Here is some background information: at this point the boats are the middle portion of a multi-segment, random leg course, and they had been going back and forth between two marks (1.9nm apart), three times total. This collision occurred just after rounding a mark and at the beginning of the last leg of those three segments, and according to a GPS track, the lead boats shown were on a “rhumb” line between those two marks, heading at 017 degrees True. There are three lead boats, the boat from which the recording was made, followed by a 40 ft Beneteau, and then Tomol. The TWA was close to perpendicular to the rhumb line, putting the two Catalina 385s at the fastest point of sail in their polars, and at close to hull velocity (7.7kts) in the 12-15 kt wind. So, they were going about 13 ft/sec each, or closing on each other at 26 ft/sec, the latter of which is 2/3 of their boat-length per second. Marblehead was downwind of the rhumb line at the time and had to get to the other side of the pin for a port rounding. According to GPS tracking data, the collision occurred at about 230 ft from the pin, about 115 ft outside of any 3-boat-length circle for the two boats. They scraped each other in the rear 1/3 of each boat. The skipper of Marblehead could not see the skipper of Tomol, because their eye contact was blocked by Tomol's sails until the last 2-3 seconds or so (and vice versa). Tomol had two people who might have seen the approach of Marblehead, but they were facing/standing backwards as they brought in the headsail sheet after the rounding. As Tomol started to round the mark, Marblehead was about 800 feet back and a fair offset downwind from the rhumb line. Tomol's headsail would block any view of Marblehead in the rounding. It was quite windy, creating a higher background noise level, plus anyone shouting on Marblehead would be shouting upwind, which causes sound to be refracted upwards to the tune of up to a 20 dB loss in amplitude at water level (so something like an airhorn would be necessary, if sound warnings are used). And the ultimate tragedy: the people at the helm of each boat were best friends.
Also keep in mind that these boats are about 22,500 lbs each as equipped and crewed, and they don't turn instantly, nor on a "dime". And their hull designs are for cruising, not racing. Plus, the human reflexes, when suddenly confronted with an unexpected situation, factor in. The telephoto lens compresses our perception of depth, but one can estimate where the boats are, relatively, by looking at the video timeline and the velocities I gave for each boat.
@@RobertLangan-c9r Good background. No excuse though, and it was poorly sailed by both boats. Both to be disqualified as per my application of the rule book in an above comment.
"See and avoid" is the ultimate rule in navigation. Marblehead might have had both leeward and starboard tack in its favor, but it failed to mitigate collision. While I wasn't there, it appeared that the windward vessel on port possibly didn't see them and that Marblehead had a clear view of the situation. Marblehead also initiated a late change of course. Rules or no rules, that's not the most "gentlemanly" action to pursue when in such close vicinity to a marker and definitely not the wisest. I don't have any idea what the COLREGS or the race regs would say about that, but I have my own opinion as to what they should say. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall at the protest hearing.
Port tack boat is clearly in breach, they had enough time to tack. Starboard boat could have easily avoided collision by ducking past and protest,i instead of deep turning where the swinging stern hit port tack boat. Poor seamanship on both sides.
This is a race. So first think is to assume then that COLREGS are not in force, but the Racing Rules of Sailing! Marblehead possibly breaks R16.1 "When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear". Tamal does break R10 "When boats are on opposite tacks, a port-tack boat shall keep clear of a starboard-tack boat" because she does NOTHING for 5 seconds (misses to keep a good look out at this position on the race course where it is very much needed, as boats will come up to mark on SB tack). If Tamal had luffed latest 2 seconds after Marbleheads luff, Tamal had been in breach of no rules - but they failed to respond and so breaks R10. Marblehead breaks R14 "A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible". So a decent jury would disqualify both vessels. It is evident that the boats racing here are without skilled crews, but they were having fun at a charity race. When you are not skilled don't sail so close, and for sure make a late luff... and don't throw your boat down swinging out your stern. Lot's to learn for both crews.
