Same. Bc I don't count her being a character on The Tudors lol. That very Hollywood/telenovela style show is the only representation I was aware of before Dr. Kat's video! I also found her in my family tree, which I know isn't that special when you go back that far, but it's fun to find those connections, common as they may be.
@@Janelane529 i looked forward to the tudors series and even bought hbo or whatever it was on to watch it. the first scene of henry pleasuring himself for what seemed an eternity behind a cloth held by his valet made me want to vomit. seemed like the whole point of the show was to drive home the message that henry liked sex. we get it but every other scene was someone sweating up the sheets. then the insinuation that mary killed the king of france cinched it for me. never watched another episode and cancelled my hbo subscription. i much prefer facts and good writing to porn on screen. and made up incorrect porn at that.
I would love to see an episode about letter-writing in these times. We see folks writing almost daily to people with whom they lived in the same house.
Thank you for covering Margaret Roper. I appreciate your intelligent coverage of her life. She certainly was an intellect that I would love to know more of. Her father, St. Thomas More is so endlessly fascinating to me. He educated his daughters at a time when girls were not expected to be educated other than to become wives and mothers. Her loyalty to her father and to his legacy is so touching. He had so much courage to resist the oaths which would have spared his life. Because he was more loyal to his beliefs in the Catholic church, he is often thought of as a traitor to his king and is still addressed as such by scholars today. To me he is a pillar of strength, who was even forced to resist the pressure to take the oaths from those he loved more than his own life, reputation and legacy which were all considerable. And yes, please do an episode on St. Thomas More.
As a highly intelligent woman, I expect she knew very well the realities of the political and religious times in which she lived. So, I believe she spent the latter years of her life (after the Act of Succession) in a balancing act to preserve the legacy of her father but also protect the future of her family. This, as well as grief, would go a long way to help interpret her appearance in the miniature as well.
It seems like English people during this period had a shortage of first names so reused them many times. 🙂 Sometimes is hard to remember which Thomas or Margaret or Elizabeth or William is being talked about. You do a good job adding the last names again and again helping us keep them strait. Thanks for this about Margaret Roper. It would have been really interesting to be able to talk with her.
I've been researching my Mennonite ancestors, and they have kept reusing the same names til the present day! (Thank goodness Aganetha fell out of favour in the mid-1900s).
Thomas Roper lived in Canterbury…my home town. The gateway to Roper House can still be seen opposite St Dunstan's Church where Margaret is said to have buried his decapitated head, having rescued it from London Bridge after his execution.
I agree with you. You can see the toll it has taken. Seems like having your portrait done would be the last thing Meg would want to do at this horrible time of her life.
Would love a video covering Saint More, as he has such an interesting life. His promotion and implementation of an academic education for girls and women is admirable. Thank you for such a wonderful video about Margaret.
Uncomfortable with the sait title, it is deeply disturbing that a man who essentially was a fanatical catholic and sentenced (and by numerous accounts personally attended) the torture and death by burning several people for the crime of heresy, or simple owning a version of the Bible in English. Making this man the "patron Saint of statesmen" who are supposed to safeguard democracy and the right to free will appear a bit oxymoron and frankly insulting. I'd love a video on Sir Thomas More, not sure the sainthood is justified.
@@tonjegunasekera4961 Old slanders die hard. In the bio by Prof. R.W. Chambers (who was Protestant), the allegations are taken up and refuted. Statements of torture and death by burning are generally by non-witnesses who are repeating what they were told by More's enemies. More himself wrote "And of all that ever came in my hand for heresy, as help me God, saving, as I said, the sure keeping of them..else had never any of them any stripe or stroke given them, so much as a fillip on the forehead." "...[A]s help me God...." It is difficult to believe that a man who would rather be put to death for refusing to swear falsely concerning the king's "great business" would perjure himself in a matter of his treatment of heretics. He has been called "the man of greatest virtue this island has produced"--not a man cruelly to torture and execute people and then lie under oath about it.
THOMAS MORE!!! I know this is a year on but please!!! Thomas More is one of my favourite people in history. IMHO he was the most moral, steadfast, intelligent and sane person in the court of HarnyvVIII where sanity was in very short supply. His moral courage, making of him a saint, can't be argued in Christian terms. He was also a human being who had children, grandchildren and I'm happy to say, descendants across The Pond (one of many of my ancestors who have made me far more British than anything recognizably American). Thomas More is a lesson in restraint, good judgement, family loyalty and absolute conscience. I'm Buddhist and as such, I can acknowledge his moral lessons in less of a fevered and contentious manner than one Christian sect does for another. On the whole. Christians have been killing each other since the night Jesus died. His disciples had to entrust his body to a Jewish holy man, Joseph of Arimathea because the factions and killing had already begun. (Not to appear too jingoistic but there has never been a Buddhist holy war, and we are barred from any kind of violence unless it is in self-defence of an immediate nature.)That one fact is the only one I've read about or listened to lectures concerning, that makes him human, and not a saint. Of his day, yes, and he stood for his beliefs, crammed into his head as a child that if he didn't believe and do as The Bible said, he'd burn in Hell for eternity, he was indeed a saint, perhaps even Bodhisattva.
You’re so close to 100k, I’m proud of you Dr. K! Your videos have given me much needed reprieve through some really rough stuff…thank you for everything you do 💝
Thank you so much for this. I am a big fan of Thomas More but there's lots of attention paid to him. I am always eager to hear the stories of those in the orbit of famous personages, I find their stories all the more fascinating for being the less well-known.
Could a future video perhaps explore contemporary attitudes in the early modern period, towards all this gore? I find it hard to gauge roughly how common such events were and what proportion of people would have personally viewed them. Is our modern view of people then as inured to brutality totally correct? I ask this because of the mention of heads on spikes after execution … would this have been a mundane fact of life or something more sensitive people shielded their eyes from?
