I’ve learned more in the last couple of years watching you than any tv show. Whatever money you make from theses videos(and I hope you do )you have earned every penny bro. You are a teacher. Better than any tv show or college course. More power to you my friend👍
There are 2 slotted screws accessible from the outside of the engine, lined up with the rocker pivots that will align the rocker alignment, and when over tightened, will make the rocker pivot points "stiffer" over time, with wear (and possibly abuse and lack of lubrication" may require adjustment) that will likely help to keep the pads that ride on the cam properly centered, and eliminate the uneven wear on the rocker pads, and the camshaft. I would clean, and gently resurface the rocker pads, and clean any burs from the cam shaft profile, then polish both surfaces with fine emery cloth, drain the engine oil, and use the used engine oil to flush any "particles" from the resurfacing back through the bottom of the engine case, then put some clean oil in the bike, reassemble, and readjust the valve lash to compensate for any material you removed during the resurfacing...All this could be because someone over tightened the valves, and the cam and followers never really got a chance to get the proper oil film to build up and protect the metal surfaces, since they were in constant contact, oil couldn't get between them to properly lubricate, and the build up of heat, as shown in the browning of the cam followers, loosened the valve lash adjustment to beyond spec, making the problem even worse over time, and the engine got louder and more embarrassing to run....At this point, replacing parts gets expensive, and used parts could have the same failure, so working with what you have, and polishing those parts will likely yield similar results to paying for replacement used parts that MAY even be in worse condition....The rocker arms seemed a bit too lose, and not really fixed along their pivot axis. they shouldn't be tight, but those seemed extra "floppy", and not properly aligned. the noise could be the rocker arms sliding back and forth, being pushed by the followers and the uneven cam wear, and knocking against the side stops. On a side note, have you tried using a mechanic's stethoscope to further pinpoint the source of the ticking sound? there's an inexpensive mechanic's stethoscope at harbor freight that works well, and it's only like $10 (or at least it WAS when I bought one a few years ago...) A Mechanic's stethoscope is also good for finding bad alternator bearings without removing the belt, or locating bad wheel bearings, etc. once you have one, you'll use it all the time.
Well quite. I have a Honda ex650 generator purchased 2nd hand in 2009. I ran it once that year and put it away. 11 years later I hauled it out and it started on the 3rd pull, on 12 year old petrol.....which is still in the tank. Ran and used it again last autumn, started 2nd pull. Honda eh?
Unfortunately, the Honda rocker arms and camshafts of that era were only surface hardened and prone to eating each other if the oil was run too low, or out. Once the scoring starts, it's all over. Web Cams out here in California can hard weld and regrind your cam and rockers, however it's not a "cheap" fix. The XR500 and 250s from 1979-1982 used the same style of cylinder head, cam and rocker arrangement, as well as I believe the ATC 350X and maybe a few others. You might check into them and see if by some stretch of the imagination, they might use the same cam and/or rockers. Also, the problem with using a different rocker cover is that the head and cover are machined as a unit and often times won't be right for a different part. I once tried that with a Suzuki DR650ES. Bolted a different rocker cover on, then the cam wouldn't spin. Good luck with whatever you do. I hope you get it repaired as that quad deserves a second chance at life. You said it yourself, it wants to live. :) --Bruce
When I had a few of these engines back in 2000ish, I was able to get replacement rockers from honda oem. I replaced one cam as well, but they are usually okay. This era also was renowned for Hondas chocolate cams that would melt in the heat.
He thinks it will last a year as is, and I think if he uses a good, modern oil with lots of zink and perhaps other additives, he can go farther than that. Does that have an oil filter? He will want to keep any wear particles out of the oil with either a good filter or frequent changes. the polishing he suggested might help too and shimming out that side play.
I bought a Honda XR200RE new: it threw a spaz and I took it in for repairs. While the mechanic was taking a preliminary look at it the parts guy came by and said "Oh, ya got another hand-grenade in, huh?". He got a NotInFrontOfTheCustomer look from the mechanic. Woe woe woe. Repaired under warranty but it sucked that Honda was doing the testing of its new radial four valve head via the customer. It did run fine after the repairs, I should say.
To be perfectly honest, that machine is in fantastic condition for a 1980's ATV, and classic Hondas are very, very hot right now. The idea that it may be pushed aside for lack of a camshaft/rockers is kind of silly. Even if it needs a head, I would hunt down some parts. The top end is very, very similar to the ATC350X three wheeler 1985-1986. I assume the valves in the 4x4 are smaller and the cam different....but I could be wrong. A 350X head will likely bolt on. Lastly, the damage may be simply from running super hot on crap or insufficient oil, but it may also have fallen victim to the backwards oil filter at some point. It is easily possible to put the cartridge in backwards....and a lot of people did
As soon as you started fiddling around through those inspection ports, I said to myself, “why are you doing this, we all know you are going to have that whole cover off in another ten minutes!” Love you videos, Mustie. Thanks for all you share with us.
@@garymallard4699 Mustie has said many times in his videos he doesn't want to read the the manuals unless its a last resort. He wants to figure it out himself, makes for more interesting videos.
i bought a 97 300 4x4 that had been overhauled, the previous owner had changed oil, put the new oil filter in backward and damaged the engine. that is what the dealer told me anyway ! 20 years later I am still using it .I appreciate all your videos a 67 seven year old jury rigger hobbyist. thank you,
Just in case dad is watching this with me this morn, I love you. Found out he watches you too and I know he at home. Been pretty sick, fighting cancer, low kidney function and such. Nice video both you and Jason. Thanks for sharing!
Those rockers are not supposed to have any side to side play. It's a clear sign that something is wrong in the head probably caused by oil starvation. Great video mustie!
+1 Side play looks baaad... Although this noise doesn't sound exactly like my bmw airhead does when it has excessive sideplay, so maybe I'm wrong! But yeah, I have definitely chased 'tappety' sounds and found that it's rocker side play and/or incorrect rocker position (over the valve stem) that's making the noise, rather than wide valve clearance.
@@janramonmartin It's a honda thing. My 2012 500 rubicon has similar side to side play. Keep in mind this is not the direction of any force, and is of no cause for concern.
I’m not really an ATV/ Dirt Bike guy but after binge watching a bunch of your videos I may start fixing them! Thanks for such great content and information!
When it ran on that stale gas I was blown away. I was thinking, Honda Power! Honda should use this video as promotional material. with some editing, of course. Can't let anyone see those rocker arms. Because they're spent. I wonder if they could be hard faced and ground?
I have one of those, exactly the same. My Dad bought it brand new in '86 and now I've owned it since '02, when he bought a bigger quad. Mine still runs perfectly and it's never had any issues other than flushing the front brake fluid a couple of times over the years. It was always kept in a garage so it's still in great shape. Those old Honda's run forever.
Those old Hondas oil filters can easily be installed backwards and usually the person notices it when it starts smoking or the valvetrain gets loud... The camshaft,cam journals,rocker arm tips are the first to succumb to oil starvation... I have several complete used ready to bolt on and go heads with cams etc for the 86-92 350s if anyone is looking...
I have a few of these spanning over the years, and that tapping sound does not completely go away ever. I don't know if it is a Honda Fortrax thing, but it may ease up but will never dissipate completely
Those old TRX 350 are renowned for their ruggedness. I bought an 87 needing a timing chain. After some research decided to convert to propane. Rebuilt the head and put a 10:1 piston in it. Runs outstanding. Been mainly plowing snow for 4yrs and is just a tank. Great bike!
I had an German ford car with rockers worn out. It was a junk car just for fun driving in the fields. For the heck of it I dismounted the rockerarm bridge and put some weld on them. Filed them down and polished. They did hold upp for many years and when it finaly was time to scrap the car I had to check my weldings. They looked like it never hapend. Love your videos Mustie.
I got nothin' that hasn't been said already with more expertise than mine. Reading through, no one seems worried about just reassembling and riding. Just a noise issue (which is probably torture for someone with your skills). So, either way, you have something special there. Thanks for another great Sunday morning.
That was the first year 4x4 four wheeler from Honda. 87 they started the fourtrax name. They started coming with racks in 87. I Grew up riding one around Alaska in the 80s. Great machines. My dad had it from 87- just a few years ago.
I love how you are always so careful to not fill the cylinder with junk. I see some videos where they are so eager to start the machine that they don’t clear it out first. Order of operations are critical here.
