You might be the first person I've seen that actually understood, in the moment, what Kosh's meaning was. There's something extra tragic seeing this ageless, enigmatic entity humbled and expressing fear of it's own mortality; a first one, but no different than one of us.
Approaching the fear of mortality from a very different angle - we don't know if Vorlons can die of old age or natural causes. For all we know, Kosh is functionally immortal (not indestructible, but immortal). For all we know, he's never had to come to terms with his inevitable death in the way that we all need to, because it *wasn't* inevitable for him. That adds new layers of tragedy to this episode if it's true - imagine choosing to die for the greater good knowing that you could have lasted until the heat death of the universe if you felt like it.
@@Talisguy Very true, and I've always assumed the Vorlons were at a point of being immortal. As I've seen otherse recently point out, it's also the exact point of Passing Through Gethsemane, too.
That was a great insight. I've seen so many reactions, spoken to many people about the show and this is the first time I've seen someone see what that meant before the end of the episode.
This episode is great. Kosh appearing as a father in dreams multiple times I think shows so much of how this enigmatic character sees his own role with the younger races. He doesn't appear as an impersonal authority figure, but a loving father teaching his children.
I love what JMS did here. A completely innocent sounding title, then Wham!, Wham! and Wham! (Adira, Franklin and then Kosh!. "You do not understand. But you WILL!" You got the right sense out of that. This, to me, was the Kosh version of Passing Through Gethsemane. Great reaction!
Franklin nearly did what the doctor who found the Alien healing device did - the only difference was that Garibaldi was enough of a friend to him to force him to realise his addiction before someone died. Also Londo actually talks to the assassin just before he sees the gurney with Adira's body (he's the man you later see Morden paying off)
Kash showed up to G’kar as his father in G’kar’s dreams in the Dust to Dust episode. A DVD cover character is dead! B5 is better at writing to real life. People come and go….. even important ones. Morden is back to pulling strings while remaining in the shadows. Great reaction, I loved your comments! 😛
such an innocuous episode title for one of the most emotionally devastating thing's I've ever seen on TV - and this is me saying it nearly 30 years after it aired.
The tragedy is that Sheridan wanted to thank Kosh for the Vorlon interference, but Ivanova told him that it was late already and he could do so the next day.
Shelley, sorry to go off topic. I appreciate your varying of your cosmetics. The cyanotic blue just does you no favors, unless you're going for the corpse look.
one thing to watch for the future, which you won't notice but is a cool little thing that Babylon 5 always does. Just remember when the Vorlons attacked, what the lead ship was.
B5 was really great at subverting the trope of making the save at the last second. "Confessions and Lamentations" is the most obvious example of this. The heroes just don't win sometimes. Or sometimes they do, like here, but at a cost that was unexpected or higher than they originally calculated. You're going to see this play out a couple more times in this season and its almost the theme in the fourth season (with two major exceptions that I won't get into for spoilers).
the loss of the Markab turns out to have been far more monumental than people realized at the time - they were one of the active races assisting the Vorlons and Minbari a thousand years earlier; whereas the Narn were just peaceful non-spacefaring observers. Removing the Markab ended up being a tactical disaster, since all they as a race knew of that past war was lost with them.
@@miller-joel I just remember the cool space battle and that was enough to hook me. I figured everything else out by the time I got back here on a rewatch
@@miller-joel oh this is true but to me it feels like the punchline was in German and it went totally over my head. Then I learned German by the second time round so then I understood the joke. The biggest issue I had was actually starting with Sheridan and when I then hit season 1 for the first time being like… who TF is this Sinclair guy?
JMS didn't tell the cast that Kosh was going to die, so this came as a huge shock to them as well. They wouldn't speak with JMS for a week because they were so angry.
A Game of Thrones style moment before GoT was even put to screen. People say B5 is like GoT in space, I say GoT is B5 in medieval fantasy. But B5 has a way better story.
