Hi Bill -- Very entertaining video! I have two TIs and a Dovo which needed some form of geometry correction when new. I don't see this as a big deal but I am accustomed to correcting geometry and all of these razors became great shavers. I've had 3 Gold Dollars. All of them had greater than 20 degree bevel angles. I ground the spines on these so that the geometry was in the 18 degree range then dealt with the wandering edge (none of the edges were directly under the spine). On one of the razors, the steel's temper was so bad that it would not hold an edge. The other two took a fine edge. But, _really_ , who wants to do that much work on such a cheap razor.
Thanks Greg. IMO, GoDallahs are helpful in the developing sensory feedback of steel on sharpening media. Even though I do have some of these ‘China Wonders’ that shave remarkably well it is unlikely that I would ever put them in the same class as even the worst of the old line European manufacturers. I had opportunity to sharpen one particularly egregious 5/8 TI example from the Art of Shaving heydays, it almost looked as if someone deliberately bowed out a small part of the edge with a small cylindrical object. The razor’s owner, who is a successful honer in his own right, gave me a shot at it after his and a number of other attempts and opinions came back as “unhone-able”. While no razor maker should take pride in something like that particular example, one can figure out how to sharpen it. The thin flexibility in the edge allowed it to bend around a slight curvature without forcing the apex shift from one side to the other. It had very nice blended color horn scales and traditional tight TI pinning. I would take it any day over anything I bought from China.
_GoDallahs are helpful in the developing sensory feedback of steel on sharpening media_ I agree. If the razor needs correction, though, a beginner who doesn't recognize this may get quite frustrated with the edge that results from an uncorrected razor.
Good video. Set my alarm so I could get up and watch the primer first. Watched it all in real time, all the way through. You were wrong about a lot of stuff. I won’t give any specifics, that’s just what us UA-cam trolls do. On a serious note, have a great Mother’s Day and make someone feel loved and special. Take care
Infallibility seldom happens on my channel. Another virtue here is our love and acceptance of UA-cam trolls. You have a great day too my friend. Charcoal grilled ribeye 🥩 and Chesapeake style steamed 🍤 to honor the Mother of my children later today.
On a long ellipse you are correct. On high curve stones with minimal or no cross crown it is the opposite. Try to think of a wheel without a cross crown. On a hollow razor held at 90º to the wheel with both edge and spine areas touching you would hit on the leading edge of the spine area and the trailing end of the bevel with a wide contact footprint. Holding that razor by the tang totally in the belt direction contact at the apex and rear most portion of the spine on a very small contact footprints.
Hello. As a general rule I do not hone for personal gain. Over time I have sharpened a fair share of razors for others usually covered by a gentleman’s agreement that their satisfaction trigger a generous commensurate donation to a charity of their choice. I would only work on something that an individual considers ‘user grade’ Items of high value, heirloom or elite pristine display type categories would likely be declined. Similar to almost all professional honers, I would not bother with inexpensive Chinese razors that are not my own. I don’t publish my personal contact info here on YT, but you can contact me through a private message at TheShavingCadre.com. Membership there is required to do this, but free of charge. Alternately, The professional business entity I usually recommend is Jarrod Connerty, proprietor of TheSuperiorShave.com … He has an excellent reputation with 10’s of thousands of items completed. Thanks for your interest.
I do feel the difference in the 2 constructions, but would be hard pressed to identify a harder less flexible product as less comfortable. I have heard many opine that the softer end products from Sheffield led them to be more comfortable.
@@billm.2677 yes exactly Bill the softer the steel the more confortable it feels on the skin unless that softer steel wasn’t heat treated properly and developed a thick grain structure. The worst would be a very hard steel with an improper grain structure.
The general nomenclature is that anything above 0.6 "ish" is "high carbon" I have a razor that it D 2 (as well as several knives) which is 1. 5.... And it's very brittle... But the grain structure of the steel as a result of stress reliving, annealing, work hardening environments matter... A c-135 has a very high level of carbon, very close to a D2 ...which is why so many people have issue with TI .. Also the interaction between some steels and.some stones is different..that is why there is NO singular process that is superior ..
