Great stuff. I imagine we're similar in vintage. I'm 53 now and started playing in '82. To this day I still run a 30+ year 2E campaign. It's either all D&D or none but the first is. Ultimately, it makes no difference. If your group is having fun, that's sufficient. That being said, the only thing along these lines that irks me about the current generation of players is the hyper focus on goal orientation. They tend to lose sight that it's the experience that matters, not 'beating' the DM or minmaxing your character...
@@thetabletopengineerplays Fair comment I imagine. In my personal experience though, I haven't noticed a difference. If I were to wager a very generalized guess, I'd say that the current generation, digital natives who grew up immersed in video games, where we were not, cannot but see the game in such terms. For us, or, at least me and my players, the game was predominantly one of imagination; actors on a stage creating a story. Very little of that seems to play in the minds of the current folk...
@steved1135 Well, not to counter your perfectly well reasoned statement. But, there definitely were gamemasters back in the late 80s / early 90s that played as if it were them against the players. It actually takes a good balance of the GM and Players to make the game fun and to last. Some people just don't have the temperament for it. I have come to the conclusion that modern day players confuse the overall purpose of calling it a Role-playing game, and try to create themselves but with magic/super powers. This same thing has been showing up in video games where you can customize your character. So many think, for some reason, those options are there so you can 'play as yourself.' Me, I usually try to play as an attractive female, because if I am going to be staring at a behind for hours while I play the game, it may as well be a nice one!
When people use the name D&D to describe any rpg, that's a phenomenon called gentrification. Its when one brand becomes so popular that the brand name becomes synonymous with the type of product. Example, Band-aid is the name of a brand of a product called adhesive straps.
No, "gentrification " is the process of an urban area becoming more and more affluent over time, due to a change in demographics, investments, etc. What you are talking about is "genericization", or Generic Trademark".
One of the things I love the most about D&D is that you can really just make it your own. Everything in the game is entirely up to the players (DM included as a player here); whether you want to have humans only, low magic, high fantasy, fantastic monsters, undead, dinosaurs only... hell, you can play D&D with dinosaurs AND laser guns if you want to. Same with the rules... people complain about death saves being too hand-holdy... well if you don't like them, don't use them. People take the rules they want and discard the ones they don't want... and have been doing it for every edition that ever existed. In one of my earliest times playing D&D, we used a Caller. Literally, the only time I had ever seen a Caller being used. I wonder how many of these so-called "purist" D&D players use a Caller in their group... probably not many if any. At the end of the day, you and your friends decide how you're going to play D&D in your own space... No one else has the authority or ability to stop you... And this is why the whole culture war over D&D editions and anti-woke rhetoric and such baffles me. Maybe some people don't like having gay characters; well then don't have any. You do you. Me, I'll have gay NPCs, female generals of armies, brown-skinned elves, and blue-skinned gnomes riding elephants in caravans... If I and my players are into it, then that's what we'll do. Who is gonna stop us? D&D is an IMAGINATION GAME; use your group's collective imagination and have fun with it. If you find yourself in a group that is doing something you don't like, then find another group. Back in the 80s, it wasn't so easy to do this, but nowadays, there are hundreds of groups to choose from - find a group that suits your style of play. Sorry that this comment is very ranty, but I get a bit irritated by people trying to control how people play a game of make-believe. Like, can't these people just mind their own business? Sorry, ranting again... Thank you for posting, Jim.
I started playing D&D with the brown box in 75. I wouldn't even use the term "real D&D". That said I enjoyed all the versions up until 4 (with the exception of the basic which I never really looked at) which just didn't feel like D&D to me and also made it clear to me that I didn't care for the business practices of Hasbro/Wotc. I'm not even sure how one can reasonably define the term "real" with respect to D&D. Most of us who started with the brown box books played in ways that weren't intended until word got back to TSR. I would argue that people expressing their opinion can influence in a number of ways such as providing exposure to other games or encouraging people to just stick with earlier versions. Having fun though is the whole purpose of recreational gaming (having done some professional work the focus isn't there although it can be fun as well).
I do love Pathfinder. But I started with AD & D. That's what we called it. My group has observed the difficulty of making Pathfinder challenging, but I did manage to TPK my players yesterday. I wasn't trying to, but they had been warned it had a strong chance of happening.
