This comment is to sincerely apologize for accidentally misgendering Ruby. I tried so hard to make sure I was correctly labeling them. I even asked my editor for this episode to correct me if I slipped up. We did our best to address them properly but this isn’t to provide excuses. Just to say it was never done intentionally and I hope people can allow me some grace in knowing that I was wholeheartedly doing my best. Thank you for watching.
There's a difference between someone doing it maliciously and someone genuinely trying and slipping up, most of us are pretty ok with the second. Its clear you weren't deliberately trying to hurt them
It was clear you weren't intentional or malicious in it, we are human. I would assume that especially coming from a Cult-y background, you likely never even had the vocabulary or references to non binary, genderfluid, etc, etc. It's a steeper learning curve, and you can give yourself some grace.
Well, I am not surprised at all that Chavie would have such an intelligent, thoughtful child. Thank you Ruby for sharing your thoughts and truth with us. Bravo.
I could honestly listen to Chavie share her perspectives ALL DAY. Holy shit what a wonderful human. Grateful for her to have come back and share her beautiful family with us! ❤❤
My grandparents left the ultra orthodox community in Borough Park, New York, when my mother was just a baby. I am grateful and I am so proud of this family. Amazing. Things are on the horizon for them. -Vanessa
I can really see how much Chavie and Ruby trust each other. The fact that Chavie said she wanted the internet to feel "right for *them*" is so telling; that her goal wasn't to control Ruby, but to help them understand themselves and what they feel resonates with them and makes them feel safe and valued. Incredible.
Ruby is such a reflection of their mom! The way they spoke about the parts of themselves that they like the most are from their mom resonates with me so much. I miss my mom every day.
I cried throughout the whole video, listening to these stories always makes me feel grateful and lucky that I was given this much freedom from the day I was born, and it also made me more understanding towards people who live inside these communities. I work in a book store and a few days ago an orthodox Jew walked in and spent hours reading all kinds of book on different topics, and left only when I had to close for the day (he didn't buy anything). In the past I might have been weirded out by this person but after listening to your podcast I felt glad that he had this opportunity to read everything he did that day, and I hope that it is a step towards a better life for him.
Wow, so awesome seeing a fellow nonbinary person on your channel! I too am nonbinary. It took me a long time to accept it due to growing up LDS even if I knew my mom would be accepting. The anti-LGBTQ rhetoric is so ingrained in us and my mom was a convert so she didn't know the things LDS primary and young adult teachers were telling us. She feels bad now but I'm so glad her teachings overpowered the church's. I love watching your channel and suggest it to everyone I meet!
Chavie is such an amazing person, love her story and love Shelise for bringing us these wonderful stories of people and their journeys into consciousness.
I'm not dealing with religious trauma, but I am dealing with trauma. And Chavie's Linda Listen really speaks to me. And so does Ruby's. They're important things to remember when healing from any traumas. Chavie, you raised a really wonderful human, and I love seeing how proud you are of them. Ruby, you're doing amazing, keep it up!
This is your first interview that made me cry. Not because of sadness, but because of the beautiful, touching, loving feelings Chavie and Ruby have for each other. Thank you.
Its great to see this being talked about, as an atheist non-binary person. There does seem to be a big link between trans/nb and people who leave these kinds of churches/cults. Whether as a rebellion against the gender roles enforced by the religion or because they are more likely to question those roles. I'm so glad Ruby is in an environment where they can be themselves and live their best life. Its scary how often the courts will allow children to continue being put back into these groups or made to visit with parents still in the cult and be harmed by it, by the people who are meant to protect minors
@@marquitaarmstrong399 You hear it a lot in minors who try to leave the fundie Mormon groups especially, they're "runaways" and Utah especially will often force them back into the group
I am finding the new LGBTQ stuff quite culty tbh there's lots of ideological absolutes that you have to agree to, and compelled language. I think freedom to be who you are without imposing or being imposed on is fantastic and what LGBTQ represented not so long ago. Lately I'm not so sure...
I love what Ruby said about their identity and how they felt growing up. A lot of trans people I’ve met have said similar things, we create an identity that’s not really us but it’s what we are expected to be, so we play that role. It’s very freeing when we can be our true self, even though it takes time to figure out what that is and what that means in ourselves. I hope that everyone knows that exploration never ends and it’s never too late to be your true self, whatever that means for you.
First and foremost, I want to express my deepest gratitude for this incredible conversation. Your ability to listen attentively and your empathetic nature, combined with a genuine curiosity, have moved me to tears. The relationship between Ruby and her mother is truly admirable, and it sets an example for parents to learn from. Their shared goals, their mutual dedication to curiosity and understanding, and their openness to healing and personal growth are truly inspiring. I am especially amazed by Ruby's youth and maturity, as she navigates the journey of self-discovery with grace and without harboring any resentment. Her patient exploration of her true self is supported wholeheartedly by her remarkable mother. I deeply appreciate your insight regarding the need for systemic change and the importance of understanding those who are shaped by these systems, rather than viewing them as villains. Ruby's wisdom and maturity at such a young age are remarkable, and I find myself at 46 years old wishing to possess a similar level of wisdom. Chavie, you are a true role model in your compassionate care, unwavering perseverance, hopeful spirit, and warrior-like resilience. I hope that one day I will have the privilege of meeting you and learning more about your journey to maintain positivity and hold onto hope, even during the most lonely, overwhelming, and fearful moments. As someone who possesses a profound sense of curiosity, I sincerely thank you for this enlightening conversation. With tremendous admiration and respect to all of you I'm grateful.
Chavie is such a beautiful soul and Ruby is even more so if that’s even possible… the love, trust and absolute respect for each other that this Mother and child have for one another is so raw and refreshing… the world would be a much better place if there were more relationships like this 😊
What a beautiful conversation and interview. Thank you all for sharing ❤ Ruby, thank you for speaking up to the judge for what was best for you. Too often the judges and lawyers make decisions based on what’s “best” for the parents, not what is best for the children. I feel like you spoke up for all the kids that don’t have a voice in custody situations.
