High Level NPCs, Followers, and DMPCs | Running the Game
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- Опубліковано 26 сер 2024
- Episode 25: More NPCs!
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In Ventrue Bross, Monarch explained delegation to his henchmen: "I know it sounds crazy, but you guys have the perfect combination of being totally expendable while being tough enough to handle whatever I throw at you."
a perfect mix of expendable and invincible
@@Warlock3151 Reminds me of the episode with Henchman 1 (later 0)
The high level characters are taking care of the problem in the city... By hiring some whelp adventurers to take care of it for them. Delegation.
Exactly. I always think about the description of an solar angel's responsibilities, defending celestial bodies or abstract concepts like gravity. That kind of a creature would rarely, if ever waste their time halting an orc invasion. Even if they even "want" to.
Not exactly. They have to gain something from the act itself. Meaning a local lord would want to get rid of troubles from his land, since he has a vented interest in it, but some high lvl adventurer wouldn't give two shits unless he got paid or sth. My point being the nature of the npc is what really matters in a situation like that.
@@RisenSlash .
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@@RisenSlash .
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Mionir B
A quote on Diplomacy: "I'd trust my best friend with my bank accounts, my house keys, and my younger sister. I will NOT trust that son of a bitch with Belgium."
Lol, me (france) and Germany have handed belgium back and forth intentionally at least twice this game. As things shuffle around.
Lol!❤
best DMPC that I ever encountered was with a buddy of mine who was very unfamiliar with the system. He wanted to DM and wanted friends that would cut him some slack when he screwed up.
He ended up rolling a bard that was enamored with the party. He did give some ideas on occassion, but whenever a PC made a suggestion, he was immediately behind it (Making us question how intelligent he really was sometimes). For the most part, he was around to give the party buffs in case he made the encounter a bit too strong, and when he finally felt comfortable with running the game, enough that he didn't feel like he needed to give the players a Handicap, The bard ended up sacrificing himself for the rest of the party in one of those "Someone has to hold the door" trap things.
I still miss that rhyming bastard.
Kajowwojak this reminds me of the Bard in Witcher that met Geralt from time to time, I don’t know why but it does
^ I love that bard
@@Dynamo33 Flip that on it's head to work for you. The Witcher is the main character, the Hero. And you saddle him with a fuqqup NPC, to help out with Lore, reputation, buffs etc. Plus they will feel like proper heroes for saving his dumb a$$.
@@Dynamo33 When you say mistake, I hear opportunity for diverting and enjoyable play.
@@mathewstoker2131 These aren't mutually exclusive lol depends on the frame of reference; in the meta sense, perhaps it is enjoyable diversion, but in world its disruptive and socially uncouth, or to phrase it another way, a mistake.
Context and frame of reference are very important lol
One more thing; I think a lot of DMs get frustrated with their players because they IMAGINED this perfect game, but the players are doing their own thing. So the DM makes a DMPC to "show them how to play right!"
That is probably a bad idea! Players want to have fun their way, not yours. Best to find a compromise, rather than try and "teach them how to play right!" Well, there isn't a right way. What you mean is "the way I want! The way I imagined!"
This is closely related to the railroad problem. IF the players did what you wanted all the time...what's the point of having players? To dazzle them with your brilliance? Better to take your ideas and turn them into a novel where pesky players won't ruin your story.
That actual helped a lot. Thanks waiting excitedly for the next Diary.
Regarding the means for future giveaways, Gleam.io is often used for that.
Some of my players seem to have the similar but opposite problem; they fully expect me to railroad them or that I would be displeased if they move "out of bounds" of the adventure. I've had to reassure them over and over that I present the world and they move around in it. You might have a mission, but that's on your PC's initiative. You might take a detour, and that may have consequences, but you decide the timetable for your character train.
I just started up a game with my friends for my birthday a few months back and this was probably the biggest hump I had to get over when I was running the game, thankfully Id heard numerous horror stories about DMPCs beforehand so I avoided using them and instead spoke to my players basically saying "Looks I've planted the seeds for some stories along the way but you guys feel free to do what you want in the end". Id say one of the more fun parts has been learning how adapt to the players decisions and actions anyway and we've had a blast since then. These videos have been a tremendous help and I would've been totally lost without this channel. Thanks again.
I like how your editing style bleeds into the way you write comments and reddit posts. You end paragraphs and continue on the same subject on the next one, like when you make a jump cut to speed your speech.
Okay, your blacksmith's daughter showing up in armor that's too big and a sword she can't lift is ADORABLE! I only know that much about her, and already she sounds like the most perfect cinnamon roll!
Even though a toddler could pick up a sword
@@punishedwhispers1218 Pick up? Yes. Hold remotely right or get much use out of? Not really
@@REDACTED_shenanigans They weigh like three pounds
@@punishedwhispers1218 Three pound on the lower end, up to 5 pounds roughly for long swords. She can pick it up no doubt, but she probably wont be able to handle it effectively at first. A untrained newbie in ill fitting armor that's trying to swing a sword around without any idea of stance or technique will get winded and out of breath very very fast
I'm getting the impression Matt likes trying to convince his friends to play talisman with him haha
It's a terrible game, but it's a classic gateway game for folks who've never played boardgames.
"Let's just play Talisman" should be the tagline for this channel!
@@mcolville ROOT rpg is another good 'transition' game!
The Powered by the Apocalypse system gives everyone some cool moves but leaves it open enough to transition into more of an RPG vibe!
@@mcolville I don't think I've seen anyone else agree with me that Talisman is terrible lol
Freakin love talisman
“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. And never let anybody tell you that a small group of dedicated people can’t change the world. In fact, it’s the only thing that ever has.”
I know it's easier to say it 'never works out' but the issue is usually the difference between a DM telling a collaborative story, and a DM who wants to go on a power-trip. It's not that hard to run a DMPC that doesn't steal the other PC's thunder, and instead enhances it.
I've had DMPCs in campaigns I run (for different reasons in each) and my players love them! I've actually tried phasing them out some way but my players are very adamant in that they want those characters to remain in the story.
But for me, it's easy to run a story with characters like this with my group because we've done collaborative story (text) roleplaying for over 10 years with two of them. They enjoy the characters I develop and part of their fun IS interacting with them. So... I suppose that makes a big difference.