@@biggyswa9287 Get your rule book out and find the rule you would use in the protest room! You are on thin ice "believing" stuff.. I don't have to pull out the book to know it is R18 you are interested in. Difficult rule that one, and few people understand it - even though they think they do. Note that you are using wrong words that would get you killed in "the room". What does "inside of the mark" mean? Do you mean that Tamal is in the zone? For sure Tamal has no "right of way" - they are on port tack and they ARE breaking R10, but are they "taking mark-room" so that they are exonerated when breaking R10.. You really have to lean back and read R18 slowly. Then read 43.1(b). And if you are not keen on studying then just know that you are all wrong because of 18.1 (c) "18.1 When Rule 18 Applies Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does not apply (a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward, (b) between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack, (c) between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it, or (d) if the mark is a continuing obstruction, in which case rule 19 applies. Rule 18 no longer applies between boats when mark-room has been given. Cheers!
@@biggyswa9287 Tamal completed it's mark rounding and had established a port tack heading. Marblehead changing course, headed up, maybe trying to point a better course to the mark. Marblehead helm should have had clear sight on Tamal. Not sure why Tamal didn't change course, they knew they had multiple traffic too weather and were the give way boat to all of it. Doesn't Tamal at least always win it's class at these Dana Point events? We can't really hold that against them......can we (?) Where was Cool Man Cool?
Good analysis. In addition Marblehead failed to hail, and therefore it could be argued that she failed to maintain a watch in addition to to your points.
The boat on starboard changed course, right into the path of the port-tack boat. Prior to that, the port tack boat was keeping clear. The course change makes the starboard tack boat responsible for the damage that happened next. I'm glad someone got it on video.
Port tack yacht required to keep clear of yacht on starboard and appears not to have. Starboard tack yacht failed to avoid collision. Starboard tack yacht also altered course and appeared not to give port tack yacht room to avoid collision. If all true, both should be disqualified.
Clear case of Starboard tack has right of way. Port tack boat immediately retired, showing he knew. People blaming the helmsman of the S tack boat for not managing to avoid the collision by reversing his helm once his bow had cleared the others transom are missing that he was actually trying to tack away. Meanwhile, the give way vessel appeared to do nothing to try to kick her stern to port, which might have helped. No matter how you parse it, there is no doubt that responsibility for the collision rests squarely with the Port tack vessel. During races, whenever close hauled on starboard tack, I would detail one of my crew to keep a continuous lookout under the Genoa for boats crossing.
R12 applies in the first instance as does R17 a i. It should be noted the the port tack vessel failed in all of her duties at all times. The vessel on stbd turned briefly to starboard as R17 a ii came into effect. The vessel for some unknown reason reversed the minor alteration and recreated the original situation. Had good seamanship been applied a 360 turn to starboard would have been the appropriate manoeuvre at that point. However, having reverted to the original situation and the distance further reduced, R17 b came into effect. The turn to port was feasible but badly conducted as it was too full a turn. So, in brief the port tack yacht was at fault and the Stbd tack yacht made poor decisions late and then poor helmsmanship caused a collision.
@@MrGentlebutfirm 2108 version. R12 & 17 remain unchanged in the 7th Edition 2021. There are no Racing Rules in Colregs and R17 does not deal with sailing vessels.
@@csjrogerson2377 The Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) governs the sport of sailboat and sailboard racing. It is revised and published every four years by World Sailing. The current edition is the RRS 2021-2024. Rule 12: ON THE SAME TACK, NOT OVERLAPPED When boats are on the same tack and not overlapped, a boat clear astern shall keep clear of a boat clear ahead. Rule 17: ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear. YOU WROTE THIS NONSENSE: "R12 applies in the first instance as does R17 a i."
@@MrGentlebutfirm I was only talking about COLREGS NOT RRS which are not mandatory. I can run a race without using RRS if I want to. My PO was and is correct.
