Yeah, sounds like a potentially cool game, but I wouldn’t be happy if it was BG3. Perhaps I would be more forgiving in those days, when Iso RPGs seemed mostly a thing of a past.
I know it's not first-person but Dark Alliance and Dark Alliance 2 were stripped-down Baldur's Gate games. So a first-person one isn't that far-fetched. Also, Neverwinter Nights was released before this proposal in 2002 and that was 3rd person.
Well, with making Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines, they changed that game series into first person, and it was a great! It had third person for melee combat, and actually I wonder if the decision to use third person for melee combat came from this idea planned for BG3, where it would work the same way.
@@gargamellenoir8460 still, V:TM is one of the best action RPGs ever despite all of its flaws. It shows that a 1st person Baldur's gate could have been a great game.
really like these series of videos you have done its great to get a glimpse into how your time of creating great games has been... would love more devs to do a memoir of there working career....
It does sound like a cool idea for a different way of seeing a D&D setting. I'm glad it didn't become actual Baldur's Gate 3, but would love to play a D&D-setting game like the one you're describing!
Single character only, no way!! 1-2 companions? First person? No intelligence/wisdom? So cool you shared those ideas, they are certainly melting my brain, but it's very interesting to learn about them.
Such an interesting concept for Baldur's Gate 3. I actually would to see you return to Baldur's Gate or The Forgotten Realms. I think we would all love to hear your thoughts or a review on Baldur's Gate 3. Love your videos Tim!
I think this would have been a great game, as long as you didn't call it Baldur's Gate 3 lol. Speaking of, Obsidian is about to release Avowed, which is something similar to what you described?
Can't say I like every choice, but this is getting close to what I wanted at the time, like a Troika response to _Neverwinter Nights._ NWN bust open the door toward bringing the tabletop experience to the PC and growing from the capabilities that automated computation offers, much as MUDs had sought. Yet it still seems, to this day, as if that pathway is abandoned. The best one can do is still basically NWN or something like Roll20.
I like the player-action based shift of alignment, not just towards good/evil but also towards lawful/chaotic. Sounds like an interesting base for a moral system.
It's interesting and sounds fun. I'd love to play it as a DnD RPG game. It sounds like the Neverwinter MMO I played before. That said, not as a Baldur's Gate sequel, because of how different it is gameplay-wise. Personally, I don't think there's much point in making sequels so different they could have a different name and not feel like they're copying from their inspiration.
Seeing that you wear a Bloodlines shirt this time ;), can I ask a question about it? When I was restoring content for the plus patch, I got the feeling that Bloodlines was dumbed down: - Bloodheal was replaced by convenient auto-healing. - The three Bloodbuffs were merged into one that was much more powerful than the PnP version and basically meant you didn't need to raise physical stats at all. - All cop models show GLOCK pistols on their models but they use the weaker .38 pistol in the game. - The hunter inquisitors show swords on their models but they use the weaker combat knife in the game. - Many Asians at the temple use western combat knifes instead of Asian swords which looks rather stupid. Do you remember if and why this was done? Did you playtest the game and notice that you just had to rebalance it or did Activision demand that you make it easier for casual gamers?
Wow, the Jedi Knight series were amazing back then, would definitely play Baldur's Gate 3 👀 EDIT: BTW, in Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy afair you could switch to third-person with weapons that weren't the lightsaber as well.
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of many first person games, particularly RPGs. VTM:Bloodlines worked (more or less, at launch!) but I've always felt that was lightning in a bottle. Not the sort of thing that can be replicated easily... Perhaps this is why the sequel is having so many issues? Anyway, love your work, Tim! And the shirt, as well! Thanks for helping keep me entertained for the past twenty years!
I don’t think this would have been a good Baldur’s Gate. As the companions really made BG2 shine. That and, the dramatic swap in game design would have been hard for BG fans. I think this would have been better as a new D&D title.
This sounds like an interesting kind of blend of Neverwinter Nights and The Elder Scrolls. Not all that Baldur's Gate-ish, but interesting none the less.
Interesting stuff! Would have loved to play a D&D game in a Jedi Outcast-style engine. I think Dark Messiah of Might and Magic came close to this - funny how that was based on the Source engine, same as used for Vampire!
That chain of Temple, Giants, Drow, Demonweb Pits . . . my fondest memories of "real" D&D :) I reall, really wish you'd gotten to make the entire series!
I played first person D&D in D&D online and it was a fun experience, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened when it wasn't shackled to an MMO. However I think using the Baldur's Gate name front-loads a lot of expectations and you immediately put a segment of the fan base offside. Kinda like what happened to that first person XCom game.
It should have been a spin off instead of part 3. Not enough time has passed between the instalments for such drastic changes, like with Fallout 3 for example.
