“PAN-PAN”. Loss of pressurization at 22000 feet. American A321 returns to Los Angeles. Real ATC
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- Опубліковано 30 тра 2024
- THIS VIDEO IS A RECONSTRUCTION OF THE FOLLOWING SITUATION IN FLIGHT:
13-JUL-2023. An American Airlines Airbus A321 (A321), registration N117AN, performing flight AAL1632 / AA1632 from Los Angeles International Airport, CA (USA) to Boston Logan International Airport, MA (USA) during climb out of Los Angeles, about at 22800 feet, declared PAN-PAN and reported loss of pressurization. The flight crew requested descend to 10000 feet and return to Los Angeles International Airport.
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Timestamps:
00:00 Description of situation
00:17 Initial climb. PAN-PAN, American 1632 reported loss of pressurization
00:55 American 1632 started descent
03:08 American 1632 contacted Approach controller. The pilots reported souls and fuel on board
06:55 AAL1632 Was cleared for the ILS Approach. The pilots contacted Tower controller. Landing
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THE VALUE OF THIS VIDEO:
THE MAIN VALUE IS EDUCATION. This reconstruction will be useful for actual or future air traffic controllers and pilots, people who plan to connect life with aviation, who like aviation. With help of this video reconstruction you’ll learn how to use radiotelephony rules, Aviation English language and general English language (for people whose native language is not English) in situation in flight, which was shown. THE MAIN REASON I DO THIS IS TO HELP PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND EVERY EMERGENCY SITUATION, EVERY WORD AND EVERY MOVE OF AIRCRAFT.
SOURCES OF MATERIAL, LICENSES AND PERMISSIONS:
Source of communications - www.liveatc.net/ (I have a permission (Letter) for commercial use of radio communications from LiveATC.net).
Map, aerial pictures (License (ODbL) ©OpenStreetMap -www.openstreetmap.org/copyrig...) Permission for commercial use, royalty-free use.
Radar screen (In new versions of videos) - Made by author.
Text version of communication - Made by Author.
Video editing - Made by author.
HOW I DO VIDEOS:
1) I monitor media, airspace, looking for any non-standard, emergency and interesting situation.
2) I find communications of ATC unit for the period of time I need.
3) I take only phrases between air traffic controller and selected flight.
4) I find a flight path of selected aircraft.
5) I make an animation (early couple of videos don’t have animation) of flight path and aircraft, where the aircraft goes on his route.
6) When I edit video I put phrases of communications to specific points in video (in tandem with animation).
7) Together with my comments (voice and text) I edit and make a reconstruction of emergency, non-standard and interesting situation in flight.
7:47 For 1632 our plan is we've lost pressurization, (probably something mechanical). After we land we plan (on going to a gate). We don't know what gate yet.
Pinned. Thank you 👍
Sounded to me like he said “we’ve lost pressurization so there’s nothing mechanical”
@@nickphxfan Listening to it again, I think you're right.
same for me, at first i thought "something mechanical", but on replays it was more like "nothing mechanical". hard to confirm that first word tho. "mechanical" is confirmed at least
@@UnshavenStatue From what I've read, the plane air comes from the air conditioning. I wonder if it is at all uncommon for that system to fail.
They were EB out of the basin. Some of those mountain peaks are 11,000ft.+. For everyone saying ATC should've given them 10,000ft. immediately, mountains would be a very good reason to stop descent at 14,000ft. initially.
The approach controller that comes on at about 4:30 and clears him to GAATE is the controller I want in an emergency. Clear and concise and actually seems concerned.
You are so touchy feely. Are you OK sweetie?
Funny. I’d want the controller that is not concerned because he’s not stressed out. 😂
Just clear the boards and give the man FL10. He's explained his dilemma...... 👨🏽✈️✈🌍🎯.
Don't know the area but query minimum altitude for terrain in that area
Technically in case of loss of cabin pressure, you inform ATC, you do not request from ATC. But I think its not that imminent seeing the PAN-PAN and request. If it was a total loss of pressure, I expect they can go on some extra training..
I'm assuming the vicinity is full of planes descending and ascending, so the path needs to keep this plane distant from all other planes. They don't say what traffic at 10,000 is, but I assume it is there.
