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From those examples I would guess that you must be too young for the original iteration of this trope in cartoons as the Power Puff girls in 1998. Which was for a while was one of the most immediately recognisable exports of American culture, not just in terms of animation but PPG managed to be a meme in a pre-web 2.0 world. I'm sure there are other examples of well written female characters in animated kids shows before 1998 but in terms of where that idea that it's common to have strong, female and feminine heroes in kids animated shows goes Blossom, Bubbles, and Buttercup are as good a place to start as any.
@@TheChickenRiceBowl That was not my intention at all, it was just meant to be context for people who might otherwise be unaware that a thing exists or of how big a deal it was at the time.
Rosalyn Robinson She was written that way. Legally Blonde and Miss Congeniality were written in a time similar to ours when women were being contextually shamed back into “acting feminine.”
@@ARosethatBloomsinEarlyMay omg I love Jennifer Tilly shes so freaking perfect in every role she plays in (I love her as an actress not in person by the way)
The reason directors believe that is society reinforces this stereotype where vulnerability is associated with femininity. If you ask me, being emotionally vulnerable also requires a certain type of strength "toughness"
I love the explanation of things. The "tough girl" trope is only a problem when that's her only defining quality. If a characters one and only defining trait is that they're "strong" they're boring, male or female. I feel like a lot of writers/directors think that if they have a woman punch stuff and beat the bad guy the female audience will automatically love and admire her.... not so much.
Laura B I agree with you. So that’s why they need a lot more voices in the room to tell them otherwise. When tv shows and movies do the same things over and over it’s because they are the only ones in the room- no inclusion and no diversity
Exactly, there needs to be FAR more to her than just simply being tough, or else she risks just being a walking stereotype. Beatrix Kiddo from "Kill Bill" could be the definitive example, as she was propelled to start her killing spree after her life was ruined.
There does, but i think you also need enough other fleshed out women around her that she's not responsible for being The Woman, or even The Woman Who's Not Like Other Girls. One of the things i think films like fury road and fast color got right is that there are multiple significant femme characters, so each can be powerful and flawed in her own way and they can help define each other simply by existing in the same space. I think it's also worth noting that we're a lot more willing to accept an idealized paragon character if that character has gonads. James bond doesn't have a lot of backstory, and his flaws are basically that he's violent, sexually aggressive to the point of predation, and emotionally unavailable, which are selling points in some audiences. Yet he's still held audience attention for 25 films. Captain america's flaws mostly come down to being stubborn and absolutely convinced of his own rightness (which his films usually support), but he too is rarely if ever decried as too perfect.
@Just a thought That is largely because there is a double standard. It is apparently totally okay for a male lead to be a paragon of whatever virtue is desired in any given era, but as soon as you put a female power fantasy on screen you can bet that this stupid Mary Sue nonsense starts again. Contrary to popular believe it is not just about the character, it is about the whole package, meaning you can easily have a virtuous character as long as said character fits the story you want to tell. In pretty much every single movie which didn't work for the audience, the problem was the OVERALL writing, not specifically the writing of this one character. But certain people just love to blame it on the female lead for their outrage machine.
Black widow really deserves more depth than what they gave her initially, the fact that they made us love her so much in Endgame just to kill her off was so cruel. If they can make her show the same level of emotion in that movie like she did in that single scene I’ll be happy
empty shogun she definitely has but a lot of her character progression has been done behind the scenes. Like it was never front and center like say iron man or captain America, you see? Hell even the hulk got his character arc front and Centre but we’ve never gotten the same for black widow.
Literally why wonder woman has been my favorite superhero since I was 7. Punches superman across a room, goes on a shopping spree, debates batman in philosophy, then goes outside just to smell a flower.
The Transformers movie is probably one of the worst offenders of this. The framing of Megan Fox in the movie signified that her value is in her being sexy all the while she's talking about how men don't like how she knows more about cars than they do. The framing didn't match the dialogue at all, but that's Michael Bay for you.
@@RubyRobbins88 Ironically, in real life many have Michael Bay's glasses on when interacting with good looking people, especially women (regardless of attire).
I found it funny how in that part, they were showing Angelina Jolie in the shower as if to emphasize that, but it also had Daniel Craig topless and if I remember correctly the movie shows his backside too. So... that movie sexually opjectified both of them, which I am completely okay with! More equal oppurtinity objectification!
@@u770017 you have totally missed the point. a cool girl is an unrealistic female character created by a socially inept man, a cool girl could be anything - she doesn't have to seek approval. watch the takes video on it :)
@@satan9228 It's not created by socially inept men, it's created by writes men and women who just need a side character. There is also the male tropes too.
It was crazy to see all the Wonder Woman backlash after Captain Marvel's release. So many people were accusing Diana of being "weak" because she was "feminine".
Valid Her “feminine” was every female stereotype in the book and her “personality” was being crazy about babies and men. She doesn’t have a personality.
@@EverintheRising Her being naive despite being a part of the "born sexy yesterday" trope in does more for the story than people give it credit to. The whole story is based around it. Personality? She's compassionate and understanding, curious and adventurous. I believe people start this claims more because they themselves see the displays of femininity from wonder woman as weak and see Captain Marvel as response to that. But I feel Carol Danvers lacks more personality than Diana since she's pretty much perfect and none of her flaws (the obvious ones and non-obvious ones) are not discussed. Also the directors and writers sucked.
Nobody has ever accused Diana as weak. What some people DID say (and rightly so) is that Diana is the kind of "strong female character" which comes with a lot of appeasement for the male audience, while Captain Marvel doesn't bother with holding the male audience's hand, quite the opposite. That doesn't make Diana a worse character, but it explains (among other things) why the Anti-SJWs had a harder time to steer up hatred against Diana compared to Carol.
who is generally the demographic for action type movies that have the tough girl? Is it men or women? (yes, I'm generalizing) Wouldn't it make sense to create characters that are appealing to your target demographic? I think people forget the point of movies is to generate capital, not to be a biopic on modern society. that's why the leads in movies are usually attractive.
Part of the issue here is the fact that this is entertainment not real life representation. Men like to see sexually appealing women kicking butt, much like women enjoy seeing highly attractive men in action sequences as well.
Spot on about the burden of representing her entire sex when she's the only female in a group. That's always frustrated me, the whole token female thing. Even if we don't mean to, I think many viewers may subconsciously see the lone female as the ambassador of all females, so instead of just representing herself and no one else, she takes on the hopeless task (or rather, is dealt the task by the writers/some of the audience) of representing all women at once. There was some of this talk around Black Panther. One of the things the movie has going for it is that it has a pretty diverse range of female characters, from scientists to intelligence officers to generals, so that each can inhabit their own traits and roles in the story without being defined first and foremost by their sex. (And having it be commonplace to have a wider range of female characters in one movie _sounds_ like it should be so simple and easy to do, but clearly not, as evidenced by the many films where there's usually only one female speaking role in a film where gender wouldn't make a difference.🙄)
"She's All That" was the first one that came to mind. Most of the "ugly ducklings" weren't even ugly, just a pretty girl with glasses and/or ugly clothes like Tiny Grimes said.
I think theres more to it than just the pretty girl who's "ugly" because they wear glasses. I wanna know what their take is for female leads who play that kind of girl that actually dont meet generic standards of attractiveness such as The Duff or Sierra Burgess. Imo both movies teach girls that are like them that they can appreciate every quality about themselves in which they excel EXCEPT for their looks/physical appearance
@@Tima-oz5te glasses can be cute especially on guys. honestly look at IT and Richie & Stand By Me w/ Teddy Duchamp. both young men are so handsome especially w/ glasses. plus neither were "nerds" both were funny, charismatic characters
I always hated that trope because it made me super disappointed when I never had the glow up that I was promised. It made me wonder if I was doing something wrong. I never even had glasses to take off, and straightening my hair just makes it look flat lol
When this trope is done right the characters it can produce are amazing and some of the most real and human characters you can get but when it's done wrong you almost hate those characters and takes away from your enjoyment of the film/show.
Precisely, the Tough Girls needs to feel as real and authentic a person as possible, otherwise she could come off as cliched, a walking stereotype, or a desperate attempt to pander to your female audience.
@@trinaq you're so right especially when that character is made for wish fulfillment then actually the plot of the story I believe its insulting to the women they're trying to represent.
@Tim Evans Dude What are you talkin about? People hate Sansa because of her own actions in the story she's not a likeable character she sold out her family got many people killed sold out her brother when he trusted her with the biggest secret of his life for power she is just given power not by her own actions but by luck of birth and absolutely no one has a problem with her being feminine her mother Kat was one of the strongest characters in the story and possibly the most feminine so miss me with that crap logic btw sansa watched thousands of loyal soldiers die in the battle of the bastards just so she could hold that over Jon's head later on to feel like she did something and as soon as he becomes King she immediately starts undermining his authority and questioning him out loud in front of everyone she's been around enough powerful people to know that is a conversation to be had in private and the reason why people like Arya isn't because she threw away traditional femininity it's because when her feet were to the fire she stood by and protected her family even before she was a powerful warrior when they were both little girls in kings landing (they both grew up in the same house but she is the only stark child to continuously choose outsiders over her family thats what got her direwolf lady killed)she stood by her brother when no one else would that's staying loyal Sansa didn't have that trait and she knew what her brother was doing is right but she just wanted power if a male character was this hated you would say most likely agree so it seems you don't respect women enough and think they're strong enough to be held accountable for their own actions. I believe even most women would agree that she isn't a good person (I also think a lot of this also stems from Sophie Turner's acting) check your bias. while I do think John wasn't the brightest character he was the only honorable man in a very dishonorable world so his decision Ned Stark's decision seemed very foreign to people who value honor and I do think the show went out of it's way to portray john as dumb and woefully incompetent.
Yep a bad female character (and the actress) get a lot of hate like you said, even harassed off social media, but when male characters aren't real or authentic, no one cares or calls them a walking stereotype or a Mary Sue. This is why we need more representation. Female characters should be allowed the same range that we give male ones.
@@1amissingno absolutely they need a variety of voices in the writers room they need difference of opinion because I think this usually happens when you have one person making all the decisions and we start seeing someone's idea what a woman should be or an idealized version of what they want women to be when most people just want a human character to relate to and they make these characters so unrelatable. But I also believe that there are a lot of male characters who are criticized for being overpowered or for bad acting but when those criticisms are levied they won't be called sexist misogynist so I think the conversation around bad male characters can be a bit more healthy and isn't as exasperated. when it comes to female characters.
As a young Black woman, this video really resonates with me on a different level due to the prevalence of the “strong black woman” trope. Thank you so much for this well-thought out analysis. 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 This is my favorite channel on UA-cam! 😁
@@u770017 Don Draper is an aging insecure man with sex addiction, James Bond too, kind of every Clint Eastwood type of character really so yeah they got a point
We don't have to completely write off the "masculine" tough girl -- that's a personality type that EXISTS (and the non-feminine, yet non-butch character is someone I will always relate to) -- but the real problem is that stories lack a diverse range of female characters, so these tough girls carry the story's "female representation." And you covered that beautifully.