My favourite film ever was ‘A Man For All Seasons.’ My favourite performance by an actor was ‘Paul Scofield’ in the title role. And my favourite ensemble cast was the one for this film. I’ve seen several films which won more Oscars, but I have never seen one I enjoyed or valued more.
I do look forward to a video on Tom More. It's good to know that he was a champion of education for both men and women and provided this for his family. My kids went to St. Thomas More HS, and got a stellar education I have no feminist concerns about Margaret's support of her father. She was maximizing her opportunities for the era in which she lived. Bravo for her. Cool that she was able to translate from Latin and do so much.
Dr. Kat, do you think Margaret’s later writings were “lost” as these things (woefully) happen, or were they suppressed or destroyed? It’s a pity they aren’t extant, I agree. Once again this was fascinating. A future video about their letters (More and Margaret) wouldn’t go amiss. As always, thank you.
As with so much, then and now, it is hard to decipher whether a loss occurs through incompetence or connivance. I lean towards it being down to her contemporaries not thinking her work important enough to preserve or publish in the aftermath of her father’s execution. Maybe it would have been a different story if she’d been executed for refusing to swear too? The martyred daughter of St Thomas would probably receive veneration 🤷🏻♀️
@@ReadingthePast I had the same thought as John Sinclair. Possibly suppressed to limit her and her fathers influence during the early religious transformation from papal authority . As always I enjoy listening to and learning from your videos. Regards
Another extraordinary presentation of one of my favourite Saints. Thank you for your OBJECTIVE presentation Dr. Kat. I was privileged to visit the resting place of the Casket of St Thomas in the Tower of London (Beneath the Beefeaters Residences, and was taken to the cell where St Thomas was kept prisoner. I spent over half an hour visiting on two separate occasions; once in 1998 and then again in 2001. I fulfilled the wishes of the boy I was in school all those years previous when I learned about St Thomas and his family. Thank you for an excellent presentation.
Part of the reason I love your channel so much is this kind of content: information on the "peripheral" figures who are so often overshadowed by royals and those adjacent to royalty. The videos about royalty are also good, but I can't hear about Margaret Roper anywhere else.
Fascinating video - embarrassed I'd not heard of Margaret being interred, disinterred & re-interred with her father's preserved head!! Now that's one very loyal daughter.
Happy to find this in my feed this AM. I always look forward to your videos. Margaret was one of my favourites. I love the idea of an educated woman in a time of general feminine ignorance. Not lack of intelligence, mind! Just lack of opportunity for learning. While I always thought that Sir Thomas More was a bit of a hard-headed, stubborn-unto-death idealist, he did right by his daughter.
Highly enjoyable. Surprised that you didn't mention Robert Bolts A man for all Seasons starring Paul Scholfield. It recounted the life and death of Sir Thomas More. A excellent telling of his shifts to try to avoid death at the hands of Henry VIII
I thought she looked in pain in that portrait (mentally) her father's loss probably ruined her confidence and she probably lived in fear of having the same thing done to her. the fact that She was buried with her father's head is heart warming and heart breaking. She seemed so strong. It's times like this where I hope there is an afterlife of some sort so she can see her father again.
I always have to remind myself that history is a movie and not a snapshot. We read a letter from the past and think "well that's the way it was". But if you could watch the "movie" you would realize that the day the letter was written was a snapshot of how the writer felt at that time on that day. This your most recent posting serves to remind us that a lot of things were going on in Meg's life and opinions and feelings change from day to day. The motivations for her signing the oath of allegiance and trying to get her father to do the same are nuanced and unknowable. I thank you though for getting us to think about the "movie".
I love and appreciate how you bring to life the history of English monarchs. I have held a fascination for them ever since I was a high school girl at 15 and I took out a book from my school library written by Jean Plaidy, The Princess of Celle. Thank you for keeping my interest in English history alive!
I'd read that Holbien of Margaret as grief too, as I doubt Margaret actually raised her children without a lot of help, losing her time to write and study.
Do you think that’s why Holbein painted the portrait of Margaret that way? It looks so real and gives the image of a woman exhausted by grief. Poor lady 👵👵👵👵🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
I was always fascinated by Margaret More Roper. She is probably England''s first female lay scholar. Her filial and intellectual relationship with her father seems to have been deep and defining. I agree the miniature of her at 30 shows an emaciated figure, gaunt because of grief. Poor Margaret. She had to retrieve her father's head from a pike in London Bridge. She probably didn't care about her own security after that trauma. The tales of her keeping the head at home, as a beacon for the opposition to Henry's reformation, may well be true.
As an Irish-American Catholic, I look at Henry VIII with a decidedly jaundiced eye. As well, I see Thomas More as a truly heroic figure. So, I would really look forward to your always fair opinion of Thomas More. Hurry!
Saint Thomas More pray for us. I remember sitting under a tree that was apparently in the garden of Saint Thomas More. It was strange thinking that he himself saw the same tree.
Margaret must have been a very kind, intelligent, & clear minded person, I think, being More's child. Your reading of their final work together feels right; by signing the oath, she gained access to him while imprisoned which would likely have been denied her if she, too, refused to sign. Here's hoping some day more of her work will be found somewhere, somehow.
I love Dr Kat’s videos and was even more thrilled when I learned I am a descendant of Margaret Roper by her son William. My grandfather, Great Grandfather and GGGrand father were Baptist ministers from a long, long line of ministers. My Roper line lives Birmingham, AL so we are far from our Kent origins. Thank you for giving me such a vivid picture of my fascinating ancestor.
