8 years retired now, I spent many years initially in a somewhat gung-ho light-twin environment. I would not even begin to guess if or how many times I came close to a stupid mistake like this - I was young, indestructible and God's gift to aviation at that particular time. Oh, the EGO! I happened to mature in time to avoid this fate - probably by luck rather than common sense. That was acquired later, not to mention the discipline and training involved in the airline part of my career. CRM training (in part reviewing the stupid mistakes others had made) was a real eye-opener.
@@scsteinbrecher Me too. I used to do stupid stuff as a young pilot. I remember back in 1978 or 79 I had to fly a Bonanza from DuPage Co. (KDPA) to "O'Hare Intl. (ORD). We landed and dropped off a passenger. I was a part-time CFI for DuPage Aviation at the time, the largest dealer of Beechcraft airplanes in the mid-west for sales in those days. The airport (DPA) is unrecognizable to me now. There was a previously notorious snow storm a few days earlier and the snow banks were at least 10 ft. high along the taxi-ways. BTW, Chicago had two of its coldest winters in 1978 and 79. Anyway, as we lined up onto either rwy 28 L or 28C, I can't recall now, there was a 747 behind us and several other large jets behind him on the taxi-way in sequence for departure. Here we were piloting a puny brand new Bonanza F33 in sub-freezing temperatures on a very cold clear day ahead of a line of very large commercial airplanes. We were cool and all the other airline pilots knew it. We knew it as well. Trust me, any lightly loaded Bonanza (brand new) in sub-freezing temps can perform as if it were turbo-charged and with JATO rockets strapped to its side. As we were instructed to "taxi into position and hold" the tower wanted us to make a 270-degree right turn to avoid other traffic in the area. Tower: Bonanza 12345 can you make and immediate 270 degree right turn after take-off? " Me: "No problem"..... BTW there was another flight instructor sitting the the right seat, so we young guys were extra confident. Tower: "Bonanza 12345 cleared for take off, make an immediate right 270 degree turn after take-off". Me: Roger, make immediate right 270 after take-off. Of course, we mid-20-something-year-old hot shots had to show the 747 captains how to "really" fly an airplane. After take-off clearance, we pushed in full throttle. The Bonanza seemed to lift off in only a few hundred feet due to temperatures being so very cold. After we broke ground, I stayed in the ground effect to build up speed. Then I raised the landing gear at the same time making a 45 degree climbing right banking turn. Those JATO rockets kept us climbing faster and faster. After we climbed to about a 1000 ft or so we rolled out on our destination heading. Suddenly we heard a radio call from one of the captains still on the taxiway who saw the entire event and said: "Give those guys a Kewpie doll". My buddy CFI in the right seat said: "we'll take it". That was back in the days when this stuff was still frowned upon, but yet quietly cheered behind the scenes. Yes I was a twenty-something-year-old "hotdog", but since those days I've become a very conservative pilot and would admonish any of my friends or other pilots from doing something like that today. ADSB back then was not even a dream. There were no recordings other than radar and voice tapes. No security cameras to record the event. However, I did comply with the tower's request to make a right climbing 270-degree turn as "soon as able". It's just that nobody expected an airshow at the time. I must admit, I felt like Bob Hoover that day, even though I would admonish anybody today for doing a similar thing. I had to tell this story before I go on to wherever the next world may be. Please give a "thumbs up" if you've read this story, even if you disagree with the content. I just want to see how many people may have learned something from it.
@@daffidavit The Blizzard of 1978, I was 11. my dad worked in the public schools and they were closed so he got to take home tons of milk in the little cartons that would have gone bad. crates of it.. my parents distributed most out to all the neighbors, many stores were closed or run out or without power. it was crazy.
@@dbspecials1200 Yes, I was a student at the time living in Carol Stream, Ill. I remember my car would not start up until the OAT was at least -11 degrees after the sun beat on the hood. As soon as I walked outside, all of the moisture in my nose instantly crystized into frost. It seem like our breath would freeze and fall to the ground. Glad I'm living in Texas now. Thanks for commenting. Stay well.
My Dad was a draftsman for Aero Commander in Bethany OK, from 63-72 when he passed away. In 66 He took me & my sister to check out the inner workings of the plant one evening getting to see the Jet Commander Arthur Godfrey had taken around the world setting many records. I miss you Dad !
I was an ATC at Shemya Air Station in Alaska and worked Arthur Godfrey do a refueling at Shemya. On contact they were low on fuel and asked for a rapid desent to a GCA ( PRESCION RADAR APPROACH) NO LEVEL OFFS TO SAVE FUEL. SLAM DUNK
A most unfortunate occurrence. Thankfully, he did not have a passenger onboard that last time when he made his fatal mistake. I'm sorry for his family's and friends' loss.
@@75Gear Well, I have both commercial pilot and ATC career background, retired from both and so I have no dog at stake in any fight. Do tell me about these “tell it like it is guys” who don’t also regularly get it wrong.
@75 Gear So in other words, you are telling us that you have never “hot-dogged” an airplane, demonstrating your flying skills even to yourself, let alone with ATC’s encouragement, and that even a good RC pilot would never do that? Really? How much do you know of human nature, and especially the nature of people who have the interest and drive to become pilots to begin with? Furthermore, if someone thinks that a more humble and cautioning reaction is appropriate instead of pretense and lambasting a dead man, this makes them a “company man” who isn’t saying what he really thinks? Sounds like you’ve got a whole lot of assumptions going on there. Juan’s comparison to the lack of disciplinary reins being pulled back on Bud Holland before he had the opportunity to crash a B-52 in Spokane was spot-on.
Another great job Juan! When you work as a pilot, the employer doesn’t pay you to “have fun” with his aircraft. Employers pay pilots to employ the aircraft to accomplish tasks. The old cliche that “you don’t own the aircraft, the taxpayers do” applies as it relates to employers. It’s everyone’s job to identify and report hotdog pilots and it’s not being a Karen. You might save the guy’s life!
I'm not a pilot and don't plan to be one, but I watch your videos for a couple of reasons. One is that I'm a long-time motorcyclist (since 1976). I don't have enough fingers to count the riding buddies of mine that aren't here because of the same mistakes that some pilots are guilty of. Appreciate the thoughtful analysis and breakdown you do on these terrible accidents, many of which could have been avoided.
This is my local airport. When the crash first happened I had just left the airport but those that were there said it was just as the report said. Really sad that hot dogging was encouraged by the tower. I'm sure there has been some advanced training for the controllers
I actually did an accelerated stall in a steep dive with Crazy Horse a few years ago, and that was a profound experience. We know it can happen, but to actually see it made a big impression.
It drives home the importance of training and knowledge. I know it’s only a glider but the simulated aero tow rope breaks I’ve had pulled in me in training have outweighed the “study” side of things. Have walked away from every lesson, check flight and solo with a greater understanding.
@@CFITOMAHAWK have had a good mix with the checks rides because of my breaks away. Just drives home to me that you can read/study all you want, nothing beats being in the cockpit. Love what it's doing to the old grey matter.
I did something similar in a Bonanza years ago. Steep turn right after takeoff. I felt a buffet and immediately unloaded the wing. It left enough of an impression that I never did that again! Lesson learned.
Fantastic old picture of yours, and very nice to hear you relate to this story with your first hand take of what it was to fly. Great explanation as usual. Cheers, from Argentina
It's always surprising to learn that accidents like this occur because the pilot didn't follow safe procedures during take off or landing. ATC should not have encouraged the cavalier attitude exhibited in the previous takeoffs. Very nice review as always Juan.
Two minutes and thirty nine seconds and I am hooked. Juan, you are. the. bomb. in an age of dying journalism. Pat yourself on the back because I am apparently unable to finish a sentence without forgetting how said sentence began. In my head. Mental. Peace out!
Risk assessment: 1. Frequency (how often do you do this?) 2. Probability (How likely is doing it going to result in an accident?) 3. Severity (What is the result of failure?) This is a perfect example of 1, 2, and 3 resulting in a fatality.
If he waited for altitude. He might have recovered. If he waited for speed, the risk would be reduced. If he took a gentle turn. He wouldn't have crashed. So he failed all of the basic safety checks. Do you have speed? Do you have altitude to trade for speed? Did you maneuver safely? Unfortunate loss of an excellent pilot due to overconfidence
@@thedukeofbork3147 overconfidence usually is rooted in the confidence in your abilities and familiarity with your plane. The problem is that it sneaks up on you and stabs you in the back. So we must all be careful and re-evaluate our actions before they punish us.
Thanks for the video. I remember this accident happening. I live in the area and worked as a forest firefighter for the MNR for 5 years. I knew some of the air attack officers that could have been in that plane that day and thought I may have lost someone I knew.
Juan all Air Tanker flying is now suspended in Oz, as you know we have had a C130 & Boeing 737 both crash and burn within a few years. This final report is worrying, a Cowboy pilot who is encouraged by the Control Tower to show off. As we all know Cowboys don't last long in the Wild Wild West. Yet what's unusual in the Military Cowboys are encouraged. Look at Hollywood films, lots of Cowboy flying in Top Gun. Never underestimate how a Cowboy can turn a wild ride into a death sentence.
