The Case For High INT Fighters in Dungeons and Dragons
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- Опубліковано 28 лис 2024
- Tired of playing the low-to-average intelligence fighting type? Why not put your high score in Intelligence and play a genius bruiser for once? Oh that's right, there's no mechanical benefit for doing that. But there are so many examples of genius level stabby bois, from the master tactician to the sword master to the crouching badass and much more. Sure you have to twist some rules or worse ROLEPLAY but if it expands the game, then it's better for the game.
"You can't counterspell a warhammer"
-Mr. Welch, 2023
Protection from normal missiles 😉
Bonus if you go first, a good fighter already had a surprise round, in the words of Shadowruner, 'GEEK THE MAGE!''
" Few players have written their doctorate thesis on the 2nd Punic War ... Except for Twilight 2000 players because those guys are freaks."
'So.. it is war, then.'
... You're a Twilight 2000 player. It was war either way. Now you're just mildly offended as well.
So I shared the bit about “the Gandalf” with someone and their comment struck me:
“The only thing magical about Gandalf was his precognition.”
You’re not in melee with a wizard, you’re in melee with a Jedi.
14:03 "Everything in her pack or on her purpose has a person" I love your videos, Mr Welch
The Emperor doesn't appreciate the fact that I rerouted the river that feeds his personal baths to drown out a minor goblin encampment.
I feel like you could've mentioned zatoichi; he can't see, so he must test his intelligence with every single strike, that's why he only needs 1
The Grim Hollow setting for 5e has a class called 'Monster Hunter' that is focussed on a character who hunts monsters using knowledge of monsters.
I'd argue that the Weston is a rogue/fighter multiclass with more emphasis in rogue. The Gandalf however, sounds ridiculously fun.
As long as everyone is tossing out examples of hi-INT fighters, than I think Sam Vimes of the Watch deserves ay least an honorable mention. Good in a scrap, sure; but he knows that flashy toys and fancy maneuvers arent what it takes to get home. His favorite weapon is whatever ends the fight most quickly. On top of that; he knows how to utilize the talents of his watchmen to their fullest potential, how to keep his enemies off-balance that sometimes a fight just becomes untenable for them, and generally how to best turn a situation towards his advantage.
And the knowledge of having a good battlecry that will freeze his enemies in their tracks... "WHERE IS MY COW!"
The dueling skill from the 3.5 Legend of the Five Rings was intelligence base. I can see some kind of fighter variant/subclass that, to keep things simple, can use his INT bonus to alter or replace certain stuff, like initiative, to-hit, or whatever. Or perhaps with a feat or ability to add your INT to someone else's roll. Using INT to move people around the initiative order.
Also, let's add a variant of the Weston and Maximus could be the Ciaphas Cain (HERO OF THE IMPERIUM), with the Int and Charisma.
I would also add that this is why the Command skill in Star Wars d6 is so important, and why Thrawn's (oooh, Thrawn-type, the Maximus with the added Witcher type for studying the hell out of opponents, with a focus on psychology) massive skill value is justified.
Interestingly, Spoony has discussed doing the opposite of playing the Gandalf: if you are playing a wizard, dress like a fighter. Carry a sword, even if you can't use it, dress in light armor. Maybe dress your staff up so it looks like a halberd or a pitchfork or something. Don't let the enemy realize you are the one who can cast Cloud Kill. Don't make them focus on you. Take them by surprise.
Two examples from The Order of The Stick: Roy Greenhilt and Tarquin.
I need to catch up on that. Last I read was a scene with the wall of doors.
@@treita They've been at the wall of doors for over 6 months in real time the plot is moving at a snails pace
The Gandalf is especially good as an Eldritch Knight (to really sell the “Wizard” lie) or as a Paladin pretending to be a Wizard. The Gandalf also has elements of some of the other types as well: His intelligence isn’t just for deception, he also speaks multiple languages and has studied a variety of subjects both common and obscure. He may only have a limited number of spells at his disposal, but he knows everything about everything.
Another good option is the Steve Rogers. This is essentially the Maximus on steroids. He’s not just an outstanding general, he can adapt his strategies to new Allie’s and new situations he’s never seen before. He also has a high charisma score to get people he’s just met to follow his instructions.