I think Margaret had her own ideas. I believe that no matter how much information we have on her that people will believe what they want to be regardless. Look at the royals, we have a never ending supply of information on their lives and yet there is so much that we all disagree on and what we each believe. I believe that for her time she was an independent thinker who knew that if she stepped out of line would endanger not only herself but her entire family and that was something she didn't want to do. It would be nice to have more of her work; however, I am sure that after what happened with her father, she was extremely careful to cover her tracks.
Another wonderful video. I've been interested in the Tudor period since my childhood, but your channel has taught me so much more about this time. I look forward to Friday lunch time each week!
When I saw this pop up I couldn't wait til lunchtime so I could give it my full attention. Look forward to a future video on St. Thomas More. Furthermore, I'd really appreciate your assessment on the different TV/movie portrayals of him. (Paul Scofield vs. Anton Lesser vs. Jeremy Northam).
I've always loved Margaret Roper's story, sad as it is. I also found it interesting that when I checked my "bell" icon, I found your video about Margaret Roper and a link to David Starkey's new video on Thomas More. I look forward to hearing your take on him at some point in the future.
Dr., I always look forward to your excellent presentations. Margaret ? Fortunate for her education, and wondering what sort of individual she would be in the present. Thank you for your time and effort. Patricia. America. 2022. January
through a series of fortuitous associations i came in contact with a lady whose father was a very big wheel in British antiquities. she moved to America and decided she was tired of having all the old dusty antiques her father had collected. through her i came into possession of Margaret More Roper's childhood desk. it is my most treasured antique and i have plenty. i am also an empath of a sort and the desk is alive to me. it confirmed who it belonged to and reminds me whenever i go by it. it sits in my hall under a danse macabre etching by Hans Holbein. i have some furniture from a 1920-1930 Chicago funeral home and they came with many who made their presence known to me. one is a man who stands by my bed sometimes and is accompanied by the smell of a freshly lit cigarette (i do not smoke) but he usually hangs out in my library. i could not believe i actually have something that once was in the home of St Thomas More but there it is. and Margaret has expressed her pleasure in my having the piece and actually knowing what it is. it is in very good condition and the hinges on the top are still intact though they are of a curious design. i know there will be many skeptics but i know what i know. i love your videos. congratulations on having a baby to pass on your deep and interesting knowledge of. history. i feel more intelligent everytime i watch you. i know i seem a raving lunatic but i am used to mockery and disdain as i realized i had this gift as a very young child. i was raised an atheist but suffered a high fever for a few weeks at 5 during which i was given the knowledge of God and this gift from God Himself. I converted to Catholicism at 19 and have never been happier or felt more free.
Thank you for this overview. I find Margaret Roper a much more interesting, human and sympathetic figure than Lady Jane Grey, despite their shared tradition of Tudor female scholarship that Sir Thomas More was responsible for nurturing.
On your way to 100k!!! 🥳🎉 Love this channel, one of my faves. I wish we had more information on Margaret. I think she looks very tired in the miniature and I'm sure that everything going on with her father was a big part of why that is so.
Thank you. It’s so interesting to learn of a (young?) woman of the Tudor Period. Not a princess or mistress or queen or duchess. Most of all, a young woman not unsimilar to today’s modern women…love of our families and education (and seeking higher education). This particular Margaret…seems to be one the Tudor women who actually contributed towards elevating today’s women and our statuses as students/scholars. It’s a lot to think about.
I love your style Dr. Kat. I will go on following you. Can you recomend a social history type site on here, by a similarly erudite historian, please. I'm not on Twitter so I'll find you somewhere else by email maybe, but it's in my head now.
I ADORE Thomas more. He was the best of men, his relationship with Margaret reminds me so much of the relationship between me and my father. I admire Margaret so much, that I've decided that if I have a daughter, I will name her Margaret.
Is there any indication of Margaret’s feelings about her father’s condoning of harsh punishment of those whom he considered heretics? I’ve been led to believe that, rather than being the wry and ironic scholar of “A Man For All Seasons”, More had no problem with torture and burning. I wonder how Meg felt!
Very interesting. I was fascinated to hear of Meg's treatment of Thomas' head. Reminds me of "Isabella and The Pot of Basil". Seems a bit gruesome, but they were different times. David Starkey just posted a very interesting discussion of Thomas More's martydom, comparing his attitude to the attitudes of John Fisher & Thomas à Becket. It was quite wonderful.
I love how he just carried her letters around ready to whip them out for bragging rights about his kids like proud dads do today with photos in their wallet (or now on their iPhones, I guess).
I value certain thoughtfulness in being farewelled and am very touched that you do not tell me to 'Have a good day'. Rather, you tell me that you ...'hope I have a pleasant day....' A nit-picky-ness on my part, but I thank you for it. Also, thank you for reminding me of the life of Margaret Roper. My imagination was captured when I first watched 'A Man For All Seaoms'
Thank, you, Kat, for this very interesting overview of the life of a saint’s daughter. As usual, your presentation is most appreciated. Warmest regards
Am I the only one to have done a double take on being told More remarried a month after his first wife's death ?? It seems even in those times he needed a dispensation and went against friends advice ! It certainly throws a different light on the " learned ascetic " Unless , of course, he needed someone to run his household and care for his children ...even so ...4 weeks !!
It was common to do that. unfortunately people died early sometimes and it was uncommon to have one or more spouses in your life time plus if you had a lot of kids it was kind of necessary.
I love your channel. British history has always been a favorite of mine and I love your research and ability to teach us more of the realistic events that occured during the particular events during the term. Thank you so mch.
Absolutely fascinating! I knew little about Margaret Roper. A video of St. Thomas More will be very welcome! I have friends who attend a St. Thomas More Catholic Church in my area here across the Pond, I'd love to know more about him beyond what is portrayed in "The Tudors" or "A Man For All Seasons" (no disrespect to Jeremy Northam or Paul Scofield!)
