A few other times I tip: (1) If I raise preflop and everyone folds, I throw the dealer the blinds. (2) If I would have lost a lot more money if a different river card would have come (say I have a K-high flush draw, it misses, but someone else wins the pot with his missed A-high flush draw), I'll tip the dealer even if I lose the pot and thank them for not putting out a different river card. (3) $1 per point for any football team I'm rooting for (warning: this can get relatively expensive compared to your stack if you're playing $1/$2 and your team does really well).
Oh man! I love all of these. When you say "football", do you mean NFL? Because that really could get expensive. But the good karma you're acquiring is invaluable.
@@leehjones Yep, NFL. A few times last year I tipped a quarter of my $200, $1/$2 stack when my team scored like 49 points. It was horrible. At that point I was actually rooting for the other team's defense. :)
A guy tanked for like 2 minutes on my river jam on a one-liner for a straight (have no idea what he was thinking I had; he must have had a set he couldn’t fold). Then finally folded. I tipped the dealer $11 over my usual $1-2 tip
To everyone complaining that the dealers make more than you (a grinder), that the house rakes a lot so they shouldn’t tip a lot, things like this. They have a REAL JOB. You are playing a game. Poker should not be a job. It not only makes you miserly (as evidenced by these comments) but it also makes people miserable. Poker should not be a job!!! That’s why the rec players have way more fun than pros
Potential topic I'd like to see covered in a future episode - How to overcome "locking in a win" mentality. I already know the logical answers (it's all one long session, you should play your longest sessions when you're winning, etc), but even so, I *still* fight with this temptation on occasion (almost to the point where I just want to scramble all my chips so that I have no idea how much I'm up or down for the session!) Good stuff and thank you!
@@pokersimple9238 other possible titles are "Stop Quitting" and "Loss Quitting". But seriously, it's already high on the list, for reasons that will surprise you and infuriate David Sklansky. -LJ
Absolutely love that the both of you are as generous with your tipping as you are with sharing your insights of poker! I always tip every hand, regardless if I’m just scooping the blinds. If I profit - I want to reward the dealer who gave me the cards to do so! I would love to see a video on overbets - where & when they are valuable. I think the overbet is a tool in the arsenal that many of us are unsure when to use in certain situations. Also, Lee, as an aside, I’m surprised that you spilled a coffee rather than a Diet Mountain Dew! Keep up the great work guys, we thank you! Ben
Thank you Ben. I consider myself fortunate to be able to tip generously. Regarding the beverage, due to some catastrophic catering misunderstanding at the Oaks, they don't serve Diet Mountain Dew. You can't always get what you want... --LJ
Ok serious question! I’ve been a full time poker pro for 12 years. This happened in Vegas in 2012. True story. $1/$3 game (I'll be nice and not mention the casino, but the dealer was named Dwyne!) I win the pot when in big blind. Next hand I'm small blind (duh) and I throw out my dollar small blind. Dwyne snatches it up AS A TIP! OK, maybe, just maybe, he thought I threw it out as a tip. So, since I had no intention of tipping for THAT won pot, I opened my mouth: Me: "Dwyne, that's my small blind." He reaches into his tip pocket and fumbles for a second as if to retrieve my $1 chip. He then reveals not one, but TWO $1 chips. He tosses the two in my direction and says... "Here! Take two! YOU, obviously need the money more than I do!" Just curious, people....thoughts on this?
Imo it would depend on how he said it and any history you had with Dwyne. Assuming he was a relative stranger and you had little history with him I would say it was out of line. Not enough to make a complaint, though. After all you ended up plus a dollar from the exchange. ;-)
I think that if the dealer knew full well that you were posting a blind and not tipping, then he was WAY out of line. But my judgements are always harsh in this area. In my perfect world, dealers would never talk except to say hello and goodbye and to run the game. − TA
I would get him written up for sure. That is sort of the line from the movie "Waiting". When the person leaves a very small tip on a big meal with 2 people and the waiter chases him down and gives back to him saying you need this more then me.
2021 UPDATE: We aren't making PokerSimple videos anymore. But we sure are making other stuff! Lee is continuing to wield his pen to spread poker love and wisdom. You can read Lee's weekly Global Poker articles here: globalpoker.com/poker-school/lee-jones-luvs-poker/ And I'm still having a blast making movies. My new project is a UA-cam channel called PokerWords. Here's a link to that: ua-cam.com/users/tommyangelo420 We wish you well on your poker journey. Tommy and Lee
Thanks for this video. I had been wondering about tipping the floor and you addressed it. Here's how I currently address tipping on pots won preflop. If I win more than just the blinds (limpers folded or took down with 3-bet), I'll tip. If I win only the blinds, I'll tip if this is the first pot I've won on this dealer's shift. If I have already tipped the dealer during the shift, I will usually opt not to tip the first couple of times I only pick up the blinds.
