Independent Movements, Retrograde & Unboxing a Hidden Gem #50
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- We judge a watch in part on the basis of its having an in-house movement. But sometimes independent watchmakers make such good movements, they are superior to most in-house movement. One complication often overlooked are the retrograde ones and understanding them and how they work, extends our understanding of watches. WatchArtSci covers the general topics of high horology watches, watch movements, purchasing watches, judging the value of a watch and its movements and understanding the history of different watches and watch brands that collectors cherish.
Congrats on the new watch! It's a real beauty! Retrogrades are a very cool complication that are definitely rare out in the wild.
Hey chr1s60, thanks man! I cannot believe it took me so long to discover retrogrades. Funny thing is that once I started looking for retrogrades, I found them everywhere; but only if you look. You're right, they're rare in the wild, but they're definitely there! Cheers, Bill
Love the watch bill. The blue dial and yellow gold combo is simply beautiful.
Hey Salvador, thanks man! The other one was in white gold and 35mm instead of 37mm. (You can see the first one here: www.chrono24.com/harrywinston/200-mabi35wl-w--id3689147.htm ) But I agree that blue-gray dial and rose gold really stand out. Great to hear from you! Kindest regards, Bill
Wow Bill. Congratulations, a haute haute horology brand and it looks stunning!
Hey Ian, thanks man!--hot, hot horology! That is very cool. Kindest regards, Bill
Great do it yourself show n tell, Bill. Really helps explain the way Retrograde works. Thx
Arthur, you're too kind. I worked for days with the Popsicle sticks and cardboard! I've seen better 3rd Grade science projects! Actually, though, it helped me understand the difficulty in making the snail cams in watches (and elsewhere). That's why I'm so impressed with master watchmakers like Richard Habring. The fact that you can get those watch by contemporary geniuses makes it all the more fun! Cheers, Bill
haute horologerie + your own analyses about independent movements + the retrograde complication. By Jean-Marc Widerrecht. What a find Bill, what a watch! Congrats!
Hi CC. The fun part of watch research also has a very practical side as well. You can find great buys in watches that no one expects. Kindest regards, B ill
Awesome review Bill and congrats on the purchase. A very rewarding consumer and research journey I am sure! The only other thing I want to add is that the brains behind the Opus series and the overall approach by HW to work with the very best independent watchmakers, was Max Busser, whose approach followed him right into his own brand MB&F. I admire the brands today that, rather than hiding the watchmakers behind an in-house calibre name, celebrate the results of a genuine collaboration.
Hi Ryan, you gave me an idea for my next video. I really only scratched the surface of the research process that led me to the final conclusion with all of the pieces and people in place. You have my head dancing with social and business connections that can make a watch great! I'm on it!!! Thanks again for your thoughtful comments. I keep finding new things in your book, "The Wristwatch Handbook", that I can steal (without giving you one iota of credit) and use with no one the wiser....Thanks again, Bill
Lol!
Great video as usual. Excellent explanation and diagram of the retrograde movement. Love your new watch. I'm going to do some research on HW and see if anything pops out to me.
Hey Brian! Thanks man! Doing research on Harry Winston watches is a hoot. It gets into a type of rarity and exclusivity that you don't find in your run-of-the-mill watch. Keep in mind that Harry Winston started with two world class watchmakers, Jean-Marc Wiederrecht and Roger Dubuis back in 1989, and so the "Harry Winston modules" are those by a couple of giants in watch development and design. When you see 'HW Module' (or some similar HW reference), it's not going to be some jeweler working at Harry Winston's who cobbled together some gears; it going to be Jean-Marc Wiederrecht and Roger Dubuis or movements by their companies (Agenhor and Roger Dubuis) or other movements like Girard-Perrigaux and Frédéric Piguet. Then there is the Opus series watches, beginning around 2001 with F.P. Journe as the watchmaker de jour up until Opus 14, which is a trail through The Who's Who in watchmaking. There are a few of the usual blowhards in the forums who declare Harry Winston isn't a serious watchmaker because HW is a jewelry company and not a watchmaking company. (To be honest I used to think the same thing but was fortunate enough to keep my mouth shut until I learned something about the company.) Also, keep your eyes peeled for some great deals on HW watches. Most collectors overlook them, which is lucky for us. Finally, please, please--Share what you learn! ... well just with Watch Art Sci-Fi...you can forget about the rest of those humps. Cheers, Bill
wow - I can only admire your collection from afar. You have an amazing collection. I'm still mainly a mid tier guy for the foreseeable....