Beatrix was tough far before Bill shot her. She has lots of backstory showing how she became tough before the incident out of her own will and desire to be a better fighter/assasin. O-Ren could be an example of what you're talking about, but on the whole the many female characters in Kill Bill are diverse, unique and interesting in their own ways, most especially Beatrix. All of the female characters have some stereotypically masculine traits through their fighting prowess, ability to be stone cold, etc., but they all also have their own traditionally feminine traits as well (as is the case with every human). Vernita loves her life as a wife and mother and wants to leave her old life behind. Elle pines for Bill's attention and is furiously jealous of Beatrix. O-Ren presents wearing beautiful kimonos and wielding a pretty feminine sword, and expresses genuine empathy and remorse toward Beatrix during their final fight. And Beatrix's love for the child she is carrying eclipses all of her other desires and priorities; in some ways, her role as a mother is the most important driving force behind her character. The characters feel like people before they feel like women, which is the gold standard of female depiction in media. Please don't reduce The Bride's masterful and nuanced characterization down to a trope.
its not just the Bride either. I've noticed this about the Take, they like to cherry pick, while ignoring anything about characterization of their examples that contradicts their claims.
But they didn't.......? They cited The Bride as a nuanced character and listed one of the reasons why they think so. They might've not gone in-depth for time.
Sure, but my point was that the video frames uma thurman as this tough girl who became tough because of the loss of her baby, but she was already tough before
@300bpm At no point was she tough and skilled for the right reasons. She only wanted revenge for what was directly done to her and perceivably, her child. She never vowed to be a good person or turn away from evil, She simply wanted revenge. She had no idea that BB was alive and harbored no desire to help or change the world that she herself helped to create. Theres no arc. There was no transformation. She was the same person she always was. The same character (plus a bit of scarring) from beginning to end. That is not what you call a character arc.
@@matttheamerican3766 I think you are mistaken. her exact transformation happens when she _doesn't_ kill Bill, because yes, she didn't kill him. It all came down to her changing her ways. She was saying how once she found out that she was pregnant she couldn't continue being an assassin anymore. But she thought she lost her child. And of course she wanted revenge. But once she found out her daughter was alive she was still very angry with Bill, because she felt betrayed, but she understood that she doesn't want her daughter to grow up in a world where killing is the norm, it all solidifies with the story that Bill told her of how she killed the fish that she stepped on. She wants her to grow up away from violence. so she doesn't proceed with her plan. Bill in fact doesn't die at the end
Maybe we should forget Strength as masculine and Caringness as feminine qualities and relearn both as human qualities. This dual way of thinking might hold the divide longer.
I really like how you guys use all types of movies, it really shows how we grow up with stereotypes and they are present throughout our lives!! This whole series is very eye opening and interesting, really makes us see just how deep the male dominance is present in our society. And while not condemning any of these movies, it’s always good to have a more critical view of them
Funny Little Frog no u shut up the reason beginning is because that’s what’s puts asses in the seats...women are a huge draw in media...just look at what sales action historically male dominated...sex historically male dominated... ur just mad because your not a man...but don’t worry they have procedures so you can pretend now...men are content being men women (modern) aren’t content period until the finally figure out that womanhood is about complimenting men not competing with them...these are just facts
Ben Wasserman I was missing the first three seasons on DVD and, got them for Xmas! I know the show is streaming but, whatever they did with color, hue, tone is completely off compared to the original airing or the DVD’s. I know it’s old school but, I love the original look and, intention of the show.
Do one about the Crazy Ex-Grilfriend trope, can use Charlize Theron's character in Young Adult, and Evan Rachel Wood in Pretty Persuasian and Rebecca Bunch
Will Atkins Charlize Theron in Young Adult was so incredible. Such a train wreck of a character but I just couldn’t look away. I also love that by the end of the movie she really hasn’t learned much of anything. Usually that would be a flaw but in that particular case I thought it was much more true to life.
There are so many films I can’t watch because the female character doesn’t feel like a human, but rather how men want us to behave. We have to fight for everything :/
shee thruu straight up as a chick it’s hard not to notice, cause that’s the only person you’re given in the movie who looks like you and you can relate to more personally. Lara Croft in the Angelina Jolie movies. In some of the games she’s way cooler but in those movies you could tell very much that she was there to be attractive eye candy. Electra in Daredevil. She’s got the personality of wet cardboard, and is knife wielding eye candy. A lot of female anime characters as well, which isn’t surprising considering a lot of anime is made by men. I mean I’m trying to think of examples but the characters are just so forgettable it’s hard.
@@fridam2022 All the Marvel movies are examples. The female characters are sickeningly one-dimensional. Black Widow/Natasha has no essence. They exist to look good on screen or have one or two sexy sequences. The only ounce of personality we got to see was when she sacrificed herself in the final film. The role of females in Marvel films is diluted to just clever and sarcastic dialogue without any character development. Who the hell is Black Widow? Who is Natasha Romanov? What drives her? What are her core beliefs? What does she believe in? Good question because the MCU tried to cram all of those answers into half of Endgame.
i would also like morally grey female characters who aren't super hot too. or even morally good ones. just average looking female actors getting good roles please and thank you 👍🏽
also can we have some buff female characters please? so much superhero media and they are all still stick thin people. i mean, i say this cos im gay AND cos it makes sense
@@oof-wi7hp honestly big agree like ik buff women kinda perpetuates the "women needing to be as tough as men to be considered strong" thing but sometimes we just wanna see...buff women...........
I agree with the need of new strong women i.e. Mad Max: Fury Road. That movie actually shows what real life men call a strong woman. Believe it or not men do talk about their favorite female action stars and Furioso comes up alot. And the reason we give is she never gets on a soap box about being strong as any man, she just does the actions. Thus shutting the males that doubted her the fuck up. It happened in labor areas all the time.
the shame is that for her to "be valuable" she has to be in competition with opposing forces. Achieving, competing, overcoming and subduing are masculine energies. Let's praise women for their feminine energy, not everything is about putting an opponent down and winning. Feminine energy is about uniting and connecting, not defeating
both men and women have masculine and feminine energy. No one is saying men can't connect. I'm saying masculine traits are the only ones seen as powerful in female characters
Why is “cool and collected” and “logical” archetypes as a distinctly masculine trait? On more than one instance, it was stated that these descriptions are that of men. I understand historically male characters were the ones given those characteristics but doesn’t continuing to associate those traits with men make also place limits on female characters?
I'm guessing it has something to do with the emotional/irrational trait that is usually attributed to women. It directly opposes it. But I agree with you: men can be emotional, as women can be tough. Truth is modern society usually don't portrait these genders as such, hence (i guess) why stories and movies are generally not written with those associations in mind, as it would not be well received by the audiences. (sorry if my english isn't perfect)
because that's masculine energy. Both Men and women have masculine and feminine energy, being emotional is not bad, it's feminine energy. But society says it's bad to be warm and emotional instead of cool and logical.
@@Elven. maculine engery and femenine energy? That doesn't even exist. Do you even know what energy is? Men are typically more masculine and women more typically femenine. And even though some characteristics may seam to be linked somehow they don't necessarily are. Women can be cold and tough and still be very femenine in some ways. Or be emotional and caring and be more maculine in some other ways.
I was thinking of her throughout the video. She is such a fantastic role model. Her feminine qualities are portrayed as her strength. She isn't hyper sexualised. She wears generic flat work shoes for field work. I love her so, so much, even after all the years of having watched the show.
Thank you soooo much for highlighting that it’s important to value traditionally feminine traits and not demean them. You can be nurturing, loving, compassionate, creative, etc. and that doesn’t make you any less “strong”. There are different kinds of strengths. I’m sick of physical strength and aggression being valued.
Thanks, no thanks, for pushing the notion that those are "feminine" traits in the first place. The great thing about Fury Road is not that there are multiple women or the level of their "femininity", the great thing about it is that in this movie, women claim violence as something they can rightfully use, without needing any other excuse for it than "this is the world in which we life in, a world in which violence is the path to power, so we will use it".
@@swanpride what are you on about? My whole point is that traits that are thought to be traditionally feminine ARE NOT AUTOMATICALLY WEAK AND WRONG. Jesus fucking christ. But go ahead and be outraged for no reason. What i'm saying is, there is no one kind of strength in femininity or womanhood. You can be compassionate and be "strong". You can be the best sharp shooter and be "strong". And by strong I don't mean physical strength in case you're too slow to understand that.....which you seem to be. YIKES.
I love Buffy so much. She's feminine and tough but also had a lot of complexities to her story and feels like a real person. I'd love to see The Take make a video about the show or just Buffy has a character!
As cool as Ripley is a found Lambert interesting as well. I'm told Ridley Scott visualized her character as a Cassandra. Someone who knows, almost from the get-go that things are going to end very, very, badly, but is ignored. She knows the derelict is bad, but no one listens to her. Her unraveling as the movie progresses is because everything she was afraid of is coming to pass and it can't be stopped.
OMG I was hoping I'd see "The color purple" in this video. I was pleasantly surprised and I enjoyed the in depth observation of the "tough girl troup" Good Video Thanks!
This is such an elegant take down of filmboys accusations of "Mary-Sue". How do you manage to push the cinematic conversation left so delicately, without bruising their fragile egos? I love this channel ❤
@bissa You have to stop worrying about their fragile egos, be as direct as you can, let them know that they're wrong when they're wrong. Always be true to yourself, you may loose some friends but you'll feel much better about yourself and the new friends you gain will be so much more cool and your relationship with them will be stronger.
Except this video sums up what a lot of people criticise about "Mary Sues." That just being a "strong female character" isn't an acceptable stand-in for a well written character with complexity and nuance.
@@AdamRhodes536 actually i feel like the mary sue criticism has been hijacked by so many male nerds who cry at the sight of a female character simply existing that i don't trust it anymore. you are completely right. female characters deserve to be more than simply physically strong people - strong according to a limited male defined standard at that. but too many folks just scream "mary sue" at every capable female character and i am just. so fucking tired also plenty of male characters who are "strong" or "over-powered" and have no emotional depth otherwise exist in media, so why not women, ya know? the better direction would be to have female characters across the whole spectrum of tropes. that's what i look forward to atleast
The Matrix trilogy is literally FULL of tough women. Trinity is definitely not the only tough woman in that franchise. I actually thought they did a phenomenal job at bringing women to the forefront of the screen as equals in in all three films, which was surprisingly forward-thinking for its time and much needed.
This is one of the reasons why I love Sansa so much. She's beautiful and feminine and she's tough without violence. She never gets into physical fights or displays physical strength but she's strong in her own way. She's clever and a good strategist and she has gone through so much and come out on top without ever using weapons. She shows weakness and flaws. I love Sansa
@@vanferuli3 well the books ended around season 5 in terms of development of the story so at that point Jon Snow is still dead, Daenerys is still struggling with her dragons and Aria is still in training so it's not surprising the character of Sansa didn't had the chance to be developed yet
Agreed wholeheartedly. I never understood the criticism behind her. She adapted and played the Game of Thrones and survived. Great character even after all the vitriol over S8
I wonder, do you ever think it's problematic to perpetuate that certain characteristics are primarily feminine (such as compassion or hope) or masculine (strength and logic) in such an all-encompassing way? Like from a societal standpoint, that may be what is currently and more popularly associated with the gender, but by referencing them that way continually do you wonder if it's pigeon-holing those attributes too soon rather than expanding them to simply be characteristics of humanity?
also, i see si many people in these comments talking about female characters that are tough BUT they're also feminine, and it makes me kinda sad. i'm a pretty masculine person and as a girl i've really never been given special treatment for that (actually the opposite). i wish there were developed female characters that could have depth but still be masculine but it seems like no one wants to see that :/
there’s something called balance God Made men men and women women why is that so complicated??? men have a role women have a role physically and spiritually...there is a time for everything but for the most part things are a certain way for a reason...but for some reason people are abandoning their cultural ideologies for things they have yet to understand...you kno what would make women nowadays upset???....women watching women on screen doing historically women stuff...that would embarrass them...you realize you are here to be mothers daughters consultants wives predominantly????
