It's interesting how Doc is equal or better than Mario in most things but he's bad because the three things Mario does better are the most important things to be better at.
@theangrynerd101 iirc, pauline guidance easter egg thing sorta confirms why doc hits harder. it's because he knows where to hit, which implies doc understand the anatomy of every species in smash, including pokemon and whatever ganon are.
Doc is better the worse you are at the game. I can't string together more than 2-3 hit combos in a real match to save my life so those big meaty hits from doc do me wonders.
Yeah, I see what you mean. I have always had a bad combo execution with literally every characters, but Doc is very single-hit based along with a good frame data, making it easier to get in for me
I dont know how you and the 50people liking came to that conclusion but if you want to win while beeing bad at the game you shouldnt pick an "extremely high risk mid to high reward" character you should pick an "extremely low risk high reward" character... like min min and samus
@@Pkey995 Assuming they're playing against players of at least similar skill, they have a point. In low skill environments, powerful kill moves are the strongest because they aren't punished as often, and things like frame trapping, combos and timing dodges or parries are very uncommon. Frame data hardly matters at all when players can barely time their moves properly
@@dantebenedetti8095 hmm I mean I could see why sheik for example would be a bad character in a low skill environment due to the lack of kill power. But I would still disagree with doc due to many factors like recovering range and speed. Mario got more than enough kill power and you dont need to do insane combos for Mario to get your kills. But yeah when I think about low lvl players spaming for example docs tornado and never beeing punished I could understand if they think doc is better than mario.
Fun Fact: all of Doc’s moves and movement properties have a stupid amount of decimal places (ledge getup does something like 7.87 damage). This is because the smash 4 devs made the basis for doc by taking Mario and applying +22 attack and -65 speed equipment (you guys remember equipment?)
Kazuya is slower, but has a better recovery, so he's arguably the 2nd best character in the game. It might just be that Dr. Mario just needs a better recovery with I-frames or something.
@@skyguy1236 Sure, but there aren't any DLC power creep characters with BAD recoveries, right? Kazuya has a massive midair jump and both side and up specials to choose from. Doc has... Nowhere near that much flexibility.
It's not really because he's slower honestly. It's definitely a con. but is offset by him being designed as more of a defensive character that forces approaches with pills and punishes approaches with heavy damaging combos. What really does him in is his awful recovery. For some reason they thought making him slower wasn't enough. so they decided to neuter any height his down b and up b get.
As someone who has a “sick Dr.Mario” the thing about him is that when you get in a start comboining your opponent he feels like better mario but when you start getting comboed he feel worse than Mac out of the bottom three characters he’s the best by leagues and bounds
You all think dr mario is bad, let me list you plenty of things that make him standout -Super armor down b (grounded) -His down b has crazy kill power, which leads to to easy kills whether edge guarding or not, it's also a multi hit so it drags your opponent in -His up b has a strong hitbox (frame 1?) -No spike fair but a STRONG one - *Down air* - His pills are way more bouncy, which easily pressures opponents, and try and make them less aggressive -The goated back trow -his down b makes up for good stalling and recovery potential, cuz this lets you stall more in the air, and it lets plan a bit more what you are gonna do, sadly it doesn't really let you get more height -his side b has trip chance, *You know what that means* And that's all i have to say as a dr mario main
Doctor Mario becomes a better character on stage if you utilize more spot dodges and cape. People usually can’t react to the turn around and doc can usually get a kill off of one single cape at mid or high percents which I find crazy.
I've been maining Doc lately and he is so much fun to play. All of his aerials are insanely good and punchy and his yeet back-throw is unstoppable. Winning with him gets you a lot of street cred too.
@Leaf Finite it does around twice as much damage though for the most part in terms of benefits and can lead to things like grab and even a stock at lower percents with enough rage near the ledge. Mario has slightly better combo game but can struggle a bit more taking stocks unless he can cheese (which Doc can also do, but Doc does have benefits from also pretty much getting to play Sm4sh in terms of oos and grab game, and gets generally better reward off of raw hits whereas Mario needs specific percents to get great mileage) Pills can also frame trap and can set up for a ton which is pretty nice
Additionally, most of his moves hit so hard that there's no chance of follow-up. His poor mobility just compounds this into meaning he basically has no advantage state. He just lands a hit, resets neutral, and fishes for kills when percent is high. I do like playing Doc - more than Mario, even. It just leaves him feeling exceptionally honest, and massively reliant on fundies and reads. If he had just a bit more of a combo game, and a less pathetic Up-b distance, I think he'd be mid-tier. I don't mind his mobility so much, as I'm primarily an Incineroar main.. but the knockback on just about every move in his arsenal means few true follow-ups, and his recovery is such dog water, that he's rewarded less for winning neutral and punished harder for losing it than the majority of the cast.
You also described a lot of what makes Ganondorf incredibly bad that most people don't consider. His individual attacks hit really hard, but since he has little to no combo game, "combo" characters actually have a higher damage output on average, and those with consistent kill confirms end up being a greater threat, but because big man hit hard dumb dumbs get scared and refuse to acknowledge that a bad character needs buffs.
@@toddscanlan2574 Oh that's a completely different soapbox I get on that you've done a great job of covering. I love Ganondorf and he's a character I continue to pull out from time to time, but he's just starving for tools. He's only as scary as you are scared of him. If you treat him with no respect, you realize very quickly that he's pretty dependent on you being scared of him.
@@squidinc4376 Yes, exactly. But if your opponent isn't scared at that point you just better hope that you're a better player, or at least your opponent has bad habits that you can exploit. If there is one thing that Ganon is good at it's hard punishing.
They gutted his mobility. Mario has good mobility with a high jump and great airspeed along with many good combo tools to compliment it. Doc has some of the slowest physics & his moveset (mainly Up-Air) didn't fully compliment it. His shorter traveling Up-B is just the cherry ontop.
Some other things people forget about doc are that his back air actually lingers longer than regular Mario’s making it better edge guarding and combing. His up smash also lasts longer so the front hit box actually hits people in front of him unlike regular Mario’s. Also his dash attack sends people up making it way better for combos than regular Mario. He’s got some really good stuff honestly
love this video! it feels like comparing the two is silly bc their differences are so obvious, but this detailed breakdown is still really interesting and informational
It's really just because he can't be a better character than Mario because its MARIO, but he also can't be the same, so all that's left is to be a worse character. That being said it's still outrageous that he's that much worse than his counterpart.