oh hey, I missed the boat catching this episode late. Thanks so much for taking on my question for a whole episode, Tommy & Lee! I'm left with the take-away that any hope of a positive ROI in small stakes cash tables must be non-existent for anyone who tips like this (ie. once all the tips and rakes are factored into any returns). I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but just reality. Meaning, it's purely 'money in exchange for entertainment' at that point -- without much prospect to net more than what you started with... which is, fine. I know you guys have other income sources so it doesn't matter to really track your returns over the long-run, but it sure would be interesting to see what kind of true net ROI a pro grinder makes over time once tipping + rakes are accounted for. It's not like I was planning to go pro ever, but I did hold out hope that it was possible to get to a point of very small positive ROI as a fun goal. I cannot begin to imagine what the target return needs to be to overcome tipping + rake in the revenue calculation (for small stakes cash tables), and how much better you'd need to be than everyone else in order to achieve that. In a world where pro players eek out only a few percent over break-even at large stakes, it seems like you'd need to be at some God-mode advantage of 10%+ in order to (after costs) arrive at a 1-2% return in small stakes cash games. I'm really curious to know how that all compares to online and tournament poker, but I know that's for some other corner of the internet. Great food for thought. Thanks for the amazing series. Best wishes.
Hi Shaun. I'm glad you got to see the episode you inspired! "but it sure would be interesting to see what kind of true net ROI a pro grinder makes over time once tipping + rakes are accounted for." I factored in rake and tips into my poker accounting for my last 10 years as a full-time grinder. Although I never thought in terms of RIO, so even all that data might not answer your question.
@@TommyAngelo420 Fair enough. Maybe I'm thinking about it incorrectly when I apply 'Return on Investment' to a poker grinding model. Hmm... For financial tracking, 'Net Operating Income' is always useful for a given individual, but doesn't do much good for comparison purposes (between games, other players, different rules, different time periods, etc) -- especially with how to gauge the impact of changes to rake, tipping etiquette, etc (over time). A *net rate* of some kind is what I'm after. I know there's 'BB/hr' as a measure, but I'm never sure if BB/hr is gross or net, and even if it's net, it's hard to know if a given pro is factoring in all the gaming costs (especially non-dealer tips -- eg. floor boss). If you don't mind my asking (and anyone who wants to chime in is welcome)... You mentioned that the level of competition has been improving greatly, *and* that your tipping has become more generous over time. Given those two changes that would impact profitability, do you have an idea of what your BB/hr rate might be out there these days? Or, a less put-you-on-the-spot phrasing might be (again, to anyone with an idea): What's a realistic target in todays small stakes cash games for a positive net BB/hr factoring in the tipping etiquette Tommy recommends as well as modern rakes? *switch out BB/hr with any preferred measure of rate
@@shrohdin "it's hard to know if a given pro is factoring in all the gaming costs (especially non-dealer tips -- eg. floor boss)." FWIW, I've always suggested to my pro clients that they account for rake and tips in their accounting. "What's a realistic target in todays small stakes cash games for a positive net BB/hr factoring in the tipping etiquette Tommy recommends as well as modern rakes?" At $1/2 with a $200 max buyin and no straddles, I think an expert player can expect a result of breaking even. At $2/5 with bad players in the game, I think netting 10BB per hour is a good target. When I grinded $5/10 for 10 years, my net win rate never strayed far from 10BB/hour. I think I got better and the games got tougher in step.
They will say tip on top of that. I am the opposite. If they want to force a tip in advance from 100% of the field, even the 80%+ that lose, then that is all they get.
Hi Jim, I'm afraid I don't have enough experience with tipping in tournaments to know the right thing. As awkward and confusing as tipping in cash games is, tipping in tournaments is a rat's nest of confusion and opacity, so I'll probably just stay away from the whole topic. --LJ
I'm glad they made this video, and I wish it would lead to an industry-wide discussion about tipping, versus the casino paying their employees a full living wage. It is a discussion that is LONG overdue, but there's no surprise at all why the coversation never happens... because the casino profits off of our generosity directly.
I agree with everything here except your policy of tipping bad dealers like normal dealers. And I'm talking about REAL bad dealers. When you get a dealer who chronically struggles to enforce rules/ split pots correctly/ read the board to determine winners etc I just don't tip.
The harder a person try’s to hang on to something the more it will elude them. Money is no different! Allowing money to flow out will allow money to flow in. I always tip and if it’s a pot over 500 I’ll throw the dealer 20 or 25 bucks. What we put out we receive, we all want the run good but are we willing to put out the good in order to receive the good? Thanks for your thoughts guys, I enjoyed the video.
I’ve been a full time poker pro for 12 years. No way that I agree with what’s being suggested here. If you have lots of “throw away” money, and/or are on vacation, fine. But... If you are a grinder that plays 2000 hrs a year and makes less than 50K/year (that’s huge % of grinders!) goes home and calculates how much $ they’ll save if they: 1. Stop tipping in pots under $30 2. Stop tipping WHEN STUCK FOR DAY. 3. Tip $1 max unless pot over $1,000. 4. Routinely, randomly skip ANY tip. They will find so much “extra” in their pocket and more bills they can pay. Less stress in their life. And so on! I love these two guys, but I imagine they have $ coming in from places outside of poker. If you rely 100% on poker $ and you make what average Americans make, you’d not say what they are saying. I’m LOVING these rules. Right now I’m sending this comment through internet, paid for from TIP SAVING money. Feels great! Cheers. [I left this as a reply to joe, but I want to leave again it in the “root” of the comments too, to make sure everyone sees it.]