I hated how in Infinity War and End Game they had these stupid scenes where all the women got together to fight and the movie made it so pandering and in your face. It just didn't come off genuine to me. I do really like Wanda though I think she is strong, layered and an interesting character. The scene where she fought Thanos was way better than the scene when Captain Marvel fought Thanos in my opinion.
Zeina Ian agree , most of the women in that scene doesn’t really even know each other. If there were just little scenes beforehand of some of the girls bonding or even just acknowledging each other, then maybe. But it just looked like the writers had an afterthought of ‘Oh shit, what if and stay with me here guys, the *women* save CM and easily kill all these soldiers that even some of the male avengers struggled to kill.’ 🙄
It was fan service to give all the women their due. I liked it. But of course it wasn’t realistic, you’re watching time travel with creatures from other worlds...
I want so badly to like Captain Marvel because she’s supposed to be “for me”, but she has the personality of wet cardboard. And I never realized Black Widow had any personality besides hot spy. Sucks that people can’t just write female characters like actual characters.
Fisticuffs Mate although i agree with CM having no personality, black widow had plenty of development in AOU, the winter soldier, and even civil war. it’s more subtle but her personality does shine through quite a lot.
When I first saw Wonder Woman I was disappointed by the sappy, love can cure all, ending. But watching this video, I wonder if I have been conditioned to think that way due to the way that media potrays strong women. They can only be fierce and brutal and tough, but not emotional and complex. I thought that by making Wonder Woman feel a human emotion at the end of the movie it bit away at her strong character and just made her into a "typical woman". I can definitely get behind the idea that we have been conditioned to feel that a woman cannot be both strong and feminine at the same time. I feel like House of Cards' Claire Underwood is a good representation of this. She is strong and resilient, but also humane and loving.
whenever I try to point this out to my friend when we're watching a movie with a "strong" female character he says something like "what so a female character can't be pretty?" or "she decides to wear revealing clothes, so what? a strong woman isn't defined by her clothes plus it was her choice" and I'm like dude, you don't get it
I just love how your friend values what you have to say and listens closely to your meaning rather than cherry picking the easiest interpretation to argue, ignoring everything else. /s
@@cockoffgewgle4993 It's actually not especially empowering at all to see a strong female character being undermind by catering to the "straight horny male gaze". So long as she fits into a very narrow view of youth, physical beauty and fitness standards, of course. It's very uncomfortable as a woman to notice that just about every movie, commercial, billboards etc. Encourage and rewards women who give up their dignity in order to titalate staight mens sex fantasies. I don't see that happening to men hardly ever. And even in movies that sexualise men a little bit, tend to do it to their female characters twice as much, and in a much more vulgar way than any male characters. It's disgusting. It makes it feel like our collective female personhood, our autonomy, our relatability as human beings with agency is being undermined in mass media so we can be alien sex objects for mens sexual consumption and nothing more. It feels creepy, threatening and supremely degrading. Like were basically sex objects to be bought from a store to be used like playthings and then thrown away like a used condom. I also attribute all the "Me too" stories to the public perception of womens roles in our society. Media is a tool for socialization and when women on screen are constantly being potrayed as sex objects, people do actually start treating women like their sex objects. Sex for women in particular can trap women in to a life of subservience and servitude in many different ways, if shes not careful. To say that it's our superpower is rediculas and false. That sounds like a poorly thought out statement of a straight male who wants to see tits basically.
"When we think about the strong female character maybe we should start focusing not on whether or not she can win fights but if her writing is good" YES!!! I"ve bee saying for years that when trying to create strong female writer get so wrapped up on the "stong" part and tryin to make them as flawless as possible they forget to make her a real person. Being a strong character doesn't just mean being a badass it also means be realistic and believable. There are physically strong Male characters that I would call strongly written but some of the strongest written Male character in media aren't exactly strong flawless or relatable themeselves. I'm just saying if we can have characters like Dexter Morgan, Jordan Belfort, Walter White and Tatsuhiro Satou be considered strong Characters why can't we have more characters like Rebecca Bunch, Jackie Peyton, Villanelle or Tomoko Kuroki who are strong characters but far from perfect or aspirational people.
I haven't seen the movie but I have a feeling this is what criticism of Captain Marvel was brought on by. That they made her strong for the sake of having a strong female example but without depth. And then u have ur everyday bigots complaining about feminism...
Personally though, I don't mind the "strong female characters" unless they're done right (and nowadays they hardly are). It would also help if people didn't make such a big deal about said character(s) being "strong" and "independent".
well when you've been regulated to the idea that you're weak and stupid for most of history, espcially in media. A few decades of making a deal out of it isn't such a bad thing. And I super disagree that good female characters aren't done well today. Most of them are. I honestly just think you haven't come to terms with your own biases yet.
@@brya9681 It was very good. It only felt like a silly rom com for one scene in the fourth quarter of the film but that was done in purpose. Some of the titular little women are warm, some are cunning. I like how they portrayed both masculine and extremely feminine women as strong. They all had their own hardships they had to overcome.
Wyldstyle receives a very good character arc in the second LEGO Movie that helps to flip this exact trope on its head. Idk how the writers at Warner Bros managed to make two (mostly) great movies out of a corporate cash grab idea but they did an astonishingly good job with the material they were given.
A lot of the same things can be said for the tough male characters. The flawed tough guy (Bruce Willis in Die Hard) or the tragic-back-story tough guy (Batman) are always more interesting and compelling to watch than the generic born-tough guy (most of Arnold Schwarzenegger's early roles), which are usually seen as more mindless entertainment.
Honestly i would prefer my daughter to look up to characters like ellen ripley over captain marvel or rey, ripley accepted her weaknesses and used her mind and will power to over come the odds.
That's the point. Every character have flaws like most humans do. The only thing to overcome the character flaws is to challenge their conflicts. Whether a man or woman, humanity is not always a perfect one. And one who is overly perfect is a Mary Sue, an unrealistically overpowered character.
“But the tough girl only becomes interesting when there’s more to her personality and story” That’s the truth for any character that many people seem to miss. It’s not their physical capability that makes a character interesting- it’s their personality. That’s why people loved the Marvel characters- we see both their moments of strength and vulnerability
I think you're missing the point a bit. Male characters can be one dimensional and still popular. I wanna name some people but also don't want to start a flame war lol 😅 Think of a movie where the guy is basically just strong and cool. Heck. The terminator is literally a robot.
Oh and the marvel characters you are referring to are dudes. Black widow is the solo tough girl, and ms Marvel was not well received by angry boys who can't handle a woman being a person. Besides that there aren't a lot of female characters that get a lot of screen time. So this isn't a good comparison
@@phillip2169 Wanda, Gamora, and Nebula have good development and Wanda will get even more in Doctor Strange 2. But I get what you mean, the male characters are more dimensional.
Your descriptions of Sarah Connor and Furiosa remind me so much of Mikasa Ackerman from Attack on Titan. Hope you guys can do an analysis video on her manga counterpart (anime version is good, but manga version is better in every way & more nuanced)! She's most known for being a "badass" or embodying pure physical strength. But, it's really her mental strength & resilience, love, trust and compassion that grow throughout the story, alongside her understanding & responsibility for her physical power. She's often inspiring other characters in different ways and a protective figure physically and of reassurance. She values her relationships, has a realist outlook on life, and is often associated w/ family, inner strength & home. She pushes onward w/ her most valued quality, pride, and her strong free will, a character so necessary in Attack on Titan's cruel world, where characters are constantly facing loss and enduring harsh circumstances, forced to adapt, while losing pieces of them in the process. I would love to watch a video of you guys doing an analysis of Mikasa once the Attack on Titan (Shingeki no Kyojin) manga is completely released (only 3 more chapters)!! She's a great example of a "tough girl" who greatly values her "feminine" qualities. I think she may be one of my most favorite examples of a really good "strong female character" that challenges many tired tropes.
The @3:45 *Trinity* problem is that too many people: A. Ignore that the prophecy itself was a lie. B. Then feel this obligation to assign a single character as the "One" instead of realizing that it was totally a joint effort. & C. Did not play the Matrix Online where you would have found out that Neo + Trinity combined equal the one. Not only that, we see Trinity at the very end of the Matrix Online, and not Neo.
@@tutumazibuko2510 you are entitled to your opinion, but C isn't really up for debate. You'd have to submit your complaint to the Wachowskis because they approved of the games story as canon & appointed Paul Chadwick who also created a couple of the Matrix comics. I was there from chapter 1.2 until the very end. There was a lot more than just the *Trilogy* 3 films. The Animatrix is an animated film that is probably the most important piece of supplemental material. I'd say the Enter the Matrix console game would be 2nd because the cut scenes were tied in directly to the path of Niobi & Ghost in Reloaded which you can watch on my channel. A close 3rd & arguably 2nd would be the Matrix comics, which originally were posted online and then eventually made in print. And last would be the mentioned Matrix online game which picked up at the end of Revolutions & I'm hoping is the prequel to the Matrix 4, but we'll see. Think about how many people complain about Reloaded & Revolutions. Not everyone was ready for more, including the studio that produced it. The additional media was hardly advertised. In retrospect, especially with how popular the Matrix theme has become now, when 20 years ago mainstream society labeled fans nerds for liking the films, I can really appreciate having had the opportunity to *choose* to pursue all of the additional material and information. Because now, I have an understanding that perhaps only 300 people (final number of Mxo users before the servers were shut down) or less could've gotten from the Matrix Universe experience. It's rewarding by itself & I've been in the process of sharing that knowledge of my experience on my channel, and just like I had to want to know more then, those who follow my content want to know more now. The problem is choice.
That is one of the things that Game of Thrones got so right: The writing of all the women (and men, as well). They go through moments of toughness, vulnerability, flawed behaviour, intelligence, ignorance, ruthlessness, kindness, grace, and humility. Each main character truly develops over time, and they feel like REAL people despite living in a fantasy world.
One of my fave action movie heroines is Evelyn from The Mummy (1999). She’s totally a damsel in distress, and her curiosity and ambition unleash hell on earth-but she’s also ambitious, extremely knowledgeable, and brave-and it’s her knowledge, ultimately, that saves the day-not punching stuff. She was such a breath of fresh air, in those days before I discovered Joss Whedon, lol. I thought her characterization was perfect and so endearing and interesting. To be honest, I’m not sure any modern action/adventure movies have a heroine comparable to her, still.
I enjoy this channel so damn much. Really appreciate how this video calmly and thoughtfully addresses the problems in the writing with characters like Rey or Captain Marvel, AND offers solutions, without being aggressive or whiny about it like so many other videos.
@@metalface_villain not really. Women were treated horribly in greek society. In viking society however, over half of the corpses on battlefields were found to be women. They just had better social equality than the greeks.
@@metalface_villain Although to quote one of my favorite childhood series, "if your best shot at equality is Sparta, then you're kinda stuck in pooptown with only a sand shovel."
Submissive is a female quality? And a good quality? You gotta be kidding me. No one should be submissive, man or woman. Considerate, patient, respectful, loyal.. those are good qualities. Not submissive.