The Song of Ice and Fire is more about the individual stories and also their individual approaches to life and power. GOT the TV series was a lot about interaction of well-played characters and great scenes (especially the very diversely filmed battle scenes and deaths) with less time for the small stories. (Talking about the seasons before the seemingly loved fan service, the cheap plot armour and finally the hated quick wrapping up kicked in). B5 is more about the overall cohesive story arc and moral messages. The individuals could change and there would be a replacement (captain, t., ...).
You might be the first person I've seen that actually understood, in the moment, what Kosh's meaning was. There's something extra tragic seeing this ageless, enigmatic entity humbled and expressing fear of it's own mortality; a first one, but no different than one of us.
Approaching the fear of mortality from a very different angle - we don't know if Vorlons can die of old age or natural causes. For all we know, Kosh is functionally immortal (not indestructible, but immortal).
For all we know, he's never had to come to terms with his inevitable death in the way that we all need to, because it *wasn't* inevitable for him. That adds new layers of tragedy to this episode if it's true - imagine choosing to die for the greater good knowing that you could have lasted until the heat death of the universe if you felt like it.
@@Talisguy Very true, and I've always assumed the Vorlons were at a point of being immortal. As I've seen otherse recently point out, it's also the exact point of Passing Through Gethsemane, too.
@@orthochronicity6428 Indeed. Rather than run away and let someone else cop the flak, he waited for his executioners to come.
Exactly my thought!
That was a great insight. I've seen so many reactions, spoken to many people about the show and this is the first time I've seen someone see what that meant before the end of the episode.
This episode is great. Kosh appearing as a father in dreams multiple times I think shows so much of how this enigmatic character sees his own role with the younger races. He doesn't appear as an impersonal authority figure, but a loving father teaching his children.
And as a father old enough to be physically frail, but wise.
I love what JMS did here. A completely innocent sounding title, then Wham!, Wham! and Wham! (Adira, Franklin and then Kosh!.
"You do not understand. But you WILL!" You got the right sense out of that.
This, to me, was the Kosh version of Passing Through Gethsemane.
Great reaction!
Franklin nearly did what the doctor who found the Alien healing device did - the only difference was that Garibaldi was enough of a friend to him to force him to realise his addiction before someone died.
Also Londo actually talks to the assassin just before he sees the gurney with Adira's body (he's the man you later see Morden paying off)
"Is there anyone else behind you?" Shakes head since he poisoned Adira.
What an episode! 😮 Kosh, Stephen, Adira, the Vorlons finally fighting the Shadows…so much in one episode!
Once again, B5 shows how far it is willing to go to shock the audience
Not to shock the audience, but to tell the story.
@@majbloodnok both go together
Morden bribed his way onto the station, then killed the man he bribed lol
Took back the diamonds and paid off the poisoner.
@@ianstopher9111 Human shadow minions - nothing if not efficient and thrifty
Kosh was Sheridan's mentor who prepared him for things to come. Now, Sheridan has to find his way against the Shadows without Kosh's support.
Remember the words you had just posted. It's a great foreshadow of things to come.
Kosh appeared as G’Kar’s father as well.
Exactly the point I was going to make
@@MrDdaland There’s another example but it’s a spoiler.
"Kosh was like our Yoda. Or Obi Wan. I can't believe he died!"
Wait...... 🤔😆
Kash showed up to G’kar as his father in G’kar’s dreams in the Dust to Dust episode.
A DVD cover character is dead! B5 is better at writing to real life. People come and go….. even important ones. Morden is back to pulling strings while remaining in the shadows. Great reaction, I loved your comments! 😛
such an innocuous episode title for one of the most emotionally devastating thing's I've ever seen on TV - and this is me saying it nearly 30 years after it aired.
The tragedy is that Sheridan wanted to thank Kosh for the Vorlon interference, but Ivanova told him that it was late already and he could do so the next day.