Thanks Rusty! You have a collection that's growing in the right direction. Besides you know how to wheel and deal with trades--me? I just have to get lucky! Cheers, Bill
Great video Bill, congratulations on the watch and wear in good health.
Hey Rob, thanks for that. I have it on right now...thinking about having it with a glass of wine. That counts as good health? Right? Kindest regards, Bill
The best looking watch in your collection.
Say Eto Ya, thanks, man! I'm re-thinking how I found this watch. You know, I'm beginning to think, it found me!!! Love the hunt! Kindest regards, Bill
congrats Bill , enjoy that beauty . Great battle plan with almost flawless execution .You re right these very unique pieces are out there and some not so far of our range.
Thanks Pat. Here's how my battle plan went: Research, research, research then: Get lucky!!! In fact, I think that the best part (for me) of getting a watch is the research. I spent weeks on the research, tracking down everything I could; first about retrogrades, and then when I found that the HW had a retrograde by Jean-Marc Wiederrecht, I did even more research--which is still in progress. Were I to buy a Rolex, there is not a pebble unturned on the Rolex forums. There must be millions of Rolex owners who can tell you anything about Rolex. Not so with Harry Winston. When I finally found a HW forum, they guy who was the engine behind the forum had a stroke. (Really, a near-fatal stroke!) I put in a number of queries to the forum, and nothing. Now I have to get in touch with Agenhor as well as Girard-Perregaux to find out about the retrograde module and 3106 GP movement...and what the .B1 (3106.B1 HW designation) stands for. What's not to love about watch collecting?! Cheers, Bill
I really like your way thru collecting as you try to control every aspects before pulling the trigger .On my side such as you, I m constantly improving my knowledge since I started seriously 4 years ago , but I am more an opportunistic or you might say impulsive buyer as I must touch the piece in person first . The good part of living in Jakarta is that brands are perceived differently compare to Europe or USA and great deals can be done as well especially on vintage watches . Enjoy your new watch Bill
Pat, I'm very interested in how things are done in Jakarta compared to US/Europe. What are some of the differences between Jakarta and US/Eu? Thanks, Bill
well here the whole spectrum is covered and as expected dominated by Rolex and there is a huge second hand market due to the high class people being so rich and spoiled.I was so happy to find my El Primero Chronomaster , my Parmigiani Hebdomadaire and my JLC hometime at a very reasonable price because people don't relate much to these brands here ... same for Ulysse Nardin , chopard . When I ve got time I really enjoy going to that place in south Jakarta where second hand market are concentrated ...
Wow!! You certainly have great taste in watches--a Zenith El Primero Chronomaster , Parmigiani Hebdomadaire and JLC Hometime--you are a man who knows how to buy high horology over high advertisement! Way to go! You will be our "Man in Jakarta" and let us know about some of the deals you can get. Kindest regards, Bill
Great video Bill, really enjoyed it, beautiful watch, that collection of yours is really looking the part now !! Oddly i was hoping you would show us what was in the HW box, love seeing all that cool literature that comes with these high end pieces, never mind, cheers.