Hey bill, I would be happy to discuss the intention and efficacy of using the convex / radius honing of the yanagiba.. As well the infamous katana.. With all due respect you are incorrect. Believe it it or not these knives and swords have a convex radius on the beveled edge, and yes they are created with a radius on the hone. The idea, explained in the video, is to create a perfect "convex" profile by working small areas at a time... Please see how he works from the mid line down to the bevel (often designated as a "zero bevel" ) It's an art that has absolutely nothing to do with western/ European style razors.. In fact it is the exact opposite. The minimal contact is how they create a legendary geometry on yanagiba as well as katana .. I would strongly encourage you to research Murray Carter .... especially since he made fun of straight razor nonsense by sharpening a spoon to shave with..
Thanks for listening and your input. I really know very little about traditional Japanese style sharp stuff or sushi prep. I found the referenced video interesting as it sounded like he was working to create a hollowing into the center of his bevel. It was my understanding that the knife design has a concave or hollowing on the non-bevel side and is typically sharpened with a flat bevel. I have read the planned use of this knife is to minimize possibility of tearing and bruising of raw sushi flesh. Cutting is an act of force in which thinner always wins over thicker in the lower force required department. It made sense to me that a hollowing also in the bevel side somewhere behind the edge would facilitate the planned knife use. I like Murray Carter, have watched most of his published content and have a high respect for his skill and accomplishments. I will have to revisit his stuff on the topic. Maybe I misinterpreted the sushi chef in what he was trying to accomplish in his knife sharpening. Something else I will need to revisit. One thing for sure, it is unlikely that you would find me in the middle if a disagreement exists between these two gents. I have used flat bevels, compound flat bevels, and convex bevels on my kitchen stuff. I prefer flat bevel for peak performance longevity. I prefer a convex bevel for quick and easy attainment of the top performance. It is way beyond my skill and patience to create a hollow bevel kitchen knife freehand although I would love to try one. I’d love to have a couple of Tormek sharpeners to play around with. I seem to recall decades ago an early lumberjack competition on TV where competition chopping axes were described as having custom thinned cutting hardware. I many times looked to find that presentation and always come up empty.
Here is Murray displaying and talking about a custom set of traditional Japanese knives he had just made. He discusses concavity on the back created on a very large waterstone. Later he tells of how he finished the bevel area. Hand stone work 1st, then 800 grit belt on 20” wheel. Seems that last step would produce flatness if the blade were held only in machine direction and concavity for any skew towards cross machine direction. I am sure he has the skill to produce a convexity on that bevel using a wheel like he has demonstrated using stones, but I fail to understand why he would not just get on a tensioned unsupported area and allow the natural deflection to take care of it. ua-cam.com/video/DHqcNzkNEao/v-deo.htmlsi=1RLAc0BkpFerqsMg
@@billm.2677 This is very difficult to explain for an old man in text.. however.. (Hell it's difficult to execute in person) For one, the "flat" side (which is hollow in the center margin,as explained), hollow in the area of friction, not cutting.. Often Kataba are called "single bevel" because there is only one "traditional bevel"... And they are left or right handed (usually right, because people still reject the perfection of left handed person's 😉) However, as described the parameter of the blade is still flat ... The "bevel" side is convex... In the context of a fine sushi knife (yanagiba for example) it is slight....in the context of a sword it is more pronounced. The line where a flat slap of steel slopes down (such as in a "saber" grind or "hollow" grind in western terms ...is.called the shinogi line.. This is important, because in the video you referenced the first wave of "sharpening" (where the first series of small circles are drawn) is intended to raise the shinogi... Then you maintain the convexity down the blade.. It's completely different from how the western world thinks of blade profiling and even maintenance throughout the life of the blade.. But long story short the hollowing of the back side (which would face the piece being cut) is not a "hollow ground " profile the way the normal European/western world would define a hollow grind Mr Carter him self pointed out the "hair" line flat area around the hollow portion which was forged not ground ..