I agree Jim, it's all D&D, no matter what fantasy RPG you play. I play all types of RPG's and enjoy them all for different reasons, whether it be the people I play with or just the system itself. I still run D&D 5E for my home game and my players always ask about playing something that was included in a new supplement prior to just saying hey I have X, Y & Z and my character does this and that, I only allow what I feel that will not deter from the game as well as the players and my enjoyment of the game. Like you I don't care what anyone says or thinks about what I choose to play, everyone should just enjoy and play the games they want.
"My" D&D was 3.5. My earliest games were never about the dungeon delve, but the heroic story of the group of adventurers who defeated the bbeg. That's part of why I've enjoyed your 2d6 series so much- I've come to enjoy the dungeon crawl, struggling for loot and xp to get to the next level before I get squished. So as D&D (the brand) moves on, I'll keep enjoying the RPGs that give me what I'm looking for. I'm joining a Call of Cthulu game soon. And I've been getting the itch to find a scifi RPG to play with as well. Thanks for the great video.
I played one session of 'red box' D&D before switching to AD&D, in about '83. Played 1st, 2nd, 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, 4 and 5. I've played a LOT of 1e Pathfinder. I am about to introduce some new players to D&D tonight. I will be using the 'Basic Fantasy Role-playing Game' rules. Because they are 1) free and 2) a very simple, stripped down ruleset that i think will work well for new players. They may like it, and stick with it, or they might move on to playing some version of SRD 3.X. I've stopped being concerned about version and moved on to just wanting to have fun.
Wow, what a reasonable take. I've been playing since the mid 90s, and I've always run into folks who were angry about stuff that didn't matter to me. The point of games is fun. Have your own fun without trying to trash other people's fun, I've never understood how that's difficult for some people.
We play on the rules we agree upon. Anyone else has the right to talk, or complain but we reserve the right to play OUR game OUR way. Really is fairly simple
You're absolutely right! We don't need the toxicity in our hobby. The culture wars don't belong in the game. To support your point: I played with those original 1974 booklets. They're barely playable. You had to infer a lot. I also played AD&D for years. No one played AD&D rules as written. There were way too many rules. Everyone was figuring out their own style. By the time second edition came out, everyone was homebrewing. The whole "rules as written" wasn't a thing until 3rd edition. By then, there were multiple versions of the game... There is no "real" D&D. Everyone plays the game differently. That's actually the beauty of the game.
Been DMing since 78. Ended up going to Castles & Crusades for long term campaining. If I were to run a short campaign, I'd probably used Shadowdark or D&C Cyclopedia (BECMI). Its not a generational thing. First, it was boomer JT that wrote that and all the boomer and xers at WOTC have developed a low view of the majority of their fans. Gen-z is overwhelmingly anti-woke in survey after survey. So the new books are targeted at Millennials, not a new generation of players as they claim. D&D has always been diverse. Read the preface to the 1st edition AD&D DMG written in 1979. Ripping on the deceased man who wrote that manifesto for the game is just cultish behavior.
Well, I started out with the Fantasy Supplement of Chainmail, and never got past 3.5, The 3 book set with the 4 supplements are my favorite, After 3.5 i just didn't see the use in buying a reprint of what i had with a few adds that just bog things down. I say play what you enjoy and let others do the same.
My buddies and I have been playing Pathfinder since the beta, and we've always called it 'D&D' because thats exactly what it is to us. It's a hobby, not a product.
For me D&D is also synonym with Dungeon Delve, and those can be run in any system, since the most important aspects of that style of game are system agnostic. Cheers!
I started out playing AD&D 2nd Edition until 3.5 Edition. And played all the PC SSI Gold Box titles, Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, and Neverwinter Nights series. I even modded for the Neverwinter games. And played Pillars of Eternity, and the Pathfinder games. Not tried Baldurs Gate 3 yet. For me I like an RPG that has plenty of options, without it becoming overwhelming. It has been a long time since I have sat down at a group and played pen and paper. Now I just play skirmish games, mainly science fiction or post apocalypse settings. Pick a warband theme based on pop culture, movie, tv show or book. With the odd fantasy title such as Deth Wizards.