Hi Terry. You didn't miss anything. One was a user's manual and the other was a warranty book. And the manual was one of those in about 15 different languages and more than one kind of watch. My Vacheron Constantin Historiques American 1921 came with a travel case with room for extra straps, a Flash Drive with all the manuals, and a polishing cloth the size of a beach towel. My L. Leroy Grande Osmior Mécanique Extra-Plate came with a leather single-watch travel roll. The Harry Winston cases look a lot like some of the older F. P. Journe cases--a round pillow and a watch hugging it. Very happy you liked the video. Kindest regards, Bill
Congratulations Professor,
I am really glad to see you happy and well. A very nice watch that has a wonderful theater of time (the way functions are arranged in the dial) plus a striking overall design that is original. ENJOY.
Hey Jaber! Great to hear from you! "Theater of Time" -- what a perfect description of the time indicators in the dial. I'm learning about the Harry Winston line before it was purchased by Swatch, and if you have any information on the HW Premier Excenter Bi-Retrograde (or Biretrogrde) I'd like to hear it. Right now, I'm trying to track down the HW module that runs the retrograde. (By the way, a certain F.P. Journe U.S. representative was so impressed by your work, she sent them to Geneva.) Next week I'm going to show FPJ the rest of them. Your work is incredible. Kindest regards, Bill
Thanks Professor, I will further research your new splendid piece. But if I may ask that you keep enjoying this great time fairy regardless of its mechanism. Wow this piece is full of harmony and style plus day/date functions which I love greatly. Just one last question, does it have a remontoir?
Hi Jabar,
It does not have a remontoir d’égalité, and the watch I want is the F.P. Journe Chronomètre Optimum, which does. Please let me know what you find in your research. The full name is Harry Winston Premier Excenter Bi-Retrograde. They have not made them for at least 10 years. I'm trying to nail down an image of the Harry Winston retrograde module designed by Jean-Marc Wiederrecht and Roger Dubuis. Anything you find would be greatly appreciated. Kindest regards, Bill
Bill that Harry Winston is Exquisite...I have been to the Time Piece Collection they are an hour from where I live. I had a different experience with them and will PM you why.
Hey Don! Thanks man. Sorry to hear that about TPC. Will look for your comments on the PM. Also, I've got some other HW stories that are best left for the PM as well! Saw your VC video. Did you know that Princess Di and Queen Elizabeth both had VCs? Talk about a celebrity endorsement! Cheers, Bill
Aww I loved Princess Di
Great video bill. I found one in yellow gold 38 mm base movement GP3160. The only thing weird is that the original strap is pink leather !! I am not sure if it’s a lady’s watch or HW is too eccentric 😂. Couldn’t get a clear answer from the dealer.
hello sir interesting video and what a brilliant surprise for yourself having such a brilliant watchmaker design the retrograde module in your watch, I never heard of this before,your piece is beautiful wear in good health, thanks for sharing.
Hi Paul. I hate to sound like that guy who's alway preaching "do your research!" but in this case it paid off! I was sniffing around for information on retrogrades when I ran into the HW bi-retrograde. Then I found out that Jean-Marc Wiederrecht and Roger Dubuis were the initial HW watchmakers and saw an affordable back door to some sky-high horology. Kindest regards, Bill
WatchArtSci is the retrograde movement something that you have only come across yourself. ?
The ornate Art Deco styling of that watch is really attractive, nice pickup. I'm done with all these 'minimalist' watch designs, give me something with some character!
Great to hear from you Libaan Ali!! It's funny, I never thought of this watch as Art Deco until you mentioned it, but you are absolutely right...this watch is about as Art Deco as you can get! It's all geometric lines, curves and angles and yet not like a Bauhaus. New York City certainly has enough examples of Art Deco, and that Harry Winston boutique on 5th Avenue is no exception. Thanks for your comment and hope to hear more from you. Kindest regards, Bill
Bill, you bought quite a few watches since your last State Of The Collection review. Its time to do another one.
