Authortube: **Anger Anger** **plotting vs pantsing" **big battle war** **choose a side** **big much anger** Shaelin: Or??? You could just do whatever you want???? Hmmmm????
I absolutely cannot outline. It destroys my creative process. I've never been a planner, I've always jumped in head first and worried about the details later. Goes along with my creative process. Outlining inhibits my ability to see the story in my mind for some reason. When I'm writing, I can visualize the scenes and write them beautifully. Outlining causes confusion. I just know where I want the story to go and it flows out of me on the screen. Everyone has their process.
When I write I have to pants. If I plot, I know what's going to happen in the story, and once I know the ending my brain says: "It's done, so why would you also have to write it all down?!" I also like to surprise myself with what I think up on the moment, or I get bored with it and my creativity dies. It mystifies me how on Earth a process like that can produce a cohesive and logical story from beginning to end though, but... it works! :)
@@AdmoreMethod I have written about 5 full length novels and some shorter stories, but not with the expectation or wish to get them published. Some Science Fiction, some suspence, some a combination. The earlier books took me about 8 months to write, the later ones about a year. I write a lot in bursts, with sometimes weeks of nothing inbetween. I'm very dependent on inspiration or feeling like immerging myself in the writing totally for it to work. I have to delete a lot too. :) I've always written just for myself, feeling the NEED to write. But I'm also an extreemly private person, so the thought they MIGHT be published, with everything that would mean, frightens me more than it thrills. Maybe after I'm dead. That's soon enough for me! :D
Keyboardje I think it would be awesome to see you publish them. Especially since the key to financial success (at least on Amazon) is to release books 30 days apart. And, you have enough finished to do that. You could be sitting on a gold mine, my friend.
@@AdmoreMethod 30 days? Wow. I heard 3 months apart was okay, at least for the first few books, then you could space them out longer. Currently working on my first and I'm kinda sad I'll have to wait to publish it. I want to have 3 in the pipeline so I can release them in a quick sequence while working on my fourth.
Writing is always about life itself, so it's never just about writing. Embracing your own mess saves many lifes as a philosophy. People insist on saying "you can't" all the time... effectiveness is personal.
I plot and do pantsing. I have to rewrite my outline when the story comes to life. I will start with a few pages of ideas and plots to get me started. It'll start writing itself, and I'll get lost in the words. I allow this to happen then I gut my novel and start again. I do the same thing when I paint. I let my words and paints do what they want to.
Joshua S. There’s a (short) book called “Writing into the Dark” just about this by Dean Wesley Smith! It’s short but it has some awesome tips for pantsing.
I noticed that when I pants my novels, my writing/characters/plot goes to very unexpected places, vs when I outline, I feel more confined and my novel reads more predictable and linear. Pantsing has always been a more reliable way of writing more creatively, but I definitely outline my second draft xD You can only pants for so long
Pantsing is good, and plotting is good - but self-knowledge is KING. Also, I'm glad you mentioned genre. I usually pants literary fiction & shorts, but outline my fantasy and sci-fi. But my outline is malleable. It's an option for where the book might go, as opposed to a strict rule.
This is the way I think works the best for me too. 60k into a novel? Outline doesn't match with what you've written? Change the outline. Make it work using the beats you had in mind at the beginning, but keep what you've now written in mind when re-working it. The outline isn't set in stone, and characterization WILL affect it.
PhoebeWoodWrites I’m glad you differentiated Literary Fiction from Genre Fiction. Stephen King is most writer’s go-to excuse for not outlining, but what they fail to realize is that King writes Literary Fiction with a horror element attached. If he wrote Genre Fiction, he would most likely HAVE to outline, in order to achieve payoffs and fulfill genre expectations, etc.
@@AdmoreMethod there are just as many successful pantsers that write genre as literary fiction. You can absolutely add payoffs and fulfill genre expectations if you pants. Even if you don’t manage it in the first draft, that’s what editing is for.
Yes! You've been converted. I'm always a pantser. Almost 95% since I started writing novels. You have outlining videos before that I just don't resonate with. Pantsing for me is the best simply because you get first hand experience of what is going on with your story compared when outlining and you somehow already know what is going to happen with your novel. It's like, what's the point of still writing it if you already know? Writing is more personal than external and more experiential than logical.
@@AdmoreMethod I haven't published but I'm editing my first novel (first in series, god i feel like every new writer ever saying that...) and I would consider it "pantsed." I do look ahead in the story, but I wouldn't call it an outline. More like, as i'm writing a scene if I think of something that needs to come later i'll jot a note at the bottom of my word document, and when i get stuck or stop there it is, like a prompt. But I do have an idea of "the end" of the series, not exactly what will happen or how, but generally I know where I want it to end up. It's about 80,000 words, i would call it literary fantasy, and it probably took me 9ish months of actual writing, if i subtract a year cause i had a baby. I was very efficient before baby, now i have much less time, obviously. My goal is to be ready to publish (query, etc) it by the end of the year. So, i guess the short answer is, a while? I had always tried outlining before and literally by the time i was done with the outline i did not care at all about the idea. I think that's the main difference between people who prefer an outline or those who pants, though there are many variations in between. If outline works for you, you will be inspired by what you've outlined, if it kills your idea, try pantsing instead. Sorry that was way longer of a comment than i thought it would be, being verbose probably helps my pantsing.
Carol E I’m glad to hear you’re getting along. Series are definitely the way to go. A word of professional advice, though, for what it’s worth: both agents and publishers will give little time to a writer with only one book finished (especially if it’s with a series), because they need to see consistency. However, investing the time in a series is a lot to ask, should it not be strong enough to attract a publisher (after all, you have to sell to them before they can sell it to others). Should you decide to self-publish on Amazon (cuz, that’s where the money’s at), it’s best to release books 30 days apart (Amazon’s algorithm is just set up that way), so you’ll want to have all of them finished before you hit “publish.” I’m going on 25 years now as a professional Story Analyst and I’ve worked with some of the best writers on the planet. So, if there’s anything I can do to help, feel free to holler at me. I wish you great success!! 😃
@@AdmoreMethod Thanks. I do have about half of book 2, and a little of book 3. The idea actually started just playing with a scene that would take place in book 3, though i didn't know that when i began. What does a Story Analyst do?
Carol E I work with writers *before* they write a novel or a script, so they know they have a sellable story before they commit to writing. I also work with game companies, to help them flesh out and/or connect their storylines (because stories unfold non-linearly in most games today). And, I donate a ton of time teaching the craft of storytelling to new writers, both online and in workshops, as a way of elevating the publishing industry. It’s my way of “giving back” to a career that’s given so much to me.
I had the same thing when I started writing; complete pantsing and full with random stuff, almost like filler episodes. So when I found your channel during you hiatus, I actually stored the outline document that you have and saved it until I had a story that I wanted to start. When I started to use your outline document, I was like "Okay but I'm not completely sure about a big part yet, but I know how to start and I know where I want to go eventually" So I just started with what I got down and use it track my flow but don't care if it's different from what I outlined before. Since I'm someone who always follows her intuition it's impossible to just ignore that and sit on the same pages until it's the exact same as the outline that I only check once a month. I thought that was just me still being bad at outlining, since I don't write out my scenes in order, because I just don't have any idea how to. But it's good to hear that it's not unnatural after all.
O you're asking for pantsing hacks~! Here's one: When writing your story piece by piece, you are building it off of the character(s) decisions and motivations. So, for a general "map" use the character arc instead of the plot/story arc method. That way, you know where you are in the story in case you get stuck. After you finish the 1st draft, you can see which plot structure flavor is the closest to what you have. It won't be like pulling hair when you edit.
I've tried pantsing. It sucked for me. It didn't work. I'm trying to outline and it's actually kind of enjoyable. To me, it doesn't actually kill my creative process, but rather helps it. I find creative ways to create an outline. If I come across a problem where a part of my books can't fit my outline and make sense, I'll just edit the outline. No big deal for me. What helps is that my outlines aren't set rules, but ideas that I don't want to forget that can change if I need them to. But I write them down so I can remember them and not have as many plot holes/continuity errors in my work. Really, so far my outlining isn't a detailed step by step of what's going to happen, but rather notes about key concepts, themes, symbols, character motivation, and key events in backstory.
Gordon Barnes And, don’t forget foreshadowing and payoffs. That one technique is what catapulted Harry Potter to fame (and, why Rowling’s later works have not fared so well): she outlined Harry Potter, so she could set-up and pay-off a million little surprises. Readers LOVE that stuff. And, it doesn’t happen by accident.
I'm a pantser. My son plots. As you said, one isn't better than the other, and most importantly, writers who pants aren't better than those who plot and vice versa.
IceCold What genres do you and your son write in? The reason I ask is because most romance isn’t outlined (which is why they’re all the same), whereas other genres require it for the story to make sense.
Hi! Only recently started watching your videos, but have been writing over 15 years. I have plotted as well as discovered multiple books and now prefer a hybrid approach with a very light and mutable outline consisting of no more than 300 words or so no matter the length of the book I have in mind. I write fantasy and think to have a couple key elements known (In a nebulous way) in advance can allow one to write even plot-intensive work without inhibiting the discovery process. The most key of things to consider before starting for me is understanding of your main character going into the story. If one discovers a lot about the main character one is set up for major rewrites, which is fine but those can be time-consuming. Anyway, I enjoy your videos and your reasonable attitude to an aspect of craft many folks online seem increasingly dogmatic when discussing.
Pantsing scares me too much :S I need to know exactly what's going to happening in every chapter right until the end else I can't bring myself to put finger-to-key... Maybe I'm just not ready yet =D
Cobrak Don’t sweat this. All the best and most profitable writers outline their stories before they write. Just like the best builders follow a blueprint or the best guides follow a map or the best chefs follow a recipe. It doesn’t mean those other professionals don’t elaborate or flourish or add to their work (just as we pants what comes between the plot points), but all true professionals follow an outline of some kind.
@@AdmoreMethod some famous pantsers: Stephen King. Margaret Atwood. JRR Tolkien. George RR Martin. Please explain “all the best and most profitable writers outline their stories before they write”.
@@avasghost Not everyone you listed is a “pantser.” And, the ones who are had something that contributed to their success that had nothing to do with “pantsing.” Instead of listing a couple of old pantsers and saying, “See? Pantsing is a great path to success,” it would be better to look at the hundreds of millions of failed books (both self and traditionally published) and the billions of manuscripts rejected by agents, publishers and producers, because the stories lacked structure. Pantsing is an almost guaranteed path to failure... and, yet... we continue to promote it as if it’s some magical process, approved by the gods. Learning the craft (and, I’m talking about STORY craft, not the craft of writing) is the best thing a fiction novel writer can do for themselves and their career. But, hey... don’t take my word for it. Let’s keep doing what we’re doing. It’s obviously working. 🙄
I love that you talk about your process in how outline helped for some projects and how pantsing is working for you lately, but I ESPECIALLY love how you talk about how outlining can have its own cons as well. When you people talk about outlining it's usually "blehhh you won't have these problems when you outline bleeh" and that's it, but I like how you discuss the downsides of that process as well! I, personally, do the flashlight method? The outline-as-you-go kinda thing. I think it's a good blend between the two worlds, where I can see a little bit ahead but still have lots of time to change things if I want! I love your idea of chapter profiles and might use that soon bc I lose track of what I've said and what I haven't all the time.