I always enjoy your videos, Dr Kat, but this one had me listening with particular interest and twitching ears. Thank you. Very interestingly and lovingly presented.
Margaret must have indeed been superbly intelligent and pious. To have written so eloquently in Latin and other languages at 15 and 16 to the point where Thomas could impress HIS equals and superiors would have been nothing short of remarkable. And we can gain some insight into her family’s interpersonal relationships from the sketch that Hans Holbein made. They looked like a cozy, loving family who enjoyed spending time together! No matter what Margaret’s relationship with her father, she would no doubt have been severely affected by his imprisonment, conviction, and execution. We can only hope the rest of the family closed in together and helped one another along in such a scary and tragic time.
A long overdue overview of Margaret! Thank you. I can’t help but wonder if her letters and writings are extant but attributed to a man of the period. Just a thought. Keep them coming, Dr. Kat! We’re grateful.
Thanks so much for your channel, I love it and I listen to you daily. Any chance of doing that video on Thomas More? Also I would love to see something on Edward the Confessor.
Very interesting! I have to wonder if she took the oath to the Act of Succession strategically for her father's sake or for her children's... I also wonder about her father's perspective on it. Did he support her decision, encourage it, or merely understand it?
DeaDr Kat, thank you for this video. Interesting man. He’s been thought a saint for hundreds of years but, lately, he’s been shown to have feet of clay a bit. Doesn’t alter the fact that it was a gruesome way to go, especially since he had Been such a friend of the king. I don’t know if I could have stood up for my religious convictions in such a way though religion was thought of in such a different way then. But, it wasn’t only about religion was it - was it about religion at all? It was only so henry could rid himself of a previously loved queen ( and a much loved queen of the country) , and marry another ( giving himself the excuse that he needed a son). He, himself, could be extremely harsh on people he thought of as heretics. Wouldn’t you give a lot to be able to go back in time to see and converse these people? ( safely of course). I wonder what we’d think of a lot of people we admire . Hard to be able to put yourself in the time period. May I ask a request. I’ve heard of your lovely photos of your Christmas Day. Would you consider putting one on here? I have no access to the other whatever they’re called. Thank you. Very interesting man and I feel for his daughter and for the family. Must have been hard for them to go forward with their lives. Is there any truth that she carried her fathers skull around with her? 👵👵👵👵🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
I think it's interesting that we lament that we don't know more of Margaret in her own right (without reference to her father) when in a sense we would've been much less likely to know of her at all if her father hadn't been both very prominent and very keen on education. Perhaps she did little after this time, perhaps as you summise her spirit was greatly diminished by the events that led to her father's end and voluntarily withdrew from engaging with society for fear of similar repercussions for herself and family?
It would be wonderful, I think, to be able to read her letters and ideas, ideals, and passion for her father's moral stature. 💙 . It took a toll on her, for sure. One for the deepest love, the other way for wishing he hadn't done it, and would have signed the papers. I am glad he didn't sign them. His soul will thank him.
I am enjoying all you do Kat!! The off shoots and trajectories. From main people of the tudor Era and plantagenet Era. The more obscure the better. The more interesting it is
Very interesting. I must admit my notion of Margaret (and the whole family really) was shaped by "A man for All Seasons" But she was so much more than that, wasn't she? Thank you for bringing her to life.
Erasmus was St. Thomas More’s friend. He lived at the More house for long periods and wrote In Praise of Folly there, so I expect Margaret knew him well.
I know you field of study is early modern but I was wondering if you ever do videos on recent history. I'd like to see a video on Queen Victoria's children or one on Alice of Battenburg. Thank you.
Thank you Kat! I look forward to a second viewing of this video as right now I'm sunbathing in Napa County, California and I know I will be wrapped in blankets and cold soon ( a couple hours) as the world has gone mad (again and right on schedule) O:)
She is an extremely interesting person at this point in history. Most don't know what she did after her father was executed. She bribed the guard to retrieve his head? Thank you for posting 📫
This is the first time I'm learning about Margaret Roper. What an interesting and learned woman.
Same. Bc I don't count her being a character on The Tudors lol. That very Hollywood/telenovela style show is the only representation I was aware of before Dr. Kat's video!
I also found her in my family tree, which I know isn't that special when you go back that far, but it's fun to find those connections, common as they may be.
@@Janelane529 i looked forward to the tudors series and even bought hbo or whatever it was on to watch it. the first scene of henry pleasuring himself for what seemed an eternity behind a cloth held by his valet made me want to vomit. seemed like the whole point of the show was to drive home the message that henry liked sex. we get it but every other scene was someone sweating up the sheets. then the insinuation that mary killed the king of france cinched it for me. never watched another episode and cancelled my hbo subscription. i much prefer facts and good writing to porn on screen. and made up incorrect porn at that.
I would love to see an episode about letter-writing in these times. We see folks writing almost daily to people with whom they lived in the same house.
I second this one!
That would be interesting!
Great idea, yes I’d love to see the same.
They wrote letters to someone they lived with? That would be interesting to know the why of this.
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Thank you for covering Margaret Roper. I appreciate your intelligent coverage of her life. She certainly was an intellect that I would love to know more of. Her father, St. Thomas More is so endlessly fascinating to me. He educated his daughters at a time when girls were not expected to be educated other than to become wives and mothers. Her loyalty to her father and to his legacy is so touching. He had so much courage to resist the oaths which would have spared his life. Because he was more loyal to his beliefs in the Catholic church, he is often thought of as a traitor to his king and is still addressed as such by scholars today. To me he is a pillar of strength, who was even forced to resist the pressure to take the oaths from those he loved more than his own life, reputation and legacy which were all considerable. And yes, please do an episode on St. Thomas More.
Agreed!!!
Her relationship with her dad sounds so sweet, can’t imagine how painful the loss must’ve been
You have to really love someone to keep their head around like that. (Yikes!)