It's interesting that this proposal was post-Neverwinter Nights' release, which also had its own toolkit that allowed you to make your own campaigns (as did NWN2). I miss that feature. More games need toolsets that allow you to either Mod or create your own campaigns. Dragon Age: Origins is the last game I remember that had one but there may have been more since then.
Solasta:Crown of the Magister is a relatively recent (2021) D&D 5E game that has a toolkit for developing maps, multi-level dungeons, and campaigns. I don't know how good it is, as I have never used it, but I think it was their goal from the start to have it, so much so that it feels like the official campaigns are meant to be more "proof of concept" than the meat of the game. There are already a whole bunch of player-made campaigns, but I have not tried them either, yet.
@@JustGrowingUp84 Solasta has been on my wishlist for ages but I've yet to actually purchase it. I have a few Neverwinter Nights and Neverwinter Nights 2 fan-made campaigns (including Baldur's Gate 1) and they're excellent.
@@cmdr.jabozerstorer3968 Be warned that if you place great importance on good writing - good story, characters, dialogue - then Solasta doesn't have that. It's much more like the Icewind Dale games, or like the original campaign of Neverwinter Nights. But the combat is fantastic, and the exploration is pretty okay too.
I loved The Temple of elemental evil. I always wished you had used that same engine for multiple adventures or made a development tool. I think the market for D&D wants D&D rules pure- your game would maybe have been good - but I think if you named it D&D - the community would,not have taken to it. With a new brand - Like.. Divinity… pillars of Eternity … ok. But the Brand D&D wants D&D rules. You guys do great stuff.
What a wild ride that would have been! I'm glad Larian got the rights to make BG3. It is fantastic, and in my opinion, a worthy successor. Do you think any of the original BG creators would be interested in playing BG3 multiplayer with you on stream?
When a read the title for an article about this I thought it sounded like a terrible joke. But looking into it, it probably would have been a fine game, basically the same development that fallout experienced betwren 2 and 3. Especially if it was more Vampire the Masquerade than Fallout 3.
Oh God, that was... Interesting. Would get a LOT of backlash, for sure. But the game system would really work for something not branded D&D, because the ideas are great, but plenty of people wouldn't considered it "D&D".
That was a strange idea. You guys did Fallout and were about to do Bloodlines, so you were really really good at storytelling and roleplay, but wanted to go in a very action-focused direction, more icewind dale than baldur's gate? Doesn't sound like you would have played to your strengths.
Honestly don't see the absolute necessity to switch out of first person for melee combat. It can be done well ie Dark Messiah Of Might & Magic, Condemned Criminal Origins and more recently the indie title Elderborn. All those games had top tier immersion start to finish.
Can't say I'm all that sad it never got made. Nothing wrong with taking a different approach and playing with genres, but this sounds so different that titling it as a numbered sequel to BG1-2 would've alienated a lot of people I think. This could've easily been set in any other generic medieval fantasy world and it wouldn't make a difference, DnD has some really unique and awesome settings like Darksun, Ravenloft and Spelljammer, which would really benefit from boost in popularity a good videogame can give, even in an odd for DnD genre, but Forgotten Realms ain't one of them. I' not a huge BG fan and even I don't like Larian's game calling itself BG3 when it's so unrelated to Bhalspawn's story. Corpos are really just dead-set on that sequel/remake track and afraid of investing in any new IP even when keeping the name brings literally nothing to it.
@@michaelbolland9212 I'm engaging with your comment on a level appropriate to it, I'm not obligated to write responses only when people ask something and sure neither do you.
You may have already spoken about this, but I'd be interested to know how bad this "crunch" we all hear about was. And what is it exactly. Thanks for being a legend, dude.
Sounds like a cool game, but it doesn't really sound like d&d (if that makes sense) That being said, a d&d game built in arcanun's engine sounds cool. I really like being able to easily flip between turn based and real time in arcanum
This sounds cool, but in 2003 this probably would not have been nearly as developed as it sounds. I bet lots of features would not have made it to the end.
Wow there some interesting ideas there. I'm not sure how fitting to the BG context that is (it doesn't immediately evoke BG) but I would have played it :)
I love first person games as much as anyone and i kind of have an issue with going turn based for BG3 but first person would habe been a huge change. Im sure youve worked on a few games i love so i have nothing but love for you but im glad you didnt get your way on this one lol
Thank you Mr. Cain for all those info, I enjoy listening to you. Darklands was an underrated gem in my opinion, with incredibly clunky controls and unfixed bugs, I would love to see a remaster, or a sequel to it. If you haven't play Darklands, I would strongly recommend to give it a try.
Thank you for all these videos, quite insightful. That said, with all due respect this sounds like a dumpster fire. I can see why WotC never pursued this. Some good ideas for an original setting fantasy game but WAY too changed for a D&D game. You would alienate most D&D fans and it's be hard to grab new players as you label it as D&D and a sequel. All that said I wish you went over what the story concept was for your BG3. How from a RP/story perspective you were going to pick up after BG2. Thanks again for these very interesting videos!