I have a 1994 Honda Fourtrax. I haven't ridden it much in the last 15 years. It just sits in the shed. Every year I do put it in the yard and it starts without any effort. I have a friend with a 1987 fourtrax and he still uses it to this day to plow driveways. These are awesome machines!
Honda just makes engines that run, no matter what usually! My 2001 Honda Rancher 350ES is just about to turn over 800 miles!! LOL i dont use it much. Original tires still, they look like new but are a little hard, not really soft feeling. I might get some new ones when she gets to 1000 miles, might be a year or 3 though!! haha
Those cam issues were a common problem for several years among multiple similar engines from Honda in the 80's. One solution was to modify the cam by adding a set of roller bearings to the cam. Welding up the cam followers and then having them hardened also fixed the wear issue between the cam shaft and the followers. It might be worth your while to investigate that option. I currently have a '81 XL500S bike that I rebuilt the engine on some years ago and it still runs perfectly. Great motors!
Wasn't he able to adjust the tappets to get clearance? So are you saying the cams themselves get oil starved and wear or are they made of a soft steel?
@@chrisstratton3430 The cams are ok, but the camshaft runs in basically a bushing in the head. So the camshaft gets play in the bushings, picks up metal from the head, and burns up. The roller bearings solve this issue. The second issue is that the rocker arms are too soft, so they wear down where the cams contact them, burning them up. Welding the contact points up, then getting them case-hardened solves the second issue. So just resetting the tappets is a very short-term solution to two problems that will eventually result in the camshaft and the head becoming scrap. The rocker arms are no longer made, and are like unicorn pee - unobtainium.
@@garyvanvuuren199 what do you suggest, tig welding a layer of steel to the contact points? How would you know how thick of a layer and how to shape it? And wouldnt case hardening and quenching the rocker arms twist them? IMO it's not like they are cast but rather precission machined. The same with fitting the roller bearings. Would you just eyeball it or use a lathe? To me it sounds like a good theory but has anyone ever made it?
@@trollmcclure1884 I don't know enough about welding to give you a good answer on that one. Regarding the roller bearing conversion; several years ago I took a head and cam to a machine shop with the request for a roller bearing conversion. They put the rocker box on the head and machined the cam apeture to the correct outer diameter of the roller bearing, and machined the cam shaft down to the correct inner diameter. They also welded and hardened up the rocker arms contact surfaces for me. This was back in South Africa, but I'm certain that shops in the US could do it too. That completed head ran perfectly for a very long time in my race-bike.
Can't beat those Japanese engines. I have a Subaru Robin engine in my 1949 Cushman Highlander motor scooter...runs like a watch. I bought that old scooter in 1960 from my dad. I was 14 at the time. it's gone thru 2 cast iron flat head Cushman engines. I ride old Harley's too but I love that old Cushman and still ride it. I'm 76!
real Honda quality, they always start, unfortunately this one has some mechanical issues. Hopefully we will get part 2 and see it doing what it was ever made for!
I know where there are 2 complete good 350 heads with good cam journals, good valves, good camshafts,good rocker box covers ready to bolt on if interested..
14431-HC0-000 14441-HC0-000Is the part number for the rockers.Caltric Camshaft Kit Compatible with Honda Trx250X Trx 250X Fourtrax 250 2X4 1987-1992 is the cam the only difference in the cam is the 250X had the bearings on the end that you can take off type this info in Amazon the rocker arms I sent you the part number for are for a 250X also 87 thank you buddy for all the great videos it's got me through a lot of projects hopefully this helps you out if you have any questions just ask and I will do my best to answer them I have a bunch of these motors out in the garage
If you would like I can always go out there and measure the cam where the bearing sits and then you can cross reference that with your measurements on your cam just if you want to make sure for yourself to double check I can do the same thing with the rockers that way it gets a little bit of questioning out of the way I have the cam and rockers sitting on a bench right now very accessible always have an extra set
These were such high quality, and at the time very expensive machines. We beat the crap out of them on the farm, both the 3 and 4 wheelers, they never failed. I don't think folks can appreciate the quality and craftsmanship and probably would not pay it now.
You may take a look at cross-reference parts numbers. The TRX250 used the same base engine / components as the ATC250ES, the camshaft is the exact same part number.
@@bioniclife Yeah wasn't entirely sure, even tho the 350 has the same part number across multiple years and models. 86-87 fourtrax, 87 fourtrax 350D and both years of the ATC350X 85-86.
..... my father ( an inspiring old school engineer) machined/ground/re-hardened the cam bearing surfaces, bored the head and cover and made bushes to resolve a similar problem, the outer bush was split, they were all pinned to the head and cover respectively - it was the play in the cam bearings that resulted in the clacking from the rockers
I had the exact same ATV, I got when I was in Middle School (1994). I remember it being rather quick and very capable. Hopefully you can get it up and wheelin again. The design was ahead of its time. Still looks great!
I had this exact ATV as a kid. 1986 FourTrax, 350 cc with fulltime 4x4. It developed a loud clatter in the top end. Had to replace many of the timing components. Wish my parents kept it as it was a solid machine.
I still have mine, havent had it running for years, just sitting in my garage. Ive thought about selling it, but toyed with getting it back up and running.
Still got mine too, it’s in the garage right now. Have cleaned the carb and contacts in the ignition system as it was intermittent and it runs well now. Just trying to get an after market exhaust muffler to fit, it requires a “ bit of adjustment “😬. My dad bought it new in 1986 and we have always had it on the farm but it sat for a long while hence the issues. Parts can be tricky to find here in the UK though. 👋
I believe the cam and rocker faces are case hardened, so it's just the surface that is hard, once that is worn through it's soft, if you re-face it, it won't last long. Bob .UK
Exactly ... not worth the trouble given access vs time left w/o the hardened surface. The Cam might be worth resurfacing but not the rockers; too much trouble/expense to "spray weld"/regrind.
I have a TRX 350d 1987 runs like a champ I had to drag a ton of large limbs to the burn pile from the ice storm never had a problem.just an awesome 4 wheeler.
Thanks for my Sunday Mustie1 fix! Sure looks like a solid machine that would be worth putting some time, effort, and a little money in to. I was sure we'd see ya flying through the snow with it before the video ended 😂! Oh well, maybe in a future video! Thanks for taking us through the process!
That is pretty much the holy grail of old utility hondas. Those 4x4s would never get stuck…and trying to find one in that good of shape is very hard now. Don’t sell that one mustie
I literally just did an overhaul on one of these - same model from 1986 - last year. That sound is the timing chain... for sure - Its about $30... The tensioner has a special way that it is set and checked (can't remember - but you can download the service manual) - and if its all the way in, regardless, you need a new chain. I posted a vid to the Honda forums and they nailed it right away from that sound. You can also get a new head on eBay for a couple hundred bucks and swap out the rockers. These engines run forever.... lap the valves, swap the top end rockers, replace the chain and you are good for another 30 years.
Ok, be honest 95% of guys would have taken that thing for a rip in the snow before taking it apart and fixing it the right way. It started somewhat easy. That’s why I watch. Love this channel.
Nice vid mustie, with the light on it, it shows up the trough in the 2 pads creating an edge where the cam lob is hitting it. We used to get it on the vauxhall / opel over head cam engines the cam followers/ buckets would have a grove / chanel worn in it and the engine would sound like a coin box, but we ground the surface flat and the engine sounded like new again. The only problem was it wasn't hardened anymore and would west down fair quickly again but I would grind them pads flat with a curve on them to see if that was the problem and then order some more.
Hey Mustie. I have a 86 Honda VF500 that has the "siamese" rocker arms like these also. The shop manual for it says that both valves need to have feeler gauges unter the adjusters during the adjustment process. If you don't, they'll both wind up tight because one adjuster will get pressed against the valve because of the clearance between the rocker arm and the rocker arm shaft.
I have a 1998 BMW R1200 C MC also Honda V65 Magna they both have multiple valve rocker's and need to be adjusted @ the same time with two feeler guages @ the same time it's a pain but the only way it comes out right. good video this reminds me why our hoards keep growing!
Hondas in general had rocker arms like that. My 2012 has the same style, but the service manual makes no mention of the double feeler gauge method. It is pretty easy to keep checking back and forth to see when they both have the same small amount of drag.