If this is real time then they got them down to 10,000 within 3 min. Probably an eternity for the passengers but well under the 15 min oxygen mask limit.
@@donnamauer3215 Quite possible. If so, good work. And the pilot's urgency was rewarded for him and all aboard the plane. By the way, what flight has 107 aboard. Some very small jet?
De-Pressurisation and he's lost his frying Pan at the same time.... definitely not a good day.
👈👈🤣🤣 They take their PAN PANS seriously on these channels. Be wary.
After not getting the descent to 10000; he should have just changed to "MAYDAY MAYDAY" and told the controller "we need 10000 now clear the area, we're descending"
Agree, that was a Mayday, not a pan pan!!!
Loss of pressurization is urgent, thus PAN-PAN. There was time to get down below 10000. About halfway through the reserve air time would be when to call MAYDAY, and they didn't need to.
EMERGENCY would have done the trick right out of the gate. Screw the silly words PAN PAN and MAYDAY.
Descending to 10,000 doesn't do much good if it takes you into terrain. Think about it.
@@rhettscal 11,200 which is the highest MSA in that part of SoCal
3:40: here we go again. Lack of coordination between controllers/sectors. Just clogs up the comm resource and distracts crew.
6:13: excellent controller. Crew should not have to fuss around for the ATIS.
7:25 excellent controller. Had fire service at the ready. No unnecessary chatter.
When you are lecturing from your recliner....do you use a bullhorn? Do people get up and leave the room?
Very poor response from the initial controller who did not appear to understand that the aircraft was descending to 10000ft, it was not a request on the part of the pilot. Even worse this poor controller reaction was continueduntil the SolCal approach. A couple of controllers need re-educating and learn that their responsibility is to clear every other aircraft from the path of the emergency aircraft.
😂😂
theres a lot of terrain in that area
tallest peak in the area of their intial PAN-PAN call is 10834 MSL, an immediate descent to 10,000 would've been a CFIT 😂
@@peregrinedevelopments3730 I think it is planes not mountains that are the risk.
@@JimMork i wouldn't be surprised if traffic was also a factor, but the MEF in that quadrant is 11200 so terrain was definitely part of the initial hesitation as well
Appreciate your work.
👍 Thank you for watching 🙂
It blows my mind how well everyone can hear these transmissions in the moment, particularly with aircraft noise and doubly particularly when the pilots need to don masks.
You need to remember that what they are hearing is much, much clearer and higher quality than what we are hearing. These recordings are from private ground based stations with small antennas, often well away from the airfield and probably even the flight paths, while the controllers are transmitting and receiving on large, powerful antennas atop the control tower or another large radio tower and that the signals are focused for communicating with aircraft high up and not on the ground with clear line of sight between the two instead of being blocked by trees, buildings, etc. like the station recording them.
The static and things you hear aren't in the actual transmission and are the result of the interference caused by the signal being blocked by other structures and trees and not being aimed towards them.
These recordings are not from official sources as those aren't normally made public but I guarantee you the recordings made by the tower and the aircraft would be much, much clearer. Everything transmitted and received on the official frequencies is recorded, in part for investigations into incidents and also for training purposes, but those recordings are rarely publicly released.
The pilots are also wearing noise cancelling headsets that block out the worst of the noise around them so the noise of the aircraft doesn't affect what they hear as much.
dawn not don
Actually that’s not correct. It sounds exactly like you heard on this video. Our radios are a big concern because they are horrible.
@@MrFloppy131 nope. It's don. Dawn is a dish detergent and a time of day, don means to put on
As I recalled, the 13 minute depresurization mask normally isn't fed by oxygen cylinders. It is a two factor chemical reaction: "With the chemical generation system, the action of pulling the mask will start oxygen production. Usually, this works by mixing two contained chemicals, sodium perchlorate, and iron oxide. They will react/burn and generate the oxygen that flows to the masks. This is a hot chemical reaction - passengers will likely experience a burning smell as the flow is activated, and the containing compartment will get very hot"
So you decide to cut and paste this here why?????
@@MrThisIsMeToo It pertains to the urgency of descending. They don't equip planes to deal with more than 14 minutes of depressurized flight. He said "I NEED to get down!"