< take a sip from your trust vault 13 canteen> Love the decoration behind … in a few you are going to make some playtrougth of Fallout and fallout 2 Ho my you making a playtrougth comentary of the Fallout - Fallout 2 - Fallout new Vegas Ho my I love that idea “ a Fallout tale : a director : creator comentary , coming soon “ Show us how to break the game with pickpocket skill Love the video Take care Heheh
Did not expect such a departure, but a Jedi Outcast game set in Forgotten Realms sounds fun too. A Skyrim-like FR game is more what we want though, haha. Those new Jedi games are too much annoyingly boring traversal maps and not enough fun compared to the old Jedi games that were fun.
Sure, because Larian did well for a modern devs studio. It's not Planescape Torment neither first Fallout level of quality, but let's be honest...looking retrospectively at first Baldur's Gate there were lots of deaf moments in terms of running around the maps without having interesting things to do. I personally think that from the holy trinity BG1, Fallout 1 and PT, the game that aged the worst is actually first BG 😅 Should I rank the RPGs I enjoyed over the years the list would be as follows: 1) Fallout 1 (despite small flaws it deserves that winning spot, and I have memories of it burned into my memory more than the sequel, simply because it was the original game to come out). 2) Planescape Torment (despite the horrible combat system and feeling that the outcome was predetermined I still consider it one of the hugest achievements in terms of storytelling). 3) Gothic 1 (the atmosphere it created was something splendid, also the grim/cynical dialogues tjis game has is something I miss in a lots of other games, negatives being the horrible controls and very simplistic combat system that once you mastered it you could take on very difficult monsters quite early on 😅). 4) Baldur's Gate 1 (I played it after all those mentioned above, so I didn't create such strong ties, it had cool story - but in no way as cool as PT, combat was quirky as well, some locations didn't quite feels enjoyable, the strongest side were the companions and some of the interesting quests) 5) Dragon Age Origins (I actually thought about putting it ahead of BG1 😅 since despite the repetitive and for my taste boring combat, it has good story, near perfectly written companions and NPCs in general, some of the dialogues were really rough (I think you could call an elf he's a trash and to go rot somewhere into corner 😂), overall the settings of unlikely heroes saving the world was quite well made and I cared about the stories of characters more than about the fate of the world in which it took place tbh 😅) 6) Witcher 3 (It's one of the best games, but the reason I put it sixth is that the storyline was more or less set ahead by Mr. Sapkowski and thanks to him it contained the cynical feelings of some dialogues, the social issues reflecting our real life world....CD project simply improved on those aspects created by him, gameplay wise it was okay, I can't say I liked the combat mechanics very much, but it was okay at very least, what I enjoyed the most was actually the atmosphere - the trees bending in wind in White Orchard while also beautiful music playing in background and everything giving the eerily melancholic yet cozy-like embrace...that's something not many other game studios managed to capture, actually I think that it's still very unique to this day. 7) Deus Ex 1 (I loved the storytelling here, but to this date I hate the ugly UI and quirky mechanics, the characters were perfectly written, but the locations could have been made better in some parts of the game, personally this games deserve place in top 10 but some aspects of the game weren't to my like - still that's question more of my taste, I perfectly understand why someone would put it as absolute first place game 8) Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines (because of its uniqueness and also its atmosphere, despite the huge flaws and basically fact that it came out unfinished). 9) Disco Elysium (despite that it's arguably hardly full fletched RPG, but rather and RPG with adventure elements....I mean it has skill tree, but what makes it narrowed is that you play preselected character and also the story drifts towards one ending (maybe few), but why I put it onto list is again due to storytelling, lore and atmosphere - something that good RPGs should definitely have, I mean sure...game doesn't need to be RPG to have strong story - prime example is Red Dead 2 which I consider to be shooter rather than RPGs since it has very few RPG elements IMHO, that's why I don't out it onto this list, but I still think that good RPG should have rich story and lore that will drag you in. 10) DOS2 (for bringing absolutely fresh breath into gaming by giving player near-absolute freedom to achieve his goals, story is okay - nothing to write home about, companions could have been written much better but it's decent, music is phenomenal and I return to the OST from time to time to lsiten to it on its own. This one RPG I put here to point out that sometimes RPG mechanics when done right way so that they're enjoyable can win over strong storytelling, it leaves me wishing for the combination - sandbox like mechanics by Larian and storyline by Interplay (like PT). Many others could have been put on this list, since i love so much more RPG titles, but these exact ones were defining for me.
This would have had been OK for a new IP, but having rolled the bones since the late 70s, these kind of changes shouldn't be done to any title sporting the D&D name. If this would have happened to my beloved Baldur's Gate series, I would have never forgiven you/the company/anyone associated with this! lol
This sounds like a bad rpg, like really bad. Taking away all the RPG elements for a basic hack and slash system. I don't think these types of games have ever done well when trying to ursurp out the deep RPG's from the setting of real RPG's.