12:00 It makes total sense. It happens to me often too - I create a character who's supposed to have a certain motivation, but then I realize their motivation is different (and generally it makes for a much better story)
I think I know why. My theory is that panting is actually just making an extremely detailed outline. When you create your first draft without an outline, you end up rewriting it a lot. When you write an outline, it is the exact same. An outline is just a first draft without the stuff in between. And a first draft is just an outline but more detailed. So the reason you think you do better without an outline, is because you just use such a detailed outline. You know what I'm saying?
Is it possible that you’re able to write a book without an outline (now) because you learned how to outline (then), so you simply do it intuitively now? Telling new writers to skip the (very big, very important) step you took to get where you are may do them more harm than good.
JC Admore I think that’s the inevitable trade off of writing. We all share what we have learned, and what works for us. But in reality, when taking that “advice”, we have to remember that we have to find our own flow, and what works for us. Pantsing. Outlining. I think shunning either one of them is bad.
I can't believe you put my writing process into words. I always refused to fully outline my projects because I didn't want my ideas to translate wrong on paper, but I felt pressured to outline because everywhere I looked "outlining will keep your story from sucking" slapped me on the face. So I was afraid not outlining would inevitably doom my novel. I've never finished any of my writing projects, probably because I was afraid of my vision looking bad on paper, so I saw outlining as my saving grace... but it just wasn't working. Now I come up with new scenes and my characters develop as I go. I have quotes and details written everywhere to be added when they most feel fitting. Being vague (or writing notes like I'm shitposting) I found allows me the creative liberty I need. I'm not bound by an outline I have to follow or perish, I'm free to add and create as inspiration comes to me. What I'm trying to say is, thank you for this. I'm happy to see someone whose writing I really like have a process not unlike mine and that it WORKS.
So, something really clicked for me while I was randomly listening to a lecture by Brandon Sanderson. He talked about how he sometimes just plans key events or interuptions that need to happen and then kind of pantses how the book moves from one event to the next. It is kind of a hybrid plotter/pantser method and it is really helping me get through the book I have been struggling to plot for a while :)
I have recently finished the first draft of my first novel. About 2 years ago I wrote about 16,000 words just pantsing, and I stopped and thought, “Wait a minute, what’s happening?” So, I stopped and started an outline. It wasn’t a detailed outline but the story was completed. I then was on a ‘Book in 100 days’ course and started writing regularly and made about 4500 words a week. I was writing in first person, a narrator, and experiencing the situation in their eyes, ears and smell, the pantsing began to evolve and the story changed. In my own opinion it became a better story than the outlined version. I have to add that I have been following your videos and find you refreshingly down to earth and realistic. I truly thank you for your comments and diatribes on the writing world.
JC Admore Ok, things get a little complicated: I started the 100 days to a first draft in March 2018 and finished in June. In August I had a StoryGrid Editor read it and she highlighted that I was missing 2 required scenes and 1 convention of the genre. It’s over 65,000 words and I’ve been thinking of things to add and filling the StoryGrid spreadsheet ever since. Other things in life happen too and I’ve put it on hold at the moment, but I’m going to get back to it soon. :-)
JC Admore it’s funny as it is actually a little harder. I also think it’s consequences. I worked really hard in the 100 day course as if I submitted 4500 words a week everything was fine, but miss two weeks and I would have lost $100, so that kept me going. I need to put some financial consequence on myself so I work on it more.
Philip Shepherd That’s awesome!! I’m super glad to hear that it’s at least finished (that’s no small feat). Congratulations!! Quick question: Does the Story Grid follow an outline of any kind and would it have helped to follow it beforehand? I ask because the editor found three missing elements - and, there’s no way you would’ve known they were missing had someone not shown you. My thought is... how many writers throw their stuff up on Amazon having no idea how much their stories are “missing,” because they didn’t bother to outline and catch those things before they published...?
I’m in the middle of questioning my process now. When I first started writing, I would world build a bit and then pants and those books sucked! One project I worked on, I pantsed the first draft then did a MASSIVE revision and then did a line edit and it still sucked. So I tried re-plotting it using detailed plot points within the three act structure. Every other idea I came up with since then, I tried outlining the same way… and I would always get stuck. It’s only now that I’ve realised that maybe those books that I pantsed sucked because I was young, new to writing, and had no clue how story structure worked. Now that I understand story structure and learned more about the writing craft, I’m thinking about going back to pantsing. I find discovery writing so much fun - I can’t discover my characters or plot in an outline at all. I wouldn’t say my writing is better as a pantser but I feel a lot more inspired and enjoy it a lot more so end up writing more, and then I also really enjoy doing that massive revision afterwards and approaching the next drafts with an outline after I’ve discovered my voice and characters etc. Sometimes we have to realise it’s about what we ENJOY and not what we SHOULD do. I enjoy pantsing, not outlining, and (like you said) it makes me happier as a writer if I pants, so why am I still trying to make myself plot?? Thank you for this insightful video!
i thought i was a plotter throughout my whole childhood... and then i wrote a short story under pressure, and it was actually, for the first time, was "GoOd". so now im a full-time pantser, and im proud!! ♥♥
This turned out to be an actually revelation and comfort at the same time. I find myself writing more intriguing and developed stories when pantsing. At the same time, the concept of outlining stories does benefit in keeping the plotlines together. But what's more striking about what I've learned in this video is that you can use both methods and combine them during the writing process, especially if you rely more on your intuition to write. In many ways, I find this simply helpful because it helps me to continue writing, and not get halt because of some pantsing or outlining problems.
It is funny that you upload this video right after I discovered the same thing, haha. Pantsing works better for me somehow, I tried to plot for a long time because my first stories were trash, and I was so assured that this was because I had no outlining for them. But honestly, I was eleven when I wrote those, and in the time I tried plotting I never got past the 3K words in months and I blamed it on a writersblock. Looking back, it just wasn't my way of writing. I do understand why other writers might work better with outlining, but I only get past the 10K words whenever I have no idea what's going to happen, haha.
I like an arnold palmer half-and-half between outlining and pantsing. I have an outline, but how closely I follow it varies and sometimes when I've outlined something ahead of time and then I finally get to writing that part, I hate it or I realize that its not realistic/doesn't work (e.g. I have an MC who crossing a huge snowy mountain range and I planned for her to get through it in one piece, but then I realized that she can't. So she lost a foot to severe frostbite. SAD). Now, like you, I outline as I'm also writing, just a few chapters ahead. You could say that I pants my outline.
videosearcherwhenbored The purpose of an outline is to 1) uncover plot holes and 2) know if you have enough material to finish a novel before you spend months and years writing it. As a professional Story Analyst, I can tell you, pantsed beginnings tend to be strong, the endings are “meh” and the middles are cumbersome because they wander. There’s nothing more frustrating for a reader than to wander around aimlessly in the middle of a story, wondering, “Where is the author going?”
I think I’m the same as you. Whenever I have my entire story planned, I find my scenes are incredibly short and unsatisfying but when I’m just doing whatever I want, there is so much more detail and richness to my work. The creativity flows better it seems.
I have felt stuck in the outlining process for far too long, and I feel everything you're saying. I think that's why outlining is a good skill to learn first then use at your own discretion.
That is super funny to me, because I've been watching your content since 3 years or more I think, and... this is not the first time I have a change of heart regarding the way I view writing/my views on quality, etc, and then you upload a video talking about just that. So.... yep, I too have gone back to pantsing and taking my time coming up with actual quality and meaning after two years of productivity above all and crazy high wordcounts that led me nowhere in terms of what was actually useable. I too feel like I breathe again when I write. Thanks for making this video, I think this type of journey is super important to document for young writers out there who might think process is an unchangeable pillar assigned at birth, and not the crazy mess it actually is. Loving your content more and more at each new video. Authortube needs your voice a lot.
That was interesting. I think you should totally do what works for you. Once writers have a strong sense of story structure, as you mentioned, they can work with or without an outline, depending on personal preferences. I haven't always outlined short stories myself. At school, the teacher made us, and I would literally pants my stories anyway, and make my "plots" afterwards. 😃💝
This was a very interesting video. I've recently been trying to figure out what works for me, so it's cool seeing another author's perspective. Thanks so much for making these videos!
I do think outlines are a form of procrastination - at least for me. I enjoy doing it but I think I waste time figuring out the outline and spend no time actually writing the story, then get a new idea and the outline changes. Must have done 10 outlines for the same story I'm currently working on. I have had good experiences using "pantsing" but outlines do give me a sense of direction.
I’ve pantsed, I’ve plantsed, and for the first time I’m doing a really in depth outline. I’m liking it! I feel like when I pantsed I spent so much creative energy on “what’s going to happen now?” that I didn’t get to enjoy the prose. However, I’ve also realized that it really depends on who you are and what you’re writing. To me the argument between the pantsing and planning doesn’t really make sense. Just do what works best for you! As long as you’re producing stuff and it’s working then do whatever. I’m sure I’ll have projects in the future that would work better if I pantsed them.
My first book, DOH, was written in three days as a joke. I was high on prozac and in a group home, and I skipped meals and wrote, wrote, wrote. People in Australia liked it. It is definitely flaming garbage. There was. There was. To the Tee. Don't you feel like your first novel is your baby, however? The others I didn't like went on the graveyard flashdrive in case I needed ideas.
I like that you say that outlining was good for you at the time. And it sounds very interesting that you have moved on to something more. To me it sounds like an advanced approach at pantsing. Very intriguing :) Thank you for sharing !
Same thing happened to me this year. I thought I was a pantser for short stories and a plotter for novels. But I realised my short stories were much stronger than my novels. So, three weeks ago, I started pantsing my novel. Instant improvement. But my pantsing is much different to how it used to be after trying plotting. I try to make notes as I pants about the ideas that I get, and the new ideas that I'll need to go back and change on my second draft. My direction changes completely once I start writing, and when I was trying to plot, I'd have to stop writing and re-write my outline and then re-write the first chapters over and over and I was getting nowhere.
I've been pantsing my fantasy novels for YEARS. I never thought to plot them, and I was so stubborn about not plotting... but I never finished or got far into the story. So this nanowrimo, I'm making a vague outline so I can avoid writing slumps. But I only tried plotting after resonating with your 15 beats video. So thank you for all your amazing advice!
Hiii I'm just finding your channel I've been a pantser with writing since I can remember and even with my fantasy novel I find it's best for myself to just be in it. You can plot for as long as you want but for some people, like you said, no matter how hard you plot the events and characters always transpire just a little differently. A good way to keep your story line strong is to keep a general plot line jotted down somewhere that you can work with. You can still plot with pantsing, but the process is a lot looser and gives a bit of room to toy around so for example I'll know my character is going to betray another character but I can decide when I get there how I want it to happen in a way that impacts them more based on how they've grown and other small details they went through. So long as you keep a general idea and notes on things you think are important it's not as chaotic as plotters typically think it is.
