do you know how "return" works under the hood? (are you SURE?)

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  • Опубліковано 2 чер 2024
  • Programming is amazing. Computers allow us to do things that otherwise would be impossible. But sometimes, the code that we write feels like MAGIC. How does all of this stuff work?
    Let's talk about how return works.
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  • Наука та технологія

КОМЕНТАРІ • 575

  • @micheljean4502
    @micheljean4502 Рік тому +429

    first

  • @LolSalat
    @LolSalat Рік тому +641

    Note that this does not apply to all architectures but is specific to x86 (and maybe some others).
    For example, on Arm, calls ("branch and link" instruction bl/blr) put the return address into a register (x30).
    Thus functions must push the return value on the stack themselves before calling another function (functions that do not call other functions do not need to push it as the register containing the return value is never overwritten).
    The return on Arm is just a normal branch instruction, but encoded in a different way such that the CPU is aware that it is a return, not just a normal jump to a register (this enables microarchitectural optimizations like a return stack buffer to speed up execution).
    I really liked the video though :)
    It would be nice if you can talk about out-of-order CPUs at some point since understanding (at least having a rough idea) how modern CPUs work prevents some optimization pitfalls one may fall into when just thinking about a "traditional" Van Neumann Computer.
    And it is the gateway drug to the world of microarchitectural optimizations, side channels, and transient execution attacks :D

    • @huntabadday2663
      @huntabadday2663 Рік тому +9

      I mean.. there is the 6502 and z80, how about some 6800 too?

    • @matheusjahnke8643
      @matheusjahnke8643 Рік тому +10

      In MIPS... there's a jump and link(jal), which also saves the current pc+4 to a register 31(or $ra)... and it's responsibility of the subprogram to take care of it(pushing to the stack if it needs to call another function and popping it back).
      By convention, registers 4-7(or $v0 to $v3, inclusive) are used for arguments, registers 8-15(or $t0-$t7) are used for temporaries and may be modified by inner functions calls, while registers 16-23($s0-$s7) are to be preserved at the return(if you really need to use them, you should push their values... and pop them back when you are done)
      Finally registers 2 and 3(or $v0 and $v1) are the convention for the return.

    • @sevenbark
      @sevenbark Рік тому +10

      I took a course in IBM 360 (370?) assembly in 1982 and my second favorite instruction was BAL - branch and link. My favorite was ZAP - zero and add packed (packed decimal), because, well, ZAP.

    • @ederbarrero5585
      @ederbarrero5585 Рік тому +5

      @@matheusjahnke8643 That convention is the o32 ABI, there's also the n32/64 ABI which defines a slightly different usage for the registers:
      Arguments are now from $4-$11 ($a0-$a7)
      Temporaries are from $12-$15 ($t4-$t7)
      The callee saved registers are the same, $16-$23 ($s0-$s7), plus the others ($gp, $sp, $fp)
      And the return registers are also the same $2 and $3 ($v0 and $v1)

    • @hasanalattar9561
      @hasanalattar9561 Рік тому +1

      The Arm calling convention expects the callee to preserve registers r4 to r12. Complier people know this so they would do this extra work (pushing and poping the registers in the callee if it requires extra registers). R0 is usually used as return value. Actually the first few registers as passing parameters

  • @chbrules
    @chbrules Рік тому +5

    Turns out I ACTUALLY did know how they work.

  • @diegocastillo6470
    @diegocastillo6470 Рік тому +249

    Gotta admit that Assembly was very challenging for me, I think the most challenging task in my life, because it feels so alien. However I'm very slowly starting to make sense of it. This is a testiment to perseverance. No matter how difficult you think something is, continue. Take your time, try multiple times, look for different sources, whatever, but don't quit, ever. You'll get there, and after some time you'll look behind yourself and will realise how much you've learned. Thank you for this awesome video and helping come a little bit closer to really understand assembly.

    • @ngwemo
      @ngwemo Рік тому +4

      The Journey is Hard Than it seems.
      Hardness builds a man .

    • @williamdrum9899
      @williamdrum9899 Рік тому +2

      Assembly is very similar to basic in terms of program flow

    • @asdfasdfasdf1218
      @asdfasdfasdf1218 Рік тому +13

      Assembly is very easy if you start thinking about it in terms of physical circuits and the mosfet transistors and all their electric fields and depletion regions. Basically remember that it's all physics in the end, and assembly occupies some intermediate step.

    • @fackyoutube8452
      @fackyoutube8452 Рік тому +13

      It’s a lot easier to comprehend when you learn with computer architecture and organization. It’s why a lot of colleges combine the two classes together nowadays it’s usually called “Computer organization and Assembly” or something along those lines.