I actually prefer first person and third person over top down (and really hope BG3 from Larian will have well implemented third person camera with its controller setup) but if this came to pass, it should probably be called Baldur's Gate: Something, because calling it BG3 would have made some people come at Troika with pitchforks. Of course, Bloodlines is also first person and happens to be one of the best games ever so I have no doubt this BG game could have been fantastic too.
No disrespect at all as I adore Arcanum, Vampire and TOEE, but I am glad this never happened. This to me at least sounds nothing like a sequel to Baldur's Gate, and not something I would like to be attached to the core BG series. This has very little appeal to my taste in cRPGs. I am sure that if made it would have been fun, but this does not sound like a continuation of the Baldurs Gate series.
I sort of agree with you. I barely remember working on this proposal, and I do see it as a big departure from BG and from my past games. I think it was a reaction to Temple, which we were finishing at the time. I had just made a game with a slavish devotion to the original source material, and now I wanted to do something different. I was never big on making sequels anyway.
Wow this will blow up Tim it just appeared on pcgamer 😁 maybe you can give us a few videos on other games and how you'd like to reimagine them. Would love to hear your take on EverQuest 3
What? Baldur's Gate III with Arcanum Tools??? Shut up and take my money!!!! (Not sure about that first person, real time though... but hey... everything you guys did in the early-to-mid-2000's was lightning in a bottle)
Lots of cool ideas, but man, you really dodged a bullet there:D
I was really surprised when that Pathfinder ARPG actually funded.
Yeah, sounds like a potentially cool game, but I wouldn’t be happy if it was BG3. Perhaps I would be more forgiving in those days, when Iso RPGs seemed mostly a thing of a past.
Making Baldur's Gate into a competitive multiplayer FPS game is... certainly an idea.
a terrible one
You were planning to change Baldurs Gate into a first person game? You monsters!
I know, I know!
I know it's not first-person but Dark Alliance and Dark Alliance 2 were stripped-down Baldur's Gate games. So a first-person one isn't that far-fetched. Also, Neverwinter Nights was released before this proposal in 2002 and that was 3rd person.
Well, with making Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines, they changed that game series into first person, and it was a great! It had third person for melee combat, and actually I wonder if the decision to use third person for melee combat came from this idea planned for BG3, where it would work the same way.
@@Hrimstal Vampire: The Masquerade isn't a game series, it's TTRPG and had one action game, that frankly wasn't really representative of the tabletop.
@@gargamellenoir8460 still, V:TM is one of the best action RPGs ever despite all of its flaws. It shows that a 1st person Baldur's gate could have been a great game.
really like these series of videos you have done its great to get a glimpse into how your time of creating great games has been... would love more devs to do a memoir of there working career....
It does sound like a cool idea for a different way of seeing a D&D setting. I'm glad it didn't become actual Baldur's Gate 3, but would love to play a D&D-setting game like the one you're describing!
Well, there IS Descent to Undermountain. It's quite shit though
Single character only, no way!! 1-2 companions? First person? No intelligence/wisdom? So cool you shared those ideas, they are certainly melting my brain, but it's very interesting to learn about them.
Such an interesting concept for Baldur's Gate 3. I actually would to see you return to Baldur's Gate or The Forgotten Realms.
I think we would all love to hear your thoughts or a review on Baldur's Gate 3.
Love your videos Tim!
I think this would have been a great game, as long as you didn't call it Baldur's Gate 3 lol. Speaking of, Obsidian is about to release Avowed, which is something similar to what you described?
Can't say I like every choice, but this is getting close to what I wanted at the time, like a Troika response to _Neverwinter Nights._
NWN bust open the door toward bringing the tabletop experience to the PC and growing from the capabilities that automated computation offers, much as MUDs had sought. Yet it still seems, to this day, as if that pathway is abandoned. The best one can do is still basically NWN or something like Roll20.
Thank god that thing never saw light
I like the player-action based shift of alignment, not just towards good/evil but also towards lawful/chaotic. Sounds like an interesting base for a moral system.
i think 13 year old me, having been a big fan of baldurs gate 1 and 2, would of hated this, but this is super interesting to hear about.
Would've or would have. Never "would of."
I'm pretty sure most people would have hated this.
Would love to see a Tim Cain livestream playthrough on BG3!
Now imagine if, in a twist of fate, after making BG3, Larian Studios ends up getting the license to Arcanum and making a sequel for it.
*In Jocko Willink's voice:* NO.
Nah. Ot would've been nice if Black Isle got to make BG3. But Interplay imploded before it could be made.
@@Mirokuofnite It would have been even better if Troika survived and made IWD3, NWN3 and BG3. The Big Three Trio, by Troika.