I think maybe I’ve lived the same life as you almost. However, I have played through BG3 and it is pretty good. Everyone hypes it quite a bit and it is good in many ways but I miss some of the quality of life mods that I had added in BG2. It is purely turn based like Pool of Radiance era, which is sort of nostalgic for me, also the Zhentarim make an appearance and are represented. They are very different than in Pool, but it’s an interesting thought about how that cult may have evolved since that game. BG3 is definitely worth checking out.
With the video game community, toxicity depends on the game. I can personally attest that the community in Final Fantasy XIV is actually very welcoming and supportive.
Good points. I guess the crux and the reason for this schism is that the DnD brand name has a huge shadow. If it moves things in a negative direction it tends to drag other games and more importantly the reason behind this issue is how the things that made older editions fun such as races, evil characters being evil, dungeon delving, etc are getting a lot of push back so the push is to first reinvent WOTC DnD but history shows that like a wound left unattended, once that's done it will keep going. You can see it in the videogame and movie spheres. And everything in that sphere is being remade and shaped according to that agenda. And we can see that this has putoff a lot of people so the next thing they do is to remove older versions of their products. That is the reason for this polarization. Heck I mean I used to get together with my pala and play munchkin which is in its essence a card based super diluted DnD (we played DnD as well) and at some point things changed and they got upset about stuff there or on other games. And that's the rub, people taking the fun away from the hobbies and not leaving the table which while sad is natural, but pushing you away for enjoying the same thing you always did. And that is how I see WOTC, as kings of the mountain they position themselves so that others can't enjoy the hobbie as they once did after some time of pushing their new version. I mean just look at the forums, they're unrecognizable. Sure change is expected but when you want soda and all they have is syrup something happened. Anyway, once again good take. Just wanted to bring the other side of the argument in what I hope is a civil tone and with a hint of nuance. In the end times change and we either adapt to them or get a new character sheet and roll our dice, in which case crossing fingers for a 20, or 12 or 8 or 6 or 4 .... Depending on the die used :P
Great take on the current and ongoing stupidity of man. It reminds me of my favorite James T Kirk quote from Star Trek, "You know something Spock, everyone's human..." Same, same. Everyone is playing D&D, not the actual game maybe, but the idea of D&D. Just have fun and let others enjoy themselves as well. :)
Always called Advanced Dungeons and dragons for AD&D, always called Call of Cthulhu... Call of Cthulhu. Always called Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay just Warhammer. Or as a general term, Roleplay. (The native word for play in my language is the same as the word for game so "roleplaying game" would be composed of only two words, making it easier to use. ) To avoid confusion use correct names. The current version of D&D can be referred to as D&D, D&D 5E, Dungeons and Dragons, Dungeons and Dragons Fifth Edition, sometimes only 5E when the subject matter already implies you are refering to D&D. Furthermore, as D&D 5E is the current edition sold by the license owner, and most people playing D&D today do use that version, that would be "Real" D&D. House rules, homebrew and 3rd party supplements have also always been part of all its edition so "Real" D&D should cover an extremely broad variety of games. But not Pathfinder, or Warhammer or Call of Cthulhu or GURPS or other Role Playing Games. Instead D&D is A role playing game, among many others.
My path is similar to yours in this. Right now, I am loving Shadowdark, EZD6 and Dragonbane. Crown and Skull is also very cool. For me, D&D 5e was initially the easiest "mass" approach to getting people to play. My time with it ended with the same frustrations you mentioned and the "optimized build" arms race. It started feeling adversarial and that has never been my GM-ing style. The games I am playing now pass my "does this feel like D&D to me" check based on my beginner mind joy in BECMI and AD&D 2nd. If I feel that same wonder and can run a long session feeling recharged rather than drained, it's the game for me. I am also all about boosting and talking up what we love versus wasting energy on anger over play.
Thank you for approaching this logically. So much culture war nonsense is coming into the field lately. Everyone hating on safety tools like it hurts them.
You made some good points; buy what you want. However, when people started politicizing the game and calling the ORIGINAL CREATORS racist and ANYONE who plays their version of the game racist, you are just going to have push back and argument. Many of the old schoolers were not looking for a fight, they are just finishing it.
I stopped buying D&D at 3rd edition. I didn't stop playing, just stopped buying new editions. I have played numerous other systems as well. And being that I am a older player, I am a bit stuck in what I consider D&D and don't completely like what they have done with the newest editions.