I love your channel. Your dissection of popular media through a female lens has really helped me recognize the sexism that exists and appreciate when a really standout piece of media excels in leveling the playing field for men and women. There's not a single other channel that I watch for media dissection that does what you do. Thank you.
Great video! But part of the issue I think is that often male action heroes themselves are under developed and one dimensional, but because they still conform to the audience's stereotypes, people are willing to overlook that fact. When female action heroes are written the same way as men, then the flaws in the script become more apparent.
Hermione is another example of Trinity syndrome. She's smarter, more resourceful, a better witch than Harry and Ron. But in the end she's just there to support the chosen one, helping Harry achieve his destiny. We don't even hear about her dreams or aspirations, just know that she gives them up to follow him.
@@kitkatbar689 Well to be fair, we do have that one scene in the books when she is looking through pamphlets of wizarding jobs and dismisses a couple of them before Harry and Ron start talking about other stuff lol. You would think Hermoine would have researched all of that year 1 and decided on at least a couple of goals. I was going to say that we dont see too much of Ron's dreams either, but we do. He wants to do whatever it is that will make him loads of galleons and hopefully well known and well liked. His dreams are centered around getting out from under his brothers shadows and from the embarrassment he feels for being poor. Hermoine hardly even seems to even like her loving parents that much. Hmmm.
I saw in an interview somewhere that because the writer of the movies was such a fan of Hermione, he kind of removed her flaws from the book when adapting her to the movie, so she becomes greater than Harry and Ron, but still in need of them? I heard the three even each other out in the book, but I haven't read them.
When I first watched The Matrix, I immediately fell in love with Trinity lol. I guess that's like a character-crush for a 90's kid, kinda like Sarah Connor and Ripley to 80's kid.
I love your videos! They’re so informative, and they shed light onto so many stereotypes and tropes! And it’s done with grace and nuance, which is beautiful! Thank you so much, The Take!
I think Sansa's strength doesn't get enough recognization. She's the perfect example that you can be as feminine as you want and don't have to be extremely physically strong to be a confident queen.
I dont believe there is such a thing as a female or male quality. When you refer to something like loving your family as a female quality it makes it hard for me to take you seriously.
@@ouicertes9764 I dont think the author or society believe that men dont love their family or that women love their family more then men. In the same statement the author sites creativity as a female quality. It's the same thing as when the anti sjws call something like honor or bravery a male quality. It's just kinda silly.
I keep thinking about this for some reason. I dont think I made my point sufficiently clear. I dont really disagree with the points made in this video. I think the arguments they use are lazy. I think it's worse to make a bad argument then it is not to make one. What this is is potential fodder for some shappearo (no, I dont care enough to look how to spell his name) wannabe to own the libs
Also I find your reply absolutely insufferable. Can you not use contractions? Why is the author the only one how gets to have an opinion on media made by some one else? If they didn't want people to comment on their commentary then why didn't they disable the comments? You know they can do that right? Holy crap, why did you capitalize SOCIETY? What makes you think that you, or the author for that matter, is the ultimate authority on what we as a SOCIETY believe? Do you think I'm not a member of SOCIETY? If your going to masturbate, please do it in privet.
I know what you're talking about. That take off these gender genetics and deep down, we're human. But these genders are real. Women traditionally don't build houses because our shoulders and body structure aren't built to make one. Males traditionally don't hunt for edible plants, sew and make art because they're brains are (according to research) usually better off focusing on the bigger ideas (e.g. building houses) rather than focusing on the tiny details. And because a lot of males back then were so biologically equipped for hunting and finding food, likewise we women developed greater areas for empathy and maternity. There IS such a thing as division between those two. To me, not acknowledging the difference is as worse as blatantly pushing the two genders in comfy, little boxes. There's a reason why EQUITY is different from Equality.
I don’t think Tauriel qualifies as an “only tough” girl as described here. Her warrior skills are a defining part of her personality, but she also shows a lot of soft emotion, and her youthful idealism is what truly sets her apart from most of the other characters.
They're saying that every incarnation is bad. They're just examining and acknowledging the nuances of tough girls in storytelling while also acknowledging the potential pitfalls of it if not examined and handled critically. "Remember that it is both possible and even necessary to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of its more problematic or pernicious aspects".
@300bpm Not your baby girl, creep. You keep sounding hurt, I'm worried... forget the therapist, go straight to the hospital. By your babble of "sjw are crazy, they murdered my mom and I can prove it", it must be that your *extremely* fragile Masculine™ sensibilities got hit. 😔
I love this types of video! Makes me realize all the models I have looked up to, it's mostly fake or don't exist. So I don't need to be like anyone on tv
Well, to be fair, fictional characters don't always need to resemble real people. That's what fiction allows us to do - create stuff that wouldn't otherwise exist. And I see nothing wrong with looking up to impossible characters. As long as you find something worth emulating in a character, then that's enough.
Writers: You're so strong! Tough Girl Characters: Thank you. But what else? Writers: What else? Tough Girl Characters: Is being tough and strong all that matters to you? Writers: What else is there?
I think it’s worth mentioning tough girls can sometimes fall into the trap of being “not like other girls” or are seen completely rejecting all feminine notions on the idea that they are “inferior” or “weak” and frames the women who are not as classically strong as “shallow” or “dumb”
The tough girl trope makes sense to me. Most male action heroes have little depth and are one dimensional, why should it be different for women if they're filling the same role in the story?
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What about the Japanese/animated cinema some love for that ... Please ;)
Princess Mononoke, Ghost in the shell, spirited away, Psycho pass, etc.
@Ryan Stewart Why? Read the title "The Tough Girl Trope, Explained"
It doesnt say The Tough Girl Trope, Explained with only 50% whites ...:)
Can you make a video on General Sam.
Just want to see if you will really do it.
@Ryan Stewart That is if @TheTake can get them right... They put Star Wars under Michonne and Kill Bill under Rey...
Just wanted to say there is an error at 0:09.
me: *is a girl*
me: *stubs my toe and doesn’t make a sound but sheds one single tear to signify pain*
me: is the world ready for me?
I'm not gonna read any other comments on UA-cam today... I wanna hold on to this feeling just a little longer...
definition of *power move*
Nope cause she's a badass!!
Hahaha, you're the very definition of a powerful woman!🌟
Stubbed your toe and didn't make a sound? That's not even 1% of your full potential. 😲
Kim Possible, Atomic Betty, Totally Spies... There are a lot of tough girls with complexity but still able to stay feminine, in children cartoon.
So true
Loved them all! Also, My Life as a Teenage Robot.
From those examples I would guess that you must be too young for the original iteration of this trope in cartoons as the Power Puff girls in 1998. Which was for a while was one of the most immediately recognisable exports of American culture, not just in terms of animation but PPG managed to be a meme in a pre-web 2.0 world. I'm sure there are other examples of well written female characters in animated kids shows before 1998 but in terms of where that idea that it's common to have strong, female and feminine heroes in kids animated shows goes Blossom, Bubbles, and Buttercup are as good a place to start as any.
@@matthewmcneany You're right, but you didn't have to be so condescending about it.
@@TheChickenRiceBowl That was not my intention at all, it was just meant to be context for people who might otherwise be unaware that a thing exists or of how big a deal it was at the time.
I see Legally Blonde as a clapback to the Tough Girl
Rosalyn Robinson Good example
TRUE
Rosalyn Robinson She was written that way. Legally Blonde and Miss Congeniality were written in a time similar to ours when women were being contextually shamed back into “acting feminine.”
I agree, it just goes to show that you can be feminine and yet still be considered "tough" and "a fighter".
Trina Q love this
Imagine writing women like they're human, creating more interesting characters. The shock.
Shinzenbi, oh the horror! Haha!
imagine telling others to write characters you want, oh the..... reality.
I KNOW RIGHT ! Like a woman has to be exceptionally sexy or exceptionally not traditionally feminine to be interesting. Urgh
So like Katara?
Try Terry Pratchett. Sybil Ramkin is the bomb.
I just want directors to understand that being "vulnerable" or "feminine" ITS NOT A FREAKING WEAKNESS
Violet (played by Jennifer Tilly) from *_Bound_* embodies this statement. I think she's a more interesting character than Trinity.
Thank u for said this
@@ARosethatBloomsinEarlyMay omg I love Jennifer Tilly shes so freaking perfect in every role she plays in (I love her as an actress not in person by the way)
The reason directors believe that is society reinforces this stereotype where vulnerability is associated with femininity. If you ask me, being emotionally vulnerable also requires a certain type of strength "toughness"
Isnt vulnerability by definition a weakness?
"We should attack the enemy at the rear where they are vulnerable "
I love the explanation of things. The "tough girl" trope is only a problem when that's her only defining quality. If a characters one and only defining trait is that they're "strong" they're boring, male or female. I feel like a lot of writers/directors think that if they have a woman punch stuff and beat the bad guy the female audience will automatically love and admire her.... not so much.
Laura B I agree with you. So that’s why they need a lot more voices in the room to tell them otherwise. When tv shows and movies do the same things over and over it’s because they are the only ones in the room- no inclusion and no diversity
Exactly, there needs to be FAR more to her than just simply being tough, or else she risks just being a walking stereotype. Beatrix Kiddo from "Kill Bill" could be the definitive example, as she was propelled to start her killing spree after her life was ruined.
There does, but i think you also need enough other fleshed out women around her that she's not responsible for being The Woman, or even The Woman Who's Not Like Other Girls. One of the things i think films like fury road and fast color got right is that there are multiple significant femme characters, so each can be powerful and flawed in her own way and they can help define each other simply by existing in the same space.
I think it's also worth noting that we're a lot more willing to accept an idealized paragon character if that character has gonads. James bond doesn't have a lot of backstory, and his flaws are basically that he's violent, sexually aggressive to the point of predation, and emotionally unavailable, which are selling points in some audiences. Yet he's still held audience attention for 25 films. Captain america's flaws mostly come down to being stubborn and absolutely convinced of his own rightness (which his films usually support), but he too is rarely if ever decried as too perfect.
@Just a thought That is largely because there is a double standard. It is apparently totally okay for a male lead to be a paragon of whatever virtue is desired in any given era, but as soon as you put a female power fantasy on screen you can bet that this stupid Mary Sue nonsense starts again. Contrary to popular believe it is not just about the character, it is about the whole package, meaning you can easily have a virtuous character as long as said character fits the story you want to tell. In pretty much every single movie which didn't work for the audience, the problem was the OVERALL writing, not specifically the writing of this one character. But certain people just love to blame it on the female lead for their outrage machine.
Im not going to act like male characters aren't automatically loved for just being strong lol
I really hope that Marvel makes right for Black Widow and gives her what she never had: a proper development
Whatever. Shes already dead I guess
she's never been that interesting. In the comics or the movies. I'd rather see them get She-Hullk or the new Ms Marvel right.
Have you not seen civil war she literally killed it.
Black widow really deserves more depth than what they gave her initially, the fact that they made us love her so much in Endgame just to kill her off was so cruel. If they can make her show the same level of emotion in that movie like she did in that single scene I’ll be happy
empty shogun she definitely has but a lot of her character progression has been done behind the scenes. Like it was never front and center like say iron man or captain America, you see? Hell even the hulk got his character arc front and Centre but we’ve never gotten the same for black widow.