I would ship it.
Cool idea, but I'd much rather have DOS 3.
Tim, will you try out Larian's Baldur's Gate 3?
Definitely!
It's interesting and sounds fun. I'd love to play it as a DnD RPG game. It sounds like the Neverwinter MMO I played before.
That said, not as a Baldur's Gate sequel, because of how different it is gameplay-wise. Personally, I don't think there's much point in making sequels so different they could have a different name and not feel like they're copying from their inspiration.
Yeah, I would have loved to see this game, but with a different name. Or, if it wasn't accepted as a D&D game, then as its own thing.
It is an RPG.....
Love the early uploads. Great to enjoy my coffee with
Seeing that you wear a Bloodlines shirt this time ;), can I ask a question about it? When I was restoring content for the plus patch, I got the feeling that Bloodlines was dumbed down:
- Bloodheal was replaced by convenient auto-healing.
- The three Bloodbuffs were merged into one that was much more powerful than the PnP version and basically meant you didn't need to raise physical stats at all.
- All cop models show GLOCK pistols on their models but they use the weaker .38 pistol in the game.
- The hunter inquisitors show swords on their models but they use the weaker combat knife in the game.
- Many Asians at the temple use western combat knifes instead of Asian swords which looks rather stupid.
Do you remember if and why this was done? Did you playtest the game and notice that you just had to rebalance it or did Activision demand that you make it easier for casual gamers?
Came back home from work just in time for tim uploads a video for Friday night, nice!
Rewatching this again. Suddenly I’m reminded of Avowed to Pillars sounds the same as this BG3 proposal to previous titles.
The specific design decisions all make a lot of sense Tim.
Wow, the Jedi Knight series were amazing back then, would definitely play Baldur's Gate 3
👀
EDIT: BTW, in Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy afair you could switch to third-person with weapons that weren't the lightsaber as well.
Thx god you guys didn't, larian is doing what no other company can possibly dream of making, and then even more.
i would love to see a chat between you and Todd Howard, talking about fallout and game development in general!
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of many first person games, particularly RPGs. VTM:Bloodlines worked (more or less, at launch!) but I've always felt that was lightning in a bottle. Not the sort of thing that can be replicated easily... Perhaps this is why the sequel is having so many issues? Anyway, love your work, Tim! And the shirt, as well! Thanks for helping keep me entertained for the past twenty years!
Here's hoping the upcoming game can fill the shoes of its predecessors.
It feels so different, it's like BG in name only.
The upcoming bg3 does not look interesting. And i love bg1 and bg2 so much ive made my own balance mod for both.
@@consonaadversapars Yet it's more D&D than pretty much any previous D&D game ever released.
@@cmdr.jabozerstorer3968 I don't want "more DnD game", I want "more Baldur's Gate game". Besides, I find 5e to be probably the most boring edition.
@@fredrik3880 What's the balance about?
Love the Jedi Outcast name drop! Love that game.
I don’t think this would have been a good Baldur’s Gate. As the companions really made BG2 shine.
That and, the dramatic swap in game design would have been hard for BG fans.
I think this would have been better as a new D&D title.
This sounds like an interesting kind of blend of Neverwinter Nights and The Elder Scrolls. Not all that Baldur's Gate-ish, but interesting none the less.
Interesting stuff! Would have loved to play a D&D game in a Jedi Outcast-style engine. I think Dark Messiah of Might and Magic came close to this - funny how that was based on the Source engine, same as used for Vampire!
This sounds pretty cool. i would've loved to play it!
I really want to play this Troika Baldur's Gate.
Well four months later I do wonder what you think of BG3 as done by Larian!
Thanks for sharing Tim.
That chain of Temple, Giants, Drow, Demonweb Pits . . . my fondest memories of "real" D&D :) I reall, really wish you'd gotten to make the entire series!
If this had shipped, you guys probably would have had From Software beaten to the punch with the multiplayer component.
I played first person D&D in D&D online and it was a fun experience, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened when it wasn't shackled to an MMO. However I think using the Baldur's Gate name front-loads a lot of expectations and you immediately put a segment of the fan base offside. Kinda like what happened to that first person XCom game.
Timothy feels like the video game version of Steve lehto
I would love to see this type of game be made. Even if it isn't a Baldur's Gate game. It would be cool to play.
It should have been a spin off instead of part 3. Not enough time has passed between the instalments for such drastic changes, like with Fallout 3 for example.
I think this would've been pretty rad to see. With the direction RPGs were going in at the time making it an action RPG makes perfect sense to me.
It's interesting that this proposal was post-Neverwinter Nights' release, which also had its own toolkit that allowed you to make your own campaigns (as did NWN2).
I miss that feature. More games need toolsets that allow you to either Mod or create your own campaigns. Dragon Age: Origins is the last game I remember that had one but there may have been more since then.
