I've included my references below. I would also like to address a criticism of this video. According to atheists, atheism is not a religion. I've repeatedly emphasized how this puts atheists at a disadvantage because they do not necessarily have institutional power. However, this video could technically support atheism if it were a religion (to clarify: if it had the same institutional force as theism does with organized religion). Atheists should then see this less as an attack on their belief structure and more as an analysis of the advantages of having a large institutional force. If atheists had one, perhaps they could outdo theism on this front, but they do not. I welcome the competition. 1) Baier, C. J., & Wright, B. R. E. (2001). “If You Love Me, Keep My Commandments”: A Meta-Analysis of the Effect of Religion on Crime. Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency, 38(1), 3-21. doi.org/10.1177/0022427801038001001 2) Berk, L. E. (2018). Development through the lifespan (7th ed.). Pearson Education, Inc. 3) Kelly, P. E., Polanin, J. R., Jang, S. J., & Johnson, B. R. (2015). Religion, Delinquency, and Drug Use: A Meta-Analysis. Criminal Justice Review, 40(4), 505-523. doi.org/10.1177/0734016815605151 4) Li, K.-K., & Chow, W.-Y. (2015). Religiosity/spirituality and prosocial behaviors among Chinese Christian adolescents: The mediating role of values and gratitude. Psychology of Religion and Spirituality, 7(2), 150-161. doi.org/10.1037/a0038294 5) Nelson, J. M., Hardy, S. A., & Watkins, P. (2023). Transcendent indebtedness to God: A new construct in the psychology of religion and spirituality. Psychology of Religion and Spirituality, 15(1), 105-117. doi.org/10.1037/rel0000458.supp 6) Scuipac, E.P. & Schwadel, P. (2020). US Teens Take After Their Parents Religiously, Attend Services Together and Enjoy Family Rituals. Pew Research Center pewrsr.ch/2RcIF83 7) Shariff, A. F., Willard, A. K., Andersen, T., & Norenzayan, A. (2016). Religious Priming: A Meta-Analysis With a Focus on Prosociality. Personality and Social Psychology Review, 20(1), 27-48. doi.org/10.1177/1088868314568811 8) Shariff, A. F., & Rhemtulla, M. (2012). Divergent effects of beliefs in heaven and hell on national crime rates. PloS one, 7(6), e39048. 9) Shepperd, J.A., Miller, W.A. and Smith, C.T. (2015), Religiousness and aggression in adolescents: The mediating roles of self-control and compassion. Aggr. Behav., 41: 608-621. doi.org/10.1002/ab.21600 10) Shigenori, T. (2015). Multi-Dimensional Religiosity and Volunteering in Contemporary Taiwan: Analyses of the Taiwan Social Change Survey. Asian Journal of Social Science, 43(4), 466-487. www.jstor.org/stable/43953935 11) Smith, G. A. (2021). About Three-in-Ten U.S. Adults Are Now Religiously Unaffiliated. Pew Research Center 12) Speed, D., & Edgell, P. (2023). Eternally Damned, Yet Socially Conscious? The Volunteerism of Canadian Atheists. Sociology of Religion, 84(3), 265-291. doi-org.csi.ezproxy.cuny.edu/10.1093/socrel/srac035
I feel this research is incomplete as currently presented. Most of the data appears to have been taken from the US and/or Canada, but the US is a state where religion is the modality accepted by the majority of the population of course a lot of the opportunities for pro-social behaviour and the organisational structure is going to have a religious framework more often than not. There is not evidence here to suggest that in a state where atheism is the most common modality, structures that fulfill the same social roles won't develop. There is good reason to think that since a secular organisation has the capability to be religiously agnostic and could therefore incorporate religious individuals from any distinct religion, therefore such an organisation should perform better in the role. Has any sociology been done around how these metrics and trends hold up in countries such as the scandinavian countries? These would be much more compelling indicators one way or another, since the null hypothesis would be taken by most to be that religious belief deters delinquency, good empiricism would demand we attempt to disprove it and look at scenarios where religiosity is a minor contributor to pro-social behaviour. Additionally your case is much less compelling as you have not linked your sources. First of all this is a bit of a faux pas, your arguments and conclusions are dependent on their work so they deserve reasonable credit. But also it creates an unnecessary barrier for fact-checking and critique, people need to be able to read the articles themselves in order to check your understanding is an accurate and complete representation of the body of work presented, as well as to check the methodologies and interpretations of the studies used are reasonable and can be taken to accurately represent ground truth. Finally whilst the video states that the truth value of such claims is outside of it's purview that doesn't stop it from being relevant. The video draws a conclusion that religion is a net positive and has an end screen displaying the crucifixion so a reasonable person will infer that this is