Hey Jim, you do you. I've always noticed that waiters and waitresses are the best tippers in restaurants, because they know how hard it is to make it on a server's income (which is mostly tips). Those dealers have bills like the rest of us, and pitching cards is how they pay them. I wouldn't feel too cool about stiffing them, but that's just me. --LJ
Lee Jones not about FEELING anything Lee. It’s about what I CAN do. Also LEE. American society “forces” me to tip servers at restaurants. Vegas poker dealers have a relatively high paying job for what they do. (A lot of people work WAY harder in this country and make WAY less!) They get tip money from people like you and Tommy and tourists. There’s totally a place for people like me to tip the amounts that I feel are correct. And I’m not going to allow anyone to make me feel badly for this.
You guys are having two different discussions. Lee is clearly okay with the "tipping economy", while others in the discussion here, we're not okay with it. Lee is 100% correct with what he's saying!!! It's really a philosophical problem of "should tipping ever be a part of an economy at all"? but that's far beyond the scope of this video, or of Lee Jones, or of any of us (we don't make the rules, we are followers of rules!!).
@@asb3pe In fact, I say in the video that I *don't* like the tipping economy. Which is true. However, it is in the economy in which we live. When I have an interaction with somebody who pays his or her bills with tips, I'm not going to express my displeasure with the tipping economy by not tipping that person.
hey, you want to be Mr. Pink, go ahead. no one is trying to stop you. you either seem to feel the need to explain/justify your actions or demonstrate why those who are doing differently than you are wrong. you're going to fail either way, because just like no one on the tipping side can convince you, you are unlikely to convince anyone on the tipping side. (unless they were hoping for a chance to switch sides, lol). I learned a long time ago - it's enough for me to always be right; I no longer feel a compulsion to demonstrate why everyone else is wrong. :-D
I remember the .50 pieces at Mirage and Biloxi. If a dealer doesn't say Thank You, then you shouldn't tip them anymore. They take it for granted and they shouldn't. If it's a horrible dealer and they don't run the game properly and don't enforce rules that they should that costs you money, then you shouldn't tip. Other than that, Yes tip as long as you are making something decent on the pot more than a blind take down.
And tip the ...chip runner. And tip the ...floor when you ask for a table change and get it. And tip the ...lady that cleans your table after your curry chicken dinner. And tip the ...valet guy. And tip the ...guy at table who makes you laugh (new to me, but PokerSimple!)
@@chezchezchezchez Nope never tip the cashier, chip runner, floor, or clean up person in the poker room. Of course valet $1 for bringing car but I never valet, I don't want anyone else driving my car.
Never having won one... I think I'd probably tip 5%, pretty much regardless of the amount. I mean, if I won $100k, certainly I could give a $5k tip. If it were that big, I'd probably try to arrange to have a large portion of it spread around all the dealers or something.
I think more in terms of dollars, than percentage. If the payoff is in the $100-$500 range, I would tip $10-20. If it was $5,000, I would tip $100. If the dealer was a friend, I'd tip more. I think of jackpots as rakeback. I've never felt an urge to go tip crazy. − TA
Tipping $1 on every win is kinda steep especially on a 1 / 2 table where the casino drops 1 for the jackpot, then takes 5 for the rake. Add a dollar to that and that's $7 a hand leaving the table. It's almost impossible NOT to tip though because of peer pressure. So what I do is, I tip $1 on hand where I win on the turn or river. If I win pre-flop or on the flop, I just don't tip. This is the only video you guys have made so far that I just totally disagree with. I don't understand why it is acceptable for the players to subsidize the casino's responsibility to pay their workers a decent wage. Also, these dealers are getting paid up to $40,000 a year in tips to deal a game of poker, meanwhile the guy at McDonald's is making minimum wage and busting his ass. No one tips that guy!! You guys even said it yourselves.. tipping is not the way it should be handled, however you guys just do it anyway. If you want to change the culture you going to have to stop tipping. Just my 0.02
Smokin' Joe could not agree with you more Joe! Tipping is a joke. If a grinder that plays 2000hrs a year and makes less than 50K/year (that’s huge % of grinders!) goes home and calculates how much $ they’ll save is they: 1. Stop tipping in pots under $30 2. Stop tipping WHEN STUCK FOR DAY 3. Tip $1 max unless pot over $1,000 4. Randomly skip ANY tip. They will find so much “extra” in their pocket and more bills they can pay. Less stress in their life. And so on! I’m LOVING these rules. Cheers.