Funny enough in melee Dr. Mario was beloved because of how he can round better than the normal Mario and people only know Dr. Mario in smash is because of his competitive legacy in Melee.
@@StateOfTheMind11225only because they forgot to actually make him slower than regular Mario, meaning he literally was just a superior Mario in every way in that game
However, Mario is a more viable character but, dr Mario is much more hype character to watch once you get really good with him, I personally don't think he's a bad character if you ignore his terrible recovery plus, for a "slow character" some of his attacks are actually kinda fast
@@bold3166 I don’t play Mario. I main pikachu/lucina. Pika for rush downs/zoners. Lucina for consistent swordie to deal with everything else. Doc is just bad.
I think Mario is more hype to watch tbh, especially with people like Kurama. The problem with Doc is that I mostly see him pill camping until his opponent is in the corner
While I think it's cool to have Dr. Mario to be the stronger but slower version of Mario, I think the devs have pushed this idea too far and Dr. Mario is held back by being solely defined by this trope, and as a result he feels incomplete and awkward to play. For the next game they should round out his strengths and weaknesses, and make his moveset a bit more cohesive. Imo an air speed buff and giving him a real aerial combo starter would be great. Giving him a faster and bigger dash attack like Meta Knight's would also help.
If Doc is so bad? Why everytime that i encounter a regular Mario in Elite Smash i think: Ok, i just have to care about his grab combos. And when i encounter a DOC, i know that he'll crush me, dunking my characters more than PRIME Shaq'. Dr.Mario players are very scary.
Doc online is disgusting if he touches you. Less neutral interactions to get the job done compared to mario in my experience facing him. Hits like a truck
The thing is lil Mac can travel more distance in the air because he has the same air speed as Mario, sure his up is worse but he has side b and better air mobility so he can make it back from further, I don’t think docs is necessarily worse than macs it just depends on the matchup
Dr. Mario is just diet Mario but with all of Mario's weaknesses + his own. Oddly enough, I still prefer the doc. I guess I've always just been drawn towards characters that are considered low tier. They tend to be way more fun and rewarding to win with.
Doc being so much worse than Mario in Smash 4 and Ultimate is because the devs adjusted Dr. Mario's stats using custom equipment. Dr. Mario's stats are coded as the same as Mario's, but are given multipliers in game. Generally, Dr. Mario is Mario with +15 Attack and -50 Speed.
Dr. Mario basically has 2 things going for him: Pills and better kill power. Otherwise, Mario is better at everything else. More speed, get string combos together and have them last much longer, better down special, better recovery and jump height, etc. Both characters are fairly easy to use, with Doc being better for bad players and beginners while Mario is better for mid/high level players and people who know the basics and fundamentals of the game. At least Doc had his time to shine in Melee.
It sucks that with other clone characters (Marth/Lucina, Simon/Richter, Roy/Chrom) their physics weren’t changed much if at all If doc had the same physics as Mario, he’d be so much better, no recovery changes necessary
I think the fact the clones characters have the same stats sucks for those clones. Would’ve been much more interesting if all of them had different stats to differentiate them further from their original. Though I guess that would’ve not made them clones anymore.
Mario/Dr. Mario is better executed than Simon/Richter, because at least there’s actual gameplay differences, what was the point of making Simon and Richter separate characters if they wouldn’t even be given the Pit/Dark Pit treatment?
Dr. Mario has good moves but his garbage mobility and speed means that he's beaten to the punch every time. Add an awful recovery to that and his disadvantage sucks, makes for a perfect bottom 5 character. To an extent, he can compensate for his lack of range and speed with his frame data and if he's shielding a lot it can be annoying. That's why I don't think he's the worst. But you never have to play his game, so it's just delaying the inevitable lol
Mario runs after gyal, steals coins and items wherever he goes, he intentionally lets peach get kidnapped just to go “save her”, manipulation tactics, abuses his brother, I could go on and on. Dr Mario just studied, got his doctorate, and gives pills to mfs. He’s the honourable one
Dr Mario isn’t a character. He’s a message. From the developers. Showing us how powerful they are with their game and how powerless we truly are, how we are in the end we truly are playing THEIR game. Playing by THEIR rules. Our likes and dislikes mean nothing to them
Dr. Mario will forever be more fun than Mario due to the fact that instead of relying on combo strings that every other Mario player does, you have to have true game sense and reading abilities to pull shit off, and when you do it feels amazing.
One cool thing with doc's tornado is that it doesn't cancel if you reach the ground. So it can't miss the last hit if you do it too low like mario's. You can even do it fully grounded and it's really useful is some matchups.
I understand what they were going for, with Dr. Mario being the slower but stronger variant of Mario, but it makes no sense. Just give him the same mobility as Mario, he's the same person. It would help him out massively, and he'd still be different because his moves come out slower, send at different angles, and hit harder.
Dr. Mario is the heavy weight version of Mario. Slow but strong but none of the weight and still has the moveset that is suppose to combo when most hits knock the opponent out of the combo.
Recovery and ladder combos are the only reason. Doctor Mario's normals, throws, specials and smash attacks are *amazing*. He has one of the most cursed up smashes in the entire game. That angle is so dirty. Kill confirms from down tilt, down throw, pill, up air (Although getting a kill combo from up air is really hard). Tornado can also kill at sub 50 off the side in distance for him to still make it back. Fastest OOS Up B in the game as well, and it kills!
I think the different coloured pills should have different elemental properties assigned to them: blue freezes, yellow electrocutes and red burns. The next coloured pill to be thrown could be displayed next to Doc's icon so the player and opponent can strategise around it.