@@Kmurray9244 Thanks for your explanation. I would love to have had the opportunity to be in the same room with Murray Carter as he displayed his handiwork and have the opportunity to handle and ask questions about it. I can sometimes agree but am mostly with your information on those with Right Brain - Left Handed perfection. As someone who handwrites and fires long guns on the Left, while plays sports and handguns on the right preference, I remain mostly confuzzelated. At many points in my feeble attempts to break 100 in golf, I wondered if I should have taken up that game from the left.
@@billm.2677 😂 I will apologize.. It's hard to articulate on text at work... And my texting is lac luster at best ( gibberish Is the norm) .. In short, the video you provided was a beautiful demonstration of how to hone a very specific japanese style knife and has absolutely no bearing or benefit to your passion for a convex hone.. 🤷♂️ My polite way of saying "you completely misunderstood" the principal and use of the hone, and more importantly the methodology.
Apparently the new Dovo razors are made from blank's that Dovo get from a German company that provides most of the blanks for the German razor industry. Dovo no longer makes their own blanks . The new razors have the Dovo name laser etched. The old blank's were forged in house & the name was stamped into the tang. I have two Dovo razors currently in my possession and the older one with the name stamped into the tang is great. The new one is awful & I only keep it because it was a gift.
Thanks for watching. In my opinion, the market for straight razors is unlikely to rebound enough for production manufacturers of straight razors to ever make economic sense to resume in-house forging. I have seen old videos of Dovo razor making where the forging was part of the process they did. I have much interest in this sort of thing.
they have never forged their own blanks and they have only bought them from the current forge supplier for 40+ yrs your older razor with the stamped tang, unless it is from the
@@billm.2677 yes, those closeups of the hot steels being hammered in to the dies are always from the Solingen forges, dunno why German blacksmiths and grinders have always been separate but they certainly have. In Thiers, where the certain pocket knife 'laguiole' is a cultural importance, it is not uncommon for small grinders to also do their own forging (though multiple forges still exist in Thiers and still make blanks for such knives, too), but not Germany. In fact I would not be shocked to find out for some of the models that the forging dies they smack upon are the same ones from many decades ago. Same forge, same dies, only the workers changed, and where they get their raw steel (which today is admittedly quite inferior to yesteryear because they can no longer get flat sheets, they get long bails of raw steel and roll them out, flat from birth is better but apparently gone from this Earth for the 52100 recipe + quantity + cost combo they can obtain from the world steel market).
Differencial curve honing is the very essence of convex honing in my opinion. Without it the results can only reach a certain point. For the second step i found a coticule gave me the best results
I have one coticule on a 3’ radius that I have been using more and more these days. My skill level could never access the capability to make it a finisher, but it does cut fast. It makes me want to run out for one more easily suited to that task. I do find coticules much easier to shape than Arkansas and easier to maintain than synthetics.
@@billm.2677 yes coticules are quite easy to shape..i use mine on a 7m curve and i finish with a surgical black ark shaped on the long axis of the Jarrod plate..coticules are awesome so as not to cut too fast at the front of the bevel. I have seen Jarrod use them as finishers in convex honing.
@@riverrazors7915 I have seen a coticule he likes and regularly uses at that second step on I believe the same curvature as yours. One day I may try to make one, but he has an early ABS 3D printed plate with that dimension. It was considered to be off spec to design. I did learn that some angling in the use of the finish stone can sufficient blend those differences.
That sounds like a good challenge for the community. The Gold Dollar challenge, find the easiest way to get an acceptable shave edge. ❤
Very nice shave, Bill. Glad the refinish on the Dovo came out so well. Convex honing… I’m still ambivalent, but I listened. 👍🏻
Thanks Leon. No right, no wrong; One must do what they deem as successful tool preparation.
Hi Bill -- Very entertaining video! I have two TIs and a Dovo which needed some form of geometry correction when new. I don't see this as a big deal but I am accustomed to correcting geometry and all of these razors became great shavers. I've had 3 Gold Dollars. All of them had greater than 20 degree bevel angles. I ground the spines on these so that the geometry was in the 18 degree range then dealt with the wandering edge (none of the edges were directly under the spine). On one of the razors, the steel's temper was so bad that it would not hold an edge. The other two took a fine edge. But, _really_ , who wants to do that much work on such a cheap razor.