Hey Joe - if I thought not tipping would change the culture, I'd do it. But there's effectively 0% chance that would happen. However, there's a 100% chance the dealer would go home with less money in his/her pocket, and I just can't be party to that. As I told Jim Cheeseborough, you do you. The good news for both of you is that if I ever end up at a table with you, I'll be happy to tip for you (or both of you if all three of us are at the same table). You'll be happy and I'll be ecstatic. --LJ
Bingo, sadly, any action taken against the casino (such as choosing to never tip while playing poker) really only hurts the dealers themselves. The casino really doesn't care if we don't tip dealers, it doesn't hurt the casino in any way at all, except for the fact the dealers may choose not to deal at that casino any longer, and this may result in the casino having problems finding competent dealers to staff their tables... but this would then only hurt the players, as we have to put up with rookie dealers. Hands per hour would drop, and that would hurt the casino somewhat, yes... but overall, withholding of tips is not gonna have any real effect on the place where we'd want the effect to occur... on the corporation itself.
I'm quite TAG/nitty so I don't win as many pots as my looser brethren, therefore I don't end up tipping as often. Because of that I prefer to tip rather than pay some sort of extra tax on all players to increase the wages of the staff.
@@tomohawk52 One of my stock lines to my wife and friends after a mopey session when I win almost zero pots is: I saved a lot of money on tips today. − TA
great episode! as a recreational player, I am playing poker w/ "money I can afford to lose" and I came to realize that means I can afford to be generous (within my means). so if I raise w/ AA (or xx!) and everyone folds and I win the blinds, I toss the $1 small blind to the dealer & say "I'll chop it with you". and If I go through a whole dealer's sit and don't win a pot, I'll shoot them $1 and say "it's not you're fault I can't win" (while laughing, not grumbling) I had a dealer say "I don't think you played a hand!" and I replied "I appreciate you trying to keep me out of trouble" (laughing). I will tip bigger (a redbird) on a big pot. and, like Lee, I have tipped for other players. the spots that confuse me is if I pick up a high hand bonus for say $200 . . . then I feel awkward. I don't want to 'give away' "too much", but I don't want to look like a jerk. but I don't obsess on it, as it is really "found money' (though various promotional money is the only reason I'm profitable!)
Great attitude ekw. I think you'll find that your approach works well and makes you many friends in the poker room. Regarding high-hand things, I'd say 5-10% with some kind of cap. I'm not going to tip $100 on a $1k jackpot - maybe $50. --LJ
Good stuff, ewk. I especially like you policy of tipping the dealer and making a cheerful comment after winning no pots from that dealer. It's a +EV play, and I mean financially, by way of keeping you upbeat at the exact moment when the poker gods are testing you. − TA
My rule is, I don't tip if the pot is small because I'm a bankroll nit. Good lord, the dealers must be the winning-est players in the house with their steady stream of ones all day. But that's just me, perhaps if I become a crusher I'll loosen up a bit. LOL Anyhow, my funny tipping story, I sit at 1/3 and win my first pot when someone limps, i raise, everyone folds, and don't tip the hand. An asian lady next to me turns my way and it feels like she's staring at me briefly, then she looks down and grabs a white chip and throws it to the dealer. She apparently was upset I didn't tip the dealer properly so she tipped the dealer for me. LOL I didn't react visibly, but I saw it and inside, I was laughing out loud!!!! She probably was panicking at this guy who just sat down next to her and was gonna be awful bad luck for the whole table. *grin*
I was in a hand when two guys went at each other and it was a huge pot. When it was over, the winner put out a dollar. His opponent looked at him and put up two dollars. The winner looked at him and made it three dollars. The other guy put out two more and said, “Have you ever been 4-tipped before?” I saw a player as he was pulling in the chips, say to the dealer, “Did I get you?“ The dealer replied, “sir, it never hurts to be sure.”
Hint: never ask the dealer if you got them. In many clubs, they are required to say "Yes." Saying "No" or anything else can get them "written up". If you can't remember if you tipped or not, just tip them again. Seriously. --LJ
While I understand the sentiments expressed herein... my personal take on "tipping" is that the casino should pay their employees a living wage. Simple as that. Tipping, to me, is nothing more than a convenient way for the corporation (the house, the casino) to offload their financial obligation onto the customer. The viewpoint Tommy and Lee are expressing here is the correct viewpoint if we accept the fact of paying dealers a lower base hourly wage with the expectation that tips will cover the rest of their "living wage". My point is, we shouldn't accept that thinking, we should urge casinos to pay their employees in full.
The great acclaimed actor, Tommy (Angelo) Lee Jones
A few other times I tip: (1) If I raise preflop and everyone folds, I throw the dealer the blinds. (2) If I would have lost a lot more money if a different river card would have come (say I have a K-high flush draw, it misses, but someone else wins the pot with his missed A-high flush draw), I'll tip the dealer even if I lose the pot and thank them for not putting out a different river card. (3) $1 per point for any football team I'm rooting for (warning: this can get relatively expensive compared to your stack if you're playing $1/$2 and your team does really well).
Oh man! I love all of these. When you say "football", do you mean NFL? Because that really could get expensive. But the good karma you're acquiring is invaluable.
@@leehjones Yep, NFL. A few times last year I tipped a quarter of my $200, $1/$2 stack when my team scored like 49 points. It was horrible. At that point I was actually rooting for the other team's defense. :)
A guy tanked for like 2 minutes on my river jam on a one-liner for a straight (have no idea what he was thinking I had; he must have had a set he couldn’t fold). Then finally folded. I tipped the dealer $11 over my usual $1-2 tip
Hi B B. Very well played.