As a highly intelligent woman, I expect she knew very well the realities of the political and religious times in which she lived. So, I believe she spent the latter years of her life (after the Act of Succession) in a balancing act to preserve the legacy of her father but also protect the future of her family. This, as well as grief, would go a long way to help interpret her appearance in the miniature as well.
People aged faster too. Just having so many kids and raising them was enough. 😮
It seems like English people during this period had a shortage of first names so reused them many times. 🙂 Sometimes is hard to remember which Thomas or Margaret or Elizabeth or William is being talked about. You do a good job adding the last names again and again helping us keep them strait.
Thanks for this about Margaret Roper. It would have been really interesting to be able to talk with her.
I've been researching my Mennonite ancestors, and they have kept reusing the same names til the present day! (Thank goodness Aganetha fell out of favour in the mid-1900s).
I guess part was also they passed family names down a lot.
@@OddLeah Ironically I think Aganetha is a pretty damn baddass name. 😏 It's unusual & powerful in vibe. ✊😌 Kind of like Boudicca & Athena.
It was very common to name your children after monarchs and saints.
Thomas Roper lived in Canterbury…my home town. The gateway to Roper House can still be seen opposite St Dunstan's Church where Margaret is said to have buried his decapitated head, having rescued it from London Bridge after his execution.
I agree with you. You can see the toll it has taken. Seems like having your portrait done would be the last thing Meg would want to do at this horrible time of her life.
Would love a video covering Saint More, as he has such an interesting life. His promotion and implementation of an academic education for girls and women is admirable. Thank you for such a wonderful video about Margaret.
Uncomfortable with the sait title, it is deeply disturbing that a man who essentially was a fanatical catholic and sentenced (and by numerous accounts personally attended) the torture and death by burning several people for the crime of heresy, or simple owning a version of the Bible in English. Making this man the "patron Saint of statesmen" who are supposed to safeguard democracy and the right to free will appear a bit oxymoron and frankly insulting. I'd love a video on Sir Thomas More, not sure the sainthood is justified.
@@tonjegunasekera4961 Old slanders die hard. In the bio by Prof. R.W. Chambers (who was Protestant), the allegations are taken up and refuted. Statements of torture and death by burning are generally by non-witnesses who are repeating what they were told by More's enemies. More himself wrote "And of all that ever came in my hand for heresy, as help me God, saving, as I said, the sure keeping of them..else had never any of them any stripe or stroke given them, so much as a fillip on the forehead." "...[A]s help me God...." It is difficult to believe that a man who would rather be put to death for refusing to swear falsely concerning the king's "great business" would perjure himself in a matter of his treatment of heretics. He has been called "the man of greatest virtue this island has produced"--not a man cruelly to torture and execute people and then lie under oath about it.
THOMAS MORE!!! I know this is a year on but please!!! Thomas More is one of my favourite people in history. IMHO he was the most moral, steadfast, intelligent and sane person in the court of HarnyvVIII where sanity was in very short supply. His moral courage, making of him a saint, can't be argued in Christian terms. He was also a human being who had children, grandchildren and I'm happy to say, descendants across The Pond (one of many of my ancestors who have made me far more British than anything recognizably American). Thomas More is a lesson in restraint, good judgement, family loyalty and absolute conscience. I'm Buddhist and as such, I can acknowledge his moral lessons in less of a fevered and contentious manner than one Christian sect does for another. On the whole. Christians have been killing each other since the night Jesus died. His disciples had to entrust his body to a Jewish holy man, Joseph of Arimathea because the factions and killing had already begun. (Not to appear too jingoistic but there has never been a Buddhist holy war, and we are barred from any kind of violence unless it is in self-defence of an immediate nature.)That one fact is the only one I've read about or listened to lectures concerning, that makes him human, and not a saint. Of his day, yes, and he stood for his beliefs, crammed into his head as a child that if he didn't believe and do as The Bible said, he'd burn in Hell for eternity, he was indeed a saint, perhaps even Bodhisattva.
As a teenager I read Utopia and it help in forming my view of the world. The conversations Margaret had with her father must have been amazing.
You’re so close to 100k, I’m proud of you Dr. K! Your videos have given me much needed reprieve through some really rough stuff…thank you for everything you do 💝
Thank you so much for this. I am a big fan of Thomas More but there's lots of attention paid to him. I am always eager to hear the stories of those in the orbit of famous personages, I find their stories all the more fascinating for being the less well-known.
Could a future video perhaps explore contemporary attitudes in the early modern period, towards all this gore? I find it hard to gauge roughly how common such events were and what proportion of people would have personally viewed them. Is our modern view of people then as inured to brutality totally correct? I ask this because of the mention of heads on spikes after execution … would this have been a mundane fact of life or something more sensitive people shielded their eyes from?
I would appreciate same…
My favourite film ever was ‘A Man For All Seasons.’ My favourite performance by an actor was ‘Paul Scofield’ in the title role. And my favourite ensemble cast was the one for this film. I’ve seen several films which won more Oscars, but I have never seen one I enjoyed or valued more.
I do look forward to a video on Tom More. It's good to know that he was a champion of education for both men and women and provided this for his family. My kids went to St. Thomas More HS, and got a stellar education
I have no feminist concerns about Margaret's support of her father. She was maximizing her opportunities for the era in which she lived. Bravo for her. Cool that she was able to translate from Latin and do so much.
Dr. Kat, do you think Margaret’s later writings were “lost” as these things (woefully) happen, or were they suppressed or destroyed? It’s a pity they aren’t extant, I agree. Once again this was fascinating. A future video about their letters (More and Margaret) wouldn’t go amiss. As always, thank you.
