I really enjoy your channel and when I saw the title to this video it hit home for me. I've been in the LP business for almost 30 years (service tech and manager) and it was refreshing to hear your thought process and rationalization. It's clear you've put a lot of thought into this problem. As you probably already know this is the same dilemma a lot of folks face. Personally I never suggest to my customers to use LPG as there primary source of heat. It's a great back up if you have wood as your primary as it appears you do. LPG will always out shine electric for water heat (recovery time and energy used) and cooking. if you convert a tank type w/h to an on demand you'll have the best of both. Just make sure it has a standing pilot in case you lose power (unless you have a generator). As far As the LPG tank... I would recommend down sizing to a 250 and looking into a supplier that offers price protection plans. Most larger suppliers are typically a little more PER gallon, but offer plans in the summer before fall. Of course if you can swing purchasing a new or decent used 250, you'll be in the best position of all. If you find a used 250, another suggestion is to never pay more than $1 per gallon of capacity in case you need to upgrade or replace any valves. This is just some professional advice from a person that is also a consumer. I hope this helps and keep up the good work on UA-cam. I always look forward to your programs.
I remember as a kid my great grandfather had the exact same setup until the day the propane company gave him some bogus charge also. We are from Wisconsin so that next May he took out his propane water heater and stove and made them electric. He then purchased a 100 pound cylinder and hooked that up to the furnace for the event he got stranded somewhere. He then for the next 15 years of his life called up that same propane company every month or two to tell them where he bought his propane. And Everytime he explained that they never gave him some "shipping charge" for his propane. That's what I'd do if I were you guys plus you can find a used generator for a back up. Love the videos
I purchased a used propane tank and refurbished it, 500 gallons. I shop around for the best price but I don't intend to ever sell my home. Home canning we use a two burner propane camp stove on the back deck doesn't heat up the house that wsy. We can 150 + quarts of tomatoes plus green beans, salsa and homemade. Pasta sauce. Keep up the videos we enjoy them here in southeast Kansas.
I hear you! We just moved and the new house has two hundred gallon tanks (leased) and we barely used 50 gallons this winter. Our plan is to get rid of one tank but like you mentioned there is a minimum purchase that exceeds the amount we need...by a lot! The propane company came out one day to fill the tanks and thankfully I was home and could stop him. The company was going to top off both tanks and just pin the bill to the door. We had no say in when or how much propane we got unless we jumped up and said something. We owned the tank at our previous home and we shopped around and pre-purchased in the summer and saved tons that way. But it was also our only heat source and we used a bunch. Here with the leased tanks that minimum pre-purchase amount is WAY more than we need because we heat with wood. The only thing that runs on propane is the furnace. We've considered converting the water heater and stove but all that costs a bunch too. Ah man....now you got me ranting!
Good information. Wife and I downsized and moved into a rural area. Have central heat and a/c and have yet to use the heat in 3 years. (North Texas). Wood stove installed by us before the first winter. Our 1100 sq ft house hits $80 a month in winter. Will never use anything but wood. It just warms so well! I cut my own from give away, nuisance or storm damage trees and use a County Line splitter. Life is good!
Great video my friend! I decided that when I purchased my fixer upper in Eastern Idaho to buy a 1000 tank, and get it filled near mid-summer. I might start using wood heat in the next couple of years, but decided I didn't want to stress about tank rentals and mid Winter fills and pay the price. The house currently uses an electric water heater and holy moly it's ended up being expensive. Just the cost savings from using a gas water heater would actually pay for the water heater itself within a year (check efficiency/cost to run between the two and it will amaze ya) If I wasn't wrapped up in the massive job of clearing out my mom's estate already I would have done this. But hopefully by next year :/. I also found the same type of savings in switching out to a gas stove, but decided to get that taken care of already. I guess all in all I think propane is a great deal if ya own your own tank, but I think it really depends on the cost of electricity in your area. To make it easy, I would recommend checking out a new electric water heater cost per year to run. Since if you changed to baseboard heaters that it wouldn't make sense to move away from the gas furnace if you don't move to a electric water heater too. Just the cost of running an electric water heater alone per year vs propane might be about equal to what you're paying for propane. Sorry for all the rambling, but hope all that made sense. Thanks again for another great video, and look forward to the next one. :)
A lot of us are missing your videos. If you ever find yourself with enough time to make more videos, we would really enjoy seeing them. Even if you were just sitting at the fireplace sharing your thoughts about different aspects of life in farmland. You have a very level head and are an excellent presenter of thoughts and ideas.
Great video! I have propane on back up to my wood fired boiler (a pressurized aquatherm unit). I use a 120 gallon tank. The propane unit is an on demand takagi tk Jr. There's a circulator pump that pulls water from my boiler and returns it if the temperature drops below the set point. The boiler and on demand heater are off the garage and the water is pumped underground to the house. I have radiant floor heat in the garage and house. Love it. Also a woodstove in the house. Have had this set up for 10 years or more now. Good luck with whatever you decide to. do.
Also have a New Yorker 50 gallon heat exchanger in the house for domestic hot water. Didn't use it this year because of a bad circulator pump. Also maxing out my boiler mostly due to the poorly insulated garage.
If you own your tank you can get gas from different companies but if there is a problem with the tank it is on you to pay to fix it. The company I work for will not charge a lease fee if you get gas once a year. Try to fill the tank in July or August that's when the price is cheapest.
I didn't like paying for a tank that isn't mine. I bought 2 100# tanks and told the propane Co. to pick up the tank. Tanks paid for them selves in 2 years! I now buy from the cheapest Co. and no contract!
These are great questions. What I’ve found is that the Propane industry is actually one of the easier industries to deal with. Simply because there is competition AND you can negotiate with them. I would stay away from the big national companies like Ferrellgas or Amerigas, but most local LP companies are really good to deal with. Remember that if you have a leased tank, it’s the LP company that has all the investment and risk sitting there in your yard. They are in a business to make a profit. That doesn’t make them bad. The only way they make money is by selling you propane. So if you aren’t buying much, they are gonna want some sort of return for their investment. $100 a year is pretty cheap in the long run. Remember that you aren’t responsible for any of the upkeep or maintenance on the tank. 2014 was a terrible year for propane companies too. Many small companies went out of business here in Minnesota and Wisconsin. They have to buy it from the pipelines and then deliver it to you. They have costs to run their business just like any other business. Do you try to negotiate with your local gas station or grocery store or restaurant? Most companies are within .10-.15 cents of each other and are usually more than willing to price match. I heat with wood, but am happy that my propane company will leave their $1400 propane tank at my house for $80 per year even though I fill up once every 4 years. Keep up the great videos.
Thanks for the information concerning propane. Like you, we use propane for our water heater. With the prices of propane and electricity rising in the south we installed a wood stove insert for our fireplace. It is one of the best decisions we made next to installing our solar panels.
Why an insert, I moved into house with one. Most the radiating surface is covered over. Without the blower not much heat. No electric power no blower. Can't cook on an insert.
Great video. I have an exterior wood master 4400 as primary heating for house and water. Propane as as backup. Own propane which has only been topped off twice in 9 years.
I have seen several propane tanks at auctions, Usually with a little bit of propane left in them. I have seen them sell for just a few hundred dollars. Keep your eye out, you might find a good used one. I own my propane tank, and it allow me to purchase from whoever I want. It definitely gives you buying power.
Good rant! I started with an oil furnace, oil hot water. I have now converted to LP boiler, to run a fan coil and my domestic hot water. Next step is a wood boiler when I can afford it. My heat / HW will both be made with wood during the winter. Both will be backed up by LP at all times, too. And it will be central heat, rather than a woodstove that's hot in one room, cool; in others. CERTAINLY more expensive to install, however.
Love to hear the specifics about how you heat and the prices of things in your area. Here is Eastern Wa. Electricity is cheap due to hydro power, so all our heating and stove, water heaters, etc are electric. Luckily the power rarely goes out but when it does it is usually the coldest days. We have a fireplace but I am hoping to buy an insert for it. They are around $1500-2000. As for the $100 every 2 years on the tank that is cheap insurance at only $5 a month to have a backup heat system. I think it is money well spent. If you only use it for occasional use you could switch to a smaller tank, but I think it’s better to have the big tank and just fill it in the summer. That alone probably covers the $100 rental fee. I mean you can’t avoid taxes, medical bills, vehicle maintenance and repair costs, etc. Some costs are simply built in and we can only ever get a degree of separation from these fixed costs.
I'm in my second year in zone 3 Wisconsin. I'm hoping for a wood stove this season. You spend $100 every year or two for tank rental, that's very cheap backup insurance. As for the boiler, you said you lose your power often. What good is that boiler without juice?! Around here the folks love their boilers but they all admit to burning a lot of wood compared to when they just had a wood stove. You are doing such a fine job of providing a warm home for your family with wood. Even if propane prices go through the ceiling, you really aren't using that much. If the price goes nuts, you'll figure something out with wood. You spoke of possible changes to a boiler, or buying your own tank, don't. You are really smart and have a good plan heat wise, just adjust and fine-tune. A wood fired water heater? I've seen 'em in mags, not cheap and your insurance might not like it.
Had the same thoughts over the years. Have geothermal primary heat (electric). Wood heat insert, 500 gal propane (own tank) for backup generator and/or expansion. Not the most cost effective upfront but more independent of others with options. Wood heat is the best!
I also was in the same situation, propane heat and water heater. We installed a wood heater in our basement and cut a hole in our return, and placed a filter in it for our heat pump, so our heat now comes out our vents, just by putting our thermostat on fan only. We also got rid of our propane water heater and got an electric one. I live in NC and propane here is the same. It triples in the winter. So we bite back too. I hate getting taken advantage of. God bless
Good topic. I'm in opposite situation; just bought a house with baseboard and wood heat and was considering propane as the backup, w/h, stove, etc, It all costs up front. GL
I go through the same process that you and your family do. I live in Maine and primarily burn wood, but do have oil as a backup. (gas isn't available here yet) We do not lose our electricity a whole lot, but I'm not foolish enough to think that it couldn't happen and freeze my water lines. The area that my water lines come into is my bike shop, so I have a small woodstove there to keep that area warm. At this point, the stove isn't large enough to keep the area warm without constant care and I hope to replace that this summer. At any rate, I wonder if you have thought of a hard wired generator? I know that they can be expensive, but the thought that it would simply come on when needed would keep the house running and allow everyone to be warm and every day activities wouldn't be an issue. If you should ever decide to sell your house the generator would add value to your house. Thanks for the video, always great information!
Here in Denmark it's possible to get a water heater for a wood boiler that also have a electric heating elemental installed. So in the summer just have turn the electric element and have all the hot water you need without having to use the boiler. I just have a normal water heater and 1000 L (264 gallons) hot water storage with my boiler (Atmos DC18), so in the summer time i only fire up the boiler for a few hours every 3rd or 2nd day - that keeps me with hot water all summer and the bathroom floor warm. A wood boiler system is of course expensive to install, but if you have acess to free firewood - it will return your investment fairly quickly and a good boiler last for 15-20 years if not more.