Absolutely not. This is a copycat of sora. Doc's pill is special BECAUSE it pops you up and stuns, allowing for a follow up. Making his pills elemental takes away from this particular uniqueness
Some thing people dont mention often is there is a slightly built in auto turn around when you are using up B near ledge and your opponent has crossed you up. Say youre on FD, trying to recover from low magnet hands style, but your opponent is standing on tip of ledge, youre facing left to magnet, your opponent is slightly above and to the right of you, so it will often make you up b to the right, outward, which does not snap ledge, so you either overshoot or need to drift back, but doc has no drift. this happens for all characters with diagonal up b recoveries, shoto, marth and lucina, marios, captain falcon and ganon. Its very deadly and noticeable when the character has a bad recovery and drift. doc def needs a longer cape that can stall, back in melee i used to land cape turnarounds on fox and falcos all day, and now the timing has to be so precise. same with using it on say chrom or ike, you miss time it and youre dead at 0, because you have to be so close that it scoops you in while cape moves your body forward a bit. i tried in training mode and it was a 80-90% success rate but in practice you just lose too many early stocks to risk it.
If doc had a good recovery he'd be what pika is to pichu as doc would be to Mario. Doc has shaving out of shield. Frame data. Kill confirms. Cyclone armor. Cape. And pill is funky to go against sometimes. He just needs a better recovery.
A character with better kill confirms is typically going to have some major flaws that balances them out. Sometimes they’re slower, have bad frame data, horrible air combat/mobility, etc. However I think strategy is what makes the difference at the end of the day. One character can have more advantages than the other but it doesn’t mean that character is going to win the match just because. The player has to have the knowledge and skills to win and not play to the advantages of the opponent. That’s what I always notice at least when I play in a bad match up. It always feels like I have to work extra hard not to give into my normal strategy and find another solution that doesn’t allow my opponent to utilize their characters natural born abilities
Docs biggest issue imo is punish game. His fair is theoretically more useful than mario since it can kill from more parts of stage, but doc is never comboing into fair. Mario does constantly. If doc could actually get mario level combos hed be good. Regardless of recovery
I think Mario's punish game is just better, because even though doc has more confirms and set ups, bacon and the competitive players have to get reads and win 4-5 neutral interactions before killing. With Mario you win 2-3 and you can just combo them off the top of get a F-air spike, and even if it doesn't kill, congrats your opponent is at 90-100%
Dr Mario's old and tired and doesn't adventure anymore. He goes to the gym every so often and lifts weights for a while but he's not as limber as he was in his youthful adventuring days. He's slow and strong but his body's starting to hurt, so he doesn't have the patience for fancy tricks and gadgets like FLUDD. That's my interpretation of Smash Doc Mario anyway.
If doc at the VERY least had a range increase on his attacks, it’d make his downgrades that more bearable. Making him so much slower, giving him a much worse recovery, and way less combo potential and the only payoff is better kill power just isn’t worth it
I think people need to stop letting mario go to PS2. He is not ok on that stage, the extra platform height compared to SBF makes all the difference for living or dying
I do agree, but the problem is that Mario is still really good on other platform stages. Depending on the stagelist and match up PS2 is the lesser of evils
give him down b recovery back after he's hit and make up b go just a bit further. He recovers real bad, Up b also gets slightly nerfed cause its more punishable, but I think that's defo worth it
Winning with dr Mario we all love and respect you you’ve stuck around the community since melee winning with Mario you’ve been broke since brawl no one will be hyped if you win honestly Mario is a lot less toxic then Wii Us version cuz the enhanced air dodging n speed of ultimate but he has some of the easiest bread n butter combos n spikes in the game I don’t hate him I just think of all the Mario mascots which r debatablely some of the most unique n fun characters in the series why main just Mario theirs no heart no soul
I find it really interesting how what are basically just number differences can change a character’s viability so much (Ik they have some different attacks but it’s barley any)
It's cause of slow movement one of if not the worst recovery in the game and stubby range. If he double jumps wrong in neutral that could lead him to lose a stock and because his air drift and ground speed is so bad it's easy to juggle him and just run away from him. The only thing he has going for him is damage and some combo potential but what good are those things if you can never hit your opponent. The only reason a dr mario player beats anyone is just due to match up inexperience and the other player being better
Reflector, early kill confirms, consistent 30%+ combos, frame 3 up-B that kills OOS, insane aerial frame data, combos+kill confirms off of projectiles, one of the best back-airs in the game and a great wave bounce for extra sauce on top. He has the second worst recovery in the game but I believe doc has sufficient tools to win a major.
@@spoonmugen5599 his recovery is his biggest weakness definitely. Although i think his pills, especially b-reversing them in the air, completely carry his neutral against alot of faster characters that tend to exploit his movement speed. He can also play quite a nasty keep-out game with his back-air and pill spamming.
@@brick3827 I know. I main Doc. Still, in exchane for reducing Tornado/Fair's killpower, I'd gladly take mobility buffs, especially in airspeed and acceleration.
so basically good across all smash games = speed (air or ground or both) if you can reach the target faster you can keep up the combo pressure. High knockback characters with poor recovery never make it in this games, ever.
Maybe unpopular, but I've always liked Doc way more than Mario, especially in Ultimate. Yes, he has less mobility, but I can't play Mario even close to the level that my Doc is. I started getting good with Doc in Smash 4 because of Luigi and his cyclone similarities. Also, many people are quick to say, "Tornado is bad as recovery option." That's not always the case." It can be used to stall and assist in a low recovery off stage. It can also be used to punish characters who can recover high. For example, Snake likes to cipher-up high and I can't count how many times I've punished that since no one expects Doc to reach up high. Plus, pills are better for stage control. I find them much easier to sneak in on an opponent than fireballs. Lastly, up-B out-of-shield is so satisfying. The threat of it at high percents makes people play more cautiously, which Doc can capitalize on. Ultimately, I still think Mario's mobility outshines Doc, but I prefer Doc way more. He requires a lot of creativity to work, but is more fun to use. Snake and Mega Man are my top 2 characters, but Doc is in third place for me.
Honestly I would make DR. Mario's pills stronger, having an out of shape sluggish doctor isn't that bad of an idea and as someone already made the comparison of white collar worker and blue collar worker; excellent comparison, I wish I thought of it first. That have the DR. Mario specials hit harder but his normal attacks not hit as hard making him rely more on his specials, also make his pill move faster by 25%. I love echo fighters for this reason.