    • @aquib-J
      @aquib-J Рік тому +2

      @@fackyoutube8452 very true, I remember going through the whole organization of basic 8086 arch and the registers and their uses etc and then it made much more sense what each instruction is doing and where its storing stuff and how its storing and updating etc

  • @mytechnotalent
    @mytechnotalent Рік тому +135

    Great one. It is easy to forget this when not thinking about it directly and remembering this helps greatly in reverse engineering efforts.

  • @yuriiklopovsky
    @yuriiklopovsky Рік тому +38

    A few things to add.
    Floating point values on x86 are returned via the first scalar of xmm0 register.
    In general the way data is transferred between caller and callee is defined by what's called "Calling Conventions". There are a bunch, and they are determined by the the hardware architecture and the operating system, among other things. Fascinating stuff really.

    • @savagesarethebest7251
      @savagesarethebest7251 Рік тому +3

      Calling conventions is something that you have to have in mind when you are calling a function from a different programming language. It is quite fascinating to delve into.
      Another term worth looking into is ABI or Application Binary Interface

    • @rich1051414
      @rich1051414 4 місяці тому

      If the language is higher level, there's likely a calling convention layered on top of the architecture's convention, especially if it's a multiplatform higher level language.

  • @Alex-qf1pm
    @Alex-qf1pm Рік тому +37

    Do a video about stack unwinding on ARM next. I had a FreeRTOS fw that was running on ARM, and would dump the contents of the stack into the UART. We used this to reproduce the call stack. It was an interesting task and I learned a lot. Could honestly be a direct follow-up to this video.

  • @AA-vf4vz
    @AA-vf4vz Рік тому +14

    Sick video, wish you made it before my compilation exam lol
    Thanks sharing all this quality content !

  • @Guilhermeabcd
    @Guilhermeabcd Рік тому +1

    love your content man! As an aspiring malware analyst, your content is always enlightening and fun to watch! Long live to low level languages!

  • @Avighna
    @Avighna Рік тому +34

    I actually knew this! Proud of myself.

    • @Yilmaz4
      @Yilmaz4 3 місяці тому +1

      same, from ben eater's videos iirc

  • @stacklysm
    @stacklysm Рік тому +8

    The calling convention (stdcall, fastcall, cdecl) also controls how arguments are passed to functions and who's responsible for cleaning up the stack after returning

  • @vladventura1928
    @vladventura1928 Рік тому

    Loved the video :) Watched it to make sure I remembered what I learned from Assembly and Comp Arch courses

  • @dougpark1025
    @dougpark1025 Рік тому +6

    Basic understanding of assembly is important when using any language that compiles directly to assembly. A lot of programmers, even good ones, don't have a clue as to how some of this stuff works. My basic recommendation is to learn to read some assembly by taking a peek at the generated output of a simple program. Look up each instruction one at a time and work out what is happening. It is amazing to me how few programmers don't know some of this stuff.

    • @HenryLoenwind
      @HenryLoenwind Рік тому

      The same is true for any language that compiles into some intermediate form, like JVM bytecode, BTW.

    • @nightfox6738
      @nightfox6738 Рік тому

      I learned a lot of assembly by doing exactly this but then going in, cleaning it up, adding comments, and gutting half of it because gcc generates some really inefficient assembly. Seriously, I've seen gcc do this:
      mov %eax %ebx
      mov %ebx %eax
      multiple times. Still haven't figured out what possible purpose that could have.

    • @williamdrum9899
      @williamdrum9899 Рік тому +2

      @@nightfox6738 This is why I never trusted compilers. I've seen them do amazing things but also really dumb things. But that's a new low lol

  • @volkan8583
    @volkan8583 Рік тому +1

    Thank you for good explanation, as a self-taught dev it really helps deeper knowledge ! Keep it up please 👑

  • @ViniciusNegrao_
    @ViniciusNegrao_ Рік тому

    Although I had a general idea of how it worked, it was nice to learn a few extra details about assembly, thanks! Great video!

  • @johnnychang3456
    @johnnychang3456 Рік тому

    Thanks for the video. I learned this back in the uni but totally forgot about it lol. Always good to refresh memory on low level stuff.

  • @p3num6ra
    @p3num6ra Рік тому

    I just got done with a computer architecture class where we learned about the risc-v architecture. 2 minutes into the video I realized I already knew how return works lol. Nice video

  • @pvc988
    @pvc988 Рік тому +10

    How about a video on stack unwinding and C++-like exception handling?

  • @alexanderthorbrugge6489
    @alexanderthorbrugge6489 Рік тому

    It’s cool to see this video and actually already knowing how return work

  • @user-op1pp9ju6x
    @user-op1pp9ju6x Рік тому +1

    I literally had to write about this in a final-exam yesterday about what CALL and RET statement does in 8086 assembly

  • @Mystixor
    @Mystixor Рік тому +4

    Out of love and interest for a specific game I dove deep into it's assembly code using debuggers, even though I had no previous knowledge about assembly. I learned so many things just by observing which was a wonderful and fun task, and it's nice to see that these things are actually universal at least for x86.

