Leonard Cohen had a largely academic background and began as a poet. His primary inspiration was Federico Garcia Lorca. He belonged to the Montreal School of Poets which were a group who carefully critiqued each others work and maintained very high standards of artistry. This is the context in which Cohen did his work. He also came much later to musicianship, beginning his career around the age of 33. Bob Dylan spent one year in college at the University of Minnesota, and began his career around the age of 18. His first album came out when he was 20. Dylan didn't just explode with creativity--well, he did, ok, but before he expoded with creativity he apprenticed himself to the field of folk music trying to get his hands on every possible record which he could find, sometimes stealing records from his friends in his desperation to absorb everything he could about folk music. Anyone looking at his work can see exactly how heavily influenced he was by very traditional folk music forms. It took him a while before he was able to create his own style of music and move beyond those traditional forms of folk music. What I would say is that he filled his creative mind up with material like a camel for the journey. That material kept on feeding him for years afterwards, plus the process of apprenticeship to the greats structured his mind so that he was able to immediately identify the potential in musical chords and poetic phrases. Bob Dylan's genius didn't just show up. It was the consequence of careful and meticulous work at the beginning of his career.
That may be true. He also studied various poets, But his *process* of production was as described like a torrent emerging but you are right, he had built a foundation
The way Dylan worked in his peak period can be decribed as "channeling". He is fused with a higher aspect of self and the material comes from that and pours through. However in creating the songs for release Dylan was quite the craftsman and could be very deliberate. You might read Greil Marcus' "Like a Rolling Stone: Bob Dylan at the Crossroads" which gets into this deliberate focus. Good piece, Interesting. Did not know Cohen was so laborious. Makes songs like "it's All Right Ma" and "Desolation Row" all the more remarkable because they were not products of the conscious mind. Cohen was also deeply inspired. He just worked differently.
The artist aims to move us. They have two paths: one is to labor over the creation of a character or a story; the other, to be the character-live the story. It can be done vicariously as well. Some of us can absorb the stories of others and place ourselves in them instantly. Others need to give it deeper analysis, because they are operating from a theoretical place instead. I am interested to know what god(s) might be represented in such an outlook.
This is an interesting insight. Would love you to map it out more. When you say labor over the creation of a character or story we're thinking here of an author or musician creating compelling characters in their stories and compelling narratives to captivate us right? While the other one is to be the character? Is this more like the myth of a character like Dylan? Like the artist themselves becoming enigmatic? And who would be a good example of the giving it a deeper analysis coming from a theoretical place?
@@TheLivingPhilosophy thanks for the reply. I liken it to types of paintings: For some painters, every meticulous little detail in their scene must be just exactly so, and is labored over excruciatingly. Others paint more through use of their intuition, with a more rushed and aggressive sketch art type of style. But of course, to develop this ability and be any good takes great effort and practice! Someone can’t just sit down and start finger painting and tossing splashes on the canvas and produce something of high quality unless they already have the intuition and know what they’re doing. For music and writing, it’s much the same. There has to be a message, and that normally involves a character. A conflict. People who have lots of conflicts in their lives can intuit them a little easier. Whereas someone who has led a rather easygoing life with few real struggles has to try to draw from the struggles of others, and imagine what it would be like, which is much harder. Tolkien had the war. Bierce was beset with many struggles. So were the Shelleys, Mary and Percy (some personal favorites of mine.) It’s harder to point out ones whose lives were simpler, but I’d say there are many.
@@TimBitten Ah yes that reminds me of Merzhekovsky's novel/biography of da Vinci and we see in Leonardo the perfect example of the meticulous artist and in Raphael the perfect example of pure intuition just prodigiously pumping out paintings. Of course they both went through the schools but at the end of their education they were two very different breeds of master. Also love how you mapped it over onto writing I've got a much clearer picture of what you're saying now
I have been arguing with my son that Cohen was better than Dylan but I couldn't exactly put my finger on why. I acknowledge that Dylan is brilliant but to my ear I always felt that Dylan was inspired but rushed or not as deep? I was annoyed because he sounds like Alan Ginsburg in the way he sings and I felt like there was something inauthentic about taking on someone else's way of speaking. Leonard Cohen, on the other hand, came at music from a deeper angle and was more profound. Leonard Cohen is a Sunday dinner with the whole family present and Dylan is a rich piece of chocolate cake you eat at a restaurant. One is nutritious and makes me feel full for ages after while the other is sweet, delicious but fleeting. Thank you for this take on how the inspiration came through both. This is brilliant. I'll have to go back and listen to Dylan with this in mind. Keep up this channel. I love your insights!
Haha!! this is brilliant!! Well if I can help anyone appreciate Dylan a little more then I feel I have succeeded. I love the uncut unpolished nature of his stuff. I think it's admirable in a completely different way than Cohen's approach. It's managing to align yourself with some inspirational flow. It's more fascinating from a psychological point of view and tends to work better in a feeling way than a mental way if that makes sense? But I gotta admit this chocolate cake/sunday dinner analogy is a both a witty and a thoughtful way of putting it. I understand your point and I'm having to digest my thoughts on it so we'll see what emerges but thank you for that
I think this is an unfair judgment. I do agree Cohen imo seemed to get to a mystical place within Dylan longed for but could not reach. Thus at times his texture seems deeper. But the longing for Dylan comes out in great depth in Visions ofJohanna and other songs. Plus no one leveled the critique of American depravity like Dylan. To not realize the enormous depth of "Hard Rain", "It's All Right Ma", "Desolation row" and many other songs is rather ludicrous. As much as I like Cohen's morre trenchent later political songs, he was mining territory Dylan had mined thoroughly decades before
@@kenkaplan3654 Bob Dylan wrote: I give her my heart but she wanted my soul But don’t think twice, it’s all right. I keep my opinion because Cohen gave me his soul. A while ago Dylan remarked that while others wrote songs, Cohen wrote prayers. I agree wholeheartedly. The truth is, these men appreciated the genius of each other, so in the big scheme of things that is all that really matters as both of them were capable of recognising genius in others. My whole thought process may even be "ludicrous" as you suggest. I fully recognise that I'm not a lyricist, just a lover of beautiful music and I don't think it does any harm to the world that I don't think exactly like others do. Your ears think that Dylan is superior, while I favour Cohen. That's how life goes, doesn't it? To quote Cohen now: "well, never mind, we are ugly, but we have the music." Have a fabulous weekend Ken!
@@mindsetsquare I didn't say superior, I said different. I appreciate Cohen's depth, I adore him and think he is the only songweriter in Dylan's league. But to say Dylan lacked depth and was primarily derivative is to completely misunderstand the man and his music. You don't write 'it's All Right Ma", which stunned everyone and at the time no one could even imagine or fathom in songwriting much less emulate. Their depth was different. Cohen wrote Suzanne. Dylan wrote "Love Minus Zero. No limit". Cohen wrote "That's no Way to Say Goodbye", Dylan wrote "Just Like a Woman". Cohen wrote "Everybody Knows". Dylan wrote "It's All Right Ma" and dozens of songs eviscerating perverted norms. Cohen wrote 'Anthem", Dylan wrote "All Along the Watctower" I think later Cohen is better than later Dylan and I like later Cohen better than early Cohen. but we must take the entire body of work. Greil Marcus said of Dylan, (paraphrase) "for a short time the world pivoted on the movement of one man".Cohen is truly great but Dylan is a colossus. As said I doubt without Dylan "The Future" ever gets made. I think Dylan was slightly more accessible but never to say he did not have great depth. Blonde on Blonde is * all depth* emotionally. I listened for the first time to "Stuck Inside of Mobile" and came to this verse "Now the senator came down here Showing ev’ryone his gun Handing out free tickets To the wedding of his son An’ me, I nearly got busted An’ wouldn’t it be my luck To get caught without a ticket And be discovered beneath a truck Oh, Mama, can this really be the end To be stuck inside of Mobile With the Memphis blues again" I was with a younger couple and I started crying, sobbing. The boy looked at me and said 'Boy you really seem to know what he is singing about". Dylan had so nailed my feelings of alienation, betrayal and abandonment it was like a knife to my heart. Visions of Johanna is a great as anything Cohen ever wrote, even Hallelujah. and it speaks to much of Cohen's music, the longing for and place of transcendence in life. It is remarkable, every time I hear it.
@@kenkaplan3654 We could waste so much time on this, and never get anywhere because both of us are allowed to have an opinion. I feel like you're reading too much into my analysis, and you think I'm suggesting that Dylan is useless. Let me say again, I am not keen on how Dylan sounds like Ginsburg to my ear, but I think his songs are beautiful. I just prefer Cohen because he's at a whole other level for me. I compared Dylan to chocolate cake which is delicious, and Cohen to a Sunday dinner because his music is more nourishing to my soul. The best I can offer is that I will take your critique under advisement and I wish you all the best. I hope we'll both get lots of opportunities to enjoy the incredible musical talent of both men in the future. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
@@TheLivingPhilosophy it was I and I. Leonard's son got it wrong. I heard his son say the same thing, but it was I and I. Also, I believe Leonard actually told him it took him 4 years to write Hallelujah (I know that's not what Leonard's son said)
Yes it was “I and I’. LC said he loved the song and almost fell off his chairs when BD said he wrote it in about 10 minutes. LC said it took him about 2 yrs to finish Hallelujah. BD said he would never spend that long on 1 song. He wrote Like A Rolling Stone in 15 minutes and Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands in about 10.