I played D&D in the 70's/80's, we were the outcasts and nerds everyone loved to hate. Now all these egotistical self-important "activist" are in control of our 'toys, whether it be D&D or Star Wars, and guess what? They still hate us, and still feel self-aggrandized persecuting us.....nothing has changed cool kids getting an ego boost by looking down on nerds, only this time it's ethnocentric. The cool kids who mocked us then are making bank off the games and stories we built, still resenting that it was us-the nerds, the outcasts-who created the foundations of modern media they now exploit.
Anyone wants to "real" check any pastime I know I can pretty much disregard what they have to say on the subject. Don't yuck someone else's yum. You don't like it? Don't play it, buy it, or bother with it. There are many problems in the world, an introduction in an expensive book that is reprinting a lot of materials that are available for free is not worth getting bent out of shape about.
I've been playing since the 80s. I lived through people telling me I was very bad and going to hell because I like to play pretend and do dice math just to be told I'm very bad and racist for liking old school orcs and drow. You are right, though cooler heads must prevail, and we must learn to be nice to each other. There is enough gaming space for all of us.
The underlying theme of this discourse is not about a game, it’s about the state of the culture we live in. This friction is permeating all of western society. I pray we can find a way to overcome this.
The game has changed, current editions being very different. Anyway the Tondro forward is atrocious & is completely baloney, he offers no actual proof just opinions. All of the scanned items were made available to the public because of the Arneson vs Gygax case from long ago. I've been gaming since 77.
Most of us just want to play anything & enjoy it without overt politics included by activists, unfortunately current Wotc is infested with activists, easily avoided, sure. But I do not care for those activists insulting the old staff of TSR & Grognard players.
Yes, the game was fine without those inclusions. I'm a very liberal guy. I'm gay and I keep up with politics more or less just for the purpose of survival, but that's exactly why I don't like to see it in my entertainment. Making games more inclusive is great, if you're subtle and respectful about it and if you actually care about diversity. WOTC's track record on diversity makes it abundantly clear that they're just pandering.
The idea that D&D 2024 is not real D&D is an argument based on intellectual abstraction, it can't be literalized by extension to make further arguments for or against it. I understand what they're getting at though, sooner or later you're so far removed from what seems legitimate, the creator, their ideas, respect for the work, experience with the work, that people go, "this is no longer legitimate." The people who wrote it are neither qualified by experience or love for the game. That's a judgment call, but it isn't an objectively incorrect one.
Old editions are not "invalid" like digital media. All new/old versions are avoidable. I do have to say anyone running AdnD is a maniac. Just reread the old books and, holy crap! The amount of pedantic detail they tried to cover is insanity. There is a version for everyone's flavor of autism out there.
I think the woke mind virus is the worst for D and D. In truth play what flavour you like, even the woke latest version. Vote with your money and play what you want. At the end of the day you enjoy the game the way you like. Note if you don't buy the new stuff it will stop them producing the woke stuff. You are entitled to your opinion, some people love the old stuff. I have yet to meet any serious role playing gamers that like the new stuff. I will play the older stuff which is better IMHO
Thank you for approaching this logically. So much culture war nonsense is coming into the field lately. Everyone hating on safety tools like it hurts them.
Great stuff. I imagine we're similar in vintage. I'm 53 now and started playing in '82. To this day I still run a 30+ year 2E campaign. It's either all D&D or none but the first is. Ultimately, it makes no difference. If your group is having fun, that's sufficient. That being said, the only thing along these lines that irks me about the current generation of players is the hyper focus on goal orientation. They tend to lose sight that it's the experience that matters, not 'beating' the DM or minmaxing your character...
It is a very different style of play these days, but maybe age changes things? :)
@@thetabletopengineerplays Fair comment I imagine. In my personal experience though, I haven't noticed a difference. If I were to wager a very generalized guess, I'd say that the current generation, digital natives who grew up immersed in video games, where we were not, cannot but see the game in such terms. For us, or, at least me and my players, the game was predominantly one of imagination; actors on a stage creating a story. Very little of that seems to play in the minds of the current folk...
@steved1135 Well, not to counter your perfectly well reasoned statement. But, there definitely were gamemasters back in the late 80s / early 90s that played as if it were them against the players. It actually takes a good balance of the GM and Players to make the game fun and to last. Some people just don't have the temperament for it.