I'm also very harsh to my DMPCs, and they don't get loot without the other PCs handing it to them, they're the last ones to get magical items, level up and are generally on the quiet side when it comes to decisions and problem solving, waiting for the PCs to tell them what to do in most scenarios, and rolling to see if they know/help in others.
I 100% agree with this as someone who has had a DMPC for over a year now and it has worked out fine. They've even tried to leave the team a few times to my player's loathing and ended up staying on only because the PCs convinced him otherwise. He's not someone I give glory to in the story. He's lost his one companion in battle and that is one of the only travelling characters in our story to have died as of yet. It's also fairly easy to make up some way where they can't solve the puzzles. It just takes some acting and some self-restraint on the DMs part which you should have anyway as a DM.
I've seen it work out well, too. It definitely depends on the DM not wanting to hog the glory.
Yeah that's the thing, for a DMPC to work out, it needs to be played in a way similar to assisting NPCs. Trying to make the decisions/take part of the loot etc almost always makes the character wildly unfair, because as the DM you can always solve your own problems of course, and can tailor loot to yourself. Which is why it almost never works, your version works best due to it being a psuedo PC instead of when DMs decide that they will be an actual PC, if that makes sense.
I ran a bard as a cohort for one of my players because he wanted to play an egotistical warlord and felt he needed an advisor to be a voice of reason for him. But to my surprise, all of the players began interacting with the cohort in ways that went beyond the scope of the position and the character quickly got absorbed into the party and treated as though they were a fellow adventurer (which included the players choosing to give him an equal cut of the loot. I had to start offering slightly bigger rewards for them after they made a habit of doing this.)
In one of the earliest sessions, the player whose sheet he was tied to had rescued this bard from bounty hunters and the cohort swore himself to the player's service. But after the first boss fight a few weeks later, the player freed him from his debt and asked him to join them. I know DMPCs tend to have a bit of a stigma, but this was one case where it seemed to work out nicely. He became a fully fledged member of the party and since he was the only character local to the region, I used him as a bit of a tour guide and let the players wring him for information or opinions about NPCs he may have been familiar with. Now he sings the praises of the party wherever they go and helps to build their legend as thanks for giving him a seat at their table.
I usually use a DMPC because in our group there are no forever DM, sometimes one person is DM, sometimes another is DM. Almost every adventure has a different DM, even if usually is in between the two more confortable with been DM. The thing is that the party didn´t change every time we temporarily change our DM, but the pc that the DM own became a npc in that adventure.
Well, Skyrim gave an universal reason why high level NPCs don't go around solving problems... 'I used to be an adventurer like you, until I took an arrow in the knee'
thecityissleeping just because snopes disagrees doesn’t mean it’s wrong, though it is obviously incorrect that the man kneels because he took an arrow in the knee, for one thing that’s stupid because of where the cultures that involved getting on one knee to propose cane from versus the actual Norse.
Joking aside, they probably got the loot they needed for their goals and it was no longer worth the risk to adventure. Too many dead friends.
I agree with Alexi. Adventuring can be lucrative, but is also inarguably hazardous. If a person did it, they'd only do it so long as they felt they had to. Or until they lost the stomach for it.
This is why I tend to encourage players to figure out their character's long-term motivations for adventuring. What is stopping them from getting enough money to live comfortably for a while, and then retiring at the first opportunity? Hell, what's stopping the character from abandoning a dungeon halfway through, if things get difficult? That's the sort of thinking a player should focus on when designing their character. Elaborate backstories are secondary to just understanding their motivation.
Simple and effective. Haha
🤣🤣🤣
That awkward moment when Matthew calls me a cowardly cleric...thanks man :P
sidekick status confirmed :-)
"I'd like to deposit this cheque please."
"Sir, this just says 'gospel'."
"That's right, I'd like to deposit the gospel please."
"Please, move along sir."
"Sir, this is a Wendy's"
If you *ARE* running a DMPC, one thing is absolutely mandatory, _Every single roll is out in the open!_
Because if your DMPC rolls a natural 20 to crit and kill the Beholder, ..good luck convincing people of that if you rolled it behind the screen.
I also like to have them a level below the players
None of my players distrust me like that. Sometimes I actually have them roll lower than what I actually rolled but if it is a nat 20, I always keep it because I barely ever roll them.
@@ArvelDreth Barely... About one in twenty times?^^
I just let my players roll for their own companions/NPC's that are overpowered
I let my players make the roll for that character, so there's no favouritism going on. They got attached to an NPC who's now following along for the adventure (they convinced them) so this was a good way to allow them to have them follow without taking the show off the players. Unfortunately my current players are passive, so i roll in the open if they ever ask if the npc can offer advice and if its a high roll they'll give it, but anything under 10 will always be something useless or unhelpful to make it more realistic (as frankly npcs don't know everything and shouldn't know everything)
the DMPC is a challenge all DMs face at some point, until you realize you already get to play in your game except you have unlimited amounts of cool characters to play!
no
@@elgatochurronyes
@@alalalala57 No
I do not get the enjoyment of being a player as the DM and it's very wrong to tell others that this is the case when it is not.
If it honestly were the case, especially with how spoiled and demanding players are today, why are there DM shortages? Why is it hard to find people willing to pick up the mantle? Surely it's "just the same but even better" right?
@@elgatochurro Because rules are not characters? You do realize that right? Like, your entire reply is a non-sequitur to the original comment lmao.
My mindset as well. You don't even have to wait for the next campaign to "roll up" another character!
"Bla-bla Down Below" is a great duregar diplomacy setting, BTW. Kinda like Game of Thrones, but with shorter folks.
Jari Heiska Yes, it centers on the Doodlydoo Clan.
DMPCs/GMPCs are like ghost peppers, work best if diluted and occasionally, and even then some people won't have them, ever. Only use if skilled.
That's a great way of putting it.
I am doing a solo run with my brother, so I have a few npc´s I have created that he can meet along the line. However I would love some input on how to use them.
One is the demon king (my brothers character is half demon), Not that flashed out yet as I only wants him to be there to let my brothers character explore the demons side a bit more rahter than the other side all the time.