As with so much, then and now, it is hard to decipher whether a loss occurs through incompetence or connivance. I lean towards it being down to her contemporaries not thinking her work important enough to preserve or publish in the aftermath of her father’s execution. Maybe it would have been a different story if she’d been executed for refusing to swear too? The martyred daughter of St Thomas would probably receive veneration 🤷🏻♀️
@@ReadingthePast I had the same thought as John Sinclair. Possibly suppressed to limit her and her fathers influence during the early religious transformation from papal authority . As always I enjoy listening to and learning from your videos. Regards
Another extraordinary presentation of one of my favourite Saints. Thank you for your OBJECTIVE presentation Dr. Kat. I was privileged to visit the resting place of the Casket of St Thomas in the Tower of London (Beneath the Beefeaters Residences, and was taken to the cell where St Thomas was kept prisoner. I spent over half an hour visiting on two separate occasions; once in 1998 and then again in 2001. I fulfilled the wishes of the boy I was in school all those years previous when I learned about St Thomas and his family. Thank you for an excellent presentation.
Part of the reason I love your channel so much is this kind of content: information on the "peripheral" figures who are so often overshadowed by royals and those adjacent to royalty. The videos about royalty are also good, but I can't hear about Margaret Roper anywhere else.
Fascinating video - embarrassed I'd not heard of Margaret being interred, disinterred & re-interred with her father's preserved head!!
Now that's one very loyal daughter.
Happy to find this in my feed this AM. I always look forward to your videos. Margaret was one of my favourites. I love the idea of an educated woman in a time of general feminine ignorance. Not lack of intelligence, mind! Just lack of opportunity for learning. While I always thought that Sir Thomas More was a bit of a hard-headed, stubborn-unto-death idealist, he did right by his daughter.
Highly enjoyable. Surprised that you didn't mention Robert Bolts A man for all Seasons starring Paul Scholfield. It recounted the life and death of Sir Thomas More. A excellent telling of his shifts to try to avoid death at the hands of Henry VIII
I thought she looked in pain in that portrait (mentally) her father's loss probably ruined her confidence and she probably lived in fear of having the same thing done to her. the fact that She was buried with her father's head is heart warming and heart breaking. She seemed so strong. It's times like this where I hope there is an afterlife of some sort so she can see her father again.
I always have to remind myself that history is a movie and not a snapshot. We read a letter from the past and think "well that's the way it was". But if you could watch the "movie" you would realize that the day the letter was written was a snapshot of how the writer felt at that time on that day. This your most recent posting serves to remind us that a lot of things were going on in Meg's life and opinions and feelings change from day to day. The motivations for her signing the oath of allegiance and trying to get her father to do the same are nuanced and unknowable. I thank you though for getting us to think about the "movie".
"History is a movie and not a snapshot"; wish I had thought of that.
I love and appreciate how you bring to life the history of English monarchs. I have held a fascination for them ever since I was a high school girl at 15 and I took out a book from my school library written by Jean Plaidy, The Princess of Celle. Thank you for keeping my interest in English history alive!
I used to love the Jean Plaidy books x
I'd read that Holbien of Margaret as grief too, as I doubt Margaret actually raised her children without a lot of help, losing her time to write and study.
Do you think that’s why Holbein painted the portrait of Margaret that way? It looks so real and gives the image of a woman exhausted by grief. Poor lady 👵👵👵👵🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
I was always fascinated by Margaret More Roper. She is probably England''s first female lay scholar. Her filial and intellectual relationship with her father seems to have been deep and defining. I agree the miniature of her at 30 shows an emaciated figure, gaunt because of grief. Poor Margaret. She had to retrieve her father's head from a pike in London Bridge. She probably didn't care about her own security after that trauma. The tales of her keeping the head at home, as a beacon for the opposition to Henry's reformation, may well be true.
As an Irish-American Catholic, I look at Henry VIII with a decidedly jaundiced eye. As well, I see Thomas More as a truly heroic figure. So, I would really look forward to your always fair opinion of Thomas More. Hurry!
This was fascinating! I loved the bit where you mention his family having to write letters in Latin to him.
What an incredible woman and your presentation is impeccable. Thank you!
Thank you, loved this
Saint Thomas More pray for us. I remember sitting under a tree that was apparently in the garden of Saint Thomas More. It was strange thinking that he himself saw the same tree.
Thank you for information on this wonderful tudor woman...so worthy of praise in her own right..
I remember when you had about 2k subscribers!!!
Margaret must have been a very kind, intelligent, & clear minded person, I think, being More's child. Your reading of their final work together feels right; by signing the oath, she gained access to him while imprisoned which would likely have been denied her if she, too, refused to sign.
Here's hoping some day more of her work will be found somewhere, somehow.
Wouldn't that be a fantastic headline for next months history news?
I love Dr Kat’s videos and was even more thrilled when I learned I am a descendant of Margaret Roper by her son William. My grandfather, Great Grandfather and GGGrand father were Baptist ministers from a long, long line of ministers. My Roper line lives Birmingham, AL so we are far from our Kent origins. Thank you for giving me such a vivid picture of my fascinating ancestor.
I think Margaret had her own ideas. I believe that no matter how much information we have on her that people will believe what they want to be regardless. Look at the royals, we have a never ending supply of information on their lives and yet there is so much that we all disagree on and what we each believe. I believe that for her time she was an independent thinker who knew that if she stepped out of line would endanger not only herself but her entire family and that was something she didn't want to do. It would be nice to have more of her work; however, I am sure that after what happened with her father, she was extremely careful to cover her tracks.
Another wonderful video. I've been interested in the Tudor period since my childhood, but your channel has taught me so much more about this time. I look forward to Friday lunch time each week!
When I saw this pop up I couldn't wait til lunchtime so I could give it my full attention.