This is hands down the most beautiful energy in one interview I've ever experienced. Thank you to all three stunning humans for sharing this conversation. 💖
this really made me tear up Ruby seems like a wonderful person and a credit to her mother's battle it makes me think about the sacrifices my mother made for us
Newbie here🙋🏻♀️ I stumbled onto your channel one day when it randomly appeared on my UA-cam homepage and it just so happened to be Chavie’s story. I had never heard or watched anything like it! It was such an eye opening story for someone like myself who grew up with total religious freedom/choices in my family. It was SO raw, emotional, and selfless. Then to hear Ruby’s experience.. phewww what a great follow-up to the original story/episode! Bring them back on😃
same! I found this channel from Chavie's other video. it had been sitting in my "watch later" list for a good while because I didn't realize it was a podcast style video and the length had me waiting for a good time to sit down and watch
I stumbled on your channel as I took a rest day, and the story of Chavie and ultimately Ruby and Chavie were the first and second interviews I watched. I felt so impacted by their stories and very inspired by the strength And dignity Chavie has shown. I had a high conflict separation and fought for custody of my son, and it was so so difficult, it still is, and a lot of what was being said resonated. I spent part of my childhood growing up with a religious mother and the reach of the (born again) Christian church was so invasive. A lot of abuse was pedalled under the guise of being religious support and as a young teen I had to endure ‘exorcism’ by church elders and missionaries. I am working through some of the damage done. Thanks so much for these insights and for the assurance that we aren’t alone. Love the ‘Linda listen’ too! You are all such amazing people.
Ruby is such a wise young adult. It’s amazing to me the concepts and understanding they have about the world… at any age. And such a refreshing, understanding point of view. Chavie, also clearly an amazing person, has clearly done a wonderful job.
Ruby's Linda Listen moment was so wise beyond their mere 20 years. They've clearly worked so hard to grow, heal, and expand their mind and boundaries and the message they gave is one that people *many* years their senior still need to hear.
I wish I had the intestinal fortitude that Ruby had when I was younger. I was raised a strict southern Baptist and it was miserable being forced into going to church and youth group when I didn’t believe what I was being taught. I would be myself at school but when I got home I had to force myself to become a fake person or risk more beatings from my mother. I raised my own daughter to be a strong, independent person free to express herself how she wanted to, as long as she didn’t break the rules at school, and to explore and express her own identity. My mother tried to control every aspect of my life from my hair cut all the way down to my shoes. She gave me no freedom to be myself at home or around other people outside of school. School was the only place I could be me. My mother was nothing like Ruby’s. I wish she had been because I never really felt love from her right up until the day she died. I still don’t know what it’s like to be loved unconditionally by someone. It’s difficult to love yourself, much less someone else, when you never had a model or example in your life.
Did you go to vacation Bible School? I was born Catholic went to Catholic School and then; my uncle Richie introduced me to Pentecostal religion need I say anymore.... ✌🏼
Chavie and Ruby are INCREDIBLE. I'm totally and completely blown away by both of them! I love that Chavie briefly referred to the Upstate New York controversy; I grew up almost 4 hours north of Chavie and was still very much not allowed to refer to it as "Upstate New York" lol!! Actual upstaters, like those close to Canada, will come for you if you do, as Chavie has clearly experienced. 😂
Oh they absolutely will. North Country residents will absolutely remind everyone that they are the true upstate. Buffalo also gets indignant about NYC’s lack of geography skills. And calling the Northern Suburbs “upstate” is as borderline criminal as telling anyone from the North Country that anyone south is “upstate”. Hudson Valley residents really don’t like being called upstate when even Albany says we are downstate.
@@LeadTrumpet1 Yes! The politics of NYS geography are heavy lol! When speaking with a fellow New Yorker, I'll change my description of where I live depending on the place they call home. The one thing that tends to unite everyone in the state outside of NYC is resentment over the fact that city residents and the rest of the world act as if the city IS the state lol!
Shelise, you are so very talented in interviewing people. It always seems like your interviewee comes out of it so uplifted, even when talking about difficult subjects and experiences. You really do embody the consciousness you so obviously value. Thanks for highlighting these beautiful humans.
Such a well-spoken young person. You can just feel the love that Ruby and Chavie have for eachother. I think that Chavie is so incredibly profound as well when she said that the only thing that she can control is the relationship she has with her children. That's a viewpoint that I think a lot of parents would really benefit from. And Shelise, I can tell that you really tried hard to respect and to self-correct yourself with using the correct pronouns with Ruby. It's hard to work against your own brain. Please never forget to give yourself grace when you're coming from a place of genuine care and learning
Without the label "Hassidic community" the way Ruby and their siblings were treated at school would be called child abuse. Thankfully, they have a strong enlightened mother.
Thank you so much for sharing your stories with us. As a nonbinary person who was not raised with religion at all, I struggled deeply with the systems of patriarchy. I can't imagine how hard it would have been coming from a high demand religious background. You are both shining examples of humanity and the bond between mother and child. It is truly heartwarming. All the best to you!!
Chavie and one of her children! I am beyond interested to hear Ruby's POV. Will add more after! What a terrific parent/child relationship Chavie and Ruby have. Ruby's empathy is incredible and they will be a remarkable person in the world. Chavie is a strong, bright, and resilient woman. Thank you for sharing these stories with us!
Chavi is such a lovable person, im so happy she is able to live her best life now, and give that to her children as well! She’s been through so much hardship and so happy she had a happy ending for her family
I moved to Rockland County a few years ago (originally from South Africa) and the Hasidic community has always facilitated me to no end. I’ve met a large amount of people who have left that community and their stories. I’m glad to be hearing this too! ❤
This was a wonderful interview! Chavie is such a good mother to Ruby and, presumably, to her other children as well. Ruby has a great head on her shoulders and I wish them all the best out of life.
Ruby & Chavie, thank you for being wonderful, kind and compassionate people. It gives me hope to see how people can grow and be kind in the face of hardship and to be able to build a better world instead of blaming people, loving people and blaming the systems or at least holding them to account. It can be easy to blame people for the pain, but often they are victims too. Better systems make the world better
Another uplifting interview Shelise. Chavie you are an inspiration. Ruby never stop exploring life and all its possibilities knowing you have your mom for support and guidance. Thank you for being open and honest. I am sure you are going to inspire more and more people who feel stuck in cults to realize there is a way out and a future full of choices.
I absolutely loved this video! Seeing a young person coming into their own and seeing Chavie's face as her child spoke, all the love, pride, and joy there was beautiful! Young people like Ruby give me hope for the future. They are truly remarkable!
Omg, Chavie must be so incredibly proud of Ruby. Ruby's so emotionally intelligent and cool. ❤ What a beautiful family. ❤ I would love to know what Ruby wants to study in college? Oh, and congrats on your engagement, Chavie! ❤
Chavie is absolutely adorable and so is Ruby. I'm so proud of them for being true to themselves and speaking out like this because it really helps people.