I had a 250x chew up a couple cams just like that. I was so confused as I had plenty of oil in it. I tested the oil pump and it was working. Turns out after a few more cams it somehow had a intermittent working oil pump. I got a new oil pump and never had to replace the cam or rockers. You can get a “Web Cam” for around $200 also
Sadly that motor also was in the 85/86 350x racing 3 wheeler(top end is the same, just the bottom case is different. Bottom end internals also the same). People are using the 4 wheeler motors for parts to bring the trikes back to life. And the biggest issue for those style motors is people put the oil filter in backwards and running them without oil flow
A couple of small fine files to deburr the edges of the rocker arm and some extra fine grit sanding paper to polish the surfaces might get enough material shifted to allow the engine to run a couple of more years. The thing is, it runs the way it is. Do the polish job, put it together run it and then look for a rocker box complete with cam….
This was actually the second year of this machine, the first being a 1985 model. I bought the exact same machine new in 1986, yes 36 years ago. My son rebore the engine and added a high performance piston He still has the same 4x4 at his cottage which he uses on a regular basis. This was by any standard the best 4x4 machine made for its time. We have since added an aftermarket muffler and timing chain, everything else is OEM. I still refer to this Honda as being amazing, every time I go to his cottage.
The 1984 TRX 200 were the first 4 wheeler. They had a weld on front end from the factory that changed the left over three wheelers that where now illegal in North America into 4 wheelers at the factory in Japan. My son has one and you can see the original three wheeler frame and where they welded on the front end. When the last three wheelers arrived from Japan they were illegal as they had been in shipping when the laws changed and they had to be destroyed. They got buried in their crates in landfills. I own two of the 1986 TRX 350D. Tough wheelers but they have their issues.
I'm surprised that once you heard the clacking you didn't stop and drain the oil to check for rainbow metallic. I always liked to check the oil health and view the drain plug to see how much metal is visible and pull the filter if it has one.
Ronnie Heit on my Wife's tablet here Awesome way to spend a Sunday afternoon before the Superbow. Watching Herr Docktor Professor Mustie1 resurect another dead off road bone breaker. You can get the cams online for 60 dollars each new. Plus darn near most of the other parts.
When I owned a honda years ago in the supplied toolkit there was a tool to adjust valves in it They look like exactly the same square size It used to fit through another supplied box spanner
I had a twin to that Honda, the plastics were not too good but were all there. The inside of the gas tank was real rusty. It had brake and axle problems , but the Engine did run real good. I sold it as is for $1,600.00 cash this past summer.
You'r right it is hard to say what to do in this case. Because it's not beat to crap and it's complete I'm thinking that it may be worth fixing it. You are fortunate enough to make half back upon selling . I like the way you naturally try to save as many oldies with all the goodies intact. It is a great looking machine so it does show that it got some love in it's life. In the end I say why not !!. thanks for a great time on this adventure . Cheers
Seeing those rocker arms reminded me of a 1992 Sunbird that I used to have. I was driving around and it started coughing and sputtering and had almost no power. I took it in to a shop and they told me I needed a new cam. Since those were extremely hard to find it sat for a couple years. When I finally decided to look at it again I found that the rocker arms were worn very similar to what you have there. $35 later for new rockers and it was back on the road again. I've learned from you that almost any engine can be made to run again if you're suborn enough.
My Honda Big Red everything was double clamped. Honda told me it was to keep out water since it floated, and that I could drive into water up to the air cleaner. It worked, I drove mine on the Delaware River out to the sand bar several times. Until my grandmother caught me. Video brings back great memories.
Had the same model .. and it sounded pretty much like that from day one. The worst the gas, the worse the knock. Could only run Supreme gas to get it to not sound like it was about to disintegrate. I was told, but never took mine apart to confirm, that the "rattle" might also have been wrist pin slop, and was why better fuel helped. Also, cam tensioner rattle was common. Either way, your bike Sounds Normal. Cold weather (below freezing) was the downfall to these .. choke to start it .. but dont touch the throttle.. if you do, it will flood, die and be a bugger to get cleared again - especially with all the air tubing and passages in place ... the length of piping and filtering almost acts like a choke already. R is 1 down from Neutral (with R sfaety engaged) 1st is Up from Neutral Not surpised in the least it ran on the old fuel. Thanks for sharing 🇨🇦
Of all the youtubers I've watched dearly. Slowly they change and morph and my views dwindle. Mustie1 is still the same ol guy I just hangout in the garage and fix stuff with. Or do new adventures with. Like buying crap bucket trucks or playing with tractors.
Myself I would put it back together with some assembly lube and run some thicker oil with zinc additive added to cushion the rockers and cam. If I were going to keep it for myself and could not find better parts. Good video man can't wait for more on this one.
1:13:15 that worn cam journal on the far side will be an issue...I had the same problem with my 5.4L...soon as you get any wear on the aluminum the oil doesn't flow properly and the cam bounces and moves. The one journal on my head wasn't 1/10th that bad and all the mechs said it was trash. You can get them repaired via "spray welding" where they apply liquid aluminum to it then re-bore it and polish it but considering a whole used engine was $400, used heads $250.0 each and repairing was $800...I trashed that head. One reason for it happening on the 5.4L is that they are well known to have issues with that cylinder (#2) as it is the 2nd last in the oil passage/travel so the oil is full of crap and hot by the time it gets there. That looks like it is the same issue with this engine....if it was low on oil or something prevented it from getting oil for even a minute is enough to cause permanent damage. I can't help but wonder what the journal attached to the head looks like under the cam...it's probably chewed like the one on the valve cover. If that's the case, the head is toast as well. You could re-surface the rockers but if the cam is bouncing around, the smoothed out surface won't last long. You can run it as is, and then keep your eye on a used head or engine, maybe one will pop up local and cheap......
Hey Mustie, I have a four wheeler just like this (350 CC). Mine needed new rings when I bought it. I broke down the engine and redid all the gaskets and seals and adjusted the valves.........STILL have the same knocking sound you've got! I just ride it like I can't hear the knockin' and have for a couple years now. No breakdown yet, knock on wood!
I had a 1982 XL500R that always made a similar, perhaps less extreme ticking sound. You notice it more with stock exhaust. I never committed surgery on her and after 10 years of riding her hard on and off road, sold her running fine. Kept oil fresh and clean. That top end is fairly bullet proof. I like the cam-removal-resurfacing plan if anything. Then run synthetic oil with zinc addative. Cool video.
You've beat me to it. Yeah, it's a Honda ! What do you expect ? And we had to wait only 'till 2:19 for the famous Victory laugh ! 🤣🤣 PS 26:51 Definitely a Honda. Look at that top notch engineering ! Heck, even has an oil cooler and fan. In 1986 ! Awesome find.
I have a Honda 350 just like this. I got it Christmas of 1985 but the atv is a 1986. I still use it every month 36 years later. Mine still has the original tires on it.
I had that exact ATV with that exact Cycle Country plow. I regret selling it, although I kept the plow and modified it for my Yamaha Wolverine. Nice find
Having just re-built two Chinese ATV's for my kids (SunL 110 and Baja 90) I am envious of you working on an old Honda. The old 80's-90's Japanese stuff is hard to shake a stick at for reliability and over-all quality of the hardware.
@@randombuilds8336 Lucky! The Baja 90 was $400 not running... luckily the previous owner had installed the slide in the carb backwards and it was stuck open... 5 minutes later my 7 year-old was running the thing around the yard. The SunL 110 was a basket case for $200 with another quad for parts... spray bomb and a head refresh (lapped the valves, some copper spray on the gaskets and a new battery) and it's been reliable for the past 2 years so far! They aren't bad little bikes... but for a 5 year old and 7 year old I'm not spending over a grand on something Japanese that they'll outgrow. Haha.
@@AimlessMoto Definitely, there's a reason the pitbikes and 4 wheelers are popular. Even new it's under $1k for the kid sized ones, and they are pretty reliable with an occasional oil change. The xr200 cost me $350. Needs a tire, piston, bore, valves, cam chain, gasket set and cables. But it's still a good deal because running bikes are still way over priced.
I have owned and repaired many of these.The plastics look great and if the frame is good,the cheapest and easiest fix is to get another engine.I see alot of engines in my area because the frames usually rust out in my northern area but the motors are bullet proof as long as you keep oil in them.See alot scrapped.