Hollywood has ruined the strong female character by making them a "strong female" character rather than a strong character who happens to be a female.
thank you. you said this perfectly
EXACTLY!!!!
well said, well fucking said.
Couldn't have said it any better myself,👏👏👏👏
YES.
Literally why wonder woman has been my favorite superhero since I was 7. Punches superman across a room, goes on a shopping spree, debates batman in philosophy, then goes outside just to smell a flower.
YES
🩵🌿
The part where it says that even framing makes us remember a character is female shock me( in a way that I never noticed that..............)
The Transformers movie is probably one of the worst offenders of this. The framing of Megan Fox in the movie signified that her value is in her being sexy all the while she's talking about how men don't like how she knows more about cars than they do. The framing didn't match the dialogue at all, but that's Michael Bay for you.
@@RubyRobbins88 Ironically, in real life many have Michael Bay's glasses on when interacting with good looking people, especially women (regardless of attire).
@@RubyRobbins88 ah, I see someone watched Lindsay Ellis
@@tutumazibuko2510 Absolutely! She's got amazing insight!
I found it funny how in that part, they were showing Angelina Jolie in the shower as if to emphasize that, but it also had Daniel Craig topless and if I remember correctly the movie shows his backside too. So... that movie sexually opjectified both of them, which I am completely okay with! More equal oppurtinity objectification!
Can you do one on minority sidekicks?
Yes please do that
if so, please include my favorite subversion of the trope (as with so many others), _Blazing Saddles_
Yes Kato was too good for green hornet
+
@@victoriaparsons3684 I agree
Tough girl is just cool girl after gym
i laughed this is so funny
So true. I couldn't have said it better.
Not at all. Tough girl doesn't seek approval.
@@u770017 you have totally missed the point. a cool girl is an unrealistic female character created by a socially inept man, a cool girl could be anything - she doesn't have to seek approval. watch the takes video on it :)
@@satan9228 It's not created by socially inept men, it's created by writes men and women who just need a side character. There is also the male tropes too.
It was crazy to see all the Wonder Woman backlash after Captain Marvel's release. So many people were accusing Diana of being "weak" because she was "feminine".
Valid Her “feminine” was every female stereotype in the book and her “personality” was being crazy about babies and men. She doesn’t have a personality.
Valid what lmfaoo? All I saw was people attacking captain marvel for being “boring” and “too masculine”.
@@EverintheRising Her being naive despite being a part of the "born sexy yesterday" trope in does more for the story than people give it credit to. The whole story is based around it. Personality? She's compassionate and understanding, curious and adventurous. I believe people start this claims more because they themselves see the displays of femininity from wonder woman as weak and see Captain Marvel as response to that. But I feel Carol Danvers lacks more personality than Diana since she's pretty much perfect and none of her flaws (the obvious ones and non-obvious ones) are not discussed. Also the directors and writers sucked.
You’re kidding... it’s Wonder Woman for Christ’s sake.
Nobody has ever accused Diana as weak.
What some people DID say (and rightly so) is that Diana is the kind of "strong female character" which comes with a lot of appeasement for the male audience, while Captain Marvel doesn't bother with holding the male audience's hand, quite the opposite. That doesn't make Diana a worse character, but it explains (among other things) why the Anti-SJWs had a harder time to steer up hatred against Diana compared to Carol.
To me the tough girl is essentially just a male character packaged in an idealized female body that is clearly just intended to be desirable to men.
But she must be scantily clad or else they wont find her sexy at all. She must not have much protection and her boobs almost popping out.
I agree until that last part. They're desirable to women because women are the ones who defend the awful characters to the death
who is generally the demographic for action type movies that have the tough girl? Is it men or women? (yes, I'm generalizing) Wouldn't it make sense to create characters that are appealing to your target demographic? I think people forget the point of movies is to generate capital, not to be a biopic on modern society. that's why the leads in movies are usually attractive.
Part of the issue here is the fact that this is entertainment not real life representation. Men like to see sexually appealing women kicking butt, much like women enjoy seeing highly attractive men in action sequences as well.
yeah...
Spot on about the burden of representing her entire sex when she's the only female in a group. That's always frustrated me, the whole token female thing. Even if we don't mean to, I think many viewers may subconsciously see the lone female as the ambassador of all females, so instead of just representing herself and no one else, she takes on the hopeless task (or rather, is dealt the task by the writers/some of the audience) of representing all women at once. There was some of this talk around Black Panther. One of the things the movie has going for it is that it has a pretty diverse range of female characters, from scientists to intelligence officers to generals, so that each can inhabit their own traits and roles in the story without being defined first and foremost by their sex. (And having it be commonplace to have a wider range of female characters in one movie _sounds_ like it should be so simple and easy to do, but clearly not, as evidenced by the many films where there's usually only one female speaking role in a film where gender wouldn't make a difference.🙄)
Ever think of doing a video for the "Ugly Duckling" trope?
Its always about obviously beautiful girl who's a bit awkward and wear glasses.
"She's All That" was the first one that came to mind. Most of the "ugly ducklings" weren't even ugly, just a pretty girl with glasses and/or ugly clothes like Tiny Grimes said.
I think theres more to it than just the pretty girl who's "ugly" because they wear glasses. I wanna know what their take is for female leads who play that kind of girl that actually dont meet generic standards of attractiveness such as The Duff or Sierra Burgess. Imo both movies teach girls that are like them that they can appreciate every quality about themselves in which they excel EXCEPT for their looks/physical appearance
@@Tima-oz5te glasses can be cute especially on guys. honestly look at IT and Richie & Stand By Me w/ Teddy Duchamp. both young men are so handsome especially w/ glasses. plus neither were "nerds" both were funny, charismatic characters
I always hated that trope because it made me super disappointed when I never had the glow up that I was promised. It made me wonder if I was doing something wrong.
I never even had glasses to take off, and straightening my hair just makes it look flat lol
When this trope is done right the characters it can produce are amazing and some of the most real and human characters you can get but when it's done wrong you almost hate those characters and takes away from your enjoyment of the film/show.
Precisely, the Tough Girls needs to feel as real and authentic a person as possible, otherwise she could come off as cliched, a walking stereotype, or a desperate attempt to pander to your female audience.
@@trinaq you're so right especially when that character is made for wish fulfillment then actually the plot of the story I believe its insulting to the women they're trying to represent.
@Tim Evans Dude What are you talkin about? People hate Sansa because of her own actions in the story she's not a likeable character she sold out her family got many people killed sold out her brother when he trusted her with the biggest secret of his life for power she is just given power not by her own actions but by luck of birth and absolutely no one has a problem with her being feminine her mother Kat was one of the strongest characters in the story and possibly the most feminine so miss me with that crap logic btw sansa watched thousands of loyal soldiers die in the battle of the bastards just so she could hold that over Jon's head later on to feel like she did something and as soon as he becomes King she immediately starts undermining his authority and questioning him out loud in front of everyone she's been around enough powerful people to know that is a conversation to be had in private and the reason why people like Arya isn't because she threw away traditional femininity it's because when her feet were to the fire she stood by and protected her family even before she was a powerful warrior when they were both little girls in kings landing (they both grew up in the same house but she is the only stark child to continuously choose outsiders over her family thats what got her direwolf lady killed)she stood by her brother when no one else would that's staying loyal Sansa didn't have that trait and she knew what her brother was doing is right but she just wanted power if a male character was this hated you would say most likely agree so it seems you don't respect women enough and think they're strong enough to be held accountable for their own actions. I believe even most women would agree that she isn't a good person (I also think a lot of this also stems from Sophie Turner's acting) check your bias. while I do think John wasn't the brightest character he was the only honorable man in a very dishonorable world so his decision Ned Stark's decision seemed very foreign to people who value honor and I do think the show went out of it's way to portray john as dumb and woefully incompetent.
Yep a bad female character (and the actress) get a lot of hate like you said, even harassed off social media, but when male characters aren't real or authentic, no one cares or calls them a walking stereotype or a Mary Sue. This is why we need more representation. Female characters should be allowed the same range that we give male ones.
@@1amissingno absolutely they need a variety of voices in the writers room they need difference of opinion because I think this usually happens when you have one person making all the decisions and we start seeing someone's idea what a woman should be or an idealized version of what they want women to be when most people just want a human character to relate to and they make these characters so unrelatable. But I also believe that there are a lot of male characters who are criticized for being overpowered or for bad acting but when those criticisms are levied they won't be called sexist misogynist so I think the conversation around bad male characters can be a bit more healthy and isn't as exasperated. when it comes to female characters.
I love the idea of writing a character then finding a person who best fits the role rather than assigning gender to begin with
It's not a bad idea. In some cases though you definitely need to have gender into consideration.
As a young Black woman, this video really resonates with me on a different level due to the prevalence of the “strong black woman” trope. Thank you so much for this well-thought out analysis. 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 This is my favorite channel on UA-cam! 😁
“...after she’s brutally attacked on her wedding day”
Actually, it was a wedding rehearsal
I thought that was happening right before the wedding was about to take place? Do people have wedding rehearsals as a completely separate thing?
@@Xshathra006 I'm sure it is
This perfectly explains why I’ve always felt like I couldn’t relate to women in most action movies. Give me Fleabag any day.
@dil oreo No it isn't. Maybe lay off the porn.
@@u770017 Don Draper is an aging insecure man with sex addiction, James Bond too, kind of every Clint Eastwood type of character really so yeah they got a point
@@justarandomperson.4205 Ok Ill agree, but that doesn't define the subject of the show.
300bpm oh no I love action movies lol
Manophere. com the what and the who?
We don't have to completely write off the "masculine" tough girl -- that's a personality type that EXISTS (and the non-feminine, yet non-butch character is someone I will always relate to) -- but the real problem is that stories lack a diverse range of female characters, so these tough girls carry the story's "female representation." And you covered that beautifully.
Beatrix was tough far before Bill shot her. She has lots of backstory showing how she became tough before the incident out of her own will and desire to be a better fighter/assasin. O-Ren could be an example of what you're talking about, but on the whole the many female characters in Kill Bill are diverse, unique and interesting in their own ways, most especially Beatrix. All of the female characters have some stereotypically masculine traits through their fighting prowess, ability to be stone cold, etc., but they all also have their own traditionally feminine traits as well (as is the case with every human). Vernita loves her life as a wife and mother and wants to leave her old life behind. Elle pines for Bill's attention and is furiously jealous of Beatrix. O-Ren presents wearing beautiful kimonos and wielding a pretty feminine sword, and expresses genuine empathy and remorse toward Beatrix during their final fight. And Beatrix's love for the child she is carrying eclipses all of her other desires and priorities; in some ways, her role as a mother is the most important driving force behind her character. The characters feel like people before they feel like women, which is the gold standard of female depiction in media. Please don't reduce The Bride's masterful and nuanced characterization down to a trope.
Thanks you finally
Thank you so much
Be careful making that much sense
its not just the Bride either. I've noticed this about the Take, they like to cherry pick, while ignoring anything about characterization of their examples that contradicts their claims.
But they didn't.......? They cited The Bride as a nuanced character and listed one of the reasons why they think so. They might've not gone in-depth for time.