I have come to the conclusion that modern day players confuse the overall purpose of calling it a Role-playing game, and try to create themselves but with magic/super powers. This same thing has been showing up in video games where you can customize your character. So many think, for some reason, those options are there so you can 'play as yourself.' Me, I usually try to play as an attractive female, because if I am going to be staring at a behind for hours while I play the game, it may as well be a nice one!
@@slaapliedje Yep. Agreed on all points.
When people use the name D&D to describe any rpg, that's a phenomenon called gentrification. Its when one brand becomes so popular that the brand name becomes synonymous with the type of product. Example, Band-aid is the name of a brand of a product called adhesive straps.
No, "gentrification " is the process of an urban area becoming more and more affluent over time, due to a change in demographics, investments, etc. What you are talking about is "genericization", or Generic Trademark".
One of the things I love the most about D&D is that you can really just make it your own. Everything in the game is entirely up to the players (DM included as a player here); whether you want to have humans only, low magic, high fantasy, fantastic monsters, undead, dinosaurs only... hell, you can play D&D with dinosaurs AND laser guns if you want to. Same with the rules... people complain about death saves being too hand-holdy... well if you don't like them, don't use them. People take the rules they want and discard the ones they don't want... and have been doing it for every edition that ever existed. In one of my earliest times playing D&D, we used a Caller. Literally, the only time I had ever seen a Caller being used. I wonder how many of these so-called "purist" D&D players use a Caller in their group... probably not many if any.
At the end of the day, you and your friends decide how you're going to play D&D in your own space... No one else has the authority or ability to stop you... And this is why the whole culture war over D&D editions and anti-woke rhetoric and such baffles me. Maybe some people don't like having gay characters; well then don't have any. You do you. Me, I'll have gay NPCs, female generals of armies, brown-skinned elves, and blue-skinned gnomes riding elephants in caravans... If I and my players are into it, then that's what we'll do. Who is gonna stop us? D&D is an IMAGINATION GAME; use your group's collective imagination and have fun with it. If you find yourself in a group that is doing something you don't like, then find another group. Back in the 80s, it wasn't so easy to do this, but nowadays, there are hundreds of groups to choose from - find a group that suits your style of play.
Sorry that this comment is very ranty, but I get a bit irritated by people trying to control how people play a game of make-believe. Like, can't these people just mind their own business? Sorry, ranting again...
Thank you for posting, Jim.
Excellent video! But we still haven’t settled how many Dragons can dance on the head of a pin!
I started playing D&D with the brown box in 75. I wouldn't even use the term "real D&D". That said I enjoyed all the versions up until 4 (with the exception of the basic which I never really looked at) which just didn't feel like D&D to me and also made it clear to me that I didn't care for the business practices of Hasbro/Wotc. I'm not even sure how one can reasonably define the term "real" with respect to D&D. Most of us who started with the brown box books played in ways that weren't intended until word got back to TSR. I would argue that people expressing their opinion can influence in a number of ways such as providing exposure to other games or encouraging people to just stick with earlier versions. Having fun though is the whole purpose of recreational gaming (having done some professional work the focus isn't there although it can be fun as well).
I do love Pathfinder. But I started with AD & D. That's what we called it. My group has observed the difficulty of making Pathfinder challenging, but I did manage to TPK my players yesterday. I wasn't trying to, but they had been warned it had a strong chance of happening.
SWADE is jsut better, actually has tension, no hp nonsense
Thanks 👍 good to hear the perspective
I agree Jim, it's all D&D, no matter what fantasy RPG you play. I play all types of RPG's and enjoy them all for different reasons, whether it be the people I play with or just the system itself. I still run D&D 5E for my home game and my players always ask about playing something that was included in a new supplement prior to just saying hey I have X, Y & Z and my character does this and that, I only allow what I feel that will not deter from the game as well as the players and my enjoyment of the game. Like you I don't care what anyone says or thinks about what I choose to play, everyone should just enjoy and play the games they want.
"My" D&D was 3.5. My earliest games were never about the dungeon delve, but the heroic story of the group of adventurers who defeated the bbeg. That's part of why I've enjoyed your 2d6 series so much- I've come to enjoy the dungeon crawl, struggling for loot and xp to get to the next level before I get squished.
So as D&D (the brand) moves on, I'll keep enjoying the RPGs that give me what I'm looking for. I'm joining a Call of Cthulu game soon. And I've been getting the itch to find a scifi RPG to play with as well.