Look forward to a future video on St. Thomas More. Furthermore, I'd really appreciate your assessment on the different TV/movie portrayals of him. (Paul Scofield vs. Anton Lesser vs. Jeremy Northam).
Thank you for this brilliant account of her life and scholarship. Your videos are always well done and meticulously researched.
I've always loved Margaret Roper's story, sad as it is. I also found it interesting that when I checked my "bell" icon, I found your video about Margaret Roper and a link to David Starkey's new video on Thomas More. I look forward to hearing your take on him at some point in the future.
Dr., I always look forward to your excellent presentations. Margaret ? Fortunate for her education, and wondering what sort of individual she would be in the present. Thank you for your time and effort. Patricia. America. 2022. January
Love these videos Kat, thanks so much, I've learned so much listening to your easy to comprehend lectures.
Your presentation of the topic is outstanding and enables me to better understand. Thank you for sharing your gift.
through a series of fortuitous associations i came in contact with a lady whose father was a very big wheel in British antiquities. she moved to America and decided she was tired of having all the old dusty antiques her father had collected. through her i came into possession of Margaret More Roper's childhood desk. it is my most treasured antique and i have plenty. i am also an empath of a sort and the desk is alive to me. it confirmed who it belonged to and reminds me whenever i go by it. it sits in my hall under a danse macabre etching by Hans Holbein. i have some furniture from a 1920-1930 Chicago funeral home and they came with many who made their presence known to me. one is a man who stands by my bed sometimes and is accompanied by the smell of a freshly lit cigarette (i do not smoke) but he usually hangs out in my library. i could not believe i actually have something that once was in the home of St Thomas More but there it is. and Margaret has expressed her pleasure in my having the piece and actually knowing what it is. it is in very good condition and the hinges on the top are still intact though they are of a curious design. i know there will be many skeptics but i know what i know. i love your videos. congratulations on having a baby to pass on your deep and interesting knowledge of. history. i feel more intelligent everytime i watch you. i know i seem a raving lunatic but i am used to mockery and disdain as i realized i had this gift as a very young child. i was raised an atheist but suffered a high fever for a few weeks at 5 during which i was given the knowledge of God and this gift from God Himself. I converted to Catholicism at 19 and have never been happier or felt more free.
Would love a video on Erasmus. 🤞🏻
Thank you for this overview. I find Margaret Roper a much more interesting, human and sympathetic figure than Lady Jane Grey, despite their shared tradition of Tudor female scholarship that Sir Thomas More was responsible for nurturing.
On your way to 100k!!! 🥳🎉 Love this channel, one of my faves.
I wish we had more information on Margaret. I think she looks very tired in the miniature and I'm sure that everything going on with her father was a big part of why that is so.
Thank you. It’s so interesting to learn of a (young?) woman of the Tudor Period. Not a princess or mistress or queen or duchess. Most of all, a young woman not unsimilar to today’s modern women…love of our families and education (and seeking higher education).
This particular Margaret…seems to be one the Tudor women who actually contributed towards elevating today’s women and our statuses as students/scholars. It’s a lot to think about.
As always and here you died and concise documentation of the history. Thank you so much.
I love your style Dr. Kat. I will go on following you. Can you recomend a social history type site on here, by a similarly erudite historian, please. I'm not on Twitter so I'll find you somewhere else by email maybe, but it's in my head now.
Yahooo! We made it! Thank you! Wonderful
fantastic video! I loved this look into such an interesting woman's life
Clearly a remarkable woman and thank you once again for your thorough insights.
I read A Biography of Margaret years ago . She inspired me greatly xxx Thank You xxx
I ADORE Thomas more. He was the best of men, his relationship with Margaret reminds me so much of the relationship between me and my father. I admire Margaret so much, that I've decided that if I have a daughter, I will name her Margaret.
TY Dr. Kat, I love HERstory!😊
Always interesting and leads to questions of what is lost!
Is there any indication of Margaret’s feelings about her father’s condoning of harsh punishment of those whom he considered heretics? I’ve been led to believe that, rather than being the wry and ironic scholar of “A Man For All Seasons”, More had no problem with torture and burning. I wonder how Meg felt!
Great content, as always! Thank you.
Very interesting. I was fascinated to hear of Meg's treatment of Thomas' head. Reminds me of "Isabella and The Pot of Basil". Seems a bit gruesome, but they were different times. David Starkey just posted a very interesting discussion of Thomas More's martydom, comparing his attitude to the attitudes of John Fisher & Thomas à Becket. It was quite wonderful.
Like you I wish we had a little more of her work 😞 love her relationship with her dad 💖
You are so well-spoken and elegant. I hope to be as intelligent and good at speaking as you are one day. This was an interesting video, thank you!
I love how he just carried her letters around ready to whip them out for bragging rights about his kids like proud dads do today with photos in their wallet (or now on their iPhones, I guess).
Morning! Good to see you!
I value certain thoughtfulness in being farewelled and am very touched that you do not tell me to 'Have a good day'. Rather, you tell me that you ...'hope I have a pleasant day....' A nit-picky-ness on my part, but I thank you for it.
Also, thank you for reminding me of the life of Margaret Roper. My imagination was captured when I first watched 'A Man For All Seaoms'
Very good as always- nice presentation style
Enjoyed! Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge!
Thank, you, Kat, for this very interesting overview of the life of a saint’s daughter. As usual, your presentation is most appreciated. Warmest regards
Love your videos!!! Could you consider doing a video on Mary the first?
I do have one where I explore why she is often known as “Bloody Mary” - so if you search for “Bloody Mary” on my channel page it should pop up 🌟
@@ReadingthePast Thank you so much Dr Kat! Your awesome!!!
Thanks! Makes me long for happier, simpler times.
Am I the only one to have done a double take on being told More remarried a month after his first wife's death ?? It seems even in those times he needed a dispensation and went against friends advice !