But uma thurman was already a tough skilled assassin before the church incident
And she loved Bill, she was soft she gave it all up for BB
I think they focus more on her drive for vengeance after experiencing a post-massacre miscarriage
Sure, but my point was that the video frames uma thurman as this tough girl who became tough because of the loss of her baby, but she was already tough before
@300bpm At no point was she tough and skilled for the right reasons. She only wanted revenge for what was directly done to her and perceivably, her child. She never vowed to be a good person or turn away from evil, She simply wanted revenge. She had no idea that BB was alive and harbored no desire to help or change the world that she herself helped to create. Theres no arc. There was no transformation. She was the same person she always was. The same character (plus a bit of scarring) from beginning to end. That is not what you call a character arc.
@@matttheamerican3766 I think you are mistaken. her exact transformation happens when she _doesn't_ kill Bill, because yes, she didn't kill him. It all came down to her changing her ways. She was saying how once she found out that she was pregnant she couldn't continue being an assassin anymore. But she thought she lost her child. And of course she wanted revenge. But once she found out her daughter was alive she was still very angry with Bill, because she felt betrayed, but she understood that she doesn't want her daughter to grow up in a world where killing is the norm, it all solidifies with the story that Bill told her of how she killed the fish that she stepped on. She wants her to grow up away from violence. so she doesn't proceed with her plan. Bill in fact doesn't die at the end
Maybe we should forget Strength as masculine and Caringness as feminine qualities and relearn both as human qualities. This dual way of thinking might hold the divide longer.
I really like how you guys use all types of movies, it really shows how we grow up with stereotypes and they are present throughout our lives!!
This whole series is very eye opening and interesting, really makes us see just how deep the male dominance is present in our society. And while not condemning any of these movies, it’s always good to have a more critical view of them
Sarah F. your an idiot...stereotypes usually have some truth
@@macturner80 *you're
un spectateur how so 😂
@@macturner80 shut up, she is right. media and society in general is male dominated
Funny Little Frog no u shut up the reason beginning is because that’s what’s puts asses in the seats...women are a huge draw in media...just look at what sales action historically male dominated...sex historically male dominated... ur just mad because your not a man...but don’t worry they have procedures so you can pretend now...men are content being men women (modern) aren’t content period until the finally figure out that womanhood is about complimenting men not competing with them...these are just facts
Buffy is still the ultimate “strong but complex” female character in my book
Ben Wasserman I was missing the first three seasons on DVD and, got them for Xmas! I know the show is streaming but, whatever they did with color, hue, tone is completely off compared to the original airing or the DVD’s. I know it’s old school but, I love the original look and, intention of the show.
and willow, and faith too :)
The females in that show were well written & all able to handle themselves without being weak
0:08 WOW REY WAS IN KILL BILL I NEVER NOTICED
lolmaster 💀
Good I’m not the only one. I thought I was tripping 💀
That's what I like about katniss and buffy because they're tough but at the end they're just teenage girls in tough situations.
Do one about the Crazy Ex-Grilfriend trope, can use Charlize Theron's character in Young Adult, and Evan Rachel Wood in Pretty Persuasian and Rebecca Bunch
Will Atkins Charlize Theron in Young Adult was so incredible. Such a train wreck of a character but I just couldn’t look away. I also love that by the end of the movie she really hasn’t learned much of anything. Usually that would be a flaw but in that particular case I thought it was much more true to life.
They already did that with Gone Girl.
There are so many films I can’t watch because the female character doesn’t feel like a human, but rather how men want us to behave. We have to fight for everything :/
Can u give some examples? I haven't really seen enough movies to notice them
Yeah, us men love when women act like violent uneducated men..
shee thruu straight up as a chick it’s hard not to notice, cause that’s the only person you’re given in the movie who looks like you and you can relate to more personally.
Lara Croft in the Angelina Jolie movies. In some of the games she’s way cooler but in those movies you could tell very much that she was there to be attractive eye candy.
Electra in Daredevil. She’s got the personality of wet cardboard, and is knife wielding eye candy.
A lot of female anime characters as well, which isn’t surprising considering a lot of anime is made by men.
I mean I’m trying to think of examples but the characters are just so forgettable it’s hard.
@@fridam2022 All the Marvel movies are examples. The female characters are sickeningly one-dimensional. Black Widow/Natasha has no essence. They exist to look good on screen or have one or two sexy sequences. The only ounce of personality we got to see was when she sacrificed herself in the final film. The role of females in Marvel films is diluted to just clever and sarcastic dialogue without any character development. Who the hell is Black Widow? Who is Natasha Romanov? What drives her? What are her core beliefs? What does she believe in? Good question because the MCU tried to cram all of those answers into half of Endgame.
@@aditib5635 She's gonna have her own movie to answer's these questions.
The world is ready for more problematic women like Villanelle from Killing Eve
Villanelle is an interesting psychopath, I wouldn't say she's a revolutionary 3d female character
love her!
i would also like morally grey female characters who aren't super hot too. or even morally good ones. just average looking female actors getting good roles please and thank you 👍🏽
also can we have some buff female characters please? so much superhero media and they are all still stick thin people. i mean, i say this cos im gay AND cos it makes sense
@@oof-wi7hp honestly big agree like ik buff women kinda perpetuates the "women needing to be as tough as men to be considered strong" thing but sometimes we just wanna see...buff women...........
Did Sarah Conner ever balance her checkbook?
Apparently not! Notice how she's always on the run from her creditors?
Probably just set it on fire!
@@Lowlight91 Great with guns, not so much with money-management.
I agree with the need of new strong women i.e. Mad Max: Fury Road. That movie actually shows what real life men call a strong woman. Believe it or not men do talk about their favorite female action stars and Furioso comes up alot. And the reason we give is she never gets on a soap box about being strong as any man, she just does the actions. Thus shutting the males that doubted her the fuck up. It happened in labor areas all the time.
the shame is that for her to "be valuable" she has to be in competition with opposing forces. Achieving, competing, overcoming and subduing are masculine energies. Let's praise women for their feminine energy, not everything is about putting an opponent down and winning. Feminine energy is about uniting and connecting, not defeating
@@Elven. Men also unite and connect. But what do women do better than men? Where do women have a distinct advantage over men?
@@treacherousjslither6920
Don't you think that's a little bit of a broader generalization friend?
@@treacherousjslither6920 Socializing and some academic studies. In my field (medicine) 60 percent of people achieving the degree are females
both men and women have masculine and feminine energy. No one is saying men can't connect. I'm saying masculine traits are the only ones seen as powerful in female characters
Why is “cool and collected” and “logical” archetypes as a distinctly masculine trait? On more than one instance, it was stated that these descriptions are that of men. I understand historically male characters were the ones given those characteristics but doesn’t continuing to associate those traits with men make also place limits on female characters?
Yes I agree with this and it frustrates me.
I'm guessing it has something to do with the emotional/irrational trait that is usually attributed to women. It directly opposes it. But I agree with you: men can be emotional, as women can be tough. Truth is modern society usually don't portrait these genders as such, hence (i guess) why stories and movies are generally not written with those associations in mind, as it would not be well received by the audiences. (sorry if my english isn't perfect)
because that's masculine energy. Both Men and women have masculine and feminine energy, being emotional is not bad, it's feminine energy. But society says it's bad to be warm and emotional instead of cool and logical.
just a bookholic because it is
@@Elven. maculine engery and femenine energy? That doesn't even exist. Do you even know what energy is?
Men are typically more masculine and women more typically femenine. And even though some characteristics may seam to be linked somehow they don't necessarily are. Women can be cold and tough and still be very femenine in some ways. Or be emotional and caring and be more maculine in some other ways.
Buffy is not boring AT ALL, she's the perfect tough girl.
The movie version was better
She’s a tuff girly girl
@@brya9681 Hard disagree, Buffy in the show (if you've watched it) is very complex, interesting, and Sarah Michelle Gellar is an amazing actress.
@@Olivetree80 I've watched it and I didnt say the show wasnt good. I just think the movie is far better.
Buffy wasn't the sole female character in her show - so she wasn't boring. I agree that she's "Tough Girl Plus"
Fringe's Olivia is a brilliant character that's complex and tough and excellent because she's emotional, not despite of her emotions
shes my all time favorite protagonist, male or female
I can't like this comment enough. Olivia was simply the best
I was thinking of her throughout the video. She is such a fantastic role model. Her feminine qualities are portrayed as her strength. She isn't hyper sexualised. She wears generic flat work shoes for field work. I love her so, so much, even after all the years of having watched the show.
Exactly, Olivia's character is amazing. So real and inspiring.
Agree...she was one of the first female characters I really admired in scripted media as an adult.
Thank you soooo much for highlighting that it’s important to value traditionally feminine traits and not demean them. You can be nurturing, loving, compassionate, creative, etc. and that doesn’t make you any less “strong”. There are different kinds of strengths. I’m sick of physical strength and aggression being valued.
Thanks, no thanks, for pushing the notion that those are "feminine" traits in the first place. The great thing about Fury Road is not that there are multiple women or the level of their "femininity", the great thing about it is that in this movie, women claim violence as something they can rightfully use, without needing any other excuse for it than "this is the world in which we life in, a world in which violence is the path to power, so we will use it".
@@swanpride what are you on about? My whole point is that traits that are thought to be traditionally feminine ARE NOT AUTOMATICALLY WEAK AND WRONG. Jesus fucking christ. But go ahead and be outraged for no reason. What i'm saying is, there is no one kind of strength in femininity or womanhood. You can be compassionate and be "strong". You can be the best sharp shooter and be "strong". And by strong I don't mean physical strength in case you're too slow to understand that.....which you seem to be. YIKES.
I love Buffy so much. She's feminine and tough but also had a lot of complexities to her story and feels like a real person. I'd love to see The Take make a video about the show or just Buffy has a character!
As cool as Ripley is a found Lambert interesting as well. I'm told Ridley Scott visualized her character as a Cassandra. Someone who knows, almost from the get-go that things are going to end very, very, badly, but is ignored. She knows the derelict is bad, but no one listens to her. Her unraveling as the movie progresses is because everything she was afraid of is coming to pass and it can't be stopped.
OMG I was hoping I'd see "The color purple" in this video. I was pleasantly surprised and I enjoyed the in depth observation of the "tough girl troup" Good Video Thanks!
I was so worried that you weren't going to talk about sarah conner, I absolutely love her
This is such an elegant take down of filmboys accusations of "Mary-Sue". How do you manage to push the cinematic conversation left so delicately, without bruising their fragile egos? I love this channel ❤
You're dumb chief
@@Marco-ip3ie Exhibit A right here
@bissa You have to stop worrying about their fragile egos, be as direct as you can, let them know that they're wrong when they're wrong. Always be true to yourself, you may loose some friends but you'll feel much better about yourself and the new friends you gain will be so much more cool and your relationship with them will be stronger.
Except this video sums up what a lot of people criticise about "Mary Sues." That just being a "strong female character" isn't an acceptable stand-in for a well written character with complexity and nuance.
@@AdamRhodes536 actually i feel like the mary sue criticism has been hijacked by so many male nerds who cry at the sight of a female character simply existing that i don't trust it anymore. you are completely right. female characters deserve to be more than simply physically strong people - strong according to a limited male defined standard at that. but too many folks just scream "mary sue" at every capable female character and i am just. so fucking tired
also plenty of male characters who are "strong" or "over-powered" and have no emotional depth otherwise exist in media, so why not women, ya know? the better direction would be to have female characters across the whole spectrum of tropes. that's what i look forward to atleast
The Matrix trilogy is literally FULL of tough women. Trinity is definitely not the only tough woman in that franchise. I actually thought they did a phenomenal job at bringing women to the forefront of the screen as equals in in all three films, which was surprisingly forward-thinking for its time and much needed.