You forgot the Paul Atradies psychic warrior of the desert planet dune blows up stuff with his mind rides the powerful sandworm! and destroys the enemies resources though brute strength and subterfuge! 😎
I wondered if Gandalf was going to be in here. I've read your article from a few years back arguing that he's a fighter, not a wizard. Great video, keep up the good work sir!
He is. Gandalf _clearly_ has _at least_ Two-Weapon Fighting and plenty of points in Use Magic Device
Gandalf is a Fighter. Wizard is his _race_ - or rather, the common tongue word for his race. He can, at least, counterspell the Balrog's Knock. He can also use pinecones as a component for a Fireball spell, but is definitely more Fighter than spellcaster.
Legolas was also an elf, but not a spellcaster. "All elves are both a wizard and a warrior" is a weird direction for D&D to take in OD&D and has run with ever since.
To be fair to Gandalf, he’s an Archon or Solar, not a fighter/wizard; as in the further lore of the legendarium the Istari were the servants of the lesser gods of Middle Earth. As in the Balrog, Sauron, and the Istari were all the same species, just vastly different in power levels and appearances.
Legolas was a wood elf, who have different magical/mystical abilities compared to other elves of the setting.
It makes perfect sense for El Santo to build a time machine to fight vampires. Even if you kill just a few Antedivulians, that's millions of vampires that won't exist.
Especially if you get them when they were freshly turned, walk in with a vaguely sharp stick. Stab, walk away, vampires in the present day go away.
INT is in dire need of rework in general. If you're not a wizard or some such, INT is almost never useful because it affects almost nothing that's not a casting modifier. You can be a levitating gigabrain, but your titanic intellect does nothing to protect you from subversion by a 2nd level charm spell. Even the MEDICINE skill is tied to wisdom, because as we all know, being a competent medical doctor has everything to do with common sense and folksy trueisms and nothing to do with your ability to learn and recall new information. INT saves never come up except if you're fighting a pair of specific monsters from the monster manual, your critical thinking skills, understanding of logic and ability to recall important information that may contradict a statement has no bearing on your ability to know if you're being lied to or mislead. Nobody invents, creates or builds things if their name isn't on the cover of the supplement, so unless you want to learn how to set something on fire, it's always better to be strong than smart.
I wish they'd fix and expand this, instead of reworking shit that was completely fine for decades.
I think the problem with point buy isn't that point buy incentivizes you to min max your stats, but that the game doesn't give you adequate incentive to not do that. If you let your players assign their randomly rolled stats (you should, in my opinion) they do the exact same thing. Every stat should do something for every character. There is a CRPG called Pillars of Eternity that handles that fairly well, although, I am unsure how easily that would be converted into rules for a tabletop game.
Also,I have a character idea. The time traveler who was flung into the past. Armed with an energy pistol and a Lazer letter opener. He works to get back home.
Only works if he has a luchador mask he never takes off
@@Mr_Welch true, but if one absconds with a silk pillow case and some dye, you can make a luchador mask.
From edition to edition, I kept feeling fighters and other melee type characters should be able to add their Int bonus on their prepared attack actions and, maybe, on oppurtunity attacks.
Now you too can become the very model of a modern major general!
With information vegetable, animal, and mineral
Glass beads, "That's not a plan. It's a Loony Tune."
With this logic Sherlock Homes could be an amazing fighter.
You're not trying to get them to slip and fall but to break the glass under the foot Letting everybody in earshot know someone's coming. And if they're not wearing shoes even better
The Sanjuro or the Ogami Itto is what I want to play as Fighter..but I wound up playing the Wesley...as a Rogue.
I play in 2e, and your thoughts on using it for tactics, knowledge, and prediction are spot on with how I use a high int on fighter types (or really anyone).
Now this is something we both firmly agree on. Unlike 4E.
I liked Warblade in 3.5 as the "fighter" class where high int was rewarded.
Also, in my BECMI games I've had a number of players play high int fighters simply because that's how the dice landed, but it helps that ability scores really don't have that big of an impact in BECMI so your stats don't have to be optimal. I have personally played a magic-user with 16 str and only 9 int, and a fighter with only 9 str but 18 int, and had a blast both times and neither character was useless.
EDIT: "Knowledge (War)" was one of the suggested knowledge options from 3e Oriental Adventures, and its description included "military history, strategy, tactics, war machines". Its worth noting that the Knowledge categories listed in the PHB were not the only options, just examples.
