It's a complicated Act, the Theft Act of 1968. We anglers use it to protect our fisheries from 'poachers'. Be interesting to hear your take on it, Alan. Teresa May issued a Home Office document (116/11) on it some years ago. Still many 'poachers' don't believe that merely fishing on someone's private water is actually stealing fishing rights.
@@Richard-r1x7d Not necessarily; they could be returning the fish to the water, but still stealing the fishing rights that everyone else has paid for. Liken it to someone taking a bus or train journey and not paying for it.
Very interesting and informative and I trust the accuracy! I have been going to that spot, on and off, for over 50 years and it is wonderful to see it on your video today. Thank you.
Someone on a cruise ship stole a Picasso. The ship was in dock in Bermuda at the time, so it was left to the Bermudian legal system to prosecute. They weren't really up for putting a foreigner in prison, so the thife got off with a smack on the back of the hand. So if you want to steal art, do it in Bermuda.
30 years ago-ish, I overheard my dad talking to a neighbour who was a police sergeant. My dad was complaining about the racket road-diggers were causing outside the house late at night. The neighbour said just take the keys out off the ignition, tell the driver you don’t intend to keep them and that you will hand them back tomorrow morning. My dad didn’t test this out!
What about cases where you might have allowed someone to borrow something in good faith, subsequently fallen out with that person, demanded it be returned and then the borrower intentionally keeps it in order to spite you? Also, a variation on that - what if the borrower destroys it or abandons it somewhere where they know it will likely be taken, damaged or lost (e.g. leaving it out on a busy street expecting it to be picked up by a stranger). Great video as always, thank you!
That becomes "treating as if you were the owner". Although there can be issues about the mens rea at the time of the appropriation. That's why garages have to put signs up about how you can only fill up if you intend to pay.
@@artmedialawThis is exactly what I was thinking about , filling your car up with fuel and driving off without paying. How ownership of the fuel was determined.
This case was dramatised in the 2020 film "The Duke" staring Jim Broadbent as Kempton Bunton and Helen Mirren as his wife Dorothy. It's a comedy so I'm not sure how accurate the court scenes are. Basically a modern Ealing Comedy (possibly marginally interesting, mildly informative and mildly humorous).
The 1967 film The Jokers with Michael Crawford Oliver Reed had the two of them stealing the Crown Jewels. This heist was planed on the basis they could not be convicted of theft.
I often thought the perfect crime would be the "theft" of the Koh-i-noor diamond from the Crown Jewels in the Tower of London. It was looted by Indians from the Mughals and then looted by the British (a few intermediate steps omitted for brevity.) So no theft because it wasn't theirs in the first place. However, it is on public display. So, I suggest a letter of authority to "remove" the item, signed by the Taliban!
Good evening to you. Delightful and informative yet again 😊. Lovely lovely scenery. Thank you 😊. Just FYI, I did download the Law Society consultation document on Contempt. I managed to read 51 pages of the 500 and had to give up. Ah well 😅
In terms of the 'permanently deprive' bit, do you remember student rag weeks? I remember one in the news that staged a kidnap for ransom (for charity) outside a supermarket in West London (Ealing?). Fake blood might have been involved (or ketchup). I vaguely remember that charges were brought. I don't think Rag Week is a thing now.
Stealing art was always one of those weird things as stealing something that is usually unique and instantly recognizable so unless it was stolen to order so to speak no idea how they would get rid of it, though I did hear that the Mona lisa would likely be not as iconic if it was not for the theft of it
Interesting, so would the section 11 cover the recent theft/removal/holding of the Banksy satellite dish. That was sort of in public, placed on someone's shop so actually on private property. Not a gallety, not public, possibly not stolen?
The only silly question is the one not asked. You cant really 'appropriate' a fixture. You could nick the relevant deeds. But now it all goes through the land registry stuff like that is treated as a type of fraud or obtaining by decepetion. As it wouldnt be the property owner losing out, it would be the prospective purchaser.
@@vatsmith8759 Legal status The British Museum was established by an Act of Parliament in 1753 and is currently governed by the British Museum Act 1963 (Opens in new window). The British Museum is an exempt charity under Schedule 3 to the Charities Act 2011 (Opens in new window). Its principal regulator is the Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport. The British Museum is a non-departmental public body (NDPB), operating at arm's length from government, but accountable to parliament. It's sponsored by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport with whom it has a Management agreement. Seems like a government organisation to me
rob did u know, that in saint brelades bay in jersey the channel island there is a church at one end and a old law that stated if a person carried out a robbery on the island that if they passed rhrough the church and the tide was at the boundary rear gate ,that they could be free to the sea .appears king james carried this out on his defear ...correct ..thumbs up would be good as its only what i was told and researched
Some overlap; but you do have a very different system up there. I'll have to collar one of my Faculty of Advocates friends and see if we could do a comparative jurisprudence thing.