As a former military pilot I can say I met very few "cowboy" types. There is a huge difference between high-risk flight operations and reckless behavior. If maneuvers are trained, briefed, and risk factors analyzed every time, risky maneuvers can be conducted safely. We always briefed our top 3 risk factors before every flight, and if there were no significant external threats we would typically discuss complacency as our top internal threat. I have seen more careless flight attitudes in civil aviation than I ever did on Active Duty in the military.
@@Ghost_Hybrid Sadly I seem to find too many military aircraft videos of fairly reckless flying. It's weird what happens when people turn into 'putting on a show' mode and a camera is involved.
He had to have another officer flying with him to keep him in check. The part of the story I don’t understand, (remembering from the video) he was on final to land but decided for a go around as there was an obstruction on the runway, was there an obstruction to avoid or was this action as part of the “showing off”?. Also from memory he realised he was going to track directly over an underground fuel bunker hence the evasive tight turn to avoid a ‘Courts Marshall’ offence.
@@iancurtis1152 It's worth reading the Air Force's investigation - lots of opportunities for improvement. The pilot flying with him was his CO, Lieutenant Colonel Mark C. McGeehan. McGeehan said if I can't ground this guy (which he apparently couldn't, since he was so idolized in the chain of command) he would not risk the life of someone else to fly with him, since he considered him so dangerous. The CO was a very courageous man, who gave his life to protect the others in his command from this dangerous pilot. It's a shame that he could not prevent the accident, but anyone who has flown knows that if there is someone in the cockpit that wants to do something, it's very hard to prevent it.
Thanks Juan. Great summary. I'd also like to compliment you on having great audio and diction on your channel. Some UA-camrs fall short of even mediocre, and it makes a video a pain to watch. I wonder where the breakdown in inspection/maintenance processes occurred relative to the frayed cable.
The report states that inspection of the cables is difficult because they are in an inaccessible area, and also states that the operating company changed its' maintenance procedures so that inspections must carried out using a boroscope.
Another great explanation of how not to impress others with your flying skills, not considering the risk vs. reward. You are Gods gift to the aviation community. From Orlando, Fl. MCO ✈️
I was boarding passengers bound for Thunderbay when news came that airport closed indefinitely. Had to deplane all and go home. Airport remained closed for a number of days stranding many. Eventually the shorter RW 12 was reopened and company authorized us to land a fully loaded Max there. For some reason the rumors we got there were that a catastrophic engine failure killed the pilot. Thank you for making it clear.
Aviation is blessed in that it has such transparency around incidents and safety culture ... there are other industries where the hot dog culture remains and is glorified.
I’m very interested in all things related to aviation, and the lessons in this video goes way outside aviation - it can (and should) be applied/thought of in many other areas of life where you engage in potentially dangerous activities. When you’re young, you usually don’t have a safety thinking at all, or very little, but with time and experience you usually/hopefully get it. The danger is, as Juan says here, that when one’s done things that are borderline dangerous several times with a good outcome, then regardless of age one may get the sense that it’ll work fine every time. I’m a person who’s been quite impulsive all my life, and it’s only the last few years I’ve acquired a habit of actually thinking through and taking safety precautions. I’m 50, so that’s quite late, dumb, but better late than never. Thanks Juan for each and every one of your exceptionally good videos.
Great job with this one as usual. But thank you for stressing the importance of us watching out for others as well as ourselves. Take care keep up the great work.
I did something similar in a Bonanza years ago. Steep turn right after takeoff. I felt a buffet and immediately unloaded the wing. It left enough of an impression that I never did that again! Lesson learned.
I was about 20 years old in a medium sized town or very small city when I first saw one of these Areo Commanders. It was parked near on tarmac near middle of the runway. Two men with trench coats walked up to the plane got in started it and pulled onto middle of runway and took off. As a younger person I was impressed but latter learned it was stupid, No walk around no pre flight no going to end of runway to have more room in case of a failure.
Another GREAT and honest review! Thank you. Juan, your safety reminders and candid input saves lives. Thank you for all the effort you put into your channel.
Great report. Tragic and completely avoidable. The TC-690 is my office during fire season in BC as an Air Attack Officer. This will be a valuable discussion point this spring. Multiple failures here. As the old saying goes something like this: “There are bold pilots, and there are old pilots, but there are no bold old pilots”.
@@airattack-aerialwildfireop1576 Yup AAO progession from a 337 to a 500 to now the 680 likely didn't help things either.One of the top two in that roll in the last 30 yrs in that outfit in terms of total missions.While not discussed there was little doubt fatigue played a role in this as everyone was crazy pushed that fire season
I grew up around airports. This showing off was the norm. I took my first ride at age 11with a hot dog pilot who lifted off, flew the length of the runway at less than 10 feet, they made a hard right 180 and flew back down the runway full throttle just off the deck and pulled a steep climb over the hangar. This was in 1965 at the South Columbus Airport. Many of the pilots in this group bought the farm showing off.
Around here the tower would have a phone number for you before you complete the 180. Pissing off the tower girl you fly out of routinely would be the worst possible juju. She knows you. Make their life easy when possible they are trying to do it for you
I worked at the Sussex, N. J. airport and took flying lessons there in 1959- 1961 helping rebuild 22 WWII piper cubs. Nobody ever did any stupid stunts that I saw or heard about, but there were plenty of small accidents or almost accidents.
I'd like to know what, if any, disciplinary actions were taken against the involved ATC parties who seemed to encourage this kind of behavior. As always, thanks much for sharing. Steve
I'm sure he was an excellent pilot and friend who was probably a little tired, without a passenger on this third flight and still had the banter with ATC in his mind. I don't fly at all. Don't know if the first sharp turn felt safe to him, maybe his passenger didn't enjoy it. So he gave it another go on this third run, maybe with changing conditions. Just an unfortunate decision that one time, if this can be the only cause. Too tight, too soon. My heart goes out to him. Thanks for his service to firefighting. My condolences to you and his family. RIP.
@@pomerau That was my concern as well. The pilot had executed the same maneuver twice before without issue, so what was different on the third flight? Less weight, pulling it a little hotter since he didn't have passenger to "worry" about, just enough change in metoc to nudge it past the "edge". Doesn't seem like NAV Canada answered the "What went wrong THIS time?"
As a Canadian Pilot; someone who used to work in Forestry and flew in small planes out of Thunder Bay and airports across Canada's North - I flew with pilots like this back in the late 80s early 90s. Back then (and perhaps now as well) the culture within these companies is one where you couldn't say anything about unsafe flying because you were then branded as a problem; not 'one of the guys'. It amazes me that this type of piloting is still accepted and in this case even encouraged by ATC. Digging to see if Nav Can implemented any sort of procedural change to deal with this, or if it was swept under the rug.
There are old people on the ground when these fly-boys decide to fk around and find out and they didn't buy any tickets to the air show. These pilots deserve what they get.
🙄 on the controller's incitement of more "show." Hot-dogging safely requires a high degree of awareness and clear, well-understood boundaries. As you said, the complacency from having done it any number of times before can lead you to believe you're not "on the edge" when you are just a step or two away from disaster. I was there for the aftermath of Holland's crash at SKA with a friend of mine flying one of the KC-135's in the same pattern, preparing for the same show. The multitude of warnings over the years, including annoyance earlier that day, had all gone unheeded.
It is worth noting that the pilots who fly with the Red Arrows are nearly all qualified instructors; many of them have also spent a significant amount of time as test pilots.
Lost my dear friend and former FE instructor in a C-130E crash in Oct. 1992 at Berkeley Springs, WV. Aircraft from the 167th TAG Martinsburg, WV and was 1200 feet too low and tore through high tension power lines and dragged a 1/2 mile long piece through the woods and rolled on it’s back and crashed into a farmhouse. All six onboard died. 😪 Very SAD deal.
@@michaelspunich7273 Thank You, it was George Griffith. He was my Instructor when he was in the 130th TAG out of Charleston. I heard the same about the Pilot flying too low over family property. On the cockpit recorder George can be heard telling the Pilot to get it on the ground right NOW ! (Some of my friends actually heard a copy of the recording) They were trying to make Hancock County airport. I think George was giving a Check Ride that day ? George was a great guy always smiling, he has been to my house visiting many times in past years.
@@michaelspunich7273 The 167th Commander at that time of the crash was Gen. Jack Kock. He came from the 130th and I have flown many hours with Jack as a FE/FM on C-119’s when he was a Major. He was a great guy and a top notch Pilot. I had almost 31 years and retired in 1998, I ran the Phase Dock on Drill Weekends when I retired. Served with a lot of great Patriots, been to 32 different Countries during those years. Was in Desert Storm and flew as a DCC on Active Duty for 8 1/2 months. Loved every minute and would do it all again !