@@MrPernell27 No, he _said_ he wrote those songs so fast, but come on, hahaha. Example: "Like a rolling stone" is six minutes long. Four long verses makes at least three verses with a fairly set rhyme scheme to follow. Each of them also has to end on the same rhyme to fit the set-up of the chorus-ending word. You also have to find the chords, and try different phrasings, listen to the flow of the words etc. No one can write a song with such high quality lyrics in that time. They may want to give that impression for other reasons, though.
Leonard Cohen is INFJ, apparently. This personality type is the rarest and something of a contradiction - logical yet emotional, creative yet analytical, easy-going yet perfectionist. James Joyce was also of this ilk. Bob Dylan is apparently ISFP, which a lot of creative people are categorised as being, Jackson Pollock, for instance. Free flowing sensory creativity. I think all of this MBTI Personality Type stuff ties in with what the gentleman was articulating in this video. I find this stuff fascinating. My favourite Cohen song is If it be your will - what an amazing line, In their rags of light. My favourite Dylan song is Idiot Wind, what an amazing image, Smoke pouring out of a boxcar door. I love their melodies as much as their lyrics. And their realm called song where poetry and music fuse to create this sublime expression. Anyway, I dig this gentleman's video.
I think you might be right James. I typically type as an INFJ and I must say that I'm certainly wired more like Cohen than Dylan. It's all agonising polishing for me. Also Idiot Wind and all of Blood on the Tracks = gold. Thanks for watching and for the insightful comment!
I am amazed that people still believe the old story that it took 15 minutes to write a song like “Just like a woman”, in itself close to 5 minutes long. It’s something someone who wants to _portray_ himself as a Divinely Inspired Genius would so predictably say. And seeing Dylan’s demeanor in interviews and other interactions (as well as reading about it in biographies) there’s no doubt whatsoever that’s what he, quite narcissistically, tried to do. In reality _of course_ he worked so much harder than he tried (and mostly seems to have succeeded) to make us believe. 15 minutes may be what it _feels_ like when you’re in flow, but that’s another story. (And no, I don’t believe that Kim Jung Il made 11 hole-in-ones on his first ever golf round either.) He’s so talented, that can’t be denied, and I love many of his songs. But compared to Cohen, he’s not even close lyrically, and he seems to have enamored so many just as much with his style, flow and often rather rapid singing, which frankly speaking, sometimes conceals some rather contrived rhymes, of which you find none in Cohen - because Cohen would rather wait/work for it for 7 years than embarrass himself by cheap rhyming to get a song out. (If _that_ is true could, of course, also be questioned; it could also just be the flip side of the same genius cultivation. But in that case a far more decent one, since it inspires people to work harder rather than give up because they’re made to believe they don’t have what it takes compared to the God-given genius of their idols.) Dolly Parton once said: “It costs a lot of money to look this cheap.” People _never_ succeed to that extent without a plan and really hard work.
I think that Cohen's 'Everybody Knows' is more like a Dylan song and Dylan's 'Hard Rain's Gunna Fall' is more like a Cohen song. I wonder if they conspired.
If I express my self authentically Then that is beauty. What good is beautiful. Simple is beautiful. Simplicity is das ultimate form of sophistication.
Leonard used to go to see my teacher Ramesh Balsekar in Mumbai for a few years. Ramesh really liked his album Ten New Songs, was was his return. I wondered if what Ramesh liked was that Leonard might have dedicated some of it to him, but given his working methods they were probably in the works for years Haha.
Hahaha that's good stuff you just never know do you! You also raise an interesting question I'm not sure about the answer to: were all his songs years in the making or was it just a few epic ones? Now that you've said it I wouldn't be surprised if those 10 songs had been much longer in the making...
@@TheLivingPhilosophy well he had an 8 year hiatus before the release of Ten New Songs. Around 3 of that he was seeing Ramesh. So maybe some are from the period hehe. I was trying to share a link with you of a dialogue between Leonard and Ramesh but then everything I wrote disappeared. I guess that's UA-cam policy about links I really like the album Old Ideas. How old we dont know Haha
@@michaelmcclure3383 Hahaha that does seem to be the question with Leonard! I must have a look for that. I've never actually seen him interviewed maybe it'll be elsewhere on the internet if not on here. Or maybe it just stopped the links? Let me see if there's something I can do about that somewhere maybe. I shall check it out though didn't realise he was so deeply involved in it but to be honest it makes perfect sense now I think of it
@@TheLivingPhilosophy Doesn't Leonard have a song about liking it slow Haha "Leonard Cohen] I’ve been sipping at the nectar. It’s very delicious to be here. On the intellectual level, your model becomes clearer and clear to me - your conceptual presentation - and so does my old Teacher’s. On the experiential level, I feel the weakening of certain proprietorial feelings about doership. [Ramesh Balsekar] That is a very good word! Proprietorial - me, mine! I see. Now, this weakening - how do you mean this weakening, when did it start? Did it start thirty years ago? Is that what you are saying? [Leonard Cohen] I couldn’t characterize this seeking as spiritual. It was a kind of urgent … [Ramesh Balsekar] You mean what started thirty years ago was not really spiritual? [Leonard Cohen] No Sir. [Ramesh Balsekar] I see. I see. [Leonard Cohen] I don’t know if it is today. The description seems to pale in the urgency of the actual search, which is for peace. [Ramesh Balsekar] Yes. Yes. [Leonard Cohen] And you know, over the years, especially anyone who hangs around a Zendo meditation hall, is going to get a lot of free samples, as you put it. If you sit for long hours every day, and are subjected to sleeplessness and protein deficiency, you’re going to start having experiences that are interesting. It was a hunger for those experiences that kept me around, because I NEEDED those experiences. [Ramesh Balsekar] YES! The HUNGER for those experiences. Yes! So? [Leonard Cohen] I forget where we were. I’m sorry. [Ramesh Balsekar] You said, experiences happened, and there was a hunger for those experiences. [Leonard Cohen] There was a hunger to maximize, to continue, a greed to … a greed for those kinds of experiences develops. Which is what happens in monasteries. [Ramesh Balsekar] I entirely agree, yes. There is a greed for those experiences. [Leonard Cohen] Very much so. And I must say that my old Teacher puts little value on those experiences. [Ramesh Balsekar] I see. In fact, did he WARN you against them? [Leonard Cohen] Warns you, and BEATS YOU, against them! [Ramesh Balsekar] With his stick? On your shoulder? [Leonard Cohen] Yes Sir. We are not encouraged to take these hallucinations seriously. [Ramesh Balsekar] But how effective are those beatings, Leonard? [Leonard Cohen] Not effective at all. I’ve seen them more effective in the case of other monks than they were in this case. So I respect the system; it’s a rigorous system based on a very usable model, but it works for some and does not work for others. [Ramesh Balsekar] Quite right. I see. And what you’ve been hearing for ten days, has it made some difference, do you think? [Leonard Cohen] Sweet! The complete transcript and more drawings of the two men can be found at A Resonance between Two Models - Leonard Cohen & Ramesh Balsekar by Jane Adams. (JaneAdamsArt: Sept 28, 2014) Jane Adams has a wordpress with a full dialogue
@@TheLivingPhilosophy this is interesting from the full dialogue on what we were saying before "Again, God’s grace. You know what I say about God’s grace and God’s will? We use the word God’s grace when something nice happens. When something not so nice happens, and we know we can do nothing about it, we put our head down and say God’s will. So now, if somebody asks you Leonard, “how do you live your life?” - you are about sixtyish? Getting to be sixty-five. I see. How do you live your life? Does living your life present a problem? What would be your answer, from personal experience? Is living your life now, with this understanding, a difficult thing? Well, if it is - and it’s been the experience of this being, that things come with difficulty rather than with ease - so I think the perspective on that programming is changing. I’m sorry, I didn’t quite get that. Things come difficult? Yes, for instance I’m a song writer by profession … You still write? Yes Sir. And I’ve always found that I write one word at a time. With sweat and difficulty. Like pulling out teeth. It’s like pulling teeth, and it takes a great effort. I’ve written some decent songs, and people ask me about song writing, you know, they say “How do you write a good song?” And I always say, “If I knew where the good songs came from, I would go there more often.” I don’t know where they come from. I know that I have to sit at my desk or in my café or wherever it is, and sweat over it. Other song writers greater than I - and I’ve had this conversation with them - will give me completely different information. They’ll say, like “I wrote it in the back of the taxi cab” - you know, a great song. So it seems to be my experience, that things are difficult in just the way this programming works. That is correct"
Since you enjoy Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan, may I suggest (highly) taking a listen to Elliott Smith. IMO the greatest songwriter of all time. He was a rlly smart, complex, shy and lovable human being. He majored in philosophy in college and actually brought it to his complex music/lyrics. Most just think he was a hapless “sad sap” because of his addictions but that’s not the case, entirely.