I just bought a 1000 gallon tank this year. I use about 600 gallons a year keeping my home at around 80 degrees in the winter. Because I have a tank large enough to store an entire year's supply of propane, I can stock up in the dead of summer when the price is the cheapest. Also every propane company I have talked to discounts their price per gallon for large tanks. Before I bought my large tank, I owned two small tanks and pre bought my propane in the summer. The price was still reasonable (around $1.50 a gallon) but with the large tank I can get it for a little over $1 a gallon to a little under that. That's cheaper than natural gas in my area! One advantage to propane is that unlike natural gas and electricity, not only can I shop around but I pay for it only once a year (no monthly bills no heating bills in the winter) and no one can interrupt my supply. I paid $3k for my large tank but it was totally worth it. So the key is to own your own tank and make sure it is large enough to store a year's supply of fuel.
Man! Those are tough questions Eric. But I think that using the propane as that backup heat source is still probably the best idea. I have seen used propane tanks that can be restored, sold on Craigslist for a decent price. That could be an option.
We had same issue . I bought a tank at auction and now can shop but have been staying with same company. They even replaced the regulated when it went out fo 70 bucks. I am very happy not to be under the thumb because of tank lease.
One thing I did to save propane in the winter; I added coils to my wood stove to heat a 40 gallon tank, I plumbed the tank inline "before" my 40 gallon propane water tank, so when someone takes a shower my propane tank is being refilled with hot water from the wood stove and not ice cold well water, (imagine putting a 40 gallon tea kettle on the stove). I could bypass the propane heater if I ever ran out of propane but for now I have the convenience of the propane tank with the lower operating costs. Like you said, it does not help in the summer but it sure does cut down the cost in the winter. We are on well water here and I have seen people struggle with on demand water heaters getting clogged with calcium. In twelve years I have changed out my propane water heater once, that is not bad compared to the constant hassle of doing the cleaning maintenance needed with the on demand heaters.
We started out with dual heat in our new home in 1986, Electric/electric storage heater (It's filled with bricks & during high electrical demand when they cut off the main baseboard heat, the bricks give off the stored heat & a fan blows the heat into the room. Doesn't work worth a damn though!) So we installed a Gas/Electric combination furnace in 1997. The electric being the primary heat source to maintain out off-peak rate & got rid of the brick storage & baseboard heaters. At first, we leased a 100-gallon tank, but then we checked around & found that our gas supplier sold used tanks at a steep discount. We ended up buying a 500-gallon tank for around $450.00. This is the first winter in over 20 years that we've run out of propane after filling up last Oct. due to the electric company cycling us off so often. That was an unexpected hit to the budget, that's for sure. But all-in-all we're glad we bought our tank when we did! We don't need to shop around that much because our gas supplier gives us a good rate for being a loyal customer. We still check the prices every year but so far it's been about 10 cents a gallon cheaper with our supplier because we use a co-op to buy our fuel from. They did zing us for the trucking fee one year though & when we called them on it, we were told the gov. had started requiring them to pay a Hazmat fee for hauling the propane, it was about $57. It was the only time we had that fee tacked on to our bill, I don't know if they just add it to the cost of the propane now though.
I've been in the propane business now for forty years and yea I do own my own tank.Its a small piece of mind but it gives you the flexibility of where and when to buy.What I do is purchase fuel in incraments within your budget.Purchase several times with the vendor of Choice, but do not hold out until your down to 5%.Reputable cos will work you in a schedule and keep you comfortable.As far as giving up your wood heat,hell no I live buy it and will use wood as long as my body provides the strength to do it.When the shit hits the fan,all portable sources of fuel may and will be limited.You can always find some wood
I got a hybrid electric water heater. Cost about $15 a month to heat the water and it doubles as a dehumidifier in the basement. Got $750 rebate from national grid for going green. It’s a little pricer up front but they payoff compared to burning oil was huge. Maybe look into that and just a space heater backup in the basement...
Keep a couple 100lb tanks you can hook up if need be might be an option. We were in the same boat as you, we decided to purchase our own tank, so far we are happy with that decision.
Good idea, but you'll want to verify that you'll get the same price to fill them. When you take a tank in to get it filled you aren't paying .89 per gallon.
@@hubster4477 Wow, propane is SO much cheaper where you live! Propane is more like $2 a gallon here whether you take it in or have someone come out. Are you sure you aren't confusing price per pound and price per gallon? At 53 cents per gallon it would only cost you $10 to fill your 100lb tank (which holds about 20 gallons).
It costs me 53$ to fill a 100# tank at the local campground, cheapest around. It costs about a 100$ to fill it at any gas station around, in my part of michigan. Maybe I didn't get the pound , gallon thing rignt! Hope this helps!
@@hubster4477 Ah, that makes more sense. That is still a pretty decent rate. That equates to $2.22 per gallon. Residential rates are probably more like $1.80-2.00 per gallon (right now in winter), but getting it filled anywhere ranges at least $2.50 a gallon (when other propane is in the $1.80-2.00 range). Still, if you are only using a small amount its way cheaper than paying rent on a tank and you are a lot more self sufficient. Propane is 4.2 pounds per gallon, so your 100lb tank holds about 23 gallons. Portable tanks are generally rated and discussed in pounds, fixed tanks are usually gallons. A 100 gallon tank is about a 3-4 foot sphere that would weigh 600-800 pounds full. The 100lb tank though is under 200 pounds full and is the 16" or so diameter cylinder 4' tall that I'm sure you are using.
So down here in Tx we can throw a propane tank on a trailer or in the back of the truck and take it where ever we want. I actually just bought a used 300gal tank and had it refurbished with new regulator and valves for about $500 for my mom. We are putting a gas "WH" in her house and the range she has always wanted. Based on the numbers we expect that she will get the tank filled once a year or so. Certain times of the year all the propane companies run sales here so it is not uncommon to pay well under $1/gal when getting a tank over 250gal filled. Cheap peace of mind and convenience. It really sounds like your over thinking things. I would say stay away from electric heat unless you want to fork out some cash. Now you could look at geo-thermal.
@@RenaissanceThinking you have not used induction cooktop. Once you use it , gas will look like waste of time. only cheap gas below $1.5/gallon makes sense economically. but convenience wise induction cooktop is better . I didn't say use only electric. That's dumb.
I do the same thing...get mad about getting ripped off. We have a tank and I got mad about the rental mess as well. I checked out purchasing too but realized that satisfying my aggravation would have cost me more in the long run. I've learned over my 57 years to step back and take a breath and then get the emotions out of it and think about whats best for my family. I decided to just look at the rental part of the tank as just a "heat for my family" insurance policy and at less than $10 bucks a month...the cost of a couple of value meals...its well worth it IMHO.
issue is not just rental but you get 20-40% lower gas price , if you own tank and shop around for cheap gas. The same company will sell at lower price if you own your tank as they know you can shop another place if they charge more
We had propane on our farm and caught the $5 / gal spike. We went to Carrier Green Speed units which heat down to 10 degrees F. When it gets really cold, we have an 80,000 BTU fireplace insert which burns wood and heats 3/4 of the house.
I'm in the propane business and remember the 2014 freeze. The barges couldn't dock due to frozen bays up north. so the New England companies started buying into the southern and western regions and it created a shortage. We were in the 6-7$ a gallon range at the time. As for owning your own tank, yes you will save the lease fee but all responsibility falls on you. Tank maintenance and repairs. The other aspect is shopping around. Most of the larger companies will not just come over and deliver like they do with oil without doing a system check for leaks, adequate ventilation and flow tests. Too much liability. Whenever there is a problem like a fire or death by asphyxiation, they go back 10 years when investigating. I would look into scaling the hot water to an electric/solar set up myself. Solar hot water panel with electric backup powered by PV cells and battery back up. Propane is nice, convenient and clean burning, but as with all things, there is a trade off and that's cost. I would recommend to anybody looking to switch to change from automatic delivery to will call and use up the gas you have in the tank BEFORE making the jump. Otherwise you will not only pay for the tank pick up but pay a restocking fee on the gas credit you have coming. If you have a tank bigger than 125 gallons it has to be pumped out before transporting (DOT regulations) That too is an additional cost. You already paid for the gas. Use it.
I got two tanks that I can carry myself . Works at a minimum at below freezing taking one to town with for refilling according to the weather . Works with minimum trouble , always having backup on hand . Thanks All , Thanks be
You may consider heating oil instead of LPG.Your purchase options are greater, you can go get the fuel yourself in your truck, it's a bit less expensive, and you can store & feed your home from a 55-gal. drum instead of renting a tank. Thanks for going through your thought process and for your channel. It provides a fresh (old) perspective on what it truly means to be self-reliant and independent.
Hot water - 1) check out the solar hot water heaters. There are very inexpensive do-it-yourself setups. You could set it up for summer only, install a cutoff and use the hot water tank on your stove for winter. 2) I just stayed at an Airbnb that had an electric tankless and it served us beautifully (3 beds, 2 baths with 5 people taking showers, washing clothes and running the dishwasher). It's very small and can be installed in an interior room and doesn't have to be vented. I live in Georgia and my heating needs are different than yours, but I've been using a small wood stove to heat my home for the winter and using my heat pump as back up for exactly the reasons you mentioned. As long as you have good insulation in the house, I would think the wood stove would be enough. If you don't, that should be where you spend your money - and it will also help a lot on resale. Also, check out the setup on Lumnah Acres. Al uses only wood, I believe, to heat their house and they're in northern New Hampshire, so he may be able to give you better pointers since you have similar requirements. Good luck with your decision making!
Propane is very expressive here in Wyoming we finally got a corn pellet stove self ignition we haven't run our furnace for at least 4years yes we still run our water heater off of propane good luck
Same here. We use propane for water heating and cooking....around 300 gal/yr, but I bought a 500gal underground years ago, then ran up on a real deal (free) for another two 500 gallon above ground, so now we keep 2-3 years worth at any given time. Has let us ride out temporary price spikes in the past.
This could be your best videos in my opinion. I've been through this exact situation. You can do one of two things as I see it. Request them to switch you to a 300 gallon tank in which you will meet your minimum usage and avoid the charge or get two one hundred pound tanks which you can fill your self and plumb them into one kinda like in a camper type setup. You'll always have propane for water heater and plenty in the rate case you need your furnace. In my case I will hopefully be running natural gas in the next couple months and be over it. I'll still just run my stove and water heater and just have furnace for back up incase I happen to be gone or get hurt bad and can't do my wood. I have a bad back and still manage to burn but that could change so I want to be prepared.
I heat with a wood boiler, that heats the pole barn, and domestic hot water. I put 250 gal. of propane in the tank per year, to run the propane water heater in the summer, for the kitchen stove, and have a furnace as a backup, in case the boiler burns out. That's the way things were set up, when I bought the place a year ago, so that's what I'm sticking with for now. It seems to work alright. I hope to have better wood stores put away this year, so it isn't so much work during the winter.
My father had this same problem with a small getaway home in northern MI. By some dumb luck, He got 3 100 Gal propane tanks for dirt cheap (During the whole valve switchover thing years back.) Once a tank went empty he got it filled as needed and still had 1 or two full tanks good to go. During the summer he go up an get them all filled when prices are there lowest. The 100 gal tanks will run you 100-200 so it's an investment
Propane Guy here, I would suggest getting a small loan and getting a bigger tank going for the 1,000 gallon tank. The reason i say this is you purchase your fuel for the 1,000 gallon in the summer when the price is really cheap. The fuel should last you until next summer. Also propane companies love larger tanks, you can also ask for easy payments to buy that fuel to spread out your payments on the fuel as well.