Juan: Regarding the Fairchild B-52 crash, I was told that at least 2 of the 4 airmen were going up the rails (meaning late ejections) just before impact. Besides the Pilot (Holland), it took the life of the wing/cv, OG/cc and sq/cc. Sounds like Bird Dog’s call sign should have been Hot Dog. So sad….
I was a member of the 325th Bomb Squadron in 1984 and was on duty at the time of the crash. We lost good men on that flight. Bud had a storied history of pulling "stunts" in the B-52H
Good report of how cowboy or hot dog culture can cost lives. If you want to try it out, fly RC. I remember one day at my former aeromodellers club where a very skilled pilot was practicing knife flight low above the ground. The others wanted to laugh a bit and started shouting ‘lower’ each pass. Of course all of a sudden he was too low and could scrape the rests as if it were tooth picks. I learned an important lesson there. No one died, only the pilot’s ego, and a lot of building time to build a new plane. Don’t try this when you are abord a real plane…
I wonder what the passengers on the first two flights thoughts were. They may have encouraged the behavior overtly or covertly depending on their responses on those two take-offs. Or perhaps they advised caution. Probably some soul searching as well as extreme gratitude for not being aboard.
@@robertlewisvideo If I understand the report right, the 3rd flight was a repositioning flight for maintenance - the other flights were "missions" and had the forestry air attack officer on board.
Well done. I previously watched the Flight Channel's analysis of the B-52 crash and it and this accident remind me of a Piper Cub pilot I knew long ago. He had a ton of hours in that aircraft and could fly circles around other pilots but it takes just one bad piece of luck or mistake and there ya go~ As you were explaining, he grew complacent about the risks he was taking. Luckily Mr Cub never hit a snag but it was really just a roll of the dice despite his skill.
Great report Juan. Sad outcome. There’s only one R.A. “Bob” Hoover. This is quite common in the Part 91 Corporate environment as well as the 135 regime on “maintenance” flights, turning into air shows. Me and my best friend who also flew at Mather AFB were at Fairchild and witnessed the “Czar52” accident. I think Hollander was the stand eval pilot there and had quite a history of bringing BUFFs back with popped rivets everywhere. We had figured he was tightening his turn to avoid overflying a nuclear stores site.
I spent most of the summer birddogging out of that aircraft with that pilot. It was a hard loss. Hopefully the lessons learned can help prevent anything like this from happening again in the future.
@Glad to be done Hard to dispute this as thankfully I got it out my system fairly early in my career. One good scare is usually all it takes.There is no doubt the behavior and actions of the non pilot up front plays a significant role in the safety all aerial firefighting activities.Something the lead agency doesn't spend nearly enough time training or teaching on.
One of the most memorable things I can recall about my early flight training, because it was drilled into me over and over again, was no turns below 400' AGL. I was fortunate to get that training at a major metro airfield where this silliness in the tower would never be tolerated. Deviation from sensible and procedurally proficient practices will get you in trouble and, in this case, killed. Sadly, one of my favorite instructors was killed by a rogue pilot doing high risk maneuvers under the influence of narcotics in a Lear Jet over New Mexico in 1993.
Firstly, I have always found your analytical approach enlightening and professional. I have one piece of feedback on this video and as an actor ( and aviation enthusiast) I have a little bit of insight to offer. The dialogue between the pilot in question and the tower should not be acted and your acting of the dialogue embodies an attitude which may or may not have been present and can contain some subconscious signals of yours as to mind state of the people involved and may colour our perception as to the apportionment of blame outside that of the report. I say this as all the videos of yours I have seen are clean and clear of attitude and you clearly adhere to facts. This interpretation of how people spoke on the day carries with it, interpretive elements which can only be measured against fact, if the audio tapes were available. You can imagine I deal with dialogue in scripts all the time and interpretation can sometimes be very distant from the writer’s intentions. I do hope you take this in the professional and clear way it is intended; the same way you have conducted yourself in all the videos I have seen of yours. Keep up the good work. Best D
You suggest that "we've all tried to impress...", but you should say "some try to impress...". I'm an old, not bold, retired DPE and CFI who monitors his own hazardous flight attitudes. During my career observing from the right seat I was always on guard for signs of such a mentality, and I suggest that many pilots manifest the required self-discipline. On a different note, it beggars the imagination that the tower controller did not immediately caution the pilot to make no turns until past the departure end of the runway. Unbelievable that ATC would actually encourage his behavior.
Back in the early 90's I was a Firefighter and we had a A6 pilot fail to negotiate his distance to the Columbia River on a loop and crashed. As my brother and I responded out on a local fisherman's boat we grabbed the parachute and drug it to the shore. As we pulled the parachute up on shore the ejection seat was still connected and the deceased pilot still strapped in. We secured the scene until the military arrived and upon inspection they looked at us and said go buy a lottery ticket, that ejection seat is still fully armed. Should have killed us both when it got caught on the shore.
I remember as a kid, watching a crop duster dusting a small field with a biplane. He would dust a line then pull up vertically to miss power lines, do a hammerhead and dust another line. At the other end of the field was a line of trees, he would do another hammerhead. A lot of duster pilots bought the farm in those days. I wonder if the hammerhead pilot was one of those. Fascinating to watch the very low level aerobatics...but even as a kid I thought it was extremely dangerous.
@joshuajones335 This was back in about 1950. WW2 surplus biplanes and WW2 pilots. There were news stories about crop dusters crashing and dying all the time. Crop dusting became big after WW2, so everything was new. Both from safety and efficiency view point.
Same here when I was 8-9 years old - watching a biplane crop dusting a little more than 1/4 mile away. He'd dive into a small cotton field, then pull up hard over trees at the end. Trees between him and my line of sight hid him until he'd made a 180, arced over the field's trees and dove back down. He made a last pass and hard pull up over those trees at the end of the field, then *silence*. That old biplane was *loud* so even an 8-9 year old knew silence meant something bad! Then there was a THUD. I ran inside and told my mother he'd crashed. She didn't believe me until the rescue crews went past our house. The pilot lived but I don't think ever flew again. We went to the scene after the ambulance left. He'd landed flat, engine had separated some distance away from the front of the fuselage, and the top wings were laying brokenly against the bottom wings. IDK if I thought it was dangerous, more that it was a mesmerizing dance of motion and sound.
When I got my civilian license (which was before going into the service) my instructor had me doing accelerated stalls to prove this very point. Sadly not everyone gets the training. Equally sad is that hours in the cockpit don't always add up to being a 'safe' pilot. There are still too many out there relying on luck when they fly and sooner or later, luck runs out.
Juan. So this Aero Commander departed after sundown (21:09 the crash plane departed after that. ) According the daylight and darkness graph. Suggesting that after take off the climb and turn out may have been on instruments. If no city light are illuminating the horizon. So that leaves the possibility of vertigo and spatial miss orientation contributing and aggravated by the early left turn and showing off to this crash.
As a ultralight pilot back in my younger days I saw several incidence happen to fellow pilots. The common thread was showing off close to the ground. I was lucky when I had a engine malfunction just after becoming airborne but was able to stay level and landed on the grass near the crosswind landing runway. I fondly remember those days but always knew the risks were high
50 years ago I was getting my private pilot training outside Asheville. On the ramp were a Mitsubishi MU-2, a turbine Commander and a Jet Commander...all spinning up at the same time. The MU-2startihng rolling first, followed by the turbine and then the jet. The MU-2 on takeoff went high performance. The turbine Commander then did the same but with higher attack angle. Finally the Jet Commander took off...gained speed and then launched skyward. Obvious one upmanship in layers. Whether firmly in the envelope or not.... just not needed.
Thanks Juan for the excellent report. While this was clearly self induced, Ag also has a normalization of deviance problem similar to your fire work at the fire. The advantage of the pilot actually doing the drop, over the observation/control pilot in another airplane, is target orientation/expectation and egress plan I would think. The positive part of that normalization is concepts like down drainage egress and always allowing the nose to go down naturally in steep turns. I certainly don't want to encourage cowboy flying around the airport, but how often do pilots making a startle or emergency steep turn at low altitude consider that safety now rests in allowing the nose to go down naturally. In the videos where we now are able to observe fatal stall/spins, the airplane generally stalls and falls from plenty of altitude for the airplane to have used its dynamic neutral stability in steep turns as designed. We need to train pilots to allow the airplane to use this free potential energy of altitude, even a couple hundred feet. Unless this knowledge/muscle memory becomes default, it is too late when needed.
The hotdog turn to the left was a turn downwind. I know there wasn't much of a reported wind but it would have slightly altered the pilot's perspective. I'm not saying there was a loss of lift- just altered perspective that probably would not have been helpful.
Perfect skill set for an airline career. Low flying single pilot at tree top level, and over a burning forest. No wonder there are far too many accidents and fatalities. I use to fly some charter flight for moving fire fighters in the summer and many times the smoke was so bad we had diversions. How anyone considers flying low over a fire is more than crazy. Your report yesterday was a miracle that pilots survived the cash of a 737-300. Question is this kind of flying worth the risk that might be better served with better forest management, before the fires break out?