@@csjrogerson2377 So Mister ROgersOn... What was hard to understand, when I asked you "Which rule book are you working with?", and further helped out by "In the latest version of the Racing Rules of Sailing both R12 and R17 deals with boats on the same tack???" ... Go back and see you disappointing answer... You should have answered the bloody question with "I am using COLREGS". Then I could say... "Duh, It's a regatta - sure you should start hammering away using COLREGS???" AND YOU ARE TOTALLY IRRELEVANT... www.regattanetwork.com/clubmgmt/regatta_uploads/28039/SAILINGINSTRUCTIONS2024CRFinalMay23.pdf The Internet potential is lost with people like you that does not listen and think, and just "do it for themselves.." "My PO was and is correct" my a..
The stbd boat didn't give the port tack boat any possibilty to avoid the stbd tack boat after changing their course. The rules require a right of way boat to give the other boat time to take evasive manouvers in a seamanship manner, this didn't happen here. The stbd boat could also have avoided the collision if it hadn't made that large a evasive manouver, or at least caused much less damage.
The RRS Racing Rules of Sailing do not state that a starboard boat has to give a port boat time to respond! RRS do however state that a collision should be avoided in which starboard failed miserably. RRS state that a port boat shall avoid a starboard tack boat. In this case they are obviously cruisers having a bit of fun and the port Tacker doesn't have any idea that a starboard boat is approaching. Even though they are equally inept sailors, the port boat is totally at fault.
The boat on the left is the stand on boat because it is on a starboard tack. The boat on port tack should keep clear. The stand on boat did change course which confuses the issue. Saying that the port tack boat should have kept well clear. There maybe issues to do with racing I have no clue about.
Starboard tack boat clearly rounded up toward the port tack boat. One cannot claim right of way when other boats don’t know your course! And, of course, the overarching rule - avoid collision at all cost. A simple protest would have been a lot less costly for everyone.
I think the stbd tack boat got rounded up by weather helm, not a delibrate course change. port tack expected he was clear and stb tack would have passed behind him.
They turned more than thy had to. The port tracker also turned. Than the sterns collided. Happens al the time. Over reacting can undo some or all of the good of reacting.
Just a point of interest: the give way boat remains such until it becomes clear that he can longer keep clear. Then the right of way boat becomes the give way bot and it is his responsibility to keep clear and avoid the collision. In this case, pretty crap course and pretty poor sailing imho😅
Stand by to TACK (not gybe)....... Each skipper has the responsibility to make EVERY EFFORT to avoid a collision...In this case boat on starboard tack turns into vessel on port tack. This was a case of playing chicken. Note no sounding device was heard.
Actually, the r-o-w vessel has a duty to maintain her course, only taking action when it is clear she has no other alternative. This rule is to avoid situations in which both ships take action in the same direction, making matters worse. I have never heard a sound signal used during racing. A loud shout of “Starboard!” Is generally used if you think they haven’t seen you; to be clear, the absence of hail does not absolve the give-way vessel, at all.
Pretty clear that port did not keep clear despite several options to do so. As always, some responsibility will be given to the starboard boat for failing to avoid a collision. Hopefully lots of yelling of starboard was occurring prior to the last second which is so important if port boat is not aware of the other boat. Port boat at fault for not keeping clear of starboard.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Marblehead panicked and oversteered. If he had gone amidships once the bow was clear the stern would have missed
Here is some background information: at this point the boats are the middle portion of a multi-segment, random leg course, and they had been going back and forth between two marks (1.9nm apart), three times total. This collision occurred just after rounding a mark and at the beginning of the last leg of those three segments, and according to a GPS track, the lead boats shown were on a “rhumb” line between those two marks, heading at 017 degrees True. There are three lead boats, the boat from which the recording was made, followed by a 40 ft Beneteau, and then Tomol. The TWA was close to perpendicular to the rhumb line, putting the two Catalina 385s at the fastest point of sail in their polars, and at close to hull velocity (7.7kts) in the 12-15 kt wind. So, they were going about 13 ft/sec each, or closing on each other at 26 ft/sec, the latter of which is 2/3 of their boat-length per second. Marblehead was downwind of the rhumb line at the time and had to get to the other side of the pin for a port rounding. According to GPS tracking data, the collision occurred at about 230 ft from the pin, about 115 ft outside of any 3-boat-length circle for the two boats. They scraped each other in the rear 1/3 of each boat.