You are right Eto Ya! I'm planning a SOTC for April to celebrate the 1-Year anniversary of Watch ArtSci! I'm also giving away another watch to those who sent in a collection to review at the same time. So if you have a collection you'd like reviewed, get it in so you will be in the hopper for a free watch. Kindest regards, Bill
As always a great vid Bill. You look at watches from an engineering point of view which I would of course find fascinating. In house or independent? Which is best? Well I guess that depends. Many of the independents have made some amazing movements. The only issue I have with them is that when they are no longer around what do you do? I must assume some watch maker can do something. Quit holding off on that Rolex Bill. You know how I feel about them. I don't think you can go wrong with anything in the Rolex line. Tudor with the in house movement is great as well. Regards!
Thanks Dallas. I'm no engineer, but I like to know what makes a watch tick. When the time is right, I'm sure I'll have a Rolex, but I'm going to let it happen 'naturally' because every time I plan for it, I end up with another watch. Maybe I'll end up trading for one. Who knows? In the meantime I'll just keep exploring. Kindest regards, Bill
Great watch Bill congratulations on the purchase. Do you think the snap back on the movement will need service more regularly than a conventional watch. It looks a pretty smooth action but I wonder if it is like resetting my chrono every 30 second which causes a small shudder to the movement. Kind regards Marcus
Hi Marcus, that's exactly the question I've been asking. The HW retrograde module (designed by Jean-Marc Wiederrecht and Roger Dubuis) goes through 60^2 * 24 * 2 iterations per day-172,800 snap-backs That's 1.2 million per week! So, yeah, I've wondered about that myself. The HW Bi-seconds model has two retrogrades--one doing the first 30 second and the other doing the second 30 seconds! Here's a great animation that shows how retrogrades work in a watch--almost as good as my Popsicle sticks and cardboard model.... ua-cam.com/video/rZSD_Yr19Do/v-deo.html. Kindest regards, Bill
Bill, in the animation, the one at 35 secs looks like a hard landing and the one at 40 secs looks like a soft landing. I would think there would be more wear and tear on the former.
Hi Art. You're probably right. The HW module is run by the Girard-Perregaux movement, and while I'm somewhat familiar with the GP movement (and there's lots of information on it), I've not been so lucky with the Harry Winston retrograde module. The module is referred to as the "HW Module," the "Agenhor Module" and the "Wiederrecht / Dubuis" module, but it's been very difficult to nail down. Now that HW is owned by Swatch and all of their movements will be Blancpain, it's even more difficult. So if you'd like to help out, see if you can find further information of the HW module in the HW Premier Excenter Bi-Retrograde. They haven't made the watch in 10 years; so it's not easy. Thanks, man, Bill
How did the the Harry Winston get passed by HWs quality control, with that glaring mistake on the dial?
It has Monday as the first day of the week, when everyone knows that Sunday is the first day of the week.
Rog, it's a design made for workaholics where everything begins with the work-week; hence Monday on first! (Either that or someone thought it would be sacrilegious to put Sunday at the bottom of a retrograde...a mystery to ponder...) Cheers, Bill
@@watchartsci That means I can't buy one as I'm retired.
@@Rog5446 Exactly! Good thing I bought mine before I retired....😉 Bill
Is that the same Fabrege that was making the royal regalia for the Romonovs, pre communism. Fabrege Eggs etc.?
Hi Timothy, yes it is, but I'm not certain about the lineage ... sometimes a business will buy the name without any other connection. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
I really enjoy your content and believe me I watch a lot of watch videos. Great story, I was watching your video on condition 0 watches, I live in Barbados and the Rolexs here brand new are cheaper than most anything I could find on chrono24 and watchuwant, Just a heads up. I personally am looking forward to buying the new sea dweller everyone is saying could come out in Basel world 2017 with red text. Rolex I think is a top everyday beater watch... which Rolex are you targeting or have in mind.