5th ed gives you 3 reasons to have a high int fighter it's called Eldrich Knight, Arcane Archer and Psi Warrior if you have high int it greatly improves how those three subclasses work and a good chunk of the things you suggest the Battle Master gets as part of their kit
Can you do one of these for each class?
Well the basic problem is that warrior-class characters are about the "outdated" part of Dungeons and Dragons in that its a battle game.
Ability Scores are passive abilities. Having a high X doesnt make you Y class.
Intelligence isnt knowledge of tactics and strategy. I remember in BECMI rules how Intelligence determined if your character could even read or write. Knowledge of strategy requires something more like training and experience that isnt covered by raw stats.
The Marshall from 3rd edition and the Warlord from 4th edition act as smart warriors. The concept is there, but when picking a Fighter youre choosing *not* to play with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, not just as dump stats, but lack of actual proficiency in those fields.
Multiclassing with other classes in 3rd editions allows branching.
By 5th edition the Fighter still doesnt gain any real benefit from mental stats. Theyre still there to hit stuff. There are archetypes, races, feats to allow more Skill Proficiencies.
Mister Welch! For shame on you! You forgot an important Smart Fighter type! The Jackie Chan! When a fight breaks out in a room his weapon of choice is the entire room! He can outpace all his opponents and outfight them with a combination of very high skill levels and lateral thinking. Watch the ladder fight and just TRY to tell me that wasn't brilliant! Your shirt is a whip! The chairs are maces, the table is your shield! The Ladder is your quarterstaff, cover and so much more!
Everything that you’re talking about is completely dependent upon having players who care that much about their characters as they do their jobs, families, etc. Sadly, at mine and my players age, most of us just enjoy getting together, having a couple of beers and rolling dice.
I'm playing a moderately intelligent barbarian ancient Greek analogue setting philosopher
Did you make Diogenes?
@@thebolas000 no, he's Plato
I was pleasantly surprised to see Captain Kronos. I made up this feat for my game:
Tactician: Battle Master Fighter 8th level. Intelligence 14+. You are a seasoned battle commander, excelling at leading small units.
-You have proficiency in Initiative checks. After Initiative has been determined, but before the first participant takes their turn, you may switch initiatives with any one character on your side of the conflict within 30' of you, provided they are willing.
-Rallying Cry: Once per short rest you may issue a rallying cry to your allies as a Bonus Action. All allies within 30' may use their Reaction to take a move action towards you without taking AoO, ending their movement adjacent to you if possible. Each ally also gains temporary hit points equal to your Fighter level.
-When you grant another character a superiority die roll with your maneuvers, or roll a die for them, the minimum result equals your proficiency bonus.
-You may aid another on an attack roll as a bonus action, provided that ally is within 15'.
Was on a Hammer films kick a while back. He was the merriest of Mary Sues.
@@Mr_Welch It's always a good time for a Hammer Film! Adjacent to that, I ran a Wicker Man style scenario a few months ago. They almost burned my friend John's Half Elven Gunslinger/Bladesinger alive.
I once played a halfling Fighter who was quite clever. He became the party tactician; like Bat-Man, he knew how best to use everyone else's abilities when it came to prepared combat situations.
Once he planned an ambush for a patrol of hobgoblins. I learned from the DM when they would be passing into our trap, and insisted that our party be in place a good 2 hours in advance, with the halfling being a go-between to check on everyone while we wait. A tactical genius, he used those two hours to chat-up the elf-maid (not played out, just said it happened.)
In 5E give the Int bonus to the Battle Master dice roles. Problem solved. You could also give additional Battle Master Superiority Dice, based on the Int bonus. And then Int becomes one primary attribute for Battle Master builds.
That still locks you into playing a battle master, instead of having it be something that all fighters of a certain skill level can do.
@@whiskeyhound Yes this is correct. But that is the Archetype that is most associated with intelligence, smarts and battle tactics, besides the Duelist. But the Duelist is still not in the 5E Archetypes. Eldritch Knight already is tied to Intelligence and Champion would be rather the Charisma type of guy.
The problem is that you cannot device a general rule that will then apply to all Archetypes, because some of them are quite different from each other and it would destroy utterly a presumed class balance. Most Archetypes that use Int, would become even stronger and other that rely on other Attributes would not synergize.