While Mario is more athletic, Doc is a mid heavy powerhouse. In other words, Mario is a combo potential air fighter, while Doc is a more grounded in similar fashion as Little Mac
If you DI Mario’s ladder combos down and out opposite of the way mario is looking you won’t die unless you’re on Yoshi’s. Same thing with the dair DI mixup. As a Mario main I do with Ladders killed on other stages but they’re still amazing for damage so you can end up killing with a read. So for those of you dying to ladders just down and out my friends. Give those Mashio’s some payback. If you doubt me not only try it out but I’ve gotten max height with a ladder combo against Greninja on battlefield and it kill screened with Gren at 90% after the up b and it didn’t kill because of good DI.
Dr. Mario was one of my first characters I played in smash and now he's my second Main. You definitely have to work way harder to use dr. Mario than Mario and fundamentals are still very key to mastering both of them. If I could choose what to buff on Doctor Mario besides movement it would definitely be make his down be Invincible at the beginning and at the end of the move or just give it super armor all the way through it would make his recovery a lot better.
Dr. Mario player here I agree with everything and thank you for actually giving a in-depth analysis rather than just saying Doc is just trash I wish his recovery was slightly better 😢
Man there’s so much missing about Doc in this video as a certified Autistic Doctistic, but main points I think you missed were 1: Up Air doesn’t send directly up, but instead varies similar to Ganon’s Up air which contributes to Doc killing offstage and hurts his combo game as he can’t follow up Up-Air at higher percents 2: Docs tech chases can be busted if he can land them, having tornado being a long lasting armored option that can cover get up attack and normal get up, along side up B, back air, dash attack, and pill, but because he’s so slow it’s more situational to be able to get those tech chases. 3: You bring up that Docs cape doesn’t stall, but that’s actually the worst part for Doc. Recovering with Tornado needs you to angle your stick diagonally downward to make the most out of it, so you have what little momentum you can get without going nowhere, and you need to mash as much as possible to actually gain height and not lose any. It’s suicide if you accidentally cape instead of tornado and it’s possible with smash’s buffer system you could just cape your way down to hell. 4: Pill is amazing as a combo tool, but another important part of it is that it bounces instead of trailing the ground which serves to punish doc as smaller, faster characters like Pickachu or joker in his running animation can low profile consistently. Sorry if this comes off as condescending but I fucking love this character and I know them inside and out, and this video is great at keeping it simple without bogging people down with detail, thank you fellow Larry
Well, here's what I don't get it every fighting gamer is aware every frame per second counts, then why speed up those character's frames to improve the gameplay? That genuinely sounds like a great move.
we can all agree dr marios down air goes hard af
In this economy? Tims dair is stylin'
Timb boots that's right
Yeah can we agree that ?
who is we? Nintendo Wii?
Makes me laugh hard 🤣
It's interesting how Doc is equal or better than Mario in most things but he's bad because the three things Mario does better are the most important things to be better at.
Combos, speed, and recovery are really essential in this game
they're equal in almost nothing tbh
@@verde7595doc has better combos
@@verde7595I mean, isn’t the Dr. biggest defining trait is being slower, but hitting harder than Mario?
@@PointProvenno he does not
Dr. Mario has an epic yeet back throw. Makes all the downsides worth it.
That has made all the difference
True
The back throw and dair made me a doc main
Gotta throw them out of your office somehow.
I can somehow beat a Sheik main, and I used that same back throw to win lol
Dr. Mario isn’t as athletic because he spent his time getting a phd
I love how Doc's trophy in Melee basically explains this by stating that he's slower than Mario because of a lack of exercise lmao
@@theangrynerd101 so in the dr mario games dr mario is slightly more fat than the regular mario
in melee mario and dr mario have the same speed but the different its the fact of dr mario is more powerful character
in the alternative universe when mario still dating pauline but in the different job
@theangrynerd101
iirc, pauline guidance easter egg thing sorta confirms why doc hits harder.
it's because he knows where to hit, which implies doc understand the anatomy of every species in smash, including pokemon and whatever ganon are.
Doc is better the worse you are at the game. I can't string together more than 2-3 hit combos in a real match to save my life so those big meaty hits from doc do me wonders.
Yeah, I see what you mean. I have always had a bad combo execution with literally every characters, but Doc is very single-hit based along with a good frame data, making it easier to get in for me
You should play cloud then
I dont know how you and the 50people liking came to that conclusion but if you want to win while beeing bad at the game you shouldnt pick an "extremely high risk mid to high reward" character you should pick an "extremely low risk high reward" character... like min min and samus
@@Pkey995 Assuming they're playing against players of at least similar skill, they have a point. In low skill environments, powerful kill moves are the strongest because they aren't punished as often, and things like frame trapping, combos and timing dodges or parries are very uncommon. Frame data hardly matters at all when players can barely time their moves properly
@@dantebenedetti8095 hmm I mean I could see why sheik for example would be a bad character in a low skill environment due to the lack of kill power. But I would still disagree with doc due to many factors like recovering range and speed. Mario got more than enough kill power and you dont need to do insane combos for Mario to get your kills. But yeah when I think about low lvl players spaming for example docs tornado and never beeing punished I could understand if they think doc is better than mario.
It's almost like being a blue collar worker leaves you in better general shape than being a white collar worker.
So fuckin true. Definitely makes you better at fighting
Until your body breaks down at 40-50 years old and a whole lotta joint pains kick in.
Arguable
@@A.S._Trunks lmao!
Taking life advice from SmashBros is a bad idea. Dont get it twisted.
Fun Fact: all of Doc’s moves and movement properties have a stupid amount of decimal places (ledge getup does something like 7.87 damage). This is because the smash 4 devs made the basis for doc by taking Mario and applying +22 attack and -65 speed equipment (you guys remember equipment?)
equipment was so weird and useless. at least custom moves were different moves
wait so his power is only +10 but his speed is -30? that explains a lot lmao
Wasn't is +15 Attack and -50 Speed?
@@SonicTheCutehog Source: My memory lol. It could be wrong
@@bucketfullabiscuits7865 the community has spoken, we shall now spread the word and make sure to cite you
This really shows just how important movement is in Ultimate. A character that is almost identical is objectively worse because they are slower.