intended to act as an argument for religion. But net positive affects of religion even if experimentally verified beyond reasonable doubt would not be able to work as a reasonable argument for religion. One cannot just choose to believe something in spite of knowing that there is a lack of evidence for it and good evidence, though not to the level of being definitive as the claims can be made unfalsifiable, against it. Even if someone accepted your argument here as true and other factors such as community fragmentation, increased proclivity to war due to out-group identifiers, enabling of anti-science rhetoric hampering technological and societal development, etc were negligable effects in comparison to individual moral leanings, it still wouldn't make them capable of believing religion. It'd just encourage them to baby those incapable of coming to the realisation that religion is in all likelihood false into continuing to believe in the same way we do with santa to children. To me that doesn't seem moral, given that religion is in all likelihood false we should be honest with people and take accountability by doing the work to create structures grounded in truth which can achieve the same or greater positive effect.
It is currently incomplete as currently presented. You are correct (this is the beginning of a series of videos). I will post all of my citations, but I did show each of the journal articles that I was referencing including the titles and authors.
All this "Jesus forgives" stuff undermines that imo. Nothing really matters as long as the law doesn't hear about it and you pray hard enough next Sunday. The old Egyptian idea of weighing the heart (and all its good and ills) against the feather of truth seems better. You can't escape that, just have to do your best to uphold ma'at and hope for the best in the hereafter.
This is mostly a protestant problem in Christianity, seeing as the movement was built on removing responsibility on the individual. For example, in the Cathlic, Orthodox, or Coptic parts of Christendom, confession and repentance come with the consequences of the action that was committed. You don't see that in the protestant movements.
@@Nicholaswonderwork One might argue the exact opposite, saying that confession to a priest and doing penance deters repentance; you don't need to turn away from your sin, just confess and say a few Hail Marys, and you are forgiven, after all, why would God be interested in a repentant heart if empty outward actions can mask the inward stagnation? Note that I am not saying this is necessarily the case with traditions that include non-corporate confession of sin, I am merely pointing out that the opposite conclusion can easily be drawn from the same observation. I will also add that plenty of protestant churches practice church disciple. Those churches in the reformed tradition see the application of church discipline, along with the pure preaching of the word and the right administration of the sacraments, of being the hallmarks of a true institutional ecclesia. I am saddened to say that many churches who's confessions state this does not themselves apply discipline, but then again these so-called churches also tend to not preach the word of God purely, nor administer the sacraments regularly.
@uilspieel99 Confession to an ordained priest is a sacrement due to this status a person that is outside of the church like most sacrements struggle to understand its spiritual benefit and effect like for example the Eucharist that is the literal body and blood of our Savior. Someone outside of the church would struggle to understand how it is possible and how it has the power for the remission of sins.
@@Nicholaswonderwork I realise that the following might come across as harsh, but please take it in the spirit it was intended, and hopefully we may both benefit from this exchange as iron sharpens iron. The only sacraments are those ordained by Christ, that being the Lord's Supper and Baptism. To place the works of man on the same level as the works of God is, quite frankly, blasphemous. Calling those who disagree "outside the church" does not hide the fact that equating man to God is idolatry of the worst kind, and the very reason for the fall. While your espoused theology does not outright proclaim it's idolatry, it does entail it as a logically necessary consequence. *If this is not the case, please explain how*. Thankfully, the scriptures teach us that we are not saved by theological sophistication, but by grace through faith in Christ to the glory of God alone. I am curious though, when you say that the Lord's Supper is literally the body and blood of Christ, do you mean that the physical substance (i.e. the molecular make-up of the bread and wine) are changed, or do you of the substance in some other sense, such as the substance of page filled with nonsense words being different from the substance of letter to a loved one?
@uilspieel99 before I reply with an answer are you by any chance dutch reformed? I am assuming due to your germanic sounding user name and admiration of reformed tradition?