The skipper of Marblehead could not see the skipper of Tomol, because their eye contact was blocked by Tomol's sails until the last 2-3 seconds or so (and vice versa). Tomol had two people who might have seen the approach of Marblehead, but they were facing/standing backwards as they brought in the headsail sheet after the rounding. As Tomol started to round the mark, Marblehead was about 800 feet back and a fair offset downwind from the rhumb line. Tomol's headsail would block any view of Marblehead in the rounding. It was quite windy, creating a higher background noise level, plus anyone shouting on Marblehead would be shouting upwind, which causes sound to be refracted upwards to the tune of up to a 20 dB loss in amplitude at water level (so something like an airhorn would be necessary, if sound warnings are used). And the ultimate tragedy: the people at the helm of each boat were best friends.
Also keep in mind that these boats are about 22,500 lbs each as equipped and crewed, and they don't turn instantly, nor on a "dime". And their hull designs are for cruising, not racing. Plus, the human reflexes, when suddenly confronted with an unexpected situation, factor in. The telephoto lens compresses our perception of depth, but one can estimate where the boats are, relatively, by looking at the video timeline and the velocities I gave for each boat.
@@RobertLangan-c9r Good background. No excuse though, and it was poorly sailed by both boats. Both to be disqualified as per my application of the rule book in an above comment.
I'm curious, are they still best friends?
@@northof4985 Yes, they are closer than ever! 😅
@@MrGentlebutfirm I somehow doubt the disqualification is the salient issue
It’s the endless love affair with steering wheels.
It slowed down reaction time.
"See and avoid" is the ultimate rule in navigation. Marblehead might have had both leeward and starboard tack in its favor, but it failed to mitigate collision. While I wasn't there, it appeared that the windward vessel on port possibly didn't see them and that Marblehead had a clear view of the situation. Marblehead also initiated a late change of course. Rules or no rules, that's not the most "gentlemanly" action to pursue when in such close vicinity to a marker and definitely not the wisest. I don't have any idea what the COLREGS or the race regs would say about that, but I have my own opinion as to what they should say.
I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall at the protest hearing.
Port tack boat is clearly in breach, they had enough time to tack.
Starboard boat could have easily avoided collision by ducking past and protest,i instead of deep turning where the swinging stern hit port tack boat. Poor seamanship on both sides.
Exactly.. "Starboard boat could have easily avoided collision by ducking past and protest" "Poor seamanship on both sides" exactly...👍
Love the annotations that help viewers see the mark & the boats involved!
This is a race. So first think is to assume then that COLREGS are not in force, but the Racing Rules of Sailing! Marblehead possibly breaks R16.1 "When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear". Tamal does break R10 "When boats are on opposite tacks, a port-tack boat shall keep clear of a starboard-tack boat" because she does NOTHING for 5 seconds (misses to keep a good look out at this position on the race course where it is very much needed, as boats will come up to mark on SB tack). If Tamal had luffed latest 2 seconds after Marbleheads luff, Tamal had been in breach of no rules - but they failed to respond and so breaks R10. Marblehead breaks R14 "A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible". So a decent jury would disqualify both vessels. It is evident that the boats racing here are without skilled crews, but they were having fun at a charity race. When you are not skilled don't sail so close, and for sure make a late luff... and don't throw your boat down swinging out your stern. Lot's to learn for both crews.
I believe since Tamal was rounding the mark and was inside of the mark they had right of way regardless of tack line.