Most of the time, the fires are threatening homes or property, bringing up the question of why do people build a house in a forest anyway? Fires have their place for renewal of growth
Sad, I saw an F-105 pilot make a similar mistake at Korat. His engine lost power with a full load of bombs and he had his finger on the wheels up button, so slid off the end of the run way and burned up. I stood guard at the base perimeter for a couple of weeks with a Thai guard to keep people from straying into the field where the bomb-lets were scattered.We didn't know about Agent Orange at that time which was sprayed all over the place. I remember looking at the pieces of the wreck, it hit with enough force to bend everything forward, making all the parts non-recoverable.
I watched what I think was an accelerated stall, but from a different aircraft. I was with a friend, he was in a left turn at about 40° of bank, steady state. There was what I think was a C-150 Aerobat slightly lower than us and about 1/4 mile to the east of us (lower and to our left). This aircraft put it's nose down a bit, picked up some airspeed and then pulled up into a tight climbing right turn. As the turn tightened, the aircraft appeared to shake, and the right wing dropped suddenly, resulting with the Cessna inverted. It continued rolling right, the nose came down, and the aircraft looked like it went through one and a half rotations of a spin before the pilot recovered. He was fortunate to have the altitude to get away with it. I'm not a pilot. But that still looked like a screw up to me. My own pilots comment was something along the lines of "shit. That was f^πked up".
Actually that is the purpose of the C-150 Aerobat, reinforced to allow flying aerobatic maneuvers, one is the initiation of spins, exactly what you saw, as long as the maneuvers are flown above 1500 feet and off airways. That said, I do not disagree with what you commented about. You saw the flight and practicing should never be done at low altitude.
It is important to learn how to recover from spins, with different flap configurations and more important with the CG near the rear limit, all that is in the aircraft owners manual.
Correction: Czar 52’s PiC was Bud Holland as you stated. Sometimes my auto spell check has a A.I. mind of its own. Take care Juan! P.S., Still no word from the FAA on my medical. It’s coming up on two years of evaluating the same information sent to them in August 2021. Sheesh!
That is a very sad, because very avoidable. The pilot and the tower kind of pushed each other on to be even more daring. I understand all too well how "good it feels" to let off some steam, but steering a machine, and especially a plane, can lead to over-evaluation of the own capabilities and under-estimating dangers and limitations. It is always best to keep some humility, we are not perfect ... Very sad that a good pilot lost his life over this. My heart goes out to all his family and friends.
I know the report says the trim cables weren’t a factor, but it also says in the report that it can’t determine that the remaining intact cables failed before or after the crash…is it possible that the added stress from the pilot’s maneuvering caused the remaining cables to break, thus exacerbating or inherently creating the accelerated stall? I’m not trying to take any responsibility off the pilot…I just don’t think w/o knowing 100% either way, that it can be said they didn’t contribute to, even if a small part, the accident.
Long ago I was driving to our local airport for a flying lesson and saw smoke rising from there. When I arrived I learned the airport had just shut down. A flyer had done something similar, also ending his flight and his life inverted sliding down a runway. Too horrible; I never went back for another lesson. - I'm not afraid to fly as a passenger, though. But, thinking about it, on commercial and corporate flights I've been through two failures of navigation equipment, one engine failure, and two emergency landings (5 different aircraft).
Really proud of how MAG handled this. They did it textbook right -- immediate, corrective action; mandatory safety meeting company-wide; updated training and safety procedures; push to create a safety culture with anonymous, non-punitive reporting; and even invited their affiliate to audit their SMS. I mean, *this* is how you respond to this. No-nonsense, make it very clear that they will not tolerate pilots who fly like this. I'm sure maybe a couple of his pilot buddies knew he could be a bit showman-ish but probably brushed it off because he was a "good pilot". Well, any "good pilot" can become a "dead pilot" on a bad day. If someone had reported his behaviour, he would have been hauled off schedule, and gotten a severe dressing down, but he'd be alive.
Juan, would the fact that there was only the pilot on board the 3rd flight (the 2 previous ˋshow´flights having 2 onboard) increased the risk of the accelerated stall with less weight in the aircraft?
I'm an expat living in S. America for the past year and a half. Some months ago (it would have been 2022 I think) there was a crash of a small passenger plane very close to where I live. There were 8 lives lost. Other than that, I don't know much about it or what happened to cause the crash. As I understand it, the plane went down in the barrio Antioquia area which is about 3 minutes from me by car. That day I asked my driver why there was a smoky haze over the city (Medellin) because the air quality here is excellent and I had never seen anything hanging in the air like that. He told me that a plane crashed.
1975-1976 I was at our local airport KGGG often because my dad had an AG-5B Tiger hangared there. I was in the big hangar (Stebbins Aviation) one day when a pilot stumbles out of flight service with a martini in his hand and heads toward a Lear parked just outside that was already warmed up. He got in the left seat, taxied to 13 and and immediately goes vertical after takeoff until out of sight. All of us dropped our heads and prayed he got some sense before he killed someone. Saw others with overblown egos, some stunt pilots (not in their Pitts but in other aircraft) do similar things there over the years. No one was ever reprimanded -
I was taught and I taught that you are to maintain thy airspeed unless the ground comes up and smite thee!! Knowing that as the angle of bank increases the stall increases! You have to have a deep respect for aerodynamics!
Along a somewhat similar line, a friend of mine lost his life as the pilot of an A-36 along with two of his passengers. He was widely known as being a "hot dog" when he flew. As a group of close friends he would "buzz" us when we were out playing golf and frequently buzzed our houses at low levels. While his accident was storm related at night, I have wondered if as an instrument rated pilot he was so arrogant as to believe he could go through it on instruments. Even the FAA argued in court that the accident was caused by his failure to control the airplane, not their failure to warn him of what he was flying into. Their controller had spoken to him 9 minutes before he went off radar but never mentioned a storm ahead right on his flight plan route. William M. Shearer, 10-29-2004. BTW - a fourth person turned down the week-end hunting trip a day before they left, citing safety concerns.
8 years retired now, I spent many years initially in a somewhat gung-ho light-twin environment. I would not even begin to guess if or how many times I came close to a stupid mistake like this - I was young, indestructible and God's gift to aviation at that particular time. Oh, the EGO! I happened to mature in time to avoid this fate - probably by luck rather than common sense. That was acquired later, not to mention the discipline and training involved in the airline part of my career. CRM training (in part reviewing the stupid mistakes others had made) was a real eye-opener.
Yup, as we age, our “maturity level “ sort of takes over eh….
@@scsteinbrecher Me too. I used to do stupid stuff as a young pilot. I remember back in 1978 or 79 I had to fly a Bonanza from DuPage Co. (KDPA) to "O'Hare Intl. (ORD). We landed and dropped off a passenger. I was a part-time CFI for DuPage Aviation at the time, the largest dealer of Beechcraft airplanes in the mid-west for sales in those days. The airport (DPA) is unrecognizable to me now.
There was a previously notorious snow storm a few days earlier and the snow banks were at least 10 ft. high along the taxi-ways. BTW, Chicago had two of its coldest winters in 1978 and 79. Anyway, as we lined up onto either rwy 28 L or 28C, I can't recall now, there was a 747 behind us and several other large jets behind him on the taxi-way in sequence for departure. Here we were piloting a puny brand new Bonanza F33 in sub-freezing temperatures on a very cold clear day ahead of a line of very large commercial airplanes. We were cool and all the other airline pilots knew it. We knew it as well.
Trust me, any lightly loaded Bonanza (brand new) in sub-freezing temps can perform as if it were turbo-charged and with JATO rockets strapped to its side.
As we were instructed to "taxi into position and hold" the tower wanted us to make a 270-degree right turn to avoid other traffic in the area.
Tower: Bonanza 12345 can you make and immediate 270 degree right turn after take-off? "
Me: "No problem"..... BTW there was another flight instructor sitting the the right seat, so we young guys were extra confident.
Tower: "Bonanza 12345 cleared for take off, make an immediate right 270 degree turn after take-off".
Me: Roger, make immediate right 270 after take-off.
Of course, we mid-20-something-year-old hot shots had to show the 747 captains how to "really" fly an airplane. After take-off clearance, we pushed in full throttle.
The Bonanza seemed to lift off in only a few hundred feet due to temperatures being so very cold.
After we broke ground, I stayed in the ground effect to build up speed. Then I raised the landing gear at the same time making a 45 degree climbing right banking turn. Those JATO rockets kept us climbing faster and faster. After we climbed to about a 1000 ft or so we rolled out on our destination heading.
Suddenly we heard a radio call from one of the captains still on the taxiway who saw the entire event and said: "Give those guys a Kewpie doll".
My buddy CFI in the right seat said: "we'll take it".
That was back in the days when this stuff was still frowned upon, but yet quietly cheered behind the scenes. Yes I was a twenty-something-year-old "hotdog", but since those days I've become a very conservative pilot and would admonish any of my friends or other pilots from doing something like that today. ADSB back then was not even a dream. There were no recordings other than radar and voice tapes. No security cameras to record the event.