Suburban homesteaders here. House has oil boiler that does hydronic radiators and supplies hot water 24/7. Very wasteful to heat H2O 24/7, so we put it on a timer. Now runs 2x a day, 3 hours in am, 2 hrs in pm. Wood stove in basement put in 2011, heats basement n 1st floor. Works great. 4-7 cords per year. Got oil use down to 600 gallons per year!
Back when I built my house 23 years ago, I bought a used certified tank for less than the price if s bew one. Also I bought 4 cylinder tanks 100 pounders. I take them to get filled at Tractor Supply. That's my emergency back up when I don't have the big bucks for a truck to come out. I use it for heat only
Keep the propane for your hot water and supplemental with wood heat. Buy a big enough tank or multiple tanks to get you through the winter. Shop for the best price and fill them in the summer when it is typically always less. If there are competitive LPG cooperatives in your area? As a member you can get dividends back.
I have a plan for my off grid site where you create and store wood gas to replace LP & NG. All you need is a wood gas generator, a strong air compressor, and a storage tank, and a way to process wood into chips. Wood gas has a lower btu ratting then LP or NG but it's free and it can run anything that uses petroleum based fuels with small modifications to the fuel air mixture. There are many vids and docs that can help you in designing a system to suit your needs. Good luck.
Our farmhouse used to be heated with oil that cost $1000 a month to heat and electricity was another $100 on top of it. So when that 1st winter was over after we bought the place I bit the bullet and put in a geothermal system and removed the oil. The cost of the geo was 50K. and not cheap but the power bill went up to $250 a month average and we get 65% of our water now heated from the system that feeds the utility companies water heater. I also put in a 20kva generator on propane that runs about 5 days to keep the geo unit running in the event of a power failure. Once it came on for 3 days in the dead of a Canadian winter. I'd like to add in 1 wind turbine and some solar panels so all my eggs are not in 1 basket. The wood we burn is just to make 1 room warm and my wife sits out there thus keeping her happy. The heat from the fireplace keeps the geo from kicking in and we turn the temperature down at night as well. Soon we'll take the geo off of heat and put it on AC until fall. So, before Geo, we had no AC and the house was really hot in the summer and for $250 a month yahoo time to celebrate and try to further cut the bill. Propane cost us $100 a year or so on average. Firewood is delivered for $275 a cord as well and we burn 3 cords. Alas, and trees that fall down are cut up to offset some of the imported wood and I'll burn that as well. I hate paying the utility company and the government $50 for taxes and $20 for a service charge.
When I was in the country and had the propane tank and the inflated rate (around $4.50 2007 and 08) likened to break me. I built a wood fire forced air furnace. My fire box was 24"×24"×32" with a 4" air gap and 4"insulation with a squirrel cage fan from an old furnace. Told Payne to come get their tank and used #40 bottles for hot water. I was way warmer and saved tons of $. But burning wood is a buttload of work. You have to find it cut it load it haul it split it stack it cover it bring it in burn it and clean up after it! I love it
I went to an o d boiler in 08 n got cancer about then n I think all that heat got me thru the recovery. Had temps sometimes 85 degrees !! Probably woulda been a tank a month I m down to 100 gallons a year !! I’ve recaptured several $ on another issue n love having all the extra $ to spend as I wish rather than getting my account sucked dry by a chosen few !
Apparently in the 80's, solar water panels were pretty common. They hook them into the tank of a propane or electric water heater, so the sun becomes the primary source of heat and the traditional electric/propane is the backup. Up there since it gets so freaking cold, you'd probably want to encase the whole panel system in glass or clear plastic so the panels don't freeze overnight. If you combine this with switching to an electric water heater, you can keep operating costs down, maintain hot water during a power outage (given there is sunlight), and cut out the propane altogether. Geothermal seems like another good option, but upfront costs can be quite high, they can require quite a bit of digging, and depending on the heat exchange system you use, may still go out with a power outage.
I agree with G Davis. I am doing same thing you are and have been for 6 years now. In past I was never charged rental fee, but last year my supplier was bought out. So I’m thinking I’ll get it this year, so I’m going to a 250gal. I don’t believe this will cost anything, possibly just regulator which is $75. I have every year been pre buying 200 gallons(Incase of health issue or bad winter )and always fill in June about 100-150 gallons, and usually don’t have to pay anything due to pre buy credit that I never used. I have been thinking about making solar water heating panels for free water heat. Ps. Get yourself an old little skid loader to harvest wood! Much easier and faster, this is first video of yours I have watched but so not sure what you all have. Hope this helps. Where you from? I’m in wisconsin
My old cabin (many years ago) had 2 of the 100# propane tanks. I heated the cabin with wood, but the water heater and stove/oven were propane. When one tank emptied, I switched to the other. The empty tank could be strapped vertically into the back of a pick-up (required at that time) and I filled the tank in town. For a full sized home, you might need 3 or 4 of these in the winter, but at least they are a size that you could handle. Is that still feasible today?
had a wood cookstove almost eliminating the need for electric ( use in summer time as not to heat up house ) had a oil furnace as a backup and a generator ( hardwired ) if we went someplace or could not get home .the up front cost was recouped in 5 years
If your wood stove has the connections to heat a water heater then add a 2nd water heater to your existing setup. Install some valves to switch between the electric tank & the wood tank so you can easily switch heat sources. You run the wood stove at least 1/2 the year so you’d only use the electric during the summer which when you average the electricity cost out over a 12 month period it would be minimal. Plus get a high efficiency electric model & they are pretty efficient.
I have a 100 lb bottle for cooking, an electric water heater, and a wonderwood stove for heat. When they started that tank rental stuff I decided to get away from propane as much as possible. I hate all the other hidden/sneaky cost of propane.
Yeah. I used to live in Rhode Island and my house came with a super old heating oil furnace, and there was a 250 gallon tank in the basement. I was going to replace it with a new one but my realtor friend said to swap it over to the natural gas grid. Once you're hooked up to the grid you become covered by the government, and then you'll never have the gas shut off. (I always pay my bills, but it was a good selling point for the next owners.)
Ok, in your situation you mite want to think about a outdoor wood furnace (longwood, hardy) or other brands that supply hot water and heat for your home, shop or barn. Year around use. maybe an electric water heater for backup in the summer months. This has worked for us for many years, and paid for its self many times over.
We had a problem with our propane a couple of years ago (and it's ongoing...). When we bought our home 25 years ago it was heated (badly) with 2 measly junky heaters. We went through a series of upgrades as we could afford them (wall mounts, gas log insert type thing) and then had a propane furnace installed. We bought the house on a land contract and the person who sold it told us they'd went through some type of deal with "Company X" where they paid rent for 'so' long and finally ended up purchasing their tank...so the tank was theirs, now ours, and we could choose our gas company. We knew nothing about buying propane, so we stuck with Company X. We got on a payment plan with them as we were fairly low income and at one point we fell behind on our budget payments. They sent us a nasty letter basically saying "We're not doing business with you any longer." We found a different company who brought a set amount of propane to us, as needed. We got back above water financially and kept ordering set amounts of propane as needed---for the next 15 or so years. A few years ago my husband was in the yard and some guy walked up to him (truck parked at a neighbor's place) and told him he was in the neighborhood for Company X, checking tanks for needed repairs, etc. He asked chatted with my husband for a bit and asked him if he'd like him to take a look at our tank--as if it were a courtesy.....just to let us know if we needed anything repaired because we obviously don't know what's what about them and we weren't committed to a company who might send a repairman to check things regularly. WELL....the next time we called the company we'd went to using to order our propane, they told us they'd gotten a nasty letter saying that they OWNED our tank and if they put propane in it again they'd be sued. We called Company X and they claimed that they owned it. Here's the thing....we have no record of buying or owning it, because that happened under the old owners. In a few days my husband called them again and they were all over the place with their info: They still claimed they owned the tank and that we'd have to use them for propane fills....BUT we don't own them rent (even though they have the "you have to use a certain amount" policy...) and that we don't have to be on a budget plan or anything like that. We are using them for propane fills just to steer clear of trouble...but, if we could afford it, we'd hire a lawyer and figure this out. We're stuck using them and they are the highest of all propane providers in our area. Also, they come when they fill like it....no matter how desperate you are. The one thing we HAVE done is to install 2 wood heaters. We went from using about $1400 worth of propane in an average year....to $500 worth. We only run our furnace when temps are VERY low for an extended period...or if we're gone overnight (happens about once a winter). When we're splitting and stack and hauling wood...and I get very sweaty and tired....I just think of that $%$%%$ company and it keeps me going....gives me the will to cut wood until I'm dead. ;) I hope you find a good solution to your issue! God bless!
WE had propane, switched to nat gas, which sucked and they always raise the rates during the summer before they switch back to winter rates. Finally switched to Pennsylvania Coal. It is work, but its clean burning. Can be a bit warm on a 40 degree day. Can put a water heater element into it. Nothing like a few tons of coal at your home thats paid for and doesnt need to be protected from the elements.
For what its worth, I am in Michigan and with my propane company (family owned) a 500 gallon tank requires 300 gallons per year usage. Since I put in my wood stove I use right around 300 gallons per year. A bit less, so at some point I may end up buying my own tank. We still use propane for water heating, cooking, and the shoulder season heating (or using the stove top to take the edge off in the morning when it got down to 60 and the wood wont warm it up before my wife wakes up). Used propane tanks run around $750 for a 500 gallon tank, so that could be viable. It'd let you shop around for prices too. Another thing is you could do like many of the wood boiler people around here; they run the house off a 100lb tank and have 2 or 3 of those and just take them in to get filled. Yeah, you pay a premium on the propane having it filled (Tractor supply charges about 70 cents per gallon more and a 100lb tank holds 20 gal or so), but if you use that little it will be less than the rental fee. The issue is that 100lb tanks have to be recertified every 10 years or whatever it is (well, all DOT tanks). ASME tanks (household tanks) don't... you can use a 40 year old tank no problem. Just thought I'd throw out another option. I know in my area I currently see a little 100 GALLON tank for $300 listed on craigslist. I need more than that so I wont be buying it, but for your situation it seems about right. And that size you could easily throw onto a trailer. Heck, a 500 gallon should fit on a trailer, it just has to be empty.
What about reducing the propane tank from 500 to 250 or less which could be used for shower and furnace when needed. That should reduce your cost until your able to make a more permanent change? Good luck.
I rented a little apartment that had a propane furnace, cooked with propane, and heated water with propane. It costed me a fortune for a little upstairs apartment.
I have propane and am in the southeast. Propane averages about the same price as premium gas and sometimes higher. What I have found is that a lot of the smaller propane companies have been gobbled up by bigger companies. Amerigas is the owner of a lot of smaller branded companies but they keep the "local" name. I prefer propane because I like it better than the heat pump and if the electricity goes out, I can still run my gas logs in the winter. If an ice storm comes through you can be out of power for several days. They charge me about $100 a year rent for a tank that has been on my property for over 20 years because I don't use as much gas since I have an on-demand gas water heater which has saved me about 1 -2 fill-ups a year.