To everyone complaining that the dealers make more than you (a grinder), that the house rakes a lot so they shouldn’t tip a lot, things like this. They have a REAL JOB. You are playing a game. Poker should not be a job. It not only makes you miserly (as evidenced by these comments) but it also makes people miserable. Poker should not be a job!!! That’s why the rec players have way more fun than pros
Well said!
Potential topic I'd like to see covered in a future episode - How to overcome "locking in a win" mentality. I already know the logical answers (it's all one long session, you should play your longest sessions when you're winning, etc), but even so, I *still* fight with this temptation on occasion (almost to the point where I just want to scramble all my chips so that I have no idea how much I'm up or down for the session!)
Good stuff and thank you!
Hi Daniel. Your topic is already high on the list. It'll be in an episode called "Stop Losses" or "Quitting" or something like that. Stay tuned! − TA
@@pokersimple9238 other possible titles are "Stop Quitting" and "Loss Quitting". But seriously, it's already high on the list, for reasons that will surprise you and infuriate David Sklansky. -LJ
Absolutely love that the both of you are as generous with your tipping as you are with sharing your insights of poker!
I always tip every hand, regardless if I’m just scooping the blinds. If I profit - I want to reward the dealer who gave me the cards to do so!
I would love to see a video on overbets - where & when they are valuable. I think the overbet is a tool in the arsenal that many of us are unsure when to use in certain situations.
Also, Lee, as an aside, I’m surprised that you spilled a coffee rather than a Diet Mountain Dew!
Keep up the great work guys, we thank you!
Ben
Hi Ben. Thanks for the encouraging words. And good idea for overbets as a topic. It's on the list. − TA
Thank you Ben. I consider myself fortunate to be able to tip generously. Regarding the beverage, due to some catastrophic catering misunderstanding at the Oaks, they don't serve Diet Mountain Dew. You can't always get what you want... --LJ
When I saw the video title, I knew there would be a reference to the opening scene of "Reservoir Dogs". You never disappoint me, guys!
Thanks William. It would have been a sin of omission to not use that scene. − TA
Ok serious question!
I’ve been a full time poker pro for 12 years. This happened in Vegas in 2012. True story.
$1/$3 game (I'll be nice and not mention the casino, but the dealer was named Dwyne!)
I win the pot when in big blind.
Next hand I'm small blind (duh) and I throw out my dollar small blind.
Dwyne snatches it up AS A TIP!
OK, maybe, just maybe, he thought I threw it out as a tip.
So, since I had no intention of tipping for THAT won pot, I opened my mouth:
Me: "Dwyne, that's my small blind."
He reaches into his tip pocket and fumbles for a second as if to retrieve my $1 chip.
He then reveals not one, but TWO $1 chips. He tosses the two in my direction and says...
"Here! Take two! YOU, obviously need the money more than I do!"
Just curious, people....thoughts on this?
Imo it would depend on how he said it and any history you had with Dwyne. Assuming he was a relative stranger and you had little history with him I would say it was out of line. Not enough to make a complaint, though. After all you ended up plus a dollar from the exchange. ;-)
I think that if the dealer knew full well that you were posting a blind and not tipping, then he was WAY out of line. But my judgements are always harsh in this area. In my perfect world, dealers would never talk except to say hello and goodbye and to run the game. − TA
I would get him written up for sure. That is sort of the line from the movie "Waiting". When the person leaves a very small tip on a big meal with 2 people and the waiter chases him down and gives back to him saying you need this more then me.
Also, if you are not tipping after winning the pot in bb, delay putting your SB out to make it more clear that its the SB and not a tip.
PokerIncome I went to his boss and had him written up. 👊🏻
2021 UPDATE: We aren't making PokerSimple videos anymore. But we sure are making other stuff! Lee is continuing to wield his pen to spread poker love and wisdom. You can read Lee's weekly Global Poker articles here:
globalpoker.com/poker-school/lee-jones-luvs-poker/
And I'm still having a blast making movies. My new project is a UA-cam channel called PokerWords. Here's a link to that:
ua-cam.com/users/tommyangelo420
We wish you well on your poker journey.
Tommy and Lee
Thanks for this video. I had been wondering about tipping the floor and you addressed it.
Here's how I currently address tipping on pots won preflop. If I win more than just the blinds (limpers folded or took down with 3-bet), I'll tip. If I win only the blinds, I'll tip if this is the first pot I've won on this dealer's shift. If I have already tipped the dealer during the shift, I will usually opt not to tip the first couple of times I only pick up the blinds.
oh hey, I missed the boat catching this episode late. Thanks so much for taking on my question for a whole episode, Tommy & Lee!
I'm left with the take-away that any hope of a positive ROI in small stakes cash tables must be non-existent for anyone who tips like this (ie. once all the tips and rakes are factored into any returns). I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but just reality. Meaning, it's purely 'money in exchange for entertainment' at that point -- without much prospect to net more than what you started with... which is, fine.
I know you guys have other income sources so it doesn't matter to really track your returns over the long-run, but it sure would be interesting to see what kind of true net ROI a pro grinder makes over time once tipping + rakes are accounted for.