Thanks Greg. IMO, GoDallahs are helpful in the developing sensory feedback of steel on sharpening media. Even though I do have some of these ‘China Wonders’ that shave remarkably well it is unlikely that I would ever put them in the same class as even the worst of the old line European manufacturers. I had opportunity to sharpen one particularly egregious 5/8 TI example from the Art of Shaving heydays, it almost looked as if someone deliberately bowed out a small part of the edge with a small cylindrical object. The razor’s owner, who is a successful honer in his own right, gave me a shot at it after his and a number of other attempts and opinions came back as “unhone-able”. While no razor maker should take pride in something like that particular example, one can figure out how to sharpen it. The thin flexibility in the edge allowed it to bend around a slight curvature without forcing the apex shift from one side to the other. It had very nice blended color horn scales and traditional tight TI pinning. I would take it any day over anything I bought from China.
_GoDallahs are helpful in the developing sensory feedback of steel on sharpening media_
I agree. If the razor needs correction, though, a beginner who doesn't recognize this may get quite frustrated with the edge that results from an uncorrected razor.
Good video. Set my alarm so
I could get up and watch the primer first. Watched it all in real time, all the way through. You were wrong about a lot of stuff. I won’t give any specifics, that’s just what us UA-cam trolls do.
On a serious note, have a great Mother’s Day and make someone feel loved and special. Take care
Infallibility seldom happens on my channel. Another virtue here is our love and acceptance of UA-cam trolls.
You have a great day too my friend. Charcoal grilled ribeye 🥩 and Chesapeake style steamed 🍤 to honor the Mother of my children later today.
Thiers issard blanks are made in thiers France.
All German and east european razors blanks come from the exact same forge in solingen
Confirmation of my understanding from one of the World’s Finest Custom Razor Makers. Thanks Boris
90° strokes hit towards more to the apex. Askewed strokes hit more toward the base of the bevel.
On a long ellipse you are correct. On high curve stones with minimal or no cross crown it is the opposite.
Try to think of a wheel without a cross crown.
On a hollow razor held at 90º to the wheel with both edge and spine areas touching you would hit on the leading edge of the spine area and the trailing end of the bevel with a wide contact footprint.
Holding that razor by the tang totally in the belt direction contact at the apex and rear most portion of the spine on a very small contact footprints.
@@billm.2677 I am going by flat hones:)
Hello, do you sharpen and hone razors for people ? I love shaving with a straight razor but have no idea how to hone one.
Hello.
As a general rule I do not hone for personal gain. Over time I have sharpened a fair share of razors for others usually covered by a gentleman’s agreement that their satisfaction trigger a generous commensurate donation to a charity of their choice. I would only work on something that an individual considers ‘user grade’ Items of high value, heirloom or elite pristine display type categories would likely be declined. Similar to almost all professional honers, I would not bother with inexpensive Chinese razors that are not my own.
I don’t publish my personal contact info here on YT, but you can contact me through a private message at TheShavingCadre.com. Membership there is required to do this, but free of charge.
Alternately, The professional business entity I usually recommend is Jarrod Connerty, proprietor of TheSuperiorShave.com … He has an excellent reputation with 10’s of thousands of items completed.
Thanks for your interest.
@@billm.2677 awesome, I greatly appreciate your honesty and response.
C-135 has 1.35% carbon yes, its gets to very high hardness and is not has confortable to shave with as other softer steels.
I do feel the difference in the 2 constructions, but would be hard pressed to identify a harder less flexible product as less comfortable. I have heard many opine that the softer end products from Sheffield led them to be more comfortable.
@@billm.2677 yes exactly Bill the softer the steel the more confortable it feels on the skin unless that softer steel wasn’t heat treated properly and developed a thick grain structure.
The worst would be a very hard steel with an improper grain structure.
The general nomenclature is that anything above 0.6 "ish" is "high carbon"
I have a razor that it D 2 (as well as several knives) which is 1. 5.... And it's very brittle...