I am not Jewish but Greek Orthodox. The Jewish have a blessing used for when a loved one passes away, however it is a beautiful blessing, and one that I would like to give them for a different context. For Chavie and Ruby, I wish you both a long life. Because you are both brave and amazing humans, and I wish you both the very best for as long as possible. Your stories are amazing.
This interview was great! Ruby is so sweet and smart. They are going to do great in life! I have sooo many questions: how is their relationship with their dad now; how is their relationship with their mom family ; and how the government allows these kids to not have proper education?
I grew up in the same community as Chavie I can’t relate to her story in a lot of ways Thanks for sharing your experience the world needs more brave people
YES YES YES!! The parent/child relationship is what’s important!! 💗💗💗 48:21 could not agree more as far as social media (or any media for that matter 😜) is concerned 💯👏👍
I’ve been binge watching your videos and it’s so hard to choose a story that has impacted me the most when every single person I’ve seen you speak to has been so incredible but omg the feelings that this video and Chavie’s previous one have given me are something else. Chavie seems like the parent all children deserve. The fact she had to continue to live in a way that had traumatised her in order to be able to see her children and to give them choices, I just cannot imagine the unbelievable strength that must have taken for all those years. She and her story are the proof that a parent’s love for their children can be strong enough to fight almost anything. And now to see what a wonderful, mature, intelligent and compassionate young adult Ruby is. 😭 you can see the pride in Chavie’s eyes through this entire video. I doubt they’ll see this but Chavie and Ruby I am so so pleased for you and in awe of you, and I am so grateful that you shared your story. It has had an impact on me and I’m sure many others. Shelise, the work you are doing is incredible. Thank you so much for giving so many amazing people the platform to share their stories, from the bottom of my heart, I am so grateful. 💜
Loved how you explained boundaries & how to set them & it is ok to do that. I talked about this with my younger nieces & my older niece said no one talked about setting boundaries & specially with girls.
I enjoyed this video. Those two are so adorable! Being in the LGBT community, I know what it's like to be in a controlling fundamentalist religious home.❤🌈
Thank you both for sharing your stories! You both seem like such kind and interesting people and you restore some of my faith in humanity. Good luck with college Ruby!
I'm literally in tears. The path Chavie created for herself, Ruby and the other kids is EVERYTHING. As a mother, Ruby is everything you want your child to be- better than yourself. Kudos to bravery paying off.
I felt like Chavie was such a bright flame in the previous show....OMG! Ruby burns the house down. Awesome personal triumphs for both! Edit fixed autocorrect, again, lol
15:39 similarly, as far as observant kids… when my oldest was around 9 or 10 (almost a decade ago now), I don’t remember specifically what we were talking about (with his younger brother who was 4 or 5), he states… I think being gay is weird… then I said, non-judgmentally… hmm, oh really, well, ever since I can remember, I’ve liked both females AND males, so I’m kinda gay… he responds… oh wow, that’s cool, it’s like your ambidextrous, but with gender!! And of course I realize that it’s not a perfect metaphor for bisexuality, but it was still a pretty amazing response in the moment 🎉
There is not one malicious bone in Sha's entire anatomy. She is just so sweet and accepting of others. Her heart-rendered apology gave an insight of her resume.
omg love this so much! i hope we’ll get to hear more from them! respect to both of them for going through all of this and coming out the other end being more insightful and emotionally mature than most grown adults, let alone 20 year olds. their relationship is so sweet too. a lot of people, queer kids especially aren’t so lucky unfortunately
Ruby is so incredibly wise and self-aware for such a young person, I admire them so much!! Chavie is an amazing mother & role model to aspiring moms such as myself; I hope to instill my future children with the same courage, autonomy, & convictions💖
There is so much to say here. Chavie is a force of nature and I'm simultaneously so sorry for all the pain and suffering she experienced while also so grateful she escaped and turned her and her children's lives around. I can't imagine the courage and strenght that would take and I am in awe. One part I can't comprehend is how and why she was legally forced (by a judge, I assume) to pretend to still be faithful around her children. How can the law force that on anyone, that is such a violation. Thanks to Chavie and Ruby, I hope you are living your best lives (and congratulations on your engagement, that warms my heart so much). Thank you Shelise for always plateforming wonderful guests ❤
out of all the things I was expecting to hear from shelise's podcast, one of her guests being a city-as alum was not one of them!! I can just imagine the jump from a beis yaakov to there, it must've been the biggest relief they've ever felt to just be around all those interesting people and loving, SUPPORTIVE teachers. It's a place unlike any other I have ever been, and you can just hear that love in ruby's experience. I'm not even done but I just wanted to let both chavie and ruby know that I'm so happy for them ✨
I really love this episode and talking to the children and listening to their perspectives in a space that's open and safe and calming and inquiring. I've been a lesbian for over 3 decades and sometimes give the kids shyt about the LGBTQIA/binary/non-binary identifications. Ruby helped me understand this more and her explanation made me understand that we are all very similar and some, like me, still at this age trying to find myself and to better understand myself. Many times without the words. It's good the kids are finding those words and challenging the "norm." Awesome :)
I really resonate with Ruby explaining their experience with gendered expectations and just “playing the role”. I’m also non-binary but I just felt like I was acting along the path of least resistance but also knowing on some deeper level that it was just acting.
These are such lovely people! I'm glad they are living the life that they want. And thank you so much for providing the platform for them to tell their stories. This was truly heartwarming.
I LOVE the outcome that found Ruby experiencing City-As-School… the place that saved my life!!! And, how amazing to have found The Most PROGRESSIVE School in NY (as the needed clash to the prior trauma).