I've included my references below. I would also like to address a criticism of this video. According to atheists, atheism is not a religion. I've repeatedly emphasized how this puts atheists at a disadvantage because they do not necessarily have institutional power. However, this video could technically support atheism if it were a religion (to clarify: if it had the same institutional force as theism does with organized religion). Atheists should then see this less as an attack on their belief structure and more as an analysis of the advantages of having a large institutional force. If atheists had one, perhaps they could outdo theism on this front, but they do not. I welcome the competition.
1) Baier, C. J., & Wright, B. R. E. (2001). “If You Love Me, Keep My Commandments”: A Meta-Analysis of the Effect of Religion on Crime. Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency, 38(1), 3-21. doi.org/10.1177/0022427801038001001
2) Berk, L. E. (2018). Development through the lifespan (7th ed.). Pearson Education, Inc.
3) Kelly, P. E., Polanin, J. R., Jang, S. J., & Johnson, B. R. (2015). Religion, Delinquency, and Drug Use: A Meta-Analysis. Criminal Justice Review, 40(4), 505-523. doi.org/10.1177/0734016815605151
4) Li, K.-K., & Chow, W.-Y. (2015). Religiosity/spirituality and prosocial behaviors among Chinese Christian adolescents: The mediating role of values and gratitude. Psychology of Religion and Spirituality, 7(2), 150-161. doi.org/10.1037/a0038294
5) Nelson, J. M., Hardy, S. A., & Watkins, P. (2023). Transcendent indebtedness to God: A new construct in the psychology of religion and spirituality. Psychology of Religion and Spirituality, 15(1), 105-117. doi.org/10.1037/rel0000458.supp
6) Scuipac, E.P. & Schwadel, P. (2020). US Teens Take After Their Parents Religiously, Attend Services Together and Enjoy Family Rituals. Pew Research Center pewrsr.ch/2RcIF83
7) Shariff, A. F., Willard, A. K., Andersen, T., & Norenzayan, A. (2016). Religious Priming: A Meta-Analysis With a Focus on Prosociality. Personality and Social Psychology Review, 20(1), 27-48. doi.org/10.1177/1088868314568811
8) Shariff, A. F., & Rhemtulla, M. (2012). Divergent effects of beliefs in heaven and hell on national crime rates. PloS one, 7(6), e39048.
9) Shepperd, J.A., Miller, W.A. and Smith, C.T. (2015), Religiousness and aggression in adolescents: The mediating roles of self-control and compassion. Aggr. Behav., 41: 608-621. doi.org/10.1002/ab.21600
10) Shigenori, T. (2015). Multi-Dimensional Religiosity and Volunteering in Contemporary Taiwan: Analyses of the Taiwan Social Change Survey. Asian Journal of Social Science, 43(4), 466-487. www.jstor.org/stable/43953935
11) Smith, G. A. (2021). About Three-in-Ten U.S. Adults Are Now Religiously Unaffiliated. Pew Research Center
12) Speed, D., & Edgell, P. (2023). Eternally Damned, Yet Socially Conscious? The Volunteerism of Canadian Atheists. Sociology of Religion, 84(3), 265-291. doi-org.csi.ezproxy.cuny.edu/10.1093/socrel/srac035
God Bless you brother 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
I feel this research is incomplete as currently presented. Most of the data appears to have been taken from the US and/or Canada, but the US is a state where religion is the modality accepted by the majority of the population of course a lot of the opportunities for pro-social behaviour and the organisational structure is going to have a religious framework more often than not. There is not evidence here to suggest that in a state where atheism is the most common modality, structures that fulfill the same social roles won't develop. There is good reason to think that since a secular organisation has the capability to be religiously agnostic and could therefore incorporate religious individuals from any distinct religion, therefore such an organisation should perform better in the role. Has any sociology been done around how these metrics and trends hold up in countries such as the scandinavian countries? These would be much more compelling indicators one way or another, since the null hypothesis would be taken by most to be that religious belief deters delinquency, good empiricism would demand we attempt to disprove it and look at scenarios where religiosity is a minor contributor to pro-social behaviour.
Additionally your case is much less compelling as you have not linked your sources. First of all this is a bit of a faux pas, your arguments and conclusions are dependent on their work so they deserve reasonable credit. But also it creates an unnecessary barrier for fact-checking and critique, people need to be able to read the articles themselves in order to check your understanding is an accurate and complete representation of the body of work presented, as well as to check the methodologies and interpretations of the studies used are reasonable and can be taken to accurately represent ground truth.