Kazuya is slower, but has a better recovery, so he's arguably the 2nd best character in the game. It might just be that Dr. Mario just needs a better recovery with I-frames or something.
i don't think the recovery is the first thing people think of when they think about kazuya @@WarningStrangerDanger
@@skyguy1236 Sure, but there aren't any DLC power creep characters with BAD recoveries, right? Kazuya has a massive midair jump and both side and up specials to choose from. Doc has... Nowhere near that much flexibility.
It's not really because he's slower honestly. It's definitely a con. but is offset by him being designed as more of a defensive character that forces approaches with pills and punishes approaches with heavy damaging combos. What really does him in is his awful recovery. For some reason they thought making him slower wasn't enough. so they decided to neuter any height his down b and up b get.
What we need is a Dr. Ganondorf
Ganondorf is just Dr. Falcon.
What we need is Dr. Jans
Dr. Ganondorf would just be immobile at this point
@@fissilewhistle mind blowing
Surgeon Punch has 4 seconds of start up but takes 2 stocks at once. -17 on shield.
FUN LARRY FACT: Larry’s favourite vegetables are spinach and broccoli
Good taste.
Delicious 😋😋😋😋
They are rich in minerals ✨️
Mine are broccoli and asparagus
i’ve seen you in an anthony fantano comment section i think
As someone who has a “sick Dr.Mario” the thing about him is that when you get in a start comboining your opponent he feels like better mario but when you start getting comboed he feel worse than Mac out of the bottom three characters he’s the best by leagues and bounds
Honestly...
You all think dr mario is bad, let me list you plenty of things that make him standout
-Super armor down b (grounded)
-His down b has crazy kill power, which leads to to easy kills whether edge guarding or not, it's also a multi hit so it drags your opponent in
-His up b has a strong hitbox (frame 1?)
-No spike fair but a STRONG one
- *Down air*
- His pills are way more bouncy, which easily pressures opponents, and try and make them less aggressive
-The goated back trow
-his down b makes up for good stalling and recovery potential, cuz this lets you stall more in the air, and it lets plan a bit more what you are gonna do, sadly it doesn't really let you get more height
-his side b has trip chance, *You know what that means*
And that's all i have to say as a dr mario main
Doctor Mario becomes a better character on stage if you utilize more spot dodges and cape. People usually can’t react to the turn around and doc can usually get a kill off of one single cape at mid or high percents which I find crazy.
I've been maining Doc lately and he is so much fun to play. All of his aerials are insanely good and punchy and his yeet back-throw is unstoppable. Winning with him gets you a lot of street cred too.
I always thought about doc as "ganondorf in marios body"
Mario being able to do two bairs and two uairs in a short hop is also a huge deal
Doc can do 2 up airs too
@L Guy but it doesnt really matter cuz of the angle/power dif
@Leaf Finite it does around twice as much damage though for the most part in terms of benefits and can lead to things like grab and even a stock at lower percents with enough rage near the ledge.
Mario has slightly better combo game but can struggle a bit more taking stocks unless he can cheese (which Doc can also do, but Doc does have benefits from also pretty much getting to play Sm4sh in terms of oos and grab game, and gets generally better reward off of raw hits whereas Mario needs specific percents to get great mileage)
Pills can also frame trap and can set up for a ton which is pretty nice
Additionally, most of his moves hit so hard that there's no chance of follow-up. His poor mobility just compounds this into meaning he basically has no advantage state. He just lands a hit, resets neutral, and fishes for kills when percent is high. I do like playing Doc - more than Mario, even. It just leaves him feeling exceptionally honest, and massively reliant on fundies and reads. If he had just a bit more of a combo game, and a less pathetic Up-b distance, I think he'd be mid-tier. I don't mind his mobility so much, as I'm primarily an Incineroar main.. but the knockback on just about every move in his arsenal means few true follow-ups, and his recovery is such dog water, that he's rewarded less for winning neutral and punished harder for losing it than the majority of the cast.
You also described a lot of what makes Ganondorf incredibly bad that most people don't consider. His individual attacks hit really hard, but since he has little to no combo game, "combo" characters actually have a higher damage output on average, and those with consistent kill confirms end up being a greater threat, but because big man hit hard dumb dumbs get scared and refuse to acknowledge that a bad character needs buffs.
@@toddscanlan2574 Oh that's a completely different soapbox I get on that you've done a great job of covering. I love Ganondorf and he's a character I continue to pull out from time to time, but he's just starving for tools. He's only as scary as you are scared of him. If you treat him with no respect, you realize very quickly that he's pretty dependent on you being scared of him.
@@squidinc4376 Yes, exactly. But if your opponent isn't scared at that point you just better hope that you're a better player, or at least your opponent has bad habits that you can exploit. If there is one thing that Ganon is good at it's hard punishing.
@@toddscanlan2574 facts. I'll switch to Ganondorf if I'm reading an opponent but just not able to execute a punish well enough with another character.
He has plenty of good combos. Skill issue
Dr. Mario lost a lot of mobility and flexibility while in med school for 8 years. Also lost a lot of motivation
They gutted his mobility.
Mario has good mobility with a high jump and great airspeed along with many good combo tools to compliment it.
Doc has some of the slowest physics & his moveset (mainly Up-Air) didn't fully compliment it.
His shorter traveling Up-B is just the cherry ontop.
Yup
Some other things people forget about doc are that his back air actually lingers longer than regular Mario’s making it better edge guarding and combing. His up smash also lasts longer so the front hit box actually hits people in front of him unlike regular Mario’s. Also his dash attack sends people up making it way better for combos than regular Mario. He’s got some really good stuff honestly
His upair is pretty good aswell in early combos out of upthrow or down throw or as a combo starter and as a killing move.
love this video! it feels like comparing the two is silly bc their differences are so obvious, but this detailed breakdown is still really interesting and informational
It's really just because he can't be a better character than Mario because its MARIO, but he also can't be the same, so all that's left is to be a worse character. That being said it's still outrageous that he's that much worse than his counterpart.
Funny enough in melee Dr. Mario was beloved because of how he can round better than the normal Mario and people only know Dr. Mario in smash is because of his competitive legacy in Melee.
@@StateOfTheMind11225only because they forgot to actually make him slower than regular Mario, meaning he literally was just a superior Mario in every way in that game
8:11 When doc hits you with his foot it doesn’t do much but if he hits you with his A$$ you die for some reason
However, Mario is a more viable character but, dr Mario is much more hype character to watch once you get really good with him, I personally don't think he's a bad character if you ignore his terrible recovery plus, for a "slow character" some of his attacks are actually kinda fast
Doc is bad. You will only beat bad players with doc.