@@JimMork and he had an authorized descent within 3 minutes,
@@brianorca Maybe because he knew "I have to get down"? Or maybe he had some other reason, but it shows that pilots don't need to go with just whatever ATC suggests.
We call them O2 generators
Everyone is so calm, you'd think it was just another day at the office. But for the souls on board who always wondered what it would be like to have the oxygen masks drop.. they got their chance.
Well, as long as the Cabin Altitude is not going over about 16.000 feet, the masks should not be deployed.
You realize those masks are good for 14 minutes. There's some sort of chemical reaction that makes air to breathe. There is no "oxygen reservoir" feeding the masks. When I heard that I thought "Of course, it isn't that good a solution, don't need any reason to avoid trips on planes, but that's one. As unsafe as GA planes are, the fact the don't depend on pressurization is a fact in their favor.
With the chemical generation system, the action of pulling the mask will start oxygen production. Usually, this works by mixing two contained chemicals, sodium perchlorate, and iron oxide. They will react/burn and generate the oxygen that flows to the masks. This is a hot chemical reaction - passengers will likely experience a burning smell as the flow is activated, and the containing compartment will get very hot
@@JimMork "....unsafe...." ?? I have flown general aviation aircraft since 1978 and have never had a problem with safety!! It all depends on the variables and those who are involved in the procedures.
a month earlier (12 June), the same flight number (different aircraft) had to return to LAX after a hydraulics failure.
Once again none of the souls on board or fuels or cause is passed on to the next controller. FAA has to find a way across this problem that unnecessarily adds to Pilot workload.
Digital radio which broadcasts that information? I mean … we’ve had instant messaging services for decades which allow you to broadcast a status and transmit messages (complete with user identification and even authentication!) …
You could even upgrade seamlessly, if a plane or airport doesn’t have new radio equipment you can still fall back to good old analog voice radio.
ATC also always asks for fuel in hours and minutes, like without knowing every birds burn rate how does that help? Commercial always replies with pounds, GA with gallons. Both should be more useful to ARFF than minutes.
I see nothing wrong with any ATC making sure he has the correct info.
A lot of people seem to be defending the first ATC controller not responding to the PanPan and requirement to decend to 10000, due to peaks in the area above 10k. That being the case, I would have thought redirct the plane away from those and get the plane down to 10k. Not a good response until later in my humble opinion.
The aircraft wasn’t in my airspace yet, so I had no control of him. I couldn’t turn, or descend without coordination. Just because you hear something on UA-cam doesn’t mean you understand the situation
Out of curiosity, how is the plane's altitude measured in different scenarios? If the plane is taking off from or flying over Denver for example, is the starting altitude 5,000 feet? When the pilot says they need to get down to 10,000 ft, if the altitude is relative to where they are geographically, wouldn't they need to be lower, like 5,000 feet in high altitude terrain like Denver?
The 10000 is in relation to the sea level. If the terrain requires them to stay higher then they descend to the lowest altitude available in that area.
All these altitudes are above sea level, regardless of where the ground is. So 10,000 feet in denver is only 5,000 above ground, but you'd still ask for 10,000. Makes sense if you think about it. You need a certain pressure to have enough oxygen to breath, so 10,000 feet above sea level is (excluding altimeter settings, etc) a requested 'pressure' altitude. Where the ground happens to be doesn't really matter. (unless the ground is higher than 10,000 feet) The only time you really hear 'above ground' altitudes in aviation is radar altimeter during landing. The "500, 100, 50 20 10" callouts. Those are generated by proximity to the ground.
Planes fly via pressure altitude measured from a pressure sensor. This means 5000 feet pressure altitude over the warm equator is higher above the ground than over the arctic, but they are fairly close most of the time. The pilot requests 10000 feet because that is the pressure humans can typically breathe with no problem. The surrounding terrain doesn't matter when it's pressure altitude. Fun fact: that's why you don't see planes fly over Tibet, because all the terrain is above 10kft, and planes can't get to a breathable pressure without crashing. There are planes that fly there, but it's very risky.