Solasta:Crown of the Magister is a relatively recent (2021) D&D 5E game that has a toolkit for developing maps, multi-level dungeons, and campaigns.
I don't know how good it is, as I have never used it, but I think it was their goal from the start to have it, so much so that it feels like the official campaigns are meant to be more "proof of concept" than the meat of the game.
There are already a whole bunch of player-made campaigns, but I have not tried them either, yet.
@@JustGrowingUp84 Solasta has been on my wishlist for ages but I've yet to actually purchase it.
I have a few Neverwinter Nights and Neverwinter Nights 2 fan-made campaigns (including Baldur's Gate 1) and they're excellent.
@@cmdr.jabozerstorer3968 Be warned that if you place great importance on good writing - good story, characters, dialogue - then Solasta doesn't have that.
It's much more like the Icewind Dale games, or like the original campaign of Neverwinter Nights.
But the combat is fantastic, and the exploration is pretty okay too.
I loved The Temple of elemental evil. I always wished you had used that same engine for multiple adventures or made a development tool. I think the market for D&D wants D&D rules pure- your game would maybe have been good - but I think if you named it D&D - the community would,not have taken to it. With a new brand - Like.. Divinity… pillars of Eternity … ok. But the Brand D&D wants D&D rules. You guys do great stuff.
A first person D&D game would be great, especially something along the lines of Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, but with D&D races and rules.
Hi Tim.
What a wild ride that would have been! I'm glad Larian got the rights to make BG3. It is fantastic, and in my opinion, a worthy successor. Do you think any of the original BG creators would be interested in playing BG3 multiplayer with you on stream?
When a read the title for an article about this I thought it sounded like a terrible joke. But looking into it, it probably would have been a fine game, basically the same development that fallout experienced betwren 2 and 3. Especially if it was more Vampire the Masquerade than Fallout 3.
Oh God, that was... Interesting. Would get a LOT of backlash, for sure. But the game system would really work for something not branded D&D, because the ideas are great, but plenty of people wouldn't considered it "D&D".
have you ever considered being a mall santa claus
That was a strange idea. You guys did Fallout and were about to do Bloodlines, so you were really really good at storytelling and roleplay, but wanted to go in a very action-focused direction, more icewind dale than baldur's gate? Doesn't sound like you would have played to your strengths.
OMG i love that shirt
Wait charisma was considered a physical attribute in earlier editions?
Honestly don't see the absolute necessity to switch out of first person for melee combat. It can be done well ie Dark Messiah Of Might & Magic, Condemned Criminal Origins and more recently the indie title Elderborn. All those games had top tier immersion start to finish.
it could have been a potentially good game, but the BG3 name would have been highly controversial in an action game
I wonder if you guys had the Fallout license and continue to work on it would it eventually become a first person game
If I'm not mistaken there actually were plans to make a fps fallout by interplay
I am far from being a DnD or BG grognard... but dayum
Can't say I'm all that sad it never got made. Nothing wrong with taking a different approach and playing with genres, but this sounds so different that titling it as a numbered sequel to BG1-2 would've alienated a lot of people I think. This could've easily been set in any other generic medieval fantasy world and it wouldn't make a difference, DnD has some really unique and awesome settings like Darksun, Ravenloft and Spelljammer, which would really benefit from boost in popularity a good videogame can give, even in an odd for DnD genre, but Forgotten Realms ain't one of them. I' not a huge BG fan and even I don't like Larian's game calling itself BG3 when it's so unrelated to Bhalspawn's story. Corpos are really just dead-set on that sequel/remake track and afraid of investing in any new IP even when keeping the name brings literally nothing to it.
There's been rumours it might actually be heavily related to Bhaal.
Hellooooo dragon age origins, why did you change for sequels omggggg
@@michaelbolland9212 never played it, don't care
@@haroldshea3282 thanks I didn't ask
@@michaelbolland9212 I'm engaging with your comment on a level appropriate to it, I'm not obligated to write responses only when people ask something and sure neither do you.
You may have already spoken about this, but I'd be interested to know how bad this "crunch" we all hear about was. And what is it exactly. Thanks for being a legend, dude.
Sounds like a cool game, but it doesn't really sound like d&d (if that makes sense)
That being said, a d&d game built in arcanun's engine sounds cool. I really like being able to easily flip between turn based and real time in arcanum
This sounds cool, but in 2003 this probably would not have been nearly as developed as it sounds. I bet lots of features would not have made it to the end.
Hey Tim are you going to play BG3
Wow there some interesting ideas there. I'm not sure how fitting to the BG context that is (it doesn't immediately evoke BG) but I would have played it :)
I love first person games as much as anyone and i kind of have an issue with going turn based for BG3 but first person would habe been a huge change. Im sure youve worked on a few games i love so i have nothing but love for you but im glad you didnt get your way on this one lol
But... Why apply this to Baldurs Gate and not Die by the Sword?