@@1stbestpokemaster Alright Mr "regular Mario"
@@bold3166 I don’t play Mario. I main pikachu/lucina. Pika for rush downs/zoners. Lucina for consistent swordie to deal with everything else. Doc is just bad.
@@1stbestpokemaster I didn't ask your mains, lol
I think Mario is more hype to watch tbh, especially with people like Kurama. The problem with Doc is that I mostly see him pill camping until his opponent is in the corner
While I think it's cool to have Dr. Mario to be the stronger but slower version of Mario, I think the devs have pushed this idea too far and Dr. Mario is held back by being solely defined by this trope, and as a result he feels incomplete and awkward to play. For the next game they should round out his strengths and weaknesses, and make his moveset a bit more cohesive. Imo an air speed buff and giving him a real aerial combo starter would be great. Giving him a faster and bigger dash attack like Meta Knight's would also help.
Actually, there is so much potential for a entirely different moveset from Mario, would be cool to see
What next game this is the last one
You guys got to be dumb if you think they aren’t going to make another one. When the next console comes out there will be a smash bros on it
@@danielvaladez1286 it makes too much money for this to be the last game. you are wrong 100%
@@zandithshloper2005
Where does one go after Smash ULTIMATE?
Smash Ultimate 2? Hyper Smash Ultimate?
If Doc is so bad? Why everytime that i encounter a regular Mario in Elite Smash i think: Ok, i just have to care about his grab combos.
And when i encounter a DOC, i know that he'll crush me, dunking my characters more than PRIME Shaq'. Dr.Mario players are very scary.
Just run away from him
Doc online is disgusting if he touches you. Less neutral interactions to get the job done compared to mario in my experience facing him. Hits like a truck
This man has single handedly made me pick Doc right back up for no reason lmao
Mario=Capt. Falcon, Dr. Mario=Ganondorf
In short Mario is faster but weaker and Doc is slower but stronger
Doc recovery will never be the worst. That airdodge alone is crazy. Mac could never
Larry was definitely on drugs when he said that.
The thing is lil Mac can travel more distance in the air because he has the same air speed as Mario, sure his up is worse but he has side b and better air mobility so he can make it back from further, I don’t think docs is necessarily worse than macs it just depends on the matchup
@@fullysemiautomatic5618 Mac side B too laggy
Dr. Mario is just diet Mario but with all of Mario's weaknesses + his own. Oddly enough, I still prefer the doc. I guess I've always just been drawn towards characters that are considered low tier. They tend to be way more fun and rewarding to win with.
Tweek talks but Larry analyzes
Doc being so much worse than Mario in Smash 4 and Ultimate is because the devs adjusted Dr. Mario's stats using custom equipment. Dr. Mario's stats are coded as the same as Mario's, but are given multipliers in game. Generally, Dr. Mario is Mario with +15 Attack and -50 Speed.
Dr. Mario basically has 2 things going for him: Pills and better kill power. Otherwise, Mario is better at everything else. More speed, get string combos together and have them last much longer, better down special, better recovery and jump height, etc. Both characters are fairly easy to use, with Doc being better for bad players and beginners while Mario is better for mid/high level players and people who know the basics and fundamentals of the game. At least Doc had his time to shine in Melee.
I personally think Doc's down special is better than Mario's. FLUDD is very niche, while Doc Tornado aids recovery AND is a powerful kill move.
Shaved Larry = Dr. Mario
Mustache Larry = Mario
It sucks that with other clone characters (Marth/Lucina, Simon/Richter, Roy/Chrom) their physics weren’t changed much if at all
If doc had the same physics as Mario, he’d be so much better, no recovery changes necessary
Except then he'd be ridiculous. He'd need to get a damage/knickknacks nerf. Basically a ganon+Mario mash up
I think the fact the clones characters have the same stats sucks for those clones. Would’ve been much more interesting if all of them had different stats to differentiate them further from their original. Though I guess that would’ve not made them clones anymore.
well those characters you listed are echoes, not clones- examples of other clones would be C. Falcon/Ganondorf or Marth/Roy
Mario/Dr. Mario is better executed than Simon/Richter, because at least there’s actual gameplay differences, what was the point of making Simon and Richter separate characters if they wouldn’t even be given the Pit/Dark Pit treatment?
I want his old up-b turnaround back. I swear it was way easier in Smash 4
Dr. Mario has good moves but his garbage mobility and speed means that he's beaten to the punch every time. Add an awful recovery to that and his disadvantage sucks, makes for a perfect bottom 5 character.
To an extent, he can compensate for his lack of range and speed with his frame data and if he's shielding a lot it can be annoying. That's why I don't think he's the worst. But you never have to play his game, so it's just delaying the inevitable lol
Mario runs after gyal, steals coins and items wherever he goes, he intentionally lets peach get kidnapped just to go “save her”, manipulation tactics, abuses his brother, I could go on and on. Dr Mario just studied, got his doctorate, and gives pills to mfs. He’s the honourable one
Dr Mario isn’t a character. He’s a message. From the developers. Showing us how powerful they are with their game and how powerless we truly are, how we are in the end we truly are playing THEIR game. Playing by THEIR rules. Our likes and dislikes mean nothing to them
Dr. Mario will forever be more fun than Mario due to the fact that instead of relying on combo strings that every other Mario player does, you have to have true game sense and reading abilities to pull shit off, and when you do it feels amazing.
I love you Larry , you are so thorough with a video like this. Thank you for your HARD WORK and doing a good job sir
Another very important difference you missed is that doc’s back throw is infinitely more gangster 💯
One cool thing with doc's tornado is that it doesn't cancel if you reach the ground. So it can't miss the last hit if you do it too low like mario's. You can even do it fully grounded and it's really useful is some matchups.
I dig the clean shave. Is it weird character month over here on the Larry channel? Man I am here for it.
Dr. Mario is what would happen if he didn't find that secret pipe.