I love your channel over here in the UK and wanted to say what a truly inspiring pair of women, Chavie has done a remarkable job and Ruby is her double❤. Thank you xx
Great Interview! And Kudos to Ruby for her courage. I am still a proud orthodox Jew. However, I definitely do see the downsides of some of the prohibitive structure. I chose to remain faithful and kind of see through and ignore the cult like noise that often prohibits us from finding our true inner self, yet remaining frum. But its a challenge and I'd never want to judge the other side. If I may just add, that I knew two of Ruby's great grandfathers. One was Rabbi Weisberger of blessed memory. He was the complete opposite of "in the box". No airs about him. Never forceful about religion but thoughtful. He didn't even dress like a rabbi despite being one. He wore a straw hat with a tiny non rabbinic like beard. Mrs Weisberger, his wife followed the same path. They were both truly a humble couple. Ruby's other great grandfather Rabbi Wolfson may he live and be well, intentionally doesn't wear the chasdic fur hat even though he is a large chasdic rabbi. He encourages openness and that everyone find the correct path to the Jewish religion within themselves. Despite being Chasidic he has told students to attend college and go to work vs becoming rabbis. I personally heard him discuss the idea that we should speak english vs yiddish. (Again against classic chasidic custom) I know this is contrary to how his sect emunas yisroel is run. But he never wanted his sect to be this cult like. Its unfortunately been hijacked to be that. As he ages it gets worse with him having less of a say. (I think it been highjacked, because he wanted it to be chasdic yet open minded which is unfortunately unacceptable in modern day times from sociology standpoint. Modern day Chasdism falsely misconstrue its teachings as a cult and close minded control freak form of orthodoxy. Its further from the truth and not what its founder the Besht intended. So to be accepted as a fellow Chasidic sub group within the broader group, followers of emuanas yisroel have misconstrued his teachings). I say all this because I heard Chavie so eloquently speak about the importance of the knowledge of who you are ancestors were as an identity. Thus, I say remember you have a humble free thinking roots within the religion as well.
I hope those rabbis can do some good within the cult, even if they can't change the leaders' opinions or directly encourage anyone to leave the community.
Power to both of them, they're beyond remarkable for living their one life 💛 our one responsibility on this planet is to be kind....we're all a little broken...imagine if kindness was the difference between who someone becomes?! 💚🧡🌏💛💜
Ruby's jewelry and accessories are absolutely amazing, I'm a jewelry maker and run a small business. They are exactly the kinda of person I want to wear my jewelry 😂
@beeweisberger7957 OMG, YOU MADE THEM YOURSELF EVEN BETTER!!!! You're so talented!! My favorite jewelry to make is definitely earrings, more specifically, chandelier earrings. Or necklaces! But I make everything from bracelets to beaded bras. My art is my therapy, so I love to branch out in different styles!. Since you made your own jewelry, what's your favorite to make? I'd love to know 💞✨️ sending soooo much love darling. (Ps your advocacy for your pronouns is so inspiring from a fellow NB person! Also sorry this is such a long comment! Ahha)
@@gnomehomeneeds thank you! You’re such a sweetheart! I loveeee chandelier earrings. Also beaded bras sound epic and I’d love to see that. Right now I’m in the beading side of jewelry making and it’s so fun it feels like a puzzle you get to make from scratch. I’m trying to get into some wire and metal stuff though which hasn’t been easy but I love a challenge:) thanks for all the love💖💖💖
@beeweisberger7957 I totally agree! It's a puzzle to put together and make and then WEAR?!?! It's amazing, hahaha! If you have any social media for your jewelry, I'd definitely love to check it out! I do a lot of social media for my small business, so I always love supporting other creators :^)
@@beeweisberger7957omg Ruby during the episode I was thinking how much you’d love the jewellery and stuff my disabled & ND friend Tash makes. Her brand is pawn in suburbia
So much love and acceptance. Such a wholesome interview, it filled my bucket! On a personal note, I really relate to Chavie's parenting philosophy and feel comforted that everything is going to be OK
Another great video. I loved the different perspective. I have a similar story where my father left the orthodox community and the courts made it so he could not talk about it to me or my siblings. I did not know the extent of his disbelief in the religion until I came out to him as a atheist when I was 15. Thankfully I've been able to live with him and not hide who am I seen I came out. It's so refreshing seeing similar stories to my own because they are so uncommon. Thank you for sharing this! (And thank you for posting my comment in my video, much love
@CultstoConsciousness If you ever want another perspective of leaving the community I'd love to go on your channel. I love what you're doing and how you're doing it. I find it great how interactive you are with your audience and I've been Bing watching all of your videos
This comment is to sincerely apologize for accidentally misgendering Ruby. I tried so hard to make sure I was correctly labeling them. I even asked my editor for this episode to correct me if I slipped up. We did our best to address them properly but this isn’t to provide excuses. Just to say it was never done intentionally and I hope people can allow me some grace in knowing that I was wholeheartedly doing my best. Thank you for watching.
We. Are. Human. 💙❤️💜
There's a difference between someone doing it maliciously and someone genuinely trying and slipping up, most of us are pretty ok with the second. Its clear you weren't deliberately trying to hurt them
It was clear you weren't intentional or malicious in it, we are human. I would assume that especially coming from a Cult-y background, you likely never even had the vocabulary or references to non binary, genderfluid, etc, etc. It's a steeper learning curve, and you can give yourself some grace.
I think your response was perfect, and keeping it in is a great example of what to do when you misgender someone.
You know you can edit after the fact right? Just edit out the actual misgendering and keep the apology up
Can we just have Chavie and Ruby back more often? They are such lovely people, this is yet another really touching interview.
Well, I am not surprised at all that Chavie would have such an intelligent, thoughtful child. Thank you Ruby for sharing your thoughts and truth with us. Bravo.
I could honestly listen to Chavie share her perspectives ALL DAY. Holy shit what a wonderful human. Grateful for her to have come back and share her beautiful family with us! ❤❤
Couldn’t agree more!
completely agree!
My grandparents left the ultra orthodox community in Borough Park, New York, when my mother was just a baby. I am grateful and I am so proud of this family. Amazing. Things are on the horizon for them.
-Vanessa
I can’t believe Chavie is 40! She looks so young!
I can really see how much Chavie and Ruby trust each other. The fact that Chavie said she wanted the internet to feel "right for *them*" is so telling; that her goal wasn't to control Ruby, but to help them understand themselves and what they feel resonates with them and makes them feel safe and valued. Incredible.
Chavie is a great mom. She is smart and an angel for her children.
The trust is so evident. The Love. Example to all.
Chavie must be so proud of the person Ruby has become. Ruby is such an intelligent and wise soul. Thanks for sharing their story.
Ruby is such a reflection of their mom! The way they spoke about the parts of themselves that they like the most are from their mom resonates with me so much. I miss my mom every day.