Finally whilst the video states that the truth value of such claims is outside of it's purview that doesn't stop it from being relevant. The video draws a conclusion that religion is a net positive and has an end screen displaying the crucifixion so a reasonable person will infer that this is intended to act as an argument for religion. But net positive affects of religion even if experimentally verified beyond reasonable doubt would not be able to work as a reasonable argument for religion. One cannot just choose to believe something in spite of knowing that there is a lack of evidence for it and good evidence, though not to the level of being definitive as the claims can be made unfalsifiable, against it. Even if someone accepted your argument here as true and other factors such as community fragmentation, increased proclivity to war due to out-group identifiers, enabling of anti-science rhetoric hampering technological and societal development, etc were negligable effects in comparison to individual moral leanings, it still wouldn't make them capable of believing religion. It'd just encourage them to baby those incapable of coming to the realisation that religion is in all likelihood false into continuing to believe in the same way we do with santa to children. To me that doesn't seem moral, given that religion is in all likelihood false we should be honest with people and take accountability by doing the work to create structures grounded in truth which can achieve the same or greater positive effect.
It is currently incomplete as currently presented. You are correct (this is the beginning of a series of videos). I will post all of my citations, but I did show each of the journal articles that I was referencing including the titles and authors.
All this "Jesus forgives" stuff undermines that imo. Nothing really matters as long as the law doesn't hear about it and you pray hard enough next Sunday. The old Egyptian idea of weighing the heart (and all its good and ills) against the feather of truth seems better. You can't escape that, just have to do your best to uphold ma'at and hope for the best in the hereafter.
This is mostly a protestant problem in Christianity, seeing as the movement was built on removing responsibility on the individual. For example, in the Cathlic, Orthodox, or Coptic parts of Christendom, confession and repentance come with the consequences of the action that was committed. You don't see that in the protestant movements.
@@Nicholaswonderwork One might argue the exact opposite, saying that confession to a priest and doing penance deters repentance; you don't need to turn away from your sin, just confess and say a few Hail Marys, and you are forgiven, after all, why would God be interested in a repentant heart if empty outward actions can mask the inward stagnation? Note that I am not saying this is necessarily the case with traditions that include non-corporate confession of sin, I am merely pointing out that the opposite conclusion can easily be drawn from the same observation.
I will also add that plenty of protestant churches practice church disciple. Those churches in the reformed tradition see the application of church discipline, along with the pure preaching of the word and the right administration of the sacraments, of being the hallmarks of a true institutional ecclesia. I am saddened to say that many churches who's confessions state this does not themselves apply discipline, but then again these so-called churches also tend to not preach the word of God purely, nor administer the sacraments regularly.
@uilspieel99 Confession to an ordained priest is a sacrement due to this status a person that is outside of the church like most sacrements struggle to understand its spiritual benefit and effect like for example the Eucharist that is the literal body and blood of our Savior. Someone outside of the church would struggle to understand how it is possible and how it has the power for the remission of sins.
@@Nicholaswonderwork I realise that the following might come across as harsh, but please take it in the spirit it was intended, and hopefully we may both benefit from this exchange as iron sharpens iron.
The only sacraments are those ordained by Christ, that being the Lord's Supper and Baptism. To place the works of man on the same level as the works of God is, quite frankly, blasphemous. Calling those who disagree "outside the church" does not hide the fact that equating man to God is idolatry of the worst kind, and the very reason for the fall. While your espoused theology does not outright proclaim it's idolatry, it does entail it as a logically necessary consequence. *If this is not the case, please explain how*.
Thankfully, the scriptures teach us that we are not saved by theological sophistication, but by grace through faith in Christ to the glory of God alone.
I am curious though, when you say that the Lord's Supper is literally the body and blood of Christ, do you mean that the physical substance (i.e. the molecular make-up of the bread and wine) are changed, or do you of the substance in some other sense, such as the substance of page filled with nonsense words being different from the substance of letter to a loved one?
@uilspieel99 before I reply with an answer are you by any chance dutch reformed? I am assuming due to your germanic sounding user name and admiration of reformed tradition?