But the grain structure of the steel as a result of stress reliving, annealing, work hardening environments matter...
A c-135 has a very high level of carbon, very close to a D2 ...which is why so many people have issue with TI ..
Also the interaction between some steels and.some stones is different..that is why there is NO singular process that is superior ..
👍
The Europeans don’t hate you Bill😉
All in Yankee jest my friend.
@@billm.2677 i know i was just pushing the joke back at you my friend.
@@riverrazors7915 Received as such my friend.
Hey bill, I would be happy to discuss the intention and efficacy of using the convex / radius honing of the yanagiba..
As well the infamous katana..
With all due respect you are incorrect.
Believe it it or not these knives and swords have a convex radius on the beveled edge, and yes they are created with a radius on the hone.
The idea, explained in the video, is to create a perfect "convex" profile by working small areas at a time... Please see how he works from the mid line down to the bevel (often designated as a "zero bevel" )
It's an art that has absolutely nothing to do with western/ European style razors..
In fact it is the exact opposite.
The minimal contact is how they create a legendary geometry on yanagiba as well as katana ..
I would strongly encourage you to research Murray Carter .... especially since he made fun of straight razor nonsense by sharpening a spoon to shave with..
Thanks for listening and your input.
I really know very little about traditional Japanese style sharp stuff or sushi prep. I found the referenced video interesting as it sounded like he was working to create a hollowing into the center of his bevel.
It was my understanding that the knife design has a concave or hollowing on the non-bevel side and is typically sharpened with a flat bevel. I have read the planned use of this knife is to minimize possibility of tearing and bruising of raw sushi flesh. Cutting is an act of force in which thinner always wins over thicker in the lower force required department. It made sense to me that a hollowing also in the bevel side somewhere behind the edge would facilitate the planned knife use. I like Murray Carter, have watched most of his published content and have a high respect for his skill and accomplishments. I will have to revisit his stuff on the topic.
Maybe I misinterpreted the sushi chef in what he was trying to accomplish in his knife sharpening. Something else I will need to revisit.
One thing for sure, it is unlikely that you would find me in the middle if a disagreement exists between these two gents.
I have used flat bevels, compound flat bevels, and convex bevels on my kitchen stuff.
I prefer flat bevel for peak performance longevity.
I prefer a convex bevel for quick and easy attainment of the top performance.
It is way beyond my skill and patience to create a hollow bevel kitchen knife freehand although I would love to try one.
I’d love to have a couple of Tormek sharpeners to play around with.
I seem to recall decades ago an early lumberjack competition on TV where competition chopping axes were described as having custom thinned cutting hardware. I many times looked to find that presentation and always come up empty.
Here is Murray displaying and talking about a custom set of traditional Japanese knives he had just made. He discusses concavity on the back created on a very large waterstone. Later he tells of how he finished the bevel area. Hand stone work 1st, then 800 grit belt on 20” wheel. Seems that last step would produce flatness if the blade were held only in machine direction and concavity for any skew towards cross machine direction. I am sure he has the skill to produce a convexity on that bevel using a wheel like he has demonstrated using stones, but I fail to understand why he would not just get on a tensioned unsupported area and allow the natural deflection to take care of it.
ua-cam.com/video/DHqcNzkNEao/v-deo.htmlsi=1RLAc0BkpFerqsMg
@@billm.2677 This is very difficult to explain for an old man in text.. however..
(Hell it's difficult to execute in person)
For one, the "flat" side (which is hollow in the center margin,as explained), hollow in the area of friction, not cutting..
Often Kataba are called "single bevel" because there is only one "traditional bevel"... And they are left or right handed (usually right, because people still reject the perfection of left handed person's 😉)
However, as described the parameter of the blade is still flat ...
The "bevel" side is convex... In the context of a fine sushi knife (yanagiba for example) it is slight....in the context of a sword it is more pronounced.
The line where a flat slap of steel slopes down (such as in a "saber" grind or "hollow" grind in western terms ...is.called the shinogi line..
This is important, because in the video you referenced the first wave of "sharpening" (where the first series of small circles are drawn) is intended to raise the shinogi...