Shaelin, this is the video i needed... Your point on character and the domino effect of misalignment... makes perfect sense to me... Outlining is not a sin... but it's too extremely theoretical for my creative mind... and it's murdering my brain... TYSM Shaelin
I feel like a combination of the two are really beneficial for me, but outlining has made me feel a lot more confident about my writing. Now that I have my character outlines and some of my more significant scenes laid out, I’m just filling in all of the details and it’s so much easier for me to write every day because I know where I’m going with it. I admire how versatile you are. You’ve helped me so much with getting my book on the right track. ❤️
Yesss!! I'm a pantser and totally outline as I go. I've tried outlining the whole story in advance and I always get writer's block on the dumb outline. 😒 Also, my characters are never very clear until the end of my first draft. Great stuff, thank you!
I am a HARDCORE planner, so this has been very interesting to watch. I LOVE the way you do your outline!!!! That is so cool!! You basically do it backwards because, as I understand it, it has a totally different purpose. And I'm so happy that you're feeling better about your writing and you've found a process that works for you. Your level of not giving a shit about other's opinions continues to inspire me tbh.
I've noticed that writing has started to feel like a chore. Watching you evolve is really validating. I'm so caught up in writing a book the "right" way that I just never really get much done, but occasionally, I just gotta say "fuck it" and roll with the punches.
This was so great, Shaelin. I remember that pantsing (and though it had a little bit of plotting) was how I first fell in love with writing. I feel so insecure while I'm planning (which I'm currently doing), like I'm not ready to start. Of course, I never finished the stories I wrote when I was pantsing in elementary and middle school. I might just do a bunch of brainstorming before I write my novel and then just jump headfirst. That way, I can always make sure what I'm writing is something fun for me. Also, I really like how you added the short story part. I stopped writing short stories a while back, in favor of novels. However, I found a guy at college who's starting a short story club, so I'll be writing more of those. Thanks, Shaelin!
I'm a discovery writer, but I always have some plans. I always plan out the emotional arc and purpose of a chapter before writing it. I don't make outlines, they get in my way (whenever I tried outlining I SUFFERED), but I know the overall plot, I know the characters and their relationships with each other, I know key plot points, and I know the world. You're description of how and why discovery writing/pantsing works better for you than plotting just completely describes what outlining is like for me too. Outlining did so much harm to my drafting. A great example of my mix of discovery writing and planning is in one story where I, on a whim, write in that one character almost killed someone a year prior, which gave more reasoning for why other characters hate and fear him. I didn't know anything about the who and why, but I knew that the why would become VERY important because though the character had a temper and violent tendencies, he wasn't the sort of person that would try to staightup kill someone. Or, not without a very big reason. Me not knowing what had happened continued for many chapters, and I discovered the who through just writing, but the why still elluded me. That is, until I was listening to music and stumbled across a song that made everything snap into place, a story of unrequited love. This sent me down a path of discovery at breakneck pace! I instantly knew a whole new plotline, a whole new piece of backstory, a whole new character, and a whole new, very big scene. I was about 10-20 chapters away from actually writing the final confrontation between those once best friends, but I knew exactly how it was going to happen. It became a HUGE part of the story, and it NEVER would have happened if I'd tried planning and outlining the whole story ahead of time.
I also outline as I go, only as needed, and in as broad strokes as I can get away with, although I usually start with a general idea of the story as a whole, including the ending - that just seems to be how inspiration hits me: all at once, but in broad strokes. I let my characters take it from there to provide momentum, fill in the blanks. Getting to know and love them makes me want to write about them, so I can get to know them more - I let them tell me their stories. That's what I love most about writing, why I feel compelled to do it, even though it's a struggle. Thanks for your videos - I've learned a lot
I evolved into a semi-loose outliner. I started writing "with intent" as a 3-act, plot-first, must-outline, SF/F screenwriter. It took my screenwriting mentors a few years of noodging before I realised that, yes...it was character not plot that was most important in storytelling (i.e. great characters can more often salvage a bad plot than a great plot can overcome bad characters). That shifted my prep work to be much more character- than plot-oriented, with character informing the evolution of the plot instead of the other way 'round. Of course, during that time I'm reading a lot of stuff from professional peers and wannabes, both in scripts and prose, and learning from them. I came to dislike both pantsing, as it too often suffered from blocks of being unfocused, and outlining, as it too often was stilted and linear. Both methods worked fine with seasoned pros, but reading people as they were getting there was..... So, fast-forward a few years (or decades). I've found the number one most important story element before a writer should even consider committing a premeditated act of writing is knowing the ending. If you know where you are going, you can meander like crazy and the work often still has a cohesive feel. As for me: for a novel, I set out a handful of "signposts" I have to hit at roughly specific points for the story I want to tell to make sense. My characters have been well-prepped, but I accept that at some point they are going to do what they are going to do (that's the fun part). While I do develop scenes I think should happen during the course of stuff happening, I treat them as suggestions. Still, using that crude plotting, I set out a title for every chapter. These titles are basically the only notes I use during the first draft. Every so often (between every 8-12 chapters) I evaluate (not re-read) the story so far to either bring it back on course or to alter the course I thought it would take (erasing old chapter titles, scribbling in new ones). Then, when the draft is done, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite. So, it's kind of the best of both worlds.
It's so hard when you're coming from a screenwriting world. I come from a fiction and screenwriting background (mostly fiction but some screen), and screenwriters seem to always have a way to turn writing into math. Some people work great with that kind of rigid structure, though. Your process for writing now has lots of similarities to mine! I also am aware of certain signposts (I call them roadblocks haha) that I know I'll hit and roughly when, but not everything in between.
@@ShaelinWrites "Screenwriting math" (hee) is a hard habit to break -- as is writing in present tense, which I do inappropriately outside of the s'writing world. The structures are dizzying and, depending on the ep, d-person, or suit, annoyingly rigid. Fields, Truby, McKee, treed cats, 19 points, Dramatica, Vogler, etc., &c., et cetera. It made me a fractal Aristotelian (beginning-middle-end applied to story, arc, chapter/act, sequence, scene) just out of simplicity. Some things are classics for a reason.
I'm relatively new to the concept of pantsing, but I *think* I do a hybrid of both. I like to sort of live out my scenes as I'm writing them rather than structure them. It's just more fun. But I have learned the hard way that if I don't know ahead of time where the scene is supposed to go, that scene will write my story right out of its plot and straight into a brick wall. I never finished anything until I started outlining. I applaud and envy the pantsers who can start and finish their novels that way. For me, though, I need some structure in order to get things done and tell the story I want to tell. :)
Yes! This is almost my exact process, and I’m so happy to see another writer shares it. I can only see so far ahead in my novels, and I make a rough scene card outline a few scenes ahead so I have something to work toward, but as I write, stuff happens and changes and informs the next chapters. Then I can change the old index cards to fit what I actually ended up writing and continue with new scenes.
Almost always i make sure i know the beginning of my story and the end, then i pants in that direction. The other thing i do is if i fully pants a story, it ends up with certain scenes written in full detail and others are one sentence summaries, almost like a half outline. Then in editing i write everything out fully.
I know how handy an outline can be but as a rule, I pants my projects. My theory is, you can do better writing if you just set down like your going to tell a person (the reader) a story. As every author knows, there is a good deal of pressure to keep the person from getting bored. So there is a bit of editing involved. So I strive to just keep the story flowing.
Welcome to the pantsing world! We have buttons! *gives shaelin a button* I've tried outlining books and I just ignore them I know that really bad but more power to you!
I’ve always considered myself a plotter. Outlining, developing a story always gave me a feeling of organization and being in control of my writing. I started writing a story four years ago, roughly, and I fell into an endless pit of outlining. I kept changing ideas, character motivations, places because when you think about it, there’s a million ways to write a story. Changing one element of my plot meant many other points needed to change and so nothing would ever get done, I never so much as got close to drafting. Till now I still haven’t written the book and I began to associate writing with feelings of compulsiveness and lack of control. Now I’m attempting to write a story without an outline. I’m aware of all of the major points of the story and so I somehow feel more involved and invested in the development of it. The characters begin to speak to me in a way that simply writing about them beforehand could never accomplish. I’m still testing out this whole “pantsing” process but so far it’s changed the way I feel about writing in general, I’m starting to enjoy the process so much more.
I can't outline for shit. I can't even do character sheets. I have a general idea where I'm going, but I pants most of the way. The characters grow as I write.
See unfortunately I'm a gigantic idiot so if I don't plan out where I'm going I end up somewhere incredibly stupid, in a hole full of garbage that I can't climb back out of. I outline my novels scene-by-scene, but while I'm writing them I'll change and rearrange the outline as I go based on what feels natural to happen next. With short stories I know the beginning and the end, and I stop frequently to think about what needs to happen next for the characters to move from point A to point Z. I do have a project I'm starting to work on now that I'm sort of pantsing, but it's a whole different animal--it's a genre-bending experimental novel (have you ever read or seen the "autobiography" Dictee by Theresa Hak Kyung Cha? It won't be like that, precisely, but that's the closest book I've ever seen to what this project is) that I can't possibly plan because it's just so different from everything I've ever done before.
Very new to writing here but I have found pantsing super useful. I'm writing for an episodic animation. I found that a loose series outline is all that's needed. Once I'm settled on an idea for each episode and the characters are developed enough, it seems write itself. It's very refreshing as all of a sudden these characters respond to events like they are real and autonomous.
My first few works had been pantsed too, but once I found the online writing community, I had this idea that outlining was the way to go. I was so so so wrong. For about a year, I outlined, wrote my first chapter, threw away that outline, made a new outline, and wrote another first chapter. I couldn't find a way to move on to the next chapter even if I had it all drawn out. Finally, one day I decided that I had to start. 7 first chapters weren't going to help me accomplish my book dream. I started pantsing in mid-2018, and now I have 65,000 words in my WIP. :) It's a total mess, but rewrites & revisions (which will be done using a vague, light outline) will clean it up. I like pulling words from thin air without thinking about those words. Happy pantsing!
I actually do both. I come up with a general framework for the plot so I know where things are going with basic prompts to say what is going on and write within that changing and adding things along the way. I can't work with no guidelines at all or I get overwhelmed but also noticed some of the best things I have written have come up just by letting the characters talk. There have been several instances where I have gone "oh, that's a neat idea" or "I hadn't thought of that."
Your current process is very similar to mine; an amalgamation of discovery writing when drafting (planning in your head/kinda knowing where you're going, as you're pantsing your way through scenes) but also taking notes of cool ideas along the way and outlining as you go to keep track of things. I feel so validated by your video. 😁 Btw, Elle Brocks calls this type of writer the methological pantser. 😉
I have a very strict outlining process but when I'm writing if something comes to me I'll start pacing that section and just mold the outline to fit my story. Are you doing NaNoWriMo? This is my first time. Btw those titles are really good and creative, i would %100 read that book.
I only started outlining because of you, but I tend to do very bare bones outlining and then pants it from there, so I was worried about disappointing my UA-cam writing mom when I went back to pantsing, so I'm glad you've started doing the same
Your revelation sounds like the one I recently had. I'm pantsing for the first time in years and it is so much more FUN! I wish I'd figured it out when I was your age instead of in my late 30s.