Hi James I have beem jumping from vídeo to vídeo and don't want to stop learning through you, to shape my Own thoughts. I think your work is so interesting because you are interesting person that is true and real in what it does. My most honest congrats! Abou the vídeo, I totally agreement with your view of the distance in process but the proximity as artistic "value"... I will share with you the experience I had with Bob Dylan. I was on a security team that worked with Bob Dylan when he came to Porto, Portugal, my hometown, for a concert. He arrived on the tour bus, got off, straight to the stage, no soundcheck, no need for a dressing room... On stage, pure magic but just as structured, not one word to the audience, his commitment was with the art, not with people... Then, cold as ice off stage, straight back to the bus and the Nobel winner went away, Don't get me wrong, I Am not judgging, I hard to find me judgging anything Or anyone and it was great art but a not so great show. I remember my team partners talking about how arrogant he was and all I could think about was the study of light. I think there is a dimension where ideas come to develop and complete themselves as that become particles when catch matter in their way. And the dimension is commun to those whose thoughts have the same tunning. As the art wave is captured by the artistic tunning of the individual, it will rmaterialize integrated with the artist personal and unique way and the work is produced... Sorry for the long text but I wish I could affort a whole week of conversation with you and please remember there is no place for vanity in me, they're always humble points of view. Kind regards.
"... I think there is a dimension where ideas develop and complete themselves as WAVES that turn in to particles... " The sentence was flat, the waves where missing😊
Thanks Marco! Interesting story with Bob and one that tracks with a lot of what I've heard of him in a certain period of his life. I guess it just became a thing of just showing up and doing his job for him at that point. Strange but I guess a lot of people just want to go see him as a relic of history and so the tickets kept selling. I went to see him in 2018 or 2019 and thought he was aces but yeah I guess it depends with him. Also he was playing with Neil Young so I guess he had to step up his game! Anyways thanks for the great comment as ever!
@@TheLivingPhilosophy thank you James so much. Your expression "...great comment..." it was already fantastic, but the cherry came on the top when you followed it with "...as ever..." For a self taught 42 year old guy, that never Had the academic choice Or any conditions at all to persue the answers for the burning questions of his Mind, your words are a divine tonic... It has been 25 years of study, from the smalest to the biggest, from the beginning to the possible ends, from most within to the greatest all, it has been a long, lonely journey, so different yet the same unfolding... With your inspiration and others I am babystepping my way to take metamodernism to another level, focusing on the general social common conditions necessary to everyone reaches its Spinoza nature and turn it in to a Economy concept with real application, with as little noise (noise being the difference in average day to day life of the general majority of people that a shift in the sociological background implies). Well, thats my crazyness... I was once called an Edgewalker by someone relevant in spiritual matters, but what I am called will always be in the perspective of the one that calls. What I do is what defines what I am and for me, in my perspective, I am just Another soul walking the path... Kind regards and thank you! Wish you the best!
I just became a Cohen fan recently. Been a Dylan fan since high school. Never game Cohen a chance because the little I heard, I thought the musical style was too old school for lack of a better term. And I still wish he was a bit more Rock and Blues. Having said that, his lyrics, phrasing, and singing are phenomenal. I like Hallelujah, but Tower Of Song, The Darkness, Democracy Is Coming To The USA, Everybody Knows, First We Take Manhattan have skyrocket up to my favorite songs of all time. Sorry for mentioning so many.
I've a similar story. I was late to the Cohen party and Everybody Knows is the album that I adore as well which is where half of those songs are from. He's an absolute gem
Perhaps you start late with cohen. When you are more mature and perhaps when you love. Cohen is an open meadow of all kinds of flowers blossoming under the same sun.
I’m late to the party too. 61 years of age and ‘met’ Leonard during the 2020 lockdown. Pure joy. I’m in raptures reading his poetry or listening to his music
Remember, this would be 10 years are so before the song would be a hit, at this point, Dylan might have been the only person to notice how good it was.
I like the idea that lower brain waves states are experienced differently in relation to time, getting more stretched out the deeper you go. Our concious state is all about decisions, which is an understanding of time in an immediate cause and effect way, then our subconscious is all based on stories, which is a linear sense of time, thoughts stretched out in time, and then our deeper parts of our brain again are all god based and stretched out in time even more so feel almost predefined or like they exist outside of us. Also adds to the trance state that Scott mentioned. Defo some truth to this idea anyway thought id share . Bob dylan and Niche both knew its where all the good stuff is. lol cool vids btw,
Damn my mind is blown. Never thought of the brain waves being connected to the different psychological functions before. I wonder what we could connect gamma when things really spike up and go wild....interesting thoughts Adam and I'm delighted you're enjoying the channel!!
@@TheLivingPhilosophy Ah what a cool response love how quick you got the idea and got at the left out bit lol. And yeah i dont think ive ever heard anything like it. It occurred to me a few months ago and seems to make so much sense really, not quite sure what to do with the idea but tell random people on youtube. lol. And yeah I think Gamma would be the flow state. Which comes by aligning your beliefs, and practices into your conscious action, i think when you align all the deeper states of your mind towards the same goal. Thats when your like beaming. A good example is like why we like music, they take a form thats bigger than them, practice like crazy so they are almost in control of the subconscious state. And then it all comes together when its performed and you can like hear this state of flow. Its all about taking control of our consciousness, there was a cool harold pinter oxford address last night where he mentions why we humanity just stated to get better around the enlightenment. And how this is very anti nature in a way for things to improve. But I think through people like Niche we are learning that deeper brain functions are in our control. We are the god (or god is an outdated concept of understanding the outside world). Also maybe why he went a bit nuts. Its like monkeys taking mushrooms backwards. People have lost a connection to deeper brain functions by denying god. I mean you can see it in the way the internet is, its all deeper brain functions. (also why therapy works by looking at your past and making a 5 year plan etc, aligning your deeper sense of time). This isn't an argument for god. Just that its a static idea like deeper brain functions. And we have to interpret the idea through narratives. Its why we have to 'feel' deeper brain states, like why fear makes us sweat. Because outside the idea of narratives etc, of our concious experience of time, and just is. God i could go on but down want to sound too out there lol ITs also why being a kid seems to last forever even tho the brain is supposedly ticking over at much slower brain wave states. And why sleep feels like time travel in a wierd way. Anyway. Yes look forward to more food for thought from your videos in the future.
Ah of course flow!! Damn yeah amazing! And yeah I think I'm on the same page with god. Not talking about something metaphysical (as Wittgenstein said that which we cannot speak of we must pass over in silence) but there's a very important psychological function that is clearly occuring with divinity since it is a universal aspect of human culture. And so why is that and what is the meaning of it. I like this idea of deeper layers of the brain with the thetas and delta brain waves. Your insight is just working its way into my mental digestion system but its a fascinating insight. I think as I dip my toe deeper into neuroscience it's going to light up a lot of dots. haha you've no need to worry about sounding far out here I love a good stretching of the limits of the known especially when it's backed up with good logic. And also I know exactly what you mean about sleep being like time travel!! I love it! Thanks again for the rich vein of insights plenty to think about
The comparisons aren't well-seen, especially in the world of the music. As far as i'm concerned, I can't say anything on Cohen because, I don't know him that much, but if you ask me about Bob Dylan, I'll likely answer that his music is worth studying at Schools and Colleges. The fact of winning the Nobel prize made his musical figure bigger despite the fact he isn't a writer. In my opinion, he did deserve to win the Nobel of Literature because, if you analyze his music, most of lyrics are just poetry, which allows you to imagine a landscape. In simple words, it is a world into another world.