And if you add a general rule to the Fighter that as an example exchanges Dex for Int then what is the point of it ? If you make a special skill that gives every Fighter an insight look into the enemy then it offsets the Skills of other Archetypes, like Battle Master, or even other classes like the Rogue's Mastermind.
The intelligence Fighter has to use the Int without the players giving him his own intelligence and that is difficult, while it being proposed here. Encumbrance (by weight and size) and limited readied fast accessible equipment (if you play with it (and you should)) also puts a wrench into the gears of some of this proposals.
4:05 Sword and Fist and Oriental Adventures both had Knowledge: War. Complete Warrior also had alternate uses for existing Knowledge skills to help with battle tactics.
I love dumping stats, but it's a lot less fun when the dump stat doesn't hurt your character. Int should do more yes. :/
So I’ve been playing Star Wars 5e and the Scholar class actually fights this to a T. Well not completely, seeing as you don’t get the martial weapon proficiencies like a fighter save for some subclasses, but the combat tactics are all there. Everyone gets warlock invocations and scholars get discoveries that do lots of cool things like getting extra maneuvers (they get them as a base ability like the SW5e fighter!) that can be swapped, and get extra reactions to help use those maneuvers. They also get expertise making them amazing skill monkeys. The Gambler subclass is fun as a luck manipulator and high stakes roller. Plus the scholar can choose a discovery that lets them use Charisma or Wisdom instead of INT for the more roguish gambler or charismatic politician subclass, but these all work wonderfully as INT characters so the option is there for flavor and multi-classing so the scholar isn’t stuck with only INT classes as optimal picks. There’s also a physician and chef subclasses to show how flexible this class is. Also the detective is martially inclined with extra attack on top of two reactions, and goes full Sherlock Holmes, including Robert Downey Jr. discombobulate move!
The fighter having maneuvers as a baseline ability is also amazing. There are entire categories of maneuvers to pick through and many directly use mental stats on the tin. You can get general maneuvers that let you pick the stat, and many others that are tied to some uncommon ones. There are even maneuvers that interact directly with force powers (use WIS or CHA generally) or tech powers (SW’s way of doing INT casting, artificers are now engineers with tech powers, same with rangers being scouts with droid engineering and tech!). 5e’s maneuvers really don’t do the ability justice. The fighter should have them as a baseline ability and have every subclass interact with it. Have maneuvers that require spellcasting as a prerequisite, would make fighter dips on casters more dynamic and synergistic. Have maneuvers that boost combat tactics. Have tiered maneuvers (and more learned) that boost command abilities. At 15th level you should be able to direct more than one creature to charge and attack using your turn as a resource. SW5e does! It hi honestly fixed a lot of base 5e issues, especially with everyone getting invocations as mini feats that help customize characters without eating into leveling resources directly like 5e feats do. And for fighters, the tactical specialist is the subclass that boosts maneuvers into the stratosphere. And fighters get tons of skills from invocations/strategies that make the fighter batter tactically in general. Not everything in there directly uses INT, but with maneuvers that do use it, taking INT is actually very viable and making INT checks to boost your tactical ability would be small fry for a DM to justify for how the fighter is already built.
And the system gets better! It even gives you starting feats via backgrounds. My current scholar is a smuggler with expertise in piloting thanks to the ace pilot feat you can pick from smuggler. He’s also a slicer, a hacker who uses tech powers and gets access to tech-based maneuvers. And thanks to a discovery I get two swappable maneuver slots so I can swap tactics on the fly.
Also forgot to mention that each subclass expands the invocation list of each class that focuses on more subclass synergy!
And finally, level 20 gives your characters major stat boosts on top of the other capstone abilities like how the barbarian does in base 5e to relevant scores, going past the stat cap!
Basically SW5e actually makes the INT fighter worth it, and honestly just plays better than 5e.
@ Mr. Welch 14:54 You see, that’s the biggest problem right there. “Breaking the game” shouldn’t be the point. The point is for a group of friends to get together, roll some dice, problem solve, and hopefully, become immersed in the story the DM is telling.
The ironic part is that it tries to do that in D&D, a system that has been bound by outdated and restrictive mechanics since its genesis. As if he didn't know games where he can really do what he wants and the game itself encourages him to do so... I don't know... GURPS maybe?... FATE in the most extreme case even.