Then there is Lugus from Lauva, he is a human/snakeman hybrid that is a mage/cleric hybrid. This is a verry religious person who basicly can do no harm unless the enemy engages him first. He is a highlvl(15) creature with quiet a few traits from te sneakman genes. Due to an oath to the god he serves he is prevented from harming creatures (unless for eating as he cant digest vegetarian food or attacked first). He is lojal, silentknows his goal and aims for it.
Then I made the king for him. His name is Amsden of the Grand Oak clan. He is a old man of 67 years. He is a smart person but far from wise. With this I mean that he knows a lot of things but lack the skill/knowledge to aply those things in situations. For examples lets say he sees a dragon. The king KNOWS it is strong and will most likely kill him at one, but since he isnt wise he will simply charge at it figuring "heck, I may be lucky". The king is really charasmatic(18 in stat) and it is his main stat really.
Any advice on how to use these three would be highly apreciated.
With things like demon kings, archmages and gods it's best to have them interact with lower level characters through dreams or visions or hallucinations or hearing a bard tell a myth about them. While a DM or GM may really think it's impressive to stomp around a huge overpowered NPC in front of the player characters it usually just bores them or makes them think less of their own characters. Remember the southpark where Cartman made Kyle watch him play with a remote control excavator? Alternately there's the famous Fizban gambit, wherein the super powerful NPC pretends to be a low level npc and subtly helps the characters without drawing attention to themselves. The gambit is named after a part of the Dragonlance novels wherein the god Paladine disguised himself as a bungling old wizard Fizban, to save the kinder(halfling) Tasselhoff. He never broke character as a bungling old wizard and even appeared to have died when his work was finished. A demon king interested in the welfare of his son, or the advancement of a future rival might send a minion disguised as an ally to spy on him.
oh okej, thanks for letting me know. THe thing is that the demonking isnt even at half his full power due to him, his land and people beeing sent to a diffrent dimension by some incredibly strong mages around 150 000years ago. The spell have finally started to wither away but t save his people from the spell needs to be broken as they cant take the magic from the other realm much longer. However for the spell to be really broken someone from the outside needs to break it, thus my brothers character have a purpose and a reason for meeting the demon king that can cross over just a short moment every second month. Not sure if this makes sence for you reading this but I will keep your points in my mind :D
Or if you don't have friends ; -;
I've run campaigns with many different groups, and I've always included one constant NPC. A Pirate Captain who is usually first seen with his leg up on a wooden keg, Captain Morgan. Captain Morgan is always introduced whenever the characters inevitably attempt to go sailing, or need someone to help them cross the ocean. He generally waives fees in the trust that the characters will bring him danger and excitement. He longs for a good battle, and is usually quite insane and dark sometimes. He's really fun to play with and the people in my groups are always in for a treat when they encounter him.
"-Let's ask this high level priest to help us.
-Sir, please, we need help."
Heden shrugged.
Niccee
I mean if you're running an NPC in the party, whether it's "your" character or not, the trick is largely to not view challenges that they solve as encounters within your game. Because they aren't; they're just story unfolding in front of the characters. Obviously YOU know how to solve your encounters, so it's really just narration. So the central problems have to be ones that the NPC can't or won't resolve (though they may help, or provide key information, or screw up and CREATE challenges). Add in that they have their own drives and goals, and you'll usually do alright. Just don't always have them do tactically optimal things, and remember that the only way they make mistakes is if you make them make mistakes.
In a group of ~10th level PCs, I had a fifteenth level wizard focused in conjuration and evocation, specced out to be more or less unbeatable, who was a cocky, flamboyant ass that did things like get in bar fights or summon dinosaurs and ride them (he was my attempt to make a wizard bro) join them for a little while. He'd hired them as, essentially, his own lower level guards for a dungeon. And you'd think all of those things I just said would make him ruin all the fun of the game; he even had ubermensch stats, but the players thought he was great, and they had a good time adventuring with him. Because he didn't solve all their problems, and he had his own motives that made him act in sort of his own frame of reference, and while he compensated for mistakes the players made, he made his own mistakes, and he wasn't throwing money away on components or wasting high level spells. Ultimately, he was there for himself, and expected the players to act as his hirelings, not as just this great guy who joined the group. It's not something I do all the time, but it can be done; you just have to have a plan for how you control this super cool character you're putting in the group and make sure that the players are still overcoming central challenges.
This guy would go on to become... essentially the main villain of my entire setting. And it was because of things he'd done while in-group with the players that he was able to do the things he did. So I think it made him more personal as an enemy for them.
That sign off gave me chills... thanks for the hope.
Matt seems like a good writer with a realistic view of the world, so I cringed to hear these commonplace quotes delivered so seriously.
Did you use 3 different takes back to back about hiring effectively a second character?
I thought it was repetition for emphasis.
O ok, as long as I am not going crazy. I refreshed the video like 3 times.
Go to 18:44. I'm pretty sure the reptile god story gets told twice back to back.
I've seen this on occasion. I think there's a DaVinci Code like cryptic message, spanning all the D&D videos. Or he was editing while hungry. This time, though, the players defeated the Cult of the Reptile God. And they also defeated the Reptile God himself. And then had to do it again. Resurrection, man. It's tough.
Something was changed in the Matrix. The Agents are on to us... quick, hide everyone!
We're about three levels deep of this in my campaign right now. Not only are the previous adventures and party members baked into the lore, but each generation in between is filled with "parties" of NPCs and the adventures they went on.
Matt! Cover your stronghold rules damnit! You're killing me here.
He's created a Kickstarter to make a book on exactly that - your wish has been granted. I assume you already found out about this, but just in case...
Aaaaaaaand it's backed!
Draeckon how would one get ahold of such a thing?
www.kickstarter.com/projects/255133215/strongholds-and-streaming
Another two days and then it finishes, best be quick!
I'm actually really sad that I found this youtube channel so late. I've been wanting to include strongholds and such in the current game I'm DM'ing and this would have been great
I would really like it if you could do a video on how you run your strongholds, wizard towers, druid graves and the like and what you get by having them.
I think the DMPC problem is somewhat similar to, and has severe overlap with the railroading problem. It's hard to avoid using out-of-character knowledge if you're both a player and the DM, and typically that makes the DMPC authoritative and an instrument to taking away choice, which is bad.