Thank you Mr. Cain for all those info, I enjoy listening to you.
Darklands was an underrated gem in my opinion, with incredibly clunky controls and unfixed bugs, I would love to see a remaster, or a sequel to it. If you haven't play Darklands, I would strongly recommend to give it a try.
Kinda sounds like what Avowed looks like now 😅
Thank you for all these videos, quite insightful. That said, with all due respect this sounds like a dumpster fire. I can see why WotC never pursued this. Some good ideas for an original setting fantasy game but WAY too changed for a D&D game. You would alienate most D&D fans and it's be hard to grab new players as you label it as D&D and a sequel.
All that said I wish you went over what the story concept was for your BG3. How from a RP/story perspective you were going to pick up after BG2. Thanks again for these very interesting videos!
< take a sip from your trust vault 13 canteen>
Love the decoration behind … in a few you are going to make some playtrougth of Fallout and fallout 2
Ho my
you making a playtrougth comentary of the Fallout - Fallout 2 - Fallout new Vegas
Ho my I love that idea
“ a Fallout tale : a director : creator comentary , coming soon “
Show us how to break the game with pickpocket skill
Love the video
Take care
Heheh
To whom did you send the proposal? It seems like a very expensive game to make so you would need a huge publisher to back you up.
It was probably sent to Atari, or maybe Wizards of the Coast. The proposal itself doesn't mention it.
OMG what am I looking at?!! 🤩Thank you!!!
I love you Tim, but would've hated this!
Hi Tim!
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Did not expect such a departure, but a Jedi Outcast game set in Forgotten Realms sounds fun too. A Skyrim-like FR game is more what we want though, haha.
Those new Jedi games are too much annoyingly boring traversal maps and not enough fun compared to the old Jedi games that were fun.
The game comes out in 2 hours. Anyobody playing?
No.
Sure, because Larian did well for a modern devs studio. It's not Planescape Torment neither first Fallout level of quality, but let's be honest...looking retrospectively at first Baldur's Gate there were lots of deaf moments in terms of running around the maps without having interesting things to do.
I personally think that from the holy trinity BG1, Fallout 1 and PT, the game that aged the worst is actually first BG 😅
Should I rank the RPGs I enjoyed over the years the list would be as follows:
1) Fallout 1 (despite small flaws it deserves that winning spot, and I have memories of it burned into my memory more than the sequel, simply because it was the original game to come out).
2) Planescape Torment (despite the horrible combat system and feeling that the outcome was predetermined I still consider it one of the hugest achievements in terms of storytelling).
3) Gothic 1 (the atmosphere it created was something splendid, also the grim/cynical dialogues tjis game has is something I miss in a lots of other games, negatives being the horrible controls and very simplistic combat system that once you mastered it you could take on very difficult monsters quite early on 😅).
4) Baldur's Gate 1 (I played it after all those mentioned above, so I didn't create such strong ties, it had cool story - but in no way as cool as PT, combat was quirky as well, some locations didn't quite feels enjoyable, the strongest side were the companions and some of the interesting quests)
5) Dragon Age Origins (I actually thought about putting it ahead of BG1 😅 since despite the repetitive and for my taste boring combat, it has good story, near perfectly written companions and NPCs in general, some of the dialogues were really rough (I think you could call an elf he's a trash and to go rot somewhere into corner 😂), overall the settings of unlikely heroes saving the world was quite well made and I cared about the stories of characters more than about the fate of the world in which it took place tbh 😅)
6) Witcher 3 (It's one of the best games, but the reason I put it sixth is that the storyline was more or less set ahead by Mr. Sapkowski and thanks to him it contained the cynical feelings of some dialogues, the social issues reflecting our real life world....CD project simply improved on those aspects created by him, gameplay wise it was okay, I can't say I liked the combat mechanics very much, but it was okay at very least, what I enjoyed the most was actually the atmosphere - the trees bending in wind in White Orchard while also beautiful music playing in background and everything giving the eerily melancholic yet cozy-like embrace...that's something not many other game studios managed to capture, actually I think that it's still very unique to this day.
7) Deus Ex 1 (I loved the storytelling here, but to this date I hate the ugly UI and quirky mechanics, the characters were perfectly written, but the locations could have been made better in some parts of the game, personally this games deserve place in top 10 but some aspects of the game weren't to my like - still that's question more of my taste, I perfectly understand why someone would put it as absolute first place game
8) Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines (because of its uniqueness and also its atmosphere, despite the huge flaws and basically fact that it came out unfinished).
9) Disco Elysium (despite that it's arguably hardly full fletched RPG, but rather and RPG with adventure elements....I mean it has skill tree, but what makes it narrowed is that you play preselected character and also the story drifts towards one ending (maybe few), but why I put it onto list is again due to storytelling, lore and atmosphere - something that good RPGs should definitely have, I mean sure...game doesn't need to be RPG to have strong story - prime example is Red Dead 2 which I consider to be shooter rather than RPGs since it has very few RPG elements IMHO, that's why I don't out it onto this list, but I still think that good RPG should have rich story and lore that will drag you in.