It's not like I was planning to go pro ever, but I did hold out hope that it was possible to get to a point of very small positive ROI as a fun goal.
I cannot begin to imagine what the target return needs to be to overcome tipping + rake in the revenue calculation (for small stakes cash tables), and how much better you'd need to be than everyone else in order to achieve that. In a world where pro players eek out only a few percent over break-even at large stakes, it seems like you'd need to be at some God-mode advantage of 10%+ in order to (after costs) arrive at a 1-2% return in small stakes cash games.
I'm really curious to know how that all compares to online and tournament poker, but I know that's for some other corner of the internet.
Great food for thought. Thanks for the amazing series. Best wishes.
Hi Shaun. I'm glad you got to see the episode you inspired!
"but it sure would be interesting to see what kind of true net ROI a pro grinder makes over time once tipping + rakes are accounted for."
I factored in rake and tips into my poker accounting for my last 10 years as a full-time grinder. Although I never thought in terms of RIO, so even all that data might not answer your question.
@@TommyAngelo420 Fair enough. Maybe I'm thinking about it incorrectly when I apply 'Return on Investment' to a poker grinding model. Hmm...
For financial tracking, 'Net Operating Income' is always useful for a given individual, but doesn't do much good for comparison purposes (between games, other players, different rules, different time periods, etc) -- especially with how to gauge the impact of changes to rake, tipping etiquette, etc (over time). A *net rate* of some kind is what I'm after.
I know there's 'BB/hr' as a measure, but I'm never sure if BB/hr is gross or net, and even if it's net, it's hard to know if a given pro is factoring in all the gaming costs (especially non-dealer tips -- eg. floor boss).
If you don't mind my asking (and anyone who wants to chime in is welcome)...
You mentioned that the level of competition has been improving greatly, *and* that your tipping has become more generous over time. Given those two changes that would impact profitability, do you have an idea of what your BB/hr rate might be out there these days?
Or, a less put-you-on-the-spot phrasing might be (again, to anyone with an idea):
What's a realistic target in todays small stakes cash games for a positive net BB/hr factoring in the tipping etiquette Tommy recommends as well as modern rakes?
*switch out BB/hr with any preferred measure of rate
@@shrohdin "it's hard to know if a given pro is factoring in all the gaming costs (especially non-dealer tips -- eg. floor boss)."
FWIW, I've always suggested to my pro clients that they account for rake and tips in their accounting.
"What's a realistic target in todays small stakes cash games for a positive net BB/hr factoring in the tipping etiquette Tommy recommends as well as modern rakes?"
At $1/2 with a $200 max buyin and no straddles, I think an expert player can expect a result of breaking even. At $2/5 with bad players in the game, I think netting 10BB per hour is a good target.
When I grinded $5/10 for 10 years, my net win rate never strayed far from 10BB/hour. I think I got better and the games got tougher in step.
@@TommyAngelo420 oh, interesting. really helpful. thanks so much!
wish you had said something about tipping in tournaments where a percentage of your entry fee goes to the staff.
They will say tip on top of that. I am the opposite. If they want to force a tip in advance from 100% of the field, even the 80%+ that lose, then that is all they get.
Hi Jim, I'm afraid I don't have enough experience with tipping in tournaments to know the right thing. As awkward and confusing as tipping in cash games is, tipping in tournaments is a rat's nest of confusion and opacity, so I'll probably just stay away from the whole topic. --LJ
Lee Jones great idea Lee.
Love you guys,but I wish you never made this video.
Looking forward to the NEXT one.
I'm glad they made this video, and I wish it would lead to an industry-wide discussion about tipping, versus the casino paying their employees a full living wage. It is a discussion that is LONG overdue, but there's no surprise at all why the coversation never happens... because the casino profits off of our generosity directly.
Hi Jim. Can't help you there. I stopped playing tournaments long before they came up with the built in tipping charge. − TA
I agree with everything here except your policy of tipping bad dealers like normal dealers. And I'm talking about REAL bad dealers. When you get a dealer who chronically struggles to enforce rules/ split pots correctly/ read the board to determine winners etc I just don't tip.
The harder a person try’s to hang on to something the more it will elude them. Money is no different! Allowing money to flow out will allow money to flow in.
I always tip and if it’s a pot over 500 I’ll throw the dealer 20 or 25 bucks. What we put out we receive, we all want the run good but are we willing to put out the good in order to receive the good?
Thanks for your thoughts guys, I enjoyed the video.
I think you and I are on the same page Lisa. --LJ
"Thanks for your thoughts guys."
And thank you for yours! − TA
man these videos have helped a lot, but I hate the music lmao
Lol! Sorry to put you through all that, but I'm glad it's worth it!
@@TommyAngelo420 just givin yall a tough time lol, videos are good
It's insane how you can make a string of good decisions, but 1 big mistake can set you back so bad
I’ve been a full time poker pro for 12 years. No way that I agree with what’s being suggested here. If you have lots of “throw away” money, and/or are on vacation, fine. But...