I cried throughout the whole video, listening to these stories always makes me feel grateful and lucky that I was given this much freedom from the day I was born, and it also made me more understanding towards people who live inside these communities. I work in a book store and a few days ago an orthodox Jew walked in and spent hours reading all kinds of book on different topics, and left only when I had to close for the day (he didn't buy anything). In the past I might have been weirded out by this person but after listening to your podcast I felt glad that he had this opportunity to read everything he did that day, and I hope that it is a step towards a better life for him.
Thank you for sharing. I’m so happy that these videos can provide more understanding to those you come in contact with ❤️
Wow, so awesome seeing a fellow nonbinary person on your channel! I too am nonbinary. It took me a long time to accept it due to growing up LDS even if I knew my mom would be accepting. The anti-LGBTQ rhetoric is so ingrained in us and my mom was a convert so she didn't know the things LDS primary and young adult teachers were telling us. She feels bad now but I'm so glad her teachings overpowered the church's. I love watching your channel and suggest it to everyone I meet!
Hey! I'm NB as well! So glad there is a space for us here.
I'm glad your mom supported you, and that you can be yourself now!
Chavie is such an amazing person, love her story and love Shelise for bringing us these wonderful stories of people and their journeys into consciousness.
I'm not dealing with religious trauma, but I am dealing with trauma. And Chavie's Linda Listen really speaks to me. And so does Ruby's. They're important things to remember when healing from any traumas. Chavie, you raised a really wonderful human, and I love seeing how proud you are of them. Ruby, you're doing amazing, keep it up!
This is your first interview that made me cry. Not because of sadness, but because of the beautiful, touching, loving feelings Chavie and Ruby have for each other. Thank you.
Its great to see this being talked about, as an atheist non-binary person. There does seem to be a big link between trans/nb and people who leave these kinds of churches/cults. Whether as a rebellion against the gender roles enforced by the religion or because they are more likely to question those roles. I'm so glad Ruby is in an environment where they can be themselves and live their best life. Its scary how often the courts will allow children to continue being put back into these groups or made to visit with parents still in the cult and be harmed by it, by the people who are meant to protect minors
The courts are 30 yes behind
@@marquitaarmstrong399 You hear it a lot in minors who try to leave the fundie Mormon groups especially, they're "runaways" and Utah especially will often force them back into the group
I am finding the new LGBTQ stuff quite culty tbh there's lots of ideological absolutes that you have to agree to, and compelled language. I think freedom to be who you are without imposing or being imposed on is fantastic and what LGBTQ represented not so long ago. Lately I'm not so sure...
@@ranellnikora48nobody imposes their identity on anyone, we just want representation.. we are people who deserve proper representation
I love what Ruby said about their identity and how they felt growing up. A lot of trans people I’ve met have said similar things, we create an identity that’s not really us but it’s what we are expected to be, so we play that role. It’s very freeing when we can be our true self, even though it takes time to figure out what that is and what that means in ourselves. I hope that everyone knows that exploration never ends and it’s never too late to be your true self, whatever that means for you.
First and foremost, I want to express my deepest gratitude for this incredible conversation. Your ability to listen attentively and your empathetic nature, combined with a genuine curiosity, have moved me to tears. The relationship between Ruby and her mother is truly admirable, and it sets an example for parents to learn from. Their shared goals, their mutual dedication to curiosity and understanding, and their openness to healing and personal growth are truly inspiring. I am especially amazed by Ruby's youth and maturity, as she navigates the journey of self-discovery with grace and without harboring any resentment. Her patient exploration of her true self is supported wholeheartedly by her remarkable mother. I deeply appreciate your insight regarding the need for systemic change and the importance of understanding those who are shaped by these systems, rather than viewing them as villains. Ruby's wisdom and maturity at such a young age are remarkable, and I find myself at 46 years old wishing to possess a similar level of wisdom. Chavie, you are a true role model in your compassionate care, unwavering perseverance, hopeful spirit, and warrior-like resilience. I hope that one day I will have the privilege of meeting you and learning more about your journey to maintain positivity and hold onto hope, even during the most lonely, overwhelming, and fearful moments. As someone who possesses a profound sense of curiosity, I sincerely thank you for this enlightening conversation.
With tremendous admiration and respect to all of you I'm grateful.
Chavie is such a beautiful soul and Ruby is even more so if that’s even possible… the love, trust and absolute respect for each other that this Mother and child have for one another is so raw and refreshing… the world would be a much better place if there were more relationships like this 😊
Nice to see Chavie again, her child is obviously very smart and has a bright future ahead of them.
What a beautiful conversation and interview. Thank you all for sharing ❤
Ruby, thank you for speaking up to the judge for what was best for you. Too often the judges and lawyers make decisions based on what’s “best” for the parents, not what is best for the children. I feel like you spoke up for all the kids that don’t have a voice in custody situations.
Ruby is such a jewel 🤩 glad they are able to shine bright
This is hands down the most beautiful energy in one interview I've ever experienced. Thank you to all three stunning humans for sharing this conversation. 💖
this really made me tear up Ruby seems like a wonderful person and a credit to her mother's battle it makes me think about the sacrifices my mother made for us
*their :)
Newbie here🙋🏻♀️
I stumbled onto your channel one day when it randomly appeared on my UA-cam homepage and it just so happened to be Chavie’s story.
I had never heard or watched anything like it! It was such an eye opening story for someone like myself who grew up with total religious freedom/choices in my family. It was SO raw, emotional, and selfless. Then to hear Ruby’s experience.. phewww what a great follow-up to the original story/episode! Bring them back on😃
Hi Kandace! Welcome to C2C! I’m happy you enjoyed their story. They are both so awesome!
same! I found this channel from Chavie's other video. it had been sitting in my "watch later" list for a good while because I didn't realize it was a podcast style video and the length had me waiting for a good time to sit down and watch
Chavie and Ruby are really incredible people. I enjoyed both interviews so much. I love all the thoughtfulness and grace in their responses.
I stumbled on your channel as I took a rest day, and the story of Chavie and ultimately Ruby and Chavie were the first and second interviews I watched. I felt so impacted by their stories and very inspired by the strength And dignity Chavie has shown. I had a high conflict separation and fought for custody of my son, and it was so so difficult, it still is, and a lot of what was being said resonated.
I spent part of my childhood growing up with a religious mother and the reach of the (born again) Christian church was so invasive. A lot of abuse was pedalled under the guise of being religious support and as a young teen I had to endure ‘exorcism’ by church elders and missionaries. I am working through some of the damage done. Thanks so much for these insights and for the assurance that we aren’t alone. Love the ‘Linda listen’ too!