Celebrate the small victories you got the bolt out. Also celebrate the small victories MBTS is back. So hard to work on my side as you did under the machine. Let's cross our fingers for a pit (with STEPS) at least a 1/2 pit for the bay Be good be happy be safe.
Hi Mustie, Way back in the eighties Ford had the same issues with the ohc Cortina engines! numerous company's sold various cam kits, oil pipes and rockers, Citroen & Peugeot also had problems with soft rockers. You may be able to get an old time shop to rework & re harden your rocker arms, Hope this helps.
I had one. The valve guides were super tight, like freeze the valve to get it in, and the valve would stick down. I had worked on by a dealer and had to sign a form acknowledging that it wasn’t a factory defect. After repair I ran synthetic oil in it. When it was time to start it after sitting a while, I would slowly turn it with the kick start lever a few times to make sure the valve would snap back and not bend. Then it was ok to electric start it until the next long sleep, like 1 to 3 months. Great vehicle! I plowed my 1200 foot driveway for years with it.
I've heard some of the old 3 and 4 wheelers had the same engines as their dirt bike counterparts of the same displacement, except they were detuned quite a bit. Apparently the quads have a dished piston vs the dirt bikes flat top piston which provides higher compression. Excellent video as always *Mustie1*
The common cause of that cam failure is riding wheelies or long steep uphill climbs. Fixed a Honda 250 that looked exactly like that in '92 using JB Weld/graphite from a #2 pencil for the aluminum and someone Tig welded up the rocker pads. It was still going in 2010 so, it is repairable. The only things I don't know is what they Tig welded the pads with and what the adults coated the cam with so it didn't stick to the JB weld. My life experience makes me suspect PVA but the person who did it has since passed. I'm envious, you have quite the time capsule there.
Thanks Musty for another awesome video! My observation: every time you pulled the spark plug boot off, or bumped into the spark plug, it seemed awful loose in it’s threads. I wouldn’t think that that alone could have made that loud of a clatter, but that can’t be good for the threads?
About 20 years ago I bought a Honda CX500 with 500 miles on it. Guy bought it for his wife and she was scared to ride it. Eventually they sold it to a friend who only rode it home, parked it on a covered patio for a few years before selling to me. I knew all three of them, so had the complete history of the bike. Problem was a lot of the rubber and plastic parts had gone bad over the years, old gas had gummed things up, the oil in the crankcase had turned to grease and condensation had caused rust on chrome parts and inside the tank. I did a lot of work on it, but quickly found replacement Honda parts were ridiculously expensive. New floats for the carbs set me back $45 each, should have cost $15! But you gotta have what you gotta have! New tires and mufflers, I got it running good and rode it for a few years then finally sold it with another few thousand miles on the odometer. 30 years old with only avout 3500 miles! It was a decent bike, but the gearing meant it wasn't very much fun at California freeway speeds. (Drive shaft, too... Difficult to change ratios.)
My suspicion is the rocker arms were treated "before" they were surface ground and matched. Heat treating and hardening should always be done after the surface grinding has been done. When you harden steel, it only hardens the surface to 1-10mm, that's it, the entire part is not hardened. The term hardened steel is often used for a medium or high carbon steel that has been given heat treatment and then quenching followed by tempering, giving a stronger tinsel strength to the outer surface. Once the steel is hardened, then you can tweak the surface with fine abrasive for smoothing as long as you do it evenly and don't break the surface. My reasoning for this theory is it seems to affect all the rocker arms of these engines, as evidence of the resale price and rarity of replacements in good condition.
Eh. That depends on the alloy, 4xxx series steels are through hardening. And given the crossection of the rockers, even 1045 would be fairly well through hardened.
We ran into a similar problem on 2 Honda AN 600 twins we used to have. The timing chain tensioner was on a shaft bedded in the aluminum case halves and given enough miles the shaft would wear a groove in the case. Solution turned out to be having a machinist mill out the case and inset a bronze block to act as a much more durable bearing surface.
Common Honda issue from way back when due to a lack of appreciation of how important cam chain tension is. The chains also have a finite life and need to be replaced once they are out of tension adjustment promptly as they tend to fail somewhat abruptly as I found out whilst overtaking at 60 mph. Luckily the cam chain fell neatly right down the tunnel into the sump without jamming anything, so no wheel lockup, just rather eerie silence. The actual adjustment process was simplicity itself, but often ignored, and a slack chain not only wore grooves into the cam chain tunnel, but also mangled the tensioner.
Man! Some, terrific input from , viewers to resolve the tapping noise!Sanding down the pads/ cam , braking down of oil/ lubricant, running out, causing heat problem.From the remarks, you should be able to sand/ grind, to resolve the tapping problems.Without buying parts! All said ,this apparently is a great Honda!! It sounds like, it will be worth your effort with the Emory cloth! You, could have years of fun, with this four wheel, quard/ bike , at your summer cottage down by the lake! Go , for it! 😀👍
I’ve learned more in the last couple of years watching you than any tv show. Whatever money you make from theses videos(and I hope you do )you have earned every penny bro. You are a teacher. Better than any tv show or college course. More power to you my friend👍
Mustie is a MASTER , hands down to him 👌👌
I am continuously learning from Mustie1. He always keeps it interesting
@@Frank-Thoresen He explains everything so well like theres a person right next to him , this guy is a Legend 👌
i'm a full time mechanic and i regularly use mustie's techniques that i've learned by watching his videos.
Couldn't agree more 👏
There are 2 slotted screws accessible from the outside of the engine, lined up with the rocker pivots that will align the rocker alignment, and when over tightened, will make the rocker pivot points "stiffer" over time, with wear (and possibly abuse and lack of lubrication" may require adjustment) that will likely help to keep the pads that ride on the cam properly centered, and eliminate the uneven wear on the rocker pads, and the camshaft. I would clean, and gently resurface the rocker pads, and clean any burs from the cam shaft profile, then polish both surfaces with fine emery cloth, drain the engine oil, and use the used engine oil to flush any "particles" from the resurfacing back through the bottom of the engine case, then put some clean oil in the bike, reassemble, and readjust the valve lash to compensate for any material you removed during the resurfacing...All this could be because someone over tightened the valves, and the cam and followers never really got a chance to get the proper oil film to build up and protect the metal surfaces, since they were in constant contact, oil couldn't get between them to properly lubricate, and the build up of heat, as shown in the browning of the cam followers, loosened the valve lash adjustment to beyond spec, making the problem even worse over time, and the engine got louder and more embarrassing to run....At this point, replacing parts gets expensive, and used parts could have the same failure, so working with what you have, and polishing those parts will likely yield similar results to paying for replacement used parts that MAY even be in worse condition....The rocker arms seemed a bit too lose, and not really fixed along their pivot axis. they shouldn't be tight, but those seemed extra "floppy", and not properly aligned. the noise could be the rocker arms sliding back and forth, being pushed by the followers and the uneven cam wear, and knocking against the side stops.
On a side note, have you tried using a mechanic's stethoscope to further pinpoint the source of the ticking sound? there's an inexpensive mechanic's stethoscope at harbor freight that works well, and it's only like $10 (or at least it WAS when I bought one a few years ago...) A Mechanic's stethoscope is also good for finding bad alternator bearings without removing the belt, or locating bad wheel bearings, etc. once you have one, you'll use it all the time.
Once the cam is worn through the extremely thin, hard surface, it's junk. It will just continue to wear at this point, very fast.
I can't believe that not only ran , but idled on that old fuel ! vintage HONDA 👍
typical Honda, had a ss50 moped. 8 year old fuel in the tank and ran on every first kick.
Quality😀👌
mine did the same ,sat 5 years then i out a piston in it and fired right up !
Well quite. I have a Honda ex650 generator purchased 2nd hand in 2009. I ran it once that year and put it away. 11 years later I hauled it out and it started on the 3rd pull, on 12 year old petrol.....which is still in the tank. Ran and used it again last autumn, started 2nd pull. Honda eh?