You can id the Westin by the characteristic way he begins every conversation. "When you're a spy..."
Another good example of the smart fighter is the Japanese movie series about Hanzo the Razor. It's rather adult, but for one thing, he's a cop who serves the people, even against the government. His house is filled with booby traps he can set off anytime he's attacked (which is often), and there are weapons hidden everywhere for him to use as needed. Just like the climactic battle in Conan the Barbarian. Talk about smart fighters!
The 5e Fighter should be given “Choose Any Four” skills and the Ranger should be made into a subclass.
In the defense of 3.5e, they are ways to use Int for fighters and be awarded from.
First there is the prestige class of duelist that adds your Int mod into the AC.
You can also multiclass with either the Marshall or the Swashbuckler class.
The Marshall gives auras to the players and aid there special habilities, you could Homebrew it so the increase use your Int Mod rather then the Cha
Another one can be the Swashbuckler that adds the Int mod to the damage of your hits if you have a high strenght high int martial you could add up to 8 or 10 to your attacks.
One of my favorite characters I ever played was an intelligent fighter. I got invited to a table last by a friend of friends and straight rolled a character and went with a fighter. The game went on for about 2.5 years and lots of homebrew was added as the players got to know each other and their characters developed. My fighter became the de facto tactician for the group leaning heavily on the "know the enemy" class feature and decided the initiative order of the party. He also used his intelligence to make deals with extra planars for tricky weapons and armors to be prepared for every situation. Sure the equipment was loaded with monkey paws but that's what made it an exciting gamble.
You know something, Mr. Welch, the Burn Notice reference has earned a subscribe. Well played
Well, here's a step in that direction. Skill-based (non-class) games which also provide for Int being a substitute for initiative bonus and a Tactics skill for providing extra combat bonuses to the group on a success. I believe Mongoose Traveller 2e has all that and, to some extent, a few others do too - some 2d20 systems IIRC, for example.
On the subject of characters being smarter than their players, Exalted second edition once offered an optional rule to help represent superhuman prowess for mental attributes. A character was allowed to retroactively adjust the current scene once for every point of a mental characterstic they were over the human maximum of (5 in that version of the Storyteller system) per session, if the player and the GM could finagle the addition in a way that could be tied to the attribute. The example given for military officers was one of the elite units under their command, that was previously not described as commited elsewhere, suddenly coming to the party's help out of an ambush the character 'has prepared just for this eventuality'.
It doesn't really help with the issue of intelligence being so narrowly useful; this case jumped out in my memory simply because of how rare it is for a system to even attempt to address what consequences to boosting intelligence, wisdom, charisma, or equivalent with magic / cyber / what have you could be.
I usually go for a vampire hunter d style eldritch knight dhampir. Being able to throw fireballs twice then decapitate a motherfucker with my greatsword is amazing.
Having taken the helm of a wizard2 warmage/fighter3 echo, which is wildly more unstable [mechanically] than I imagined, you could not have given me idea fodder at a better time. Bless you.
I liked how in 2E high intelligence gave extra proficiency slots, which as the edition progressed basically meant feats
Although I generally preferred playing Wizards and "Rogues" (Bards and Thieves), one of my favorite original characters spawned from some random name generator in a book held by the local games club that I had rolled up: "Cylarus the Polished." His second-highest stat was INT (at 16), he was a former knight-in-training who turned his back on the order to become an axe-wielding mercenary, and he was my attempt to prove - to myself as much as to others - that Chaotic Evil didn't have to be played as "Chaotic Stupid." His fighting style emulated that of Dwarves, and although he favored a great axe, he kept a battle axe and two handaxes for emergencies/ranged. I only played him in two one-shot adventures (pretty sure it was 3.0 D&D, but might have been right at the beginning of 3.5), but man was he fun to play. And surprising people with his intelligence only made it better since I had him act like "just some musclehead merc swinging his weapon in deceptively-tactical engagements" until the need for his intellect came up. In a funny twist: out of an entire ragtag party in the first adventure, he got along with the LG Dwarf Cleric of Moradin the best, and the Dwarf's player and I agreed that they became traveling buddies after both adventures.