The Tower of song moment made me hit subscribe... You and I know the same things music culture blending historical terms , that like mortar sticks stones together for the whole functional structure where thoughts are conceptual framework to travel down into door ways in corners of our minds endless corridor like endless highways. information waiting for is to divine... . .you and I have a similar cross interest musically & philosophically with our ability in reference weaving insights and ideas that really are just because bloody Marvel Bob Dylan identified things , Cobain identified things , Burroughs identified things that brought me here.... Wharhol would make this work into an image of a simplistic icon like a glass of water & it would explain every drop of the Ocean in one droplet between your Ireland and my island only a evaporated raindrop away
* Trying to discuss the art of Bob Dylan & Leonard Cohen on UA-cam can only be done in fragments and impressions. It would take a 1000 page book to do the subject justice. * With that caveat, I begin my discussion with the song writing process, as mentioned in the video. This is one level of their art. * I’ll take it a level further using part of Cohen’s “Anthem” which was mentioned in the video; “Forget your perfect offering There is a crack in everything That's how the light gets in” The video relates “Anthem” to the song writing process. Cohen spent 10 years writing some verses so, he must have found perfection (a “perfect offering”)? No. This misses the point Cohen is trying to make in this song which isn’t simply about a choice of words. “Anthem” describes in multiple ways the imperfect knowledge humanity has about many things, from marriage to war. Cohen applies those limitations to himself. He is not taking the stance of the all knowing judgmental prophet. His message is not of ultimate judgment. Our “offering” from the song, is our actions. All our actions are imperfect because we lack ultimate knowledge. Cohen is a limited human being. He can never make a perfect offering. But he can be aware of his limitations. That is “the light” which is our discovering more of who we are. It is seeing the horizon of our knowledge which we can experience each day. * How does that relate to Dylan? * In Dylan’s Nobel lecture he mentioned 3 influential books. One of them is (a quote); “‘All Quiet on the Western Front’ is a horror story. This is a book where you lose your childhood, your faith in a meaningful world, and your concern for individuals.” This loss of “childhood, your faith in a meaningful world” is in his first complex poetic song, “A Hard Rain’s A-Gonna Fall“. Here Dylan passes judgment on humanity. “I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children… Heard the roar of a wave that could drown the whole world… Heard the song of a poet who died in the gutter… Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters… And it’s a hard rain’s a-gonna fall“ * Dylan’s judgment of the world continues in “It’s Alright, Ma (I’m Only Bleeding)”, “Maggie’s Farm”, “Desolation Row” and so on. - In terms of talent, I agree with the video’s description, that Dylan is supreme. He can be seen as “the voice of god” as the video states. But I’d add that when Dylan makes broad judgments, he seems like a prophet from the ancient scriptures. He has no doubts, like a prophet of god. * Dylan also extends his judgements to individuals. “It's All Over Now, Baby Blue”, “Like a Rolling Stone” being some examples. * The difference with Cohen is sometimes a stark contrast. Leonard’s song, “Suzanne” (describing dancer Suzanne Verdal) mentions that she’s “half crazy” but the words are afterwards empathetic and metaphysical. The song ends; “For she's touched your perfect body with her mind” - Quite touching. - Dylan’s “Just Like a Woman” by contrast ends; “Ah, you fake just like a woman, yes, you do You make love just like a woman, yes, you do Then you ache just like a woman But you break just like a little girl” - That cutting, judgmental quality from Dylan remains. * Am I criticizing Dylan? No. I see him as supremely confident in his opinions of himself and others. Why not? - In terms of talent & cleverness, Dylan by some objective measures would be considered the greatest of the songwriter-poets. He certainly thinks so. * But who do I prefer now? In my younger years; “I was so much older then”. Meaning, when I was younger I was enamored by Dylan’s cleverness with words & the speed of his writing. - In my older age, I am quickly moving into subjectively preferring Cohen’s carefulness, his doubts in recognizing our limitations (the recognition of flaws in himself & in humanity) and continually finding insights into who we are.
What a delightful read! Thanks for sharing. I am beginning to experience a similar turning of the tide. I adore Dylan's work but find Cohen's growing deeper roots in me as I get older.
I see Anthem differently but your take is interesting. cohen was sreeped much more in Buddhism and other esoteric traditions than Dylan. Your "perfect offering" to me refers both to an inner tendency and outer behavior that "rituals" and our relationship to some form of transcendence be perfect, be precise, be according to trasdition, done right. Cohen s saying life is not like that. Itm is the jaggedness, the wounds, the uncontrollable where the light breaks through. This is similar to Kabir who was rather insisent about all of this O servant, where dost thou seek Me? Lo! I am beside thee. I am neither in temple nor in mosque: I am neither in Kaaba nor in Kailash: Neither am I in rites and ceremonies, nor in Yoga and renunciation. If thou art a true seeker, thou shalt at once see Me: thou shalt meet Me in a moment of time. Kabîr says, "O Sadhu! God is the breath of all breath."
Thank you. I'd heard the Jallelujah-JLW story before, but i like the way you bive it a Nietzschean context. There are other differences between the two artists. Leonard dark humour cf Bob's feel for the absurd. I also think Leonard and Bob's religious disposition is quite different. Both interested in metaphysics and the spiritual, and both are great readers of the Jewish Bible. But their paths diverge quite significantly around redemption and despair. Very Nietzschean topics. Actually, I'm interested in your perspective too. Is your devotion to Nietzsche derived principally from 'The Birth of Tragedy'? I've never really like the binary nature of that book, and I feel as though Nietzsche came to a similar re-appraisal. All beside thepoint, I suppose. But I think you're largely right about Bob and Leonard. I've found a younger songwriter who has been influenced by both Leonard and Bob-but she seems to use both creative methods in her work. Pls, of course, a great deal of her own imagination and style. Her name's Joustene Lorenz. Check her out: especially the two more recent albums. Thanks again.
Huh somehow missed this comment and I've only come across it now as I was searching back through the archives for a different comment. Thank you for the kind words and even more for the recommendation I'm going to throw her on right thi-sminute. As for your Nietzsche question I've always loved The Birth of Tragedy (though I agree wtih your assessment) but my home point with Nietzsche has always been Beyond Good and Evil (though I might prefer Gay Science as a book)
@@TheLivingPhilosophy Well, I haven't read Gay Science, but I know Beyond Good and Evil which parallels much 19th century literature merging into the 20th century-e.g. Moby Dick, Crime and Punishment, Absalom, Absaolm. Moby Dick, I note, was one of the key texts cited by Bob Dylan in his Nobel Prize speech. I think Nietzsche, Cohen and Dylan all struggled with the corollary of that idea. To some extent it's where art goes into retreat, even as it projects itself as consciousness. It's also why I like Joustene Lorenz' lyrics and music. She's well aware of the consequences of tragedy, but plays with its reversal-a little like the Impressionists, but without the self-confirming naivity. Take a song like 'After the End' (title track of the album). It creates a sense ofemotional catastrophe associated with the end of a relationship. But then the song hollows itself out as we realise, the singer is an extinct animal and she's singing to humans. Similarly, she mimics Cohen's 'Joan of Arc', turning it from a parody into a parodic and tragic love song. So, she's seeking space beyond the 'beyond good and evil'. Quite exhilarating. THANK YOU FOR THIS CONVERSATION. I'LL SUBSCRIBE IN SUPPORT.
That's a very good point. There's so many versions of Dylan although that being said if you listen to Cohen he's also got some very different sounds going on as well I'm Your Man is synthy and intense compared to the Songs of Leonard Cohen or Various Positions so there's definitely a lot of play there but yeah even just 60s Dylan the phases are amazing. So versatile
I’ve written for years everyday . I have virtually reams containing rivers of brilliance hidden amongst gobbles of garbage . Whats the point if any pertaining to this videos content ? Well that’s hard to state herein but suffice to say much of what I have achieved in song and verse to a completed piece of work inclusive of many “broadcast quality” recordings and others simply low fi demos and still others totally undocumented other than on paper but completed otherwise has come in both (depending) the Dylan raging river style… which is a form of ecstasy and conversely utterly grueling in the style and form of Cohen . One the first example is like diarrhea the other constipation nonetheless every now and again what comes out is just like a work of art but often it’s just a healthy fart . 🤣
They are both Jews. Cohen was influence from the synagogue prayer and the Jewish philosophy and Bob was like Ginsburg non-conformist Jews who have dubbed of everything he does
I think as long as our recorded music lasts these two will live on. While Cohen had more polish there's still a raw inspired beauty and variety to Dylan that will live on
@@TheLivingPhilosophy bob dylan is all "jingly jangly morning come following you" and terrible harmonica solos. compare to "if it be your will" by cohen. its laughable. Cohen is so much better. agree to disagree!
@@bh1935 See you might be right but the thing is it's a bit black and white it's like just because you don't rate apples as highly as bananas that all apples should be thrown out. I think both should be enjoyed as part of a healthy and balanced musical diet
Leonard Cohen had a largely academic background and began as a poet. His primary inspiration was Federico Garcia Lorca. He belonged to the Montreal School of Poets which were a group who carefully critiqued each others work and maintained very high standards of artistry. This is the context in which Cohen did his work. He also came much later to musicianship, beginning his career around the age of 33. Bob Dylan spent one year in college at the University of Minnesota, and began his career around the age of 18. His first album came out when he was 20. Dylan didn't just explode with creativity--well, he did, ok, but before he expoded with creativity he apprenticed himself to the field of folk music trying to get his hands on every possible record which he could find, sometimes stealing records from his friends in his desperation to absorb everything he could about folk music. Anyone looking at his work can see exactly how heavily influenced he was by very traditional folk music forms. It took him a while before he was able to create his own style of music and move beyond those traditional forms of folk music. What I would say is that he filled his creative mind up with material like a camel for the journey. That material kept on feeding him for years afterwards, plus the process of apprenticeship to the greats structured his mind so that he was able to immediately identify the potential in musical chords and poetic phrases. Bob Dylan's genius didn't just show up. It was the consequence of careful and meticulous work at the beginning of his career.