This is one of the reasons why I love Sansa so much. She's beautiful and feminine and she's tough without violence. She never gets into physical fights or displays physical strength but she's strong in her own way. She's clever and a good strategist and she has gone through so much and come out on top without ever using weapons. She shows weakness and flaws. I love Sansa
Y E S
Everyone hates on her so much and I just don't get it. Her femininity is beautiful and her strength is powerful!
So she is the same as Tyrion.
Only on the tv series... Brooks sansa still it's just a stone on little finger Game...
@@vanferuli3 well the books ended around season 5 in terms of development of the story so at that point Jon Snow is still dead, Daenerys is still struggling with her dragons and Aria is still in training so it's not surprising the character of Sansa didn't had the chance to be developed yet
Agreed wholeheartedly. I never understood the criticism behind her. She adapted and played the Game of Thrones and survived. Great character even after all the vitriol over S8
I wonder, do you ever think it's problematic to perpetuate that certain characteristics are primarily feminine (such as compassion or hope) or masculine (strength and logic) in such an all-encompassing way? Like from a societal standpoint, that may be what is currently and more popularly associated with the gender, but by referencing them that way continually do you wonder if it's pigeon-holing those attributes too soon rather than expanding them to simply be characteristics of humanity?
Thank you!
also, i see si many people in these comments talking about female characters that are tough BUT they're also feminine, and it makes me kinda sad. i'm a pretty masculine person and as a girl i've really never been given special treatment for that (actually the opposite). i wish there were developed female characters that could have depth but still be masculine but it seems like no one wants to see that :/
Yeah I get it cause culture and shit but I don't really agree.
there’s something called balance God Made men men and women women why is that so complicated??? men have a role women have a role physically and spiritually...there is a time for everything but for the most part things are a certain way for a reason...but for some reason people are abandoning their cultural ideologies for things they have yet to understand...you kno what would make women nowadays upset???....women watching women on screen doing historically women stuff...that would embarrass them...you realize you are here to be mothers daughters consultants wives predominantly????
@@macturner80 cool im not a christian though
I hated how in Infinity War and End Game they had these stupid scenes where all the women got together to fight and the movie made it so pandering and in your face. It just didn't come off genuine to me. I do really like Wanda though I think she is strong, layered and an interesting character. The scene where she fought Thanos was way better than the scene when Captain Marvel fought Thanos in my opinion.
Zeina Ian agree , most of the women in that scene doesn’t really even know each other. If there were just little scenes beforehand of some of the girls bonding or even just acknowledging each other, then maybe. But it just looked like the writers had an afterthought of ‘Oh shit, what if and stay with me here guys, the *women* save CM and easily kill all these soldiers that even some of the male avengers struggled to kill.’ 🙄
It was fan service to give all the women their due. I liked it.
But of course it wasn’t realistic, you’re watching time travel with creatures from other worlds...
Agree. It was entirely unearned and hamfisted
I want so badly to like Captain Marvel because she’s supposed to be “for me”, but she has the personality of wet cardboard. And I never realized Black Widow had any personality besides hot spy. Sucks that people can’t just write female characters like actual characters.
Fisticuffs Mate although i agree with CM having no personality, black widow had plenty of development in AOU, the winter soldier, and even civil war. it’s more subtle but her personality does shine through quite a lot.
When I first saw Wonder Woman I was disappointed by the sappy, love can cure all, ending. But watching this video, I wonder if I have been conditioned to think that way due to the way that media potrays strong women. They can only be fierce and brutal and tough, but not emotional and complex. I thought that by making Wonder Woman feel a human emotion at the end of the movie it bit away at her strong character and just made her into a "typical woman". I can definitely get behind the idea that we have been conditioned to feel that a woman cannot be both strong and feminine at the same time. I feel like House of Cards' Claire Underwood is a good representation of this. She is strong and resilient, but also humane and loving.
whenever I try to point this out to my friend when we're watching a movie with a "strong" female character he says something like "what so a female character can't be pretty?" or "she decides to wear revealing clothes, so what? a strong woman isn't defined by her clothes plus it was her choice" and I'm like dude, you don't get it
I just love how your friend values what you have to say and listens closely to your meaning rather than cherry picking the easiest interpretation to argue, ignoring everything else. /s
A woman's sexuality is a huge part of her strength. That's a woman's power. It's the equivalent of a man's physical power.
@@cockoffgewgle4993 It's actually not especially empowering at all to see a strong female character being undermind by catering to the "straight horny male gaze". So long as she fits into a very narrow view of youth, physical beauty and fitness standards, of course. It's very uncomfortable as a woman to notice that just about every movie, commercial, billboards etc. Encourage and rewards women who give up their dignity in order to titalate staight mens sex fantasies. I don't see that happening to men hardly ever. And even in movies that sexualise men a little bit, tend to do it to their female characters twice as much, and in a much more vulgar way than any male characters. It's disgusting. It makes it feel like our collective female personhood, our autonomy, our relatability as human beings with agency is being undermined in mass media so we can be alien sex objects for mens sexual consumption and nothing more. It feels creepy, threatening and supremely degrading. Like were basically sex objects to be bought from a store to be used like playthings and then thrown away like a used condom. I also attribute all the "Me too" stories to the public perception of womens roles in our society. Media is a tool for socialization and when women on screen are constantly being potrayed as sex objects, people do actually start treating women like their sex objects. Sex for women in particular can trap women in to a life of subservience and servitude in many different ways, if shes not careful. To say that it's our superpower is rediculas and false. That sounds like a poorly thought out statement of a straight male who wants to see tits basically.
@@Ragdollwasteland333 what an amazing answer, I could not agree more. Cheers from Paris.
@@cockoffgewgle4993 congratulations you've utterly and completely missed the point
"When we think about the strong female character maybe we should start focusing not on whether or not she can win fights but if her writing is good"
YES!!! I"ve bee saying for years that when trying to create strong female writer get so wrapped up on the "stong" part and tryin to make them as flawless as possible they forget to make her a real person. Being a strong character doesn't just mean being a badass it also means be realistic and believable. There are physically strong Male characters that I would call strongly written but some of the strongest written Male character in media aren't exactly strong flawless or relatable themeselves. I'm just saying if we can have characters like Dexter Morgan, Jordan Belfort, Walter White and Tatsuhiro Satou be considered strong Characters why can't we have more characters like Rebecca Bunch, Jackie Peyton, Villanelle or Tomoko Kuroki who are strong characters but far from perfect or aspirational people.
I haven't seen the movie but I have a feeling this is what criticism of Captain Marvel was brought on by. That they made her strong for the sake of having a strong female example but without depth. And then u have ur everyday bigots complaining about feminism...
please do a character analysis on Blair Waldorf from gossip girl or Madison Montgomery from ahs !
Blair is the tough girl in Gossip Girl
Lmao no Blair is the mean girl trope
Theres a video explaning mean girl trope already.
They both belong there
Gossip girl 😒 ugh
@@bgcrp2005 so what would Serena be?
Personally though, I don't mind the "strong female characters" unless they're done right (and nowadays they hardly are). It would also help if people didn't make such a big deal about said character(s) being "strong" and "independent".
Perfect
well when you've been regulated to the idea that you're weak and stupid for most of history, espcially in media. A few decades of making a deal out of it isn't such a bad thing. And I super disagree that good female characters aren't done well today. Most of them are. I honestly just think you haven't come to terms with your own biases yet.
I thought Jo from Little Women was amazing. Very strong, very independent but also yearned for love.
@@mooominpapa I still need to watch that. Glad I've been hearing such glowing reviews, hell even my dad loved it
@@brya9681 It was very good. It only felt like a silly rom com for one scene in the fourth quarter of the film but that was done in purpose. Some of the titular little women are warm, some are cunning. I like how they portrayed both masculine and extremely feminine women as strong. They all had their own hardships they had to overcome.
Wyldstyle receives a very good character arc in the second LEGO Movie that helps to flip this exact trope on its head. Idk how the writers at Warner Bros managed to make two (mostly) great movies out of a corporate cash grab idea but they did an astonishingly good job with the material they were given.
Black woman especially are often in the tough girl lacking with femininity roles
A lot of the same things can be said for the tough male characters. The flawed tough guy (Bruce Willis in Die Hard) or the tragic-back-story tough guy (Batman) are always more interesting and compelling to watch than the generic born-tough guy (most of Arnold Schwarzenegger's early roles), which are usually seen as more mindless entertainment.
Exaxtly.
Honestly i would prefer my daughter to look up to characters like ellen ripley over captain marvel or rey, ripley accepted her weaknesses and used her mind and will power to over come the odds.
This!
That's the point. Every character have flaws like most humans do. The only thing to overcome the character flaws is to challenge their conflicts. Whether a man or woman, humanity is not always a perfect one. And one who is overly perfect is a Mary Sue, an unrealistically overpowered character.
Too bad a lot males can't do that.
@@steamboatwill3.367 Can't do what?
@@steamboatwill3.367Explain please ?
“But the tough girl only becomes interesting when there’s more to her personality and story”
That’s the truth for any character that many people seem to miss. It’s not their physical capability that makes a character interesting- it’s their personality. That’s why people loved the Marvel characters- we see both their moments of strength and vulnerability
It's not true for Carol, though. She is already multifaced, but the Anti-SJWs have pushed the narrative that she isn't.
I think you're missing the point a bit. Male characters can be one dimensional and still popular.
I wanna name some people but also don't want to start a flame war lol 😅
Think of a movie where the guy is basically just strong and cool.
Heck. The terminator is literally a robot.
Oh and the marvel characters you are referring to are dudes. Black widow is the solo tough girl, and ms Marvel was not well received by angry boys who can't handle a woman being a person. Besides that there aren't a lot of female characters that get a lot of screen time. So this isn't a good comparison
@@phillip2169 Wanda, Gamora, and Nebula have good development and Wanda will get even more in Doctor Strange 2. But I get what you mean, the male characters are more dimensional.
@@Aquarius20111 oh yeah Gamora and Nebula did have some good development
Your descriptions of Sarah Connor and Furiosa remind me so much of Mikasa Ackerman from Attack on Titan. Hope you guys can do an analysis video on her manga counterpart (anime version is good, but manga version is better in every way & more nuanced)! She's most known for being a "badass" or embodying pure physical strength. But, it's really her mental strength & resilience, love, trust and compassion that grow throughout the story, alongside her understanding & responsibility for her physical power. She's often inspiring other characters in different ways and a protective figure physically and of reassurance. She values her relationships, has a realist outlook on life, and is often associated w/ family, inner strength & home.
She pushes onward w/ her most valued quality, pride, and her strong free will, a character so necessary in Attack on Titan's cruel world, where characters are constantly facing loss and enduring harsh circumstances, forced to adapt, while losing pieces of them in the process.
I would love to watch a video of you guys doing an analysis of Mikasa once the Attack on Titan (Shingeki no Kyojin) manga is completely released (only 3 more chapters)!! She's a great example of a "tough girl" who greatly values her "feminine" qualities. I think she may be one of my most favorite examples of a really good "strong female character" that challenges many tired tropes.
The @3:45 *Trinity* problem is that too many people:
A. Ignore that the prophecy itself was a lie.
B. Then feel this obligation to assign a single character as the "One" instead of realizing that it was totally a joint effort.