Oh, and Charisma was like an 8 or 7. He would be a good-looking guy if he spoke more kindly to people, cleaned his gear, and bothered to bathe more often than once every couple of weeks - a sort of personal mockery to his former order (and legitimately the concept that I immediately thought of just from his name).
If you want a visual image: look up Perceval/Percival (the blonde version) at low level in the old "Knights of the Round" arcade/SNES video game by Capcom: shirtless, armored only with a left pauldron, vambrace, and both gauntlets, a pair of lightly-armored greaves over leather pants and boots, and a Cheshire-like grin. I thought of that character's visual look the entire time I created Cylarus.
I've played the sarah conner as a lizardman ICE agent before. They worked for the Darnian Immigrations Office, a necromantic nation, and specifically sought out vampires and other intelligent undead to help them through the immigration process. Everyone else started before me. So they got access to magic items out of the gate. I got the shit ton of money, but only had access to a bag of holding. The dm did not expect me to have at least 2 of every standard adventuring item, and 3+ of the most useful. You'd be amazed how cheap a barrel of lantern oil is. Vampire retreated to their lair behind a small crack at the bottom of the wall? Me and the barbarian have a pair of picks to widen that hole over the course of an hour. I even had a rowboat(canoe, so it would fit in the bag) and some skeleton horses in there for travel purposes. Sometimes you've got to make the point that the vampire cannot escape or fight beauracracy before they give up and talk.
damn amazing idea. I've always hated the idea of the dump stat and always looked to make every stat useful to every character. Great video. That earned a new sub.
The Japanese tabletop RPG _Double Cross_ has a fun take on INT Fighters.
The game's about people that have been infected with a mysterious virus that grants super powers, with similar powers being grouped into "Syndromes". One of these Syndromes - _Neumann_ - turns you into a super genius.
Aside from the obvious application - being the party's master tactician - you can also use your big brain power _internally_ to boost your _own_ fighting capabilities, basically becoming an IQ-powered martial artist.
They real problem with intelligence is that it's dumb.
A bunch of the problems with the stat are that too make it useful you have to make several assumptions about the game that aren't generally true.
A dm identifying tactics as optimal is not actually helpful because they aren't smarter than anyone else at the table. Sometimes they'll need to fudge what's smart to play into the intelligent characters plan because they didn't plan beyond, I've got some monsters here and they're gonna fight. Which is just as likely to mess up a good plan as fall prey to one.
Or you run across issues of agency, you've got this powerful rp identity which means i as the dm tell you what to do or something very close to that.
There's a few cool things other systems do with foresight powers that might translate to dnd well, "automatically have the right item" like the artificer. Or "change an action based on next turns results." Which is kind of like action surge...
The long and short of it is that stats are abstract in the game and intelligence is abstract in real life so sticking them together makes something so abstract the only way we can represent it is with abilities that affect the real world and not the game world. Like, " i didn't think to bring a ten foot pole, gm but if i make this role my character did!" And the difference between int and wis is impossible to say about 50% of the time so like maybe they're both a bit dumb.
Yes!! Well said, thank you for the examples also. And Howdy in Houston too!
Good video.
The bit where the fighter can notice a foe's weapons, type, being a caster etc seems more fitting for Wisdom, as it is observation based.
PF1 has the Profession (Soldiery) skill, which essentialy makes you a better military commander able to execute large scale maneuvers.
As for skill points, I just rule that a fighter gets 4 points per level instead of 2.
I’d say it’s still INT via investigation, or insight rolled with INT since you actually have to be knowledgeable to understand what you’re looking at from a martial perspective.
I’d also allow a player to roll deception and persuasion with INT (and persuasion with WIS for that matter) to enable the Michael Weston chameleon, who requires knowledge of many different kinds of cultures big and small with many likely needing to be studied in books, and to enable the Sanjuro who needs the intelligence to know how to pick his weapons and hiding places efficiently. Can’t do that with straight charisma, though slight of hand checks may be used as needed.
A great example of using INT to notice your enemy's capabilities was Witcher 2 when Foltest knew where to put his siege weapons by knowing the range on the enemy's ballistas.
Weston's knowledge of cultures meant when pressed on an identity he knew the correct way to answer. Sanjuro knew what his enemies were expecting and planned accordingly. The big bad was waiting for him to reach for his sword, so he took him out with a throwing knife concealed in the off hand
As someone who likes to give debates and rebuttals, here are two.