That may be true. He also studied various poets, But his *process* of production was as described like a torrent emerging but you are right, he had built a foundation
The way Dylan worked in his peak period can be decribed as "channeling". He is fused with a higher aspect of self and the material comes from that and pours through. However in creating the songs for release Dylan was quite the craftsman and could be very deliberate. You might read Greil Marcus' "Like a Rolling Stone: Bob Dylan at the Crossroads" which gets into this deliberate focus.
Good piece, Interesting. Did not know Cohen was so laborious. Makes songs like "it's All Right Ma" and "Desolation Row" all the more remarkable because they were not products of the conscious mind. Cohen was also deeply inspired. He just worked differently.
Thanks for sharing. I'm a fan of both Dylan and Cohen. Thumbs sky high #540 👏👏👏👏👍👍👍👍Lone Wolf :)
The artist aims to move us. They have two paths: one is to labor over the creation of a character or a story; the other, to be the character-live the story. It can be done vicariously as well. Some of us can absorb the stories of others and place ourselves in them instantly. Others need to give it deeper analysis, because they are operating from a theoretical place instead.
I am interested to know what god(s) might be represented in such an outlook.
This is an interesting insight. Would love you to map it out more. When you say labor over the creation of a character or story we're thinking here of an author or musician creating compelling characters in their stories and compelling narratives to captivate us right? While the other one is to be the character? Is this more like the myth of a character like Dylan? Like the artist themselves becoming enigmatic? And who would be a good example of the giving it a deeper analysis coming from a theoretical place?
@@TheLivingPhilosophy thanks for the reply. I liken it to types of paintings:
For some painters, every meticulous little detail in their scene must be just exactly so, and is labored over excruciatingly. Others paint more through use of their intuition, with a more rushed and aggressive sketch art type of style. But of course, to develop this ability and be any good takes great effort and practice! Someone can’t just sit down and start finger painting and tossing splashes on the canvas and produce something of high quality unless they already have the intuition and know what they’re doing.
For music and writing, it’s much the same. There has to be a message, and that normally involves a character. A conflict. People who have lots of conflicts in their lives can intuit them a little easier. Whereas someone who has led a rather easygoing life with few real struggles has to try to draw from the struggles of others, and imagine what it would be like, which is much harder. Tolkien had the war. Bierce was beset with many struggles. So were the Shelleys, Mary and Percy (some personal favorites of mine.) It’s harder to point out ones whose lives were simpler, but I’d say there are many.
@@TimBitten Ah yes that reminds me of Merzhekovsky's novel/biography of da Vinci and we see in Leonardo the perfect example of the meticulous artist and in Raphael the perfect example of pure intuition just prodigiously pumping out paintings. Of course they both went through the schools but at the end of their education they were two very different breeds of master.
Also love how you mapped it over onto writing I've got a much clearer picture of what you're saying now
That was very entertaining, I'm a long time fan of both. For me, Cohen is pure gold. Thanks for this. Subscribing to support.
Ah thank you kindly! Glad you enjoyed it and welcome to the channel!
I have been arguing with my son that Cohen was better than Dylan but I couldn't exactly put my finger on why. I acknowledge that Dylan is brilliant but to my ear I always felt that Dylan was inspired but rushed or not as deep? I was annoyed because he sounds like Alan Ginsburg in the way he sings and I felt like there was something inauthentic about taking on someone else's way of speaking.
Leonard Cohen, on the other hand, came at music from a deeper angle and was more profound. Leonard Cohen is a Sunday dinner with the whole family present and Dylan is a rich piece of chocolate cake you eat at a restaurant. One is nutritious and makes me feel full for ages after while the other is sweet, delicious but fleeting.
Thank you for this take on how the inspiration came through both. This is brilliant. I'll have to go back and listen to Dylan with this in mind.
Keep up this channel. I love your insights!
Haha!! this is brilliant!! Well if I can help anyone appreciate Dylan a little more then I feel I have succeeded. I love the uncut unpolished nature of his stuff. I think it's admirable in a completely different way than Cohen's approach. It's managing to align yourself with some inspirational flow. It's more fascinating from a psychological point of view and tends to work better in a feeling way than a mental way if that makes sense? But I gotta admit this chocolate cake/sunday dinner analogy is a both a witty and a thoughtful way of putting it. I understand your point and I'm having to digest my thoughts on it so we'll see what emerges but thank you for that
I think this is an unfair judgment. I do agree Cohen imo seemed to get to a mystical place within Dylan longed for but could not reach. Thus at times his texture seems deeper. But the longing for Dylan comes out in great depth in Visions ofJohanna and other songs.
Plus no one leveled the critique of American depravity like Dylan. To not realize the enormous depth of "Hard Rain", "It's All Right Ma", "Desolation row" and many other songs is rather ludicrous.
As much as I like Cohen's morre trenchent later political songs, he was mining territory Dylan had mined thoroughly decades before
@@kenkaplan3654 Bob Dylan wrote: I give her my heart but she wanted my soul
But don’t think twice, it’s all right.
I keep my opinion because Cohen gave me his soul.
A while ago Dylan remarked that while others wrote songs, Cohen wrote prayers. I agree wholeheartedly.
The truth is, these men appreciated the genius of each other, so in the big scheme of things that is all that really matters as both of them were capable of recognising genius in others.
My whole thought process may even be "ludicrous" as you suggest. I fully recognise that I'm not a lyricist, just a lover of beautiful music and I don't think it does any harm to the world that I don't think exactly like others do. Your ears think that Dylan is superior, while I favour Cohen. That's how life goes, doesn't it?
To quote Cohen now: "well, never mind, we are ugly, but we have the music."
Have a fabulous weekend Ken!
@@mindsetsquare I didn't say superior, I said different. I appreciate Cohen's depth, I adore him and think he is the only songweriter in Dylan's league. But to say Dylan lacked depth and was primarily derivative is to completely misunderstand the man and his music.
You don't write 'it's All Right Ma", which stunned everyone and at the time no one could even imagine or fathom in songwriting much less emulate. Their depth was different. Cohen wrote Suzanne. Dylan wrote "Love Minus Zero. No limit". Cohen wrote "That's no Way to Say Goodbye", Dylan wrote "Just Like a Woman". Cohen wrote "Everybody Knows". Dylan wrote "It's
All Right Ma" and dozens of songs eviscerating perverted norms. Cohen wrote 'Anthem", Dylan wrote "All Along the Watctower"
I think later Cohen is better than later Dylan and I like later Cohen better than early Cohen. but we must take the entire body of work. Greil Marcus said of Dylan, (paraphrase) "for a short time the world pivoted on the movement of one man".Cohen is truly great but Dylan is a colossus. As said I doubt without Dylan "The Future" ever gets made. I think Dylan was slightly more accessible but never to say he did not have great depth.
Blonde on Blonde is * all depth* emotionally. I listened for the first time to "Stuck Inside of Mobile" and came to this verse
"Now the senator came down here
Showing ev’ryone his gun
Handing out free tickets
To the wedding of his son
An’ me, I nearly got busted
An’ wouldn’t it be my luck
To get caught without a ticket
And be discovered beneath a truck
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again"
I was with a younger couple and I started crying, sobbing. The boy looked at me and said 'Boy you really seem to know what he is singing about". Dylan had so nailed my feelings of alienation, betrayal and abandonment it was like a knife to my heart.
Visions of Johanna is a great as anything Cohen ever wrote, even Hallelujah. and it speaks to much of Cohen's music, the longing for and place of transcendence in life. It is remarkable, every time I hear it.
@@kenkaplan3654 We could waste so much time on this, and never get anywhere because both of us are allowed to have an opinion. I feel like you're reading too much into my analysis, and you think I'm suggesting that Dylan is useless. Let me say again, I am not keen on how Dylan sounds like Ginsburg to my ear, but I think his songs are beautiful. I just prefer Cohen because he's at a whole other level for me. I compared Dylan to chocolate cake which is delicious, and Cohen to a Sunday dinner because his music is more nourishing to my soul.
The best I can offer is that I will take your critique under advisement and I wish you all the best. I hope we'll both get lots of opportunities to enjoy the incredible musical talent of both men in the future. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
You got the Dylan song wrong, Cohen asked him about his song "I and I" which had recently been released at the time
Really? The articles I've read all say Just Like a Woman. Where did you read about it?
Yeah it’s ‘I and I’
@@TheLivingPhilosophy it was I and I. Leonard's son got it wrong. I heard his son say the same thing, but it was I and I. Also, I believe Leonard actually told him it took him 4 years to write Hallelujah (I know that's not what Leonard's son said)
Yes it was “I and I’. LC said he loved the song and almost fell off his chairs when BD said he wrote it in about 10 minutes. LC said it took him about 2 yrs to finish Hallelujah. BD said he would never spend that long on 1 song. He wrote Like A Rolling Stone in 15 minutes and Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands in about 10.