However, I did comply with the tower's request to make a right climbing 270-degree turn as "soon as able". It's just that nobody expected an airshow at the time. I must admit, I felt like Bob Hoover that day, even though I would admonish anybody today for doing a similar thing. I had to tell this story before I go on to wherever the next world may be. Please give a "thumbs up" if you've read this story, even if you disagree with the content. I just want to see how many people may have learned something from it.
@@daffidavit The Blizzard of 1978, I was 11. my dad worked in the public schools and they were closed so he got to take home tons of milk in the little cartons that would have gone bad. crates of it.. my parents distributed most out to all the neighbors, many stores were closed or run out or without power. it was crazy.
A good start would be to get rid of the "gung-ho" sounding designation of "Bird Dog" for these youngsters.. psych101.
@@dbspecials1200 Yes, I was a student at the time living in Carol Stream, Ill. I remember my car would not start up until the OAT was at least -11 degrees after the sun beat on the hood. As soon as I walked outside, all of the moisture in my nose instantly crystized into frost. It seem like our breath would freeze and fall to the ground. Glad I'm living in Texas now. Thanks for commenting. Stay well.
My Dad was a draftsman for Aero Commander in Bethany OK, from 63-72 when he passed away. In 66 He took me & my sister to check out the inner workings of the plant one evening getting to see the Jet Commander Arthur Godfrey had taken around the world setting many records. I miss you Dad !
I was an ATC at Shemya Air Station in Alaska and worked Arthur Godfrey do a refueling at Shemya. On contact they were low on fuel and asked for a rapid desent to a GCA ( PRESCION RADAR APPROACH) NO LEVEL OFFS TO SAVE FUEL. SLAM DUNK
Great training picture of you Juan. Now we know who Tom Cruise was hoping to look like.
Thanks for the report
A most unfortunate occurrence. Thankfully, he did not have a passenger onboard that last time when he made his fatal mistake. I'm sorry for his family's and friends' loss.
I'm sure the atc in training had a very quick change of mind on being in the aircraft, the next time.... ATC should never condone such
Thank you Juan. You're absolutely saving lives by making these videos.
@@andrewbuffkin Yes, it is, and hopefully he gets paid for the service as well. The subject matter frequently gets videos demonetized, though.
@@75Gear Well, I have both commercial pilot and ATC career background, retired from both and so I have no dog at stake in any fight. Do tell me about these “tell it like it is guys” who don’t also regularly get it wrong.
@75 Gear So in other words, you are telling us that you have never “hot-dogged” an airplane, demonstrating your flying skills even to yourself, let alone with ATC’s encouragement, and that even a good RC pilot would never do that? Really? How much do you know of human nature, and especially the nature of people who have the interest and drive to become pilots to begin with? Furthermore, if someone thinks that a more humble and cautioning reaction is appropriate instead of pretense and lambasting a dead man, this makes them a “company man” who isn’t saying what he really thinks? Sounds like you’ve got a whole lot of assumptions going on there. Juan’s comparison to the lack of disciplinary reins being pulled back on Bud Holland before he had the opportunity to crash a B-52 in Spokane was spot-on.
A tragic lesson for all. And a reminder of the three words don't want to hear as a passenger: "Hey, watch this"
Almost as bad as "Hold my beer 🍺"
You can only run the stop sign so many times before you get t-boned! Great report once again, routine doesn't make it right, thanks Juan.
Another great job Juan! When you work as a pilot, the employer doesn’t pay you to “have fun” with his aircraft. Employers pay pilots to employ the aircraft to accomplish tasks. The old cliche that “you don’t own the aircraft, the taxpayers do” applies as it relates to employers. It’s everyone’s job to identify and report hotdog pilots and it’s not being a Karen. You might save the guy’s life!
@@bitteroldman701 and sometimes people do it their entire lives and never get t-boned. These people are the loudest. Don't listen to these people
@@laa0fa502 This is also important to remember. Reminds me of old people who've smoked their entire lives.
People who drink and drive @@EneTheGene
@@JoshuaTootell At least drinking and driving is a criminal offence.
I'm not a pilot and don't plan to be one, but I watch your videos for a couple of reasons. One is that I'm a long-time motorcyclist (since 1976). I don't have enough fingers to count the riding buddies of mine that aren't here because of the same mistakes that some pilots are guilty of. Appreciate the thoughtful analysis and breakdown you do on these terrible accidents, many of which could have been avoided.
This is my local airport. When the crash first happened I had just left the airport but those that were there said it was just as the report said. Really sad that hot dogging was encouraged by the tower. I'm sure there has been some advanced training for the controllers
Thank you
I actually did an accelerated stall in a steep dive with Crazy Horse a few years ago, and that was a profound experience. We know it can happen, but to actually see it made a big impression.
It drives home the importance of training and knowledge. I know it’s only a glider but the simulated aero tow rope breaks I’ve had pulled in me in training have outweighed the “study” side of things. Have walked away from every lesson, check flight and solo with a greater understanding.
@@GlideYNRG Practicing the Turnback 270.
@@CFITOMAHAWK have had a good mix with the checks rides because of my breaks away. Just drives home to me that you can read/study all you want, nothing beats being in the cockpit. Love what it's doing to the old grey matter.
I did something similar in a Bonanza years ago. Steep turn right after takeoff. I felt a buffet and immediately unloaded the wing. It left enough of an impression that I never did that again! Lesson learned.
@@LTVoyager I think you may be the only person to watch more aviation videos than me!!!! Lol
Fantastic old picture of yours, and very nice to hear you relate to this story with your first hand take of what it was to fly. Great explanation as usual. Cheers, from Argentina
It's always surprising to learn that accidents like this occur because the pilot didn't follow safe procedures during take off or landing. ATC should not have encouraged the cavalier attitude exhibited in the previous takeoffs. Very nice review as always Juan.
Two minutes and thirty nine seconds and I am hooked. Juan, you are. the. bomb. in an age of dying journalism. Pat yourself on the back because I am apparently unable to finish a sentence without forgetting how said sentence began. In my head. Mental. Peace out!
Thanks Jim!
Risk assessment: 1. Frequency (how often do you do this?) 2. Probability (How likely is doing it going to result in an accident?) 3. Severity (What is the result of failure?) This is a perfect example of 1, 2, and 3 resulting in a fatality.
Somehow complacency seems to allow one to forget the unforgiving nature of gravity.
If he waited for altitude. He might have recovered.
If he waited for speed, the risk would be reduced.
If he took a gentle turn. He wouldn't have crashed.
So he failed all of the basic safety checks. Do you have speed? Do you have altitude to trade for speed? Did you maneuver safely?
Unfortunate loss of an excellent pilot due to overconfidence
@@glenmcgillivray4707 An excellent pilot wouldn't have done this.
@@thedukeofbork3147 overconfidence usually is rooted in the confidence in your abilities and familiarity with your plane.
The problem is that it sneaks up on you and stabs you in the back.
So we must all be careful and re-evaluate our actions before they punish us.
@@glenmcgillivray4707 Confidence in your own ability is useless unless it is accompanied by the ability to assess and criticise yourself.
Thanks for the video. I remember this accident happening. I live in the area and worked as a forest firefighter for the MNR for 5 years. I knew some of the air attack officers that could have been in that plane that day and thought I may have lost someone I knew.
Juan all Air Tanker flying is now suspended in Oz, as you know we have had a C130 & Boeing 737 both crash and burn within a few years. This final report is worrying, a Cowboy pilot who is encouraged by the Control Tower to show off. As we all know Cowboys don't last long in the Wild Wild West. Yet what's unusual in the Military Cowboys are encouraged. Look at Hollywood films, lots of Cowboy flying in Top Gun. Never underestimate how a Cowboy can turn a wild ride into a death sentence.
As a former military pilot I can say I met very few "cowboy" types. There is a huge difference between high-risk flight operations and reckless behavior. If maneuvers are trained, briefed, and risk factors analyzed every time, risky maneuvers can be conducted safely.
We always briefed our top 3 risk factors before every flight, and if there were no significant external threats we would typically discuss complacency as our top internal threat.
I have seen more careless flight attitudes in civil aviation than I ever did on Active Duty in the military.
@@Ghost_Hybrid Sadly I seem to find too many military aircraft videos of fairly reckless flying. It's weird what happens when people turn into 'putting on a show' mode and a camera is involved.
My mom was outside and heard this one. We didn't know what it was, but noticed the lack of planes around, we could only hope it wasn't too bad.
The Bud Holland situation was a real tragedy. Amazing that the USAF ignored this guy.
They didn't ignore him, they idolized him. Until after they flew with him.
He had to have another officer flying with him to keep him in check. The part of the story I don’t understand, (remembering from the video) he was on final to land but decided for a go around as there was an obstruction on the runway, was there an obstruction to avoid or was this action as part of the “showing off”?.
Also from memory he realised he was going to track directly over an underground fuel bunker hence the evasive tight turn to avoid a ‘Courts Marshall’ offence.