I think having a second option is important backup plan not nothing propane is in a bad idea long as you own the tank that's a really good idea cuz that's what I've always done always kept them around so I had something to cook outside of the power goes out in Hurricane down here in Florida
We have a $10 per year tank lease which i dont think is too bad. Could the over due charge be because of letting the tank get too low? Usually it can be a safety thing if tanks get below 25%. Our propane requires to come into our home and check for leaks if it gets below that. $100 a year lease seems way too much! Do they have a 250 gallon tank?
You answered the question. Go Solar. I did and it is outstanding. Yes, I live in Florida, past normal electric bills $250/325 per month. Now my electric bill is $31 to $40 per month. I run AC 11 months of the year, pool pump is on 12 months per year. All electric appliances. I have 2 kitchen double door fridges with freezers. I have wine cooler fridge, and a small apt size fridge on my second floor! Solar power actually runs my meter backwards. Even on a cloudy, overcast day, the meter still runs backwards, yes at a slower speed than on a bright sunny day. But it still runs backwards. Propane..... buy your own tank(s). You can fill them in summer when prices are usually lower. I did this at a different home I own. I shop for prices, then buy. Pay them cash, they won't forget you. They can't wait to be back. Cash can and will be buried. Just saying. What state are you in? Good luck.
I have an OWB I am up in Pa. When you pipe it in, you can pipe it to the electric water heater. If the water is coming from the boiler it will not use electric. So even if the boiler goes out you will still have hot water. If you have free wood OWB is the way to go! Just get one with a blower. And if you do use it in the summer to heat water its not as much wood.
Yes, outside wood boilers have an initial high price. I bought mine in 1989 and haven't bought any propane since. I don't even have a tank.I do have a generator for power outages. I'll never go back to that part of the grid.
We switched to a marathon electric water heater. Lifetime tank warranty. They very from $800 to $1000 dollars, so shop around and watch for sales Our REC had a rebate program and I actually got my water heater from them for $200 my monthly electric bill only went up $20 after adding it. The REC also has rebates for electric heat and has a switch makes sense meter that is hooked up to the water heater and heat pump or a/c and electric furnace. Everything in that meter gets reduced from 10 cents per kilowatt to 6 cents per kilowatt. They do this so they can temporarily turn of your power for up to a max of 15 min during peak loads, mostly in summer when a/c loads are high. So I’m switching from propane to a heat pump this summer and installing the witch makes sense meter/control box. No charge for the box, you just have to pay electrician to install.
But they are wood pigs. I just switched to a small new wood stove and getting propane for back up only trading the outdoor stove towards the propane set up. Very happy with the new wood stove. I can cut my own wood for it with a bit of supplemental - it’s a double burn so I can burn softwood too. I have to call tomorrow to find out what it’s going to cost for the propane but I don’t plan to use it or very little.
Boy my o d boiler paid for itself in 3 years n now I burn 100$ / year in propane vs 100$/week n I waste guessing 35% of the heat by not using enough of the free heat. Bought my 500 gallon tank from my supplier as he got tired of me not paying a minimum usage fee n tank was old but wtf.
I had a same issue with my propane company. I only use it for my garage, and they too added on a "minimal use charge" of $65 a quarter, so I told them to come pick their tank up. They changed the fee from $65 a quarter, to $100 a year. We live in New England.
I use propane, but I live in Texas, so it's not exactly the same. Last year I got an electric tankless water heater. I looked at my electric cost for the year and it said if saved 33% on my electric bill from my electric water heater. I've noticed a lot of off grid people using tankless propane heaters, but that's not a good option for me, as sometimes I don't have the money and I run out of propane and have to save to fill it, and just use electric heat till I have the money... it's not that cold here and the electric water heater worked better for me. It works great, I'm so happy with it and the giant decrease in cost to me, saves me in the electric bill too, as I don't have to use that for hot water. That could be one option for you to look into
I heat exclusively with propane. I’m with you. I didn’t like the silly games the propane company plays. After that extreme price spike a few years back I now have my own tanks. I have two 1000 gallon tanks. They were bought used at farm auctions. One was $900 the other was purchased a year later for $875. They both needed cleaned up and painted. But it was not a big deal to do so. 2000 gallons may seem like a lot but there is a method to my madness. The key is I have enough tank that I don’t need a winter fill. I fill them both in July or August which are historically the cheapest months of the year for propane . The $900 tank paid for itself the first year from the offset between the summer and winter price. The $875 tank took two winters to pay for itself due to the difference not being as great that year. I only fill once a year. It seems to me that’s the cheapest way. And I can shop around/haggle for price. They seem more willing to cut a deal on such a large amount. And if they want to charge me some bogus truck charge or other fees I can buy my gas elsewhere.
Here in the northeast propane has been running about $2.50 a gallon if you fill it yourself. I have been pricing the delivery services and they tend to charge even more plus possible rental/service fees. I talked to the service associate at one of the propane businesses and he said a 100 lbs tanks can be filled up and transported by pickup truck, but not by car. 40 lbs tanks were allowed to be transported by car. He said with my low volume demand, the tank should not freeze up. Since I will be manhanding these tanks into place, and I only will be using gas for my dryer and stove/oven, I am going to buy one 40 lbs tank and use the bbq tanks as backup. If I had a high volume demand I would go for the 100 lbs tank. Aside from a pressure regulator, I am also going to install a fuel gauge. I heat with wood, and will have a electric baseboard backup if I am away. For AC, I was also considering a high seer inverter mini split heat pump, which could also be used as a heater for milder winter weather, and would be far more efficient than the electric base. For hot water I am going with a heat pump water heater because I have no access to natural gas and they are miles cheaper to operate than standard electric or propane in my area.
Pellet stove is what I have when I am not around to light the wood stove. My pellet stove has a automatic igniter with a thermostat that allows it to cycle on and off as needed. Pellet stoves don't need a large chimney. The vent pipe is about 12 feet with one tee and one 90 double wall 3 inch pipe for my setup. I had to make it that long for clearance outside as I have a sidewalk on the other side so I had to go above it. Most of the time the vent can be 3 feet and straight through the wall. Check out hot and cold on UA-cam they went through the installation step by step.
Have you double or triple paned your windows? Do you know how to superinsulate your house and build solar heaters out in your south yard?? DO you know how to turn the whole south outside wall of your home into a big solar heater? Do you know how to build an earth bermed rock wall around the north, west, and east walls of your home and a sealed insulated flange roof connecting the rock wall to your home wall? Do you know how to bury foam insulation a foot down in your yard all around your house to make a heat umbrella out of the earth under your home? Do you know how to bury a couple loops of large bore air pipe into the earth beneath the house in postholes? It can heat and cool itself if you do a few little building projects one at a time.
Using the earth and sun is free once the system is paid for... A small wind gen system is not bad on the pocket - solar hot water and solar hot air panels can be made at a very reasonable cost. Building a earth Geo loop to pre heat the the water is smart - so is using an earth berm as mass to increase the value of insulation. Little steps - a wood gasification system is first system I would invest in after the above...
@@mrnobody8540 Consider insulating the ground itself around your home about a foot or so down for a radius, and then maybe a trench and vertical insulation at the perimeter of it. This makes an umbrella of stored heat around the home that your geo-loop can harvest or store into. Either insulated window shutters for nighttime, or triple pane windows work well too.
@@rstevewarmorycom I'm designing an Earth Ship as my personal home, I've always loved that - log was my first home design that had a soft spot - but I love the idea of building from wasted material... As I'm going to be starting to developing my wife's and my new land this year, I have a clean sheet of great raw canvas to work. Half shall be a food Forest, the other earth greenhouse, 💯% off grid as it has none. I plan reforestation work on most of the next lot of land I buy, my aim is 640ac/one section = one square mile of land - my place has a very large Ranch, plus National Forest all around it, 3 big game ranges very close,lots of fishing and very few neighbor's. Yep in nowhere - about one hour drive to town!
We pay a tank rental no matter what, and propane is about $2.89 a gallon right now. We are off grid and passive solar, but we heat water and run the frig and freezer, and cook with propane. The house is super insulated and our supplemental heat is a wood pellet stove. We fill twice a year and 500 gallons lasts us almost a year. Unless you are willing to run a wood boiler for water and heat, I don’t see a way around the propane. Thoughtfully done video.
We wired a switch like a light switch to turn the hot water tank off and on. If we turn it off overnight and make sure to turn it on about 1/2 hr before a shower I do see savings on the electric bill. The thing is how many are in your home and will they do this. When it’s just me I can shut if off at night and it’s still warm enough for my morning shower. They do it this way in Europe apparently only the switch is in the shower? Maybe on demand? I have no idea. But it works for me to save quite a bit. I used to have an outdoor wood stove hot water heater I actually didn’t find it saved me a bunch especially factoring in the amount of wood it used.
My primary heat is wood with propane furnace backup. I had a company owned tank and got dinged for low usage. I bought a 250 gallon tank from a close neighbor and moved it myself. It felt really good when I called the propane company and told them where they could put their tank. Now I fill in the summer and call around for the best price. You say you can't justify the expense of buying your own tank. You can change the equation by buying a valve/hose assembly that allows you to fill tanks rated in pounds from your big tank if you own it. The tanks range from 5 pounds up to 100 pounds with the 20 pound size the most popular. If I take a 20 pounder in to town it costs about $18 to fill. I can fill it from my big tank for under $5. I use the 20 pound tanks for the grill, camper, and ice fishing house. The big tank payed for itself in about 3 years. ua-cam.com/video/bOntBlN6LEM/v-deo.html
I really enjoy your channel and when I saw the title to this video it hit home for me. I've been in the LP business for almost 30 years (service tech and manager) and it was refreshing to hear your thought process and rationalization. It's clear you've put a lot of thought into this problem. As you probably already know this is the same dilemma a lot of folks face. Personally I never suggest to my customers to use LPG as there primary source of heat. It's a great back up if you have wood as your primary as it appears you do. LPG will always out shine electric for water heat (recovery time and energy used) and cooking. if you convert a tank type w/h to an on demand you'll have the best of both. Just make sure it has a standing pilot in case you lose power (unless you have a generator). As far As the LPG tank... I would recommend down sizing to a 250 and looking into a supplier that offers price protection plans. Most larger suppliers are typically a little more PER gallon, but offer plans in the summer before fall. Of course if you can swing purchasing a new or decent used 250, you'll be in the best position of all. If you find a used 250, another suggestion is to never pay more than $1 per gallon of capacity in case you need to upgrade or replace any valves. This is just some professional advice from a person that is also a consumer. I hope this helps and keep up the good work on UA-cam. I always look forward to your programs.
$100 a year for security of knowing you have a reliable back up heat source in my opinion is money well spent
Not bad. You have the peace of mind knowing that the furnance is going to keep your pipes from freezing.
I remember as a kid my great grandfather had the exact same setup until the day the propane company gave him some bogus charge also. We are from Wisconsin so that next May he took out his propane water heater and stove and made them electric. He then purchased a 100 pound cylinder and hooked that up to the furnace for the event he got stranded somewhere. He then for the next 15 years of his life called up that same propane company every month or two to tell them where he bought his propane. And Everytime he explained that they never gave him some "shipping charge" for his propane.