It's why I almost always build allies as support characters, or have their fight be its own separate thing the players can influence with their successes and failures - "Okay, while is dealing directly with , the BBEG's subordinates are trying to get in and dogpile on the fight. You, the player characters, can decide the outcome of the fight by clearing the distractions."
Also, as for when and how to use NPC's to bail the players out, *always* consider buffing and healing before just solving the problem for the players.
If the players are trying to hold off a dragon attacking the town and they're struggling, having the NPC Cleric cast Bless or Healing Word on the players, and having the magic item shopkeep chuck them a few healing potions and spell scrolls of Expeditious Retreat with a nod while he pulls the last peasants out of some rubble, makes the heroes feel like they were doing the right thing - whereas having an NPC suddenly start holding off the dragon for them makes them feel like they didn't matter that much.
Hello, it's me (again). I just wanted to drop into the blabla to tell you (again) how much I appreciate what you are doing here. A++ work! Stay shiny!
Oh no, you missed your chance to title this one "NPCs 2: Electric Boogaloo"! -Nerdarchist Ryan
That would have been great. Would love to see some type of collaboration between you guys and Matt, even just a discussion video would be unreal.
There's never a need for anything more than a temporary tag-along. As DMs, we get to play so many things with all sorts of abilities, sometimes even villains have class levels, so enjoy it mann.
"When Gandalf goes off to deal with this Necromancer we can imagine that that's setting up the next adventure"
And in the movie's that's exactly what happens!
The DMPC I play in a game is very reserved in RP unless it involves drinking and bashing heads. I use intelligence rolls to determine if he would speak up about key information he might know, just as I'd allow party members to make to see if they'd know something. I actively make him more of a tagalong then the story focus. I almost ignore he exists unless he cracks a joke or is contributing in combat.
The main reason I don't run dmpc is that I hold all the cards and I could have my character be omniscient or win every combat. Obviously you can choose not to do that but everytime I say anything the party will view it as being incredibly important and take it way too seriously. Another reason is that literally you killing something is you describing an enemy and then describing your character killing it. There isn't anything wrong with that but it requires you to have a party that knows you well. Combat is the main reason I don't do dmpc. Roleplay between party is never an issue but talking to yourself is something that can happen even without dmpc's. It's not wrong but I don't do it.
Same. I have 3 players, and the game-balance can be hard to pull off. We decided that I play a DMPC as well who's like a powerful mercenary/bodyguard. I don't even take from the loots they find, but they pay me weekly gold as wage. I already have enough on my plate DMing to care about my idiot fighter dude.
Howdy Matt, could we get a video detailing strongholds? I'd love to see your full array of charts regarding class-specific followers. Anyways thanks for all you do, your channel is inspiring.
\Bump/ I would also like to see this it sounds very well thought out and play tested from the videos. would love to see em.
Bump. Please can we get that chart?
TR0YtheMAN Me want.
I know I'm late to the party but maybe a couple of vids on the charts would be awesome.
Tyler Mathai you're getting that soon
18:48 and 19:04
Matt! You used the same clip twice!
OMG I thought I was going crazy! Thank goodness someone else commented to confirm.
Just a glitch in the matrix, don't worry about that
What?...
I think I heard the same 4 times.
I thought it was thrice xD
I often rewatch these videos and my only problem is that is not possible to like more than one time.
Wonderful ending to the video, Matt. It's something that needs repeating (imo)
I really liked that bit at the end about the arc of the universe bending towards justice. Thanks, Matt Coleville. Sometimes it's just good to be reminded of that sort of thing.
Esmeralda from CoS can be done really well. Our DM had her join the party (I don't know whether this was suggested in the book or not, I haven't read it) and she was always there if we wanted to ask for her opinion on how to approach something or even join combat. She never did anything out of character so it always felt right.
I'm wondering, on the topic of followers and high level NPCs, has anyone else had their players actually attempt to outright recruit a villain? I've encountered a few situations where my players have tried to convince a captive villain or villainous lieutenant to join their cause, or party directly (and annoyingly, since they're usually very powerful), or attempt to talk them down.
The problem is, sometimes they manage to construct frustratingly good arguments in favour of doing this, far beyond "Join or die", and often roleplay it very well, so I don't want to take their success away from them. On the other hand, while they might think it would be super awesome to have Dread Keraptis team up with them, I can't really let them have a character constructed to challenge their entire party follow them around.
Seems like a beautiful recipe for an NPC betrayal, no? I mean, the players knew he was a villian after all.. XD
Running the game #27 subtitled: "Recruiting what is effectively a second character." I think I heard you say that 5 times. Fun times. :D
Dear Matthew,
I was sitting here, absent-mindedly listening to your musings, when I realised this is the umpteenth binge of your content I have been on. Your wisdom is apparent and it is simply a joy to hear you talk. I want to be like you when I grow up.
Kind regards,
Skimble
Never have I heard a more inspirational statement as the one presented in the last 30 seconds of this video. I am now hopeful again, thanks to you, Matt Colville. Bravo!
I loved your ending comments; very welcome words I am going to keep in the back of my mind. Thank you.
We have these two players who both play rogues, and whenever they're not able to show up to a session, we just rule it that they're making really good stealth checks.
I practically drop everything when I get a notification from your channel, Matt! Great stuff! Love the tips! Thanks for all the work :)
18:48 19:04 you got the same scene twice, almost thought I was going crazy
Something was changed in the Matrix.
Reminds me of the glitch in the film "Minority Report" ...such an example was referred to as 'an echo'.
I want to be a NPC
Jim Murphy Really enjoyed your interview!
thank you, play on
Fuck, why didnt I think about using Jim Murphy as an NPC...?
"Why's Matt burned out from politics?" *looks at video date* "Oh.. yeah.."
I run a DMPC in my game and all of my players love it and for the most part I think it's because originally I chose to do it because... well a group without a healer is dangerous so yeah.
Essentially though I'm a Druid who's very stoic and doesn't care much about civilization but the PC's are on a quest where she's essentially the guide... I guess think Gandalf but while she does help them in combat and other stuff she's rarely of any help or doesn't even care about what's going on socially unless it's Undead, Aberrations or destroying nature. She's actually been the last to get magic items and has the least still so it's not like I favor her I just look at her as an NPC that is in the party... sorta near permanently because there's no story reason they'd separate for the foreseeable future. ALTHOUGH if RPG's and life have taught me anything it's the the foreseeable future never goes how you want it to.