If you are a grinder that plays 2000 hrs a year and makes less than 50K/year (that’s huge % of grinders!) goes home and calculates how much $ they’ll save if they:
1. Stop tipping in pots under $30
2. Stop tipping WHEN STUCK FOR DAY.
3. Tip $1 max unless pot over $1,000.
4. Routinely, randomly skip ANY tip.
They will find so much “extra” in their pocket and more bills they can pay.
Less stress in their life.
And so on!
I love these two guys, but I imagine they have $ coming in from places outside of poker. If you rely 100% on poker $ and you make what average Americans make, you’d not say what they are saying.
I’m LOVING these rules.
Right now I’m sending this comment through internet, paid for from TIP SAVING money. Feels great!
Cheers.
[I left this as a reply to joe, but I want to leave again it in the “root” of the comments too, to make sure everyone sees it.]
Hey Jim, you do you. I've always noticed that waiters and waitresses are the best tippers in restaurants, because they know how hard it is to make it on a server's income (which is mostly tips). Those dealers have bills like the rest of us, and pitching cards is how they pay them. I wouldn't feel too cool about stiffing them, but that's just me. --LJ
Lee Jones not about FEELING anything Lee. It’s about what I CAN do.
Also LEE. American society “forces” me to tip servers at restaurants.
Vegas poker dealers have a relatively high paying job for what they do.
(A lot of people work WAY harder in this country and make WAY less!)
They get tip money from people like you and Tommy and tourists. There’s totally a place for people like me to tip the amounts that I feel are correct.
And I’m not going to allow anyone to make me feel badly for this.
You guys are having two different discussions. Lee is clearly okay with the "tipping economy", while others in the discussion here, we're not okay with it. Lee is 100% correct with what he's saying!!! It's really a philosophical problem of "should tipping ever be a part of an economy at all"? but that's far beyond the scope of this video, or of Lee Jones, or of any of us (we don't make the rules, we are followers of rules!!).
@@asb3pe In fact, I say in the video that I *don't* like the tipping economy. Which is true. However, it is in the economy in which we live. When I have an interaction with somebody who pays his or her bills with tips, I'm not going to express my displeasure with the tipping economy by not tipping that person.
hey, you want to be Mr. Pink, go ahead. no one is trying to stop you.
you either seem to feel the need to explain/justify your actions or demonstrate why those who are doing differently than you are wrong.
you're going to fail either way, because just like no one on the tipping side can convince you, you are unlikely to convince anyone on the tipping side.
(unless they were hoping for a chance to switch sides, lol).
I learned a long time ago - it's enough for me to always be right; I no longer feel a compulsion to demonstrate why everyone else is wrong. :-D
I remember the .50 pieces at Mirage and Biloxi.
If a dealer doesn't say Thank You, then you shouldn't tip them anymore. They take it for granted and they shouldn't. If it's a horrible dealer and they don't run the game properly and don't enforce rules that they should that costs you money, then you shouldn't tip.
Other than that, Yes tip as long as you are making something decent on the pot more than a blind take down.
And tip the ...chip runner.
And tip the ...floor when you ask for a table change and get it.
And tip the ...lady that cleans your table after your curry chicken dinner.
And tip the ...valet guy.
And tip the ...guy at table who makes you laugh (new to me, but PokerSimple!)
@@chezchezchezchez Nope never tip the cashier, chip runner, floor, or clean up person in the poker room. Of course valet $1 for bringing car but I never valet, I don't want anyone else driving my car.
I'd love your thoughts on the extremely rare chance you win a bad beat jackpot. What % to the dealer, net or gross?
Never having won one... I think I'd probably tip 5%, pretty much regardless of the amount. I mean, if I won $100k, certainly I could give a $5k tip. If it were that big, I'd probably try to arrange to have a large portion of it spread around all the dealers or something.
I think more in terms of dollars, than percentage. If the payoff is in the $100-$500 range, I would tip $10-20. If it was $5,000, I would tip $100. If the dealer was a friend, I'd tip more. I think of jackpots as rakeback. I've never felt an urge to go tip crazy. − TA
Never considered the amount of time a hand takes to determine tip amount.
Tipping $1 on every win is kinda steep especially on a 1 / 2 table where the casino drops 1 for the jackpot, then takes 5 for the rake. Add a dollar to that and that's $7 a hand leaving the table. It's almost impossible NOT to tip though because of peer pressure. So what I do is, I tip $1 on hand where I win on the turn or river. If I win pre-flop or on the flop, I just don't tip.
This is the only video you guys have made so far that I just totally disagree with. I don't understand why it is acceptable for the players to subsidize the casino's responsibility to pay their workers a decent wage. Also, these dealers are getting paid up to $40,000 a year in tips to deal a game of poker, meanwhile the guy at McDonald's is making minimum wage and busting his ass. No one tips that guy!! You guys even said it yourselves.. tipping is not the way it should be handled, however you guys just do it anyway. If you want to change the culture you going to have to stop tipping.
Just my 0.02
Smokin' Joe could not agree with you more Joe! Tipping is a joke.