I understand what they were going for, with Dr. Mario being the slower but stronger variant of Mario, but it makes no sense. Just give him the same mobility as Mario, he's the same person. It would help him out massively, and he'd still be different because his moves come out slower, send at different angles, and hit harder.
At that point just make a new character, why would I want to play mario but his moves are a bit different?
4:25 that’s cus those pills be fucking you up
Doc is my favorite character to use in a casual session… because that’s the only time I do well with him.
Even though Dr. Mario sucks because he's slow, that doesn't stop me from maining hin.
Dr. Mario is the heavy weight version of Mario. Slow but strong but none of the weight and still has the moveset that is suppose to combo when most hits knock the opponent out of the combo.
Recovery and ladder combos are the only reason. Doctor Mario's normals, throws, specials and smash attacks are *amazing*. He has one of the most cursed up smashes in the entire game. That angle is so dirty. Kill confirms from down tilt, down throw, pill, up air (Although getting a kill combo from up air is really hard). Tornado can also kill at sub 50 off the side in distance for him to still make it back. Fastest OOS Up B in the game as well, and it kills!
You forgot the forbidden dr mario tech. You can pill somebody to hit them offstage near the ledge and downair them for a basically guaranteed kill.
I think the different coloured pills should have different elemental properties assigned to them: blue freezes, yellow electrocutes and red burns. The next coloured pill to be thrown could be displayed next to Doc's icon so the player and opponent can strategise around it.
Absolutely not. This is a copycat of sora. Doc's pill is special BECAUSE it pops you up and stuns, allowing for a follow up. Making his pills elemental takes away from this particular uniqueness
Some thing people dont mention often is there is a slightly built in auto turn around when you are using up B near ledge and your opponent has crossed you up.
Say youre on FD, trying to recover from low magnet hands style, but your opponent is standing on tip of ledge, youre facing left to magnet, your opponent is slightly above and to the right of you, so it will often make you up b to the right, outward, which does not snap ledge, so you either overshoot or need to drift back, but doc has no drift. this happens for all characters with diagonal up b recoveries, shoto, marth and lucina, marios, captain falcon and ganon. Its very deadly and noticeable when the character has a bad recovery and drift.
doc def needs a longer cape that can stall, back in melee i used to land cape turnarounds on fox and falcos all day, and now the timing has to be so precise. same with using it on say chrom or ike, you miss time it and youre dead at 0, because you have to be so close that it scoops you in while cape moves your body forward a bit. i tried in training mode and it was a 80-90% success rate but in practice you just lose too many early stocks to risk it.
once i noticed doc has one more active frame on his up smash and now i always get pissed when i cant hit people in front of me as regular mario
Dr. Mario is probably the biggest example of mobility being way more important than raw damage in Smash
If they just either buffed his mobility or made his attack power even greater, he’d probably be at least a decent character
Really liking the new outro song on these videos, so chill
If doc had a good recovery he'd be what pika is to pichu as doc would be to Mario. Doc has shaving out of shield. Frame data. Kill confirms. Cyclone armor. Cape. And pill is funky to go against sometimes. He just needs a better recovery.
A character with better kill confirms is typically going to have some major flaws that balances them out. Sometimes they’re slower, have bad frame data, horrible air combat/mobility, etc.
However I think strategy is what makes the difference at the end of the day. One character can have more advantages than the other but it doesn’t mean that character is going to win the match just because. The player has to have the knowledge and skills to win and not play to the advantages of the opponent.
That’s what I always notice at least when I play in a bad match up. It always feels like I have to work extra hard not to give into my normal strategy and find another solution that doesn’t allow my opponent to utilize their characters natural born abilities
Docs biggest issue imo is punish game. His fair is theoretically more useful than mario since it can kill from more parts of stage, but doc is never comboing into fair. Mario does constantly. If doc could actually get mario level combos hed be good. Regardless of recovery
Dr. Mario being debatably the worst character in the game? Not even close
I think Mario's punish game is just better, because even though doc has more confirms and set ups, bacon and the competitive players have to get reads and win 4-5 neutral interactions before killing.
With Mario you win 2-3 and you can just combo them off the top of get a F-air spike, and even if it doesn't kill, congrats your opponent is at 90-100%
Dr Mario's old and tired and doesn't adventure anymore. He goes to the gym every so often and lifts weights for a while but he's not as limber as he was in his youthful adventuring days. He's slow and strong but his body's starting to hurt, so he doesn't have the patience for fancy tricks and gadgets like FLUDD.
That's my interpretation of Smash Doc Mario anyway.
If doc at the VERY least had a range increase on his attacks, it’d make his downgrades that more bearable. Making him so much slower, giving him a much worse recovery, and way less combo potential and the only payoff is better kill power just isn’t worth it
I think people need to stop letting mario go to PS2. He is not ok on that stage, the extra platform height compared to SBF makes all the difference for living or dying
I do agree, but the problem is that Mario is still really good on other platform stages. Depending on the stagelist and match up PS2 is the lesser of evils
give him down b recovery back after he's hit and make up b go just a bit further.
He recovers real bad, Up b also gets slightly nerfed cause its more punishable, but I think that's defo worth it
Winning with dr Mario we all love and respect you you’ve stuck around the community since melee winning with Mario you’ve been broke since brawl no one will be hyped if you win honestly Mario is a lot less toxic then Wii Us version cuz the enhanced air dodging n speed of ultimate but he has some of the easiest bread n butter combos n spikes in the game I don’t hate him I just think of all the Mario mascots which r debatablely some of the most unique n fun characters in the series why main just Mario theirs no heart no soul
I find it really interesting how what are basically just number differences can change a character’s viability so much (Ik they have some different attacks but it’s barley any)
It's cause of slow movement one of if not the worst recovery in the game and stubby range. If he double jumps wrong in neutral that could lead him to lose a stock and because his air drift and ground speed is so bad it's easy to juggle him and just run away from him. The only thing he has going for him is damage and some combo potential but what good are those things if you can never hit your opponent. The only reason a dr mario player beats anyone is just due to match up inexperience and the other player being better
I sometimes troll Mario players by beating them with Dr. Mario.
His recovery sucks but he’s a pretty heavy hitter
Reflector, early kill confirms, consistent 30%+ combos, frame 3 up-B that kills OOS, insane aerial frame data, combos+kill confirms off of projectiles, one of the best back-airs in the game and a great wave bounce for extra sauce on top. He has the second worst recovery in the game but I believe doc has sufficient tools to win a major.