@@MrPernell27 No, he _said_ he wrote those songs so fast, but come on, hahaha. Example:
"Like a rolling stone" is six minutes long.
Four long verses makes at least three verses with a fairly set rhyme scheme to follow.
Each of them also has to end on the same rhyme to fit the set-up of the chorus-ending word.
You also have to find the chords, and try different phrasings, listen to the flow of the words etc.
No one can write a song with such high quality lyrics in that time. They may want to give that impression for other reasons, though.
Leonard Cohen is INFJ, apparently. This personality type is the rarest and something of a contradiction - logical yet emotional, creative yet analytical, easy-going yet perfectionist. James Joyce was also of this ilk. Bob Dylan is apparently ISFP, which a lot of creative people are categorised as being, Jackson Pollock, for instance. Free flowing sensory creativity. I think all of this MBTI Personality Type stuff ties in with what the gentleman was articulating in this video. I find this stuff fascinating. My favourite Cohen song is If it be your will - what an amazing line, In their rags of light. My favourite Dylan song is Idiot Wind, what an amazing image, Smoke pouring out of a boxcar door. I love their melodies as much as their lyrics. And their realm called song where poetry and music fuse to create this sublime expression. Anyway, I dig this gentleman's video.
I think you might be right James. I typically type as an INFJ and I must say that I'm certainly wired more like Cohen than Dylan. It's all agonising polishing for me. Also Idiot Wind and all of Blood on the Tracks = gold. Thanks for watching and for the insightful comment!
I am amazed that people still believe the old story that it took 15 minutes to write a song like “Just like a woman”, in itself close to 5 minutes long. It’s something someone who wants to _portray_ himself as a Divinely Inspired Genius would so predictably say. And seeing Dylan’s demeanor in interviews and other interactions (as well as reading about it in biographies) there’s no doubt whatsoever that’s what he, quite narcissistically, tried to do.
In reality _of course_ he worked so much harder than he tried (and mostly seems to have succeeded) to make us believe. 15 minutes may be what it _feels_ like when you’re in flow, but that’s another story. (And no, I don’t believe that Kim Jung Il made 11 hole-in-ones on his first ever golf round either.)
He’s so talented, that can’t be denied, and I love many of his songs. But compared to Cohen, he’s not even close lyrically, and he seems to have enamored so many just as much with his style, flow and often rather rapid singing, which frankly speaking, sometimes conceals some rather contrived rhymes, of which you find none in Cohen - because Cohen would rather wait/work for it for 7 years than embarrass himself by cheap rhyming to get a song out. (If _that_ is true could, of course, also be questioned; it could also just be the flip side of the same genius cultivation. But in that case a far more decent one, since it inspires people to work harder rather than give up because they’re made to believe they don’t have what it takes compared to the God-given genius of their idols.)
Dolly Parton once said: “It costs a lot of money to look this cheap.” People _never_ succeed to that extent without a plan and really hard work.
I think that Cohen's 'Everybody Knows' is more like a Dylan song and Dylan's 'Hard Rain's Gunna Fall' is more like a Cohen song. I wonder if they conspired.
If I express my self authentically
Then that is beauty.
What good is beautiful.
Simple is beautiful.
Simplicity is das ultimate form of sophistication.
Leonard used to go to see my teacher Ramesh Balsekar in Mumbai for a few years. Ramesh really liked his album Ten New Songs, was was his return. I wondered if what Ramesh liked was that Leonard might have dedicated some of it to him, but given his working methods they were probably in the works for years Haha.
Hahaha that's good stuff you just never know do you! You also raise an interesting question I'm not sure about the answer to: were all his songs years in the making or was it just a few epic ones? Now that you've said it I wouldn't be surprised if those 10 songs had been much longer in the making...
@@TheLivingPhilosophy well he had an 8 year hiatus before the release of Ten New Songs. Around 3 of that he was seeing Ramesh. So maybe some are from the period hehe.
I was trying to share a link with you of a dialogue between Leonard and Ramesh but then everything I wrote disappeared. I guess that's UA-cam policy about links
I really like the album Old Ideas. How old we dont know Haha
@@michaelmcclure3383 Hahaha that does seem to be the question with Leonard! I must have a look for that. I've never actually seen him interviewed maybe it'll be elsewhere on the internet if not on here. Or maybe it just stopped the links? Let me see if there's something I can do about that somewhere maybe. I shall check it out though didn't realise he was so deeply involved in it but to be honest it makes perfect sense now I think of it
@@TheLivingPhilosophy
Doesn't Leonard have a song about liking it slow Haha
"Leonard Cohen] I’ve been sipping at the nectar. It’s very delicious to be here. On the intellectual level, your model becomes clearer and clear to me - your conceptual presentation - and so does my old Teacher’s. On the experiential level, I feel the weakening of certain proprietorial feelings about doership.
[Ramesh Balsekar] That is a very good word! Proprietorial - me, mine! I see. Now, this weakening - how do you mean this weakening, when did it start? Did it start thirty years ago? Is that what you are saying?
[Leonard Cohen] I couldn’t characterize this seeking as spiritual. It was a kind of urgent …
[Ramesh Balsekar] You mean what started thirty years ago was not really spiritual?
[Leonard Cohen] No Sir.
[Ramesh Balsekar] I see. I see.
[Leonard Cohen] I don’t know if it is today. The description seems to pale in the urgency of the actual search, which is for peace.
[Ramesh Balsekar] Yes. Yes.
[Leonard Cohen] And you know, over the years, especially anyone who hangs around a Zendo meditation hall, is going to get a lot of free samples, as you put it. If you sit for long hours every day, and are subjected to sleeplessness and protein deficiency, you’re going to start having experiences that are interesting. It was a hunger for those experiences that kept me around, because I NEEDED those experiences.
[Ramesh Balsekar] YES! The HUNGER for those experiences. Yes! So?
[Leonard Cohen] I forget where we were. I’m sorry.
[Ramesh Balsekar] You said, experiences happened, and there was a hunger for those experiences.
[Leonard Cohen] There was a hunger to maximize, to continue, a greed to … a greed for those kinds of experiences develops. Which is what happens in monasteries.
[Ramesh Balsekar] I entirely agree, yes. There is a greed for those experiences.
[Leonard Cohen] Very much so. And I must say that my old Teacher puts little value on those experiences.
[Ramesh Balsekar] I see. In fact, did he WARN you against them?
[Leonard Cohen] Warns you, and BEATS YOU, against them!
[Ramesh Balsekar] With his stick? On your shoulder?
[Leonard Cohen] Yes Sir. We are not encouraged to take these hallucinations seriously.
[Ramesh Balsekar] But how effective are those beatings, Leonard?
[Leonard Cohen] Not effective at all. I’ve seen them more effective in the case of other monks than they were in this case. So I respect the system; it’s a rigorous system based on a very usable model, but it works for some and does not work for others.
[Ramesh Balsekar] Quite right. I see. And what you’ve been hearing for ten days, has it made some difference, do you think?
[Leonard Cohen] Sweet!
The complete transcript and more drawings of the two men can be found at A Resonance between Two Models - Leonard Cohen & Ramesh Balsekar by Jane Adams. (JaneAdamsArt: Sept 28, 2014)
Jane Adams has a wordpress with a full dialogue
@@TheLivingPhilosophy this is interesting from the full dialogue on what we were saying before
"Again, God’s grace. You know what I say about God’s grace and God’s will? We use the word God’s grace when something nice happens. When something not so nice happens, and we know we can do nothing about it, we put our head down and say God’s will. So now, if somebody asks you Leonard, “how do you live your life?” - you are about sixtyish?
Getting to be sixty-five.
I see. How do you live your life? Does living your life present a problem? What would be your answer, from personal experience? Is living your life now, with this understanding, a difficult thing?
Well, if it is - and it’s been the experience of this being, that things come with difficulty rather than with ease - so I think the perspective on that programming is changing.
I’m sorry, I didn’t quite get that. Things come difficult?
Yes, for instance I’m a song writer by profession …
You still write?
Yes Sir. And I’ve always found that I write one word at a time. With sweat and difficulty.
Like pulling out teeth.
It’s like pulling teeth, and it takes a great effort. I’ve written some decent songs, and people ask me about song writing, you know, they say “How do you write a good song?” And I always say, “If I knew where the good songs came from, I would go there more often.” I don’t know where they come from. I know that I have to sit at my desk or in my café or wherever it is, and sweat over it. Other song writers greater than I - and I’ve had this conversation with them - will give me completely different information. They’ll say, like “I wrote it in the back of the taxi cab” - you know, a great song. So it seems to be my experience, that things are difficult in just the way this programming works.
That is correct"
Since you enjoy Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan, may I suggest (highly) taking a listen to Elliott Smith. IMO the greatest songwriter of all time. He was a rlly smart, complex, shy and lovable human being. He majored in philosophy in college and actually brought it to his complex music/lyrics. Most just think he was a hapless “sad sap” because of his addictions but that’s not the case, entirely.