Hi Nick, at the moment I'm not targeting any Rolex, per se. I suppose if I found a good buy on an Explorer I or Milguass, I might be motivated, but I'm trying to codify my current collection that ranges from FP Journes to Leroy to Vacheron Constantins and now Harry Winston. These choices were not based on the brand but something interesting about the watch. For example, the Video #44 was on how FP Journe (following Breguet and others) used resonance in keeping near perfect time, or how the retrograde works in my Premier Center Biretrograde in my Harry Winston. Barbados sound like the place to visit when thinking about buying a watch! Kindest regards, Bill
Anytime you are ready to take a vacation let me know. Barbados is definitely a great place to visit, its the duty free that allows the good price on brands.
Hey Nick, will do! There's a lot of motivation for a visit to Barbados now!! Cheers, Bill
Indeed it is a very pretty watch, much better than Rolex
Hi Anthony, thanks man! I haven't taken it off since I got it!! Afraid to take it out for anything rough and tumble--need a good Explorer II for that...but every time I save for a Rolex, I end up getting something else! I'll just have to use my Zenith GMT and VC Overseas for outdoorsy stuff. Cheers, Bill
Oh no, not an Explorer ii. You need either and Explorer i or a vintage Explorer. To fit your collection, I think you need to step it up and go with the vintage model.
Hey Art. What's wrong with the Explorer II Polar GMT? I like the looks of it. However, I know I'll probably never get one because when I save up for a Rolex I always find something I like better. Maybe I ought to save up for an Explorer I GMT. Cheers, Bill
To me, Explorer II is not as classy as Explorer I or especially a vintage Explorer. To each his (or her) own, right?
Does the Explorer I have the polar and a GMT? Thanks, Bill
hey bill, you're going too high for us mere mortals ;-) nice retrograde.
Hey Roman...since when are watch collectors morals? Or even human? We have yet to evolve to Neanderthals! However, I didn't pay more for my HW than a guy who buys a Rolex Explorer II. It's just another reason I can't have a Rolex; every time I save up for my Rolex, I find something like the Harry Winston Premier Excenter Bi-Retrograde in 18k gold in pristine condition for the same price....actually a bit less. Not to worry, someday I may be able to get my Roles....Cheers, Bill
That watch has a lot of substance. it looks better on your video than in pictures. The case design is a bit too "baroque" for me but I completely understand why you snapped it over a rolex.
You know, Roman, when I first put on the watch, I got that same sense--too baroque. However, when Libaan Ali mentioned in a comment (below) that it was a perfect example of Art Deco, I realized that's exactly what it is. It has that New York City style of Art Deco that you can see in the top of the Chrysler Building. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Building ) Still getting used to the rose gold coppery look, but it's growing on me. Kindest regards, Bill
He didn't want to chrono 24 it because he thought you would change tour mind after seeing it in the flesh and then he wouldn't get paid. He thought you would think it was ugly after you saw it on the wrist. Good watch, mechanically speaking. But ugly. Gotham city refugee. Fantastic movement though. Just the look aint for me
Timothy, who are you talking about? "He?" You mention "he" who's is that? Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@watchartsci i meant the guy that wanted you to deal with him outside chrono24. Just a guess, that or he didnt want to pay any of the fee associated with listing on sites like chrono24
Ah, yes, him. What I think Timothy, is that he was super-cheap. Had he gone through Chrono24, they would have charged him extra. The result for him, though, was $0. Probably an object lesson there. By the way, why not join our Live Stream this morning at 8am New York time? Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@watchartsci Thank you for the invitation, perhaps I will. Iam very new to the social media world,(and the watch world too). Am I a millennial if iam 36?, young anyway, so i know we're all supposed to be computer programmers from the cradle. LoL, problem is, i went on an extended, about an 11 year extended vacation as i guest of the MASS department of correction. So the last cell phone i had was a Motorola Razor, newest thing in 2008. Lol. Iam telling you all this because if I dont show up on the live stream, ot os most likely a technical error, not a snub to your invite.