I'm trying a minimal outline for my NaNo book this year. (Just a list of the major plot points I know I have to hit and a few rough notes about the characters and world.) I thought I was a diehard plotter until I gave up on 2 books in the first draft within about 4 months. I was so conflicted like "If I don't know where a story is going I can't write it but planning everything ahead of time kills my passion for it!" It took me longer than it should have to realize that I could plan out the ending without planning out everything. Seeing you talking about Honey Vinegar actually ended up being the deciding factor.
I can't outline to save my life. Every time I've had to submit one for a class, I've written the story/paper first and then picked the outline out of the finished product 😂
I started writing again after a hiatus. I was a pantser but I always had trouble finishing manuscripts & would struggle with writer's block. I'm trying outlining for the first & it's helped me a lot with those issues but I'm trying not to get to stuck to an outline either. BookTube has been a great help too!
I love pantsing. I might take a few minor notes when I have ideas along the way but outlines stress me out because I feel I have to get everything perfect and I look at this huge outline and it's just overwhelming. With pantsing I love how I don't even know where I'm going. It keeps it fun and interesting for me.
For me, when I plot, my story will be predictable and unexcited. Because I know what happens. When I pants and writing whatever I want, it kinda mysterious and unpredictable. And I want to know what will happen next. And what will my character react to the situation?
Like you I started off pantsing but I almost never finished anything and it all had so many plotholes so I kinda figured plotting would solve these problems. So I started doing scene-by-scene outlines, I think because it was the only type of outlining I'd really heard of, but I found it really boring and I feel like you can tell when you read those stories; they feel kinda lifeless and robotic, just like "she did this and then she did that". I also ran into the same problem as you where what I had outlined just... didn't work in the actual story, and I'd end up throwing my entire outline out like a quarter of the way through the novel, and trying to write a new one as I was writing. So I've been trying to find like a middle ground in between plotting and pantsing and I am discovering there are so, so, so many other ways to do things than either "make a scene-by-scene outline and stick to it!" or "start writing with no idea how any of this is going to turn out and hope for the best!" Anyway, I really enjoyed this video, it was very helpful! :)
Hi there!:) I'm from Hungary and I love your videos (especially because you're capable to change your methods or the way you think about things). You're an honest girl and it's very inspirating to see someone gaining more and more experiences in this craft and therefore change her process.:) My favorite video is the one in which you tell us about why you hate your novel The Dragon Tear. It was so human (and at that time I felt just the same) :D I smiled all along. It's the same here, I started as a pantser because I didn't know what's a plot. Later during the NaNoWriMo "Now what?" month I realised there's a lot more in writing than just write down words so I began to plot. But I'm not a pure plotter after all. Knowing every detail of my story took away the leasure and adventure to write it (not to mention the stress of perfectionism caused by learning the technics). So now I'm trying somewhat like you, a minimal outline for the pantsing.:)) Keep on writing and posting your experiences!!! P.s.: I stopped the video and looked into your outline. I would like to read this story, it's going to be awesome! :D Loved the lightning idea and the way people turned the accident into folklore!
My plotting got more and more detailed and I found that it just sucked the life out of the final story. I did more or less your process earlier this year and it’s so much easier to get voice and mood and suspense right.
I do a bit of a hybrid between plotting and pantsing as well. I outline as I go. Kind of like a review of what I have already written so that when I edit, I can not only remember what happened but also so that I can spot areas that need work or need to be cut or rewritten.
Yes! That's exactly what happened to me with the last novel I tried writing. I had planned the plot all out, but when I was somewhere in the middle, the actions the protagonist had to take to get from A to B no longer felt realistic for her character. I kept writing it because I wanted to be able to tell people that I had finished it, but everything felt so fake.
Agreed. I am a pantser far more than a planner. I think people who don't pants and just poo poo the idea lump everyone in the same category. Every person's mind works differently and what one person can do someone else cannot. I think there is also the misconception that pantsers don't have a clue. However, just because a person doesn't write everything out on paper, doesn't mean there is not thought behind the process. Granted some people may not have a clue- but yet again, lumping everyone into the same category doesn't work. Personally, I don't see why other people care how another author writes, if his/her process works for him/her. It's that author's time, energy etc. so she can do whatever she wants.
I HARDCORE relate to the discrepancies between characters and scenes when you plan and when you actually write. I remember I once extensively planned a whole novel, character sheets and everything, but when it actually came down to writing the story, as I wrote it I realized that the situation I was writing about didn't make sense or couldn't really happen: not with the setting and characters I had. It changed when I wrote it, _they_ changed and it was from that point on I learnt that my brain just wasn't good at planning things that work out in reality, that I have to be in it and planning as I go and being really flexible too. At least for me, I find that a lot of my observations about people and events and experiences infuse my writing better when i'm actually writing as opposed to when i'm distant and planning. More ideas are triggered when I write. It's more stimulating I think. For me at least
I love this video so much. I'd been a pantsing my stories since I began to write. I always loved the way they turned out, (though obviously they aren't so good now xD). It wasn't until I got huge writer's block that I began to dive into booktube. It was those big channels that mentioned outlining, and how good it is, and yada, yada. So I've been trying it out, (for the past few months), but. . .I haven't gotten anywhere. I couldn't write, couldn't figure out the characters I had begun to like. It was only a week ago when I found this, and, let me tell you, I've written more these past days than I have since March. I just. . .wrote. And wrote and deleted and reviewed. With outlines I feel trapped. As if I can't stray and I can't be more creative. This video is so true for me, and just lovely. So, thank you!
I'm not sure whether this qualifies as a pantsing hack, but my novel pantsing process (adult epic fantasy) is to plot the plot milestones and pants the connective scenes. I like to describe it as standing on a mountaintop, looking out over a vista of peaks rising above fog-enshrouded valleys. The peaks are the key plot points, and I can see each of those all the way to the horizon. But I traverse from plot point to plot point by pantsing my way through the fog-covered valleys. This gives me the freedom to be creative with taking scenes the way they want to go, but no matter the path I take through that hidden valley, I always know my next destination.
I was pantsing my stories/novels for about 10 years, now I only plan my characters (their conflict and their development throughout the novel) and the most important stuff that is going to happen/ has to happen so the characters develop in the way I want them to develop. I can not imagine outlining my novel because the ideas come to me as I write (even after the fourth round of editing, I have ideas about what could be different, mostly small details to the characters backstory or worldbuilding. That's why my novel was 20.000 words longer after revision, even though I also cut stuff, even a few scenes) I mostly write YA urban fantasy. After finishing book one in my duology, I know that I should have planned the magic system before introducing it. I kept things vague and intended to explain the whole thing at some point (especially the science behind it), but didn't end up doing it because I still don't know how it works^^
Same - I outline (actually writing down though), but I focus in on the chapters and pants. I come up with themes and stuff that just seem to fit in on their own as I go along. But I think I'll be writing the outline out first though, because it prevents writer's block for me - I know where I go so much more, and it really allows me to just write Also, timelines are awful to deal with. I can never seem to keep track XD (I'll have to find a solution to that lmao)
I do a mix of outlining and pantsing but I primarily pants a story. The way I do it is that I have a solid beginning and end, whatever is in the middle would be events that I would want to happen or know are going to happen but don’t know if or when respectively. I don’t like outlining because I feel to confined and also in my opinion you don’t really know how it’s gonna work until you start writing the story. Another thing I like to do is, when I’m not writing I still think about the characters in my world. It would be things like “my favorite moment was when x character did y to z character”. This way I’m never really bored or suffering from writers block.
This has caused me confusion in my writing seriously. Because I also thought I couldn't write my novel without an outline. But, I told myself to just try, sit down and start writing and I just kind of really like the feeling of discovering what will happen as I write every chapter. ALthough, I do have an idea of what I want to write. It's just a vague idea though. Anway, great video and now, I won't confuse myself about outlining or pantsing. Thanks for this video.
Thanks for your candor. You have inspired me. I decided to jump back in and do 2018 nanowrimo ... on October 31st!!!! Last time I won (in 2015) I was very outlined!
This is such a mood. I've been very much of an outliner for a while and in general still am, but with my current story it wasn't working. Partially it was a time thing because I really want to just get this story done and, like you, it can take me a really long time to outline and generate ideas that way. But I was also struggling to figure out what I needed to do with certain parts of the story from that bird's eye view so I decided to tackle things as I wrote them, and while it has been stressful to have to problem-solve and plot things as quickly as I've needed to, the quality of the writing has been quite good and I'm making more progress than I would have if I waited for things to work themselves out in an outline. In general I probably still will be more of a plotter (the biggest reason being the whole writer's block thing, as I can force myself to write, but it's much harder to force myself to be creative and come up with ideas, and thus it's much easier to make myself write if it's all planned out beforehand and all I have to do is execute what is in the outline), but I have embraced the pantsing mindset a little more than I had before.
Sometimes it's so project dependent, it's weird! Sometimes you feel like for one specific book you need to do something different, and I think that's awesome, to tackle different projects in different ways, since all books are different.
Authortube: **Anger Anger** **plotting vs pantsing" **big battle war** **choose a side** **big much anger**
Shaelin: Or??? You could just do whatever you want???? Hmmmm????
When has anyone on authortube ever gone to war over plotting/pantsing? Can you direct me to the video?
It's always happening people on Authortube are always saying you should pants your novel or no you should plot your novel. #Authorproblems
It is best for new writers to write from an outline. After learning a lot then one could try pantsing to see if that works best - it may or may not.
I can't think of an instance aside from writing where this debate would even be relevant.
Thank you 😂 seriously I feel like I have been procrastinating from outlining cause I’m avoiding writing.
When I plot, my scenes feel familiar, something we’ve all seen a thousand times. When I pants, my scenes feel new.
I absolutely cannot outline. It destroys my creative process. I've never been a planner, I've always jumped in head first and worried about the details later. Goes along with my creative process. Outlining inhibits my ability to see the story in my mind for some reason. When I'm writing, I can visualize the scenes and write them beautifully. Outlining causes confusion. I just know where I want the story to go and it flows out of me on the screen. Everyone has their process.
mesaana1112 Have you managed to publish a full-length novel pantsing, and (if so) how long did it take to go from idea to published novel?
Same!
Samee
When I write I have to pants. If I plot, I know what's going to happen in the story, and once I know the ending my brain says: "It's done, so why would you also have to write it all down?!" I also like to surprise myself with what I think up on the moment, or I get bored with it and my creativity dies.
It mystifies me how on Earth a process like that can produce a cohesive and logical story from beginning to end though, but... it works! :)
Keyboardje Have you managed to publish a full-length novel pantsing, and (if so) how long did it take to go from idea to published book?
@@AdmoreMethod
I have written about 5 full length novels and some shorter stories, but not with the expectation or wish to get them published.
Some Science Fiction, some suspence, some a combination. The earlier books took me about 8 months to write, the later ones about a year. I write a lot in bursts, with sometimes weeks of nothing inbetween. I'm very dependent on inspiration or feeling like immerging myself in the writing totally for it to work. I have to delete a lot too. :)
I've always written just for myself, feeling the NEED to write. But I'm also an extreemly private person, so the thought they MIGHT be published, with everything that would mean, frightens me more than it thrills.