Can't beat the vintage hondas👌
Congratulations to 600k subscribers! Love your videos :)
Unfortunately, the Honda rocker arms and camshafts of that era were only surface hardened and prone to eating each other if the oil was run too low, or out. Once the scoring starts, it's all over. Web Cams out here in California can hard weld and regrind your cam and rockers, however it's not a "cheap" fix. The XR500 and 250s from 1979-1982 used the same style of cylinder head, cam and rocker arrangement, as well as I believe the ATC 350X and maybe a few others. You might check into them and see if by some stretch of the imagination, they might use the same cam and/or rockers. Also, the problem with using a different rocker cover is that the head and cover are machined as a unit and often times won't be right for a different part. I once tried that with a Suzuki DR650ES. Bolted a different rocker cover on, then the cam wouldn't spin. Good luck with whatever you do. I hope you get it repaired as that quad deserves a second chance at life. You said it yourself, it wants to live. :) --Bruce
Lol. I came here to say exactly the same thing you have to take the head cover off and inspect the rockers.
When I had a few of these engines back in 2000ish, I was able to get replacement rockers from honda oem. I replaced one cam as well, but they are usually okay. This era also was renowned for Hondas chocolate cams that would melt in the heat.
He thinks it will last a year as is, and I think if he uses a good, modern oil with lots of zink and perhaps other additives, he can go farther than that. Does that have an oil filter? He will want to keep any wear particles out of the oil with either a good filter or frequent changes. the polishing he suggested might help too and shimming out that side play.
I bought a Honda XR200RE new: it threw a spaz and I took it in for repairs. While the mechanic was taking a preliminary look at it the parts guy came by and said "Oh, ya got another hand-grenade in, huh?". He got a NotInFrontOfTheCustomer look from the mechanic. Woe woe woe. Repaired under warranty but it sucked that Honda was doing the testing of its new radial four valve head via the customer. It did run fine after the repairs, I should say.
Test and make sure that the atv runs well after for a couple hours straight. On mine the ignition CDI was going bad and the atv would randomly stall.
To be perfectly honest, that machine is in fantastic condition for a 1980's ATV, and classic Hondas are very, very hot right now. The idea that it may be pushed aside for lack of a camshaft/rockers is kind of silly. Even if it needs a head, I would hunt down some parts. The top end is very, very similar to the ATC350X three wheeler 1985-1986. I assume the valves in the 4x4 are smaller and the cam different....but I could be wrong. A 350X head will likely bolt on. Lastly, the damage may be simply from running super hot on crap or insufficient oil, but it may also have fallen victim to the backwards oil filter at some point. It is easily possible to put the cartridge in backwards....and a lot of people did
I agree this machine is operating for its age and great for a restore video someone would pay good money for that to cover your cost .
In part 2, you may discover that this is exactly what happened. The oil filter in it was installed backwards. Good guess!
As soon as you started fiddling around through those inspection ports, I said to myself, “why are you doing this, we all know you are going to have that whole cover off in another ten minutes!” Love you videos, Mustie. Thanks for all you share with us.
I was saying the same thing
@@garymallard4699 Mustie has said many times in his videos he doesn't want to read the the manuals unless its a last resort. He wants to figure it out himself, makes for more interesting videos.
@@normcummins2719 And that’s the correct way to do it.
@@garymallard4699 They'll stop when you stop mentioning manuals. Pretty obvious solution there old codger
HA HA! Yep.
i bought a 97 300 4x4 that had been overhauled, the previous owner had changed oil, put the new oil filter in backward and damaged the engine. that is what the dealer told me anyway ! 20 years later I am still using it .I appreciate all your videos a 67 seven year old jury rigger hobbyist. thank you,
Just in case dad is watching this with me this morn, I love you. Found out he watches you too and I know he at home. Been pretty sick, fighting cancer, low kidney function and such. Nice video both you and Jason. Thanks for sharing!
Your ability to find machines to work on and get running is next level.
It's nice of you to help Jason get his new bedroom ready!
A joy as ever, being brought into Mustie’s world of “wrenching” , and always educational, as well as being damn good fun, thank you Darren 🙂
Those rockers are not supposed to have any side to side play. It's a clear sign that something is wrong in the head probably caused by oil starvation. Great video mustie!
Yeah, that side play had me thinking immediately, this ain't right.
+1
Side play looks baaad...
Although this noise doesn't sound exactly like my bmw airhead does when it has excessive sideplay, so maybe I'm wrong!
But yeah, I have definitely chased 'tappety' sounds and found that it's rocker side play and/or incorrect rocker position (over the valve stem) that's making the noise, rather than wide valve clearance.
honda gx stationary engines have a similar amount of side to side play, may just be a honda thing
I was wondering about that. If both rockers can move side-to-side then it seems like they could slap each other and make that noise.
@@janramonmartin It's a honda thing. My 2012 500 rubicon has similar side to side play. Keep in mind this is not the direction of any force, and is of no cause for concern.
I’m not really an ATV/ Dirt Bike guy but after binge watching a bunch of your videos I may start fixing them! Thanks for such great content and information!
Gotta give Honda their due, 99% of people that watch this fully expect this engine to start and run
Absolutely, honda stuff is almost bulletproof
I have 5 Honda engine machines, all always work.
Exactly. 💯
Yep hard to kill a Honda I've been trying for years lol...
When it ran on that stale gas I was blown away. I was thinking, Honda Power! Honda should use this video as promotional material. with some editing, of course. Can't let anyone see those rocker arms. Because they're spent. I wonder if they could be hard faced and ground?
My grandpa had one of these until the day he died, rebuilt the thing god knows how many times. Lovely to see someone else restoring one.
Picked up an 87 TRX350D back in December and rebuilt the carb and fuel system and it fired right up. Awesome ATVs
I have one of those, exactly the same. My Dad bought it brand new in '86 and now I've owned it since '02, when he bought a bigger quad. Mine still runs perfectly and it's never had any issues other than flushing the front brake fluid a couple of times over the years. It was always kept in a garage so it's still in great shape. Those old Honda's run forever.
His didn't run forever though.
Those old Hondas oil filters can easily be installed backwards and usually the person notices it when it starts smoking or the valvetrain gets loud... The camshaft,cam journals,rocker arm tips are the first to succumb to oil starvation... I have several complete used ready to bolt on and go heads with cams etc for the 86-92 350s if anyone is looking...
Thank god another mustie episode lol my top 3 channels in UA-cam mustie 1 vice grip garage and puddings fab shop
Mortski Repair is pretty good too. Just found him
Junkyard Digs is another great one
Zip ties and bias pliers.
Right with ya. Plus some Taryl and Mortske. They all bring a lot, but some of the best ones ever have been Mustie
@@davesanford4798 I also enjoy "Fab Rats" from Glendale, Utah. Paul Cox and his buddies are very talented and amusing.
I have a few of these spanning over the years, and that tapping sound does not completely go away ever. I don't know if it is a Honda Fortrax thing, but it may ease up but will never dissipate completely
Use a few ounces of marvel. It will deff help. Add lucas oil stabilizer after you change the oil. That will help a ton
Those old TRX 350 are renowned for their ruggedness. I bought an 87 needing a timing chain. After some research decided to convert to propane. Rebuilt the head and put a 10:1 piston in it. Runs outstanding. Been mainly plowing snow for 4yrs and is just a tank. Great bike!
Quad *
@@grahamkyle7465 It is a regional thing for sure. I say bike or buggy around here. But out west, everyone calls them quads.
@@Bobbywolf64 ive always just called them a 4 wheeler. Southern Illinois thing maybe
Bikes have two wheels
I had an German ford car with rockers worn out. It was a junk car just for fun driving in the fields. For the heck of it I dismounted the rockerarm bridge and put some weld on them. Filed them down and polished. They did hold upp for many years and when it finaly was time to scrap the car I had to check my weldings. They looked like it never hapend. Love your videos Mustie.
I got nothin' that hasn't been said already with more expertise than mine. Reading through, no one seems worried about just reassembling and riding. Just a noise issue (which is probably torture for someone with your skills). So, either way, you have something special there. Thanks for another great Sunday morning.
That was the first year 4x4 four wheeler from Honda.
87 they started the fourtrax name.
They started coming with racks in 87.
I Grew up riding one around Alaska in the 80s.
Great machines.
My dad had it from 87- just a few years ago.
Really like your videos. As a back yard mechanic they have taught how to diaganose my machines much better. Please keep them coming!
I love how you are always so careful to not fill the cylinder with junk. I see some videos where they are so eager to start the machine that they don’t clear it out first. Order of operations are critical here.
I have a 1994 Honda Fourtrax. I haven't ridden it much in the last 15 years. It just sits in the shed. Every year I do put it in the yard and it starts without any effort. I have a friend with a 1987 fourtrax and he still uses it to this day to plow driveways. These are awesome machines!