Scots law for theft can either be permanent or temporary deprivation. As the common law offence of theft is ‘taking or appropriating the property of another without the true owner’s consent and with the intent to deprive the owner of that property’
@@ianmason. Scotland retains a lot of its own common law as well its own statute law still like on criminal law, property, trusts, succession, bankruptcy (sequestration) & law on treasure etc just name a few. It’s cool we have lot of legal diversity here in the UK.
Over the next few days, the weather isn't conducive to hiking in blistering sunshine and heat, while recording and speaking. Take it easy chum. Find some woodland, sit down, and stay hydrated!
Why the restriction to things on public display? Doesn't that mean I can take a painting from your house, will it back to you, and not be done for theft?
Enjoyable and informative as always Al. Lucky you didn’t have a rear facing camera as well because you got a few weird looks as you walked and talked. 😂
Theoretically yes, if the actual owner of the car has denied you permission. But this most often crops up when uninsured kids drive their parents car. If the parent says they gave permission then they're an accessory to the driving offences; but if they say no the kid gets done for TWOC.
I was about to ask that … plus when Banksy makes a work without permission presumably he is technically committing an act of vandalism/defacement … could he argue he is improving the urban landscape as a defence to this?? Please take care on those rocky paths … I know the RNLI base isn’t that far but they might be busy this time of year. 😀👍
@@CTCTraining1 In the specific case of the satellite dish, I would assume he put the dish there himself, rather than painting the piece on an existing dish.
Isn’t there then a conflict in law? Theft in a shop (for example) is theft when you take something and appropriate it, even without leaving the premises. That wouldn’t be permanently depriving though
Couldn't an argument be made that (eg the car thief who later abandons the car) *at the moment if the theft* did not have the (proven) intent to return it, and therefore that is theft. (same fpr the picture)
It just means I hold a current practicing certificate so I can do all the regulated barristery stuff. We used to also have "non practicing barristers". That's people who have been called to the Bar but don't have practicing certs for whatever reason. They're now called "Unregistered Barristers". Which to me sounds a bit daft as they are all on the BSB's register.
You have made Walking and Talking into a fine Art!!! Florida, USA
He must be fit! 🇬🇧
He walks at quite a speed too. Good stamina.
When you first brought this up I thought of “The Stone of Destiny” being returned to Scotland by Students.
Thank you Al,
We are all grateful for you just being you.
It's a complicated Act, the Theft Act of 1968. We anglers use it to protect our fisheries from 'poachers'. Be interesting to hear your take on it, Alan. Teresa May issued a Home Office document (116/11) on it some years ago. Still many 'poachers' don't believe that merely fishing on someone's private water is actually stealing fishing rights.
Ooh, that sounds like a good topic.
They are stealing fish?
@@Richard-r1x7d Not necessarily; they could be returning the fish to the water, but still stealing the fishing rights that everyone else has paid for.
Liken it to someone taking a bus or train journey and not paying for it.
@@WolfmanWoody yes I agree I was thinking of real poachers as well but I do know what you mean. 😀👍
Very interesting and informative and I trust the accuracy! I have been going to that spot, on and off, for over 50 years and it is wonderful to see it on your video today. Thank you.
Love Cornwall, but my 70 year old legs hate the hills😂
Someone on a cruise ship stole a Picasso. The ship was in dock in Bermuda at the time, so it was left to the Bermudian legal system to prosecute. They weren't really up for putting a foreigner in prison, so the thife got off with a smack on the back of the hand. So if you want to steal art, do it in Bermuda.
Well, I do like a beach...
That was very interesting and the scenery was magnificent. Thank you for the talks and the view. I'm so envious. 🙏🏼🙏🏼😉😉
Be careful. Being so close to the cliff edge is a parlous situation to find oneself in!
30 years ago-ish, I overheard my dad talking to a neighbour who was a police sergeant. My dad was complaining about the racket road-diggers were causing outside the house late at night. The neighbour said just take the keys out off the ignition, tell the driver you don’t intend to keep them and that you will hand them back tomorrow morning. My dad didn’t test this out!