Then you maintain the convexity down the blade..
It's completely different from how the western world thinks of blade profiling and even maintenance throughout the life of the blade..
But long story short the hollowing of the back side (which would face the piece being cut) is not a "hollow ground " profile the way the normal European/western world would define a hollow grind
Mr Carter him self pointed out the "hair" line flat area around the hollow portion which was forged not ground ..
@@Kmurray9244 Thanks for your explanation. I would love to have had the opportunity to be in the same room with Murray Carter as he displayed his handiwork and have the opportunity to handle and ask questions about it.
I can sometimes agree but am mostly with your information on those with Right Brain - Left Handed perfection. As someone who handwrites and fires long guns on the Left, while plays sports and handguns on the right preference, I remain mostly confuzzelated. At many points in my feeble attempts to break 100 in golf, I wondered if I should have taken up that game from the left.
@@billm.2677 😂 I will apologize..
It's hard to articulate on text at work...
And my texting is lac luster at best ( gibberish Is the norm) ..
In short, the video you provided was a beautiful demonstration of how to hone a very specific japanese style knife and has absolutely no bearing or benefit to your passion for a convex hone..
🤷♂️
My polite way of saying "you completely misunderstood" the principal and use of the hone, and more importantly the methodology.
Apparently the new Dovo razors are made from blank's that Dovo get from a German company that provides most of the blanks for the German razor industry.
Dovo no longer makes their own blanks .
The new razors have the Dovo name laser etched.
The old blank's were forged in house & the name was stamped into the tang.
I have two Dovo razors currently in my possession and the older one with the name stamped into the tang is great.
The new one is awful & I only keep it because it was a gift.
Thanks for watching. In my opinion, the market for straight razors is unlikely to rebound enough for production manufacturers of straight razors to ever make economic sense to resume in-house forging. I have seen old videos of Dovo razor making where the forging was part of the process they did. I have much interest in this sort of thing.
they have never forged their own blanks and they have only bought them from the current forge supplier for 40+ yrs
your older razor with the stamped tang, unless it is from the
@@thesuperiorshave
Thanks for that clarification.
@@billm.2677 yes, those closeups of the hot steels being hammered in to the dies are always from the Solingen forges, dunno why German blacksmiths and grinders have always been separate but they certainly have. In Thiers, where the certain pocket knife 'laguiole' is a cultural importance, it is not uncommon for small grinders to also do their own forging (though multiple forges still exist in Thiers and still make blanks for such knives, too), but not Germany.
In fact I would not be shocked to find out for some of the models that the forging dies they smack upon are the same ones from many decades ago. Same forge, same dies, only the workers changed, and where they get their raw steel (which today is admittedly quite inferior to yesteryear because they can no longer get flat sheets, they get long bails of raw steel and roll them out, flat from birth is better but apparently gone from this Earth for the 52100 recipe + quantity + cost combo they can obtain from the world steel market).
Differencial curve honing is the very essence of convex honing in my opinion.
Without it the results can only reach a certain point.
For the second step i found a coticule gave me the best results
I have one coticule on a 3’ radius that I have been using more and more these days. My skill level could never access the capability to make it a finisher, but it does cut fast. It makes me want to run out for one more easily suited to that task. I do find coticules much easier to shape than Arkansas and easier to maintain than synthetics.
@@billm.2677 yes coticules are quite easy to shape..i use mine on a 7m curve and i finish with a surgical black ark shaped on the long axis of the Jarrod plate..coticules are awesome so as not to cut too fast at the front of the bevel.
I have seen Jarrod use them as finishers in convex honing.
@@riverrazors7915
I have seen a coticule he likes and regularly uses at that second step on I believe the same curvature as yours.
One day I may try to make one, but he has an early ABS 3D printed plate with that dimension. It was considered to be off spec to design. I did learn that some angling in the use of the finish stone can sufficient blend those differences.
@@billm.2677 i tried printing these plates and its not easy, it’s actually really complicated to print and abs at the scale likes to warp.
@@riverrazors7915 The warp off of the plot is what gave him those ‘defective’ plates. Wish I would have bought one.