    • @jemmerllast8492
      @jemmerllast8492 Рік тому

      What was the game, out of curiosity?

    • @williamdrum9899
      @williamdrum9899 Рік тому

      I've found most asm languages easy to learn once you've learned any one of them. While they have different instructions etc, they broadly work in a similar fashion.

    • @Mystixor
      @Mystixor Рік тому +3

      @@jemmerllast8492 Don't know if UA-cam is glitching right now but my reply seems to be gone. I am talking about Maniaplanet, the platform for the Trackmania 2 games.

  • @yurizhesson6776
    @yurizhesson6776 Рік тому +21

    Your strlen will return 1 for an empty string.

  • @luketurner314
    @luketurner314 Рік тому +1

    Read the title, but have not yet watched the video...
    It pops a value off the stack and writes that value to the instruction pointer. In the case the return statement is paired with a value, IIRC, the value is stored in memory and a specific register/pointer/flag is set to indicate there was a value returned from the subroutine. In general, at least; different architectures might handle things a little differently.
    After watching the video...
    I was more or less correct. What I referred as "the instruction pointer" is sometimes a counter in different architectures, but I covered that at the end with the "in general..." bit. My explanation of the returned value was vague/broad because it's been a while since I've dealt with low level code. Good to freshen up every so often.

  • @facundozerillo
    @facundozerillo Рік тому +1

    before watching this video i didnt actually now what "return" did, but after watching it, i now know that i dont know what it does

  • @VoidloniXaarii
    @VoidloniXaarii Рік тому

    This was more interesting than I had expected. Thank you

  • @krztsztofdziub8463
    @krztsztofdziub8463 Рік тому +10

    also interesting (and useless) fact: when returning a struct from a C function (that's not gonna fit into 32/64-bit eax/rax register) a compiler allocates the struct on the caller stack and passes the pointer to it as an extra hidden argument to the called function (callee), which is also what one would typically do in C when wanting a function to "return" multiple values. On asm level both do the same thing.

    • @ben_spiller
      @ben_spiller 4 місяці тому

      Return value optimization. This is why you shouldn't be afraid to return structs.

  • @jongeduard
    @jongeduard Рік тому +2

    Great video, with very simple but very clear explanation! Even though I knew most of this, it clarified certain terms for me (stack frame, as the term for the fraction of the stack related to 1 function/subroutine scope).
    Maybe I am going to learn ASM some day, at least the x86_64 version. At the moment I know a wide range of languages, varying between more functional to more imperative and from OOP to procedural, but I have never really done ASM. Although I have quite seriously played around with the IL assembly language from DotNet, which is certainly more abstract than real ASM, but a lot lower level than DotNet's C# language.

  • @CuteLittleHen
    @CuteLittleHen Рік тому

    Very informative and clear, thanks for this video!

  • @rocket007
    @rocket007 Рік тому

    I only understand most of this coz of the assembly language course we did in 3rd year. Thanks for breaking it down.

  • @kvbc5425
    @kvbc5425 Рік тому +59

    Would love to see some kind of reverse engineering series in which you go step by step, reversing a real-life application and explain every difficulty that you come across.

    • @FreeWithinMe
      @FreeWithinMe Рік тому +5

      We did something similar to that at Uni. We were given C code and had to turn it into MIPS (the assembly language Playstation 1 was written in). For small programs it's okay, but for a real-life application written in a high-level language like JS or Python, it would take weeks, months or even years I imagine... Our C was really simple, for example, figuring out if a number is a leap year. Assembly is fun, you can just "go to" whichever line you like lol. I found it really enjoyable but I think C runs almost as fast, so cost-to-benefit ratio-wise, it isn't worth coding in assembly. Check out Rollercoaster Tycoon from 1999, as it's coded entirely in assembly which is pretty cool :)

    • @williamdrum9899
      @williamdrum9899 Рік тому +2

      @@FreeWithinMe I've learned assembly but I barely understand C, and often with C, I have to figure out how to get the toolchain working with makefiles etc... it's a huge pain. I'm not sure which route to take since most people learn C before asm and I ended up doing the opposite

  • @akoskulcsar350
    @akoskulcsar350 Рік тому +20

    I absolutely love low level stuff. It's sad that we only learn the basics of ARM and x86 at uni. Great video. (and yes, I was sure I knew how it worked :P)

    • @anirudhkumar9139
      @anirudhkumar9139 Рік тому +4

      There's a very valid reason why we develop high level abstraction on top of low level architecture like x86 and ARM - to solve more complex problems that will take forever to accomplish using assembly

    • @williamclifford657
      @williamclifford657 Рік тому +1

      I totally agree. I used to be a teaching assistant in my old uni and we had a class where we covered assembly. It was so much fun. It was so annoying that the Uni did more advanced architecture classes for final year undergrads only after I left 😢

  • @williamdrum9899
    @williamdrum9899 Рік тому +3

    One thing I'd like to pointt out is that if you see something like "RET 8" in assembly, it is NOT the same as "return 8;" in C. In assembly, a number after RET tells the CPU how much to adjust the stack before/after returning (I forget which)

    • @alexaneals8194
      @alexaneals8194 Рік тому

      It adjusts the stack after popping of the return address into IP in 80x86 systems. Also, whether the value passed back is in the register or on the stack can be language and compiler dependent even on 80x86 systems.