And what happens if you are dealing with anybody that uses big swords, or are fighting somebody like Joker?
@@spoonmugen5599 pill :(
@@brick3827 Which will only get us so far. God help us if we go offstage.
@@spoonmugen5599 his recovery is his biggest weakness definitely. Although i think his pills, especially b-reversing them in the air, completely carry his neutral against alot of faster characters that tend to exploit his movement speed. He can also play quite a nasty keep-out game with his back-air and pill spamming.
@@brick3827 I know. I main Doc. Still, in exchane for reducing Tornado/Fair's killpower, I'd gladly take mobility buffs, especially in airspeed and acceleration.
Don’t sleep on Doc….
so basically good across all smash games = speed (air or ground or both) if you can reach the target faster you can keep up the combo pressure. High knockback characters with poor recovery never make it in this games, ever.
Maybe unpopular, but I've always liked Doc way more than Mario, especially in Ultimate. Yes, he has less mobility, but I can't play Mario even close to the level that my Doc is. I started getting good with Doc in Smash 4 because of Luigi and his cyclone similarities.
Also, many people are quick to say, "Tornado is bad as recovery option." That's not always the case." It can be used to stall and assist in a low recovery off stage. It can also be used to punish characters who can recover high. For example, Snake likes to cipher-up high and I can't count how many times I've punished that since no one expects Doc to reach up high.
Plus, pills are better for stage control. I find them much easier to sneak in on an opponent than fireballs.
Lastly, up-B out-of-shield is so satisfying. The threat of it at high percents makes people play more cautiously, which Doc can capitalize on.
Ultimately, I still think Mario's mobility outshines Doc, but I prefer Doc way more. He requires a lot of creativity to work, but is more fun to use.
Snake and Mega Man are my top 2 characters, but Doc is in third place for me.
7:56 The later hits of Ganondorf’s down B are stronger than the initial hit.
Honestly I would make DR. Mario's pills stronger, having an out of shape sluggish doctor isn't that bad of an idea and as someone already made the comparison of white collar worker and blue collar worker; excellent comparison, I wish I thought of it first. That have the DR. Mario specials hit harder but his normal attacks not hit as hard making him rely more on his specials, also make his pill move faster by 25%.
I love echo fighters for this reason.
If he just had regular Mario's movement and air speed, he'd be amazing and insanely more fun to play as.
I hate Cloud's bottom tier recovery
While Mario is more athletic, Doc is a mid heavy powerhouse.
In other words, Mario is a combo potential air fighter, while Doc is a more grounded in similar fashion as Little Mac
he's even got the smash haircut
>Not as fast as Mario
>More knockback (less combos) than Mario
>Fair doesn't spike (no swag)
>Ass recovery even with Luigi's Tornado
I could forgive the slower mobility if Doc had a decent combo game and/or recovery. But really, he is just a worse Mario that hits slightly harder.
If you DI Mario’s ladder combos down and out opposite of the way mario is looking you won’t die unless you’re on Yoshi’s. Same thing with the dair DI mixup. As a Mario main I do with Ladders killed on other stages but they’re still amazing for damage so you can end up killing with a read. So for those of you dying to ladders just down and out my friends. Give those Mashio’s some payback. If you doubt me not only try it out but I’ve gotten max height with a ladder combo against Greninja on battlefield and it kill screened with Gren at 90% after the up b and it didn’t kill because of good DI.
Dr. Mario was one of my first characters I played in smash and now he's my second Main. You definitely have to work way harder to use dr. Mario than Mario and fundamentals are still very key to mastering both of them. If I could choose what to buff on Doctor Mario besides movement it would definitely be make his down be Invincible at the beginning and at the end of the move or just give it super armor all the way through it would make his recovery a lot better.
Also let it gain height more than once while airborne (Have to be hit first).
Still no one talks about Doc's jab upb
Dr. Mario player here I agree with everything and thank you for actually giving a in-depth analysis rather than just saying Doc is just trash I wish his recovery was slightly better 😢
It's because he's a healer not a fighter
Thing about dr mario he DIDNT always have the down tilt up b confirm as down tilt used to be very slow
As a Dr mario main, my life is pain
Man there’s so much missing about Doc in this video as a certified Autistic Doctistic, but main points I think you missed were
1: Up Air doesn’t send directly up, but instead varies similar to Ganon’s Up air which contributes to Doc killing offstage and hurts his combo game as he can’t follow up Up-Air at higher percents
2: Docs tech chases can be busted if he can land them, having tornado being a long lasting armored option that can cover get up attack and normal get up, along side up B, back air, dash attack, and pill, but because he’s so slow it’s more situational to be able to get those tech chases.
3: You bring up that Docs cape doesn’t stall, but that’s actually the worst part for Doc. Recovering with Tornado needs you to angle your stick diagonally downward to make the most out of it, so you have what little momentum you can get without going nowhere, and you need to mash as much as possible to actually gain height and not lose any. It’s suicide if you accidentally cape instead of tornado and it’s possible with smash’s buffer system you could just cape your way down to hell.
4: Pill is amazing as a combo tool, but another important part of it is that it bounces instead of trailing the ground which serves to punish doc as smaller, faster characters like Pickachu or joker in his running animation can low profile consistently.
Sorry if this comes off as condescending but I fucking love this character and I know them inside and out, and this video is great at keeping it simple without bogging people down with detail, thank you fellow Larry
Doc also has slightly more landing lag on their shared aerials
Doc also has substantially more student loan debt
They could buff the frame data on his nonrecovery attacks by a few frames having him hit slightly faster. Though this might require a power adjustment
Well, here's what I don't get it every fighting gamer is aware every frame per second counts, then why speed up those character's frames to improve the gameplay? That genuinely sounds like a great move.
yeah but Doctor Mario is slightly more funny
Did someone in chat really say "worse than Mac's recovery?" Mac's recovery isn't even that bad. It goes far and he has mixups 😭 Ganondorf though...
snake dash attack for speed
Seeing shaved Larry is still uncanny
It's literally the same reason why Falcon is top tier but Ganon is bottom tier