Maybe after I'm dead. That's soon enough for me! :D
Keyboardje I think it would be awesome to see you publish them. Especially since the key to financial success (at least on Amazon) is to release books 30 days apart. And, you have enough finished to do that.
You could be sitting on a gold mine, my friend.
@@AdmoreMethod
Thanks, but no thanks :)
@@AdmoreMethod 30 days? Wow. I heard 3 months apart was okay, at least for the first few books, then you could space them out longer. Currently working on my first and I'm kinda sad I'll have to wait to publish it. I want to have 3 in the pipeline so I can release them in a quick sequence while working on my fourth.
Writing is always about life itself, so it's never just about writing. Embracing your own mess saves many lifes as a philosophy. People insist on saying "you can't" all the time... effectiveness is personal.
Agreed! Art is messy and sometimes it's more fun to embrace that!
I plot and do pantsing. I have to rewrite my outline when the story comes to life. I will start with a few pages of ideas and plots to get me started. It'll start writing itself, and I'll get lost in the words. I allow this to happen then I gut my novel and start again. I do the same thing when I paint. I let my words and paints do what they want to.
This is so me!
I let colors and words do their thing
But I also need to keep a rough (and dynamic) outline so I don't go off tangents
Welcome to the dark side...
I'M HERE and I'm not leaving
Not the Jedi way
Joshua S. There’s a (short) book called “Writing into the Dark” just about this by Dean Wesley Smith! It’s short but it has some awesome tips for pantsing.
@@shahinariannia3156 thanks for the sauce
Madcircle Throughell You’re welcome!! I got it on iBooks and read it in one go, definitely recommend
I noticed that when I pants my novels, my writing/characters/plot goes to very unexpected places, vs when I outline, I feel more confined and my novel reads more predictable and linear. Pantsing has always been a more reliable way of writing more creatively, but I definitely outline my second draft xD You can only pants for so long
maej ali Have you managed to publish a full-length novel pantsing, and (if so) how long did it take to go from idea to published novel?
Pantsing is good, and plotting is good - but self-knowledge is KING. Also, I'm glad you mentioned genre. I usually pants literary fiction & shorts, but outline my fantasy and sci-fi. But my outline is malleable. It's an option for where the book might go, as opposed to a strict rule.
This is the way I think works the best for me too. 60k into a novel? Outline doesn't match with what you've written? Change the outline. Make it work using the beats you had in mind at the beginning, but keep what you've now written in mind when re-working it. The outline isn't set in stone, and characterization WILL affect it.
PhoebeWoodWrites I’m glad you differentiated Literary Fiction from Genre Fiction.
Stephen King is most writer’s go-to excuse for not outlining, but what they fail to realize is that King writes Literary Fiction with a horror element attached.
If he wrote Genre Fiction, he would most likely HAVE to outline, in order to achieve payoffs and fulfill genre expectations, etc.
@@AdmoreMethod there are just as many successful pantsers that write genre as literary fiction. You can absolutely add payoffs and fulfill genre expectations if you pants. Even if you don’t manage it in the first draft, that’s what editing is for.
Yes! You've been converted.
I'm always a pantser. Almost 95% since I started writing novels. You have outlining videos before that I just don't resonate with.
Pantsing for me is the best simply because you get first hand experience of what is going on with your story compared when outlining and you somehow already know what is going to happen with your novel. It's like, what's the point of still writing it if you already know? Writing is more personal than external and more experiential than logical.
Victorianne Castle Have you managed to publish a full-length novel pantsing, and (if so) how long did it take to go from idea to published novel?
@@AdmoreMethod I haven't published but I'm editing my first novel (first in series, god i feel like every new writer ever saying that...) and I would consider it "pantsed." I do look ahead in the story, but I wouldn't call it an outline. More like, as i'm writing a scene if I think of something that needs to come later i'll jot a note at the bottom of my word document, and when i get stuck or stop there it is, like a prompt. But I do have an idea of "the end" of the series, not exactly what will happen or how, but generally I know where I want it to end up. It's about 80,000 words, i would call it literary fantasy, and it probably took me 9ish months of actual writing, if i subtract a year cause i had a baby. I was very efficient before baby, now i have much less time, obviously. My goal is to be ready to publish (query, etc) it by the end of the year. So, i guess the short answer is, a while?
I had always tried outlining before and literally by the time i was done with the outline i did not care at all about the idea. I think that's the main difference between people who prefer an outline or those who pants, though there are many variations in between. If outline works for you, you will be inspired by what you've outlined, if it kills your idea, try pantsing instead. Sorry that was way longer of a comment than i thought it would be, being verbose probably helps my pantsing.
Carol E I’m glad to hear you’re getting along. Series are definitely the way to go.
A word of professional advice, though, for what it’s worth: both agents and publishers will give little time to a writer with only one book finished (especially if it’s with a series), because they need to see consistency.
However, investing the time in a series is a lot to ask, should it not be strong enough to attract a publisher (after all, you have to sell to them before they can sell it to others).
Should you decide to self-publish on Amazon (cuz, that’s where the money’s at), it’s best to release books 30 days apart (Amazon’s algorithm is just set up that way), so you’ll want to have all of them finished before you hit “publish.”
I’m going on 25 years now as a professional Story Analyst and I’ve worked with some of the best writers on the planet. So, if there’s anything I can do to help, feel free to holler at me.
I wish you great success!! 😃
@@AdmoreMethod Thanks. I do have about half of book 2, and a little of book 3. The idea actually started just playing with a scene that would take place in book 3, though i didn't know that when i began.
What does a Story Analyst do?
Carol E I work with writers *before* they write a novel or a script, so they know they have a sellable story before they commit to writing.
I also work with game companies, to help them flesh out and/or connect their storylines (because stories unfold non-linearly in most games today).
And, I donate a ton of time teaching the craft of storytelling to new writers, both online and in workshops, as a way of elevating the publishing industry. It’s my way of “giving back” to a career that’s given so much to me.
Shaelin: I'm a slow generator of material
Also Shaelin: had written 4 books by the age of 18
I had the same thing when I started writing; complete pantsing and full with random stuff, almost like filler episodes. So when I found your channel during you hiatus, I actually stored the outline document that you have and saved it until I had a story that I wanted to start. When I started to use your outline document, I was like "Okay but I'm not completely sure about a big part yet, but I know how to start and I know where I want to go eventually" So I just started with what I got down and use it track my flow but don't care if it's different from what I outlined before. Since I'm someone who always follows her intuition it's impossible to just ignore that and sit on the same pages until it's the exact same as the outline that I only check once a month. I thought that was just me still being bad at outlining, since I don't write out my scenes in order, because I just don't have any idea how to. But it's good to hear that it's not unnatural after all.
O you're asking for pantsing hacks~! Here's one: When writing your story piece by piece, you are building it off of the character(s) decisions and motivations. So, for a general "map" use the character arc instead of the plot/story arc method. That way, you know where you are in the story in case you get stuck. After you finish the 1st draft, you can see which plot structure flavor is the closest to what you have. It won't be like pulling hair when you edit.
Thank you. This is how I do it too. I prefer the general direction
I've tried pantsing. It sucked for me. It didn't work. I'm trying to outline and it's actually kind of enjoyable. To me, it doesn't actually kill my creative process, but rather helps it. I find creative ways to create an outline. If I come across a problem where a part of my books can't fit my outline and make sense, I'll just edit the outline. No big deal for me. What helps is that my outlines aren't set rules, but ideas that I don't want to forget that can change if I need them to. But I write them down so I can remember them and not have as many plot holes/continuity errors in my work.
Really, so far my outlining isn't a detailed step by step of what's going to happen, but rather notes about key concepts, themes, symbols, character motivation, and key events in backstory.
Gordon Barnes And, don’t forget foreshadowing and payoffs. That one technique is what catapulted Harry Potter to fame (and, why Rowling’s later works have not fared so well): she outlined Harry Potter, so she could set-up and pay-off a million little surprises.
Readers LOVE that stuff.
And, it doesn’t happen by accident.
"My writing is better when I enjoy writing." That's pretty straightforward
I'm a pantser. My son plots. As you said, one isn't better than the other, and most importantly, writers who pants aren't better than those who plot and vice versa.
IceCold What genres do you and your son write in?
The reason I ask is because most romance isn’t outlined (which is why they’re all the same), whereas other genres require it for the story to make sense.
Thank you. So many people diss pansters.
Hi! Only recently started watching your videos, but have been writing over 15 years. I have plotted as well as discovered multiple books and now prefer a hybrid approach with a very light and mutable outline consisting of no more than 300 words or so no matter the length of the book I have in mind. I write fantasy and think to have a couple key elements known (In a nebulous way) in advance can allow one to write even plot-intensive work without inhibiting the discovery process. The most key of things to consider before starting for me is understanding of your main character going into the story. If one discovers a lot about the main character one is set up for major rewrites, which is fine but those can be time-consuming. Anyway, I enjoy your videos and your reasonable attitude to an aspect of craft many folks online seem increasingly dogmatic when discussing.
Pantsing scares me too much :S I need to know exactly what's going to happening in every chapter right until the end else I can't bring myself to put finger-to-key... Maybe I'm just not ready yet =D
You just do what’s best for you! Everyone is different. There’s no rule to it. If what you’re doing works, keep at it!
Cobrak Don’t sweat this. All the best and most profitable writers outline their stories before they write.
Just like the best builders follow a blueprint or the best guides follow a map or the best chefs follow a recipe.
It doesn’t mean those other professionals don’t elaborate or flourish or add to their work (just as we pants what comes between the plot points), but all true professionals follow an outline of some kind.
@@AdmoreMethod some famous pantsers: Stephen King. Margaret Atwood. JRR Tolkien. George RR Martin. Please explain “all the best and most profitable writers outline their stories before they write”.
@@avasghost Not everyone you listed is a “pantser.” And, the ones who are had something that contributed to their success that had nothing to do with “pantsing.”
Instead of listing a couple of old pantsers and saying, “See? Pantsing is a great path to success,” it would be better to look at the hundreds of millions of failed books (both self and traditionally published) and the billions of manuscripts rejected by agents, publishers and producers, because the stories lacked structure.
Pantsing is an almost guaranteed path to failure... and, yet... we continue to promote it as if it’s some magical process, approved by the gods.
Learning the craft (and, I’m talking about STORY craft, not the craft of writing) is the best thing a fiction novel writer can do for themselves and their career.
But, hey... don’t take my word for it.
Let’s keep doing what we’re doing.
It’s obviously working. 🙄
I love that you talk about your process in how outline helped for some projects and how pantsing is working for you lately, but I ESPECIALLY love how you talk about how outlining can have its own cons as well. When you people talk about outlining it's usually "blehhh you won't have these problems when you outline bleeh" and that's it, but I like how you discuss the downsides of that process as well!
I, personally, do the flashlight method? The outline-as-you-go kinda thing. I think it's a good blend between the two worlds, where I can see a little bit ahead but still have lots of time to change things if I want! I love your idea of chapter profiles and might use that soon bc I lose track of what I've said and what I haven't all the time.