    • @HenryLoenwind
      @HenryLoenwind Рік тому +1

      As Alex said. When the calling code needs to get more parameters to a function than the CPU can hold in its registers, one strategy is to put them onto the stack before calling (another one is to put them somewhere in memory and have a pointer to that address in a register). So the stack would hold the parameters, then the return address, then the function's local variables. When returning, those extra parameters need to be removed from the stack, too. The calling code can do that manually (it put them there, so it knows how much to remove) or the function can use a RET that can do that and let the CPU do that for free.

    • @trevinbeattie4888
      @trevinbeattie4888 Рік тому +1

      That depends on the calling conventions. Some architectures have a “frame pointer” in addition to the stack pointer; IIRC the frame pointer would save the value of the stack pointer just after a jump to subroutine. Then no matter how much data the function pushed onto the stack all the CPU has to do on a return is copy the frame pointer back to the stack pointer to get back to where the return address is on the stack.

  • @ens5n1e07p
    @ens5n1e07p Рік тому +3

    Thank you for this. I tried to elaborate on the semantics of `return` (and the case of Rust's implicit return for expressions) to my classmates but failed to wrap the concept in words.

  • @cold-water-gamedev
    @cold-water-gamedev Рік тому

    cant wait to watch for the next five times while I try to figure out what basics I'm missing out to get this.

  • @kibe2134
    @kibe2134 Рік тому

    Great video, I never *knew* how return statements worked, but what I always assumed was pretty much this.

  • @cmaxwellmusic80
    @cmaxwellmusic80 Рік тому

    Awesome video! Thank you for sharing!

  • @PriyanshuKumar-sp9gg
    @PriyanshuKumar-sp9gg Рік тому +491

    My name is not jeff

  • @JouvaMoufette
    @JouvaMoufette Рік тому

    I got interested in assembly as a kid while learning to program. Never wrote anything in asm, but I learned how some C calls are broken into instructions, and the whole concept of the stack and registers. So my intuition was basically the same thing that this video laid out. Just wasn't sure if the return value was going on the stack somehow or a register, but the register made more sense.

    • @acasualviewer5861
      @acasualviewer5861 Рік тому

      The reality is that often in Assembly you're free to implement these conventions however you like. Some architectures like x86 have a "call" instruction that makes you jump to a particular address and also puts the return address on the stack, but really you could just jump and store the return address in a register instead.
      The reason to have conventions, however, is that if your program is calling a C function it is often expected to follow the "C convention" (in the early days a "Pascal convention" was common on Apple Computers). And some architectures like MIPS just declare what the convention for programmers are, but it isn't really enforced.
      Some instructions may assume that certain values are stored in certain places though. But Assembly is absolute freedom.. make as big of a mess as you like!

  • @kayakMike1000
    @kayakMike1000 Рік тому +7

    Oooh. I know this one. Its the function epilogue. Functions get compiled into some bits and the function calling conventions have a prologue that stuffs the current program counter pushed to the stack. Return just pops that value back when the function returns. This is why recursive function calls can overrun the stack

    • @ohwow2074
      @ohwow2074 Рік тому +1

      Call stack has a limited size on most platforms. On Linux the default is 8 MB. So if a program uses more than that then a stack overflow error will occur.

    • @williamdrum9899
      @williamdrum9899 Рік тому +1

      8 MB is actually very generous, using more than that is quite difficult.

    • @darylcheshire1618
      @darylcheshire1618 Рік тому +2

      I remember the 6502 architecture had a hardware stack of 255 bytes. I dimly recall you had to push/pop two numbers.
      Exceeding this stack caused a Stack Overflow fatal error.
      Not sure how newer architectures do it, I imagine there is a stack in RAM which could be any size or location.
      Don’t forget that the operating system also uses the stack.

    • @ohwow2074
      @ohwow2074 Рік тому +1

      @@darylcheshire1618on Monday modern systems every thread has its own call stack. They're randomly placed in memory to avoid hackers from accessing them.