Hi James I have beem jumping from vídeo to vídeo and don't want to stop learning through you, to shape my Own thoughts. I think your work is so interesting because you are interesting person that is true and real in what it does. My most honest congrats! Abou the vídeo, I totally agreement with your view of the distance in process but the proximity as artistic "value"... I will share with you the experience I had with Bob Dylan. I was on a security team that worked with Bob Dylan when he came to Porto, Portugal, my hometown, for a concert. He arrived on the tour bus, got off, straight to the stage, no soundcheck, no need for a dressing room... On stage, pure magic but just as structured, not one word to the audience, his commitment was with the art, not with people... Then, cold as ice off stage, straight back to the bus and the Nobel winner went away, Don't get me wrong, I Am not judgging, I hard to find me judgging anything Or anyone and it was great art but a not so great show. I remember my team partners talking about how arrogant he was and all I could think about was the study of light. I think there is a dimension where ideas come to develop and complete themselves as that become particles when catch matter in their way. And the dimension is commun to those whose thoughts have the same tunning. As the art wave is captured by the artistic tunning of the individual, it will rmaterialize integrated with the artist personal and unique way and the work is produced... Sorry for the long text but I wish I could affort a whole week of conversation with you and please remember there is no place for vanity in me, they're always humble points of view. Kind regards.
"... I think there is a dimension where ideas develop and complete themselves as WAVES that turn in to particles... " The sentence was flat, the waves where missing😊
Thanks Marco! Interesting story with Bob and one that tracks with a lot of what I've heard of him in a certain period of his life. I guess it just became a thing of just showing up and doing his job for him at that point. Strange but I guess a lot of people just want to go see him as a relic of history and so the tickets kept selling. I went to see him in 2018 or 2019 and thought he was aces but yeah I guess it depends with him. Also he was playing with Neil Young so I guess he had to step up his game! Anyways thanks for the great comment as ever!
@@TheLivingPhilosophy thank you James so much. Your expression "...great comment..." it was already fantastic, but the cherry came on the top when you followed it with "...as ever..." For a self taught 42 year old guy, that never Had the academic choice Or any conditions at all to persue the answers for the burning questions of his Mind, your words are a divine tonic... It has been 25 years of study, from the smalest to the biggest, from the beginning to the possible ends, from most within to the greatest all, it has been a long, lonely journey, so different yet the same unfolding... With your inspiration and others I am babystepping my way to take metamodernism to another level, focusing on the general social common conditions necessary to everyone reaches its Spinoza nature and turn it in to a Economy concept with real application, with as little noise (noise being the difference in average day to day life of the general majority of people that a shift in the sociological background implies). Well, thats my crazyness... I was once called an Edgewalker by someone relevant in spiritual matters, but what I am called will always be in the perspective of the one that calls. What I do is what defines what I am and for me, in my perspective, I am just Another soul walking the path... Kind regards and thank you! Wish you the best!
Really enjoyed this!
Cheers Fin!
Excellent
Thank you!
Truly wonderful. You just made another fan...and a new subscriber.
Thank you Fiore! Welcome aboard!
I just became a Cohen fan recently. Been a Dylan fan since high school. Never game Cohen a chance because the little I heard, I thought the musical style was too old school for lack of a better term. And I still wish he was a bit more Rock and Blues. Having said that, his lyrics, phrasing, and singing are phenomenal. I like Hallelujah, but Tower Of Song, The Darkness, Democracy Is Coming To The USA, Everybody Knows, First We Take Manhattan have skyrocket up to my favorite songs of all time. Sorry for mentioning so many.
I've a similar story. I was late to the Cohen party and Everybody Knows is the album that I adore as well which is where half of those songs are from. He's an absolute gem
Perhaps you start late with cohen. When you are more mature and perhaps when you love. Cohen is an open meadow of all kinds of flowers blossoming under the same sun.
@@saikatbiswas127 When I'm more mature? 😂
I’m late to the party too. 61 years of age and ‘met’ Leonard during the 2020 lockdown. Pure joy. I’m in raptures reading his poetry or listening to his music
Cohen's precision with language is remarkable. Add "ClosingTime" to the list
"Suzanne" is Cohen's most famous song.
It’s my favorite for sure. ❤
The Dylan song that Cohen asked about was actually "I and I" off the Infidels album, as I've heard the story being told
Remember, this would be 10 years are so before the song would be a hit, at this point, Dylan might have been the only person to notice how good it was.
I like the idea that lower brain waves states are experienced differently in relation to time, getting more stretched out the deeper you go. Our concious state is all about decisions, which is an understanding of time in an immediate cause and effect way, then our subconscious is all based on stories, which is a linear sense of time, thoughts stretched out in time, and then our deeper parts of our brain again are all god based and stretched out in time even more so feel almost predefined or like they exist outside of us. Also adds to the trance state that Scott mentioned. Defo some truth to this idea anyway thought id share . Bob dylan and Niche both knew its where all the good stuff is. lol cool vids btw,
Damn my mind is blown. Never thought of the brain waves being connected to the different psychological functions before. I wonder what we could connect gamma when things really spike up and go wild....interesting thoughts Adam and I'm delighted you're enjoying the channel!!
@@TheLivingPhilosophy Ah what a cool response love how quick you got the idea and got at the left out bit lol. And yeah i dont think ive ever heard anything like it. It occurred to me a few months ago and seems to make so much sense really, not quite sure what to do with the idea but tell random people on youtube. lol. And yeah I think Gamma would be the flow state. Which comes by aligning your beliefs, and practices into your conscious action, i think when you align all the deeper states of your mind towards the same goal. Thats when your like beaming. A good example is like why we like music, they take a form thats bigger than them, practice like crazy so they are almost in control of the subconscious state. And then it all comes together when its performed and you can like hear this state of flow. Its all about taking control of our consciousness, there was a cool harold pinter oxford address last night where he mentions why we humanity just stated to get better around the enlightenment. And how this is very anti nature in a way for things to improve. But I think through people like Niche we are learning that deeper brain functions are in our control. We are the god (or god is an outdated concept of understanding the outside world). Also maybe why he went a bit nuts. Its like monkeys taking mushrooms backwards. People have lost a connection to deeper brain functions by denying god. I mean you can see it in the way the internet is, its all deeper brain functions. (also why therapy works by looking at your past and making a 5 year plan etc, aligning your deeper sense of time).
This isn't an argument for god. Just that its a static idea like deeper brain functions. And we have to interpret the idea through narratives. Its why we have to 'feel' deeper brain states, like why fear makes us sweat. Because outside the idea of narratives etc, of our concious experience of time, and just is. God i could go on but down want to sound too out there lol
ITs also why being a kid seems to last forever even tho the brain is supposedly ticking over at much slower brain wave states. And why sleep feels like time travel in a wierd way.
Anyway. Yes look forward to more food for thought from your videos in the future.
Ah of course flow!! Damn yeah amazing!
And yeah I think I'm on the same page with god. Not talking about something metaphysical (as Wittgenstein said that which we cannot speak of we must pass over in silence) but there's a very important psychological function that is clearly occuring with divinity since it is a universal aspect of human culture. And so why is that and what is the meaning of it. I like this idea of deeper layers of the brain with the thetas and delta brain waves. Your insight is just working its way into my mental digestion system but its a fascinating insight. I think as I dip my toe deeper into neuroscience it's going to light up a lot of dots.
haha you've no need to worry about sounding far out here I love a good stretching of the limits of the known especially when it's backed up with good logic. And also I know exactly what you mean about sleep being like time travel!! I love it! Thanks again for the rich vein of insights plenty to think about
The comparisons aren't well-seen, especially in the world of the music. As far as i'm concerned, I can't say anything on Cohen because, I don't know him that much, but if you ask me about Bob Dylan, I'll likely answer that his music is worth studying at Schools and Colleges. The fact of winning the Nobel prize made his musical figure bigger despite the fact he isn't a writer. In my opinion, he did deserve to win the Nobel of Literature because, if you analyze his music, most of lyrics are just poetry, which allows you to imagine a landscape. In simple words, it is a world into another world.
Cohen is the only lyricist-songwriter in Dylan's league.
The Tower of song moment made me hit subscribe... You and I know the same things music culture blending historical terms , that like mortar sticks stones together for the whole functional structure where thoughts are conceptual framework to travel down into door ways in corners of our minds endless corridor like endless highways. information waiting for is to divine... . .you and I have a similar cross interest musically & philosophically with our ability in reference weaving insights and ideas that really are just because bloody Marvel Bob Dylan identified things , Cobain identified things , Burroughs identified things that brought me here.... Wharhol would make this work into an image of a simplistic icon like a glass of water & it would explain every drop of the Ocean in one droplet between your Ireland and my island only a evaporated raindrop away
* Trying to discuss the art of Bob Dylan & Leonard Cohen on UA-cam can only be done in fragments and impressions. It would take a 1000 page book to do the subject justice.