You are all such amazing people.
I’m sorry you went through that. Welcome to C2C! ❤️
Ruby is such a wise young adult. It’s amazing to me the concepts and understanding they have about the world… at any age. And such a refreshing, understanding point of view. Chavie, also clearly an amazing person, has clearly done a wonderful job.
Ruby's Linda Listen moment was so wise beyond their mere 20 years. They've clearly worked so hard to grow, heal, and expand their mind and boundaries and the message they gave is one that people *many* years their senior still need to hear.
I wish I had the intestinal fortitude that Ruby had when I was younger. I was raised a strict southern Baptist and it was miserable being forced into going to church and youth group when I didn’t believe what I was being taught. I would be myself at school but when I got home I had to force myself to become a fake person or risk more beatings from my mother.
I raised my own daughter to be a strong, independent person free to express herself how she wanted to, as long as she didn’t break the rules at school, and to explore and express her own identity. My mother tried to control every aspect of my life from my hair cut all the way down to my shoes. She gave me no freedom to be myself at home or around other people outside of school. School was the only place I could be me.
My mother was nothing like Ruby’s. I wish she had been because I never really felt love from her right up until the day she died. I still don’t know what it’s like to be loved unconditionally by someone. It’s difficult to love yourself, much less someone else, when you never had a model or example in your life.
Did you go to vacation Bible School? I was born Catholic went to Catholic School and then; my uncle Richie introduced me to Pentecostal religion need I say anymore.... ✌🏼
@@winros Yeah! I went every year, and years I had to go to other churches VBS programs. Nothing but shear indoctrination and attempted brainwashing.
"you are also a child" YES! When i had my first baby, I had this revelation that we are all someone's baby! So take care of that baby ❤
I have no doubt this family will thrive, having such openly clear hearts and minds will wash away the turmoil. I wish them the best
Agreed
Chavie and Ruby are INCREDIBLE. I'm totally and completely blown away by both of them! I love that Chavie briefly referred to the Upstate New York controversy; I grew up almost 4 hours north of Chavie and was still very much not allowed to refer to it as "Upstate New York" lol!! Actual upstaters, like those close to Canada, will come for you if you do, as Chavie has clearly experienced. 😂
Oh they absolutely will. North Country residents will absolutely remind everyone that they are the true upstate.
Buffalo also gets indignant about NYC’s lack of geography skills.
And calling the Northern Suburbs “upstate” is as borderline criminal as telling anyone from the North Country that anyone south is “upstate”. Hudson Valley residents really don’t like being called upstate when even Albany says we are downstate.
@@LeadTrumpet1 Yes! The politics of NYS geography are heavy lol! When speaking with a fellow New Yorker, I'll change my description of where I live depending on the place they call home. The one thing that tends to unite everyone in the state outside of NYC is resentment over the fact that city residents and the rest of the world act as if the city IS the state lol!
Shelise, you are so very talented in interviewing people. It always seems like your interviewee comes out of it so uplifted, even when talking about difficult subjects and experiences. You really do embody the consciousness you so obviously value.
Thanks for highlighting these beautiful humans.
Such a well-spoken young person. You can just feel the love that Ruby and Chavie have for eachother. I think that Chavie is so incredibly profound as well when she said that the only thing that she can control is the relationship she has with her children. That's a viewpoint that I think a lot of parents would really benefit from.
And Shelise, I can tell that you really tried hard to respect and to self-correct yourself with using the correct pronouns with Ruby. It's hard to work against your own brain. Please never forget to give yourself grace when you're coming from a place of genuine care and learning
❤️🙏
Without the label "Hassidic community" the way Ruby and their siblings were treated at school would be called child abuse. Thankfully, they have a strong enlightened mother.
Thank you so much for sharing your stories with us. As a nonbinary person who was not raised with religion at all, I struggled deeply with the systems of patriarchy. I can't imagine how hard it would have been coming from a high demand religious background. You are both shining examples of humanity and the bond between mother and child. It is truly heartwarming. All the best to you!!
Chavie and one of her children! I am beyond interested to hear Ruby's POV. Will add more after!
What a terrific parent/child relationship Chavie and Ruby have. Ruby's empathy is incredible and they will be a remarkable person in the world. Chavie is a strong, bright, and resilient woman. Thank you for sharing these stories with us!
Chavi is such a lovable person, im so happy she is able to live her best life now, and give that to her children as well! She’s been through so much hardship and so happy she had a happy ending for her family
I moved to Rockland County a few years ago (originally from South Africa) and the Hasidic community has always facilitated me to no end. I’ve met a large amount of people who have left that community and their stories. I’m glad to be hearing this too! ❤
These two have to be two of the most grounded people I've ever heard. Interviewed. Like holy Toledo's! What a wonderful interview!
They light up a room! What a lovely pair. I can see the love pouring out of them for each other.
Also love the earrings Ruby ❤
Everyone allowed to speak without interruption. Learned a lot. Thank you❤
This was a wonderful interview! Chavie is such a good mother to Ruby and, presumably, to her other children as well. Ruby has a great head on her shoulders and I wish them all the best out of life.
I can't imagine any three people having a more respectful and informative discussion on this very tough subject. Excellent job!! ❤
Aww thank you so much!!🙏❤️
I love that Ruby made the jewellery they're wearing! it's so cool and beautiful
Ruby looks and sounds just like their mom. Both of them are wonderful guests. I enjoyed hearing more of their story. ❤
Ruby & Chavie, thank you for being wonderful, kind and compassionate people. It gives me hope to see how people can grow and be kind in the face of hardship and to be able to build a better world instead of blaming people, loving people and blaming the systems or at least holding them to account. It can be easy to blame people for the pain, but often they are victims too. Better systems make the world better
Another uplifting interview Shelise. Chavie you are an inspiration. Ruby never stop exploring life and all its possibilities knowing you have your mom for support and guidance. Thank you for being open and honest. I am sure you are going to inspire more and more people who feel stuck in cults to realize there is a way out and a future full of choices.
I absolutely loved this video! Seeing a young person coming into their own and seeing Chavie's face as her child spoke, all the love, pride, and joy there was beautiful! Young people like Ruby give me hope for the future. They are truly remarkable!
What a cool pair! Really heart-warming to see how Ruby and their mom interact and have so many good things to say about each other ❤❤❤
Omg, Chavie must be so incredibly proud of Ruby. Ruby's so emotionally intelligent and cool. ❤ What a beautiful family. ❤ I would love to know what Ruby wants to study in college? Oh, and congrats on your engagement, Chavie! ❤
What a precious interview! Hearing from the child of someone who stepped out of the community is very refreshing & interesting. Thank you for sharing!