That's what I'd do if I were you guys plus you can find a used generator for a back up. Love the videos
good day to you Eric & Family !! thanks for sharing your adventures and update on & off the farm 🏡🏗️🛠️
I purchased a used propane tank and refurbished it, 500 gallons. I shop around for the best price but I don't intend to ever sell my home. Home canning we use a two burner propane camp stove on the back deck doesn't heat up the house that wsy. We can 150 + quarts of tomatoes plus green beans, salsa and homemade. Pasta sauce. Keep up the videos we enjoy them here in southeast Kansas.
Gary Winters Yep Camp Chef for canning for all the reasons you listed
So, is that like a seven qt. pressure canner heated by both burners?
I hear you! We just moved and the new house has two hundred gallon tanks (leased) and we barely used 50 gallons this winter. Our plan is to get rid of one tank but like you mentioned there is a minimum purchase that exceeds the amount we need...by a lot! The propane company came out one day to fill the tanks and thankfully I was home and could stop him. The company was going to top off both tanks and just pin the bill to the door. We had no say in when or how much propane we got unless we jumped up and said something. We owned the tank at our previous home and we shopped around and pre-purchased in the summer and saved tons that way. But it was also our only heat source and we used a bunch. Here with the leased tanks that minimum pre-purchase amount is WAY more than we need because we heat with wood. The only thing that runs on propane is the furnace. We've considered converting the water heater and stove but all that costs a bunch too. Ah man....now you got me ranting!
Good information. Wife and I downsized and moved into a rural area. Have central heat and a/c and have yet to use the heat in 3 years. (North Texas). Wood stove installed by us before the first winter. Our 1100 sq ft house hits $80 a month in winter. Will never use anything but wood. It just warms so well! I cut my own from give away, nuisance or storm damage trees and use a County Line splitter. Life is good!
Love it!!
Great video my friend! I decided that when I purchased my fixer upper in Eastern Idaho to buy a 1000 tank, and get it filled near mid-summer. I might start using wood heat in the next couple of years, but decided I didn't want to stress about tank rentals and mid Winter fills and pay the price. The house currently uses an electric water heater and holy moly it's ended up being expensive. Just the cost savings from using a gas water heater would actually pay for the water heater itself within a year (check efficiency/cost to run between the two and it will amaze ya) If I wasn't wrapped up in the massive job of clearing out my mom's estate already I would have done this. But hopefully by next year :/. I also found the same type of savings in switching out to a gas stove, but decided to get that taken care of already. I guess all in all I think propane is a great deal if ya own your own tank, but I think it really depends on the cost of electricity in your area. To make it easy, I would recommend checking out a new electric water heater cost per year to run. Since if you changed to baseboard heaters that it wouldn't make sense to move away from the gas furnace if you don't move to a electric water heater too. Just the cost of running an electric water heater alone per year vs propane might be about equal to what you're paying for propane. Sorry for all the rambling, but hope all that made sense. Thanks again for another great video, and look forward to the next one. :)
A lot of us are missing your videos. If you ever find yourself with enough time to make more videos, we would really enjoy seeing them. Even if you were just sitting at the fireplace sharing your thoughts about different aspects of life in farmland. You have a very level head and are an excellent presenter of thoughts and ideas.
Great video! I have propane on back up to my wood fired boiler (a pressurized aquatherm unit). I use a 120 gallon tank. The propane unit is an on demand takagi tk Jr. There's a circulator pump that pulls water from my boiler and returns it if the temperature drops below the set point. The boiler and on demand heater are off the garage and the water is pumped underground to the house. I have radiant floor heat in the garage and house. Love it. Also a woodstove in the house. Have had this set up for 10 years or more now. Good luck with whatever you decide to. do.
Also have a New Yorker 50 gallon heat exchanger in the house for domestic hot water. Didn't use it this year because of a bad circulator pump. Also maxing out my boiler mostly due to the poorly insulated garage.
If you own your tank you can get gas from different companies but if there is a problem with the tank it is on you to pay to fix it. The company I work for will not charge a lease fee if you get gas once a year. Try to fill the tank in July or August that's when the price is cheapest.
I didn't like paying for a tank that isn't mine. I bought 2 100# tanks and told the propane Co. to pick up the tank. Tanks paid for them selves in 2 years! I now buy from the cheapest Co. and no contract!
It you're going to live there forever, why would you rent anything at the house?
Heard about y'all from Deep South Homestead, Wanda and Danny. Sending prayers and praying for you. Blessings
I just stumbled onto your page and was amazed at your common sense, something that has been lost by most younger folks these daze ;)
These are great questions. What I’ve found is that the Propane industry is actually one of the easier industries to deal with. Simply because there is competition AND you can negotiate with them. I would stay away from the big national companies like Ferrellgas or Amerigas, but most local LP companies are really good to deal with. Remember that if you have a leased tank, it’s the LP company that has all the investment and risk sitting there in your yard. They are in a business to make a profit. That doesn’t make them bad. The only way they make money is by selling you propane. So if you aren’t buying much, they are gonna want some sort of return for their investment. $100 a year is pretty cheap in the long run. Remember that you aren’t responsible for any of the upkeep or maintenance on the tank.
2014 was a terrible year for propane companies too. Many small companies went out of business here in Minnesota and Wisconsin. They have to buy it from the pipelines and then deliver it to you. They have costs to run their business just like any other business. Do you try to negotiate with your local gas station or grocery store or restaurant? Most companies are within .10-.15 cents of each other and are usually more than willing to price match.
I heat with wood, but am happy that my propane company will leave their $1400 propane tank at my house for $80 per year even though I fill up once every 4 years.
Keep up the great videos.
Thanks for the information concerning propane. Like you, we use propane for our water heater. With the prices of propane and electricity rising in the south we installed a wood stove insert for our fireplace. It is one of the best decisions we made next to installing our solar panels.
Why an insert, I moved into house with one. Most the radiating surface is covered over. Without the blower not much heat. No electric power no blower. Can't cook on an insert.
Great video.
I have an exterior wood master 4400 as primary heating for house and water. Propane as as backup. Own propane which has only been topped off twice in 9 years.
I have seen several propane tanks at auctions, Usually with a little bit of propane left in them. I have seen them sell for just a few hundred dollars. Keep your eye out, you might find a good used one. I own my propane tank, and it allow me to purchase from whoever I want. It definitely gives you buying power.
Good rant! I started with an oil furnace, oil hot water. I have now converted to LP boiler, to run a fan coil and my domestic hot water. Next step is a wood boiler when I can afford it. My heat / HW will both be made with wood during the winter.
Both will be backed up by LP at all times, too. And it will be central heat, rather than a woodstove that's hot in one room, cool; in others. CERTAINLY more expensive to install, however.
Love to hear the specifics about how you heat and the prices of things in your area. Here is Eastern Wa. Electricity is cheap due to hydro power, so all our heating and stove, water heaters, etc are electric. Luckily the power rarely goes out but when it does it is usually the coldest days. We have a fireplace but I am hoping to buy an insert for it. They are around $1500-2000. As for the $100 every 2 years on the tank that is cheap insurance at only $5 a month to have a backup heat system. I think it is money well spent. If you only use it for occasional use you could switch to a smaller tank, but I think it’s better to have the big tank and just fill it in the summer. That alone probably covers the $100 rental fee. I mean you can’t avoid taxes, medical bills, vehicle maintenance and repair costs, etc. Some costs are simply built in and we can only ever get a degree of separation from these fixed costs.
Totally with you on this
I'm in my second year in zone 3 Wisconsin. I'm hoping for a wood stove this season. You spend $100 every year or two for tank rental, that's very cheap backup insurance. As for the boiler, you said you lose your power often. What good is that boiler without juice?! Around here the folks love their boilers but they all admit to burning a lot of wood compared to when they just had a wood stove. You are doing such a fine job of providing a warm home for your family with wood. Even if propane prices go through the ceiling, you really aren't using that much. If the price goes nuts, you'll figure something out with wood. You spoke of possible changes to a boiler, or buying your own tank, don't. You are really smart and have a good plan heat wise, just adjust and fine-tune. A wood fired water heater? I've seen 'em in mags, not cheap and your insurance might not like it.
Had the same thoughts over the years. Have geothermal primary heat (electric). Wood heat insert, 500 gal propane (own tank) for backup generator and/or expansion. Not the most cost effective upfront but more independent of others with options. Wood heat is the best!
I also was in the same situation, propane heat and water heater. We installed a wood heater in our basement and cut a hole in our return, and placed a filter in it for our heat pump, so our heat now comes out our vents, just by putting our thermostat on fan only. We also got rid of our propane water heater and got an electric one. I live in NC and propane here is the same. It triples in the winter. So we bite back too. I hate getting taken advantage of. God bless
Good topic. I'm in opposite situation; just bought a house with baseboard and wood heat and was considering propane as the backup, w/h, stove, etc, It all costs up front. GL
I go through the same process that you and your family do. I live in Maine and primarily burn wood, but do have oil as a backup. (gas isn't available here yet) We do not lose our electricity a whole lot, but I'm not foolish enough to think that it couldn't happen and freeze my water lines. The area that my water lines come into is my bike shop, so I have a small woodstove there to keep that area warm. At this point, the stove isn't large enough to keep the area warm without constant care and I hope to replace that this summer. At any rate, I wonder if you have thought of a hard wired generator? I know that they can be expensive, but the thought that it would simply come on when needed would keep the house running and allow everyone to be warm and every day activities wouldn't be an issue. If you should ever decide to sell your house the generator would add value to your house. Thanks for the video, always great information!
Here in Denmark it's possible to get a water heater for a wood boiler that also have a electric heating elemental installed. So in the summer just have turn the electric element and have all the hot water you need without having to use the boiler.
I just have a normal water heater and 1000 L (264 gallons) hot water storage with my boiler (Atmos DC18), so in the summer time i only fire up the boiler for a few hours every 3rd or 2nd day - that keeps me with hot water all summer and the bathroom floor warm.
A wood boiler system is of course expensive to install, but if you have acess to free firewood - it will return your investment fairly quickly and a good boiler last for 15-20 years if not more.
I just bought a 1000 gallon tank this year. I use about 600 gallons a year keeping my home at around 80 degrees in the winter. Because I have a tank large enough to store an entire year's supply of propane, I can stock up in the dead of summer when the price is the cheapest. Also every propane company I have talked to discounts their price per gallon for large tanks. Before I bought my large tank, I owned two small tanks and pre bought my propane in the summer. The price was still reasonable (around $1.50 a gallon) but with the large tank I can get it for a little over $1 a gallon to a little under that. That's cheaper than natural gas in my area! One advantage to propane is that unlike natural gas and electricity, not only can I shop around but I pay for it only once a year (no monthly bills no heating bills in the winter) and no one can interrupt my supply. I paid $3k for my large tank but it was totally worth it. So the key is to own your own tank and make sure it is large enough to store a year's supply of fuel.
Man! Those are tough questions Eric. But I think that using the propane as that backup heat source is still probably the best idea. I have seen used propane tanks that can be restored, sold on Craigslist for a decent price. That could be an option.
We had same issue . I bought a tank at auction and now can shop but have been staying with same company. They even replaced the regulated when it went out fo 70 bucks.
I am very happy not to be under the thumb because of tank lease.