I prefer to call my outline a brainstorm. It gets the mind moving but is not law. It will be outright ignored at times.
12:00 It makes total sense. It happens to me often too - I create a character who's supposed to have a certain motivation, but then I realize their motivation is different (and generally it makes for a much better story)
I’m so happy you moved on from outlining! I find that when you outline, you lose some aspects of authenticity.
I find that in my writing as well. It might not be true for everyone, but I find my writing feels more natural and organic when pantsing.
I think I know why. My theory is that panting is actually just making an extremely detailed outline. When you create your first draft without an outline, you end up rewriting it a lot. When you write an outline, it is the exact same. An outline is just a first draft without the stuff in between. And a first draft is just an outline but more detailed. So the reason you think you do better without an outline, is because you just use such a detailed outline. You know what I'm saying?
Is it possible that you’re able to write a book without an outline (now) because you learned how to outline (then), so you simply do it intuitively now?
Telling new writers to skip the (very big, very important) step you took to get where you are may do them more harm than good.
JC Admore I think that’s the inevitable trade off of writing. We all share what we have learned, and what works for us. But in reality, when taking that “advice”, we have to remember that we have to find our own flow, and what works for us. Pantsing. Outlining. I think shunning either one of them is bad.
I can't believe you put my writing process into words. I always refused to fully outline my projects because I didn't want my ideas to translate wrong on paper, but I felt pressured to outline because everywhere I looked "outlining will keep your story from sucking" slapped me on the face. So I was afraid not outlining would inevitably doom my novel. I've never finished any of my writing projects, probably because I was afraid of my vision looking bad on paper, so I saw outlining as my saving grace... but it just wasn't working. Now I come up with new scenes and my characters develop as I go. I have quotes and details written everywhere to be added when they most feel fitting. Being vague (or writing notes like I'm shitposting) I found allows me the creative liberty I need. I'm not bound by an outline I have to follow or perish, I'm free to add and create as inspiration comes to me. What I'm trying to say is, thank you for this. I'm happy to see someone whose writing I really like have a process not unlike mine and that it WORKS.
M. Pía Golfín Have you managed to publish a full-length novel pantsing, and (if so) how long did it take to go from idea to published novel?
So, something really clicked for me while I was randomly listening to a lecture by Brandon Sanderson. He talked about how he sometimes just plans key events or interuptions that need to happen and then kind of pantses how the book moves from one event to the next. It is kind of a hybrid plotter/pantser method and it is really helping me get through the book I have been struggling to plot for a while :)
Didn't even watch the whole video yet, but the notification honestly made me so happy
I have recently finished the first draft of my first novel. About 2 years ago I wrote about 16,000 words just pantsing, and I stopped and thought, “Wait a minute, what’s happening?” So, I stopped and started an outline. It wasn’t a detailed outline but the story was completed. I then was on a ‘Book in 100 days’ course and started writing regularly and made about 4500 words a week. I was writing in first person, a narrator, and experiencing the situation in their eyes, ears and smell, the pantsing began to evolve and the story changed. In my own opinion it became a better story than the outlined version.
I have to add that I have been following your videos and find you refreshingly down to earth and realistic. I truly thank you for your comments and diatribes on the writing world.
Philip Shepherd Have you managed to publish a full-length novel pantsing, and (if so) how long did it take to go from idea to published novel?
JC Admore Ok, things get a little complicated: I started the 100 days to a first draft in March 2018 and finished in June. In August I had a StoryGrid Editor read it and she highlighted that I was missing 2 required scenes and 1 convention of the genre. It’s over 65,000 words and I’ve been thinking of things to add and filling the StoryGrid spreadsheet ever since. Other things in life happen too and I’ve put it on hold at the moment, but I’m going to get back to it soon. :-)
Philip Shepherd That’s fantastic, Phil. Have you found that the work AFTER the first draft is harder than the initial writing itself?
JC Admore it’s funny as it is actually a little harder. I also think it’s consequences. I worked really hard in the 100 day course as if I submitted 4500 words a week everything was fine, but miss two weeks and I would have lost $100, so that kept me going. I need to put some financial consequence on myself so I work on it more.
Philip Shepherd That’s awesome!! I’m super glad to hear that it’s at least finished (that’s no small feat). Congratulations!!
Quick question: Does the Story Grid follow an outline of any kind and would it have helped to follow it beforehand?
I ask because the editor found three missing elements - and, there’s no way you would’ve known they were missing had someone not shown you.
My thought is... how many writers throw their stuff up on Amazon having no idea how much their stories are “missing,” because they didn’t bother to outline and catch those things before they published...?
I’m in the middle of questioning my process now. When I first started writing, I would world build a bit and then pants and those books sucked! One project I worked on, I pantsed the first draft then did a MASSIVE revision and then did a line edit and it still sucked. So I tried re-plotting it using detailed plot points within the three act structure. Every other idea I came up with since then, I tried outlining the same way… and I would always get stuck. It’s only now that I’ve realised that maybe those books that I pantsed sucked because I was young, new to writing, and had no clue how story structure worked. Now that I understand story structure and learned more about the writing craft, I’m thinking about going back to pantsing. I find discovery writing so much fun - I can’t discover my characters or plot in an outline at all. I wouldn’t say my writing is better as a pantser but I feel a lot more inspired and enjoy it a lot more so end up writing more, and then I also really enjoy doing that massive revision afterwards and approaching the next drafts with an outline after I’ve discovered my voice and characters etc. Sometimes we have to realise it’s about what we ENJOY and not what we SHOULD do. I enjoy pantsing, not outlining, and (like you said) it makes me happier as a writer if I pants, so why am I still trying to make myself plot?? Thank you for this insightful video!
i thought i was a plotter throughout my whole childhood... and then i wrote a short story under pressure, and it was actually, for the first time, was "GoOd". so now im a full-time pantser, and im proud!! ♥♥
This turned out to be an actually revelation and comfort at the same time. I find myself writing more intriguing and developed stories when pantsing. At the same time, the concept of outlining stories does benefit in keeping the plotlines together. But what's more striking about what I've learned in this video is that you can use both methods and combine them during the writing process, especially if you rely more on your intuition to write.
In many ways, I find this simply helpful because it helps me to continue writing, and not get halt because of some pantsing or outlining problems.
It is funny that you upload this video right after I discovered the same thing, haha. Pantsing works better for me somehow, I tried to plot for a long time because my first stories were trash, and I was so assured that this was because I had no outlining for them. But honestly, I was eleven when I wrote those, and in the time I tried plotting I never got past the 3K words in months and I blamed it on a writersblock. Looking back, it just wasn't my way of writing. I do understand why other writers might work better with outlining, but I only get past the 10K words whenever I have no idea what's going to happen, haha.
00:00 intro
01:02 why shaelin doesnt plot anymore
12:34 process
I like an arnold palmer half-and-half between outlining and pantsing. I have an outline, but how closely I follow it varies and sometimes when I've outlined something ahead of time and then I finally get to writing that part, I hate it or I realize that its not realistic/doesn't work (e.g. I have an MC who crossing a huge snowy mountain range and I planned for her to get through it in one piece, but then I realized that she can't. So she lost a foot to severe frostbite. SAD). Now, like you, I outline as I'm also writing, just a few chapters ahead. You could say that I pants my outline.
videosearcherwhenbored The purpose of an outline is to 1) uncover plot holes and 2) know if you have enough material to finish a novel before you spend months and years writing it.
As a professional Story Analyst, I can tell you, pantsed beginnings tend to be strong, the endings are “meh” and the middles are cumbersome because they wander.
There’s nothing more frustrating for a reader than to wander around aimlessly in the middle of a story, wondering, “Where is the author going?”
I think I’m the same as you. Whenever I have my entire story planned, I find my scenes are incredibly short and unsatisfying but when I’m just doing whatever I want, there is so much more detail and richness to my work. The creativity flows better it seems.
I have felt stuck in the outlining process for far too long, and I feel everything you're saying. I think that's why outlining is a good skill to learn first then use at your own discretion.
That is super funny to me, because I've been watching your content since 3 years or more I think, and... this is not the first time I have a change of heart regarding the way I view writing/my views on quality, etc, and then you upload a video talking about just that. So.... yep, I too have gone back to pantsing and taking my time coming up with actual quality and meaning after two years of productivity above all and crazy high wordcounts that led me nowhere in terms of what was actually useable. I too feel like I breathe again when I write. Thanks for making this video, I think this type of journey is super important to document for young writers out there who might think process is an unchangeable pillar assigned at birth, and not the crazy mess it actually is. Loving your content more and more at each new video. Authortube needs your voice a lot.
That was interesting. I think you should totally do what works for you. Once writers have a strong sense of story structure, as you mentioned, they can work with or without an outline, depending on personal preferences. I haven't always outlined short stories myself. At school, the teacher made us, and I would literally pants my stories anyway, and make my "plots" afterwards. 😃💝
This was a very interesting video. I've recently been trying to figure out what works for me, so it's cool seeing another author's perspective. Thanks so much for making these videos!
I literally stopped writing my essay for now just to watch this when I saw the notification!!! Hi Shaelin!!! :)
I relate 100% to everything you said. I’m a pantser for life. Outlines aren’t bad, I just prefer to outline second drafts and edits.
I do think outlines are a form of procrastination - at least for me. I enjoy doing it but I think I waste time figuring out the outline and spend no time actually writing the story, then get a new idea and the outline changes. Must have done 10 outlines for the same story I'm currently working on. I have had good experiences using "pantsing" but outlines do give me a sense of direction.
I’ve pantsed, I’ve plantsed, and for the first time I’m doing a really in depth outline. I’m liking it! I feel like when I pantsed I spent so much creative energy on “what’s going to happen now?” that I didn’t get to enjoy the prose. However, I’ve also realized that it really depends on who you are and what you’re writing. To me the argument between the pantsing and planning doesn’t really make sense. Just do what works best for you! As long as you’re producing stuff and it’s working then do whatever. I’m sure I’ll have projects in the future that would work better if I pantsed them.
My first book, DOH, was written in three days as a joke. I was high on prozac and in a group home, and I skipped meals and wrote, wrote, wrote. People in Australia liked it. It is definitely flaming garbage. There was. There was. To the Tee. Don't you feel like your first novel is your baby, however? The others I didn't like went on the graveyard flashdrive in case I needed ideas.
Joke or not, writing one book in three days is one hell of a feat. (especially if other people liked it despite its chaos!)
I like that you say that outlining was good for you at the time.
And it sounds very interesting that you have moved on to something more. To me it sounds like an advanced approach at pantsing.
Very intriguing :) Thank you for sharing !
Haha yes advanced pantsing, that is kind of how I see it vs. how I used to pants (aka total chaos)
Same thing happened to me this year. I thought I was a pantser for short stories and a plotter for novels. But I realised my short stories were much stronger than my novels. So, three weeks ago, I started pantsing my novel. Instant improvement. But my pantsing is much different to how it used to be after trying plotting. I try to make notes as I pants about the ideas that I get, and the new ideas that I'll need to go back and change on my second draft. My direction changes completely once I start writing, and when I was trying to plot, I'd have to stop writing and re-write my outline and then re-write the first chapters over and over and I was getting nowhere.
