life but what he meant by that was to hold to the fundamentals of the Christian Faith, nowhere near what we mean by fundamentalism today. A brilliant thinker through and through.
All I can say is Amen. I was once a Fundamental Christian but I have been set free, I still believe in God but am nauseated by the corrupt unholy thing the fundamental/Conservative thing that much of Christianity has become. Jesus would drive them out of the Temple.
Thanks for speaking truth about religious cults
Think for yourself , run things through your mind and determine issues for yourself.........Do not be a pawn , another vote or allow yourself to be manipulated shamed or confused. I am a christen minded man and like to conduct myself with certain christen values. I am not over the top or an out of control fanatic. Peace on earth good will towards man. ( all men )
Falwell Jr. Is just as bad as his dad!! Full of BS, fleecing the flock?? 😂😂😂
David Pakman Show - If you keep putting out interviews like these, I will have to keep on sharing them via Facebook and more. Great interview. Thanks.
There is a way that seems right to a man but in the end leads to destruction
Sure, like flip a coin.
I just stumbled into this interview. I have never heard of the man but believe me he knows of what he speaks. I was raised in a Southern Baptist Preachers home. I got to see what the doctrine does to many people. Many become hate driven know it all's who often, at least in the church, turn on themselves. Many of these churches split, vote their pastors out and spend time fighting and arguing over doctrine. Truly some of the most unhappy people you will ever meet. And of course that's not all of them but believe me I've seen them in real time and heard the stories from the inside. Personally I gave up on religion at a young age. I still played the part for a few years while living at home but I was never with it in my heart. I went 180 degrees out for years after leaving home, caused much misery to myself and family and ended up an alcoholic, dope fiend and eventually ended up in prison. And that was the good part (smile), prison. Prison was my University. I got to see reality. What, if I continued on my path, I would look like in 5, 10, 20 years and even more. The examples were all around me in living color. I was miserable and cried out every day for help. And guess what it came. And it came in the most amazing and unimagined way. This is getting too long so I'll conclude but I'll just say I came back to God but surprisingly not as a Christian. A pharmacists in prison turned me on to the Quran. I started reading the Quran in the prison library everyday after supper for 6 months. There, along with the teachings of WD Muhammad, I found the answer to all the religious questions that had troubled me throughout my earlier life. I made it folks. I'm now a good citizen and have been for 40 years. I have 3 lovely children/adults now and a beautiful, loving and gracious wife. Compared to my previous life I have a heaven on earth. Thanks for the post I was able to reflect on my many blessings. Peace.
What a lovely human being. I really did not expect to hear my own stumbling take on the understanding of reality to be reflected back to me in such an eloquent and compassionate way.
10:22 reminds me of the advice from Paul about being an overseer in the church:
"He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil."
An organization called "the clergy project" assists clergy who has woken up to find a way to transition to other professions and deal with the mental anguish of shunning by former friends and family.
Kind of describes myself in a way..
I cannot recommend Frank's book enough. Perfect insight into the Evangelical movement.
Thank you for all your work, Frank, for your courage.
Such a breath of fresh air. My history is just a tad bit different in that I was Bible beaten but just blew it off. It meant nothing to me one way or the other. Then after the fact I simply started asking questions not to any person, but let's just say for the purpose here. I guess introspective. I got definitive answers. That was 40+ years ago has made me who I am today, someone that likes himself. I just so appreciated the way he used the word empathy, just a point I cannot drive home to all of my "religious saved friends and family, biological that is." Dogmatically believing everything they've ever been told, with absolutely no concern for compassion, not being able to understand others are capable of feeling the same kind of joys and pains as they are. Dogmatic blind doctrine reigns supreme, and it's okay to hate others as long as they sin differently than you do. Thanks Dave an excellent interview.