@@iancurtis1152 It's worth reading the Air Force's investigation - lots of opportunities for improvement. The pilot flying with him was his CO, Lieutenant Colonel Mark C. McGeehan. McGeehan said if I can't ground this guy (which he apparently couldn't, since he was so idolized in the chain of command) he would not risk the life of someone else to fly with him, since he considered him so dangerous. The CO was a very courageous man, who gave his life to protect the others in his command from this dangerous pilot. It's a shame that he could not prevent the accident, but anyone who has flown knows that if there is someone in the cockpit that wants to do something, it's very hard to prevent it.
Thanks Juan. Great summary. I'd also like to compliment you on having great audio and diction on your channel. Some UA-camrs fall short of even mediocre, and it makes a video a pain to watch.
I wonder where the breakdown in inspection/maintenance processes occurred relative to the frayed cable.
The report states that inspection of the cables is difficult because they are in an inaccessible area, and also states that the operating company changed its' maintenance procedures so that inspections must carried out using a boroscope.
Thanks for covering this. Excellent job.
Thank you Juan 🙏🏽. For everything you do !!! 💯
Another great explanation of how not to impress others with your flying skills, not considering the risk vs. reward. You are Gods gift to the aviation community. From Orlando, Fl. MCO ✈️
I was boarding passengers bound for Thunderbay when news came that airport closed indefinitely. Had to deplane all and go home. Airport remained closed for a number of days stranding many. Eventually the shorter RW 12 was reopened and company authorized us to land a fully loaded Max there. For some reason the rumors we got there were that a catastrophic engine failure killed the pilot. Thank you for making it clear.
Thanks, Juan. Keep the blue side up. Our condolences to the family, friends, and coworkers. 🙏 RIP
Aviation is blessed in that it has such transparency around incidents and safety culture ... there are other industries where the hot dog culture remains and is glorified.
I’m very interested in all things related to aviation, and the lessons in this video goes way outside aviation - it can (and should) be applied/thought of in many other areas of life where you engage in potentially dangerous activities. When you’re young, you usually don’t have a safety thinking at all, or very little, but with time and experience you usually/hopefully get it. The danger is, as Juan says here, that when one’s done things that are borderline dangerous several times with a good outcome, then regardless of age one may get the sense that it’ll work fine every time.
I’m a person who’s been quite impulsive all my life, and it’s only the last few years I’ve acquired a habit of actually thinking through and taking safety precautions. I’m 50, so that’s quite late, dumb, but better late than never.
Thanks Juan for each and every one of your exceptionally good videos.
Great job with this one as usual. But thank you for stressing the importance of us watching out for others as well as ourselves. Take care keep up the great work.
I did something similar in a Bonanza years ago. Steep turn right after takeoff. I felt a buffet and immediately unloaded the wing. It left enough of an impression that I never did that again! Lesson learned.
I was about 20 years old in a medium sized town or very small city when I first saw one of these Areo Commanders. It was parked near on tarmac near middle of the runway. Two men with trench coats walked up to the plane got in started it and pulled onto middle of runway and took off. As a younger person I was impressed but latter learned it was stupid, No walk around no pre flight no going to end of runway to have more room in case of a failure.
Another GREAT and honest review! Thank you. Juan, your safety reminders and candid input saves lives. Thank you for all the effort you put into your channel.
Great report. Tragic and completely avoidable. The TC-690 is my office during fire season in BC as an Air Attack Officer. This will be a valuable discussion point this spring. Multiple failures here. As the old saying goes something like this: “There are bold pilots, and there are old pilots, but there are no bold old pilots”.
@@Rexster2022 completely agree
@@airattack-aerialwildfireop1576 Yup AAO progession from a 337 to a 500 to now the 680 likely didn't help things either.One of the top two in that roll in the last 30 yrs in that outfit in terms of total missions.While not discussed there was little doubt fatigue played a role in this as everyone was crazy pushed that fire season
I grew up around airports. This showing off was the norm. I took my first ride at age 11with a hot dog pilot who lifted off, flew the length of the runway at less than 10 feet, they made a hard right 180 and flew back down the runway full throttle just off the deck and pulled a steep climb over the hangar. This was in 1965 at the South Columbus Airport. Many of the pilots in this group bought the farm showing off.
Around here the tower would have a phone number for you before you complete the 180.
Pissing off the tower girl you fly out of routinely would be the worst possible juju. She knows you.
Make their life easy when possible they are trying to do it for you
Bolton field??
WOW!!!!
I worked at the Sussex, N. J. airport and took flying lessons there in 1959- 1961 helping rebuild 22 WWII piper cubs. Nobody ever did any stupid stunts that I saw or heard about, but there were plenty of small accidents or almost accidents.
Well covered again. Looks like the company did a good job (in the aftermath) of making sure nothing like this happens again on their watch.
Proving the adage, "safety regulations are written in blood"
Thanks for communicating these issues to the aviation community.
Very sad JB. They went out for service and lost their lives. 🙏 RIP
Just because you have an Aero-Commander doesn't mean you're Bob Hoover.
Thank you Juan, been busy there with reports the last couple of weeks. We appreciate your work sir...tc safe travels.
JB, at marker 1:20 IS THAT YOU?
As usual, great update.
Take care and fly safe. 🖖🏼🤟🏼
I'd like to know what, if any, disciplinary actions were taken against the involved ATC parties who seemed to encourage this kind of behavior.
As always, thanks much for sharing.
Steve
Yes, my exact thoughts as well.
Playing devil's advocate 1) It is not ATC's job to tell pilots how to fly. 2) Was the controller encouraging or tolerating ?
Pete was a friend and used to fly with him at another job. Miss you buddy.
I'm sorry.
Did you ever notice a pattern of hazardous attitudes or behaviors?
I'm sure he was an excellent pilot and friend who was probably a little tired, without a passenger on this third flight and still had the banter with ATC in his mind.
I don't fly at all.
Don't know if the first sharp turn felt safe to him, maybe his passenger didn't enjoy it. So he gave it another go on this third run, maybe with changing conditions.
Just an unfortunate decision that one time, if this can be the only cause.
Too tight, too soon.
My heart goes out to him. Thanks for his service to firefighting.
My condolences to you and his family.
RIP.
@@Saml01 Does it even matter? He's dead!
@@pomerau That was my concern as well. The pilot had executed the same maneuver twice before without issue, so what was different on the third flight? Less weight, pulling it a little hotter since he didn't have passenger to "worry" about, just enough change in metoc to nudge it past the "edge". Doesn't seem like NAV Canada answered the "What went wrong THIS time?"
As a Canadian Pilot; someone who used to work in Forestry and flew in small planes out of Thunder Bay and airports across Canada's North - I flew with pilots like this back in the late 80s early 90s. Back then (and perhaps now as well) the culture within these companies is one where you couldn't say anything about unsafe flying because you were then branded as a problem; not 'one of the guys'.
It amazes me that this type of piloting is still accepted and in this case even encouraged by ATC. Digging to see if Nav Can implemented any sort of procedural change to deal with this, or if it was swept under the rug.
As a once young rogue pilot (and loving it!) I fully concur with your assessment!!
Great analysis once again JB!! BTW, you need to plan to be full time MC at Oshkosh STOL Competition!!
Aviation wisdom: there are old pilots and there are bold pilots but not too many bold old pilots. RIP
There are old people on the ground when these fly-boys decide to fk around and find out and they didn't buy any tickets to the air show. These pilots deserve what they get.
I've heard this, I've also heard it as "there are obese people and old people but there are no obese old people" for obvious reason.
Ya ya ya
@@noname-zg8lh Yeah, how dare they try to keep you from dying in a fire.
Going to tell us the SR71 speed story next?
🙄 on the controller's incitement of more "show." Hot-dogging safely requires a high degree of awareness and clear, well-understood boundaries. As you said, the complacency from having done it any number of times before can lead you to believe you're not "on the edge" when you are just a step or two away from disaster. I was there for the aftermath of Holland's crash at SKA with a friend of mine flying one of the KC-135's in the same pattern, preparing for the same show. The multitude of warnings over the years, including annoyance earlier that day, had all gone unheeded.
It is worth noting that the pilots who fly with the Red Arrows are nearly all qualified instructors; many of them have also spent a significant amount of time as test pilots.
Lost my dear friend and former FE instructor in a C-130E crash in Oct. 1992 at Berkeley Springs, WV. Aircraft from the 167th TAG Martinsburg, WV and was 1200 feet too low and tore through high tension power lines and dragged a 1/2 mile long piece through the woods and rolled on it’s back and crashed into a farmhouse. All six onboard died. 😪 Very SAD deal.
@@michaelspunich7273 Thank You, it was George Griffith. He was my Instructor when he was in the 130th TAG out of Charleston. I heard the same about the Pilot flying too low over family property. On the cockpit recorder George can be heard telling the Pilot to get it on the ground right NOW ! (Some of my friends actually heard a copy of the recording) They were trying to make Hancock County airport. I think George was giving a Check Ride that day ? George was a great guy always smiling, he has been to my house visiting many times in past years.