Thanks for the great video.
Good on you, continue doing what gives you joy
OD&D had Chainmail for it's combat system, so if you aren't using chainmail, you aren't playing REAL D&D. Rookie.
I played one session of 'red box' D&D before switching to AD&D, in about '83. Played 1st, 2nd, 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, 4 and 5. I've played a LOT of 1e Pathfinder. I am about to introduce some new players to D&D tonight. I will be using the 'Basic Fantasy Role-playing Game' rules. Because they are 1) free and 2) a very simple, stripped down ruleset that i think will work well for new players. They may like it, and stick with it, or they might move on to playing some version of SRD 3.X. I've stopped being concerned about version and moved on to just wanting to have fun.
Wow, what a reasonable take. I've been playing since the mid 90s, and I've always run into folks who were angry about stuff that didn't matter to me. The point of games is fun. Have your own fun without trying to trash other people's fun, I've never understood how that's difficult for some people.
We play on the rules we agree upon. Anyone else has the right to talk, or complain but we reserve the right to play OUR game OUR way. Really is fairly simple
You're absolutely right!
We don't need the toxicity in our hobby. The culture wars don't belong in the game.
To support your point:
I played with those original 1974 booklets. They're barely playable. You had to infer a lot. I also played AD&D for years. No one played AD&D rules as written. There were way too many rules. Everyone was figuring out their own style. By the time second edition came out, everyone was homebrewing.
The whole "rules as written" wasn't a thing until 3rd edition. By then, there were multiple versions of the game...
There is no "real" D&D. Everyone plays the game differently.
That's actually the beauty of the game.
Thanks for the comment... glad to hear your thoughts and see that you agree about 1974 rules :)
Been DMing since 78. Ended up going to Castles & Crusades for long term campaining. If I were to run a short campaign, I'd probably used Shadowdark or D&C Cyclopedia (BECMI). Its not a generational thing. First, it was boomer JT that wrote that and all the boomer and xers at WOTC have developed a low view of the majority of their fans. Gen-z is overwhelmingly anti-woke in survey after survey. So the new books are targeted at Millennials, not a new generation of players as they claim. D&D has always been diverse. Read the preface to the 1st edition AD&D DMG written in 1979. Ripping on the deceased man who wrote that manifesto for the game is just cultish behavior.
Well, I started out with the Fantasy Supplement of Chainmail, and never got past 3.5, The 3 book set with the 4 supplements are my favorite, After 3.5 i just didn't see the use in buying a reprint of what i had with a few adds that just bog things down.
I say play what you enjoy and let others do the same.
I also collect games and rpg games and woukd like to ask ... What books do you have so I cab read up too on gaming.
My buddies and I have been playing Pathfinder since the beta, and we've always called it 'D&D' because thats exactly what it is to us. It's a hobby, not a product.
Dungeons & Dragons is the Kleenex of the TTRPG scene. You don’t ask for Facial Tissue. You ask for some Kleenex.
Just play what you want and have fun with your friends and family.
band-aid, jello, vaseline, kleenex, d&d...
'Real' D&D is anything written by EGG so OG, AD&D or 2E all qualify
EGG= Ernst Gary Gygax for those that don’t know
For me D&D is also synonym with Dungeon Delve, and those can be run in any system, since the most important aspects of that style of game are system agnostic.
Cheers!
I started out playing AD&D 2nd Edition until 3.5 Edition. And played all the PC SSI Gold Box titles, Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, and Neverwinter Nights series. I even modded for the Neverwinter games. And played Pillars of Eternity, and the Pathfinder games. Not tried Baldurs Gate 3 yet. For me I like an RPG that has plenty of options, without it becoming overwhelming. It has been a long time since I have sat down at a group and played pen and paper.
Now I just play skirmish games, mainly science fiction or post apocalypse settings. Pick a warband theme based on pop culture, movie, tv show or book. With the odd fantasy title such as Deth Wizards.
I think maybe I’ve lived the same life as you almost. However, I have played through BG3 and it is pretty good. Everyone hypes it quite a bit and it is good in many ways but I miss some of the quality of life mods that I had added in BG2. It is purely turn based like Pool of Radiance era, which is sort of nostalgic for me, also the Zhentarim make an appearance and are represented. They are very different than in Pool, but it’s an interesting thought about how that cult may have evolved since that game. BG3 is definitely worth checking out.