    • @williamdrum9899
      @williamdrum9899 Рік тому

      @@darylcheshire1618 Modern systems typically use the upper portion of heap memory, if your stack gets two big it can start to clobber the heap but this doesn't usually happen except with a botched recursion or the like

  • @youtubepooppismo5284
    @youtubepooppismo5284 Рік тому +7

    The best way to learn this stuff is to implement your own/sort of programming language. I never completed it, but you had to think about go to instructions to implements ifs and loop statements and return statements and pushing parameters to functions.

    • @FoxSlyme
      @FoxSlyme Рік тому

      Turing Complete is also a good game to learn that kind of stuff

    • @mrosskne
      @mrosskne Рік тому

      lmao

  • @mariovelez578
    @mariovelez578 Рік тому

    Just finished my Assembly class, so I did in fact know about how "return" works.
    push pc onto the stack
    frame pointer stores the location of pc
    ... code ...
    return values go in r0-r3 registers
    use the frame pointer to bring pc back

  • @jayshartzer844
    @jayshartzer844 Рік тому

    An interesting video. I'll ret to it in the future. Many pointers I can count on here.

  • @oddlyspecificmath
    @oddlyspecificmath Рік тому

    I watched because you asked if I was sure. 😊 I was but that's not a problem; this was nice and concise. Also nice to hear, at the end, something pentesters and CTF folks should appreciate.

  • @savagesarethebest7251
    @savagesarethebest7251 Рік тому +6

    I believe that for m68k the instruction is not "call" but rather "jsr" or "Jump to SubRoutine". I used to make my own games for Sega Genesis when I was 12 years old 😅

    • @williamdrum9899
      @williamdrum9899 Рік тому

      Can confirm, about a year ago I was trying to make a genesis game. But I couldn't get the sound to work

    • @ryonagana
      @ryonagana 9 місяців тому

      u must be a genius

  • @fmwyt95
    @fmwyt95 Рік тому

    as someone who has an on and off interest in implementing esolangs, creating control stacks in software is a really common bit of boilerplate. Even a language as simple (and devoid of conventional subroutines) as Brainf**k may need to know several potential jump points simultaneously in order to function properly. It's really interesting seeing these things I typically think of as snippets of C code being performed completely "on the metal" as it were.

  • @lowlevelcodingch
    @lowlevelcodingch 2 місяці тому

    the background music and the words at 0:59 gave me chills smhw

  • @zlcoolboy
    @zlcoolboy Рік тому

    This is more complicated than I assumed it would be. I'm glad I clicked on this so that I could understand it better.

  • @peterjansen4826
    @peterjansen4826 Рік тому +5

    I better understand it considering that I studied two courses of computer science (based on the well known book from Patterson) and I had to learn the basics (architecture and assembly) of MIPS-architecture. I don't know the details of X86 assembly though.

    • @nieczerwony
      @nieczerwony Рік тому

      Which book you are referring to?

    • @williamdrum9899
      @williamdrum9899 Рік тому

      It's a bit different, in that there are fewer registers and more specialized commands. Also there are much fewer limitations on addressing modes (you can use register offsets for indexing unlike MIPS)

  • @yuriiklopovsky
    @yuriiklopovsky Рік тому +2

    Great stuff!
    Can you do a video on linkers and binary file formats?

  • @bazoo513
    @bazoo513 Рік тому +1

    Abstract machines almost always work in this way. In real world processor architectures there are myriad of variations, mostly regarding the use of registers (because they are faster than memory based stack, although there are architectures where the pot of the stack is aliased to a register bank).
    However, to make this useful to viewers sufficiently "naive" not to know this already, an explanation of the concept of stack (or LIFO) as a data structure is in order.

  • @jjkthebest
    @jjkthebest Рік тому +1

    You made me question my knowledge, but is is exactly what I learned at Uni. So yes. I'm sure

  • @captainwonders7708
    @captainwonders7708 Рік тому +1

    I spent a decent amount of this video shouting STACK!!! at my monitor

  • @ar_xiv
    @ar_xiv Рік тому +21

    I always thought it meant return this value as in “give back this integer” because you can usually leave off the return if the function is void…but I’m also mostly a c# dev. Now that I think of it I had the same confusion with C# “yield” which I thought meant “yield this value” like a yield of crops or something lol, as opposed to “break” which “yields” nothing by itself. I think my interpretations aren’t too far off from the actual behavior though because like where in the word yield is there an implication that you can enter back into the loop. I guess “return” is a little more straightforward haha. That’s self taught CS for ya

    • @christopheriman4921
      @christopheriman4921 Рік тому +1

      I am self taught in the CS that I know and I actually came up with almost the exact same solution to the problem when I was interested enough to try a CS game that had me build a computer from nand gates. It was annoying for me having to repeatedly write the same logic over and over again where I needed it so, I had come up with putting Call and Return in as instructions, all Call did was take the instruction pointer plus instruction width and store that on the stack, and all return did was pop a value off the stack and jump to it. I still manually had to create a stack frame by pushing any state I needed to the stack before the call and popping all the state I saved off the stack after the return but it worked well enough that I didn't change it for quite a while.