@@QuovatisPSthat was interesting, thx
So I've heard very many emergency situations, but I'm assuming depressurization is rare. Question I have is whether there's a pump somewhere that causes pressurization that seldom fails? I mean, I know they don't really pressurize to normal because ears pop on the way up and the way down. But no container changes pressure on its own. To breathe I think humans need some minimum pressure. So it seems once more that planes are full of artificial engineering depending on maybe the APU (?). And an APU can fail like anything else. Now, with DB Cooper,I assume the plane was exceptionally low permitting some door to be opened for him to exit.
The use bleed air from engine compressor stage to pressurize the cabin. The 400C air it then directed to packs where it is mixed with cold outside air and then fed into the cabin.
Depressurization like this is often due to either a faulty outflow valve or some kind of structural failure.
Planes typically pressurize to 10,000 ft equivalent. Planes aren't airtight either. Many times I can see daylight around the doors, especially on older planes.
@@QuovatisPS Tjhe pressurize to about 6000-8000ft. The masks drop if the cabin altitude exceeds 14000ft or if manually released by pilots.
@@QuovatisPS I read that too much pressure can damage the airplane. Wow, so the pressure required to have humans aboard is a risk for the plane. Wouldn't have predicted that.
It’s not as rare as we would like it to be.
So, I'm not an ATP, but if nobody on board can breathe without (a limited supply of) supplemental oxygen, is that a PAN-PAN or a MAYDAY? Is it merely a PAN-PAN because it ceases to be a problem once you descend to a breathable atmosphere (which I would argue is LOWER than 10,000' MSL after the passengers have already experienced a sympathetic nervous system response)? Does AAL discourage their pilots from calling a MAYDAY?
It is a PAN-PAN as it is not an immediate risk to life, and only requires possible assistance, hence the PAN (Possible Assistance Needed) acronym. Since there is considerable time before life is at risk (usually approx. 15m), and the emergency will only last as long as the plane is above breathable altitude, a MAYDAY needn't be called. However, these are up to pilots discretion to choose between, so one depressurisation may be a MAYDAY, the next might not. At a higher FL, a MAYDAY might be called, and potentially in situations over high terrain where breathable altitude is inaccessible as well.
@@ASPNyan Thanks!
Doesn't seem like much concern or urgency from the ATC to get this aircraft down.
This happened to me. July 4th, 2022, last year. American 5901 from DFW to Panama City (Northwest Florida beaches intl.) We dove from about 22000 to 10000 in about 2 or 3 minutes. Very unnerved seeing the ground approach that fast. I was preparing for death thinking if the pilots do not level out pretty damn quick we will impact the ground in another 2 or 3 minutes. It was a crj 9 or 7 but small regional jet.
LoL, thats not fast. 10k a min is, not 5k.
MasterCarguy44 ok but as a window seat passenger it was very unnerving along with the pressurization issues causing instant headaches and neck pain. Pilots must have gotten down quick enough to not trigger the masks because they did not deploy.
@@jasonperry7970 Glad you're all safe!
Judging by his radio I’d say he’s got more of an issue than cabin pressure.
baby Roy , flight attendant
They dont need to ask to go to 10k feet. Once they declar pan pan pan they drop to 10k asap.
They dont need the okay from atc.
If u dont drop to 10k people start to die.
1987 pressurization tech.
I am shocked how the ATC wanted to delay their decent to 10000. When you loose pressurisation you need to get the plane down - what were they thinking. There also seem to be a lack of co-ordination between various ATC Centres. You can hear the pilots have masks on and they are having to repeat information, when they should be focusing on their emergency.
Mountainous terrain. Descent is to 10,000 or lowest safe altitude if that's above 10,000.
The flight was entering a busy departure sector whose airspace starts at FL240. In order to offer them a safe descent the controller had to clear it with another controller whose airspace the flight was still in. The controller of the high altitude sector doesn’t know the terrain in that area, and doesn’t see the traffic that is below his airspace. There was a short, maybe 5 -10 second delay from the request to the safe clearance to 14000 ft. Everything in these situations must be done by the book because everything is recorded and if something goes wrong, you can get in trouble for not following procedures
My guess is they were thinking:
"I don't want to aim them at a mountain or another airplane."
Passengers aren’t even required to have oxygen under 15k feet but by the way you spelt lose you probably aren’t very educated
I just tell them I’m going down to 10000. I don’t ask. But I use mayday mayday. Not pan.