I've been pantsing my fantasy novels for YEARS. I never thought to plot them, and I was so stubborn about not plotting... but I never finished or got far into the story. So this nanowrimo, I'm making a vague outline so I can avoid writing slumps.
But I only tried plotting after resonating with your 15 beats video. So thank you for all your amazing advice!
Hiii I'm just finding your channel I've been a pantser with writing since I can remember and even with my fantasy novel I find it's best for myself to just be in it. You can plot for as long as you want but for some people, like you said, no matter how hard you plot the events and characters always transpire just a little differently. A good way to keep your story line strong is to keep a general plot line jotted down somewhere that you can work with. You can still plot with pantsing, but the process is a lot looser and gives a bit of room to toy around so for example I'll know my character is going to betray another character but I can decide when I get there how I want it to happen in a way that impacts them more based on how they've grown and other small details they went through. So long as you keep a general idea and notes on things you think are important it's not as chaotic as plotters typically think it is.
Shaelin, this is the video i needed... Your point on character and the domino effect of misalignment... makes perfect sense to me... Outlining is not a sin... but it's too extremely theoretical for my creative mind... and it's murdering my brain... TYSM Shaelin
I feel like a combination of the two are really beneficial for me, but outlining has made me feel a lot more confident about my writing. Now that I have my character outlines and some of my more significant scenes laid out, I’m just filling in all of the details and it’s so much easier for me to write every day because I know where I’m going with it. I admire how versatile you are. You’ve helped me so much with getting my book on the right track. ❤️
Is it Pantsing if you plot it... in your head? lol
I also became an under-writer when I started plotting. It felt very stale and lacking in interesting detail.
Yesss!! I'm a pantser and totally outline as I go. I've tried outlining the whole story in advance and I always get writer's block on the dumb outline. 😒 Also, my characters are never very clear until the end of my first draft. Great stuff, thank you!
I am a HARDCORE planner, so this has been very interesting to watch. I LOVE the way you do your outline!!!! That is so cool!! You basically do it backwards because, as I understand it, it has a totally different purpose. And I'm so happy that you're feeling better about your writing and you've found a process that works for you. Your level of not giving a shit about other's opinions continues to inspire me tbh.
I've noticed that writing has started to feel like a chore. Watching you evolve is really validating. I'm so caught up in writing a book the "right" way that I just never really get much done, but occasionally, I just gotta say "fuck it" and roll with the punches.
Every artist needs a good 'fuck it' moment in their career, I think.
This was so great, Shaelin. I remember that pantsing (and though it had a little bit of plotting) was how I first fell in love with writing. I feel so insecure while I'm planning (which I'm currently doing), like I'm not ready to start. Of course, I never finished the stories I wrote when I was pantsing in elementary and middle school. I might just do a bunch of brainstorming before I write my novel and then just jump headfirst. That way, I can always make sure what I'm writing is something fun for me.
Also, I really like how you added the short story part. I stopped writing short stories a while back, in favor of novels. However, I found a guy at college who's starting a short story club, so I'll be writing more of those.
Thanks, Shaelin!
you should definitely do a 'write with me while I pants' video!
This caught me in the feels. I can't outline. I just can't I'm a pantser and proud.
I'm a discovery writer, but I always have some plans. I always plan out the emotional arc and purpose of a chapter before writing it. I don't make outlines, they get in my way (whenever I tried outlining I SUFFERED), but I know the overall plot, I know the characters and their relationships with each other, I know key plot points, and I know the world. You're description of how and why discovery writing/pantsing works better for you than plotting just completely describes what outlining is like for me too. Outlining did so much harm to my drafting.
A great example of my mix of discovery writing and planning is in one story where I, on a whim, write in that one character almost killed someone a year prior, which gave more reasoning for why other characters hate and fear him. I didn't know anything about the who and why, but I knew that the why would become VERY important because though the character had a temper and violent tendencies, he wasn't the sort of person that would try to staightup kill someone. Or, not without a very big reason.
Me not knowing what had happened continued for many chapters, and I discovered the who through just writing, but the why still elluded me. That is, until I was listening to music and stumbled across a song that made everything snap into place, a story of unrequited love. This sent me down a path of discovery at breakneck pace! I instantly knew a whole new plotline, a whole new piece of backstory, a whole new character, and a whole new, very big scene.
I was about 10-20 chapters away from actually writing the final confrontation between those once best friends, but I knew exactly how it was going to happen. It became a HUGE part of the story, and it NEVER would have happened if I'd tried planning and outlining the whole story ahead of time.
I also outline as I go, only as needed, and in as broad strokes as I can get away with, although I usually start with a general idea of the story as a whole, including the ending - that just seems to be how inspiration hits me: all at once, but in broad strokes. I let my characters take it from there to provide momentum, fill in the blanks. Getting to know and love them makes me want to write about them, so I can get to know them more - I let them tell me their stories. That's what I love most about writing, why I feel compelled to do it, even though it's a struggle. Thanks for your videos - I've learned a lot
I evolved into a semi-loose outliner. I started writing "with intent" as a 3-act, plot-first, must-outline, SF/F screenwriter. It took my screenwriting mentors a few years of noodging before I realised that, yes...it was character not plot that was most important in storytelling (i.e. great characters can more often salvage a bad plot than a great plot can overcome bad characters). That shifted my prep work to be much more character- than plot-oriented, with character informing the evolution of the plot instead of the other way 'round. Of course, during that time I'm reading a lot of stuff from professional peers and wannabes, both in scripts and prose, and learning from them. I came to dislike both pantsing, as it too often suffered from blocks of being unfocused, and outlining, as it too often was stilted and linear. Both methods worked fine with seasoned pros, but reading people as they were getting there was.....
So, fast-forward a few years (or decades). I've found the number one most important story element before a writer should even consider committing a premeditated act of writing is knowing the ending. If you know where you are going, you can meander like crazy and the work often still has a cohesive feel. As for me: for a novel, I set out a handful of "signposts" I have to hit at roughly specific points for the story I want to tell to make sense. My characters have been well-prepped, but I accept that at some point they are going to do what they are going to do (that's the fun part). While I do develop scenes I think should happen during the course of stuff happening, I treat them as suggestions. Still, using that crude plotting, I set out a title for every chapter. These titles are basically the only notes I use during the first draft. Every so often (between every 8-12 chapters) I evaluate (not re-read) the story so far to either bring it back on course or to alter the course I thought it would take (erasing old chapter titles, scribbling in new ones). Then, when the draft is done, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite. So, it's kind of the best of both worlds.
It's so hard when you're coming from a screenwriting world. I come from a fiction and screenwriting background (mostly fiction but some screen), and screenwriters seem to always have a way to turn writing into math. Some people work great with that kind of rigid structure, though. Your process for writing now has lots of similarities to mine! I also am aware of certain signposts (I call them roadblocks haha) that I know I'll hit and roughly when, but not everything in between.
@@ShaelinWrites "Screenwriting math" (hee) is a hard habit to break -- as is writing in present tense, which I do inappropriately outside of the s'writing world. The structures are dizzying and, depending on the ep, d-person, or suit, annoyingly rigid. Fields, Truby, McKee, treed cats, 19 points, Dramatica, Vogler, etc., &c., et cetera. It made me a fractal Aristotelian (beginning-middle-end applied to story, arc, chapter/act, sequence, scene) just out of simplicity. Some things are classics for a reason.
I'm relatively new to the concept of pantsing, but I *think* I do a hybrid of both. I like to sort of live out my scenes as I'm writing them rather than structure them. It's just more fun. But I have learned the hard way that if I don't know ahead of time where the scene is supposed to go, that scene will write my story right out of its plot and straight into a brick wall. I never finished anything until I started outlining. I applaud and envy the pantsers who can start and finish their novels that way. For me, though, I need some structure in order to get things done and tell the story I want to tell. :)
Broccoli same here!
Yes! This is almost my exact process, and I’m so happy to see another writer shares it. I can only see so far ahead in my novels, and I make a rough scene card outline a few scenes ahead so I have something to work toward, but as I write, stuff happens and changes and informs the next chapters. Then I can change the old index cards to fit what I actually ended up writing and continue with new scenes.
Almost always i make sure i know the beginning of my story and the end, then i pants in that direction. The other thing i do is if i fully pants a story, it ends up with certain scenes written in full detail and others are one sentence summaries, almost like a half outline. Then in editing i write everything out fully.
There are 3 different methods of writing a novel. Plotting, Pantsing, and Tapestry.
Romance O.E.M What’s Tapestry?
I prefer the third.
Where does "screaming into the void" fit in here?
Endo "UA-cam"
Yeah what is tapestry? Is that a joke lol
I know how handy an outline can be but as a rule, I pants my projects. My theory is, you can do better writing if you just set down like your going to tell a person (the reader) a story. As every author knows, there is a good deal of pressure to keep the person from getting bored. So there is a bit of editing involved. So I strive to just keep the story flowing.
Welcome to the pantsing world! We have buttons! *gives shaelin a button* I've tried outlining books and I just ignore them I know that really bad but more power to you!
I’ve always considered myself a plotter. Outlining, developing a story always gave me a feeling of organization and being in control of my writing. I started writing a story four years ago, roughly, and I fell into an endless pit of outlining. I kept changing ideas, character motivations, places because when you think about it, there’s a million ways to write a story. Changing one element of my plot meant many other points needed to change and so nothing would ever get done, I never so much as got close to drafting. Till now I still haven’t written the book and I began to associate writing with feelings of compulsiveness and lack of control. Now I’m attempting to write a story without an outline. I’m aware of all of the major points of the story and so I somehow feel more involved and invested in the development of it. The characters begin to speak to me in a way that simply writing about them beforehand could never accomplish. I’m still testing out this whole “pantsing” process but so far it’s changed the way I feel about writing in general, I’m starting to enjoy the process so much more.
I can't outline for shit. I can't even do character sheets. I have a general idea where I'm going, but I pants most of the way. The characters grow as I write.
See unfortunately I'm a gigantic idiot so if I don't plan out where I'm going I end up somewhere incredibly stupid, in a hole full of garbage that I can't climb back out of. I outline my novels scene-by-scene, but while I'm writing them I'll change and rearrange the outline as I go based on what feels natural to happen next. With short stories I know the beginning and the end, and I stop frequently to think about what needs to happen next for the characters to move from point A to point Z. I do have a project I'm starting to work on now that I'm sort of pantsing, but it's a whole different animal--it's a genre-bending experimental novel (have you ever read or seen the "autobiography" Dictee by Theresa Hak Kyung Cha? It won't be like that, precisely, but that's the closest book I've ever seen to what this project is) that I can't possibly plan because it's just so different from everything I've ever done before.
Very new to writing here but I have found pantsing super useful. I'm writing for an episodic animation. I found that a loose series outline is all that's needed. Once I'm settled on an idea for each episode and the characters are developed enough, it seems write itself. It's very refreshing as all of a sudden these characters respond to events like they are real and autonomous.