&
C. Did not play the Matrix Online where you would have found out that Neo + Trinity combined equal the one. Not only that, we see Trinity at the very end of the Matrix Online, and not Neo.
Lol what?
Points A & B I can agree with, but no one should have to dive into extra content to get what they want
@@tutumazibuko2510 you are entitled to your opinion, but C isn't really up for debate. You'd have to submit your complaint to the Wachowskis because they approved of the games story as canon & appointed Paul Chadwick who also created a couple of the Matrix comics. I was there from chapter 1.2 until the very end. There was a lot more than just the *Trilogy* 3 films. The Animatrix is an animated film that is probably the most important piece of supplemental material. I'd say the Enter the Matrix console game would be 2nd because the cut scenes were tied in directly to the path of Niobi & Ghost in Reloaded which you can watch on my channel. A close 3rd & arguably 2nd would be the Matrix comics, which originally were posted online and then eventually made in print. And last would be the mentioned Matrix online game which picked up at the end of Revolutions & I'm hoping is the prequel to the Matrix 4, but we'll see.
Think about how many people complain about Reloaded & Revolutions. Not everyone was ready for more, including the studio that produced it. The additional media was hardly advertised.
In retrospect, especially with how popular the Matrix theme has become now, when 20 years ago mainstream society labeled fans nerds for liking the films, I can really appreciate having had the opportunity to *choose* to pursue all of the additional material and information. Because now, I have an understanding that perhaps only 300 people (final number of Mxo users before the servers were shut down) or less could've gotten from the Matrix Universe experience. It's rewarding by itself & I've been in the process of sharing that knowledge of my experience on my channel, and just like I had to want to know more then, those who follow my content want to know more now. The problem is choice.
I love Buffy. She is my favorite childhood character, and Joss is an amazing writer.
That is one of the things that Game of Thrones got so right: The writing of all the women (and men, as well). They go through moments of toughness, vulnerability, flawed behaviour, intelligence, ignorance, ruthlessness, kindness, grace, and humility. Each main character truly develops over time, and they feel like REAL people despite living in a fantasy world.
One of my fave action movie heroines is Evelyn from The Mummy (1999). She’s totally a damsel in distress, and her curiosity and ambition unleash hell on earth-but she’s also ambitious, extremely knowledgeable, and brave-and it’s her knowledge, ultimately, that saves the day-not punching stuff. She was such a breath of fresh air, in those days before I discovered Joss Whedon, lol. I thought her characterization was perfect and so endearing and interesting. To be honest, I’m not sure any modern action/adventure movies have a heroine comparable to her, still.
Me: I’m a bad ass b*tch
Also me: cries when I watch puppy and kitten videos
I enjoy this channel so damn much.
Really appreciate how this video calmly and thoughtfully addresses the problems in the writing with characters like Rey or Captain Marvel, AND offers solutions, without being aggressive or whiny about it like so many other videos.
To bad the greeks didnt take the "powerful women" idea from thier mythology into thier society. The
Vikings however.
@@metalface_villain not really. Women were treated horribly in greek society. In viking society however, over half of the corpses on battlefields were found to be women. They just had better social equality than the greeks.
@@metalface_villain Although to quote one of my favorite childhood series, "if your best shot at equality is Sparta, then you're kinda stuck in pooptown with only a sand shovel."
@@metalface_villain oh, it wasn't meant to be a retort. The topic just reminded me of that line.
Women to die in war is horrible
@@oculus9561 "In viking society however, over half of the corpses on battlefields were found to be women."
Got any sources on that?
Submissive is a female quality? And a good quality? You gotta be kidding me. No one should be submissive, man or woman. Considerate, patient, respectful, loyal.. those are good qualities. Not submissive.
When I think of someone who is submissive, I think that the person is being abused
The Take aka Screenprism tackling girl tropes is a match made in heaven
I love your channel. Your dissection of popular media through a female lens has really helped me recognize the sexism that exists and appreciate when a really standout piece of media excels in leveling the playing field for men and women. There's not a single other channel that I watch for media dissection that does what you do. Thank you.
Your essays are so interesting and well articulated. Thank you very much!
Great video! But part of the issue I think is that often male action heroes themselves are under developed and one dimensional, but because they still conform to the audience's stereotypes, people are willing to overlook that fact. When female action heroes are written the same way as men, then the flaws in the script become more apparent.
I thought it might be interesting to include Hermione in the mix, but she might be too multifaceted to be defined as a rigid archetype.
Hermione is another example of Trinity syndrome. She's smarter, more resourceful, a better witch than Harry and Ron. But in the end she's just there to support the chosen one, helping Harry achieve his destiny. We don't even hear about her dreams or aspirations, just know that she gives them up to follow him.
@@kitkatbar689 Well to be fair, we do have that one scene in the books when she is looking through pamphlets of wizarding jobs and dismisses a couple of them before Harry and Ron start talking about other stuff lol. You would think Hermoine would have researched all of that year 1 and decided on at least a couple of goals.
I was going to say that we dont see too much of Ron's dreams either, but we do. He wants to do whatever it is that will make him loads of galleons and hopefully well known and well liked. His dreams are centered around getting out from under his brothers shadows and from the embarrassment he feels for being poor.
Hermoine hardly even seems to even like her loving parents that much. Hmmm.
@@kitkatbar689 you need to read the books
I saw in an interview somewhere that because the writer of the movies was such a fan of Hermione, he kind of removed her flaws from the book when adapting her to the movie, so she becomes greater than Harry and Ron, but still in need of them? I heard the three even each other out in the book, but I haven't read them.
@@kitkatbar689 But the series is about Harry and not Hermione, so that makes sense. Doesn't it?
When I first watched The Matrix, I immediately fell in love with Trinity lol. I guess that's like a character-crush for a 90's kid, kinda like Sarah Connor and Ripley to 80's kid.
i love how it starts with the title kill bill vol. 1 on the screen, but we actually see Rey from star wars lol
I love your videos! They’re so informative, and they shed light onto so many stereotypes and tropes! And it’s done with grace and nuance, which is beautiful! Thank you so much, The Take!
I think Sansa's strength doesn't get enough recognization. She's the perfect example that you can be as feminine as you want and don't have to be extremely physically strong to be a confident queen.
This started as a cute analysis for me, now it's an instrospection lesson
I dont believe there is such a thing as a female or male quality. When you refer to something like loving your family as a female quality it makes it hard for me to take you seriously.
Seriously? Can you not make the difference between what you or the author of the video personally believe, and what we, as a SOCIETY, believe?
@@ouicertes9764 I dont think the author or society believe that men dont love their family or that women love their family more then men. In the same statement the author sites creativity as a female quality. It's the same thing as when the anti sjws call something like honor or bravery a male quality. It's just kinda silly.
I keep thinking about this for some reason. I dont think I made my point sufficiently clear. I dont really disagree with the points made in this video. I think the arguments they use are lazy. I think it's worse to make a bad argument then it is not to make one. What this is is potential fodder for some shappearo (no, I dont care enough to look how to spell his name) wannabe to own the libs
Also I find your reply absolutely insufferable. Can you not use contractions? Why is the author the only one how gets to have an opinion on media made by some one else? If they didn't want people to comment on their commentary then why didn't they disable the comments? You know they can do that right? Holy crap, why did you capitalize SOCIETY? What makes you think that you, or the author for that matter, is the ultimate authority on what we as a SOCIETY believe? Do you think I'm not a member of SOCIETY? If your going to masturbate, please do it in privet.
I know what you're talking about. That take off these gender genetics and deep down, we're human. But these genders are real. Women traditionally don't build houses because our shoulders and body structure aren't built to make one. Males traditionally don't hunt for edible plants, sew and make art because they're brains are (according to research) usually better off focusing on the bigger ideas (e.g. building houses) rather than focusing on the tiny details. And because a lot of males back then were so biologically equipped for hunting and finding food, likewise we women developed greater areas for empathy and maternity. There IS such a thing as division between those two. To me, not acknowledging the difference is as worse as blatantly pushing the two genders in comfy, little boxes. There's a reason why EQUITY is different from Equality.
I am not a writer, but I´m enjoying this series of videos.
I feel like this videos are opening a third eye on me.
Thanks.
I don’t think Tauriel qualifies as an “only tough” girl as described here. Her warrior skills are a defining part of her personality, but she also shows a lot of soft emotion, and her youthful idealism is what truly sets her apart from most of the other characters.
I actually like most of these characters
Same yet everyone going ham on them it’s like chill
They're saying that every incarnation is bad. They're just examining and acknowledging the nuances of tough girls in storytelling while also acknowledging the potential pitfalls of it if not examined and handled critically. "Remember that it is both possible and even necessary to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of its more problematic or pernicious aspects".
@300bpm You still sounds hurt. Talk to your therapist, hon.
@300bpm Not your baby girl, creep. You keep sounding hurt, I'm worried... forget the therapist, go straight to the hospital. By your babble of "sjw are crazy, they murdered my mom and I can prove it", it must be that your *extremely* fragile Masculine™ sensibilities got hit. 😔
@300bpm And stop stalking people on UA-cam, creep. That's not cute.
Why is it that when man are simply tough we just enjoy the movie, while when a woman is just tough there’s a lack of complexity and boringness to her.
The first type: manic pixie tough girl
You guys really challenge and breakdown the way I view things and I love it.
I been waiting for this for the longest time . I’m really happy your touching on this .
I love this types of video! Makes me realize all the models I have looked up to, it's mostly fake or don't exist. So I don't need to be like anyone on tv
@Moist Gnome Real people often come with some pretty damning flaws though. Just don't be a dick
Well, to be fair, fictional characters don't always need to resemble real people. That's what fiction allows us to do - create stuff that wouldn't otherwise exist. And I see nothing wrong with looking up to impossible characters. As long as you find something worth emulating in a character, then that's enough.
Girls can be tough and feminine in the same time😎
My favorite type 😎
By tough do you imply masculine?
@@dsmyify no.
@@dsmyify emotional toughness is toughness as well
@Mo'mina Makin Exactly
0:10 those tags are wrong
I was about to say!!
Oh thank you!! I stared at the second one for a long time, wondering when she appeared in Kill Bill. Didn't even notice the first tag was wrong.
That was even more amazing than I expected. Wow! And I already like this channel alot. That was a great video essay.
I think your content is brilliant well researched and well spoken
YES I LOVE THESE ANALYSIS VIDEOS
Writers: You're so strong!
Tough Girl Characters: Thank you. But what else?
Writers: What else?
Tough Girl Characters: Is being tough and strong all that matters to you?
Writers: What else is there?
I know this movie! And this reads just as bad as when he said it.
Thank you, Lord Rogers.
I think it’s worth mentioning tough girls can sometimes fall into the trap of being “not like other girls” or are seen completely rejecting all feminine notions on the idea that they are “inferior” or “weak” and frames the women who are not as classically strong as “shallow” or “dumb”
I love all of the videos on this channel! Like seriously, well done!
You guys keep making engaging videos that make me look at pop culture differently. Keep up the good work!
"The movie never considers that Trinity may be the One herself"... I guess they didn't want the franchise to end too quickly. She's awesome.
0:09...
Michonne (Star Wars: The Last Jedi) and Rey (Kill Bill: Vol 1)
The tough girl trope makes sense to me. Most male action heroes have little depth and are one dimensional, why should it be different for women if they're filling the same role in the story?
another amazing analysis video, u guys are killing it!!
Please keep making videos like this--I love them