Hope you tell those mountains.
Loss of cabin pressurisation is a MAYDAY, not a PAN.
Great example as to why those declarations should be eliminated from further use. A simple EMERGENCY call would solve that problem.
@@RLTtizME There are levels of urgency. Perhaps just a bit more training is required. Some pilots seem to think that Mayday is reserved for falling out of the sky in flames.
@@sylviaelse5086 Let’s make it even more complicated by adding 3 more levels of urgency. Maybe Super Pan and Super Mayday and finally Oh Shit Mayday? Emergency works much better. Less is more. Have an Oh Shit Mayday free day. Cheers.
This was a total cluster with ATC. The lack of info sharing between controllers is inexcusable. Really disappointing. US ATC is not performing well here.
Better than the EuroBrit controllers.
You know nothing.
@L.A.Flights
Cause of emergency
I wonder if passengers get the masks too in such a case?
Depending on the situation usually yes. How ever the pilots have 15 minutes to descend to 10000 feet, other wise, stay would run Out of oxygen
As long as the Cabin altitude stays well below 16.000 feet, they should be fine and masks not being deployed.
@@ulrichschenk8202 Who breathes oxygen. I am breathing mostly nitrogen at this moment. I assume those masks produce some mix. And not from some source tank. I hear it is some chemical reaction.
The lack of communication between the ATC was appalling
Yet is all turned out OKEEDOKEE. Stop barking.
You don’t hear the coordination between atc sectors. All you hear is the pilots side. There are 100 things going on in the background.
Does it hurt to say "PAN PAN PAN American 1632, loss of pressurization, need to return to LA, need altitude 10.000"? What's with all the mistery?
Neither a pilot nor a controller, but I was thinking the same. I'm guessing "losing the cabin" is pilot speak for "losing cabin pressure."
I think the depressuration may have been a bit slower than an explosive one. If it would have been more rapid, a simple "MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY AAL1632, lost cabin pressure, emergency decent to 10000ft" would have been good. After that it is the controller´s responsibility to move traffic out of the way.
Wordy. Vague. Perfunctory. They get along just fine sweetie.
If a pilot asks for a rapid descent to 10k atc knows exactly what that means.
107 souls on board means that A321 was not even close to full. Funny, all my AA flights are full! Maybe no one is going and coming from LA any longer?
N117AN is one of 16 A321s in a 102-seat configuration (which will be reconfigured back to 196 seats once the A321XLRs arrive). As such, this is a flight that is sold out or close to it….as this is a 4-class frame with first, business, main cabin plus, and main cabin.
Pan Pan...is that short for panic?
PAN is an acronym for Possible Assistance Needed
Does not sound like pilots have oxygen masks on
I believe captain had it on, i think that was captain. At least it sounded like that.
Every time 1 pilot leaves the front office above 14,500 ft (bathroom, food, short nap on domestic flts), the other must wear 02 mask.
It is above FL350 the pilot remaining must wear a mask, and above FL410 one pilot must be on oxygen even if the other is in the flight deck.
@@slappymcgillicuddy7532 The pilot in the lav must also wear an oxygen mask in case there are toxic fumes.
Above 410*
American Airlines seems to have a disproportionate number of emergencies
Can you show us your data on this surely scientific study you've done?
Largest airline. Tons of flights. It's likely proportional.
@@GLOW31497 scientific study? You must have misunderstood the word “seems”. Typically when that word is used, opinion follows. With that said, take a look at this UA-cam channel and see how many American airline emergencies are declared versus other major airlines. Certainly not a scientific study (as you misunderstood) but in might provide a general idea of how an opinion was formed.
This fool is declaring an emergency and Pan Pan all in one sentence!!!
Yeah...only fools still use the ridiculous call PAN PAN. So silly.
@@RLTtizME Nothing silly about using Pan Pan!!!
My point was that he's declaring an emegency and urgency at the same time!
@@gavinsingh4450 Sorry....it is very silly because it is a non-descript nonsense word. Subscribing to an economy of words....with the most emphasis...a simple EMERCENCY call (or EMERGENCY AIRCRAFT IF YOU PREFER) does the trick. I am confident that upon your thoughtful consideration...you will agree with this modified procedure. Cheers.