One, a lot of the archetypes you gave are play styles rather than game mechanics. Having the right equipment/tactics is a shopping/planning episode and a stack of sourcebooks. That's the players' INT. Even a middling INT can be used to justify doing that.
Two, there is somewhat of a difference between stats and skills. Using 5e D&D terms, proficiency and expertise in History is studying the treatises on war, not necessarily a high stat. The stat helps, sure. But expertise represents up to 12 points over a career while ability is up to 6 points between -1 and 5.
And a bonus point. Honestly, the "smart" fighter with the high STR could have that score because they really know how to apply and optimize their muscular force (rather than being 7 feet of rippling abs and pecs).
Exactly.
You got me on the time machine.
I once had a high level PF1 fighter 12-14 ranges by end. I carried a heft of gear from both bags of marbles and caltrops to my Main Long spear, blade, hammer and several hold outs and throwing weapons all over my body. Had boot knives, candle lantern with weather proofing, try and light a powder keg in a storm without one. Your fighter should carry gear first the loot later. use a drop bag with a trap for whatever will make you overweight. ;3c
I love your slideshow of smart martial people and characters.
I was giving this very subject some thought last week, and decided a class related perception mechanism.....
I don't necessarily go TOO far in gating certain things like using terrain behind stats, IKRPG had one of the Brilliant or Skilled archetype abilities be the main way to fight using terrain.
Sheesh bro, just found your channel a few weeks ago and they are awesome. Such a wealth of knowledge and inspiration for enhancing play
3d6 down the line discourages this type of approach with rare multiple high rolls. Hence why I encourage the use of 4d6 six times, drop lowest per roll to get a better mix - that way if you do have multiple high rolls Intelligence as Fighter becomes open when plyers assign their roll results.
'Battlemaster Tactician' is an awesome idea for a Fighter option.Just be careful of potential meta-gaming bleed in.
If dice must be rolled I prefer the dice pool method. 24d6 distributed as you like with each stat getting a minimum of 3d6. Every N dice beyond the base causes you to drop the lowest N rolls.
So if you just go full SAD and put all remaining dice into a caster stat by pumping it to 9d6 you drop the 6 lowest rolls for that stat. A couple arrays I like to use for that depending on concept are: 5d6 5d6 4d6 4d6 3d6 3d6 for a 2ASD build, 6d6 4d6 4d6 4d6 3d6 3d6 for a more rounded SAD build.
This method lets you statistically weigh the odds in favour of the character type you actually wish to build instead of the complete crapshoot that old-school 3d6 or even the newer 4d6 drop lowest offer. And it's easy enough to adjust the power level up from the standard by adding more dice to the pool.
@@HenshinFanatic I prefer rolling randomly over points and similar systems. This seems like a good alternative.
@@MarkHyde I prefer to have total control of what kind of character I play, but this method at least let's me nudge the odds in my favour even with my bad dice rolls. I remember when I was forced to roll standard 4d6 assign to whatever you want repeat five more times, and the highest I got was a 14. So begrudgingly I absolutely had to play a caster, because I could at least use my every 4 levels ASI to pump my casting stat. A martial (my preferred character type) would have been absolutely useless with the stats I rolled. A caster is at least sub-optimal in that situation rather than a millstone about the party's neck.
@@HenshinFanatic I'd be suggesting you find another game then - no ill will from me. EDIT: I really dislike the idea that any TTRPG should be seen as a kind of adversarial exercise between the DM and Player - I would have thought randomness presents a 'common ground' rather than favouring players over DMs with point buy system etc etc. Let the DICE decide. Stop being afraid of them is my take.
Ive modified 5e Battlemaster so superiotity dice are based on INT.
Lol. I should have waited until the video finished. I like your idea
R. Downey Jr’s Sherlock Holmes is a great example his high intelligence almost grants him prophetic prescience.
Wouldnt a high int fighter be the warlord from 4e?
Thinking on how you build them not every fighter is a commander But you could also easily make a warlord into just a finer with charisma and intelligence
I try to play fighter as a jack of all trades glue that holds the party together. Need somebody to be the first into danger and protect the Squishies? Standard stuff. Need somebody to give a heroic speech? My Charisma is negative but my voice is loud. Heroic last stand against overwhelming forces? I'll be at the front holding the line and telling artillery exactly how close danger close really is.