Honda just makes engines that run, no matter what usually! My 2001 Honda Rancher 350ES is just about to turn over 800 miles!! LOL i dont use it much. Original tires still, they look like new but are a little hard, not really soft feeling. I might get some new ones when she gets to 1000 miles, might be a year or 3 though!! haha
You do such a treat job of showing how to fix whatever you fix. Great job keep up the great job!!!
Great motor worth putting money into.quality machine.all the best Mustie looking forward to see you put new parts in
Parts will have to come rrom the "free-pile", or nothing at all !
I can’t thank you enough the amount of knowledge you give us and the joy that we can do it.
You are amazing thank you for time and patient.
Those cam issues were a common problem for several years among multiple similar engines from Honda in the 80's. One solution was to modify the cam by adding a set of roller bearings to the cam. Welding up the cam followers and then having them hardened also fixed the wear issue between the cam shaft and the followers. It might be worth your while to investigate that option. I currently have a '81 XL500S bike that I rebuilt the engine on some years ago and it still runs perfectly. Great motors!
Wasn't he able to adjust the tappets to get clearance? So are you saying the cams themselves get oil starved and wear or are they made of a soft steel?
@@chrisstratton3430 The cams are ok, but the camshaft runs in basically a bushing in the head. So the camshaft gets play in the bushings, picks up metal from the head, and burns up. The roller bearings solve this issue. The second issue is that the rocker arms are too soft, so they wear down where the cams contact them, burning them up. Welding the contact points up, then getting them case-hardened solves the second issue. So just resetting the tappets is a very short-term solution to two problems that will eventually result in the camshaft and the head becoming scrap. The rocker arms are no longer made, and are like unicorn pee - unobtainium.
@@garyvanvuuren199
what do you suggest, tig welding a layer of steel to the contact points? How would you know how thick of a layer and how to shape it? And wouldnt case hardening and quenching the rocker arms twist them? IMO it's not like they are cast but rather precission machined. The same with fitting the roller bearings. Would you just eyeball it or use a lathe? To me it sounds like a good theory but has anyone ever made it?
@@trollmcclure1884 I don't know enough about welding to give you a good answer on that one. Regarding the roller bearing conversion; several years ago I took a head and cam to a machine shop with the request for a roller bearing conversion. They put the rocker box on the head and machined the cam apeture to the correct outer diameter of the roller bearing, and machined the cam shaft down to the correct inner diameter. They also welded and hardened up the rocker arms contact surfaces for me. This was back in South Africa, but I'm certain that shops in the US could do it too. That completed head ran perfectly for a very long time in my race-bike.
Can't beat those Japanese engines. I have a Subaru Robin engine in my 1949 Cushman Highlander motor scooter...runs like a watch. I bought that old scooter in 1960 from my dad. I was 14 at the time. it's gone thru 2 cast iron flat head Cushman engines. I ride old Harley's too but I love that old Cushman and still ride it. I'm 76!
real Honda quality, they always start, unfortunately this one has some mechanical issues. Hopefully we will get part 2 and see it doing what it was ever made for!
I know where there are 2 complete good 350 heads with good cam journals, good valves, good camshafts,good rocker box covers ready to bolt on if interested..
14431-HC0-000 14441-HC0-000Is the part number for the rockers.Caltric Camshaft Kit Compatible with Honda Trx250X Trx 250X Fourtrax 250 2X4 1987-1992 is the cam the only difference in the cam is the 250X had the bearings on the end that you can take off type this info in Amazon the rocker arms I sent you the part number for are for a 250X also 87 thank you buddy for all the great videos it's got me through a lot of projects hopefully this helps you out if you have any questions just ask and I will do my best to answer them I have a bunch of these motors out in the garage
The camshaft is $25 and the rockers are $56 for the pair they work very good I buy them all the time
If you would like I can always go out there and measure the cam where the bearing sits and then you can cross reference that with your measurements on your cam just if you want to make sure for yourself to double check I can do the same thing with the rockers that way it gets a little bit of questioning out of the way I have the cam and rockers sitting on a bench right now very accessible always have an extra set
These were such high quality, and at the time very expensive machines. We beat the crap out of them on the farm, both the 3 and 4 wheelers, they never failed. I don't think folks can appreciate the quality and craftsmanship and probably would not pay it now.
Same quality as the lawn mowers and that What is the Achilles’ heel to the whole machine , very expensive to work on !
Pretty shocked that he didn't have a spare motor for this thing in his collection already. Great video
"Lets go dig in the hoard!"
You may take a look at cross-reference parts numbers. The TRX250 used the same base engine / components as the ATC250ES, the camshaft is the exact same part number.
This is a TRX 350.
.... and a much larger inventory of "used parts". Good call !!!
@@bioniclife Yeah wasn't entirely sure, even tho the 350 has the same part number across multiple years and models. 86-87 fourtrax, 87 fourtrax 350D and both years of the ATC350X 85-86.
@@PlayGameSafe good info.
..... my father ( an inspiring old school engineer) machined/ground/re-hardened the cam bearing surfaces, bored the head and cover and made bushes to resolve a similar problem, the outer bush was split, they were all pinned to the head and cover respectively - it was the play in the cam bearings that resulted in the clacking from the rockers
I had the exact same ATV, I got when I was in Middle School (1994). I remember it being rather quick and very capable. Hopefully you can get it up and wheelin again. The design was ahead of its time. Still looks great!
I had this exact ATV as a kid. 1986 FourTrax, 350 cc with fulltime 4x4. It developed a loud clatter in the top end. Had to replace many of the timing components. Wish my parents kept it as it was a solid machine.
I still have mine, havent had it running for years, just sitting in my garage. Ive thought about selling it, but toyed with getting it back up and running.
Still got mine too, it’s in the garage right now. Have cleaned the carb and contacts in the ignition system as it was intermittent and it runs well now. Just trying to get an after market exhaust muffler to fit, it requires a “ bit of adjustment “😬. My dad bought it new in 1986 and we have always had it on the farm but it sat for a long while hence the issues. Parts can be tricky to find here in the UK though. 👋
I believe the cam and rocker faces are case hardened, so it's just the surface that is hard, once that is worn through it's soft, if you re-face it, it won't last long. Bob .UK
Exactly ... not worth the trouble given access vs time left w/o the hardened surface. The Cam might be worth resurfacing but not the rockers; too much trouble/expense to "spray weld"/regrind.
I have a TRX 350d 1987 runs like a champ I had to drag a ton of large limbs to the burn pile from the ice storm never had a problem.just an awesome 4 wheeler.
Thanks for my Sunday Mustie1 fix! Sure looks like a solid machine that would be worth putting some time, effort, and a little money in to. I was sure we'd see ya flying through the snow with it before the video ended 😂! Oh well, maybe in a future video! Thanks for taking us through the process!
Channel Junkyard Digs just did a half arsed revival on a 200cc trike Honda. This is much better and more details! That’s why we love you Mustie! 🤩
That is pretty much the holy grail of old utility hondas. Those 4x4s would never get stuck…and trying to find one in that good of shape is very hard now. Don’t sell that one mustie
OR SELL IT TO ME❤️
I literally just did an overhaul on one of these - same model from 1986 - last year. That sound is the timing chain... for sure - Its about $30... The tensioner has a special way that it is set and checked (can't remember - but you can download the service manual) - and if its all the way in, regardless, you need a new chain. I posted a vid to the Honda forums and they nailed it right away from that sound. You can also get a new head on eBay for a couple hundred bucks and swap out the rockers. These engines run forever.... lap the valves, swap the top end rockers, replace the chain and you are good for another 30 years.
Those machines are legendary.
Ok, be honest 95% of guys would have taken that thing for a rip in the snow before taking it apart and fixing it the right way. It started somewhat easy. That’s why I watch. Love this channel.
Nice vid mustie, with the light on it, it shows up the trough in the 2 pads creating an edge where the cam lob is hitting it. We used to get it on the vauxhall / opel over head cam engines the cam followers/ buckets would have a grove / chanel worn in it and the engine would sound like a coin box, but we ground the surface flat and the engine sounded like new again. The only problem was it wasn't hardened anymore and would west down fair quickly again but I would grind them pads flat with a curve on them to see if that was the problem and then order some more.
Same 4 wheeler we grew up on. Brings back memories. Thanks for this one Mustie.