What courage! I hope your children understand and appreciate the freedom you have made available to them by your remarkable integrity.
Chavie is absolutely adorable and so is Ruby. I'm so proud of them for being true to themselves and speaking out like this because it really helps people.
I am not Jewish but Greek Orthodox. The Jewish have a blessing used for when a loved one passes away, however it is a beautiful blessing, and one that I would like to give them for a different context. For Chavie and Ruby, I wish you both a long life. Because you are both brave and amazing humans, and I wish you both the very best for as long as possible. Your stories are amazing.
This interview was great! Ruby is so sweet and smart. They are going to do great in life!
I have sooo many questions: how is their relationship with their dad now; how is their relationship with their mom family ; and how the government allows these kids to not have proper education?
❤❤❤ Ruby's Linda listen statement shows so much maturity & wisdom!!!
What a fabulous relationship presented here. It was so nice to hear the continuation of the story. Thank you for sharing your family story.
I grew up in the same community as Chavie I can’t relate to her story in a lot of ways
Thanks for sharing your experience the world needs more brave people
Thank you for watching and supporting ❤️
YES YES YES!! The parent/child relationship is what’s important!! 💗💗💗 48:21 could not agree more as far as social media (or any media for that matter 😜) is concerned 💯👏👍
I’ve been binge watching your videos and it’s so hard to choose a story that has impacted me the most when every single person I’ve seen you speak to has been so incredible but omg the feelings that this video and Chavie’s previous one have given me are something else. Chavie seems like the parent all children deserve. The fact she had to continue to live in a way that had traumatised her in order to be able to see her children and to give them choices, I just cannot imagine the unbelievable strength that must have taken for all those years. She and her story are the proof that a parent’s love for their children can be strong enough to fight almost anything. And now to see what a wonderful, mature, intelligent and compassionate young adult Ruby is. 😭 you can see the pride in Chavie’s eyes through this entire video. I doubt they’ll see this but Chavie and Ruby I am so so pleased for you and in awe of you, and I am so grateful that you shared your story. It has had an impact on me and I’m sure many others. Shelise, the work you are doing is incredible. Thank you so much for giving so many amazing people the platform to share their stories, from the bottom of my heart, I am so grateful. 💜
Thank you so much for sharing that ❤️ it means a lot. I appreciate your support!
Loved how you explained boundaries & how to set them & it is ok to do that. I talked about this with my younger nieces & my older niece said no one talked about setting boundaries & specially with girls.
Very courageous of both Chavie and Ruby to share personal details of their life experiences, coming out of an orthodox chassidic sect.
I enjoyed this video. Those two are so adorable! Being in the LGBT community, I know what it's like to be in a controlling fundamentalist religious home.❤🌈
Thank you both for sharing your stories! You both seem like such kind and interesting people and you restore some of my faith in humanity. Good luck with college Ruby!
I'm literally in tears. The path Chavie created for herself, Ruby and the other kids is EVERYTHING. As a mother, Ruby is everything you want your child to be- better than yourself. Kudos to bravery paying off.
I felt like Chavie was such a bright flame in the previous show....OMG! Ruby burns the house down. Awesome personal triumphs for both! Edit fixed autocorrect, again, lol
So happy you brought Chavi back with her kid! So nice to hear from the child’s side of things and that things are getting better for them
15:39 similarly, as far as observant kids… when my oldest was around 9 or 10 (almost a decade ago now), I don’t remember specifically what we were talking about (with his younger brother who was 4 or 5), he states… I think being gay is weird… then I said, non-judgmentally… hmm, oh really, well, ever since I can remember, I’ve liked both females AND males, so I’m kinda gay… he responds… oh wow, that’s cool, it’s like your ambidextrous, but with gender!!
And of course I realize that it’s not a perfect metaphor for bisexuality, but it was still a pretty amazing response in the moment 🎉
There is not one malicious bone in Sha's entire anatomy. She is just so sweet and accepting of others. Her heart-rendered apology gave an insight of her resume.
omg love this so much! i hope we’ll get to hear more from them! respect to both of them for going through all of this and coming out the other end being more insightful and emotionally mature than most grown adults, let alone 20 year olds. their relationship is so sweet too. a lot of people, queer kids especially aren’t so lucky unfortunately
What a fantastic interview, Shelise! What amazing people Chavie and Ruby are. Wishing them both a life full of love, laughs and joy. ❤🏳️🌈
I am only a few minutes in but already loving it!!
Ruby is so incredibly wise and self-aware for such a young person, I admire them so much!! Chavie is an amazing mother & role model to aspiring moms such as myself; I hope to instill my future children with the same courage, autonomy, & convictions💖
Omg I just love how open and vulnerable Chavie is ♥️♥️♥️♥️ thank you for sharing your story also your child !!!l
There is so much to say here. Chavie is a force of nature and I'm simultaneously so sorry for all the pain and suffering she experienced while also so grateful she escaped and turned her and her children's lives around. I can't imagine the courage and strenght that would take and I am in awe.
One part I can't comprehend is how and why she was legally forced (by a judge, I assume) to pretend to still be faithful around her children. How can the law force that on anyone, that is such a violation.
Thanks to Chavie and Ruby, I hope you are living your best lives (and congratulations on your engagement, that warms my heart so much). Thank you Shelise for always plateforming wonderful guests ❤
out of all the things I was expecting to hear from shelise's podcast, one of her guests being a city-as alum was not one of them!! I can just imagine the jump from a beis yaakov to there, it must've been the biggest relief they've ever felt to just be around all those interesting people and loving, SUPPORTIVE teachers. It's a place unlike any other I have ever been, and you can just hear that love in ruby's experience. I'm not even done but I just wanted to let both chavie and ruby know that I'm so happy for them ✨
What a brave example of fortitude, grace and the overwhelming desire to escape oppression and live an authentic life!!! Thank you for sharing!
Love seeing interviews from the queer/ transgender point of view.
So incredibly mature and insightful. Beaming. Thank you so much for sharing!