With the video game community, toxicity depends on the game. I can personally attest that the community in Final Fantasy XIV is actually very welcoming and supportive.
Good points. I guess the crux and the reason for this schism is that the DnD brand name has a huge shadow. If it moves things in a negative direction it tends to drag other games and more importantly the reason behind this issue is how the things that made older editions fun such as races, evil characters being evil, dungeon delving, etc are getting a lot of push back so the push is to first reinvent WOTC DnD but history shows that like a wound left unattended, once that's done it will keep going.
You can see it in the videogame and movie spheres. And everything in that sphere is being remade and shaped according to that agenda. And we can see that this has putoff a lot of people so the next thing they do is to remove older versions of their products.
That is the reason for this polarization. Heck I mean I used to get together with my pala and play munchkin which is in its essence a card based super diluted DnD (we played DnD as well) and at some point things changed and they got upset about stuff there or on other games. And that's the rub, people taking the fun away from the hobbies and not leaving the table which while sad is natural, but pushing you away for enjoying the same thing you always did.
And that is how I see WOTC, as kings of the mountain they position themselves so that others can't enjoy the hobbie as they once did after some time of pushing their new version. I mean just look at the forums, they're unrecognizable. Sure change is expected but when you want soda and all they have is syrup something happened.
Anyway, once again good take. Just wanted to bring the other side of the argument in what I hope is a civil tone and with a hint of nuance.
In the end times change and we either adapt to them or get a new character sheet and roll our dice, in which case crossing fingers for a 20, or 12 or 8 or 6 or 4 .... Depending on the die used :P
Great take on the current and ongoing stupidity of man. It reminds me of my favorite James T Kirk quote from Star Trek, "You know something Spock, everyone's human..." Same, same. Everyone is playing D&D, not the actual game maybe, but the idea of D&D. Just have fun and let others enjoy themselves as well. :)
Always called Advanced Dungeons and dragons for AD&D, always called Call of Cthulhu... Call of Cthulhu. Always called Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay just Warhammer. Or as a general term, Roleplay. (The native word for play in my language is the same as the word for game so "roleplaying game" would be composed of only two words, making it easier to use. ) To avoid confusion use correct names. The current version of D&D can be referred to as D&D, D&D 5E, Dungeons and Dragons, Dungeons and Dragons Fifth Edition, sometimes only 5E when the subject matter already implies you are refering to D&D. Furthermore, as D&D 5E is the current edition sold by the license owner, and most people playing D&D today do use that version, that would be "Real" D&D. House rules, homebrew and 3rd party supplements have also always been part of all its edition so "Real" D&D should cover an extremely broad variety of games. But not Pathfinder, or Warhammer or Call of Cthulhu or GURPS or other Role Playing Games. Instead D&D is A role playing game, among many others.
My path is similar to yours in this. Right now, I am loving Shadowdark, EZD6 and Dragonbane. Crown and Skull is also very cool. For me, D&D 5e was initially the easiest "mass" approach to getting people to play. My time with it ended with the same frustrations you mentioned and the "optimized build" arms race. It started feeling adversarial and that has never been my GM-ing style. The games I am playing now pass my "does this feel like D&D to me" check based on my beginner mind joy in BECMI and AD&D 2nd. If I feel that same wonder and can run a long session feeling recharged rather than drained, it's the game for me. I am also all about boosting and talking up what we love versus wasting energy on anger over play.
I like Castles and Crusades, and before that i ran 25 year long campain of Rolemaster. Hasbro will never get my money, ever.
The real version of d&d is the one Gary . Od&d and 1e .
Okay I guess someone was upset at me reminiscing what happened to me.
Take care then.
Well said.
Thank you for approaching this logically. So much culture war nonsense is coming into the field lately. Everyone hating on safety tools like it hurts them.
This is the way
You made some good points; buy what you want. However, when people started politicizing the game and calling the ORIGINAL CREATORS racist and ANYONE who plays their version of the game racist, you are just going to have push back and argument. Many of the old schoolers were not looking for a fight, they are just finishing it.
I really want to go back to playing D&D like I did back then without all the BS goig on today.
I stopped buying D&D at 3rd edition. I didn't stop playing, just stopped buying new editions. I have played numerous other systems as well. And being that I am a older player, I am a bit stuck in what I consider D&D and don't completely like what they have done with the newest editions.