I am 100% the Sarah Conner type fighter. Every new group I join in asks why me as the melee fighter is gathering useless knickknacks and garbage only to put it to full use during or right before combat.
12:15 Have you watched the Australian classic, "Hercules Returns"?
I have now. Twice
What about eldritch knight? Super fun to play.
That's more of the over saturation of magic. Which will be its own video. D&D seems to have a spell infestatin
Wouldn't El Santo be more of a Monk?
El Santo is more of a deity
I like to imagine if my Paladin makes it to old age that he'll becomes a Gandelf like wandering knight-errant
I like your video. The problem is, a lot of your 'recognize hidden weapons' or anything of that, typically GMs will do Perception (or Spot/Listen depending on edition) checks and all, basing them on Wisdom. Now, 5e does have the rule of 'skills can use other stats based on how you're using it', which is exactly what you're talking about, but plenty of people don't actually use that rule because it's just ingrained in them to look to see what the skill lists instead of remember that. That and Battlemaster Maneuvers are limited by your dice pool, so you rarely use them til you really need them.
I'd love to be in a game where Int actually helps a Fighter. Where there are combat styles and all aside from the class feature and all. Or that there were items that let you handle various situations, ala Witcher. But DnD typically is full magic is king and item DCs fall by the wayside fast. Hell, take 3.5. Poison DCs were completely worthless past the first couple levels, especially on the targets you'd use them on.
So yea, I love your video and I definitely am sharing it in hopes that people pick up doing stuff you have listed.
Always loved the idea of a smart fighter.
Cheers!
I love high INT fighters conceptually.
What's wonderful that made me think how to apply this in life and in games.
A lot of fighting is predictive skill. Maybe a knowledge (strategy) or even just an int check could give the genius fighter your exact next move for an opponent.
Or maybe a bad roll gives you bad advice. The power writes itself.
You absolute legend! Best video yet!
4:46 Door squeaks ominously in the background. Wellness check?
Cats don't care about recording times
I approve of the Michael Weston. Very much approve.
I love this and need to figure out how to make it work.
Mostly need to sell my non fighter players on it.
i like point buy my self
Well I've got my current Archer being an 18 level Int. I'll work out something I can do with that if the GM is game.
Great video, as always.
"Except Twilight 2000 players..." can confirm. LOL ❤
I love games which do that. D&D is sadly not one of them.
If ever there was a warlord it was Leonidas
@Mr. Welch What the Player’s Option:Powers and Abilities book? Or the Complete Fighter’s Handbook? Those supplements had to have some better options for Fighters with high Int, yes?
Fighter's Handbook touches on tactics in depth, and how to play a leader type over a few paragraphs. Skills and Powers is all crunch, Combat and Tactics is somehow even more crunch, and badly written crunch on top of it. Okay there's a reason why nobody talks about those last two.
@Mr_Welch I'm sorry, but what do you mean by crunch?
@@Mr_Welch And I meant Combat and Tactics. Not skills and powers.
@John Balk crunch are rules. Compared to fluff, which is background and lore
@@Mr_Welch Thank you Sensei.
This is really great!
0:26 CAPTAIN KRONOS HOOOO-WHEEE!!!
Awesome sauce. Thanks
I'm trying to play a high intelligence fighter in Pathfinder game but I am always outclassed by the minmaxed fighter
I spit out my drink at Twilight2000
KISS principal. +1 hit for every 2 points above 12.
Excellent video! :)
All tools using int is interesting.
Great video
High intelligence thieves used to get more skill points per level also, does this happen in the 5th edition?
No 5th edition gives you certain skills at 1st level and then you are locked in, never gaining any more except through certain subclasses which are almost never fighters and a few feats
@@Mr_Welch That makes no sense.
@@algomez8563 Never did
Then there's the Fezzik. You look like a big half-ogre. People think you're just a stupid brute. But under that simple demeanor is a crafty wit, an eye for fashion, and a mind for improvisation. Anything that looks useful will be utilized to its full effect. Be it a simple rock to four white horses.
You can handle a tree trunk like most fighters handle swords. That archer raining arrows on you, remember that rock? The Fezzik is going to draw attention and eventually fire. People are going to underestimate his intelligence, and that's what he is counting on.