    • @williamdrum9899
      @williamdrum9899 Рік тому +4

      You were correct about what return means in C-like languages. It takes a few more steps to do that in machine code however, as the video explains. If you had a function like this:
      void doNothing{
      }
      it would generally be optimized away by the compiler, but let's say your compiler didn't do that it would look like this in ASM:
      doNothing:
      ret

    • @nightfox6738
      @nightfox6738 Рік тому +1

      returns are implicit from void functions. Basically a QOL feature for many languages that you don't have to explicitly write it but it's still there in the compiled machine code / assembly.

    • @williamdrum9899
      @williamdrum9899 Рік тому

      @@nightfox6738 I should have just explained it like this, it's much better than what I said

  • @codeman99-dev
    @codeman99-dev Рік тому +8

    Yes, I definitely understand how return works. I've learned nearly everything I know about assembly from Ben Eater. He is quite an excellent teacher.

    • @williamdrum9899
      @williamdrum9899 Рік тому

      I learned mostly from Chibiakumas

    • @barto1035
      @barto1035 Рік тому +1

      I learned about computers from Ben Eater and redstone

    • @nightfox6738
      @nightfox6738 Рік тому

      I love his breadboard computer series. It taught me so much about computer architecture.

  • @CSalvarani3
    @CSalvarani3 4 місяці тому +1

    I couldn't help but notice that the strlen() implementation shown in the video has an off-by-one error. It always returns the string length plus one (i.e. it includes the null character).

  • @keit99
    @keit99 Рік тому

    I figured it would save the return adress at call, and moving the stack related pointers actually explain lifetimes of stack variables quite well.

    • @LowLevelLearning
      @LowLevelLearning  Рік тому

      Yup! The way the stack frame is constructed is the reason local variable scope exists. Thanks for watching!

  • @ward7576
    @ward7576 Рік тому

    Funny enough, for the longest time when beginning learning about OOP, "return" was the most difficult thing for me to wrap my head around as previously in learning "echo"ing was the "alternative" used with "returns".

  • @TheDogn
    @TheDogn Рік тому

    I was able to follow this reasonably well because of how carefully and methodically you speak, but I laughed when you said "don't worry, it's not complicated"

  • @Bolpat
    @Bolpat Рік тому

    Basically, return and function calling in general works as if the called function had an implicit return address parameter. It's filled by the caller and used by the callee.
    Named return value optimization (NRVO) does the same for the result: the caller makes space for the result and the callee has an implicit return parameter that is bound to the address of the space for the result.

  • @mail2toan
    @mail2toan 10 місяців тому

    Love your videos!

  • @ThePowerRanger
    @ThePowerRanger Рік тому

    More of these please.

  • @bean_mhm
    @bean_mhm Рік тому

    That was a great explanation

  • @oglothenerd
    @oglothenerd Рік тому +1

    Returning function calls was the first concept I really understood without explanation! Lol!

  • @caty863
    @caty863 Рік тому

    In R, we don't have to explicitly call *return.* The function will return what ever value it lastly assigned

  • @richardericlope3341
    @richardericlope3341 Рік тому

    I remember ret had a parameter as to how many bytes to pop from the stack. I pretty much used it in conjunction with ADD SP, n for garbage values. They were faster than popping regs off the stack. Experienced lots of crashes messing around with those regs. Lol
    Years later, made an interpreted language that called functions without a stack(challenging myself or just masochism). Had to invent a sort of name mangling scheme so that I could fetch functions from the symbol table itself along with the return address ina vectorized AST.

  • @kipchickensout
    @kipchickensout Рік тому +1

    Ah damn, the title made me unsure but I actually knew all dat,
    but it was very nice to watch anyways 👍

  • @masternerd64
    @masternerd64 Рік тому

    I actually guessed this is how it's done. Such a simple but brilliant way to handle it

    • @williamdrum9899
      @williamdrum9899 Рік тому

      It's unfortunately also the reason why buffer overrun attacks exist. If an array stored on the stack is indexed out of bounds, a hacker can overwrite the return address with the address of any function he wants and "return" to it, even if the program hasn't been there before.

  • @crashmatrix
    @crashmatrix Рік тому +1

    Some constructive critisism if welcome; in my experience, people who need or want this concept explained often don't understand what a stack is, or why that type of datastructure is used here. I think you could do a followup about how a stack generally works, that it's useful because it models a stack trace naturally, and perhaps a bit about why it's also preferred because physical machines can easily implement it in hardware.

  • @PhilippeCarphin
    @PhilippeCarphin Рік тому

    I really like the hand shake between Arnold and a dude whose been pushing too many pencils as the image for an agreement!