One thing I did to save propane in the winter; I added coils to my wood stove to heat a 40 gallon tank, I plumbed the tank inline "before" my 40 gallon propane water tank, so when someone takes a shower my propane tank is being refilled with hot water from the wood stove and not ice cold well water, (imagine putting a 40 gallon tea kettle on the stove).
I could bypass the propane heater if I ever ran out of propane but for now I have the convenience of the propane tank with the lower operating costs.
Like you said, it does not help in the summer but it sure does cut down the cost in the winter.
We are on well water here and I have seen people struggle with on demand water heaters getting clogged with calcium. In twelve years I have changed out my propane water heater once, that is not bad compared to the constant hassle of doing the cleaning maintenance needed with the on demand heaters.
We started out with dual heat in our new home in 1986, Electric/electric storage heater (It's filled with bricks & during high electrical demand when they cut off the main baseboard heat, the bricks give off the stored heat & a fan blows the heat into the room. Doesn't work worth a damn though!) So we installed a Gas/Electric combination furnace in 1997. The electric being the primary heat source to maintain out off-peak rate & got rid of the brick storage & baseboard heaters. At first, we leased a 100-gallon tank, but then we checked around & found that our gas supplier sold used tanks at a steep discount. We ended up buying a 500-gallon tank for around $450.00. This is the first winter in over 20 years that we've run out of propane after filling up last Oct. due to the electric company cycling us off so often. That was an unexpected hit to the budget, that's for sure. But all-in-all we're glad we bought our tank when we did! We don't need to shop around that much because our gas supplier gives us a good rate for being a loyal customer. We still check the prices every year but so far it's been about 10 cents a gallon cheaper with our supplier because we use a co-op to buy our fuel from. They did zing us for the trucking fee one year though & when we called them on it, we were told the gov. had started requiring them to pay a Hazmat fee for hauling the propane, it was about $57. It was the only time we had that fee tacked on to our bill, I don't know if they just add it to the cost of the propane now though.
I've been in the propane business now for forty years and yea I do own my own tank.Its a small piece of mind but it gives you the flexibility of where and when to buy.What I do is purchase fuel in incraments within your budget.Purchase several times with the vendor of Choice, but do not hold out until your down to 5%.Reputable cos will work you in a schedule and keep you comfortable.As far as giving up your wood heat,hell no I live buy it and will use wood as long as my body provides the strength to do it.When the shit hits the fan,all portable sources of fuel may and will be limited.You can always find some wood
I got a hybrid electric water heater. Cost about $15 a month to heat the water and it doubles as a dehumidifier in the basement. Got $750 rebate from national grid for going green. It’s a little pricer up front but they payoff compared to burning oil was huge. Maybe look into that and just a space heater backup in the basement...
I like my outside stove It seems to keep the house warmer I’m gonna hook up my hot water heater this year coming up
This is a great channel. Any new videos coming out?
Keep a couple 100lb tanks you can hook up if need be might be an option. We were in the same boat as you, we decided to purchase our own tank, so far we are happy with that decision.
Good idea, but you'll want to verify that you'll get the same price to fill them. When you take a tank in to get it filled you aren't paying .89 per gallon.
I pay .53 cents a gallon filling my 100# tanks. If I go to a gas station it's always 1$ a gallon. Still less than half price than propane companies.
@@hubster4477 Wow, propane is SO much cheaper where you live! Propane is more like $2 a gallon here whether you take it in or have someone come out. Are you sure you aren't confusing price per pound and price per gallon? At 53 cents per gallon it would only cost you $10 to fill your 100lb tank (which holds about 20 gallons).
It costs me 53$ to fill a 100# tank at the local campground, cheapest around. It costs about a 100$ to fill it at any gas station around, in my part of michigan. Maybe I didn't get the pound , gallon thing rignt! Hope this helps!
@@hubster4477 Ah, that makes more sense. That is still a pretty decent rate. That equates to $2.22 per gallon. Residential rates are probably more like $1.80-2.00 per gallon (right now in winter), but getting it filled anywhere ranges at least $2.50 a gallon (when other propane is in the $1.80-2.00 range). Still, if you are only using a small amount its way cheaper than paying rent on a tank and you are a lot more self sufficient.
Propane is 4.2 pounds per gallon, so your 100lb tank holds about 23 gallons. Portable tanks are generally rated and discussed in pounds, fixed tanks are usually gallons. A 100 gallon tank is about a 3-4 foot sphere that would weigh 600-800 pounds full. The 100lb tank though is under 200 pounds full and is the 16" or so diameter cylinder 4' tall that I'm sure you are using.
So down here in Tx we can throw a propane tank on a trailer or in the back of the truck and take it where ever we want. I actually just bought a used 300gal tank and had it refurbished with new regulator and valves for about $500 for my mom. We are putting a gas "WH" in her house and the range she has always wanted. Based on the numbers we expect that she will get the tank filled once a year or so. Certain times of the year all the propane companies run sales here so it is not uncommon to pay well under $1/gal when getting a tank over 250gal filled. Cheap peace of mind and convenience.
It really sounds like your over thinking things.
I would say stay away from electric heat unless you want to fork out some cash. Now you could look at geo-thermal.
if electric power is $0.10 then induction cooktop is very efficient .
@@davelawson2564
That is a great price. But if the power goes out you're in trouble. Also, cooking on gas is so much better of an experience.
@@RenaissanceThinking you have not used induction cooktop. Once you use it , gas will look like waste of time. only cheap gas below $1.5/gallon makes sense economically.
but convenience wise induction cooktop is better .
I didn't say use only electric. That's dumb.
@@davelawson2564 actually my cook top is induction currently.
I do the same thing...get mad about getting ripped off. We have a tank and I got mad about the rental mess as well. I checked out purchasing too but realized that satisfying my aggravation would have cost me more in the long run. I've learned over my 57 years to step back and take a breath and then get the emotions out of it and think about whats best for my family. I decided to just look at the rental part of the tank as just a "heat for my family" insurance policy and at less than $10 bucks a month...the cost of a couple of value meals...its well worth it IMHO.
How does it cost more in the long run? I'm saving so much since I switched over to 100# tanks it's mind boggling.
issue is not just rental but you get 20-40% lower gas price , if you own tank and shop around for cheap gas. The same company will sell at lower price if you own your tank as they know you can shop another place if they charge more
We had propane on our farm and caught the $5 / gal spike. We went to Carrier Green Speed units which heat down to 10 degrees F. When it gets really cold, we have an 80,000 BTU fireplace insert which burns wood and heats 3/4 of the house.
I'm in the propane business and remember the 2014 freeze. The barges couldn't dock due to frozen bays up north. so the New England companies started buying into the southern and western regions and it created a shortage. We were in the 6-7$ a gallon range at the time. As for owning your own tank, yes you will save the lease fee but all responsibility falls on you. Tank maintenance and repairs. The other aspect is shopping around. Most of the larger companies will not just come over and deliver like they do with oil without doing a system check for leaks, adequate ventilation and flow tests. Too much liability. Whenever there is a problem like a fire or death by asphyxiation, they go back 10 years when investigating. I would look into scaling the hot water to an electric/solar set up myself. Solar hot water panel with electric backup powered by PV cells and battery back up. Propane is nice, convenient and clean burning, but as with all things, there is a trade off and that's cost.
I would recommend to anybody looking to switch to change from automatic delivery to will call and use up the gas you have in the tank BEFORE making the jump. Otherwise you will not only pay for the tank pick up but pay a restocking fee on the gas credit you have coming. If you have a tank bigger than 125 gallons it has to be pumped out before transporting (DOT regulations) That too is an additional cost. You already paid for the gas. Use it.
I got two tanks that I can carry myself . Works at a minimum at below freezing taking one to town with for refilling according to the weather .
Works with minimum trouble , always having backup on hand . Thanks All , Thanks be
You may consider heating oil instead of LPG.Your purchase options are greater, you can go get the fuel yourself in your truck, it's a bit less expensive, and you can store & feed your home from a 55-gal. drum instead of renting a tank. Thanks for going through your thought process and for your channel. It provides a fresh (old) perspective on what it truly means to be self-reliant and independent.
Hot water - 1) check out the solar hot water heaters. There are very inexpensive do-it-yourself setups. You could set it up for summer only, install a cutoff and use the hot water tank on your stove for winter. 2) I just stayed at an Airbnb that had an electric tankless and it served us beautifully (3 beds, 2 baths with 5 people taking showers, washing clothes and running the dishwasher). It's very small and can be installed in an interior room and doesn't have to be vented.
I live in Georgia and my heating needs are different than yours, but I've been using a small wood stove to heat my home for the winter and using my heat pump as back up for exactly the reasons you mentioned. As long as you have good insulation in the house, I would think the wood stove would be enough. If you don't, that should be where you spend your money - and it will also help a lot on resale. Also, check out the setup on Lumnah Acres. Al uses only wood, I believe, to heat their house and they're in northern New Hampshire, so he may be able to give you better pointers since you have similar requirements.
Good luck with your decision making!
You often can find used tanks at farm auctions and such and get them much much cheaper than new.
Propane is very expressive here in Wyoming we finally got a corn pellet stove self ignition we haven't run our furnace for at least 4years yes we still run our water heater off of propane good luck
I bought my own tank and buy from the cheapest dealer. Be sure to be filled up in summer to avoid cold weather rush/price jump. Use wood as primary.
Same here. We use propane for water heating and cooking....around 300 gal/yr, but I bought a 500gal underground years ago, then ran up on a real deal (free) for another two 500 gallon above ground, so now we keep 2-3 years worth at any given time. Has let us ride out temporary price spikes in the past.
Where did you get your wood stove for your house
This could be your best videos in my opinion. I've been through this exact situation. You can do one of two things as I see it. Request them to switch you to a 300 gallon tank in which you will meet your minimum usage and avoid the charge or get two one hundred pound tanks which you can fill your self and plumb them into one kinda like in a camper type setup. You'll always have propane for water heater and plenty in the rate case you need your furnace. In my case I will hopefully be running natural gas in the next couple months and be over it. I'll still just run my stove and water heater and just have furnace for back up incase I happen to be gone or get hurt bad and can't do my wood. I have a bad back and still manage to burn but that could change so I want to be prepared.
I heat with a wood boiler, that heats the pole barn, and domestic hot water. I put 250 gal. of propane in the tank per year, to run the propane water heater in the summer, for the kitchen stove, and have a furnace as a backup, in case the boiler burns out. That's the way things were set up, when I bought the place a year ago, so that's what I'm sticking with for now. It seems to work alright. I hope to have better wood stores put away this year, so it isn't so much work during the winter.
My father had this same problem with a small getaway home in northern MI. By some dumb luck, He got 3 100 Gal propane tanks for dirt cheap (During the whole valve switchover thing years back.) Once a tank went empty he got it filled as needed and still had 1 or two full tanks good to go. During the summer he go up an get them all filled when prices are there lowest.
The 100 gal tanks will run you 100-200 so it's an investment
Propane Guy here, I would suggest getting a small loan and getting a bigger tank going for the 1,000 gallon tank. The reason i say this is you purchase your fuel for the 1,000 gallon in the summer when the price is really cheap. The fuel should last you until next summer. Also propane companies love larger tanks, you can also ask for easy payments to buy that fuel to spread out your payments on the fuel as well.