@@biggyswa9287 Get your rule book out and find the rule you would use in the protest room! You are on thin ice "believing" stuff.. I don't have to pull out the book to know it is R18 you are interested in. Difficult rule that one, and few people understand it - even though they think they do. Note that you are using wrong words that would get you killed in "the room". What does "inside of the mark" mean? Do you mean that Tamal is in the zone? For sure Tamal has no "right of way" - they are on port tack and they ARE breaking R10, but are they "taking mark-room" so that they are exonerated when breaking R10.. You really have to lean back and read R18 slowly. Then read 43.1(b).
And if you are not keen on studying then just know that you are all wrong because of 18.1 (c)
"18.1 When Rule 18 Applies
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark
on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it
does not apply
(a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,
(b) between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the
mark for one but not both of them is to tack,
(c) between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it, or
(d) if the mark is a continuing obstruction, in which case rule 19
applies.
Rule 18 no longer applies between boats when mark-room has been
given.
Cheers!
@@biggyswa9287 Tamal completed it's mark rounding and had established a port tack heading.
Marblehead changing course, headed up, maybe trying to point a better course to the mark.
Marblehead helm should have had clear sight on Tamal. Not sure why Tamal didn't change course,
they knew they had multiple traffic too weather and were the give way boat to all of it. Doesn't Tamal
at least always win it's class at these Dana Point events? We can't really hold that against them......can we (?)
Where was Cool Man Cool?
Sailing gbu
Good analysis. In addition Marblehead failed to hail, and therefore it could be argued that she failed to maintain a watch in addition to to your points.
The boat on starboard changed course, right into the path of the port-tack boat. Prior to that, the port tack boat was keeping clear. The course change makes the starboard tack boat responsible for the damage that happened next. I'm glad someone got it on video.
Port tack yacht required to keep clear of yacht on starboard and appears not to have. Starboard tack yacht failed to avoid collision. Starboard tack yacht also altered course and appeared not to give port tack yacht room to avoid collision. If all true, both should be disqualified.
Clear case of Starboard tack has right of way. Port tack boat immediately retired, showing he knew.
People blaming the helmsman of the S tack boat for not managing to avoid the collision by reversing his helm once his bow had cleared the others transom are missing that he was actually trying to tack away. Meanwhile, the give way vessel appeared to do nothing to try to kick her stern to port, which might have helped.
No matter how you parse it, there is no doubt that responsibility for the collision rests squarely with the Port tack vessel.
During races, whenever close hauled on starboard tack, I would detail one of my crew to keep a continuous lookout under the Genoa for boats crossing.
R12 applies in the first instance as does R17 a i. It should be noted the the port tack vessel failed in all of her duties at all times. The vessel on stbd turned briefly to starboard as R17 a ii came into effect. The vessel for some unknown reason reversed the minor alteration and recreated the original situation. Had good seamanship been applied a 360 turn to starboard would have been the appropriate manoeuvre at that point.
However, having reverted to the original situation and the distance further reduced, R17 b came into effect. The turn to port was feasible but badly conducted as it was too full a turn.
So, in brief the port tack yacht was at fault and the Stbd tack yacht made poor decisions late and then poor helmsmanship caused a collision.
Which rule book are you working with? In the latest version of the Racing Rules of Sailing both R12 and R17 deals with boats on the same tack???
@@MrGentlebutfirm 2108 version. R12 & 17 remain unchanged in the 7th Edition 2021. There are no Racing Rules in Colregs and R17 does not deal with sailing vessels.
@@csjrogerson2377
The Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) governs the sport of sailboat and sailboard racing. It is revised and published every four years by World Sailing. The current edition is the RRS 2021-2024.
Rule 12: ON THE SAME TACK, NOT OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and not overlapped, a boat clear
astern shall keep clear of a boat clear ahead.
Rule 17: ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull
lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail
above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and
overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails
astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap
begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.
YOU WROTE THIS NONSENSE: "R12 applies in the first instance as does R17 a i."
@@MrGentlebutfirm I was only talking about COLREGS NOT RRS which are not mandatory. I can run a race without using RRS if I want to. My PO was and is correct.