I hear you, and I am super grateful for this video. 🙌🏼
My first few works had been pantsed too, but once I found the online writing community, I had this idea that outlining was the way to go. I was so so so wrong. For about a year, I outlined, wrote my first chapter, threw away that outline, made a new outline, and wrote another first chapter. I couldn't find a way to move on to the next chapter even if I had it all drawn out. Finally, one day I decided that I had to start. 7 first chapters weren't going to help me accomplish my book dream. I started pantsing in mid-2018, and now I have 65,000 words in my WIP. :) It's a total mess, but rewrites & revisions (which will be done using a vague, light outline) will clean it up. I like pulling words from thin air without thinking about those words. Happy pantsing!
This is a BIG topic for me! Thanks, Shaelin!
I actually do both. I come up with a general framework for the plot so I know where things are going with basic prompts to say what is going on and write within that changing and adding things along the way. I can't work with no guidelines at all or I get overwhelmed but also noticed some of the best things I have written have come up just by letting the characters talk. There have been several instances where I have gone "oh, that's a neat idea" or "I hadn't thought of that."
Your current process is very similar to mine; an amalgamation of discovery writing when drafting (planning in your head/kinda knowing where you're going, as you're pantsing your way through scenes) but also taking notes of cool ideas along the way and outlining as you go to keep track of things. I feel so validated by your video. 😁
Btw, Elle Brocks calls this type of writer the methological pantser. 😉
I have a very strict outlining process but when I'm writing if something comes to me I'll start pacing that section and just mold the outline to fit my story. Are you doing NaNoWriMo? This is my first time. Btw those titles are really good and creative, i would %100 read that book.
I only started outlining because of you, but I tend to do very bare bones outlining and then pants it from there, so I was worried about disappointing my UA-cam writing mom when I went back to pantsing, so I'm glad you've started doing the same
Your revelation sounds like the one I recently had. I'm pantsing for the first time in years and it is so much more FUN! I wish I'd figured it out when I was your age instead of in my late 30s.
RIGHT. So much fun! I am having the most fun writing a novel I've had in years.
I'm trying a minimal outline for my NaNo book this year. (Just a list of the major plot points I know I have to hit and a few rough notes about the characters and world.) I thought I was a diehard plotter until I gave up on 2 books in the first draft within about 4 months. I was so conflicted like "If I don't know where a story is going I can't write it but planning everything ahead of time kills my passion for it!" It took me longer than it should have to realize that I could plan out the ending without planning out everything. Seeing you talking about Honey Vinegar actually ended up being the deciding factor.
I can't outline to save my life. Every time I've had to submit one for a class, I've written the story/paper first and then picked the outline out of the finished product 😂
I started writing again after a hiatus. I was a pantser but I always had trouble finishing manuscripts & would struggle with writer's block.
I'm trying outlining for the first & it's helped me a lot with those issues but I'm trying not to get to stuck to an outline either. BookTube has been a great help too!
Outlining can be really helpful if you struggle with writer's block, that was a huge benefit for me!
I love pantsing. I might take a few minor notes when I have ideas along the way but outlines stress me out because I feel I have to get everything perfect and I look at this huge outline and it's just overwhelming. With pantsing I love how I don't even know where I'm going. It keeps it fun and interesting for me.
For me,
when I plot, my story will be predictable and unexcited. Because I know what happens.
When I pants and writing whatever I want, it kinda mysterious and unpredictable. And I want to know what will happen next. And what will my character react to the situation?
Like you I started off pantsing but I almost never finished anything and it all had so many plotholes so I kinda figured plotting would solve these problems. So I started doing scene-by-scene outlines, I think because it was the only type of outlining I'd really heard of, but I found it really boring and I feel like you can tell when you read those stories; they feel kinda lifeless and robotic, just like "she did this and then she did that". I also ran into the same problem as you where what I had outlined just... didn't work in the actual story, and I'd end up throwing my entire outline out like a quarter of the way through the novel, and trying to write a new one as I was writing. So I've been trying to find like a middle ground in between plotting and pantsing and I am discovering there are so, so, so many other ways to do things than either "make a scene-by-scene outline and stick to it!" or "start writing with no idea how any of this is going to turn out and hope for the best!" Anyway, I really enjoyed this video, it was very helpful! :)
Hi there!:) I'm from Hungary and I love your videos (especially because you're capable to change your methods or the way you think about things). You're an honest girl and it's very inspirating to see someone gaining more and more experiences in this craft and therefore change her process.:) My favorite video is the one in which you tell us about why you hate your novel The Dragon Tear. It was so human (and at that time I felt just the same) :D I smiled all along.
It's the same here, I started as a pantser because I didn't know what's a plot. Later during the NaNoWriMo "Now what?" month I realised there's a lot more in writing than just write down words so I began to plot. But I'm not a pure plotter after all. Knowing every detail of my story took away the leasure and adventure to write it (not to mention the stress of perfectionism caused by learning the technics). So now I'm trying somewhat like you, a minimal outline for the pantsing.:)) Keep on writing and posting your experiences!!!
P.s.: I stopped the video and looked into your outline. I would like to read this story, it's going to be awesome! :D Loved the lightning idea and the way people turned the accident into folklore!
My plotting got more and more detailed and I found that it just sucked the life out of the final story. I did more or less your process earlier this year and it’s so much easier to get voice and mood and suspense right.
I do a bit of a hybrid between plotting and pantsing as well. I outline as I go. Kind of like a review of what I have already written so that when I edit, I can not only remember what happened but also so that I can spot areas that need work or need to be cut or rewritten.
Yes! That's exactly what happened to me with the last novel I tried writing. I had planned the plot all out, but when I was somewhere in the middle, the actions the protagonist had to take to get from A to B no longer felt realistic for her character. I kept writing it because I wanted to be able to tell people that I had finished it, but everything felt so fake.
Agreed. I am a pantser far more than a planner. I think people who don't pants and just poo poo the idea lump everyone in the same category. Every person's mind works differently and what one person can do someone else cannot. I think there is also the misconception that pantsers don't have a clue. However, just because a person doesn't write everything out on paper, doesn't mean there is not thought behind the process. Granted some people may not have a clue- but yet again, lumping everyone into the same category doesn't work.
Personally, I don't see why other people care how another author writes, if his/her process works for him/her. It's that author's time, energy etc. so she can do whatever she wants.
I HARDCORE relate to the discrepancies between characters and scenes when you plan and when you actually write.
I remember I once extensively planned a whole novel, character sheets and everything, but when it actually came down to writing the story, as I wrote it I realized that the situation I was writing about didn't make sense or couldn't really happen: not with the setting and characters I had. It changed when I wrote it, _they_ changed and it was from that point on I learnt that my brain just wasn't good at planning things that work out in reality, that I have to be in it and planning as I go and being really flexible too. At least for me, I find that a lot of my observations about people and events and experiences infuse my writing better when i'm actually writing as opposed to when i'm distant and planning. More ideas are triggered when I write. It's more stimulating I think. For me at least
whoa! You're notes/outlines are way more organized than my own haha.
I love this video so much.
I'd been a pantsing my stories since I began to write. I always loved the way they turned out, (though obviously they aren't so good now xD). It wasn't until I got huge writer's block that I began to dive into booktube. It was those big channels that mentioned outlining, and how good it is, and yada, yada. So I've been trying it out, (for the past few months), but. . .I haven't gotten anywhere. I couldn't write, couldn't figure out the characters I had begun to like.
It was only a week ago when I found this, and, let me tell you, I've written more these past days than I have since March. I just. . .wrote. And wrote and deleted and reviewed. With outlines I feel trapped. As if I can't stray and I can't be more creative.
This video is so true for me, and just lovely. So, thank you!
I'm not sure whether this qualifies as a pantsing hack, but my novel pantsing process (adult epic fantasy) is to plot the plot milestones and pants the connective scenes. I like to describe it as standing on a mountaintop, looking out over a vista of peaks rising above fog-enshrouded valleys. The peaks are the key plot points, and I can see each of those all the way to the horizon. But I traverse from plot point to plot point by pantsing my way through the fog-covered valleys. This gives me the freedom to be creative with taking scenes the way they want to go, but no matter the path I take through that hidden valley, I always know my next destination.
I was pantsing my stories/novels for about 10 years, now I only plan my characters (their conflict and their development throughout the novel) and the most important stuff that is going to happen/ has to happen so the characters develop in the way I want them to develop. I can not imagine outlining my novel because the ideas come to me as I write (even after the fourth round of editing, I have ideas about what could be different, mostly small details to the characters backstory or worldbuilding. That's why my novel was 20.000 words longer after revision, even though I also cut stuff, even a few scenes)
I mostly write YA urban fantasy.
After finishing book one in my duology, I know that I should have planned the magic system before introducing it. I kept things vague and intended to explain the whole thing at some point (especially the science behind it), but didn't end up doing it because I still don't know how it works^^
I pants first and just do what feels right. I can always go back and clean up later with an outline.
Same - I outline (actually writing down though), but I focus in on the chapters and pants. I come up with themes and stuff that just seem to fit in on their own as I go along. But I think I'll be writing the outline out first though, because it prevents writer's block for me - I know where I go so much more, and it really allows me to just write
Also, timelines are awful to deal with. I can never seem to keep track XD (I'll have to find a solution to that lmao)
I do a mix of outlining and pantsing but I primarily pants a story. The way I do it is that I have a solid beginning and end, whatever is in the middle would be events that I would want to happen or know are going to happen but don’t know if or when respectively.
I don’t like outlining because I feel to confined and also in my opinion you don’t really know how it’s gonna work until you start writing the story.
Another thing I like to do is, when I’m not writing I still think about the characters in my world. It would be things like “my favorite moment was when x character did y to z character”. This way I’m never really bored or suffering from writers block.
This has caused me confusion in my writing seriously. Because I also thought I couldn't write my novel without an outline. But, I told myself to just try, sit down and start writing and I just kind of really like the feeling of discovering what will happen as I write every chapter. ALthough, I do have an idea of what I want to write. It's just a vague idea though. Anway, great video and now, I won't confuse myself about outlining or pantsing. Thanks for this video.
I'm so glad I've found your channel
Thanks for your candor. You have inspired me. I decided to jump back in and do 2018 nanowrimo ... on October 31st!!!! Last time I won (in 2015) I was very outlined!
This is such a mood. I've been very much of an outliner for a while and in general still am, but with my current story it wasn't working. Partially it was a time thing because I really want to just get this story done and, like you, it can take me a really long time to outline and generate ideas that way. But I was also struggling to figure out what I needed to do with certain parts of the story from that bird's eye view so I decided to tackle things as I wrote them, and while it has been stressful to have to problem-solve and plot things as quickly as I've needed to, the quality of the writing has been quite good and I'm making more progress than I would have if I waited for things to work themselves out in an outline.
In general I probably still will be more of a plotter (the biggest reason being the whole writer's block thing, as I can force myself to write, but it's much harder to force myself to be creative and come up with ideas, and thus it's much easier to make myself write if it's all planned out beforehand and all I have to do is execute what is in the outline), but I have embraced the pantsing mindset a little more than I had before.
Sometimes it's so project dependent, it's weird! Sometimes you feel like for one specific book you need to do something different, and I think that's awesome, to tackle different projects in different ways, since all books are different.