What about cases where you might have allowed someone to borrow something in good faith, subsequently fallen out with that person, demanded it be returned and then the borrower intentionally keeps it in order to spite you? Also, a variation on that - what if the borrower destroys it or abandons it somewhere where they know it will likely be taken, damaged or lost (e.g. leaving it out on a busy street expecting it to be picked up by a stranger). Great video as always, thank you!
That becomes "treating as if you were the owner". Although there can be issues about the mens rea at the time of the appropriation. That's why garages have to put signs up about how you can only fill up if you intend to pay.
@@artmedialawThis is exactly what I was thinking about , filling your car up with fuel and driving off without paying. How ownership of the fuel was determined.
@@artmedialaw Thanks!
The history of why the law is the law is fascinating. Chers Al.
This case was dramatised in the 2020 film "The Duke" staring Jim Broadbent as Kempton Bunton and Helen Mirren as his wife Dorothy. It's a comedy so I'm not sure how accurate the court scenes are. Basically a modern Ealing Comedy (possibly marginally interesting, mildly informative and mildly humorous).
The 1967 film The Jokers with Michael Crawford Oliver Reed had the two of them stealing the Crown Jewels. This heist was planed on the basis they could not be convicted of theft.
I often thought the perfect crime would be the "theft" of the Koh-i-noor diamond from the Crown Jewels in the Tower of London. It was looted by Indians from the Mughals and then looted by the British (a few intermediate steps omitted for brevity.) So no theft because it wasn't theirs in the first place.
However, it is on public display. So, I suggest a letter of authority to "remove" the item, signed by the Taliban!
I've thought before that would be a good 'nemo dat' example.
Conversion.
Also is lawful parking in Cornwall even possible for non-residents?
Good evening to you. Delightful and informative yet again 😊. Lovely lovely scenery. Thank you 😊.
Just FYI, I did download the Law Society consultation document on Contempt. I managed to read 51 pages of the 500 and had to give up. Ah well 😅
You made it further than me! I just ended up reading the questions.
Hi Al! Thanks! Really interesting!
I am from Yorkshire and have never managed to set fire to myself even when drinking.
I will however keep trying.
"Cracking the flags". Nice one.
In terms of the 'permanently deprive' bit, do you remember student rag weeks? I remember one in the news that staged a kidnap for ransom (for charity) outside a supermarket in West London (Ealing?). Fake blood might have been involved (or ketchup). I vaguely remember that charges were brought. I don't think Rag Week is a thing now.
We were in Cornwall in June, the first time we had been, St Ives is lovely though we were surprised they allow cars down the narrow streets
"Such a Yorkshire way to go - setting fire to yourself while drinking."
Glorious ✨thank you
There was a film starring Jim Broadbent called “The Duke” was quite good worth a watch
Touching the dogs… equals dysphemism
Very interesting and fantastic scenery
Thanks Al👏👏
If you like Barbara Hepworth, you should do a trip to Wakefield and visit the Hepworth Gallery there.
Next time I'm back in the old country i want to check that out, and the Moore stuff.
Stealing art was always one of those weird things as stealing something that is usually unique and instantly recognizable so unless it was stolen to order so to speak no idea how they would get rid of it, though I did hear that the Mona lisa would likely be not as iconic if it was not for the theft of it
The car parking in St Ives is terrible 😂 vaguely useful 👍
Nice one 😂 very true
So basically we have been patching everything up rather than going back and changing things just adding laws to cover missing things
Dont forget the sunscreen or you'll catch an Irish Tan.
A ticket for Taylor Swift!?😡
WTF!?😱
Is he ignorant of recent events ?
Or just lacking in basic common decency.
This is a bit of an overreaction I think.
Wow - a bit dramatic
Interesting, so would the section 11 cover the recent theft/removal/holding of the Banksy satellite dish.
That was sort of in public, placed on someone's shop so actually on private property.
Not a gallety, not public, possibly not stolen?
I was involved in a Banksy case. Can't go into details; but it was about whether his sculptures had been 'abandoned'.
That's more than vaguely interesting. A case like that must feel like a bit of a treat.
This might be a silly question, does theft apply to immovable property, say somebody selling a home thats not theirs at all.
The only silly question is the one not asked.
You cant really 'appropriate' a fixture. You could nick the relevant deeds. But now it all goes through the land registry stuff like that is treated as a type of fraud or obtaining by decepetion. As it wouldnt be the property owner losing out, it would be the prospective purchaser.
@@artmedialaw thanks Alan
Could the British government be retrospectively sued under section 11 for the Elgin marbles?