Your moment with the flash was exactly how I felt speaking with Mordenkainen in Curse of Strahd. Didn't know he'd be there, and my first interaction with him was counterspelling his fireball... When I found out who he was, I was starstruck.
"Never let anybody tell you that a small group of dedicated people can't change the world. In fact, it's the only thing that ever has." Thank you for that.
Along with "A man is greater than the worst thing he's ever done" I'm starting to think you have a knack for deeply ethical statements.
The first one is an Aaron Sorkin West Wing quote...
"Let's take a break from politics for one or two videos."
-15 videos later-
15:52 love the quality of your mic Matt, I managed to hear your phone vibrate from a notification on the desk somewhere!
My group always has DMPCs (it's one of the only ways we can agree on who DMs since we'd all rather play!), but we're very good about making sure the DMPCs have the least amount of limelight during RP so that the PCs truly shine.
I use to hate DMPC characters, until I started running them from time to time.
Basically a DMPC can work if the following criteria are meet:
1) You are playing in round robin game. Basically the group shares DM responsiblities some how. Like for example DM runs this chapter, and then someone else runs the next chapter.
2) When it is your turn to be DM you make sure you push your DMPC to the side as much as possible.
Like for example in a game of Exalted I ran, my DMPC was a Lunar exalted who had who own nation near the PCs base operations. As such, he was always busy dealing with his nation when it was my turn to DMPC. And those few times he showed up it was to ask for help from the PCs with a problem in his nation.
And in a recent game of Pathfinder, I ran session of the game so that we did not have to wait 3 weeks for a new game. Basically in order to get him off the stage, I had the entrance to the dungeon be a small tunnel he could not fit down, but the PCs had access to a Reduce Person so he
Basically when you are DMing, you shove your DMPC off or to the side of the stage as quickly as possible and NEVER use him to solve challenges.
3) Be highly ethical about running your DMPC. Don't give him anything you would not give a PC. And when you have the slightest doubt that something could be unfair, throw it out for the rest of the players to decide what the most fair thing to do would be.
I'm planning on running a game just for my girlfriend and myself to play, but she isn't familiar with 5E at all, so I was planning on playing an NPC companion for her, or a DMPC as you mentioned. I am a little worried of removing her agency in the game, so I plan on playing a gnome who isn't very smart, and who is always getting into trouble, to help guide her through these underground tunnels in the beginning of the game. He WILL make mistakes, as its simply a part of his character, but he will also be there to help her in battle, but I will tell my girlfriend that she has to tell him what she would like him to do in battle, and I will help her make sense of his abilities. Over time, I'm hoping she will just take full control of the gnome as well as her own character in battle. Thanks for these videos, you have given much insight into running games I plan on doing in the future.
Nice, you're good boyfriend. Here is a thought: how about eventually killing the gnome instead and give the character chance to overcome grief of losing a companion whom she had a soft spot for? Dramatic loss like that would add another layer to the character. Player, your girlfriend, would feel pity, empathy and compassion to her character which is likely to strengthen their bond.
ulkem And she would probably stop speaking to me for a week, because I killed off a character she liked... Or she might hate him and be glad he's dead.
What I did was play an NPC who was very stoic except for specific things which related to the main plot hook but obviously it's just make sure they aren't the first ones to voice their opinion is the best way to put it.
Dallon Verhaeghe I do this, too - totally workable, just be flexible and have a good time. Fun!
19:10 you can't do this to me, Matt, I feel like I'm going crazy
Wait. You like The Sword and D&D?! OMG. Did we just become best friends?
YYyep!
I know it’s been six years since you posted this video but wanted to let you know that your “the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice” comment brought me to tears. Thank you.
doobly do and bla bla, matt your starting to sound like a jazz artist.
Loved this video! Apologies ahead of time for the essay of a comment I'm about to leave, but I have a lot to say about DMPCs:
I've seen DMPCs done poorly a lot of times, but I also think you can do them right as long as you follow one common sense guideline: they should never be more important than the players.
You can have your NPC make suggestions. But they should only be on rare occasion, and should ideally never be a full plan (Eg, instead of "We should go find a captain in this port to sail us to the next town where we can petition help from the Lord of this territory", it should be more like "I think maybe we could petition for help from somebody?").
You can have your NPC be stronger in combat. But you have to balance this out somehow: maybe the NPC is strong enough to kill cultists in one hit, but the players are the only ones capable of stopping the demon-summoning ritual. So the NPC will be holding off the masses of enemies while the PCs are fighting the final boss.
You can have your NPC be (outwardly) more integral to the plot. But the players should be the ones making the actual decisions. For example, maybe the players are traveling with the Lost Princess, and the plot is to kill Tyrant Evildude and reinstate her as queen. But the players should be the ones to make the battle plans and trying to garner the support of other political figures.
You can have your DMPC be all sorts of things, but ultimately it has to be the PLAYERS making the decisions.
To compare some examples from how I've seen DMPC's done:
In a game I ran, I had a DMPC. His name was Sir Elias Gregor of Wigston. He was a lovable cinnamon roll of a paladin who cared dearly for his friends (the PCs). He was an NPC from the second session all the way to the very end of the campaign, and the PCs absolutely loved him (I specifically asked, and they unanimously said he was one of their favorite NPCs in any game they had played). And I think a big part of this was because:
-He was never stronger than anybody in combat. He was far weaker than the other melee-oriented PC
-He still played an important role in combat, namely protecting the party sorcerer from harm
-He was vocal during downtime RPs, but always let the rest of the party make the decisions (because he cared more about protecting his friends, not being a leader).
-He NEVER took treasure from the party. Magical items were always given preference toward the actual PCs.
Contrast with a DMPC in a game I'm currently playing in:
There is a Sapphire Hierarch (Cleric PrC) named Blue. He is the leader of a powerful organization, and incredibly LG. He hired us to help him unite different factions through the world to fight against a powerful necromancer. He has been an NPC in our party for this entire arc of the game (~10 sessions), and I hate him. This is because:
-He makes all the decisions FOR us. He chooses which factions we appeal to, the order in which we visit them, and when it is time to negotiate, he *refuses* to let us participate (despite the party rogue maxing out his Diplomacy skill).