Suburban homesteaders here. House has oil boiler that does hydronic radiators and supplies hot water 24/7. Very wasteful to heat H2O 24/7, so we put it on a timer. Now runs 2x a day, 3 hours in am, 2 hrs in pm. Wood stove in basement put in 2011, heats basement n 1st floor. Works great. 4-7 cords per year. Got oil use down to 600 gallons per year!
Back when I built my house 23 years ago, I bought a used certified tank for less than the price if s bew one. Also I bought 4 cylinder tanks 100 pounders. I take them to get filled at Tractor Supply. That's my emergency back up when I don't have the big bucks for a truck to come out.
I use it for heat only
Keep the propane for your hot water and supplemental with wood heat. Buy a big enough tank or multiple tanks to get you through the winter. Shop for the best price and fill them in the summer when it is typically always less. If there are competitive LPG cooperatives in your area? As a member you can get dividends back.
Here in the east we have what's called tankfarm.com.Look them up they base there fuels on a coop price
good video. surprised to hear electricity not reliable enough.
I always buy my own propane tank being able to buy from the lowest bider saves a lot
Yea but long is that return on investment?
I have a plan for my off grid site where you create and store wood gas to replace LP & NG. All you need is a wood gas generator, a strong air compressor, and a storage tank, and a way to process wood into chips. Wood gas has a lower btu ratting then LP or NG but it's free and it can run anything that uses petroleum based fuels with small modifications to the fuel air mixture. There are many vids and docs that can help you in designing a system to suit your needs. Good luck.
Our farmhouse used to be heated with oil that cost $1000 a month to heat and electricity was another $100 on top of it. So when that 1st winter was over after we bought the place I bit the bullet and put in a geothermal system and removed the oil. The cost of the geo was 50K. and not cheap but the power bill went up to $250 a month average and we get 65% of our water now heated from the system that feeds the utility companies water heater. I also put in a 20kva generator on propane that runs about 5 days to keep the geo unit running in the event of a power failure. Once it came on for 3 days in the dead of a Canadian winter. I'd like to add in 1 wind turbine and some solar panels so all my eggs are not in 1 basket. The wood we burn is just to make 1 room warm and my wife sits out there thus keeping her happy. The heat from the fireplace keeps the geo from kicking in and we turn the temperature down at night as well. Soon we'll take the geo off of heat and put it on AC until fall. So, before Geo, we had no AC and the house was really hot in the summer and for $250 a month yahoo time to celebrate and try to further cut the bill. Propane cost us $100 a year or so on average. Firewood is delivered for $275 a cord as well and we burn 3 cords. Alas, and trees that fall down are cut up to offset some of the imported wood and I'll burn that as well. I hate paying the utility company and the government $50 for taxes and $20 for a service charge.
I don't know if you have tankless water heater I've had one for 10 years never had a problem they are super efficient
When I was in the country and had the propane tank and the inflated rate (around $4.50 2007 and 08) likened to break me. I built a wood fire forced air furnace. My fire box was 24"×24"×32" with a 4" air gap and 4"insulation with a squirrel cage fan from an old furnace. Told Payne to come get their tank and used #40 bottles for hot water. I was way warmer and saved tons of $. But burning wood is a buttload of work. You have to find it cut it load it haul it split it stack it cover it bring it in burn it and clean up after it! I love it
I went to an o d boiler in 08 n got cancer about then n I think all that heat got me thru the recovery. Had temps sometimes 85 degrees !! Probably woulda been a tank a month I m down to 100 gallons a year !! I’ve recaptured several $ on another issue n love having all the extra $ to spend as I wish rather than getting my account sucked dry by a chosen few !
Apparently in the 80's, solar water panels were pretty common. They hook them into the tank of a propane or electric water heater, so the sun becomes the primary source of heat and the traditional electric/propane is the backup. Up there since it gets so freaking cold, you'd probably want to encase the whole panel system in glass or clear plastic so the panels don't freeze overnight. If you combine this with switching to an electric water heater, you can keep operating costs down, maintain hot water during a power outage (given there is sunlight), and cut out the propane altogether. Geothermal seems like another good option, but upfront costs can be quite high, they can require quite a bit of digging, and depending on the heat exchange system you use, may still go out with a power outage.
I agree with G Davis. I am doing same thing you are and have been for 6 years now. In past I was never charged rental fee, but last year my supplier was bought out. So I’m thinking I’ll get it this year, so I’m going to a 250gal. I don’t believe this will cost anything, possibly just regulator which is $75. I have every year been pre buying 200 gallons(Incase of health issue or bad winter )and always fill in June about 100-150 gallons, and usually don’t have to pay anything due to pre buy credit that I never used. I have been thinking about making solar water heating panels for free water heat.
Ps. Get yourself an old little skid loader to harvest wood! Much easier and faster, this is first video of yours I have watched but so not sure what you all have. Hope this helps. Where you from? I’m in wisconsin
My old cabin (many years ago) had 2 of the 100# propane tanks. I heated the cabin with wood, but the water heater and stove/oven were propane. When one tank emptied, I switched to the other. The empty tank could be strapped vertically into the back of a pick-up (required at that time) and I filled the tank in town. For a full sized home, you might need 3 or 4 of these in the winter, but at least they are a size that you could handle. Is that still feasible today?
Yes, I just lay mine down in the suv. Pay .53 cents a gallon doing it on my own.
With my luck the tank will go dry in the middle of the night and ittl b -25.
Like nowadays, I just got my first wood stove that Is also a cook top and oven.
How I wish prices were when you made this video.
had a wood cookstove almost eliminating the need for electric ( use in summer time as not to heat up house ) had a oil furnace as a backup and a generator ( hardwired ) if we went someplace or could not get home .the up front cost was recouped in 5 years
Did you ever think of supplementing with coal. Out here in AZ its 10 for 100 pounds. Cheaper if naught in bulk.
If your wood stove has the connections to heat a water heater then add a 2nd water heater to your existing setup. Install some valves to switch between the electric tank & the wood tank so you can easily switch heat sources. You run the wood stove at least 1/2 the year so you’d only use the electric during the summer which when you average the electricity cost out over a 12 month period it would be minimal. Plus get a high efficiency electric model & they are pretty efficient.
I have a 100 lb bottle for cooking, an electric water heater, and a wonderwood stove for heat. When they started that tank rental stuff I decided to get away from propane as much as possible. I hate all the other hidden/sneaky cost of propane.
Yeah. I used to live in Rhode Island and my house came with a super old heating oil furnace, and there was a 250 gallon tank in the basement. I was going to replace it with a new one but my realtor friend said to swap it over to the natural gas grid. Once you're hooked up to the grid you become covered by the government, and then you'll never have the gas shut off. (I always pay my bills, but it was a good selling point for the next owners.)
Ok, in your situation you mite want to think about a outdoor wood furnace (longwood, hardy) or other brands that supply hot water and heat for your home, shop or barn. Year around use. maybe an electric water heater for backup in the summer months. This has worked for us for many years, and paid for its self many times over.
We had a problem with our propane a couple of years ago (and it's ongoing...). When we bought our home 25 years ago it was heated (badly) with 2 measly junky heaters. We went through a series of upgrades as we could afford them (wall mounts, gas log insert type thing) and then had a propane furnace installed. We bought the house on a land contract and the person who sold it told us they'd went through some type of deal with "Company X" where they paid rent for 'so' long and finally ended up purchasing their tank...so the tank was theirs, now ours, and we could choose our gas company. We knew nothing about buying propane, so we stuck with Company X. We got on a payment plan with them as we were fairly low income and at one point we fell behind on our budget payments. They sent us a nasty letter basically saying "We're not doing business with you any longer." We found a different company who brought a set amount of propane to us, as needed. We got back above water financially and kept ordering set amounts of propane as needed---for the next 15 or so years. A few years ago my husband was in the yard and some guy walked up to him (truck parked at a neighbor's place) and told him he was in the neighborhood for Company X, checking tanks for needed repairs, etc. He asked chatted with my husband for a bit and asked him if he'd like him to take a look at our tank--as if it were a courtesy.....just to let us know if we needed anything repaired because we obviously don't know what's what about them and we weren't committed to a company who might send a repairman to check things regularly. WELL....the next time we called the company we'd went to using to order our propane, they told us they'd gotten a nasty letter saying that they OWNED our tank and if they put propane in it again they'd be sued. We called Company X and they claimed that they owned it. Here's the thing....we have no record of buying or owning it, because that happened under the old owners. In a few days my husband called them again and they were all over the place with their info: They still claimed they owned the tank and that we'd have to use them for propane fills....BUT we don't own them rent (even though they have the "you have to use a certain amount" policy...) and that we don't have to be on a budget plan or anything like that. We are using them for propane fills just to steer clear of trouble...but, if we could afford it, we'd hire a lawyer and figure this out. We're stuck using them and they are the highest of all propane providers in our area. Also, they come when they fill like it....no matter how desperate you are. The one thing we HAVE done is to install 2 wood heaters. We went from using about $1400 worth of propane in an average year....to $500 worth. We only run our furnace when temps are VERY low for an extended period...or if we're gone overnight (happens about once a winter). When we're splitting and stack and hauling wood...and I get very sweaty and tired....I just think of that $%$%%$ company and it keeps me going....gives me the will to cut wood until I'm dead. ;) I hope you find a good solution to your issue! God bless!
WE had propane, switched to nat gas, which sucked and they always raise the rates during the summer before they switch back to winter rates. Finally switched to Pennsylvania Coal. It is work, but its clean burning. Can be a bit warm on a 40 degree day. Can put a water heater element into it. Nothing like a few tons of coal at your home thats paid for and doesnt need to be protected from the elements.
This was a good channel. When are you coming back?
For what its worth, I am in Michigan and with my propane company (family owned) a 500 gallon tank requires 300 gallons per year usage. Since I put in my wood stove I use right around 300 gallons per year. A bit less, so at some point I may end up buying my own tank. We still use propane for water heating, cooking, and the shoulder season heating (or using the stove top to take the edge off in the morning when it got down to 60 and the wood wont warm it up before my wife wakes up).
Used propane tanks run around $750 for a 500 gallon tank, so that could be viable. It'd let you shop around for prices too. Another thing is you could do like many of the wood boiler people around here; they run the house off a 100lb tank and have 2 or 3 of those and just take them in to get filled. Yeah, you pay a premium on the propane having it filled (Tractor supply charges about 70 cents per gallon more and a 100lb tank holds 20 gal or so), but if you use that little it will be less than the rental fee. The issue is that 100lb tanks have to be recertified every 10 years or whatever it is (well, all DOT tanks). ASME tanks (household tanks) don't... you can use a 40 year old tank no problem. Just thought I'd throw out another option. I know in my area I currently see a little 100 GALLON tank for $300 listed on craigslist. I need more than that so I wont be buying it, but for your situation it seems about right. And that size you could easily throw onto a trailer. Heck, a 500 gallon should fit on a trailer, it just has to be empty.
What about reducing the propane tank from 500 to 250 or less which could be used for shower and furnace when needed. That should reduce your cost until your able to make a more permanent change? Good luck.