If a grinder that plays 2000hrs a year and makes less than 50K/year (that’s huge % of grinders!) goes home and calculates how much $ they’ll save is they:
1. Stop tipping in pots under $30
2. Stop tipping WHEN STUCK FOR DAY
3. Tip $1 max unless pot over $1,000
4. Randomly skip ANY tip.
They will find so much “extra” in their pocket and more bills they can pay.
Less stress in their life.
And so on!
I’m LOVING these rules.
Cheers.
Hey Joe - if I thought not tipping would change the culture, I'd do it. But there's effectively 0% chance that would happen. However, there's a 100% chance the dealer would go home with less money in his/her pocket, and I just can't be party to that. As I told Jim Cheeseborough, you do you. The good news for both of you is that if I ever end up at a table with you, I'll be happy to tip for you (or both of you if all three of us are at the same table). You'll be happy and I'll be ecstatic. --LJ
Bingo, sadly, any action taken against the casino (such as choosing to never tip while playing poker) really only hurts the dealers themselves. The casino really doesn't care if we don't tip dealers, it doesn't hurt the casino in any way at all, except for the fact the dealers may choose not to deal at that casino any longer, and this may result in the casino having problems finding competent dealers to staff their tables... but this would then only hurt the players, as we have to put up with rookie dealers. Hands per hour would drop, and that would hurt the casino somewhat, yes... but overall, withholding of tips is not gonna have any real effect on the place where we'd want the effect to occur... on the corporation itself.
I'm quite TAG/nitty so I don't win as many pots as my looser brethren, therefore I don't end up tipping as often. Because of that I prefer to tip rather than pay some sort of extra tax on all players to increase the wages of the staff.
@@tomohawk52 One of my stock lines to my wife and friends after a mopey session when I win almost zero pots is: I saved a lot of money on tips today. − TA
great episode!
as a recreational player, I am playing poker w/ "money I can afford to lose" and I came to realize that means I can afford to be generous (within my means).
so if I raise w/ AA (or xx!) and everyone folds and I win the blinds, I toss the $1 small blind to the dealer & say "I'll chop it with you".
and If I go through a whole dealer's sit and don't win a pot, I'll shoot them $1 and say "it's not you're fault I can't win" (while laughing, not grumbling)
I had a dealer say "I don't think you played a hand!" and I replied "I appreciate you trying to keep me out of trouble" (laughing).
I will tip bigger (a redbird) on a big pot.
and, like Lee, I have tipped for other players.
the spots that confuse me is if I pick up a high hand bonus for say $200 . . . then I feel awkward. I don't want to 'give away' "too much", but I don't want to look like a jerk.
but I don't obsess on it, as it is really "found money' (though various promotional money is the only reason I'm profitable!)
Great attitude ekw. I think you'll find that your approach works well and makes you many friends in the poker room. Regarding high-hand things, I'd say 5-10% with some kind of cap. I'm not going to tip $100 on a $1k jackpot - maybe $50. --LJ
Good stuff, ewk. I especially like you policy of tipping the dealer and making a cheerful comment after winning no pots from that dealer. It's a +EV play, and I mean financially, by way of keeping you upbeat at the exact moment when the poker gods are testing you. − TA
My rule is, I don't tip if the pot is small because I'm a bankroll nit. Good lord, the dealers must be the winning-est players in the house with their steady stream of ones all day. But that's just me, perhaps if I become a crusher I'll loosen up a bit. LOL Anyhow, my funny tipping story, I sit at 1/3 and win my first pot when someone limps, i raise, everyone folds, and don't tip the hand. An asian lady next to me turns my way and it feels like she's staring at me briefly, then she looks down and grabs a white chip and throws it to the dealer. She apparently was upset I didn't tip the dealer properly so she tipped the dealer for me. LOL I didn't react visibly, but I saw it and inside, I was laughing out loud!!!! She probably was panicking at this guy who just sat down next to her and was gonna be awful bad luck for the whole table. *grin*
I was in a hand when two guys went at each other and it was a huge pot. When it was over, the winner put out a dollar. His opponent looked at him and put up two dollars. The winner looked at him and made it three dollars. The other guy put out two more and said, “Have you ever been 4-tipped before?”
I saw a player as he was pulling in the chips, say to the dealer, “Did I get you?“ The dealer replied, “sir, it never hurts to be sure.”
Hint: never ask the dealer if you got them. In many clubs, they are required to say "Yes." Saying "No" or anything else can get them "written up". If you can't remember if you tipped or not, just tip them again. Seriously. --LJ
BTW - if I had been there for the 4-tip arms race, I'd have tipped both players *and* the dealer. Well played to both of them.
“Have you ever been 4-tipped before?”
whenever I hear a player ask the dealer if he got them I always say "only one way to be sure!"
While I understand the sentiments expressed herein... my personal take on "tipping" is that the casino should pay their employees a living wage. Simple as that. Tipping, to me, is nothing more than a convenient way for the corporation (the house, the casino) to offload their financial obligation onto the customer. The viewpoint Tommy and Lee are expressing here is the correct viewpoint if we accept the fact of paying dealers a lower base hourly wage with the expectation that tips will cover the rest of their "living wage". My point is, we shouldn't accept that thinking, we should urge casinos to pay their employees in full.