It certainly throws a different light on the " learned ascetic " Unless , of course, he needed someone to run his household and care for his children ...even so ...4 weeks !!
It was common to do that. unfortunately people died early sometimes and it was uncommon to have one or more spouses in your life time plus if you had a lot of kids it was kind of necessary.
I love your channel. British history has always been a favorite of mine and I love your research and ability to teach us more of the realistic events that occured during the particular events during the term. Thank you so mch.
Thank you for this video 🥰 Margaret's my ancestor
Absolutely fascinating! I knew little about Margaret Roper. A video of St. Thomas More will be very welcome! I have friends who attend a St. Thomas More Catholic Church in my area here across the Pond, I'd love to know more about him beyond what is portrayed in "The Tudors" or "A Man For All Seasons" (no disrespect to Jeremy Northam or Paul Scofield!)
I always enjoy your videos, Dr Kat, but this one had me listening with particular interest and twitching ears. Thank you. Very interestingly and lovingly presented.
Margaret must have indeed been superbly intelligent and pious. To have written so eloquently in Latin and other languages at 15 and 16 to the point where Thomas could impress HIS equals and superiors would have been nothing short of remarkable.
And we can gain some insight into her family’s interpersonal relationships from the sketch that Hans Holbein made. They looked like a cozy, loving family who enjoyed spending time together!
No matter what Margaret’s relationship with her father, she would no doubt have been severely affected by his imprisonment, conviction, and execution. We can only hope the rest of the family closed in together and helped one another along in such a scary and tragic time.
A long overdue overview of Margaret! Thank you. I can’t help but wonder if her letters and writings are extant but attributed to a man of the period. Just a thought. Keep them coming, Dr. Kat! We’re grateful.
BRILLIANT as always. Thank you! 🙂❤
Thanks so much for your channel, I love it and I listen to you daily. Any chance of doing that video on Thomas More? Also I would love to see something on Edward the Confessor.
Very interesting! I have to wonder if she took the oath to the Act of Succession strategically for her father's sake or for her children's...
I also wonder about her father's perspective on it. Did he support her decision, encourage it, or merely understand it?
DeaDr Kat, thank you for this video. Interesting man. He’s been thought a saint for hundreds of years but, lately, he’s been shown to have feet of clay a bit. Doesn’t alter the fact that it was a gruesome way to go, especially since he had Been such a friend of the king. I don’t know if I could have stood up for my religious convictions in such a way though religion was thought of in such a different way then. But, it wasn’t only about religion was it - was it about religion at all? It was only so henry could rid himself of a previously loved queen ( and a much loved queen of the country) , and marry another ( giving himself the excuse that he needed a son). He, himself, could be extremely harsh on people he thought of as heretics. Wouldn’t you give a lot to be able to go back in time to see and converse these people? ( safely of course). I wonder what we’d think of a lot of people we admire . Hard to be able to put yourself in the time period. May I ask a request. I’ve heard of your lovely photos of your Christmas Day. Would you consider putting one on here? I have no access to the other whatever they’re called. Thank you. Very interesting man and I feel for his daughter and for the family. Must have been hard for them to go forward with their lives. Is there any truth that she carried her fathers skull around with her? 👵👵👵👵🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
Yes! Religion was just a pretext
Gone fishing: H.8 a mass - murderer.Try a double - entendre with Mass !
Excellent, very informative thank you
I think it's interesting that we lament that we don't know more of Margaret in her own right (without reference to her father) when in a sense we would've been much less likely to know of her at all if her father hadn't been both very prominent and very keen on education.
Perhaps she did little after this time, perhaps as you summise her spirit was greatly diminished by the events that led to her father's end and voluntarily withdrew from engaging with society for fear of similar repercussions for herself and family?
Love the accent and knowledge and the cuteness. ❤️🇺🇸✝️🏴
Sad to say...but I've not heard her story before. Thank You!
It would be wonderful, I think, to be able to read her letters and ideas, ideals, and passion for her father's moral stature. 💙 . It took a toll on her, for sure. One for the deepest love, the other way for wishing he hadn't done it, and would have signed the papers. I am glad he didn't sign them. His soul will thank him.
I am enjoying all you do Kat!! The off shoots and trajectories. From main people of the tudor Era and plantagenet Era. The more obscure the better. The more interesting it is
Is there any record of the Vatican Library holding copies of any of these works by Margaret Roper?
Such an interesting and engaging video. Thank you so much for sharing.
Very interesting. I must admit my notion of Margaret (and the whole family really) was shaped by "A man for All Seasons" But she was so much more than that, wasn't she? Thank you for bringing her to life.
Really interesting, thanks Kat xx
Erasmus was St. Thomas More’s friend. He lived at the More house for long periods and wrote In Praise of Folly there, so I expect Margaret knew him well.
I know you field of study is early modern but I was wondering if you ever do videos on recent history. I'd like to see a video on Queen Victoria's children or one on Alice of Battenburg. Thank you.
Thank you Kat! I look forward to a second viewing of this video as right now I'm sunbathing in Napa County, California and I know I will be wrapped in blankets and cold soon ( a couple hours) as the world has gone mad (again and right on schedule) O:)
Another fascinating video about a fascinating person.
Would you please do a video about jaquetta rivers of Denmark. I find her fascinating. 💗
Mother of Elizabeth Woodville?
The mother of Elizabeth Woodville, that is what I was thinking.
@@giselematthews7949 I'm pretty sure that's her
Luxembourg, not Denmark.
@@HabrenOdinsdottir yes x
Margaret was amazing; truly her father's daughter, and.that's saying so much,
She is an extremely interesting person at this point in history.
Most don't know what she did after her father was executed. She bribed the guard to retrieve his head?
Thank you for posting 📫