I really love this episode and talking to the children and listening to their perspectives in a space that's open and safe and calming and inquiring. I've been a lesbian for over 3 decades and sometimes give the kids shyt about the LGBTQIA/binary/non-binary identifications. Ruby helped me understand this more and her explanation made me understand that we are all very similar and some, like me, still at this age trying to find myself and to better understand myself. Many times without the words. It's good the kids are finding those words and challenging the "norm." Awesome :)
Why are misogyny & patriarchy the major commonality among all religions, especially the extra orthodox ones? 💔😢
I really resonate with Ruby explaining their experience with gendered expectations and just “playing the role”. I’m also non-binary but I just felt like I was acting along the path of least resistance but also knowing on some deeper level that it was just acting.
These are such lovely people! I'm glad they are living the life that they want. And thank you so much for providing the platform for them to tell their stories. This was truly heartwarming.
Raising a kid who knows they can come to you for help when they mess up is an extraordinary achievement! I hope one day it will be ordinary 🥰
I haven't been able to stop thinking about this since I saw the first interview several times. So happy for another installment.
I LOVE the outcome that found Ruby experiencing City-As-School… the place that saved my life!!!
And, how amazing to have found The Most PROGRESSIVE School in NY (as the needed clash to the prior trauma).
Ruby is amazing! You go girl! Live your dreams.
Love them! Wonderful mother and great platform you’ve provided. Thank you!
Wow, thank you for this amazing interview! I'm a year late ha but omg the heartfelt honesty just warms my heart. Very powerful xx
I love your channel over here in the UK and wanted to say what a truly inspiring pair of women, Chavie has done a remarkable job and Ruby is her double❤. Thank you xx
Great Interview! And Kudos to Ruby for her courage. I am still a proud orthodox Jew. However, I definitely do see the downsides of some of the prohibitive structure. I chose to remain faithful and kind of see through and ignore the cult like noise that often prohibits us from finding our true inner self, yet remaining frum. But its a challenge and I'd never want to judge the other side.
If I may just add, that I knew two of Ruby's great grandfathers. One was Rabbi Weisberger of blessed memory. He was the complete opposite of "in the box". No airs about him. Never forceful about religion but thoughtful. He didn't even dress like a rabbi despite being one. He wore a straw hat with a tiny non rabbinic like beard. Mrs Weisberger, his wife followed the same path. They were both truly a humble couple.
Ruby's other great grandfather Rabbi Wolfson may he live and be well, intentionally doesn't wear the chasdic fur hat even though he is a large chasdic rabbi. He encourages openness and that everyone find the correct path to the Jewish religion within themselves. Despite being Chasidic he has told students to attend college and go to work vs becoming rabbis. I personally heard him discuss the idea that we should speak english vs yiddish. (Again against classic chasidic custom) I know this is contrary to how his sect emunas yisroel is run. But he never wanted his sect to be this cult like. Its unfortunately been hijacked to be that. As he ages it gets worse with him having less of a say. (I think it been highjacked, because he wanted it to be chasdic yet open minded which is unfortunately unacceptable in modern day times from sociology standpoint. Modern day Chasdism falsely misconstrue its teachings as a cult and close minded control freak form of orthodoxy. Its further from the truth and not what its founder the Besht intended. So to be accepted as a fellow Chasidic sub group within the broader group, followers of emuanas yisroel have misconstrued his teachings).
I say all this because I heard Chavie so eloquently speak about the importance of the knowledge of who you are ancestors were as an identity. Thus, I say remember you have a humble free thinking roots within the religion as well.
I hope those rabbis can do some good within the cult, even if they can't change the leaders' opinions or directly encourage anyone to leave the community.
Beautiful mom and daughter interaction and interview. I hope they keep inspiring others. ❤
Power to both of them, they're beyond remarkable for living their one life 💛 our one responsibility on this planet is to be kind....we're all a little broken...imagine if kindness was the difference between who someone becomes?! 💚🧡🌏💛💜
Ruby's jewelry and accessories are absolutely amazing, I'm a jewelry maker and run a small business. They are exactly the kinda of person I want to wear my jewelry 😂
Omg thank you! I made all the pieces I’m wearing so I really appreciate this comment! What kind of jewelry do you enjoy making most?
@beeweisberger7957 OMG, YOU MADE THEM YOURSELF EVEN BETTER!!!! You're so talented!! My favorite jewelry to make is definitely earrings, more specifically, chandelier earrings. Or necklaces! But I make everything from bracelets to beaded bras.
My art is my therapy, so I love to branch out in different styles!.
Since you made your own jewelry, what's your favorite to make? I'd love to know 💞✨️ sending soooo much love darling.
(Ps your advocacy for your pronouns is so inspiring from a fellow NB person! Also sorry this is such a long comment! Ahha)
@@gnomehomeneeds thank you! You’re such a sweetheart! I loveeee chandelier earrings. Also beaded bras sound epic and I’d love to see that. Right now I’m in the beading side of jewelry making and it’s so fun it feels like a puzzle you get to make from scratch. I’m trying to get into some wire and metal stuff though which hasn’t been easy but I love a challenge:) thanks for all the love💖💖💖
@beeweisberger7957 I totally agree! It's a puzzle to put together and make and then WEAR?!?! It's amazing, hahaha!
If you have any social media for your jewelry, I'd definitely love to check it out! I do a lot of social media for my small business, so I always love supporting other creators :^)
@@beeweisberger7957omg Ruby during the episode I was thinking how much you’d love the jewellery and stuff my disabled & ND friend Tash makes. Her brand is pawn in suburbia
Chavie's love and pride in Ruby shown so bright when she looked at Ruby.
So much love and acceptance. Such a wholesome interview, it filled my bucket! On a personal note, I really relate to Chavie's parenting philosophy and feel comforted that everything is going to be OK
Ruby just nailed any child's experience no matter the sect religion ya da ya da
Another great video. I loved the different perspective. I have a similar story where my father left the orthodox community and the courts made it so he could not talk about it to me or my siblings. I did not know the extent of his disbelief in the religion until I came out to him as a atheist when I was 15. Thankfully I've been able to live with him and not hide who am I seen I came out. It's so refreshing seeing similar stories to my own because they are so uncommon. Thank you for sharing this! (And thank you for posting my comment in my video, much love
Thank you for sharing this! I’m sorry you had to deal with that. And thanks for your nice comments!
@CultstoConsciousness If you ever want another perspective of leaving the community I'd love to go on your channel. I love what you're doing and how you're doing it. I find it great how interactive you are with your audience and I've been Bing watching all of your videos
Omg, they are both so beautiful ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ hope for all good things to come to both❤❤❤