-He makes us unnecessary. This entire game would have been the exact same if our PCs were replaced by iron golems following him around and protecting him in combat.
-He never speaks during downtime RPs, but ALWAYS superceeds us when we try to suggest ideas for how to proceed. Thus, we don't care for him as a character, and can't stand him as a leader.
tl;dr, DMPCs are perfectly fine, as long as you make absolutely certain that they never make the players feel like they aren't necessary.
DMing my first session this Monday, using a lot of advice from your channel. Thank you, Matt, for inspiring me to be a Dungeon Master.
First time I heard some mention about the high level npc's, I totally understand in a campaign a play in a high level npc regularly appears and has really made the group feel useless in a few situations
I think the only way that a DMPC has worked for me was when the NPC was the giver of the plot hook. They journey'd, helped incidentally(because no one wanted to be a wizard or sorcerer), then when they hit 'high level', I had the NPC leave, and pursue their own agenda. The players ran into them again later, but then they were captured by the bad guys.
I ended up with a full-on DMPC once (started because we didn't have enough players, continued because she served as both a healer and a rogue). For ease of access, I copied her (digital) character sheet onto a piece of notebook paper, and would at times hand the paper over to the players (in general, the players as a group dictated her combat choices, and sometimes even rolled for her). This worked out really well - when a PC was incapacitated or at a different in-game location, their player could play the DMPC. Once a player brought his girlfriend to the game because she was in town, and instead of leaving her on her phone for hours like they had planned, I handed her the DMPC sheet and she controlled the character for that session.
I found it worked out a lot better than the stereotypical DMPC for several reasons: 1) The character was a healing and out-of-combat utility character, so the party found her really useful. She was good in combat, but only did substantial damage when in a good position. Occasionally she'd do tons of damage when set up perfectly, but the other players took that as something to celebrate, because the party was getting things done. 2) Her personality was not very assertive, so she didn't try to steal the spotlight (though she would occasionally make observations, propose ideas and vote for less murderhobo-y plans). 3) I was good at separating my "DM" and "player" minds and knowledge, and the other players trusted me to do that. I suspect these factors together are not super common among DMPCs, but in my experience they made it work.
This guy... This GUY is a briliant DM, has amazing big community, works on games, is awesome writer and HE MET FLASH. can YOU trump that?
Of COURSE, you can. you are the BEST!
My GM plays a character in our party but does an excellent job, his character doesn't steal the show, is as flawed as any of our characters and usually takes more of a support role to the party - power level is comparable to the rest of the party but doesn't lead in decision making or get the plot hooks. As players we also don't look to that character for GM knowledge-bleed. It works well for our group, especially because we are a small group already and we've played sessions with only 2 players so we needed the GM's character so that there's enough of us to not die. We have had one of our players guest GM for a few sessions his own adventure so that was the first time our GMs character played a larger, more active role and got more character development. But I totally get advising against GMs playing characters as it's hard to do well and few people achieve that delicate balance.
Is it just me or is there repetition around 19:00 ish?
There was a change in the Matrix.
+Mathew Colville
There was a change in the Reptile God
Thank god it's not just me I thought I was losing my fucking mind
It wasn't repeated film, but I think he said something and then forgot that he'd already said it when he edited the video. It's from 18:44 to 18:54.
2 years ago I had my own PC in the game I was running and I didn’t have a problem with it and neither did my players. He was a war cleric who was with them at the beginning of Storm King’s Thunder. He died “off screen” during the siege of Bryn Shander. I only put him in the story cause at the time no other PC knew how to heal and o knew they needed a healer. He didn’t take initiative in conversations and didn’t have any magic items other than a silver mace.
I actually had a DM that managed to pull off the DMPC thing pretty well. He made this prince, who was a bit cowardly but became quick friends with the party. He managed to balance his usefulness with some cowardliness and we always knew not to rely on him, because his idea of how to do things were more frequently wrong than right. It was actually a lot of fun.
That outro was heavy.
There's that word again. "Heavy."
Matthew Colville Seemed fitting. You have improved all of my games. I love you
Things must be heavier in the future!
Matt, can we get your stronghold rules sometime?
yeah that's video I wanna see
supersam hammer Yarp
these charts sound great
On the reddit he said that he's working on them a bit over Thanksgiving; sounds like we'll have them semi-soon. :)
Sounds good. The PC:s in my game have a way to go until they hit those levels. I bet they would look forward to leveling up even more then.
OH MY GOD YES! Just in time too! I was planning a one on one this weekend for a friend and I've been waiting for this video.
Thanks Matt!
This waiting on those stronghold rules :P
These videos are a gold mine! Thank you so much for disrupting your writing schedule for the sake is perpetuating more D&D!
You look like my old calc teacher.
That's not a bad thing, by the way. He's a cool guy.
Matthew I want these follower charts! They look awesome, but I can't find them online can you help me?
I like the idea on using your non-gaming friends as high level NPCs. When I had DMPCs, I always kept them at “home base” wherever that was (party’s ship, castle, house, shop, wagon, whatever) practicing their trade and doing whatever administrative tasks the party needed. It gave a good RP reason for a character to stay home, and it was an easy job to rotate characters in an out of depending on who was DMing that adventure. And, of course, the DMPC could keep an ear out for rumors and find work for the party, making it an easy way to deliver adventure hooks.
We've played Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st and 2nd edition alot over the years, decades, and something we always end up doing is adopting NPCs. We latch on to some random NPC, well planed by the GM or just a random on the spot inspiration, and adopt them, make them into close allies, into party members, hired help and so on.
I think the GM(s) usually find that very entertaining, having NPCs close to the characters that the players get to interact with often and that even get to experience what the character experiences, having that constant development to entertain yourself with as a GM, and we love having them to interact with, build bonds, friendships, relations and something more than just a group of adventurers, a seed of an organization.
One of my personal favorits was a playthrough of 1000 thrones where in none of the players characters was any good at fighting or even magic. We were students, nobles, egnineering professors (dwarven schoolar) and social manipulators (spy) and we had to rely on contacts, allies, hierlings and others to actually fight if not for us then atleast with us and if we ended up in situations with out help - make deals, no matter how evil and corrupt they might be, just do whatever you have to survive to fight another day.