I rented a little apartment that had a propane furnace, cooked with propane, and heated water with propane. It costed me a fortune for a little upstairs apartment.
I have propane and am in the southeast. Propane averages about the same price as premium gas and sometimes higher. What I have found is that a lot of the smaller propane companies have been gobbled up by bigger companies. Amerigas is the owner of a lot of smaller branded companies but they keep the "local" name. I prefer propane because I like it better than the heat pump and if the electricity goes out, I can still run my gas logs in the winter. If an ice storm comes through you can be out of power for several days. They charge me about $100 a year rent for a tank that has been on my property for over 20 years because I don't use as much gas since I have an on-demand gas water heater which has saved me about 1 -2 fill-ups a year.
I think having a second option is important backup plan not nothing propane is in a bad idea long as you own the tank that's a really good idea cuz that's what I've always done always kept them around so I had something to cook outside of the power goes out in Hurricane down here in Florida
We have a $10 per year tank lease which i dont think is too bad. Could the over due charge be because of letting the tank get too low? Usually it can be a safety thing if tanks get below 25%. Our propane requires to come into our home and check for leaks if it gets below that. $100 a year lease seems way too much! Do they have a 250 gallon tank?
You answered the question. Go Solar. I did and it is outstanding.
Yes, I live in Florida, past normal electric bills $250/325 per month. Now my electric bill is $31 to $40 per month. I run AC 11 months of the year, pool pump is on 12 months per year. All electric appliances. I have 2 kitchen double door fridges with freezers. I have wine cooler fridge, and a small apt size fridge on my second floor!
Solar power actually runs my meter backwards. Even on a cloudy, overcast day, the meter still runs backwards, yes at a slower speed than on a bright sunny day. But it still runs backwards.
Propane..... buy your own tank(s). You can fill them in summer when prices are usually lower. I did this at a different home I own. I shop for prices, then buy. Pay them cash, they won't forget you. They can't wait to be back. Cash can and will be buried.
Just saying. What state are you in? Good luck.
I have an OWB I am up in Pa. When you pipe it in, you can pipe it to the electric water heater. If the water is coming from the boiler it will not use electric. So even if the boiler goes out you will still have hot water. If you have free wood OWB is the way to go! Just get one with a blower. And if you do use it in the summer to heat water its not as much wood.
Check out a Air Source Heat Pump. It cut our propane use in half
Yes, outside wood boilers have an initial high price. I bought mine in 1989 and haven't bought any propane since. I don't even have a tank.I do have a generator for power outages. I'll never go back to that part of the grid.
We switched to a marathon electric water heater. Lifetime tank warranty. They very from $800 to $1000 dollars, so shop around and watch for sales
Our REC had a rebate program and I actually got my water heater from them for $200 my monthly electric bill only went up $20 after adding it.
The REC also has rebates for electric heat and has a switch makes sense meter that is hooked up to the water heater and heat pump or a/c and electric furnace. Everything in that meter gets reduced from 10 cents per kilowatt to 6 cents per kilowatt. They do this so they can temporarily turn of your power for up to a max of 15 min during peak loads, mostly in summer when a/c loads are high.
So I’m switching from propane to a heat pump this summer and installing the witch makes sense meter/control box. No charge for the box, you just have to pay electrician to install.
Outdoor wood furnace with hot water assist. Keeps all the mess outside and you can burn any wood green or dry.
But they are wood pigs. I just switched to a small new wood stove and getting propane for back up only trading the outdoor stove towards the propane set up. Very happy with the new wood stove. I can cut my own wood for it with a bit of supplemental - it’s a double burn so I can burn softwood too. I have to call tomorrow to find out what it’s going to cost for the propane but I don’t plan to use it or very little.
Boy my o d boiler paid for itself in 3 years n now I burn 100$ / year in propane vs 100$/week n I waste guessing 35% of the heat by not using enough of the free heat. Bought my 500 gallon tank from my supplier as he got tired of me not paying a minimum usage fee n tank was old but wtf.
I had a same issue with my propane company. I only use it for my garage, and they too added on a "minimal use charge" of $65 a quarter, so I told them to come pick their tank up. They changed the fee from $65 a quarter, to $100 a year. We live in New England.
Buy your tank and save that $100/year
I just ignored the bills n bought from someone else They finally offered me a deal I couldn’t refuse n bought the tank. No more control !!
I use propane, but I live in Texas, so it's not exactly the same. Last year I got an electric tankless water heater. I looked at my electric cost for the year and it said if saved 33% on my electric bill from my electric water heater. I've noticed a lot of off grid people using tankless propane heaters, but that's not a good option for me, as sometimes I don't have the money and I run out of propane and have to save to fill it, and just use electric heat till I have the money... it's not that cold here and the electric water heater worked better for me. It works great, I'm so happy with it and the giant decrease in cost to me, saves me in the electric bill too, as I don't have to use that for hot water. That could be one option for you to look into
I heat exclusively with propane. I’m with you. I didn’t like the silly games the propane company plays. After that extreme price spike a few years back I now have my own tanks. I have two 1000 gallon tanks. They were bought used at farm auctions. One was $900 the other was purchased a year later for $875. They both needed cleaned up and painted. But it was not a big deal to do so. 2000 gallons may seem like a lot but there is a method to my madness. The key is I have enough tank that I don’t need a winter fill. I fill them both in July or August which are historically the cheapest months of the year for propane . The $900 tank paid for itself the first year from the offset between the summer and winter price. The $875 tank took two winters to pay for itself due to the difference not being as great that year. I only fill once a year. It seems to me that’s the cheapest way. And I can shop around/haggle for price. They seem more willing to cut a deal on such a large amount. And if they want to charge me some bogus truck charge or other fees I can buy my gas elsewhere.
Here in the northeast propane has been running about $2.50 a gallon if you fill it yourself. I have been pricing the delivery services and they tend to charge even more plus possible rental/service fees. I talked to the service associate at one of the propane businesses and he said a 100 lbs tanks can be filled up and transported by pickup truck, but not by car. 40 lbs tanks were allowed to be transported by car. He said with my low volume demand, the tank should not freeze up. Since I will be manhanding these tanks into place, and I only will be using gas for my dryer and stove/oven, I am going to buy one 40 lbs tank and use the bbq tanks as backup. If I had a high volume demand I would go for the 100 lbs tank. Aside from a pressure regulator, I am also going to install a fuel gauge.
I heat with wood, and will have a electric baseboard backup if I am away. For AC, I was also considering a high seer inverter mini split heat pump, which could also be used as a heater for milder winter weather, and would be far more efficient than the electric base. For hot water I am going with a heat pump water heater because I have no access to natural gas and they are miles cheaper to operate than standard electric or propane in my area.
Pellet stove is what I have when I am not around to light the wood stove. My pellet stove has a automatic igniter with a thermostat that allows it to cycle on and off as needed. Pellet stoves don't need a large chimney. The vent pipe is about 12 feet with one tee and one 90 double wall 3 inch pipe for my setup. I had to make it that long for clearance outside as I have a sidewalk on the other side so I had to go above it. Most of the time the vent can be 3 feet and straight through the wall. Check out hot and cold on UA-cam they went through the installation step by step.
Have you double or triple paned your windows? Do you know how to superinsulate your house and build solar heaters out in your south yard?? DO you know how to turn the whole south outside wall of your home into a big solar heater? Do you know how to build an earth bermed rock wall around the north, west, and east walls of your home and a sealed insulated flange roof connecting the rock wall to your home wall? Do you know how to bury foam insulation a foot down in your yard all around your house to make a heat umbrella out of the earth under your home? Do you know how to bury a couple loops of large bore air pipe into the earth beneath the house in postholes? It can heat and cool itself if you do a few little building projects one at a time.
Looks like you dont either.
@@JM-yx1lm What the fuck makes you think so, moron?
Using the earth and sun is free once the system is paid for...
A small wind gen system is not bad on the pocket - solar hot water and solar hot air panels can be made at a very reasonable cost.
Building a earth Geo loop to pre heat the the water is smart - so is using an earth berm as mass to increase the value of insulation.
Little steps - a wood gasification system is first system I would invest in after the above...
@@mrnobody8540
Consider insulating the ground itself around your home about a foot or so down for a radius, and then maybe a trench and vertical insulation at the perimeter of it. This makes an umbrella of stored heat around the home that your geo-loop can harvest or store into. Either insulated window shutters for nighttime, or triple pane windows work well too.
@@rstevewarmorycom
I'm designing an Earth Ship as my personal home, I've always loved that - log was my first home design that had a soft spot - but I love the idea of building from wasted material...
As I'm going to be starting to developing my wife's and my new land this year, I have a clean sheet of great raw canvas to work.
Half shall be a food Forest, the other earth greenhouse, 💯% off grid as it has none.
I plan reforestation work on most of the next lot of land I buy, my aim is 640ac/one section = one square mile of land - my place has a very large Ranch, plus National Forest all around it, 3 big game ranges very close,lots of fishing and very few neighbor's.
Yep in nowhere - about one hour drive to town!
Unfortunately everyone wants a piece of that pie darling, we Heat by propane and we feel your pain. Much love ❤
We pay a tank rental no matter what, and propane is about $2.89 a gallon right now. We are off grid and passive solar, but we heat water and run the frig and freezer, and cook with propane. The house is super insulated and our supplemental heat is a wood pellet stove. We fill twice a year and 500 gallons lasts us almost a year. Unless you are willing to run a wood boiler for water and heat, I don’t see a way around the propane. Thoughtfully done video.
I bought my own 1000 pound tank and it paid it's self of in 2 years with what I saved.
We wired a switch like a light switch to turn the hot water tank off and on. If we turn it off overnight and make sure to turn it on about 1/2 hr before a shower I do see savings on the electric bill. The thing is how many are in your home and will they do this. When it’s just me I can shut if off at night and it’s still warm enough for my morning shower. They do it this way in Europe apparently only the switch is in the shower? Maybe on demand? I have no idea. But it works for me to save quite a bit. I used to have an outdoor wood stove hot water heater I actually didn’t find it saved me a bunch especially factoring in the amount of wood it used.
My primary heat is wood with propane furnace backup. I had a company owned tank and got dinged for low usage. I bought a 250 gallon tank from a close neighbor and moved it myself. It felt really good when I called the propane company and told them where they could put their tank. Now I fill in the summer and call around for the best price.
You say you can't justify the expense of buying your own tank. You can change the equation by buying a valve/hose assembly that allows you to fill tanks rated in pounds from your big tank if you own it. The tanks range from 5 pounds up to 100 pounds with the 20 pound size the most popular. If I take a 20 pounder in to town it costs about $18 to fill. I can fill it from my big tank for under $5. I use the 20 pound tanks for the grill, camper, and ice fishing house. The big tank payed for itself in about 3 years.
ua-cam.com/video/bOntBlN6LEM/v-deo.html
Can't you buy a couple of 100lb tanks and have them on stand by? You can take those to town and have those refilled when needed.
And filled for half price! That's what I do.
@@hubster4477 hes paying .89 you mean you have places that sell it for .49?
Yes, a campground, only place around that sells it for that price.
Use to have a sawdust water heater, sawdust mixed with kerosene work grate. Just pop in a small waxed bag heated enough to take a shower....
We are lucky to have farm stores on every corner to fill our 100 pound tanks.