@@michaelspunich7273 The 167th Commander at that time of the crash was Gen. Jack Kock. He came from the 130th and I have flown many hours with Jack as a FE/FM on C-119’s when he was a Major. He was a great guy and a top notch Pilot. I had almost 31 years and retired in 1998, I ran the Phase Dock on Drill Weekends when I retired. Served with a lot of great Patriots, been to 32 different Countries during those years. Was in Desert Storm and flew as a DCC on Active Duty for 8 1/2 months. Loved every minute and would do it all again !
Juan: Regarding the Fairchild B-52 crash, I was told that at least 2 of the 4 airmen were going up the rails (meaning late ejections) just before impact. Besides the Pilot (Holland), it took the life of the wing/cv, OG/cc and sq/cc.
Sounds like Bird Dog’s call sign should have been Hot Dog. So sad….
I thought the 2 pilots eject up and the 2 navigator and bombardier eject down.
Could have summed this up by Pilot: “I’m an idiot. Controller: “I’m an idiot too.”
I was a member of the 325th Bomb Squadron in 1984 and was on duty at the time of the crash. We lost good men on that flight. Bud had a storied history of pulling "stunts" in the B-52H
Good report of how cowboy or hot dog culture can cost lives. If you want to try it out, fly RC. I remember one day at my former aeromodellers club where a very skilled pilot was practicing knife flight low above the ground. The others wanted to laugh a bit and started shouting ‘lower’ each pass. Of course all of a sudden he was too low and could scrape the rests as if it were tooth picks. I learned an important lesson there. No one died, only the pilot’s ego, and a lot of building time to build a new plane. Don’t try this when you are abord a real plane…
I wonder what the passengers on the first two flights thoughts were. They may have encouraged the behavior overtly or covertly depending on their responses on those two take-offs. Or perhaps they advised caution. Probably some soul searching as well as extreme gratitude for not being aboard.
Maybe that is why no one was with him on the 3rd flight.
They new it was a matter of time. Not if but when.
@@robertlewisvideo If I understand the report right, the 3rd flight was a repositioning flight for maintenance - the other flights were "missions" and had the forestry air attack officer on board.
@Glad to be done Sadly you are 100 % correct on this as the AAO should have known better and frankly is lucky to still be with us.
Well done. I previously watched the Flight Channel's analysis of the B-52 crash and it and this accident remind me of a Piper Cub pilot I knew long ago. He had a ton of hours in that aircraft and could fly circles around other pilots but it takes just one bad piece of luck or mistake and there ya go~ As you were explaining, he grew complacent about the risks he was taking. Luckily Mr Cub never hit a snag but it was really just a roll of the dice despite his skill.
@@MrAkurvaeletbe And yet you not only read all of it, but wasted time replying to it. Don't pretend you are too busy to read posts. :-)
Great report Juan. Sad outcome. There’s only one R.A. “Bob” Hoover. This is quite common in the Part 91 Corporate environment as well as the 135 regime on “maintenance” flights, turning into air shows. Me and my best friend who also flew at Mather AFB were at Fairchild and witnessed the “Czar52” accident. I think Hollander was the stand eval pilot there and had quite a history of bringing BUFFs back with popped rivets everywhere. We had figured he was tightening his turn to avoid overflying a nuclear stores site.
I spent most of the summer birddogging out of that aircraft with that pilot. It was a hard loss. Hopefully the lessons learned can help prevent anything like this from happening again in the future.
@Glad to be done Hard to dispute this as thankfully I got it out my system fairly early in my career. One good scare is usually all it takes.There is no doubt the behavior and actions of the non pilot up front plays a significant role in the safety all aerial firefighting activities.Something the lead agency doesn't spend nearly enough time training or teaching on.
Thanks for the run down. I love the way you go through the report.
One of the most memorable things I can recall about my early flight training, because it was drilled into me over and over again, was no turns below 400' AGL. I was fortunate to get that training at a major metro airfield where this silliness in the tower would never be tolerated. Deviation from sensible and procedurally proficient practices will get you in trouble and, in this case, killed. Sadly, one of my favorite instructors was killed by a rogue pilot doing high risk maneuvers under the influence of narcotics in a Lear Jet over New Mexico in 1993.
Excellent reminder Juan many thanks
Great job as always Juan 👏
Firstly, I have always found your analytical approach enlightening and professional.
I have one piece of feedback on this video and as an actor ( and aviation enthusiast) I have a little bit of insight to offer. The dialogue between the pilot in question and the tower should not be acted and your acting of the dialogue embodies an attitude which may or may not have been present and can contain some subconscious signals of yours as to mind state of the people involved and may colour our perception as to the apportionment of blame outside that of the report.
I say this as all the videos of yours I have seen are clean and clear of attitude and you clearly adhere to facts. This interpretation of how people spoke on the day carries with it, interpretive elements which can only be measured against fact, if the audio tapes were available.
You can imagine I deal with dialogue in scripts all the time and interpretation can sometimes be very distant from the writer’s intentions.
I do hope you take this in the professional and clear way it is intended; the same way you have conducted yourself in all the videos I have seen of yours. Keep up the good work. Best D
You suggest that "we've all tried to impress...", but you should say "some try to impress...". I'm an old, not bold, retired DPE and CFI who monitors his own hazardous flight attitudes. During my career observing from the right seat I was always on guard for signs of such a mentality, and I suggest that many pilots manifest the required self-discipline. On a different note, it beggars the imagination that the tower controller did not immediately caution the pilot to make no turns until past the departure end of the runway. Unbelievable that ATC would actually encourage his behavior.
Back in the early 90's I was a Firefighter and we had a A6 pilot fail to negotiate his distance to the Columbia River on a loop and crashed. As my brother and I responded out on a local fisherman's boat we grabbed the parachute and drug it to the shore. As we pulled the parachute up on shore the ejection seat was still connected and the deceased pilot still strapped in. We secured the scene until the military arrived and upon inspection they looked at us and said go buy a lottery ticket, that ejection seat is still fully armed. Should have killed us both when it got caught on the shore.
I remember as a kid, watching a crop duster dusting a small field with a biplane.
He would dust a line then pull up vertically to miss power lines, do a hammerhead and dust another line.
At the other end of the field was a line of trees, he would do another hammerhead.
A lot of duster pilots bought the farm in those days. I wonder if the hammerhead pilot was one of those.
Fascinating to watch the very low level aerobatics...but even as a kid I thought it was extremely dangerous.
@joshuajones335 This was back in about 1950. WW2 surplus biplanes and WW2 pilots. There were news stories about crop dusters crashing and dying all the time. Crop dusting became big after WW2, so everything was new. Both from safety and efficiency view point.
There's a difference between risky flying to get a job done and showing off when it isn't necessary.
Same here when I was 8-9 years old - watching a biplane crop dusting a little more than 1/4 mile away. He'd dive into a small cotton field, then pull up hard over trees at the end. Trees between him and my line of sight hid him until he'd made a 180, arced over the field's trees and dove back down. He made a last pass and hard pull up over those trees at the end of the field, then *silence*. That old biplane was *loud* so even an 8-9 year old knew silence meant something bad! Then there was a THUD. I ran inside and told my mother he'd crashed. She didn't believe me until the rescue crews went past our house. The pilot lived but I don't think ever flew again. We went to the scene after the ambulance left. He'd landed flat, engine had separated some distance away from the front of the fuselage, and the top wings were laying brokenly against the bottom wings. IDK if I thought it was dangerous, more that it was a mesmerizing dance of motion and sound.
Omg i miss the old days
Holy freaking bejeepers...you're HANDSOME Juan!!!
Juan, have you ever or can you do some behind the scenes videos about air traffic controllers? Thanks for all you do!
When I got my civilian license (which was before going into the service) my instructor had me doing accelerated stalls to prove this very point. Sadly not everyone gets the training. Equally sad is that hours in the cockpit don't always add up to being a 'safe' pilot. There are still too many out there relying on luck when they fly and sooner or later, luck runs out.
Juan.
So this Aero Commander departed after sundown (21:09 the crash plane departed after that. ) According the daylight and darkness graph. Suggesting that after take off the climb and turn out may have been on instruments. If no city light are illuminating the horizon. So that leaves the possibility of vertigo and spatial miss orientation contributing and aggravated by the early left turn and showing off to this crash.
As a ultralight pilot back in my younger days I saw several incidence happen to fellow pilots. The common thread was showing off close to the ground. I was lucky when I had a engine malfunction just after becoming airborne but was able to stay level and landed on the grass near the crosswind landing runway. I fondly remember those days but always knew the risks were high
50 years ago I was getting my private pilot training outside Asheville. On the ramp were a Mitsubishi MU-2, a turbine Commander and a Jet Commander...all spinning up at the same time. The MU-2startihng rolling first, followed by the turbine and then the jet. The MU-2 on takeoff went high performance. The turbine Commander then did the same but with higher attack angle. Finally the Jet Commander took off...gained speed and then launched skyward. Obvious one upmanship in layers. Whether firmly in the envelope or not.... just not needed.