It was an incredible campaign and I still miss my own characters network of students, "sparrows", running errands and keeping eyes on possible suspects through out the major cities. WHFRP, such memories. Shame we never got to see that group of characters grow into the investigative inquisitors they were meant to be.
... Are you sure the city wasn't called "Los Santos"?
Yes. San Angelo is a classic city supplement for superhero games. Originally for Champions, but now ported to a few other systems. It's widely regarded as one of the best books for a modern city in any system.
Can we get a link to that chart? I'd love to have that in my campaign.
I think his system mechanics for holdings and followers have been requested quite alot. I agree though, I'd love to see them. I'm fairly new to D&D despite decades of RPGaming experience (that's just how we roll in Scandinavia) and my players are starting to get there now that I might need some inspiration and help in what to do with them when they want to branch out in their world and carve serious name for themselves in the local community.
F4R207 Yeah my guys are getting to the level where building a keep isn't out of the question too. His rules sounded neat
I may be mistaken, but I think there is something on the DM's Guild that has fortress guidelines for running them in your game.
Also, in the 5e DMG there is guidelines for upkeep of a player base. Makes a good plot hook if the PC's have to go adventuring to earn enough so that they can maintain thier base of operations.
Yeah I think I saw some on there a while ago.
I just want more, more input, more information and options and suggestions and inspiration befor I start changing things around to suit me and my groups needs.
In Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, in the Darksun Campaign Setting there was a mechanism for what was called a Character Tree. It was a fun system where the player could have a pool of PCs to choose from, they would only play one at a time (generally) but while the PC they played earned XP the rest of the characters in the tree also gained XP (at a reduced rate of course).
So you mentioned how you make your DMPC's as sidekicks. That is good as a lot of the DM NPC's/PC's that I have encountered have stolen the spotlight and really made me as a player feel like secondary or tertiary character. A great experience I once had as a player was to play as 'the sidekick'. While I usually have an active role in our group; take the lead in negotiations, lead the charge in combat. But when I was playing Bill the Bard I was submissive in the game world. I cooked their food, washed their clothes, setup camp, broke down camp...His motivation was his performance. In combat I would use bardic music to enhance the party and then ready an action to run away if any enemies came near me. While he wasn't a hero, the people I play with still remember Bill the Bard. That could be because he weighed in at 350lbs+ wore a ring of sustenance, ate and drank WAY more than normal and with all the feats, could travel nearly 70 MPH when fleeing.
I have 2 things to comment on this
1: I almost always play a GMPC with my group, because there's only two of them besides me and they always get bored of just talking to each other, so it's good to have someone else they can chat with. I usually try to make them fill some niche in the party that no one else wants to (I'll play a spellcaster if they're both playing fighter types, or i'll make her a cleric since no one ever seems to want to play the healer, or a trap-deactivating specialist rogue or something like that) and as far as I know it's never been an issue. Now they could just be hiding their annoyance from me, but I don't *think* they are. Just my thoughts on it.
2: When it comes to players' "second characters" that they recruit... I've had this issue a few times but one of my players is really bad about it. They come up with this really neat character idea that they want to play (The latest was a dire tiger they'd had as a companion for a while, that they sought out a druid and had her awakened so she could become intelligent and take class levels as a rogue) but then after they have all that done he just... gives up on it. it suddenly becomes my burden to outfit and stat and control and rp what's essentially a full new character that i didn't make or even necessarily want to make. So now i'm in charge of this character that I'm not terribly invested in and don't put a ton of thought into because it's kind of a side thing to me, not my main focus, and he gets upset because the character isn't as cool as he thought and i'm not putting the work in to make her believable and all that... while being entirely unwilling to play the character himself.
So the question there i guess is: what do
In my current campaign in which I play a Cleric of Trickery, the DM does have a character in the party that everyone loves. Her name is Delai and she’s the exception that proves the rule. For one thing, our DM didn’t have the “I have to run but I wanna play” attitude you were mentioning before, they really just wanted to help balance the party and fill in any gaps left by the relatively small group of PCs. That helped out, but another big thing that made Delai work was that she was with the party from the beginning and had a close relationship with all of them before the game started, on top of also being a genuinely awesome character. And she also never outshines the group during play, because the DM has excellent “Table manners” as we refer to them. Delai has her moments, but she’s not the protagonist, the group is the star of the show as it should be.
Ah... You bring back fond memories of my early years of D&D! Thanks!
Matt your videos are amazing! I'd love to see a video about a session zero. Basically how to flesh out the PCs and the kind of game/campaign you want to run. What level everyone is starting at and how best to mesh the backgrounds of each character into the story and the party's origins.
I often introduce lots of fun characters that my players can recruit to bring with them on their quests. I once ran an entire sea faring campaign where every island had dozens of NPCs with distinct personalities I sourced from Twitter and they could recruit the ones they liked to crew their ship. Melee characters tend to occupy a minion or two and sometimes need to be saved when they dock in a city secretly run by a cult or if their ship is under attack. Casters tend to sit in the back and cast support and buff spells so that they don't steal the spotlight.
I think that usually goes really well and many times, my players have fallen in love with these characters. When that happens, I write some kind of quest relating to their backstory because I know the players will follow it.
I run DMPC's in my campaigns for a few reasons. One, we don't have enough players which is especially important for running published adventures that are balanced for 4-6 players. Two, to let my players play the cool characters they want. My players want to play glass cannons like sorcerers and rogues, I'll throw a meat shield barbarian in the party to help them out. Three, to have someone that can occasionally nudge them forward to keep the game moving. I try not to do this unless the players are really indecisive or lost.
I guess I use them mostly as an extra man in combat that occasionally throws out hints. It seems to be working out so far. My players are happy and feel like the stars not supporting cast. This works for our games but I can see how it can get out of hand.
New DM here btw, these videos have really helped so thanks Matt. I see you read Locke & Key, nice.
What's more fun is one a character's old NPC now becomes the villain.