@@csjrogerson2377 So Mister ROgersOn... What was hard to understand, when I asked you "Which rule book are you working with?", and further helped out by "In the latest version of the Racing Rules of Sailing both R12 and R17 deals with boats on the same tack???" ... Go back and see you disappointing answer... You should have answered the bloody question with "I am using COLREGS". Then I could say... "Duh, It's a regatta - sure you should start hammering away using COLREGS???" AND YOU ARE TOTALLY IRRELEVANT... www.regattanetwork.com/clubmgmt/regatta_uploads/28039/SAILINGINSTRUCTIONS2024CRFinalMay23.pdf
The Internet potential is lost with people like you that does not listen and think, and just "do it for themselves.." "My PO was and is correct" my a..
The stbd boat didn't give the port tack boat any possibilty to avoid the stbd tack boat after changing their course. The rules require a right of way boat to give the other boat time to take evasive manouvers in a seamanship manner, this didn't happen here. The stbd boat could also have avoided the collision if it hadn't made that large a evasive manouver, or at least caused much less damage.
The RRS Racing Rules of Sailing do not state that a starboard boat has to give a port boat time to respond! RRS do however state that a collision should be avoided in which starboard failed miserably.
RRS state that a port boat shall avoid a starboard tack boat. In this case they are obviously cruisers having a bit of fun and the port Tacker doesn't have any idea that a starboard boat is approaching. Even though they are equally inept sailors, the port boat is totally at fault.
that's crazy 🤭love the music
@Sailing with Scott, what was the ruling by the race committee?
None. No protest. Tomol retired immediately.
The boat on the left is the stand on boat because it is on a starboard tack. The boat on port tack should keep clear. The stand on boat did change course which confuses the issue. Saying that the port tack boat should have kept well clear. There maybe issues to do with racing I have no clue about.
Starboard tack boat clearly rounded up toward the port tack boat. One cannot claim right of way when other boats don’t know your course! And, of course, the overarching rule - avoid collision at all cost. A simple protest would have been a lot less costly for everyone.
The protest committee probably split the difference even though the starboard tacker was the erratic one.
I think the stbd tack boat got rounded up by weather helm, not a delibrate course change. port tack expected he was clear and stb tack would have passed behind him.
Major oversteering by stbd boat. They were the right of way boat but still could have avoided the collision if they panicked a bit less.
That's so insane!
They turned more than thy had to. The port tracker also turned. Than the sterns collided. Happens al the time. Over reacting can undo some or all of the good of reacting.
That's crazy!!
Just a point of interest: the give way boat remains such until it becomes clear that he can longer keep clear. Then the right of way boat becomes the give way bot and it is his responsibility to keep clear and avoid the collision.
In this case, pretty crap course and pretty poor sailing imho😅
Stbd tack boat sailed into port tack vessel. Avoid collision rule overrides standard right of way
Stand by to TACK (not gybe).......
Each skipper has the responsibility to make EVERY EFFORT to avoid a collision...In this case boat on starboard tack turns into vessel on port tack. This was a case of playing chicken.
Note no sounding device was heard.
@@petertaylor8922
Moving the stern of the boat through the wind first is a gybe.
Stand by to gybe was the correct call. That was a gybe he then performed.
Actually, the r-o-w vessel has a duty to maintain her course, only taking action when it is clear she has no other alternative. This rule is to avoid situations in which both ships take action in the same direction, making matters worse.
I have never heard a sound signal used during racing. A loud shout of “Starboard!” Is generally used if you think they haven’t seen you; to be clear, the absence of hail does not absolve the give-way vessel, at all.
Pretty clear that port did not keep clear despite several options to do so. As always, some responsibility will be given to the starboard boat for failing to avoid a collision. Hopefully lots of yelling of starboard was occurring prior to the last second which is so important if port boat is not aware of the other boat.
Port boat at fault for not keeping clear of starboard.
easily avoided.
STARBOARD
Gybe ?????? tack !
When the stern of the boat moves through the wind before the bow, it’s a gybe.
Don't waste my time.
Starboard is wrong because starboard gives way to port side
Racers. Meh.