Aren't they owned by the British Museum, not the British government?
@@vatsmith8759 presumably the British museum is owned by the British government?
@@Eatcrow I believe it's an independent institution, albeit regulated by Act of Parliament.
@@vatsmith8759 Legal status
The British Museum was established by an Act of Parliament in 1753 and is currently governed by the British Museum Act 1963 (Opens in new window).
The British Museum is an exempt charity under Schedule 3 to the Charities Act 2011 (Opens in new window). Its principal regulator is the Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport.
The British Museum is a non-departmental public body (NDPB), operating at arm's length from government, but accountable to parliament. It's sponsored by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport with whom it has a Management agreement.
Seems like a government organisation to me
rob did u know, that in saint brelades bay in jersey the channel island there is a church at one end and a old law that stated if a person carried out a robbery on the island that if they passed rhrough the church and the tide was at the boundary rear gate ,that they could be free to the sea .appears king james carried this out on his defear ...correct ..thumbs up would be good as its only what i was told and researched
There's something similar with the Halifax Gibbet. Which I intend to do a vid on next time I'm up in the old country.
As a Scot I always wonder if the content you post is applicable to my country.
Probably most but not all?
You fancy borrowing a painting?
Some overlap; but you do have a very different system up there. I'll have to collar one of my Faculty of Advocates friends and see if we could do a comparative jurisprudence thing.
@@artmedialawThat would be really interesting.
Love the podcast….really great presentation
Scots law for theft can either be permanent or temporary deprivation. As the common law offence of theft is ‘taking or appropriating the property of another without the true owner’s consent and with the intent to deprive the owner of that property’
@@ianmason. Scotland retains a lot of its own common law as well its own statute law still like on criminal law, property, trusts, succession, bankruptcy (sequestration) & law on treasure etc just name a few. It’s cool we have lot of legal diversity here in the UK.
Over the next few days, the weather isn't conducive to hiking in blistering sunshine and heat, while recording and speaking.
Take it easy chum. Find some woodland, sit down, and stay hydrated!
Or at least wear a hat and sunscreen!
I had my rainhat with me; and that raincoat!
@@artmedialaw A hat doesn't work unless you put it on!
Why the restriction to things on public display? Doesn't that mean I can take a painting from your house, will it back to you, and not be done for theft?
What if you "borrow without permission" an artwork from a private collection that is occasionally opened to the public? Is that theft?
Yes. It specifically mentions that scenario.
Fun fact Al, which you may or may not find vaguely interesting, the 1st film I ever saw at a cinema was.......Dr. No.
Bedknobs and Broomsticks for me. Still love that football match.
Enjoyable and informative as always Al. Lucky you didn’t have a rear facing camera as well because you got a few weird looks as you walked and talked. 😂
Can you really be realistically be convicted of the offence of TWOCing if you are a named driver and have free access to the car keys ?
Theoretically yes, if the actual owner of the car has denied you permission. But this most often crops up when uninsured kids drive their parents car. If the parent says they gave permission then they're an accessory to the driving offences; but if they say no the kid gets done for TWOC.
So would the people that made off with Banksy's "Howling Wolf" be charged with theft of a satellite dish, or a s11 offence? Or possible both?
I was about to ask that … plus when Banksy makes a work without permission presumably he is technically committing an act of vandalism/defacement … could he argue he is improving the urban landscape as a defence to this??
Please take care on those rocky paths … I know the RNLI base isn’t that far but they might be busy this time of year. 😀👍
@@CTCTraining1 In the specific case of the satellite dish, I would assume he put the dish there himself, rather than painting the piece on an existing dish.
Isn’t there then a conflict in law? Theft in a shop (for example) is theft when you take something and appropriate it, even without leaving the premises. That wouldn’t be permanently depriving though
It's the *intention* to permanently deprive though. So it doesn't matter if you don't actually get the chance to keep it.
St Ives, where the Scalybacks live 🤣
Does this apply to removing microphones
Couldn't an argument be made that (eg the car thief who later abandons the car) *at the moment if the theft* did not have the (proven) intent to return it, and therefore that is theft. (same fpr the picture)
You are a “practising barrister” does this mean you’re taking your degree/experience right now?
It just means I hold a current practicing certificate so I can do all the regulated barristery stuff. We used to also have "non practicing barristers". That's people who have been called to the Bar but don't have practicing certs for whatever reason. They're now called "Unregistered Barristers". Which to me sounds a bit daft as they are all on the BSB's register.