Feeling much more confident about my DMPCs. My girlfriend and I each run a 1 on 1 game for the other we call DM practice. In the one I run for her, she plays a barbarian, so naturally, I gave her a cleric buddy I run because if her character dies, the game ends. It very much started as a Doom Guy and Isabelle joke. The cleric is, in fact, a dog girl named Isabelle, but my girlfriend has latched onto her in a way that absolutely elevates the story. She can't imagine this game without her little buddy, but it still absolutely feels like it is her story.
As for hirelings, I'm personally using one in my current campaign. Party rolled up with no designated healer. The only one with any healing capabilities is an artificer with access to cure wounds. So I offered them the chance to have the adventurers guild supply them with a healer in training. Got buy-in from everyone first, and they really vibe with the character. I'm careful to make them an interesting person for the group to interact with while mostly keeping them in the background unless it makes sense and won't feel like they're taking the spotlight.
So, I suppose *why* you make a DMPC matters. I've definitely played with ones that existed so the DM could be the hero, but I've also played with ones who exist to bolster and buff a party in ways that are wanted and needed.
I've had high level NPCs in the games I've run before, and I think only once have I used one to help bail the players out. The setting was a fusion of fantasy and 1920s, and the PCs owned a jazz club. One of the patrons would frequently chat with one of the players, and that was a relationship the player worked on building. The guy appeared well-off, and he was, in fact, a powerful half-fiend red dragon. I wasn't planning on doing anything with him, and just had him as an Easter egg referencing a villain I never got to use as the game he was going to be used in ended in a total party wipe. The player would continually look for this guy and offer up some charming conversation, so I had him keep going back.
During one session, the players were in the final room of a dungeon in which they faced off against a half-dragon lich and a beholder at the same time. I imagined mechanics where the players would try to get the beholder's attention and have him point his central eye at the lich to temporarily cut off the lich's spells. The lich and beholder worked together, but they didn't get along and they fought like they weren't allies. But of course, plans fail and the lich went first. I had him cast prismatic spray (and this was in 3.5), since it seemed like a neat spell. Well, two of the party was turned into stone, one was plane shifted to the negative energy plane (randomly rolled), and another player took a bunch of damage. I ended up having the NPC dragon come in after the two living pcs teleported out to collect the petrified pcs and then plane shift to fetch the other before he died. He covered the cost to unpetrify the others. So I really just used the NPC to prevent another near total party wipe. Without him, three of the players would have had to reroll, and that definitely would have slammed the brakes on the campaign. I figured having the dragon step in was earned since it was the player that kept up relations with him, and she never knew that he was actually a dragon. Plus, the encounter was still undefeated, so the players got to go back and have their revenge.
would just like to throw out a huge thank you, i dont GM games often so im always open to tips and thanks to you im throwing together stuff id never think of. I have just finished watching your video on skill challenges and now my party are totally going to do one tonight :)
I know this video is old, and nobody will probably read this, but I just discovered you and enjoy your insights. So here's one for every DM out there. My old DM had two separate DMPC's, and they both worked well. The first was the character that didn't really care what happened. It was a cleric of the god of travel and heroism, whoever that was. He was happy just being part of the adventure, so didn't make choices, but kept us alive so we could keep making awesome stories. The second was a fully fleshed-out wizard with a backstory and motivations who showed up while already deep in a quest, therefore he couldn't direct us away from it. But the players chose his prepared spells everyday, so the DM couldn't metagame and what he could do was based on what the players were expecting. Both characters worked very well to aid the party without forcing the players to do what the DM wanted.
And I had a DMPC once. Here was a newly awakened warforged and was still learning his personality, so he took his cues from the players. Worked well enough and still gave the players 100% agency without me guiding them one bit.
Matt the way you ended that Video gave me chills. Thank you for such encouraging and educated words.
Loved this video! And it also validated my take on using my 'PCs' as 'DMPCs' to help introduce and adventure. In an earlier video, you mentioned that you introduce a 'high level' bad guy early in the game to help with denouement. I like to use my high level PCs for that! The new players are often in a group, as mercenaries or something to that effect, protecting the caravan, with the high level DMPCs. Then after a few fights where these PCs dominate (but allow enough opportunity for the players to 'shine' - poor initiative or fumbled rolls) they get 'captured' and the players have a choice to continue with their current mission or to set out on an adventure to rescue these DMPCs... I've found this a fun way to get them started on a quest line and it is also easier to get them to accept it without feeling railroaded.
I'm running a game with my brothers, and I made a dmpc because it's just the 3 of us and I also wanted to play. A Goliath paladin of vengeance. She is pretty dumb and always rushes in and tanks. She also isn't interested in being a hero, more motivated by gold and the thrill of combat. So far it's been going great because they decide what to do unless they get stuck and need a nudge. .. I only attempted this because of what I've learned listening to your tips.. so thank you for all the great content, you are wonderful
i had the module/book for T1-2 (village and temple), and i was amazed at the amount of detail in both. i once started counting up all the various weapons (non-magical) in all the locations, but i quickly got overwhelmed. there was enough to arm an army, and there was almost enough loose coin around to hire one as well. of course, you'd have to defeat a lot of people, but just the idea they put that much into it was stunning. plus it's a good adventure, meant for old school extended exploration/siege.
I used hirelings a lot in my last game. They were a lot of fun. They’d always be “support types” to not steal the thunder of the players; Men at arms with halberds, elf ranger types, minor priests. Good times. I would sometimes use them as “red shirts”, and the NPCs/Monsters would target them in combat first, so the PCs could gauge the attackers.
The time the players watched their hireling Howitzer Greenleaf (essentially the Green Elf from Gauntlet) get max damage crit’d and killed by the Minotaur, is still a moment talked about by the players, and served to show how gross the thing the players were up against was.
We once had a friend throw a potted plant against a wall in the middle of a Diplomacy game (not his apartment by the way) and then storm out. None of us heard from him for 2 months. It was truly awesome. (PS: great video, love the stronghold table.)
Damn, dude, I could have guessed within a couple weeks when you recorded this video as soon as you said, "Gosh, I am burned out on politics now for obvious reasons."
It's 2022, and I still feel this. :(
I ran a DM NPC and she was basically constantly getting the party into scraps or worse. She pushed a good aligned paladin to his death, she sold drugs behind the party's back which backfired, she was constantly causing brawls and other issues. She was really just great for shaking things up when we needed something to happen
Had to double-check the date on this video when I got to the end. Still timely.