Listen. I play old school essentials and look...
I play cleric but i also make his race dwarf. Thats just how it is.
Thank you for a sensitive take on a matter.
I played D&D in the 70's/80's, we were the outcasts and nerds everyone loved to hate. Now all these egotistical self-important "activist" are in control of our 'toys, whether it be D&D or Star Wars, and guess what? They still hate us, and still feel self-aggrandized persecuting us.....nothing has changed cool kids getting an ego boost by looking down on nerds, only this time it's ethnocentric. The cool kids who mocked us then are making bank off the games and stories we built, still resenting that it was us-the nerds, the outcasts-who created the foundations of modern media they now exploit.
Anyone wants to "real" check any pastime I know I can pretty much disregard what they have to say on the subject.
Don't yuck someone else's yum. You don't like it? Don't play it, buy it, or bother with it.
There are many problems in the world, an introduction in an expensive book that is reprinting a lot of materials that are available for free is not worth getting bent out of shape about.
Bob the World Builder did a nice rundown of what from the making of book is available elsewhere.
Well said
Really missing the gameplay videos. They are excellent to listen to
I'm working on getting more gameplay videos up.
Any updates on new video play throughs or Patreon?
I've been playing since the 80s. I lived through people telling me I was very bad and going to hell because I like to play pretend and do dice math just to be told I'm very bad and racist for liking old school orcs and drow. You are right, though cooler heads must prevail, and we must learn to be nice to each other. There is enough gaming space for all of us.
The underlying theme of this discourse is not about a game, it’s about the state of the culture we live in. This friction is permeating all of western society. I pray we can find a way to overcome this.
Mouse Utopia, the emanation point for all of this is heavy metropolitan regions.
@@NotYourEcho you are correct. Too many mouse utopia parallels.
I’m in a shadow dark game and I run lotfp… so yeah definitely not playing DnD lol
The game has changed, current editions being very different. Anyway the Tondro forward is atrocious & is completely baloney, he offers no actual proof just opinions. All of the scanned items were made available to the public because of the Arneson vs Gygax case from long ago. I've been gaming since 77.
Most of us just want to play anything & enjoy it without overt politics included by activists, unfortunately current Wotc is infested with activists, easily avoided, sure. But I do not care for those activists insulting the old staff of TSR & Grognard players.
It's not even avoidable. If anyone was uninformed enough to buy the new edition, it's right in your face.
Yes, the game was fine without those inclusions. I'm a very liberal guy. I'm gay and I keep up with politics more or less just for the purpose of survival, but that's exactly why I don't like to see it in my entertainment.
Making games more inclusive is great, if you're subtle and respectful about it and if you actually care about diversity. WOTC's track record on diversity makes it abundantly clear that they're just pandering.
@@zephyr_green9492If they wanted Inclusivity, they'd be giving some away!
The idea that D&D 2024 is not real D&D is an argument based on intellectual abstraction, it can't be literalized by extension to make further arguments for or against it. I understand what they're getting at though, sooner or later you're so far removed from what seems legitimate, the creator, their ideas, respect for the work, experience with the work, that people go, "this is no longer legitimate." The people who wrote it are neither qualified by experience or love for the game. That's a judgment call, but it isn't an objectively incorrect one.
Old editions are not "invalid" like digital media. All new/old versions are avoidable. I do have to say anyone running AdnD is a maniac. Just reread the old books and, holy crap! The amount of pedantic detail they tried to cover is insanity. There is a version for everyone's flavor of autism out there.
You should check out Jeffro Johnson. He has a lot to say on the subject.
I think the woke mind virus is the worst for D and D. In truth play what flavour you like, even the woke latest version. Vote with your money and play what you want. At the end of the day you enjoy the game the way you like. Note if you don't buy the new stuff it will stop them producing the woke stuff. You are entitled to your opinion, some people love the old stuff. I have yet to meet any serious role playing gamers that like the new stuff. I will play the older stuff which is better IMHO
The book is pure garbage and racist toward gary gygax.
5e rules blow chunks
Real D&D has Gygax name on the cover. 0e and 1e.
Thank you for approaching this logically. So much culture war nonsense is coming into the field lately. Everyone hating on safety tools like it hurts them.