Shelley, sorry to go off topic. I appreciate your varying of your cosmetics. The cyanotic blue just does you no favors, unless you're going for the corpse look.
one thing to watch for the future, which you won't notice but is a cool little thing that Babylon 5 always does. Just remember when the Vorlons attacked, what the lead ship was.
my personal assessment: red was the color of the "warrior general" type/caste of Vorlons; seems born out by later attitudes.
true, but remember that particular ship, it will play a part later in the series.@@ZakhadWOW
"Consequences" should be the sub-title of the series - every action leads to something....
B5 was really great at subverting the trope of making the save at the last second. "Confessions and Lamentations" is the most obvious example of this. The heroes just don't win sometimes. Or sometimes they do, like here, but at a cost that was unexpected or higher than they originally calculated. You're going to see this play out a couple more times in this season and its almost the theme in the fourth season (with two major exceptions that I won't get into for spoilers).
Always worry if the B5 title is XXX and YYY
the loss of the Markab turns out to have been far more monumental than people realized at the time - they were one of the active races assisting the Vorlons and Minbari a thousand years earlier; whereas the Narn were just peaceful non-spacefaring observers. Removing the Markab ended up being a tactical disaster, since all they as a race knew of that past war was lost with them.
Always a fun episode. Tragic and full of meaning, it's a marker along the highway of the whole story.
This was the first episode of B5 I ever saw. What a place to start!
Worst place of all. You'd have no sense of who's who, or what Kosh's sacrifice means to the other characters or the story.
@@miller-joel I just remember the cool space battle and that was enough to hook me. I figured everything else out by the time I got back here on a rewatch
@@chrisnielsen9885 Yeah, but it's like hearing the punchline to a joke before the setup. And there's never going to be a first time ever again.
@@miller-joel oh this is true but to me it feels like the punchline was in German and it went totally over my head. Then I learned German by the second time round so then I understood the joke. The biggest issue I had was actually starting with Sheridan and when I then hit season 1 for the first time being like… who TF is this Sinclair guy?
Oof, this one always hits hard. So much going wrong all at once.
The one positive note about 3x15 is that it precedes 3x16
JMS didn't tell the cast that Kosh was going to die, so this came as a huge shock to them as well. They wouldn't speak with JMS for a week because they were so angry.
Morden is an evil mastermind who knows exactly how to manipulate Londo.
A Game of Thrones style moment before GoT was even put to screen. People say B5 is like GoT in space, I say GoT is B5 in medieval fantasy. But B5 has a way better story.
"Game of Thrones in space" seems a pretty accurate way to describe Babylon 5.
@@michaelbowen2343 Except B5 doesn't completely fall apart in the end. It rewards its audience instead.
The Song of Ice and Fire is more about the individual stories and also their individual approaches to life and power. GOT the TV series was a lot about interaction of well-played characters and great scenes (especially the very diversely filmed battle scenes and deaths) with less time for the small stories.
(Talking about the seasons before the seemingly loved fan service, the cheap plot armour and finally the hated quick wrapping up kicked in).
B5 is more about the overall cohesive story arc and moral messages. The individuals could change and there would be a replacement (captain, t., ...).
turns out GRRM is a fairly shitty story teller - engaging as hell, but overall quality very lacking.
Oh, your so close to mind blowing enlightenment. Just a few more episodes.
They killed -Kenny- Kosh, those bastards!
A quick question are you going to be doing a reaction to the animated Babylon 5 special that just came out?
I think you will like the next one. Not as deppressing. But I'll say nothing more. :)
For wrestling fans.
Babylon 5 WWE!
Why do you think Franklin is gone for good?
Thanks for the great reactions and commentary. I have so much I want to tell, but spoilers. WAFO...
WHAM
Wake me up before you go-go to Z'Ha'Dum.
❤🧡💛💚💙💜
Adira was fridged to advance Londo's storyline.
Adira being poisoned to provide motivation for Londo, seems very much a case of fridging.