How beautifully engineered these small Honda's are ,simply the best .
Hello from Lynn Massachusetts, thanks for teaching me to hunt for gremlins
You are so welcome
Hey Mustie. I have a 86 Honda VF500 that has the "siamese" rocker arms like these also. The shop manual for it says that both valves need to have feeler gauges unter the adjusters during the adjustment process. If you don't, they'll both wind up tight because one adjuster will get pressed against the valve because of the clearance between the rocker arm and the rocker arm shaft.
I have a 1998 BMW R1200 C MC also Honda V65 Magna they both have multiple valve rocker's and need to be adjusted @ the same time with two feeler guages @ the same time it's a pain but the only way it comes out right. good video this reminds me why our hoards keep growing!
Hondas in general had rocker arms like that. My 2012 has the same style, but the service manual makes no mention of the double feeler gauge method. It is pretty easy to keep checking back and forth to see when they both have the same small amount of drag.
Returning an old machine back to its glory is so freaking satisfying to watch
I had a 250x chew up a couple cams just like that. I was so confused as I had plenty of oil in it. I tested the oil pump and it was working. Turns out after a few more cams it somehow had a intermittent working oil pump. I got a new oil pump and never had to replace the cam or rockers. You can get a “Web Cam” for around $200 also
That brings me back to childhood, was the first quad we had and had a plow on it. Awesome machine
Sadly that motor also was in the 85/86 350x racing 3 wheeler(top end is the same, just the bottom case is different. Bottom end internals also the same). People are using the 4 wheeler motors for parts to bring the trikes back to life. And the biggest issue for those style motors is people put the oil filter in backwards and running them without oil flow
Backwards oil filter the quickest way to kill these
A couple of small fine files to deburr the edges of the rocker arm and some extra fine grit sanding paper to polish the surfaces might get enough material shifted to allow the engine to run a couple of more years. The thing is, it runs the way it is. Do the polish job, put it together run it and then look for a rocker box complete with cam….
This was actually the second year of this machine, the first being a 1985 model. I bought the exact same machine new in 1986, yes 36 years ago. My son rebore the engine and added a high performance piston He still has the same 4x4 at his cottage which he uses on a regular basis. This was by any standard the best 4x4 machine made for its time. We have since added an aftermarket muffler and timing chain, everything else is OEM. I still refer to this Honda as being amazing, every time I go to his cottage.
1986 was the first year for the TRX350. There was a 1985 TRX250 however.
The 1984 TRX 200 were the first 4 wheeler. They had a weld on front end from the factory that changed the left over three wheelers that where now illegal in North America into 4 wheelers at the factory in Japan. My son has one and you can see the original three wheeler frame and where they welded on the front end. When the last three wheelers arrived from Japan they were illegal as they had been in shipping when the laws changed and they had to be destroyed. They got buried in their crates in landfills. I own two of the 1986 TRX 350D. Tough wheelers but they have their issues.
There was no 1985 model. 1986 models may have been available in 1985, but there is no 85
What an absolute unit of a four wheeler! What a champ!
I'm surprised that once you heard the clacking you didn't stop and drain the oil to check for rainbow metallic. I always liked to check the oil health and view the drain plug to see how much metal is visible and pull the filter if it has one.
Ronnie Heit on my Wife's tablet here
Awesome way to spend a Sunday afternoon before the Superbow.
Watching Herr Docktor Professor Mustie1 resurect another dead off road bone breaker.
You can get the cams online for 60 dollars each new.
Plus darn near most of the other parts.
When I owned a honda years ago in the supplied toolkit there was a tool to adjust valves in it They look like exactly the same square size It used to fit through another supplied box spanner
at 19:00 we've all been there and appreciate that beautiful sound.
I had a twin to that Honda, the plastics were not too good but were all there. The inside of the gas tank was real rusty. It had brake and axle problems , but the Engine did run real good. I sold it as is for $1,600.00 cash this past summer.
Thats crazy money. Once all the money dries up again, prices will be back to what it was.
You'r right it is hard to say what to do in this case. Because it's not beat to crap and it's complete I'm thinking that it may be worth fixing it. You are fortunate enough to make half back upon selling . I like the way you naturally try to save as many oldies with all the goodies intact. It is a great looking machine so it does show that it got some love in it's life. In the end I say why not !!. thanks for a great time on this adventure . Cheers
Seeing those rocker arms reminded me of a 1992 Sunbird that I used to have. I was driving around and it started coughing and sputtering and had almost no power. I took it in to a shop and they told me I needed a new cam. Since those were extremely hard to find it sat for a couple years. When I finally decided to look at it again I found that the rocker arms were worn very similar to what you have there. $35 later for new rockers and it was back on the road again. I've learned from you that almost any engine can be made to run again if you're suborn enough.
Love that ya figure out the problem without looking anything up... then after you do research n stuff...
Oh, my dad has one of those, me and my friends ran it like crazy people growing up, still works perfectly
My Honda Big Red everything was double clamped. Honda told me it was to keep out water since it floated, and that I could drive into water up to the air cleaner. It worked, I drove mine on the Delaware River out to the sand bar several times. Until my grandmother caught me. Video brings back great memories.
Had the same model .. and it sounded pretty much like that from day one. The worst the gas, the worse the knock. Could only run Supreme gas to get it to not sound like it was about to disintegrate.
I was told, but never took mine apart to confirm, that the "rattle" might also have been wrist pin slop, and was why better fuel helped. Also, cam tensioner rattle was common. Either way, your bike Sounds Normal.
Cold weather (below freezing) was the downfall to these .. choke to start it .. but dont touch the throttle.. if you do, it will flood, die and be a bugger to get cleared again - especially with all the air tubing and passages in place ... the length of piping and filtering almost acts like a choke already.
R is 1 down from Neutral (with R sfaety engaged)
1st is Up from Neutral
Not surpised in the least it ran on the old fuel.
Thanks for sharing 🇨🇦
I thought it was a little quieter on new gas, good point
I rode one of these for 10 years and it still ran when I got rid of it, I regret getting rid of it, They are tuff and will go anywhere!
Of all the youtubers I've watched dearly. Slowly they change and morph and my views dwindle. Mustie1 is still the same ol guy I just hangout in the garage and fix stuff with. Or do new adventures with. Like buying crap bucket trucks or playing with tractors.
Myself I would put it back together with some assembly lube and run some thicker oil with zinc additive added to cushion the rockers and cam. If I were going to keep it for myself and could not find better parts. Good video man can't wait for more on this one.
1:13:15 that worn cam journal on the far side will be an issue...I had the same problem with my 5.4L...soon as you get any wear on the aluminum the oil doesn't flow properly and the cam bounces and moves. The one journal on my head wasn't 1/10th that bad and all the mechs said it was trash. You can get them repaired via "spray welding" where they apply liquid aluminum to it then re-bore it and polish it but considering a whole used engine was $400, used heads $250.0 each and repairing was $800...I trashed that head.
One reason for it happening on the 5.4L is that they are well known to have issues with that cylinder (#2) as it is the 2nd last in the oil passage/travel so the oil is full of crap and hot by the time it gets there. That looks like it is the same issue with this engine....if it was low on oil or something prevented it from getting oil for even a minute is enough to cause permanent damage.
I can't help but wonder what the journal attached to the head looks like under the cam...it's probably chewed like the one on the valve cover. If that's the case, the head is toast as well.
You could re-surface the rockers but if the cam is bouncing around, the smoothed out surface won't last long.
You can run it as is, and then keep your eye on a used head or engine, maybe one will pop up local and cheap......
Hey Mustie, I have a four wheeler just like this (350 CC). Mine needed new rings when I bought it. I broke down the engine and redid all the gaskets and seals and adjusted the valves.........STILL have the same knocking sound you've got! I just ride it like I can't hear the knockin' and have for a couple years now. No breakdown yet, knock on wood!
I had a 1982 XL500R that always made a similar, perhaps less extreme ticking sound. You notice it more with stock exhaust. I never committed surgery on her and after 10 years of riding her hard on and off road, sold her running fine. Kept oil fresh and clean. That top end is fairly bullet proof. I like the cam-removal-resurfacing plan if anything. Then run synthetic oil with zinc addative. Cool video.
It always becomes a adventure when you have to dig a project out and the mice start to run so much fun love your videos...