Thanks Juan for the excellent report. While this was clearly self induced, Ag also has a normalization of deviance problem similar to your fire work at the fire. The advantage of the pilot actually doing the drop, over the observation/control pilot in another airplane, is target orientation/expectation and egress plan I would think. The positive part of that normalization is concepts like down drainage egress and always allowing the nose to go down naturally in steep turns. I certainly don't want to encourage cowboy flying around the airport, but how often do pilots making a startle or emergency steep turn at low altitude consider that safety now rests in allowing the nose to go down naturally. In the videos where we now are able to observe fatal stall/spins, the airplane generally stalls and falls from plenty of altitude for the airplane to have used its dynamic neutral stability in steep turns as designed. We need to train pilots to allow the airplane to use this free potential energy of altitude, even a couple hundred feet. Unless this knowledge/muscle memory becomes default, it is too late when needed.
In my line of work which is heavy equipment, we call guys like this hot rods. Most of the time accidents will happen sooner or later.
Man, young Juan Browne looks like Tom Cruise.
Maybe he was a stunt double!
Juan prefers to be called “Maverick”.😉
The ATC guy fed the troll.
The hotdog turn to the left was a turn downwind. I know there wasn't much of a reported wind but it would have slightly altered the pilot's perspective. I'm not saying there was a loss of lift- just altered perspective that probably would not have been helpful.
Perfect skill set for an airline career. Low flying single pilot at tree top level, and over a burning forest. No wonder there are far too many accidents and fatalities. I use to fly some charter flight for moving fire fighters in the summer and many times the smoke was so bad we had diversions. How anyone considers flying low over a fire is more than crazy. Your report yesterday was a miracle that pilots survived the cash of a 737-300. Question is this kind of flying worth the risk that might be better served with better forest management, before the fires break out?
Most of the time, the fires are threatening homes or property, bringing up the question of why do people build a house in a forest anyway? Fires have their place for renewal of growth
People don't see the disaster that was prevented, only the one that was mitigated.
Sad, I saw an F-105 pilot make a similar mistake at Korat. His engine lost power with a full load of bombs and he had his finger on the wheels up button, so slid off the end of the run way and burned up. I stood guard at the base perimeter for a couple of weeks with a Thai guard to keep people from straying into the field where the bomb-lets were scattered.We didn't know about Agent Orange at that time which was sprayed all over the place. I remember looking at the pieces of the wreck, it hit with enough force to bend everything forward, making all the parts non-recoverable.
Low level radical stuff to impress other people has killed many and will continue to.
I watched what I think was an accelerated stall, but from a different aircraft. I was with a friend, he was in a left turn at about 40° of bank, steady state. There was what I think was a C-150 Aerobat slightly lower than us and about 1/4 mile to the east of us (lower and to our left). This aircraft put it's nose down a bit, picked up some airspeed and then pulled up into a tight climbing right turn. As the turn tightened, the aircraft appeared to shake, and the right wing dropped suddenly, resulting with the Cessna inverted. It continued rolling right, the nose came down, and the aircraft looked like it went through one and a half rotations of a spin before the pilot recovered. He was fortunate to have the altitude to get away with it.
I'm not a pilot. But that still looked like a screw up to me. My own pilots comment was something along the lines of "shit. That was f^πked up".
Actually that is the purpose of the C-150 Aerobat, reinforced to allow flying aerobatic maneuvers, one is the initiation of spins, exactly what you saw, as long as the maneuvers are flown above 1500 feet and off airways.
That said, I do not disagree with what you commented about. You saw the flight and practicing should never be done at low altitude.
It is important to learn how to recover from spins, with different flap configurations and more important with the CG near the rear limit, all that is in the aircraft owners manual.
Could have been a not so good snap roll, which the Aerobat can do just fine.
good report
Thanks Juan. You make learning fun!
Hey Juan, who is the good looking young buck in the flight suit standing next to N153Z? 🙂
Correction: Czar 52’s PiC was Bud Holland as you stated. Sometimes my auto spell check has a A.I. mind of its own. Take care Juan! P.S., Still no word from the FAA on my medical. It’s coming up on two years of evaluating the same information sent to them in August 2021. Sheesh!
That is a very sad, because very avoidable. The pilot and the tower kind of pushed each other on to be even more daring. I understand all too well how "good it feels" to let off some steam, but steering a machine, and especially a plane, can lead to over-evaluation of the own capabilities and under-estimating dangers and limitations. It is always best to keep some humility, we are not perfect ... Very sad that a good pilot lost his life over this. My heart goes out to all his family and friends.
Thank you, Mr. Juan Browne. See ya here.
I know the report says the trim cables weren’t a factor, but it also says in the report that it can’t determine that the remaining intact cables failed before or after the crash…is it possible that the added stress from the pilot’s maneuvering caused the remaining cables to break, thus exacerbating or inherently creating the accelerated stall? I’m not trying to take any responsibility off the pilot…I just don’t think w/o knowing 100% either way, that it can be said they didn’t contribute to, even if a small part, the accident.
Lol, I was just thrown off by the vintage photo of discount "Tom Cruise". Thanks for the update, btw!
The two most dangerous words in aviation;- "Watch this.."
Long ago I was driving to our local airport for a flying lesson and saw smoke rising from there. When I arrived I learned the airport had just shut down. A flyer had done something similar, also ending his flight and his life inverted sliding down a runway. Too horrible; I never went back for another lesson. - I'm not afraid to fly as a passenger, though. But, thinking about it, on commercial and corporate flights I've been through two failures of navigation equipment, one engine failure, and two emergency landings (5 different aircraft).
Next time take the train. 5 ? LOL..
Really proud of how MAG handled this. They did it textbook right -- immediate, corrective action; mandatory safety meeting company-wide; updated training and safety procedures; push to create a safety culture with anonymous, non-punitive reporting; and even invited their affiliate to audit their SMS. I mean, *this* is how you respond to this. No-nonsense, make it very clear that they will not tolerate pilots who fly like this. I'm sure maybe a couple of his pilot buddies knew he could be a bit showman-ish but probably brushed it off because he was a "good pilot". Well, any "good pilot" can become a "dead pilot" on a bad day. If someone had reported his behaviour, he would have been hauled off schedule, and gotten a severe dressing down, but he'd be alive.
I love the old photo, Juan! Looking good. Highway to the danger zone haha
Thank you for your continued focus on safety.
Juan, would the fact that there was only the pilot on board the 3rd flight (the 2 previous ˋshow´flights having 2 onboard) increased the risk of the accelerated stall with less weight in the aircraft?
I'm an expat living in S. America for the past year and a half. Some months ago (it would have been 2022 I think) there was a crash of a small passenger plane very close to where I live. There were 8 lives lost. Other than that, I don't know much about it or what happened to cause the crash. As I understand it, the plane went down in the barrio Antioquia area which is about 3 minutes from me by car. That day I asked my driver why there was a smoky haze over the city (Medellin) because the air quality here is excellent and I had never seen anything hanging in the air like that. He told me that a plane crashed.
I am astonished by the lack of professionalism from the pilot and the tower crew.
I'm fascinated by the flying methods of today. In Korea we flew slow piston engined aircraft taking photographs of unwanted troops etc.
Very informative. Thanks, RB, Nova Scotia.
My hometown Juan! YQT is a very busy airport for being in the north.
The only thing missing was a call to “hold me beer”
1975-1976 I was at our local airport KGGG often because my dad had an AG-5B Tiger hangared there. I was in the big hangar (Stebbins Aviation) one day when a pilot stumbles out of flight service with a martini in his hand and heads toward a Lear parked just outside that was already warmed up. He got in the left seat, taxied to 13 and and immediately goes vertical after takeoff until out of sight. All of us dropped our heads and prayed he got some sense before he killed someone. Saw others with overblown egos, some stunt pilots (not in their Pitts but in other aircraft) do similar things there over the years. No one was ever reprimanded -
I was taught and I taught that you are to maintain thy airspeed unless the ground comes up and smite thee!! Knowing that as the angle of bank increases the stall increases! You have to have a deep respect for aerodynamics!
Yep Airspeed and Proper Rudder Inputs.
Wow. That kind of flying is like directing a three ring circus inside the cabin of an airplane.
Along a somewhat similar line, a friend of mine lost his life as the pilot of an A-36 along with two of his passengers. He was widely known as being a "hot dog" when he flew. As a group of close friends he would "buzz" us when we were out playing golf and frequently buzzed our houses at low levels. While his accident was storm related at night, I have wondered if as an instrument rated pilot he was so arrogant as to believe he could go through it on instruments. Even the FAA argued in court that the accident was caused by his failure to control the airplane, not their failure to warn him of what he was flying into. Their controller had spoken to him 9 minutes before he went off radar but never mentioned a storm ahead right on his flight plan route. William M. Shearer, 10-29-2004. BTW - a fourth person turned down the week-end hunting trip a day before they left, citing safety concerns.