10) DOS2 (for bringing absolutely fresh breath into gaming by giving player near-absolute freedom to achieve his goals, story is okay - nothing to write home about, companions could have been written much better but it's decent, music is phenomenal and I return to the OST from time to time to lsiten to it on its own. This one RPG I put here to point out that sometimes RPG mechanics when done right way so that they're enjoyable can win over strong storytelling, it leaves me wishing for the combination - sandbox like mechanics by Larian and storyline by Interplay (like PT).
Many others could have been put on this list, since i love so much more RPG titles, but these exact ones were defining for me.
This would have had been OK for a new IP, but having rolled the bones since the late 70s, these kind of changes shouldn't be done to any title sporting the D&D name. If this would have happened to my beloved Baldur's Gate series, I would have never forgiven you/the company/anyone associated with this! lol
Glad it didn’t happen lol, but at least those ideas can maybe go somewhere else.
You know there are so many people who suffer from serious motionsickness are forced out of first person games.
This sounds like a bad rpg, like really bad. Taking away all the RPG elements for a basic hack and slash system. I don't think these types of games have ever done well when trying to ursurp out the deep RPG's from the setting of real RPG's.
control only 1 character is good, i have tired of controlling a team in RPG games
lol i think the opposite, i like party based games (but it only works in isometric settings not in first person or third person perspective)
cool cool
Would you have allowed bear romance in your version?
I'm sorry Tim but that does not sound fun.
I'm glad Larian made it instead.
I always loved (and still love) Troika games, but yikes .....no. Glad that didn't happen.
I actually prefer first person and third person over top down (and really hope BG3 from Larian will have well implemented third person camera with its controller setup) but if this came to pass, it should probably be called Baldur's Gate: Something, because calling it BG3 would have made some people come at Troika with pitchforks. Of course, Bloodlines is also first person and happens to be one of the best games ever so I have no doubt this BG game could have been fantastic too.
This is one of those games I am glad didn't happen lol
Will you make a video about how you guys forgot to give Outer Worlds a soul? What happened?
Age? The new era of creative bankruptcy?
@@lrinfi sorry I thought he was the game director.
@@lrinfinever understood the elden ring critiques. seems like everyone just wanted a reskinned ds3 or new bloodborne which is not in their hands
So you basically proposed make semi-WoW dnd game, before even Wow was a thing. Genius, as always.
This doesn't sound like WoW to me.
No offense, but I’m so glad your version of Baldur’s Gate 3 didn’t get made haha
sounds terrible - but thanks for sharing, super interesting!
No offense but I think the way BG 3 is going right now would have probably end up better that your proposal.
It feels like Dark Alliance more than Baldur's Gate. DA is so uninspired though. They should have contacted you instead.
At least Dark Alliance is specifically meant to be a spin-off of sorts, as a "Baldur's Gate 3" this would have been very bad
No disrespect at all as I adore Arcanum, Vampire and TOEE, but I am glad this never happened. This to me at least sounds nothing like a sequel to Baldur's Gate, and not something I would like to be attached to the core BG series. This has very little appeal to my taste in cRPGs. I am sure that if made it would have been fun, but this does not sound like a continuation of the Baldurs Gate series.
The BGs were overrated anyways
Larian's game doesn't resemble Bioware's BGs either, although I agree with plaidchuck that these games are overrated.
@@wszczebrzeszynyeah i like Larians stuff mosrly, but when i revisit Biowares games it just sticks out how formulaic they were
@@plaidchuck well, depends upon your age, for me when they came out they were simply the best rpg's ever made.
I sort of agree with you. I barely remember working on this proposal, and I do see it as a big departure from BG and from my past games. I think it was a reaction to Temple, which we were finishing at the time. I had just made a game with a slavish devotion to the original source material, and now I wanted to do something different.
I was never big on making sequels anyway.
Wow this will blow up Tim it just appeared on pcgamer 😁 maybe you can give us a few videos on other games and how you'd like to reimagine them. Would love to hear your take on EverQuest 3
I want that Tshirt, that's the only interesting thing of the video for me. 😜
What? Baldur's Gate III with Arcanum Tools??? Shut up and take my money!!!! (Not sure about that first person, real time though... but hey... everything you guys did in the early-to-mid-2000's was lightning in a bottle)
Ghee man :-D sorry but glad you did not get it :-D imagine the backlash and stuff :-D
A great pitch for an action RPG but an awful one for the Baldur's Gate brand 😁
Interesting concept but oof not for Baldur’s Gate game. Can’t be mad though, The real BG3 is just Divinity 3 anyway.