  • @c42xe
    @c42xe Рік тому

    Great Video. Thanks

  • @Luke-nf8ug
    @Luke-nf8ug Рік тому

    This reminds me of the compiler design course.

  • @andreffrosa
    @andreffrosa Рік тому

    More of these, please

  • @ChrisPetersenPeeto
    @ChrisPetersenPeeto Рік тому +1

    TLDR; The result is put in the accumulator register and the return address is pushed to the stack on a function call and popped out on function completion

  • @tonysiu8562
    @tonysiu8562 Рік тому

    Thank you for this video. It would be great if you could also demystify Lamba. It seems there is another level of complexity added in there

  • @chase6428
    @chase6428 Рік тому +3

    When you call a function, the return address is pushed onto the stack as well as any variables being passes into the function. you jmp to the address where the function lives, execute the code there, and the last few lines of (machine code) of the function should pop all of the locals off of the stack and JMP back to the saved return address.
    Now lets see how wrong I am(have not watched the video yet).

    • @chase6428
      @chase6428 Рік тому

      @@ayoubedd The only assembly code ive learned is LC-3 (stupid oldschool). I cant remeber the exact order i do remember we moved the program counter, as well as the local vars for the function directly into our registers (of which we only had 7).
      Its good to review.

  • @ViniciusTeixeira1
    @ViniciusTeixeira1 Рік тому +4

    I think the idea will 99% of the time be the same for all architectures, but they all execute it a bit differently. For example: MIPS Assembly uses 'jal ' as the function call. That instruction writes the PC value into the $ra register, then writes the function offset into PC. Then, the 'return' would be 'jr $ra', which would write the $ra value into PC :) (basically a jump function but using the values stored in $ra as the address)

    • @rm_steele
      @rm_steele Рік тому +4

      I believe the 6502 would use JSR, jump to subroutine, and push the PC onto the stack. RTS, return from subroutine, would grab whatever 2 values were on the stack and jump to that address.

    • @williamdrum9899
      @williamdrum9899 Рік тому +2

      It's mostly the same except most CISC computers use the top of the stack to store the return address

  • @GAMER-MIND
    @GAMER-MIND Рік тому

    i was wondering how the "returrn" work thanks for the video love to see more video like this

    • @cigmorfil4101
      @cigmorfil4101 Рік тому

      IIRC The GEC 4000 series processors didn't have a stack - the return address was stored in an address in the subroutine header. This made for an interesting C compiler - it used the RY register as a stack pointer (fun days interfacing C with Babbage routines).

  • @privacyvalued4134
    @privacyvalued4134 Рік тому

    There are different "calling conventions" for calling functions. __stdcall and __cdecl are the most popular in C/C++. Keep in mind that C somewhat assumes that you already know how to write assembly language code as it is a mostly convenient layer over assembly.

  • @darylcheshire1618
    @darylcheshire1618 Рік тому +1

    On a 6502, I wanted to copy a disk volume to a RAM disk, the disk was then ejected leaving the RAM disk as the only boot device. I wanted to reboot the machine, this was achieved by a small machine language procedure which threw away the return value causing the reboot.

  • @MrDMIDOV
    @MrDMIDOV Рік тому +7

    Yes I do. And a much simpler way to understand not just “return” but every other component of a high-level language (like arrays, function stacks, etc) is just learn MIPS.

    • @williamdrum9899
      @williamdrum9899 Рік тому +1

      I learned 6502 Assembly first, haha. Took me about a year to "get it" but now I can learn basically any assembly language no problem.

    • @cigmorfil4101
      @cigmorfil4101 Рік тому

      ​@@williamdrum9899my first processor was the 6502. I quickly learnt to program it in hex without op codes as the computers I generally used had no assembler nor disassembler.
      The 6502 has some interesting quirks. Its little endianness speeds up processing of calculated addressing: it adds the offset to the LSB whilst the MSB is loading, and only needs the extra cycle to increment the MSB if a page boundary is crossed. Due to synchronous memory accessing whilst the 6502 is deciding and incrementing the MSB if necessary, it loads the byte at the address found so far. If the MSB needed changing it throws this away and loads the correct byte. It is this synchronous memory access that allows a read to be a cycle shorter if a page boundary is not crossed, but to prevent memory being splatted over a write always waits until the correct address is confirmed before writing.
      The incorrect address is the same offset in the previous page of memory. Normally this may not be a problem, but if that page contains memory mapped IO a side effect can be to trigger hardware that relies on just a memory access (the Apple ][ had some such memory locations). A write does a read before the write so writing to such memory locations results in a double access.
      The bug in the JMP (I) instruction is due to the LSB being incremented but no check being made for overflow to 0 from 0xFF.
      For a JSR it also stores the return address as the last byte of the instruction, so that when a RTS is executed, after loading the return address it needs to increment it for the next instruction. This is something to do with the "pipelining" the 6502 does as part of its synchronous memory access whereby it is finishing off the previous instruction when it loads the next instruction.