Well thats a Honda for ya. I'd expect nothing less. Lol Bulletproof and runs with 15yr old gas. Great video as usual Mustie thanks
You've beat me to it. Yeah, it's a Honda ! What do you expect ?
And we had to wait only 'till 2:19 for the famous Victory laugh ! 🤣🤣
PS 26:51 Definitely a Honda. Look at that top notch engineering ! Heck, even has an oil cooler and fan. In 1986 !
Awesome find.
I actually found a 1986 cbr125 that had been sitting for 20 years, and started first try. Gotta love Hondas
@Marc René Yvon LOL exactly
This video will forever change my perspective on stale gas.
@@marcryvon "Top notch engineering"? Most of it yes, but they did shoot themselves in the foot with some cyl. head/cam/tensioner designs.
I have a Honda 350 just like this. I got it Christmas of 1985 but the atv is a 1986. I still use it every month 36 years later. Mine still has the original tires on it.
I had that exact ATV with that exact Cycle Country plow. I regret selling it, although I kept the plow and modified it for my Yamaha Wolverine. Nice find
Please do make another follow up video for this one would love to see the end result, always love your videos!!!
Having just re-built two Chinese ATV's for my kids (SunL 110 and Baja 90) I am envious of you working on an old Honda. The old 80's-90's Japanese stuff is hard to shake a stick at for reliability and over-all quality of the hardware.
That's why I recently picked up a 93 xr200 in a box for cheap. It'll cost about $400 to get back to riding shape.
@@randombuilds8336 Lucky! The Baja 90 was $400 not running... luckily the previous owner had installed the slide in the carb backwards and it was stuck open... 5 minutes later my 7 year-old was running the thing around the yard. The SunL 110 was a basket case for $200 with another quad for parts... spray bomb and a head refresh (lapped the valves, some copper spray on the gaskets and a new battery) and it's been reliable for the past 2 years so far! They aren't bad little bikes... but for a 5 year old and 7 year old I'm not spending over a grand on something Japanese that they'll outgrow. Haha.
@@AimlessMoto Definitely, there's a reason the pitbikes and 4 wheelers are popular. Even new it's under $1k for the kid sized ones, and they are pretty reliable with an occasional oil change. The xr200 cost me $350. Needs a tire, piston, bore, valves, cam chain, gasket set and cables. But it's still a good deal because running bikes are still way over priced.
I have owned and repaired many of these.The plastics look great and if the frame is good,the cheapest and easiest fix is to get another engine.I see alot of engines in my area because the frames usually rust out in my northern area but the motors are bullet proof as long as you keep oil in them.See alot scrapped.
Since there's no cat converter on this engine, you could use a high-zinc oil or oil additive to reduce wear on the internals.
Celebrate the small victories you got the bolt out.
Also celebrate the small victories MBTS is back.
So hard to work on my side as you did under the machine.
Let's cross our fingers for a pit (with STEPS) at least a 1/2 pit for the bay
Be good be happy be safe.
Hi Mustie, Way back in the eighties Ford had the same issues with the ohc Cortina engines! numerous company's sold various cam kits, oil pipes and rockers, Citroen & Peugeot also had problems with soft rockers. You may be able to get an old time shop to rework & re harden your rocker arms, Hope this helps.
Ford in Australia solved this by offering the Cortina with the 250c.i. - 4.1 litre Falcon OHV in-line six.
I had one. The valve guides were super tight, like freeze the valve to get it in, and the valve would stick down. I had worked on by a dealer and had to sign a form acknowledging that it wasn’t a factory defect.
After repair I ran synthetic oil in it. When it was time to start it after sitting a while, I would slowly turn it with the kick start lever a few times to make sure the valve would snap back and not bend. Then it was ok to electric start it until the next long sleep, like 1 to 3 months. Great vehicle! I plowed my 1200 foot driveway for years with it.
I've heard some of the old 3 and 4 wheelers had the same engines as their dirt bike counterparts of the same displacement, except they were detuned quite a bit. Apparently the quads have a dished piston vs the dirt bikes flat top piston which provides higher compression.
Excellent video as always *Mustie1*
Incorrect.
The honda TRX race ATV's yeah sure same uni cam design.
But the ranchers and four trax had nothing in common
Sounds like the small end worn to me ?
@@HELVIS. small end?
Piston end of the con rod. Small end
@@derekadams729 Wrist pin also in US English I believe.
The common cause of that cam failure is riding wheelies or long steep uphill climbs.
Fixed a Honda 250 that looked exactly like that in '92 using JB Weld/graphite from a #2 pencil for the aluminum and someone Tig welded up the rocker pads. It was still going in 2010 so, it is repairable.
The only things I don't know is what they Tig welded the pads with and what the adults coated the cam with so it didn't stick to the JB weld. My life experience makes me suspect PVA but the person who did it has since passed.
I'm envious, you have quite the time capsule there.
Thanks Musty for another awesome video! My observation: every time you pulled the spark plug boot off, or bumped into the spark plug, it seemed awful loose in it’s threads. I wouldn’t think that that alone could have made that loud of a clatter, but that can’t be good for the threads?
About 20 years ago I bought a Honda CX500 with 500 miles on it. Guy bought it for his wife and she was scared to ride it. Eventually they sold it to a friend who only rode it home, parked it on a covered patio for a few years before selling to me. I knew all three of them, so had the complete history of the bike.
Problem was a lot of the rubber and plastic parts had gone bad over the years, old gas had gummed things up, the oil in the crankcase had turned to grease and condensation had caused rust on chrome parts and inside the tank.
I did a lot of work on it, but quickly found replacement Honda parts were ridiculously expensive. New floats for the carbs set me back $45 each, should have cost $15! But you gotta have what you gotta have! New tires and mufflers, I got it running good and rode it for a few years then finally sold it with another few thousand miles on the odometer. 30 years old with only avout 3500 miles! It was a decent bike, but the gearing meant it wasn't very much fun at California freeway speeds. (Drive shaft, too... Difficult to change ratios.)
My suspicion is the rocker arms were treated "before" they were surface ground and matched. Heat treating and hardening should always be done after the surface grinding has been done. When you harden steel, it only hardens the surface to 1-10mm, that's it, the entire part is not hardened. The term hardened steel is often used for a medium or high carbon steel that has been given heat treatment and then quenching followed by tempering, giving a stronger tinsel strength to the outer surface. Once the steel is hardened, then you can tweak the surface with fine abrasive for smoothing as long as you do it evenly and don't break the surface. My reasoning for this theory is it seems to affect all the rocker arms of these engines, as evidence of the resale price and rarity of replacements in good condition.
Eh. That depends on the alloy, 4xxx series steels are through hardening. And given the crossection of the rockers, even 1045 would be fairly well through hardened.
100% it needs a cam and rockers
You pretty much always have to grind after hardening steel.
The surface layer gets softer due to decarb.
@@samuraidriver4x4 and heat treating often warps the part, so you have to do the final operations afterwards if you want it accurate.
Great to see the old tear down and fault find
Love it 😀
"you can definitely see the path they were going, a little turd road" this made me belly laugh 😂😂
We ran into a similar problem on 2 Honda AN 600 twins we used to have. The timing chain tensioner was on a shaft bedded in the aluminum case halves and given enough miles the shaft would wear a groove in the case. Solution turned out to be having a machinist mill out the case and inset a bronze block to act as a much more durable bearing surface.
Common Honda issue from way back when due to a lack of appreciation of how important cam chain tension is. The chains also have a finite life and need to be replaced once they are out of tension adjustment promptly as they tend to fail somewhat abruptly as I found out whilst overtaking at 60 mph. Luckily the cam chain fell neatly right down the tunnel into the sump without jamming anything, so no wheel lockup, just rather eerie silence. The actual adjustment process was simplicity itself, but often ignored, and a slack chain not only wore grooves into the cam chain tunnel, but also mangled the tensioner.
This guy is just a part of Sundays now
"this guy?'
Mustie is a legend!
Man! Some, terrific input from , viewers to resolve the tapping noise!Sanding down the pads/ cam , braking down of oil/ lubricant, running out, causing heat problem.From the remarks, you should be able to sand/ grind, to resolve the tapping problems.Without buying parts!
All said ,this apparently is a great Honda!! It sounds like, it will be worth your effort with the Emory cloth! You, could have years of fun, with this four wheel,
quard/ bike , at your summer cottage down by the lake! Go , for it!
😀👍