* With that caveat, I begin my discussion with the song writing process, as mentioned in the video. This is one level of their art.
* I’ll take it a level further using part of Cohen’s “Anthem” which was mentioned in the video;
“Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in”
The video relates “Anthem” to the song writing process. Cohen spent 10 years writing some verses so, he must have found perfection (a “perfect offering”)?
No. This misses the point Cohen is trying to make in this song which isn’t simply about a choice of words.
“Anthem” describes in multiple ways the imperfect knowledge humanity has about many things, from marriage to war.
Cohen applies those limitations to himself. He is not taking the stance of the all knowing judgmental prophet. His message is not of ultimate judgment.
Our “offering” from the song, is our actions. All our actions are imperfect because we lack ultimate knowledge.
Cohen is a limited human being. He can never make a perfect offering.
But he can be aware of his limitations. That is “the light” which is our discovering more of who we are. It is seeing the horizon of our knowledge which we can experience each day.
* How does that relate to Dylan?
* In Dylan’s Nobel lecture he mentioned 3 influential books. One of them is (a quote);
“‘All Quiet on the Western Front’ is a horror story. This is a book where you lose your childhood, your faith in a meaningful world, and your concern for individuals.”
This loss of “childhood, your faith in a meaningful world” is in his first complex poetic song, “A Hard Rain’s A-Gonna Fall“. Here Dylan passes judgment on humanity.
“I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children…
Heard the roar of a wave that could drown the whole world…
Heard the song of a poet who died in the gutter…
Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters…
And it’s a hard rain’s a-gonna fall“
* Dylan’s judgment of the world continues in “It’s Alright, Ma (I’m Only Bleeding)”, “Maggie’s Farm”, “Desolation Row” and so on.
- In terms of talent, I agree with the video’s description, that Dylan is supreme. He can be seen as “the voice of god” as the video states. But I’d add that when Dylan makes broad judgments, he seems like a prophet from the ancient scriptures.
He has no doubts, like a prophet of god.
* Dylan also extends his judgements to individuals. “It's All Over Now, Baby Blue”, “Like a Rolling Stone” being some examples.
* The difference with Cohen is sometimes a stark contrast.
Leonard’s song, “Suzanne” (describing dancer Suzanne Verdal) mentions that she’s “half crazy” but the words are afterwards empathetic and metaphysical.
The song ends;
“For she's touched your perfect body with her mind”
- Quite touching.
- Dylan’s “Just Like a Woman” by contrast ends;
“Ah, you fake just like a woman, yes, you do
You make love just like a woman, yes, you do
Then you ache just like a woman
But you break just like a little girl”
- That cutting, judgmental quality from Dylan remains.
* Am I criticizing Dylan? No. I see him as supremely confident in his opinions of himself and others. Why not?
- In terms of talent & cleverness, Dylan by some objective measures would be considered the greatest of the songwriter-poets. He certainly thinks so.
* But who do I prefer now? In my younger years; “I was so much older then”.
Meaning, when I was younger I was enamored by Dylan’s cleverness with words & the speed of his writing.
- In my older age, I am quickly moving into subjectively preferring Cohen’s carefulness, his doubts in recognizing our limitations (the recognition of flaws in himself & in humanity) and continually finding insights into who we are.
What a delightful read! Thanks for sharing. I am beginning to experience a similar turning of the tide. I adore Dylan's work but find Cohen's growing deeper roots in me as I get older.
@@TheLivingPhilosophy ; thank you for the reply. I subscribed to your channel. I enjoy philosophy.
I see Anthem differently but your take is interesting. cohen was sreeped much more in Buddhism and other esoteric traditions than Dylan. Your "perfect offering" to me refers both to an inner tendency and outer behavior that "rituals" and our relationship to some form of transcendence be perfect, be precise, be according to trasdition, done right. Cohen s saying life is not like that. Itm is the jaggedness, the wounds, the uncontrollable where the light breaks through. This is similar to Kabir who was rather insisent about all of this
O servant, where dost thou seek Me?
Lo! I am beside thee.
I am neither in temple nor in mosque:
I am neither in Kaaba nor in Kailash:
Neither am I in rites and ceremonies, nor in Yoga and renunciation.
If thou art a true seeker, thou shalt at once see Me:
thou shalt meet Me in a moment of time.
Kabîr says, "O Sadhu! God is the breath of all breath."
Picasso is probably the most gangasrotagati I can think of.
Thank you. I'd heard the Jallelujah-JLW story before, but i like the way you bive it a Nietzschean context. There are other differences between the two artists. Leonard dark humour cf Bob's feel for the absurd. I also think Leonard and Bob's religious disposition is quite different. Both interested in metaphysics and the spiritual, and both are great readers of the Jewish Bible. But their paths diverge quite significantly around redemption and despair. Very Nietzschean topics. Actually, I'm interested in your perspective too. Is your devotion to Nietzsche derived principally from 'The Birth of Tragedy'? I've never really like the binary nature of that book, and I feel as though Nietzsche came to a similar re-appraisal. All beside thepoint, I suppose. But I think you're largely right about Bob and Leonard. I've found a younger songwriter who has been influenced by both Leonard and Bob-but she seems to use both creative methods in her work. Pls, of course, a great deal of her own imagination and style. Her name's Joustene Lorenz. Check her out: especially the two more recent albums. Thanks again.
Huh somehow missed this comment and I've only come across it now as I was searching back through the archives for a different comment. Thank you for the kind words and even more for the recommendation I'm going to throw her on right thi-sminute. As for your Nietzsche question I've always loved The Birth of Tragedy (though I agree wtih your assessment) but my home point with Nietzsche has always been Beyond Good and Evil (though I might prefer Gay Science as a book)
@@TheLivingPhilosophy Well, I haven't read Gay Science, but I know Beyond Good and Evil which parallels much 19th century literature merging into the 20th century-e.g. Moby Dick, Crime and Punishment, Absalom, Absaolm. Moby Dick, I note, was one of the key texts cited by Bob Dylan in his Nobel Prize speech. I think Nietzsche, Cohen and Dylan all struggled with the corollary of that idea. To some extent it's where art goes into retreat, even as it projects itself as consciousness. It's also why I like Joustene Lorenz' lyrics and music. She's well aware of the consequences of tragedy, but plays with its reversal-a little like the Impressionists, but without the self-confirming naivity. Take a song like 'After the End' (title track of the album). It creates a sense ofemotional catastrophe associated with the end of a relationship. But then the song hollows itself out as we realise, the singer is an extinct animal and she's singing to humans. Similarly, she mimics Cohen's 'Joan of Arc', turning it from a parody into a parodic and tragic love song. So, she's seeking space beyond the 'beyond good and evil'. Quite exhilarating. THANK YOU FOR THIS CONVERSATION. I'LL SUBSCRIBE IN SUPPORT.
👌😉😎
I m more a Dylan fan he has so many more styles writing and music it changed from decade to decade
That's a very good point. There's so many versions of Dylan although that being said if you listen to Cohen he's also got some very different sounds going on as well I'm Your Man is synthy and intense compared to the Songs of Leonard Cohen or Various Positions so there's definitely a lot of play there but yeah even just 60s Dylan the phases are amazing. So versatile
Cohen infj, Dylan infp
cohen is
I am more a Dylan fan
I’ve written for years everyday . I have virtually reams containing rivers of brilliance hidden amongst gobbles of garbage . Whats the point if any pertaining to this videos content ? Well that’s hard to state herein but suffice to say much of what I have achieved in song and verse to a completed piece of work inclusive of many “broadcast quality” recordings and others simply low fi demos and still others totally undocumented other than on paper but completed otherwise has come in both (depending) the Dylan raging river style… which is a form of ecstasy and conversely utterly grueling in the style and form of Cohen . One the first example is like diarrhea the other constipation nonetheless every now and again what comes out is just like a work of art but often it’s just a healthy fart . 🤣
They are both Jews. Cohen was influence from the synagogue prayer and the Jewish philosophy and Bob was like Ginsburg non-conformist Jews who have dubbed of everything he does
Cohen is much better than Dylan. He will outlive dylan as music
I think as long as our recorded music lasts these two will live on. While Cohen had more polish there's still a raw inspired beauty and variety to Dylan that will live on
@@TheLivingPhilosophy bob dylan is all "jingly jangly morning come following you" and terrible harmonica solos. compare to "if it be your will" by cohen. its laughable. Cohen is so much better. agree to disagree!
@@bh1935 See you might be right but the thing is it's a bit black and white it's like just because you don't rate apples as highly as bananas that all apples should be thrown out. I think both should be enjoyed as part of a healthy and balanced musical diet
Comparison is das thief of joy.
@@bh1935 You don't know what you are talking about.
Dylan did a lot of rewriting. And a lot of drugs.
Wtf is this guy talking about?
Excellent
Thanks Lilly!