  • @s1l3nttt
    @s1l3nttt Рік тому

    nice, quality video, I am glad I chose to watch it

  • @tommyhuffman7499
    @tommyhuffman7499 Рік тому

    Best videos I've seen to answer the question, "How does my computer work?"

  • @nightfox6738
    @nightfox6738 Рік тому +3

    I've built a cpu in logisim and implemented "JSR" (Jump to Sub Routine) and "RET" and a hardware stack and wrote a recursive factorial program for it so I do indeed know how return really works but this was a really cool video.

  • @mactavish7287
    @mactavish7287 Рік тому

    Added to a playlist "Forever"!

  • @MrChickenpoulet
    @MrChickenpoulet Рік тому

    awesome video! nice work

  • @I_HopeThatNoOneHasThisName
    @I_HopeThatNoOneHasThisName Рік тому +1

    Turns out i really knew how return works

  • @sciverzero8197
    @sciverzero8197 Рік тому +1

    Yes I do. return tells the architecture to pop the stored program counter off the stack and replace the current program counter with it, while also moving any return values into register(s) specified by the architecture as return registers...
    *video*
    Yes I am sure.
    Yay for learning ARM in my youth and never using it.

  • @thisisnotok2100
    @thisisnotok2100 Рік тому +1

    Truly, this is one of the things that happens in a computer

  • @MrRecorder1
    @MrRecorder1 Рік тому

    Love these kinds of videos: Here my prediction before the video actually started: It depends on the actual CPU-architecture, if we are dealing with a regiter-less CPU, the result probably gets pushed on the stack somehow, either by the caller reserving memory on the callstack, or implicitly using the address after the return address. If the processor has no memory but registers, some registers will be chose. If we are talking exclusively X86/amd64 - it is mostly registers nowadays, but since now higher-level languages like JavaScript and/or Python could come into the mix, the waters get murky and it could be some random field in an interpreter as well... That would be my answer if this was asked in a job interview :D

    • @MrRecorder1
      @MrRecorder1 Рік тому

      Darn it... I thought this was about the result not only the return-address.. OK :D

  • @nickbelanger5225
    @nickbelanger5225 Рік тому

    A really clear refresher, this is what I love about this channel

  • @mek101whatif7
    @mek101whatif7 Рік тому +2

    strlen is wrong. Is should subtract 1 at the end or initialize i at -1

  • @GabrielM01
    @GabrielM01 Рік тому

    I will leave it to the compiler thanks

  • @Nathan00at78Uuiu
    @Nathan00at78Uuiu Рік тому +1

    Is there a subject or topic to study that goes more in depth into this lesson? There is learning assembly but how about learning how the cpu works and runs a program. All the stuff covered in this video. What would be a good resource?

    • @williamdrum9899
      @williamdrum9899 Рік тому +1

      I think Chibiakumas is a good resource (look it up on youtube.) The CPU in general terms operates a lot like a BASIC interpreter from the 80s. Now, there are some more complex things going on in modern CPUs, but in general your assembly code is executed from the start to the finish, from the top of your source code document going down, one line at a time. Chibiakumas' videos are more in the context of retro game consoles than computers, which do have a few differences to be aware of. For example, on a Game Boy or Sega Genesis, your "main()" isn't going to return since there's nothing to return to. Trying to return from main on one of those systems is more than likely going to crash, as you're just taking whatever junk is on top of the stack and blindly GOTOing it.

  • @emjizone
    @emjizone Рік тому

    So this is asm level. Good to remember. Thanks.

  • @JohnAranita
    @JohnAranita Рік тому

    I love "pointers" in Pascal.

  • @maritoguionyo
    @maritoguionyo Рік тому +1

    1:36 I was thinking, bl and blr (powerpc asm)

  • @bastian9945
    @bastian9945 Рік тому

    I think we need a video or series of the i2c and USB protocol with microcontrollers

  • @sunnohh
    @sunnohh Рік тому

    Return makes sense, “this” is a magical function in javascript

  • @MechMK1
    @MechMK1 Рік тому +1

    It's also not correct to say the return value goes into a register. It's more correct to say "It goes into the register - if it fits". Keep in mind you can return structs or other potentially very large data types, which are allocated on the stack. In these cases, space is actually allocated on the stack frame of the *calling* function, which is where the return value is copied to. This is usually not done, because moving large amounts of memory around on the heap is not a good idea - but it is technically possible.

  • @lyte2882
    @lyte2882 Рік тому

    I like LLL cuz he makes videos on stuff you dont think about regularly but happen to be very interesting